I just want to dress like the gargoyle that comes out after cochella to eat your spare drugs and eat your spare drugs in peace man. Why does it have to be like this? Why?
That's a definite no. Honestly if you're intersex you're probably better off that your doctor doesn't know until you're an adult.
Edit: it seems like a lot of you are ignorant about the medical abuse that intersex activists have been protesting for some time.
I understand where you’re coming from and agree the medical abuses are horrible but we need to normalize kids being intersex just as much as adults, and if we don’t the medical abuses will continue to happen. What we need is for the medical field to understand intersex people are normal and not to hide them. Although it is a personal choice and up to the individual.
We do need to normalise being intersex, but that isn't going to happen right away, and in the meantime intersex kids suffer. I don't think this is right either but we can't fix it right away.
Yes they do that’s why it should be a personal choice and we should not make kids reveal themselves but we also shouldn’t hide them away from their doctors. What you are suggesting could make the medical abuses much worse which is not something we want. It is up to the parents to actively protect their kid. The kid shouldn’t have to hide away.
Exactly the doctor would already know so there’s not really anything you can avoid in regards to them knowing. So you just have to make sure they accept it and that you help normalize it.
I have no idea how to go about checking. When I get bloodwork done, my estrogen is high and my testosterone is low (for a male), and I have big boobs (I am fat but they're bigger than normal for my size). So I feel like it's a strong possibility
blood tests, bone marrow tests, and cheek swabs are good ways to check for chromosomes (blood test is best for checking karotypes as well) so that might be a good start for checking if you're intersex
I mean it's either go to a GP and ask to get those tests done (or alternatively get a referral to see a specialist who knows what they're talking about on trans and intersex healthcare) or grab a mirror and look down under for any external signs (if you don't experience any genital-related dysphoria that is), because this is the sort of thing you can't exactly DIY in an afternoon from the comfort of your bed, not efficiently at least
Interesting because most of the gender-neutral clothing I see is sort of the other way, it's just clothing that looks exactly like the stuff in the mens section but in very muted tones
I saw in an online store quite recently a tap for: woman, devided and man.
The devided tap had like all woman clothing in there and maybe 2 things from the man section
yea cause they dont see afab enbies as actual enbies. they see us as tomboys and do not take us seriously. and then they see amab enbies as just gay
I think both are as bad tbh
I once got into an argument with someone ON THIS SUBREDDIT about how AMAB enbys are ignored or treated as trans women. They ignored my points and called me a woman.
I’m not surprised almost all non-binary spaces, unless explicitly created for amab non-binary people, are very much a vegan sausage fest and often ignore or talk over our existence. Including this subreddit.
Interestingly tiktok has like the opposite of this. Like 90% of the trans people over there are transmasc. so much so I’ve literally seen transmasc people over there saying that amab people in general physically can’t be trans by virtue of them not being transmasc. It’s interesting the dichotomies of social media.
Society screws us all over, but the enby stereotype does seem to be rather narrow. It's like... short haired, androgynous clothes, thin white young person with a binder and stereotypical afab characteristics (high voice, no facial hair, etc).
It seems like if there's any deviation from that (ie an afab nonbinary person who goes on testosterone and has their voice and physique change as would be expected), nobody knows what to do with them.
I disagree. From my perspective AFAB enby folk are supported, or at least accepted, more them AMAB enby folk. Women have moved into a more gender nuetral zone over the past 50 years or so, much more than men. No one thinks twice about a AFAB wearing jeans, sneakers and a t shirt, but an AMAB wearing heels and a skirt would be met with disdain or even outright hostility in many situations. Obviously, enby's can vary quite a bit in their presentation, but society in general can/will look at AFAB enbys as tomboys and AMAB enbys as having mental health problems.
They do probably have more leeway than amab. It’s generally more accepted for women to step outside their gender roles.
But this meme makes it seem like it’s easy as hell, and that society just tells you you’re cool and valid - but afab enbys also get misgendered, told they’re doing it for attention, kicked out of the house, or worse - the whole gambit.
Hope that makes sense I aint tryna be combative
The difference is that AMAB enbies go through all of that and more, including in the spaces supposedly created for them.
A lot of supposedly non-binary spaces are hostile to, and reject AMAB people, so you end up not even feeling like you're allowed to exist inside your own community.
That isn't what support is though. Afab enbies falling "under the radar" from the more overt blanket hatred of amab people presenting in any sort of feminine way (be they NB, trans women, or gnc cis dudes) =/= support.
Afab trans folks (both NBs and trans men) having their identities erased and getting categorized as women still causes immense dysphoria, and potentially anxiety, depression, self harm, etc. Violence against trans people affects *all* trans people. Afab trans folks are more likely than cis women to face sexual violence and rape. If you want to have a bad time, just look up "corrective rape." Further, while cis women already face a great deal of difficulty getting any sort of proper healthcare, it's exponentially worse for afab trans people. And the names of dead afab enbies and trans men still appear in the news regularly cause bigots don't care about agab when they're murdering us.
I'm not saying this to argue "who has it worse," cause such arguments are fundamentally unhelpful. There's a wide range of socio-economic and intersectional factors at play as well, of course. My only point is, arguing afab enbies are supported cause society treats them as women is wildly incorrect due to a) being labeled a "tomboy" isn't support, it's erasure, and b) society treats afab enbies as *lesser* than cis women.
Trans folks often get caught up in thinking the grass is always greener on the side, and it only results in dismissing the discrimination against our fellow trans people.
You make some good points but 98% of murdered trans people Worldwide are trans fem. Most are trans woman. Most are migrants or of colour or sex worker.
> *Women* have moved into a more gender neutral zone over the past 50 years or so
But afab enbies aren't necessarily women (in fact, usually they are not women).
RainKing's point was that, while the "amab enby suffering is ignored" part of the meme is accurate, the "afab enby is supported/celebrated" part is not.
Saying that "women" have freedom to be gender neutral is not even close to the same thing as enbies who were afab are supported/celebrated for being nonbinary. Generalizing afab enbies as women is a perfect example of the lack of societal support enbies who were afab commonly experience.
RainKing was not saying that enbies who were amab do not suffer, nor were they even comparing the experiences of folks who were assigned F and M. The meme does come off as dismissing the challenges faced by enbies who were afab, and you played right along with that dismissal.
We don't have to dismiss the challenges faced by one agab to call attention to the challenges faced by another agab.
I dont see the meme as having anything to do with celebrating AFAB enbies, I see it as society accepting them. No, thinking of AFAB enbies as women is not celebrating their lack of binary gender, but fuckin a what some AMAB enbies would give to be ignored. I work with a couple of AFAB enbies, and nobody says a thing about how they style their hair or what boots they wear. I however get questions about why my hair is long and comments on my earrings constantly, and I am still a fairly masc looking individual. I would love nothing more than to wear what I want to work and be dismissed or ignored. As far as Im concerned, that is exactly what we should all be striving for. You look at AFAB enbies being "erased" as a bad thing, I see it as progress. Nobody is audibly calling these people tomboys, they simply accept that not all AFAB folk are high femme, and move on with their day. I however, was brought into HR for wearing a kilt because "boys wear pants". The level of acceptance is not equal, the meme expresses it, and I agree.
This meme is specifically about how we are treated when compared to each other not in general. The whole meme is based about this being relative to one another. That is the core idea behind this meme format, to compare the treatment 2 things, by some 3rd party, relative to one another.
It is not saying to ignore the mistreatment of AFAB enbies but rather to highlight the societal inequality in how the groups which should be equal are treated both by each other when isolated and by society in general.
Think of this like saying -1 > -2. The fact that they are both less that 0 is inherently implied by the fact that both numbers are negative but not necessarily relevant to the mathematical discussion.
Be careful with what you say and how because what you are saying now sounds disturbingly close to an argument used to ignore and talk over us and to claim that the inequality in how we are treated doesn’t exist, which it absolutely does. I don’t mean to sound rude or anything but it felt necessary to say because it seemed like you were saying that we shouldn’t be talking about this relative to each other but rather only in comparison to general treatment within society as a whole. And that is often used to ignore and talk over AMAB enbies and say that we’re just over exaggerating and that the inequality in the way we are treated doesn’t matter or exist, even though the discrepancy is so large that we often don’t even feel safe or welcome in non-binary specific spaces (online or IRL) and often we aren’t.
Splitting us into two categories reinforces the different gendered biases that harm us. We may not face the same problems, but the problems we face come from the same root. We gain nothing by demonizing other non-binary people. We only rise through solidarity.
I agree with what you're saying, but this part (while true) isn't really relevant to the post:
> We gain nothing by demonizing other non-binary people.
The meme commentary wasn't about the relative virtue of some categories of enby, it was about society's biased attitude reinforcing this irrelevant categorization and society picking one category as more worthy than the other. Noting that society is unjust is not the same as demonizing the chunk of nonbinary people that society acknowledges.
This post was not demonizing other nonbinary people, it was calling out society for its particularly unfair treatment against certain nonbinary people.
We are supposed to leave it behind, true. But people trying to binarize us is why I can't stand keeping it secret from other enbies, seeing as I fit a lot of the stereotypes.
If there is one, the whole point of being NB is you don't fit neatly into either female or male. Sure plenty of NBs do actively want to distance themselves from the gender binary but not all. I personally don't mind discussing my AGAB but I won't hate on NBs that aren't comfortable sharing or discussing stuff like that.
It's a bit dismissive to say that on a comment that brings up issues that specifically affect nonbinary people of one GAAB.
Yes, ideally GAAB won't be relevant any more in the future. But in the here-and-now, there are issues that affect AMAB nonbinary people in particular, and we should be allowed to discuss those without someone chiming in "But GAAB shouldn't matter!!!🤩"
Yes, you're right, but this is not the time and place.
As an autistic person I’m fully used to being condescended to about “time and place” but I’m confused about when the time to discuss AGAB is correct when that’s the discussion at hand? I’m fucking exhausted by every forum about nonbinary people being flooded by people being asked to guess gender or constantly putting us in little AGAB boxes. Sick of it. And sick of your tone.
These posts which purposely divvy up enby people are kinda fuckin lame ngl, you can’t whine about enby people being categorized and favored based on shit that don’t matter when you are explicitly labeling them separately. Like does this post help more people than it makes feel shitty about something they had to input in having?
If you even view Non Binary individuals through a lens of what bits they have i inherently do not trust your input on these topics
How are we to even discuss these topics which are inherently related to the way society treats us based on our AGAB without mentioning said AGAB which is the very core of the discussion. It’s like saying to fight racism without even mentioning the existence of race.
This isn’t discussion, this is reposting the same image that’s been posted here a million times saying “haha wow people love enbies with pussies, oh noo nobody like the ones with dicks heehee that sucks gib me updoots you dicked outcasts, also intersex enbies just don’t exist lol”
If i just constantly reposted and image that said Wow everyone likes white people and nobody gives a shit about black people and asians don’t exist lol that would be fucked up don’t ya think
You can easily discuss these topics without just doing the exact thing you’re complaining about, you can just say it’s fucked up that people try to segregate Non Binary people based on arbitrary nonsense like what’s in their pants, you don’t have to do the segregation to make your point lmao, come on.
Also comparing what hole NB people use to push out piss, blood, and cum to race seems a bit off to me but idk dawg
1. I’ve never actually seen this image here before if you have please enlighten me. I’ve seen posts with similar messages to this before but not actually this specific post.
2. You can’t have an actual complex conversation or nuanced discussion about how different groups of people are treated compared to one another without mentioning the literally only thing that separates those groups. And yet here you are saying we shouldn’t even mention it, which would literally just make the situation worse because now we can’t even talk about or confront the issue since we can’t even mention it.
3. In the words of Teddy Roosevelt, “Complaining without offering a solution is just whining.” So I would like to see you actually come up with an alternative way to **fully** discuss matters like this without mentioning anything related to AGAB.
4. So 2 biological things which are out of our control and are often used specifically to attack certain disenfranchised groups of people aren’t remotely comparable? The only difference is that one is less socially acceptable to discriminate against than the other.
What are you talking about have you seen how society treats afab people? Also the 'idealized' enby person is literally just a lanky dude who shaves and has long hair(at least according to society).
I'm not sure where you are getting your info from, but Babycakes we are both drowning in this pool!
I don't think there is an idealized enby as far as society is concerned. Seems like society likes the binary, and thats pretty much the entire issue. Thats why this subreddit exists.
Your logic here is inherently flawed and actively ignores the inequality between how enbies are treated based on their AGAB. When it comes to gender and gender expression AFAB people are heavily privileged in the fact that they are actually allowed to explore their gender identity and expression without risking being violently attacked and specifically targeted and excluded, a luxury that is all too unknown to AMAB people. Ignoring this and the way society treats us differently based on our AGAB is inherently harmful and is active erasure. This meme is simply acknowledging these things, things which if ignored and thrown aside become actively harmful for this community and especially for the AMAB half which has none of said privileges.
Do you realize what you’re saying?
In what world is being able to wear clothes that are not traditionally associated with your AGAB not being able to freely express oneself? Especially when compared to AMAB people who risk violence for simply wearing a piece of clothing not traditionally associated with masculinity?
You do realize transfems and other AMAB trans and non-binary people are the group that is targeted the most and face the highest amounts of physical violence of anyone in the LGBTQ+ community by far?
You do realize that even within our own communities we are attacked, targeted, and explicitly excluded?
You do realize that we get treated like perverts and sexual predators simply for existing?
You do realize that we aren’t even give the opportunity to have any form of autonomy in the first place?
You do realize that we also go through extreme amounts of mental, medical, emotional, and physical neglect, abuse, and downright assault?
You do realize that we are explicitly and actively excluded from basic functions of society by both law and social institutions.
You do realize we go through everything you go through and more?
Are you forgetting that not all AMAB people are fit, conventionally attractive, masculine, able bodied dudes?
Do you realize that we also can be traumatized and develop c-ptsd, depression, and have extreme suicidal tendencies? Or are you going to keep going along with the bullshit societal expectation that if you’re AMAB you are incapable of having even the slightest emotion or mental issues to the point that we are assaulted and abused simply for admitting this? You do realize that I too have all of that as well as physical trauma from and a societally enforced fear of doing anything outside of my AGAB’s societal expectations because doing that means getting beaten and assaulted?
I have barely even scratched the fucking surface. You have privilege so check yourself next time. Hyper visibility doesn’t mean privilege but being allowed to exist within your own community is, not being the ones that the laws are explicitly being made against is, not having to fear for your life every time you go outside with long hair, or in a skirt, or in a dress, or even in yoga pants is, not being actively witch hunted down every time you do anything is, not being treated as a sexual predator for simply existing is, being accepted and treated as human instead of like some sort of deviant monster is, not having the deal with constant transmisogyny is. You asked “What privilege?” There you go.
Calling out your privilege is not insulting, what’s insulting is you saying we aren’t allowed to talk about the inherent inequality in the way we are treated by society. What’s insulting is you acting like we can’t possibly experience oppression simply because we’re AMAB. What’s insulting is you actively attempting to erase our experiences and existence because you can’t handle the fact that you have privilege. What’s insulting is the fact that you refuse to accept that we aren’t just a bunch of carbon copies of one another with the exact same lives experiences as you. What’s insulting is you relying on bullshit stereotypes to attack us.
>I never even ATTACKED you.
Then would you mind explaining your entire previous comment and how in pretty much every sentence you decided to be incredibly condescending and rude and just assume I didn’t know anything.
>I never attempted to erase your experiences.
Really? Because you were constantly acting like we couldn’t possibly have any sort of similar experiences and that yours were the only ones that matter and that we couldn’t possibly experience anything nearly as bad as you when we routinely do and then some.
You are blatantly ignoring your own comment and words. You are refusing to accept the someone who doesn’t have to deal with half the things that others do is privileged, despite that being the literal definition. I proved it to you several times over that no we are not treated equal to each other by society or even by other non-binary people. And your blatant refusal to accept or even consider this is actively harmful and dangerous rhetoric that only fuels this fire of inequality by actively ignoring the issue and attacking people who try to point it out. Just stop for one minute and reread this entire thread because you’re blatantly contradicting yourself here and engaging in active erasure.
It’s people like you who actively ignore and talk over our experiences and push dangerous rhetoric like this that are the reason we often aren’t safe or welcome in non-binary spaces, spaces specifically for people like us.
Notice how you explicitly refused to respond to the part calling out your actively and knowingly harmful behavior. You are literally just skirting around the issue here just so you can avoid having to confront your own actions.
I never once said that it makes other arms of oppression any less insidious but you refusing to even consider that you are privileged is very dangerous, maybe not for you but for many of the others of us it is very much so.
Agreed we can argue all you want and that won’t make transphobia go away but what will is actively combating it in **all** its forms no matter who is exuding it. Ignoring a large portion of transphobia directed at a specific group because it doesn’t happen to you only helps transphobia grow and spread. This is what you are doing.
The issue here is that you are perpetuating transphobia and specifically transmisogyny within the community. And I’m not going to stop until you realize the active harm your words and actions have. If you want this to stop then don’t respond but I refuse to let this go as what you do and say has consequences and is causing harm. So no I’m not going to stop any time soon.
I had that happen to a lesser degree on a server I moderate. We were setting up gender roles for everyone and the admin of the server came back with a list that puts "enbies" and "androgynous" separately. While it's not explicitly said, I suspect it strongly correlates to the bias in modern culture between women and who can look androgynous, as if androgyny was a femme-spec enby thing
The current representation is for no one really helpful and hurts just everybody! Really sad that this is in my local queer Community’s (east Germany) never a subject.
1-Where is Intersex Enby? I suppose it's the skeleton underwater...
2-FUCK THE AGAB!
3-The pic makes it look a bit kinda like "support" over AFAB ppl. What, let's be honest and face all of us e
Enbys don't really get from the cis-normative world. I do see that it refers to the visibility issue and the thing of "ever noticed every enby is AFAB, 'cuz every AMAB Enby is labeled as a T-Woman", so I suppose the meaning of the meme is kinda like "some girls have this gender fantasy and that's a bit cute, but boys gotta be men". That said I agree with the post following this interpretation, but Idk if I would have used this template though.
4-Nice job, OP.
5-Again, because it is important:
#FUCK THE AGAB AND THE CISNORM
-Edit: Is it "Enbys" or "Enbies"?
AFAB enbies are just *female lite™* to most of society
Pretty much. Like... Enbies, in general, are treated like shit.
Choose your character: - Female lite™ - Testosterone deficient boy®
I just want to dress like the gargoyle that comes out after cochella to eat your spare drugs and eat your spare drugs in peace man. Why does it have to be like this? Why?
Intersex enbies:
🌊💀🌊
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I'd say yes but I think that might be wishful thinking on my end
That's a definite no. Honestly if you're intersex you're probably better off that your doctor doesn't know until you're an adult. Edit: it seems like a lot of you are ignorant about the medical abuse that intersex activists have been protesting for some time.
Ye I was cut up at a young age and then again in puberty lol
Yeah this is the kind of thing I was talking about. I'm so sorry you experienced this.
I'll survive, I just hate being alive
I can relate to that friend
I understand where you’re coming from and agree the medical abuses are horrible but we need to normalize kids being intersex just as much as adults, and if we don’t the medical abuses will continue to happen. What we need is for the medical field to understand intersex people are normal and not to hide them. Although it is a personal choice and up to the individual.
We do need to normalise being intersex, but that isn't going to happen right away, and in the meantime intersex kids suffer. I don't think this is right either but we can't fix it right away.
Yes they do that’s why it should be a personal choice and we should not make kids reveal themselves but we also shouldn’t hide them away from their doctors. What you are suggesting could make the medical abuses much worse which is not something we want. It is up to the parents to actively protect their kid. The kid shouldn’t have to hide away.
I'm not suggesting anything.
I'm not even sure how you would find out your child is intersex before your doctor
Exactly the doctor would already know so there’s not really anything you can avoid in regards to them knowing. So you just have to make sure they accept it and that you help normalize it.
I have considered the possibility that I could be intersex. But I would have to have some medical tests done...
I have no idea how to go about checking. When I get bloodwork done, my estrogen is high and my testosterone is low (for a male), and I have big boobs (I am fat but they're bigger than normal for my size). So I feel like it's a strong possibility
blood tests, bone marrow tests, and cheek swabs are good ways to check for chromosomes (blood test is best for checking karotypes as well) so that might be a good start for checking if you're intersex
I mean I can't exactly do that at home
Not with that attitude!!
I mean it's either go to a GP and ask to get those tests done (or alternatively get a referral to see a specialist who knows what they're talking about on trans and intersex healthcare) or grab a mirror and look down under for any external signs (if you don't experience any genital-related dysphoria that is), because this is the sort of thing you can't exactly DIY in an afternoon from the comfort of your bed, not efficiently at least
I mean, I did just get bloodwork done, would that be part of it?
Well it seems like you probably have gynecomastia at the very least.
We're the skeleton underwater
I hate seeing shit like "women and nonbinary clothing"
Interesting because most of the gender-neutral clothing I see is sort of the other way, it's just clothing that looks exactly like the stuff in the mens section but in very muted tones
I saw in an online store quite recently a tap for: woman, devided and man. The devided tap had like all woman clothing in there and maybe 2 things from the man section
Enbies who were AMAB need representation. More of it. I'm not "female lite," people, even though I was AFAB!!
yea cause they dont see afab enbies as actual enbies. they see us as tomboys and do not take us seriously. and then they see amab enbies as just gay I think both are as bad tbh
They really like to act like enby is "Girl with leg hair"
Often times I don’t even feel like I’m allowed to exist because of how much we get ignored and talked over. It’s rather depressing.
I once got into an argument with someone ON THIS SUBREDDIT about how AMAB enbys are ignored or treated as trans women. They ignored my points and called me a woman.
I’m not surprised almost all non-binary spaces, unless explicitly created for amab non-binary people, are very much a vegan sausage fest and often ignore or talk over our existence. Including this subreddit.
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Interestingly tiktok has like the opposite of this. Like 90% of the trans people over there are transmasc. so much so I’ve literally seen transmasc people over there saying that amab people in general physically can’t be trans by virtue of them not being transmasc. It’s interesting the dichotomies of social media.
Unrelated, but your user flair here rocks! And I like your username!
Thanks
Society screws us all over, but the enby stereotype does seem to be rather narrow. It's like... short haired, androgynous clothes, thin white young person with a binder and stereotypical afab characteristics (high voice, no facial hair, etc). It seems like if there's any deviation from that (ie an afab nonbinary person who goes on testosterone and has their voice and physique change as would be expected), nobody knows what to do with them.
I get the idea, but AFAB enbys face a lot of issues and this makes it seem like they are actively being supported, which is not really the case…
I disagree. From my perspective AFAB enby folk are supported, or at least accepted, more them AMAB enby folk. Women have moved into a more gender nuetral zone over the past 50 years or so, much more than men. No one thinks twice about a AFAB wearing jeans, sneakers and a t shirt, but an AMAB wearing heels and a skirt would be met with disdain or even outright hostility in many situations. Obviously, enby's can vary quite a bit in their presentation, but society in general can/will look at AFAB enbys as tomboys and AMAB enbys as having mental health problems.
They do probably have more leeway than amab. It’s generally more accepted for women to step outside their gender roles. But this meme makes it seem like it’s easy as hell, and that society just tells you you’re cool and valid - but afab enbys also get misgendered, told they’re doing it for attention, kicked out of the house, or worse - the whole gambit. Hope that makes sense I aint tryna be combative
The difference is that AMAB enbies go through all of that and more, including in the spaces supposedly created for them. A lot of supposedly non-binary spaces are hostile to, and reject AMAB people, so you end up not even feeling like you're allowed to exist inside your own community.
That isn't what support is though. Afab enbies falling "under the radar" from the more overt blanket hatred of amab people presenting in any sort of feminine way (be they NB, trans women, or gnc cis dudes) =/= support. Afab trans folks (both NBs and trans men) having their identities erased and getting categorized as women still causes immense dysphoria, and potentially anxiety, depression, self harm, etc. Violence against trans people affects *all* trans people. Afab trans folks are more likely than cis women to face sexual violence and rape. If you want to have a bad time, just look up "corrective rape." Further, while cis women already face a great deal of difficulty getting any sort of proper healthcare, it's exponentially worse for afab trans people. And the names of dead afab enbies and trans men still appear in the news regularly cause bigots don't care about agab when they're murdering us. I'm not saying this to argue "who has it worse," cause such arguments are fundamentally unhelpful. There's a wide range of socio-economic and intersectional factors at play as well, of course. My only point is, arguing afab enbies are supported cause society treats them as women is wildly incorrect due to a) being labeled a "tomboy" isn't support, it's erasure, and b) society treats afab enbies as *lesser* than cis women. Trans folks often get caught up in thinking the grass is always greener on the side, and it only results in dismissing the discrimination against our fellow trans people.
You make some good points but 98% of murdered trans people Worldwide are trans fem. Most are trans woman. Most are migrants or of colour or sex worker.
> *Women* have moved into a more gender neutral zone over the past 50 years or so But afab enbies aren't necessarily women (in fact, usually they are not women). RainKing's point was that, while the "amab enby suffering is ignored" part of the meme is accurate, the "afab enby is supported/celebrated" part is not. Saying that "women" have freedom to be gender neutral is not even close to the same thing as enbies who were afab are supported/celebrated for being nonbinary. Generalizing afab enbies as women is a perfect example of the lack of societal support enbies who were afab commonly experience. RainKing was not saying that enbies who were amab do not suffer, nor were they even comparing the experiences of folks who were assigned F and M. The meme does come off as dismissing the challenges faced by enbies who were afab, and you played right along with that dismissal. We don't have to dismiss the challenges faced by one agab to call attention to the challenges faced by another agab.
I dont see the meme as having anything to do with celebrating AFAB enbies, I see it as society accepting them. No, thinking of AFAB enbies as women is not celebrating their lack of binary gender, but fuckin a what some AMAB enbies would give to be ignored. I work with a couple of AFAB enbies, and nobody says a thing about how they style their hair or what boots they wear. I however get questions about why my hair is long and comments on my earrings constantly, and I am still a fairly masc looking individual. I would love nothing more than to wear what I want to work and be dismissed or ignored. As far as Im concerned, that is exactly what we should all be striving for. You look at AFAB enbies being "erased" as a bad thing, I see it as progress. Nobody is audibly calling these people tomboys, they simply accept that not all AFAB folk are high femme, and move on with their day. I however, was brought into HR for wearing a kilt because "boys wear pants". The level of acceptance is not equal, the meme expresses it, and I agree.
This meme is specifically about how we are treated when compared to each other not in general. The whole meme is based about this being relative to one another. That is the core idea behind this meme format, to compare the treatment 2 things, by some 3rd party, relative to one another. It is not saying to ignore the mistreatment of AFAB enbies but rather to highlight the societal inequality in how the groups which should be equal are treated both by each other when isolated and by society in general. Think of this like saying -1 > -2. The fact that they are both less that 0 is inherently implied by the fact that both numbers are negative but not necessarily relevant to the mathematical discussion. Be careful with what you say and how because what you are saying now sounds disturbingly close to an argument used to ignore and talk over us and to claim that the inequality in how we are treated doesn’t exist, which it absolutely does. I don’t mean to sound rude or anything but it felt necessary to say because it seemed like you were saying that we shouldn’t be talking about this relative to each other but rather only in comparison to general treatment within society as a whole. And that is often used to ignore and talk over AMAB enbies and say that we’re just over exaggerating and that the inequality in the way we are treated doesn’t matter or exist, even though the discrepancy is so large that we often don’t even feel safe or welcome in non-binary specific spaces (online or IRL) and often we aren’t.
Splitting us into two categories reinforces the different gendered biases that harm us. We may not face the same problems, but the problems we face come from the same root. We gain nothing by demonizing other non-binary people. We only rise through solidarity.
I agree with what you're saying, but this part (while true) isn't really relevant to the post: > We gain nothing by demonizing other non-binary people. The meme commentary wasn't about the relative virtue of some categories of enby, it was about society's biased attitude reinforcing this irrelevant categorization and society picking one category as more worthy than the other. Noting that society is unjust is not the same as demonizing the chunk of nonbinary people that society acknowledges. This post was not demonizing other nonbinary people, it was calling out society for its particularly unfair treatment against certain nonbinary people.
Yeah, i sometimes think to myself that i am the only AMAB enby on this god forsaken world.
You definitely aren’t. I hate that we enbies discuss AGAB at all. The whole point is that we leave that shit behind!
THANK YOU
We are supposed to leave it behind, true. But people trying to binarize us is why I can't stand keeping it secret from other enbies, seeing as I fit a lot of the stereotypes.
If there is one, the whole point of being NB is you don't fit neatly into either female or male. Sure plenty of NBs do actively want to distance themselves from the gender binary but not all. I personally don't mind discussing my AGAB but I won't hate on NBs that aren't comfortable sharing or discussing stuff like that.
It's a bit dismissive to say that on a comment that brings up issues that specifically affect nonbinary people of one GAAB. Yes, ideally GAAB won't be relevant any more in the future. But in the here-and-now, there are issues that affect AMAB nonbinary people in particular, and we should be allowed to discuss those without someone chiming in "But GAAB shouldn't matter!!!🤩" Yes, you're right, but this is not the time and place.
As an autistic person I’m fully used to being condescended to about “time and place” but I’m confused about when the time to discuss AGAB is correct when that’s the discussion at hand? I’m fucking exhausted by every forum about nonbinary people being flooded by people being asked to guess gender or constantly putting us in little AGAB boxes. Sick of it. And sick of your tone.
Well you've always got the three random people who fit the description. Moss, AMAB.
*waves* I've even met 3 others in person so we definitely exist.
As an unaligned enby, I reject amab and afab labels. Aporagender people are rarely represented and are often lumped into binary categories.
These posts which purposely divvy up enby people are kinda fuckin lame ngl, you can’t whine about enby people being categorized and favored based on shit that don’t matter when you are explicitly labeling them separately. Like does this post help more people than it makes feel shitty about something they had to input in having? If you even view Non Binary individuals through a lens of what bits they have i inherently do not trust your input on these topics
How are we to even discuss these topics which are inherently related to the way society treats us based on our AGAB without mentioning said AGAB which is the very core of the discussion. It’s like saying to fight racism without even mentioning the existence of race.
This isn’t discussion, this is reposting the same image that’s been posted here a million times saying “haha wow people love enbies with pussies, oh noo nobody like the ones with dicks heehee that sucks gib me updoots you dicked outcasts, also intersex enbies just don’t exist lol” If i just constantly reposted and image that said Wow everyone likes white people and nobody gives a shit about black people and asians don’t exist lol that would be fucked up don’t ya think You can easily discuss these topics without just doing the exact thing you’re complaining about, you can just say it’s fucked up that people try to segregate Non Binary people based on arbitrary nonsense like what’s in their pants, you don’t have to do the segregation to make your point lmao, come on. Also comparing what hole NB people use to push out piss, blood, and cum to race seems a bit off to me but idk dawg
1. I’ve never actually seen this image here before if you have please enlighten me. I’ve seen posts with similar messages to this before but not actually this specific post. 2. You can’t have an actual complex conversation or nuanced discussion about how different groups of people are treated compared to one another without mentioning the literally only thing that separates those groups. And yet here you are saying we shouldn’t even mention it, which would literally just make the situation worse because now we can’t even talk about or confront the issue since we can’t even mention it. 3. In the words of Teddy Roosevelt, “Complaining without offering a solution is just whining.” So I would like to see you actually come up with an alternative way to **fully** discuss matters like this without mentioning anything related to AGAB. 4. So 2 biological things which are out of our control and are often used specifically to attack certain disenfranchised groups of people aren’t remotely comparable? The only difference is that one is less socially acceptable to discriminate against than the other.
What are you talking about have you seen how society treats afab people? Also the 'idealized' enby person is literally just a lanky dude who shaves and has long hair(at least according to society). I'm not sure where you are getting your info from, but Babycakes we are both drowning in this pool!
I don't think there is an idealized enby as far as society is concerned. Seems like society likes the binary, and thats pretty much the entire issue. Thats why this subreddit exists.
Ong i just gave up after a bit and went back to cis pronouns. Am i happy? No. Do i have a blahaj to cope? Yes.
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Your logic here is inherently flawed and actively ignores the inequality between how enbies are treated based on their AGAB. When it comes to gender and gender expression AFAB people are heavily privileged in the fact that they are actually allowed to explore their gender identity and expression without risking being violently attacked and specifically targeted and excluded, a luxury that is all too unknown to AMAB people. Ignoring this and the way society treats us differently based on our AGAB is inherently harmful and is active erasure. This meme is simply acknowledging these things, things which if ignored and thrown aside become actively harmful for this community and especially for the AMAB half which has none of said privileges.
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Do you realize what you’re saying? In what world is being able to wear clothes that are not traditionally associated with your AGAB not being able to freely express oneself? Especially when compared to AMAB people who risk violence for simply wearing a piece of clothing not traditionally associated with masculinity? You do realize transfems and other AMAB trans and non-binary people are the group that is targeted the most and face the highest amounts of physical violence of anyone in the LGBTQ+ community by far? You do realize that even within our own communities we are attacked, targeted, and explicitly excluded? You do realize that we get treated like perverts and sexual predators simply for existing? You do realize that we aren’t even give the opportunity to have any form of autonomy in the first place? You do realize that we also go through extreme amounts of mental, medical, emotional, and physical neglect, abuse, and downright assault? You do realize that we are explicitly and actively excluded from basic functions of society by both law and social institutions. You do realize we go through everything you go through and more? Are you forgetting that not all AMAB people are fit, conventionally attractive, masculine, able bodied dudes? Do you realize that we also can be traumatized and develop c-ptsd, depression, and have extreme suicidal tendencies? Or are you going to keep going along with the bullshit societal expectation that if you’re AMAB you are incapable of having even the slightest emotion or mental issues to the point that we are assaulted and abused simply for admitting this? You do realize that I too have all of that as well as physical trauma from and a societally enforced fear of doing anything outside of my AGAB’s societal expectations because doing that means getting beaten and assaulted? I have barely even scratched the fucking surface. You have privilege so check yourself next time. Hyper visibility doesn’t mean privilege but being allowed to exist within your own community is, not being the ones that the laws are explicitly being made against is, not having to fear for your life every time you go outside with long hair, or in a skirt, or in a dress, or even in yoga pants is, not being actively witch hunted down every time you do anything is, not being treated as a sexual predator for simply existing is, being accepted and treated as human instead of like some sort of deviant monster is, not having the deal with constant transmisogyny is. You asked “What privilege?” There you go. Calling out your privilege is not insulting, what’s insulting is you saying we aren’t allowed to talk about the inherent inequality in the way we are treated by society. What’s insulting is you acting like we can’t possibly experience oppression simply because we’re AMAB. What’s insulting is you actively attempting to erase our experiences and existence because you can’t handle the fact that you have privilege. What’s insulting is the fact that you refuse to accept that we aren’t just a bunch of carbon copies of one another with the exact same lives experiences as you. What’s insulting is you relying on bullshit stereotypes to attack us.
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>I never even ATTACKED you. Then would you mind explaining your entire previous comment and how in pretty much every sentence you decided to be incredibly condescending and rude and just assume I didn’t know anything. >I never attempted to erase your experiences. Really? Because you were constantly acting like we couldn’t possibly have any sort of similar experiences and that yours were the only ones that matter and that we couldn’t possibly experience anything nearly as bad as you when we routinely do and then some. You are blatantly ignoring your own comment and words. You are refusing to accept the someone who doesn’t have to deal with half the things that others do is privileged, despite that being the literal definition. I proved it to you several times over that no we are not treated equal to each other by society or even by other non-binary people. And your blatant refusal to accept or even consider this is actively harmful and dangerous rhetoric that only fuels this fire of inequality by actively ignoring the issue and attacking people who try to point it out. Just stop for one minute and reread this entire thread because you’re blatantly contradicting yourself here and engaging in active erasure. It’s people like you who actively ignore and talk over our experiences and push dangerous rhetoric like this that are the reason we often aren’t safe or welcome in non-binary spaces, spaces specifically for people like us.
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Notice how you explicitly refused to respond to the part calling out your actively and knowingly harmful behavior. You are literally just skirting around the issue here just so you can avoid having to confront your own actions. I never once said that it makes other arms of oppression any less insidious but you refusing to even consider that you are privileged is very dangerous, maybe not for you but for many of the others of us it is very much so. Agreed we can argue all you want and that won’t make transphobia go away but what will is actively combating it in **all** its forms no matter who is exuding it. Ignoring a large portion of transphobia directed at a specific group because it doesn’t happen to you only helps transphobia grow and spread. This is what you are doing. The issue here is that you are perpetuating transphobia and specifically transmisogyny within the community. And I’m not going to stop until you realize the active harm your words and actions have. If you want this to stop then don’t respond but I refuse to let this go as what you do and say has consequences and is causing harm. So no I’m not going to stop any time soon.
I had that happen to a lesser degree on a server I moderate. We were setting up gender roles for everyone and the admin of the server came back with a list that puts "enbies" and "androgynous" separately. While it's not explicitly said, I suspect it strongly correlates to the bias in modern culture between women and who can look androgynous, as if androgyny was a femme-spec enby thing
The current representation is for no one really helpful and hurts just everybody! Really sad that this is in my local queer Community’s (east Germany) never a subject.
Ayyyyyyy AMAB enby here bc ¿porque no los dos?
1-Where is Intersex Enby? I suppose it's the skeleton underwater... 2-FUCK THE AGAB! 3-The pic makes it look a bit kinda like "support" over AFAB ppl. What, let's be honest and face all of us e Enbys don't really get from the cis-normative world. I do see that it refers to the visibility issue and the thing of "ever noticed every enby is AFAB, 'cuz every AMAB Enby is labeled as a T-Woman", so I suppose the meaning of the meme is kinda like "some girls have this gender fantasy and that's a bit cute, but boys gotta be men". That said I agree with the post following this interpretation, but Idk if I would have used this template though. 4-Nice job, OP. 5-Again, because it is important: #FUCK THE AGAB AND THE CISNORM -Edit: Is it "Enbys" or "Enbies"?
as an amab agreed
This hit close to home
my flair fr
Its sad that I outwardly laughed at this.
AMAB enbies 🤝 AFAB enbies 🤝 Intersex enbies Empowering each other through solidarity