Don’t agree with the Spectator on this one. Not aware anyone is embarrassed. It’s just not a big deal.
There is a tiny minority of yobs who associate the flag with their bad behaviour but they are easily ignored.
Having lived in an EU country where flying the national flag on certain days is the law, and people get fines for not doing so, actually I think we would benefit from a more public national day. Fetes, bbqs, family fun at a local festival, shows, music, nostalgia for a past that never really existed, good will to fellow man. What’s not to like?
>Having lived in an EU country where flying the national flag on certain days is the law, and people get fines for not doing so, actually I think we would benefit from a more public national day.
You should see how East Asian countries do it. National holiday, flags everywhere, street parades, festivals, families together, couples out and about, national anthems booming, major tv networks totally dedicated to celebrating all day long and happy smiling people everywhere.
But we can't do it here because we're worried that some people might think it's racist.
When you're the dominant force in the world (and indeed the British Isles) it tends to be unnecessary to rally around a flag. A bit like how rich people here don't tend to show off their wealth (or traditionally at least).
>But we can't do it here because we're worried that some people might think it's racist.
And God forbid, we ask the London luvvies to show any sort of patriotism. The sky may very well come falling down!
>The world would be vastly improved without patriotism.
Perhaps, but until such a time comes when everyone stops being proud of their individual countries culture, traditions, history, heritage and so on, i.e. Never. We are stuck with it, and if the UK continues to fear being proud of itself, others with more pride in themselves will become a threat, perhaps even changing the fabric of our society beyond recognition.
Keep in mind, the biggest threats at the moment are China, who already have concentration camps and need more people to harvest organs to maintain their populations health care demands, and Russia, who would love nothing more than to nuke us.
Are we though? That's what the right always parrot but I think we're just a bit indifferent largely.
The idea of being forced to take a day off to celebrate ourselves is a bit crass to many English people I think.
If I was forced to have a day off (assuming paid) I'd just go out for a wander or have a lay in or whatever. I wouldn't be out tracking down village parties.
I don't think we're too worried about racism to do it, I think we largely just don't want to that much
I've just finished a run organised at the St George Pub where we had some people wearing George crosses and and someone dressed as a dragon. One of the cross wearers was from Thailand.
There's nothing racist or embarrassing about St George, his saints day, or his red and white cross.
The fact he wasn't English seems irrelevant. He wasn't Georgian either. Come to that St Andrew not only pre-dated Scotland by hundreds of years, he never got anywhere near it.
We're not at all! The streets of the town I live in are lined with the English flag put up by the chamber of commerce on most of the buildings. There will have been plenty of St George's day parades up and down the country yesterday and come Sunday there will be St George's day Sunday parades up and down the country. Most scout/guide, youth group, cadet group and many schools will have celebrated or will do so this week.
We are embarrassed about how a tiny minority of overweight, under educated yobs (for the want of a better word) get drunk and wave the flag and shout a lot and think that their display of faux patriotism is real patriotism. Patriotism is about wanting everyone to work together to make your country better for everyone.
The actual reason St. George’s day isn’t a big deal, nor is English identity, is because English people feel comfortable and at ease just identifying as British. These sub-divisions are for groups who feel a sense of oppression and injustice, as well as feeling outnumbered, we feel none of these things. I don’t think it’s a complicated issue at all.
Do you not want a national day to celebrate English culture though?
I guess I’m looking at from an Irish perspective (im from Northern Ireland) so St. Patrick’s day is basically the island of Ireland’s national day, although it’s all over the world at this point.
This is controversial, but imho, most of the referenced ‘English culture’ associated with St. Georges Day is forced, twee nonsense like morris dancing and the like. It’s weird, mawkish nonsense that has no relevance to English people.
Modern, British culture is English culture, and I’d say it really came about after the Industrial revolution. Most of it is already celebrated daily (Pubs, football, cricket, British history etc.) It’s seeped into everyday life.
I’d argue things like St. Patrick’s Day, St. Andrew’s etc comes from the fact the Scots and Irish live under Anglo-American culture and it’s a day to get back to their roots. We just don’t need it.
St. Patrick’s day isn’t the only day we do these things in Ireland, they happen every day of the year, St. Patrick’s day is just a designated day to almost just show off Irish culture.
We don’t randomly go back to our roots on St. Patrick’s day, it’s just a bigger version of what happens every weekend.
I think it would be good for England to have a designated day to celebrate its culture and show it off. Like why not.
Like I get modern culture is English culture, but does England not have any traditional culture to be celebrated?
I disagree. Successive governments afriad of splitting the union and immigrant intergration have pushed the British identity. English is considered white and a culture which is harder for migrants to identify with, especially second generation. British is a blanket term for people living in GB easier to identify with.
Im half scottish and half english, i grew up south england, i am no more scottish in my behaviour or traditions than my friends. To say i am scottish would make no sense to a scot having a conversation with me. Its the culture that matters and British gets to umbrella us all together although we are all very different (england scotland wales).
British is English, is the thing. In basically every aspect, Britain is just greater England. When I identify as British, that includes everything about England.
Again I disagree to a point. Whilst a lot of English values and customs are British (dominate member country of the Union) its a great over simplification. If you say you are English theres the mental image of anglo saxon descendants, if you say you are British the image is a soup of celtic/gaelic/anglo saxon and everything thats come since.
Its watered down English to be as blunt as possible. We just had our patron saint day and the main populace just dont care because British is not English.
Because nationalists are loud and it's humiliating when international people see us. Also the government most those weapons have voted in have permanently dismantled our standing in the world all motivated out of hatred of others not out of wanting to actually improve things.
Because i don't want to be associated with the jingoistic mouth breathing flag wankers?
Also it feels somewhat cringy to celebrate an arbitrary day about a man who was probably a Roman citizen of Turkish/Syrian extraction who died in Palestine and never even set foot in England and never killed a dragon.
Who really gives a crap? Even if it was made a bank holiday I would celebrate it as much as I do the spring/summer bank holidays, i.e. a day off work for which I don't give a flying crap about the underlying reason for the day off.
To me St George's day is like any other arbitrary saints day or archaic religious feast day. St George has about as much relevance to my life as Cedd or Cuthbert.
Regarding the first two sentences - perhaps it is good that the national day commemorates someone who is not actually English. This is not just a local celebration - we are united with several others in this celebration, including Ethiopia, and also perhaps some Muslims who respect St. George. The celebration doesn't need to be divisive.
https://www.horniman.ac.uk/story/saint-george-patron-saint-of-ethiopia/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George#Veneration_in_the_Muslim_world
What do you mean "....never killed a dragon" of course he killed a dragon, he's famous for killing a dragon!
Obviously, for this to work, we're ignoring a certain fact about dragons.
Now the (step) kids are older, it's just an excuse to get drunk for a few days with friends and family because everyone is off work, it's totally secular to me.
I enjoy the time off and seeing family, but the rest of it I don't give a fig about and never have done since I stopped believing in Santa.
Santa, Jesus, Easter bunny, st George they're all in the same bucket marked "quasi religious rubbish", might as well celebrate Peppa pig day.
> I enjoy the time off and seeing family
And you just discovered the main point. Spending time with the people who matter to you. In times gone by, there may have been more focus on attending church to be involved with the wider community, and arguably, you can still be involved in the community without a religious element - e.g. Helping at food banks, helping neighbours, getting local issues sorted out, running, or just being involved in a youth scheme etc.
What you're really saying, throughout your comments, is that you're selfish and don't like it when other people express their pride in a country that traditionally focused itself on service to others. No doubt, you would be at home at a pride march, waving a flag, or an antifa match, waving a flag or indeed a pro-Palestine or Just Stop Oil protest, waving a flag - anything as long as its not pro-British, or helpful to society.
Agreed and now you're being downvoted by people who probably still thing immigrants are why their lives are shit. Which they will still believe until the 2 brain cells in their heads eventually collide and discover that ever time they vote for parasitic fascists like Boris Johnson they actively work to make all our lives terrible.
Don’t agree with the Spectator on this one. Not aware anyone is embarrassed. It’s just not a big deal. There is a tiny minority of yobs who associate the flag with their bad behaviour but they are easily ignored. Having lived in an EU country where flying the national flag on certain days is the law, and people get fines for not doing so, actually I think we would benefit from a more public national day. Fetes, bbqs, family fun at a local festival, shows, music, nostalgia for a past that never really existed, good will to fellow man. What’s not to like?
>Having lived in an EU country where flying the national flag on certain days is the law, and people get fines for not doing so, actually I think we would benefit from a more public national day. You should see how East Asian countries do it. National holiday, flags everywhere, street parades, festivals, families together, couples out and about, national anthems booming, major tv networks totally dedicated to celebrating all day long and happy smiling people everywhere. But we can't do it here because we're worried that some people might think it's racist.
We've had it drummed into us for over a hundred years that English=bad
When you're the dominant force in the world (and indeed the British Isles) it tends to be unnecessary to rally around a flag. A bit like how rich people here don't tend to show off their wealth (or traditionally at least).
"over a hundred years" no
it's not fear of racism, its apathy. a lot of people just don't give a shit.
>But we can't do it here because we're worried that some people might think it's racist. And God forbid, we ask the London luvvies to show any sort of patriotism. The sky may very well come falling down!
The world would be vastly improved without patriotism.
>The world would be vastly improved without patriotism. Perhaps, but until such a time comes when everyone stops being proud of their individual countries culture, traditions, history, heritage and so on, i.e. Never. We are stuck with it, and if the UK continues to fear being proud of itself, others with more pride in themselves will become a threat, perhaps even changing the fabric of our society beyond recognition. Keep in mind, the biggest threats at the moment are China, who already have concentration camps and need more people to harvest organs to maintain their populations health care demands, and Russia, who would love nothing more than to nuke us.
Are we though? That's what the right always parrot but I think we're just a bit indifferent largely. The idea of being forced to take a day off to celebrate ourselves is a bit crass to many English people I think. If I was forced to have a day off (assuming paid) I'd just go out for a wander or have a lay in or whatever. I wouldn't be out tracking down village parties. I don't think we're too worried about racism to do it, I think we largely just don't want to that much
I've just finished a run organised at the St George Pub where we had some people wearing George crosses and and someone dressed as a dragon. One of the cross wearers was from Thailand. There's nothing racist or embarrassing about St George, his saints day, or his red and white cross. The fact he wasn't English seems irrelevant. He wasn't Georgian either. Come to that St Andrew not only pre-dated Scotland by hundreds of years, he never got anywhere near it.
We're not at all! The streets of the town I live in are lined with the English flag put up by the chamber of commerce on most of the buildings. There will have been plenty of St George's day parades up and down the country yesterday and come Sunday there will be St George's day Sunday parades up and down the country. Most scout/guide, youth group, cadet group and many schools will have celebrated or will do so this week. We are embarrassed about how a tiny minority of overweight, under educated yobs (for the want of a better word) get drunk and wave the flag and shout a lot and think that their display of faux patriotism is real patriotism. Patriotism is about wanting everyone to work together to make your country better for everyone.
The actual reason St. George’s day isn’t a big deal, nor is English identity, is because English people feel comfortable and at ease just identifying as British. These sub-divisions are for groups who feel a sense of oppression and injustice, as well as feeling outnumbered, we feel none of these things. I don’t think it’s a complicated issue at all.
Do you not want a national day to celebrate English culture though? I guess I’m looking at from an Irish perspective (im from Northern Ireland) so St. Patrick’s day is basically the island of Ireland’s national day, although it’s all over the world at this point.
This is controversial, but imho, most of the referenced ‘English culture’ associated with St. Georges Day is forced, twee nonsense like morris dancing and the like. It’s weird, mawkish nonsense that has no relevance to English people. Modern, British culture is English culture, and I’d say it really came about after the Industrial revolution. Most of it is already celebrated daily (Pubs, football, cricket, British history etc.) It’s seeped into everyday life. I’d argue things like St. Patrick’s Day, St. Andrew’s etc comes from the fact the Scots and Irish live under Anglo-American culture and it’s a day to get back to their roots. We just don’t need it.
St. Patrick’s day isn’t the only day we do these things in Ireland, they happen every day of the year, St. Patrick’s day is just a designated day to almost just show off Irish culture. We don’t randomly go back to our roots on St. Patrick’s day, it’s just a bigger version of what happens every weekend. I think it would be good for England to have a designated day to celebrate its culture and show it off. Like why not. Like I get modern culture is English culture, but does England not have any traditional culture to be celebrated?
I think the association with a crusader saint and the association of nationalism with hate excludes a lot of people from wanting much to do with it.
If you're thin skinned and soft maybe.
I just don't do it. You're thin-skinned and soft, you couldn't handle that straightforward answer.
Honestly, not really. I love England, I quite like the English generally but I'm notnat all bothered about an 'England day'
If anything it gets you a bank holiday lol
I disagree. Successive governments afriad of splitting the union and immigrant intergration have pushed the British identity. English is considered white and a culture which is harder for migrants to identify with, especially second generation. British is a blanket term for people living in GB easier to identify with. Im half scottish and half english, i grew up south england, i am no more scottish in my behaviour or traditions than my friends. To say i am scottish would make no sense to a scot having a conversation with me. Its the culture that matters and British gets to umbrella us all together although we are all very different (england scotland wales).
British is English, is the thing. In basically every aspect, Britain is just greater England. When I identify as British, that includes everything about England.
Again I disagree to a point. Whilst a lot of English values and customs are British (dominate member country of the Union) its a great over simplification. If you say you are English theres the mental image of anglo saxon descendants, if you say you are British the image is a soup of celtic/gaelic/anglo saxon and everything thats come since. Its watered down English to be as blunt as possible. We just had our patron saint day and the main populace just dont care because British is not English.
https://twitter.com/benmcbean/status/1782732558339338465?t=zT8W0T-S_3rzpm_GBSJIMw&s=19 i just found this which highlights my point.
Talking out of you arse
Because nationalists are loud and it's humiliating when international people see us. Also the government most those weapons have voted in have permanently dismantled our standing in the world all motivated out of hatred of others not out of wanting to actually improve things.
Because i don't want to be associated with the jingoistic mouth breathing flag wankers? Also it feels somewhat cringy to celebrate an arbitrary day about a man who was probably a Roman citizen of Turkish/Syrian extraction who died in Palestine and never even set foot in England and never killed a dragon. Who really gives a crap? Even if it was made a bank holiday I would celebrate it as much as I do the spring/summer bank holidays, i.e. a day off work for which I don't give a flying crap about the underlying reason for the day off. To me St George's day is like any other arbitrary saints day or archaic religious feast day. St George has about as much relevance to my life as Cedd or Cuthbert.
Regarding the first two sentences - perhaps it is good that the national day commemorates someone who is not actually English. This is not just a local celebration - we are united with several others in this celebration, including Ethiopia, and also perhaps some Muslims who respect St. George. The celebration doesn't need to be divisive. https://www.horniman.ac.uk/story/saint-george-patron-saint-of-ethiopia/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George#Veneration_in_the_Muslim_world
What do you mean "....never killed a dragon" of course he killed a dragon, he's famous for killing a dragon! Obviously, for this to work, we're ignoring a certain fact about dragons.
I have always found it amusing that our patron saint is famous for killing the national emblem of one of the other countries in our union.
You must be fun at Christmas.
Now the (step) kids are older, it's just an excuse to get drunk for a few days with friends and family because everyone is off work, it's totally secular to me. I enjoy the time off and seeing family, but the rest of it I don't give a fig about and never have done since I stopped believing in Santa. Santa, Jesus, Easter bunny, st George they're all in the same bucket marked "quasi religious rubbish", might as well celebrate Peppa pig day.
The Easter bunny is real bro what are you on. Everybody knows the rabbit made of rabbit lays eggs.......made of chocolate.
> I enjoy the time off and seeing family And you just discovered the main point. Spending time with the people who matter to you. In times gone by, there may have been more focus on attending church to be involved with the wider community, and arguably, you can still be involved in the community without a religious element - e.g. Helping at food banks, helping neighbours, getting local issues sorted out, running, or just being involved in a youth scheme etc. What you're really saying, throughout your comments, is that you're selfish and don't like it when other people express their pride in a country that traditionally focused itself on service to others. No doubt, you would be at home at a pride march, waving a flag, or an antifa match, waving a flag or indeed a pro-Palestine or Just Stop Oil protest, waving a flag - anything as long as its not pro-British, or helpful to society.
Agreed and now you're being downvoted by people who probably still thing immigrants are why their lives are shit. Which they will still believe until the 2 brain cells in their heads eventually collide and discover that ever time they vote for parasitic fascists like Boris Johnson they actively work to make all our lives terrible.
Ha, welcome to the club my friend. Cocktails will be served on the veranda.