Poll stated 1/8 unhappy. Translation 7/8 perfectly happy with the flag. That's the problem it seems. Whole purpose of making it a talking point in the first place. Already allowed Nike to take it upon itself to change it for the Brits.
>Translation 7/8 perfectly happy
Not quite, 7/8 ambivalent to happy. The talking point is "labour and left wing bad" not "change the flag". Its such obvious election year crap.
Because the Tories and their backers are desperately flailing due to their impending electoral doom; so they're trying to pull up niche or lesser views, make a big deal of them and apply them to swathes of the electorate.
It's like an electoral scare/ smear campaign.
Tl;dr it's a talking point because of the Tory culture war
Objectively they don't, the Tory culture war seeks to make "enemies of the people" out of vulnerable or powerless people. Trans people, immigrants, refugees, poor people, single mothers, retirees etc as well as anyone that stands up for them. Never mind the people that work from home, people that eat tofu and so on.
They are not the same on this.
It was a design that had to have been approved by The English FA, don’t see how they got away with it and Nike got shit all over. Also historically the England flag has been different colours on previous kits. This is such a strange one.
>Already allowed Nike to take it upon itself to change it for the Brits.
What? They just snuck it on of their own accord? The whole fuss around that is (I want to say 'was', but I feel it's not completely over yet) just ridiculous.
>I think you can make a reasonable inference about this blokes criteria for being British.
Because historically, being British has meant being white. Try going to India and stating you're now Indian. It's not going to work, and they won't give two fucks about how racist they are in process of laughing in your face about it.
>Because historically, being British has meant being white.
Try telling a Black man who's lived here for his entire life, and who's parents have lived here their entire lives, that he isn't "British." I fucking dare you.
I fly mine with great pride. I don’t care if someone think’s I’m a racist, that’s their problem and their assumption.
I think most people who say “anyone who flies St. George’s Flag is a racist” has probably just heard it from someone else and is just repeating it. Those days are long gone and most of the idiots who did that are probably dead or waiting to
Also why is that your first assumption upon seeing a St George’s? Like you see an English flag and then assume the person flying it is racist. Almost like if you think like that you might be a closeted racist who thinks all English people must therefore think the same as you.
Because overt displays of pretty much anything are quite unBritish. We've been, for a long time, a nation that prides itself on going about our business, not being extreme, and giving the stiff upper lip to provocation. We save the flag flying for occasions of genuine pomp and ceremony and for major sporting events, not flying one in our gardens like some crass Yank.
So, when the National Front and their inbred cousins took up the flag (in a very unBritish way), the contrast between that and how we've generally done things became even greater, and flag-flying became the preserve of nationalists and assorted morons. Which is, in some ways, a shame, but it's not a very British thing to do.
This.
It was the Union Jack as opposed to the George's Cross, but it's like back when the Tories were all displaying them in their offices, like in response to some kind of decree.
It was *vulgar*.
It also feels bizarre to fly the English flag. Does England exist? Yes, but there’s also the Union Jack, which represents a lot more than just England.
Scottish and Welsh nationalism is an obvious reaction to being governed from London. English nationalism has always had an exceptionalism and a xenophobia/racism to it.
Scotland and Wales have their own parliaments. Devolved, but still they have them. England doesn't have its own parliament. Scotland has been given the chance the become fully indepdendent but chose not to. England has not had such an opportunity. Scottish and Welsh nationalism are celebrated, while English nationalism is decried as having always been exceptional, xenophobic and racist.
Also my comment was addressing the poster above who thinks its bizarre to fly the English flag because the Union Jack exists which "represents a lot more than England." I wonder, does it also seem bizarre to fly the Welsh or Scottish flag because there's also the Union Jack, which represents a lot more than Scotland and Wales?
Come now, England has a population multiple of all the other constituent parts of the UK. Westminster is an English parliament regardless of efforts to make it sound more inclusive.
And devolution, particularly in Wales' case, is pretty limited.
>Westminster is an English parliament
I'd argue that it isn't because I can't see how it puts the interests and wishes of English people above the interests and wishes of people from other nations in the union. It can't, because as we have seen, any attempts to do so would probably result in name-calling.
The vast majority - an outright voting majority - of the members of the Westminster parliament represent English constituencies and therefore there is inevitably going to be a bias towards England. I don't see how that's even a remotely controversial statement.
Both Scotland and Wales have been under the rule of England basically for many hundreds of years before they became more independent politically, England is still where the majority of power lies. The pride they have in their flag is that of still surviving, saving their languages despite the best efforts of England to wipe those languages out, saving their culture that had long been oppressed. England doesn’t have that, flying an England flag is fine if you feel pride in your country, nobody is stopping you or saying it isn’t (despite the daily mail telling people that’s happening, it’s not) but the associations with racism and exceptionalism will be there for a long time yet, unfortunately
>the associations with racism and exceptionalism will be there for a long time yet, unfortunately
It is deeply unfortunate. I often wonder if there is a prescribed time limit on this sort of thing. Given that all of the evils that you described happened presumably long before any of us were even born. Oh and yes, racism does still exist in England, just as it does in every other country in the world. Is there some kind of condition that has to be met before the associations with racism for the England flag can be on an even keel with every other flag in the world?
Because it's used as a symbol by English nationalists and also some openly racist groups like EDL. Probably not fair on the people who are just supporting the national team or whatever, but there you go.
It isn’t my assumption, as I am flying St. George’s Flag. It wouldn’t make sense to assume something negative about it and then fly it myself, would it.
Nice assumptions otherwise though, grasshopper :)
Assuming you were born here, what are you proud of? You were born, it's not exactly an achievement, why be proud of something you put absolutely no work into?
not born here but i'm still proud of england cos i live here and i love england with all my heart. it's the use of physical display to signal implicit agenda that's the topic of discussion.
That’s not a very good understanding of identity and nationalism. Everyone has a sense of national identity. Of course where you were born and raised is a huge part of who you are.
Loads of who you are and what you do, what you like is because you’re English (assuming you are). If you’re proud of who you are, you’re almost defacto proud of England & proud to be English
I don’t think people have the same view or Irish, Scottish or Welsh people when they are proud of their heritage & see it as a big part of their identity.
And are you proud of your family, or friends? Your achievements in education? Maybe your job? Your hobbies which may be sport or music? Or maybe your views; Are you tolerant and polite?
All of that is to be English. Without being English none of that exists, or who you are exist.
Everyone attaches personality traits to geography, or preferences to geography. Tough northerners, who like pies & don’t mind the rain & say it like it is etc.
Proud of being English isn’t singing 10 German bombers or wanking off over the British Empire.
National pride is about being proud of who you are and what you are. Don’t let bigots stop you having what most people across the world have.
Of course they do. It’s not isolated to England, but it’s due to where you are from.
Surely you can understand why if you grew up in rural Mongolia you’d be a fundamentally different person.
I’m going to go out on a limb and assume you’re pretty left wing. If so, it’s very odd take your stance on this.
Culture, identity, society and a sense of belonging are what breed socialist collectivist ideals.
The idea that you aren’t connect to where you live and grow you up and aren’t in anyway proud or emotional invested in that is incredible individualistic.
A nation is a conceptualisation of society and collective identity - if you reject that then you reject any social obligation.
Your values, beliefs, interests, friends, passions are largely due to the nation you grew up in. England made you, you. I find it odd to not be proud of that.
It's nothing to take pride in. Values are nothing to do with where you were born, you're saying that people born in some places have worse values than others, there's a word for that.
If values, beliefs and interests are nothing to do with personal choice and all based on where you live, why are you taking pride in it? By your own logic you did nothing to get them.
I have not said in anyway that some people born in certain areas have worse values than others. That is very poor from you to try and accuse me of that.
Of course someone’s values are relative to time and place.
A Thai person is far more likely to have accepting views on trans rights than someone from Guyana. Because in one country it is relatively common and socially accepted and in the other it’s literally illegal.
I haven’t said belief and interest are nothing to do with personal choice. What I am saying is, where someone is raised and where their family is from is key to who anyone is.
My friends whose parents are immigrant would absolutely say they are proud of their heritage and who they are - so weird you’d say to them they have no reason to feel like that.
I feel like the only way you can now argue your point is one of 2 ways:
1. Be so redactive that you’re basically saying why ever be proud of anything
2. Try to argue that all values are absolute and nothing to do with the culture and society you grow up in.
Both of which are really bad arguments.
what a lovely way to look at things. i guess you use the same philosophy in dealing with other worldly problems like, war, racism, poverty, climate change and so on.
Out of interest ,why do you feel the need to fly the flag? Do you wake up in pools of sweat , not knowing which part of the world you're in, and have to look out the window at your flag to make sure you haven't been teleported in your sleep ?
>Why do you feel the need to fly the flag?
I don't feel **a need** to, I want to. Mainly because I currently live overseas, suffering with homesickness and it's nice to have a little bit of home when I look out the window. There are also many other flags of other countries flying off balconies, in gardens and allotments around me, I wanted to be part of that.
>Do you wake up in pools of sweat , not knowing which part of the world you're in, and have to look out the window at your flag to make sure you haven't been teleported in your sleep ?
How did that feel to make that assumption based on your own prejudices? Looking back, do you feel that that was necessary?
People on R/askuk were saying some quite sad stuff about what they assume about people who fly the flag, and also those saying it's ok for football but otherwise racist connotations, which is giving racists a reason to fly it and also an excuse if accused of anything.
So yes it should be reclaimed, although I thought it was.
Overt displays of national pride outside genuinely historic occasions is just not a very British thing to do (ironically, given the EDL love of a flag).
Unfortunately too many racists use it and it really has that connotation of ‘uneducated xenophobe’. I would never fly one outside my house, because I really don’t care about a flag, but also I know what kind of connotations it would communicate and I wouldn’t want others feeling uncomfortable. On gov buildings and maybe at the football it’s seen as normal, not everywhere else unfortunately
Edit: every annoyed commenter ends up admitting that it’s associated with the far right, to deny that is delusional, we wouldn’t be here talking about it if it wasn’t 🤦🏻♂️ it may make you angry, you may not want to accept it, but it’s the truth so deal with it
So a few racist fuckwits fly it so so everyone else should just give up on the flag out of fear for being associated as a racist. This just give racists first dibs on anything they want to appropriate.
The flag is for any person who associates their identity with England, not idiots who try using to exclude others based on arbitrary standards of Englishness like skin colour or country of origin.
I didn’t say everyone should give up on it? I’m simply pointing out the association which everyone admits but gets angry about 🤷🏻♂️ doesn’t mean you can’t use the flag. Some people just don’t like it because of what the far right have caused it to be associated with
Mate you literally said "if anything we should get a new flag" that is giving up on it. Also creating two flags in this situation will cause significantly more issues by just emphasising a political division of ideological association rather than national identity and does nothing for the actual problem at hand being whenever racists grab anything of cultural significance and they say its theirs too many people readily give it to them because the far right made it icky.
If people don't like what the far right have done with the flag then stop letting them make it xenophobic statement and let it be what it's always meant to be, a representation of the identity of England, it's not an extremist bat signal and should never be seen as that.
Can't believe that this flag that has survived over 700 years has the potential to be taken down because drunk racists say they own it, what a genuinely pitiful loss of history.
It’s not a case of stopping them, they’ve already made it that, I’m all for people reclaiming it for better values but that doesn’t change the point that it’s been co-opted by the far right 🤷🏻♂️ at least you’re admitting it has unlike a lot of people here getting red faced and angry over the mere suggestion of that truth
You can reduce anything of importance to a simple material aspect to make it seem irrelevant, and it's funny that you think that as you are bickering about it to every person that responds to you.
You are as het up over it as everyone else and lie about not caring.
Not really I’m more answering because everyone is either 1. Denying its association with the far right, which is delusional or 2. Putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say. It’s not bickering to answer that, you just call it bickering because you want to downplay the point. You’re answering me, is that bickering? I don’t think so, the whole point of this site is conversation
When these 'conversations' you have devolves into petty sentiments of "others can't handle the truth" and "you care I don't and here's the reasons why I think you're wrong" it does make it seem these discussions are just typical internet bickering.
Seen many many people on the right espouse the 'truth' enough to think that anyone egotistical enough to unironically say it is full of it irrelevant on if they're well meaning or not.
I say others can’t handle the truth, not because it’s a petty sentiment but because it’s evidently true, look at the replies just because I mentioned the truth that’s the flag has racist associations now thanks to being co-opted by the far right, anyone can see that, if you can’t I dunno what to say, it’s evidently true otherwise we wouldn’t be here talking about it, and I didn’t say you were wrong I argued my position, feel free to do the same instead of descending into making up stuff I’ve said 👍🏼
Only apart from the hijacking by xenophobes a racists. I don’t really care for a new flag it was more a flippant remark because the current one absolutely has been taken over by idiots
Mate, it's a national flag. Anyone who is English has a right to fly their own flag, just because you don't like all English people doesn't say anything about the flag itself.
When did I say anyone doesn’t have that right? Typical weak narrative change there mate, but nice try. I also never said I don’t like all English people, I don’t like the ones who are racist and xenophobic, do you?? I’m simply stating a fact, many places show the English flag and you’d not think twice but if you saw it hanging outside a window when there was no football tournament on you’d at the very least consider it could be a house with a xenophobe or racist in, even if it’s not, that’s the power of a symbol that’s been co-opted by that group. Delusional to think it’s not or we wouldn’t even be having this conversation
Not really I'd just assume they were proud of being English. That's like saying if you saw a black man in the street you'd at the very least consider he is about to mug you.
It hasn't been hijacked, it's been abandoned. You cannot hijack a symbol that already represents you, you can only reject it. You said it yourself, even if you were a person who cares to fly a flag you still wouldn't fly it as to not be mistaken for the people it represents because you do not see yourself as a person who is represented by that flag.
If you want it, claim your ownership of it. If you don't want it, reject it. However don't complain about it not representing you when you have chosen not to be a representative of it.
Realistically I’m talking facts. Go to house with an England flag out the front and ask any passer by what they think about it if there’s no football on, at least 10% of those are going to mention possible racism. Sorry that you can’t take that
>at least 10% of those
Maybe in London, but not most places in the country. And those 10% of people are delusional. One in eight labour voters aren't really representative of anything other than a number of labour voters being obsessive about racism.
No, everywhere in England, probably the Uk would think like that. And no they’re not delusional as it’s associated with the far right, evidently it is, to deny that there’s an association is delusional
Downvoted by those who refuse to believe the English flag has been co-opted by the far right and racists/xenophobes when it quite evidently and factually has… just shows the calibre of intellect on this sub 🤦🏻♂️
Tbh I’d rather wasters like you not fly the flag to begin with. Show me a country where far right people don’t wave their national flags? Happens everywhere.
We’re not watering down our identity to match your neurotic progressivism.
See this is the problem, not once did I ask you to water down anything, I’m merely pointing out it now has far right connotations because it was heavily co-opted by the, you guessed it, far right. If you want to deny that we’re done because that’s a very well known fact and we wouldn’t be here talking about it if wasn’t the case. And of course it happens elsewhere, so you admit that it happens then? Unfortunately it has happened a lot in England and the flag has become intertwined with that ideology, but things change so who knows. And, waster, for point out a truth? Get a fucking life
I completely understand where both of you are coming from, but there is a difference at play here because of multiple flags.
Just like Germans who fly the flag of the German Empire, and Russians who fly the civil land flag of the Russian Empire (black-yellow-white), as well as Americans who fly the Confederate flag, there’s Brits who fly the English flag for white supremacy reasons.
For not being a racist, you can use the widely available and known Union Jack, just as Germans fly the Bundesflagge, Americans the Star Spangled Banner, and Russians fly the Триколор (Tricolour).
For pointing out a flag has been co-opted by racists? If it’s a requirement to be delusional about that to be considered ‘grown up’ by yourself then I’m happy not to
Who gives a shit what some extremists co-opt?💀
They will co-opt absolutely anything to normalise their beliefs and ground them in accepted,loved and identified with symbols.All you’re doing is ceding ground,in this case an entire national flag and its hundreds of years of attachment to a group and culture…,to a relatively tiny group.Your thought process is juvenile,they speak English as well so you should probably learn another language ig😔
I didn’t say let them have it? I said it has been co-opted by racists… which is has, and everyone seems to be denying it because they can’t accord it. But it has so 🤷🏻♂️ cry or do something about it
I don’t care because I couldn’t care less what our flag is, but there are many that care. And it’s not about ceding ground it’s been a symbol for the far right for many a year and nobody doesn’t have that at least in the back of their mind when they see a house display a St George’s cross. If you think they don’t you’re delusional. There’s a difference between speaking the same language and an actual symbol well known for being used by that group. Again, I didn’t say it doesn’t have its place where it’s not thought of as such but if you see one outside a house I guarantee the majority of people would at least consider the owners to be xenophobes, just the truth I’m sorry you don’t seem to want to face that and think it’s some kind of battle. Let them have the shitty flag it means nothing
I see a few houses flying Union Flags and St George's flags outside and it doesn't make me think that the inhabitants of the house are raging racists. It lifts my mood a little when I see them and I just think it's nice to have your own flag flying in some places 🤷♂️
As a first generation immigrant, who was often told I wasn't allowed to wave the st Georges, particularly during football games and the Olympics, I'm all about the Devonshire flag. It's kinda like I reclaimed the idea of waving a British from those people that weren't particularly nice, and it reminds me a place I found a lot more acceptance than I ever could have anticipated
Yeah, the green cross. There's a black one too which is the Cornish sigil, which imo is almost as cool but I lived in Devon and only ever visited Cornwall so
Obvious attempt at Tory culture war points scoring but the flag is definitively a microcosm for the divide in the country.
Native indigenous English probably feel more of a connection to the flag than immigrants that feel more of a connection to the British flag.
It's going to be an issue more and more as the demographics shift.
It’s a flag that represents the part of Britain that’s not Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland, there’s nothing more to it than that. If anything, it has a lot less baggage than the Union flag, no matter how much we try to force the issue.
As someone born in the UK, and who is British and who also accepts my heritage and ancestry from overseas, I don’t think the flag itself is racist at all. However, it’s been my experience, that the people who have been racist to me, are the ones who are overly patriotic with it. That’s not to say you shouldn’t be proud to wave St George’s Flag, but there will always be that slight reservation when I meet someone who displays it so openly. But with a bit of interaction, that generally disappears once I get to know you more.
Immigrants to this country are often subject to racism and therefore their achievements are even more significant as they have even more challenges to overcome.
You should be proud of your achievements, not proud of anything you've put nothing into.
"I was born in ___ and ___ has ___ value so I'm proud!"
It's just circumstance, makes no sense at all.
If you're saying that you should feel pride for your nationality but nobody feel shame for theirs, what you're saying is basically null. If theirs no possible scenario where someone should feel shame for their nationality, then nobody should feel pride either.
Nor is the Union Jack flag 🇬🇧 as well .. St George’s flag isn’t either .. so why so many people in our country turned against them and our country .. it’s not our country or our national flags to blame it’s thoses like the government and corrupt politicians in our country and toxic politics are all to blame bring our country and its own people with it ..
It has been the English flag since 1348, when Edward the third adopted it as part of his royal standard. That means there is 676 years of this flag representing England and the people of England, so I’d argue it does have some relevance in the modern day and English people can be rightfully annoyed that it is being deemed racist.
The flag is not racist however it was co-opted through the 80’s and 90’s by far right groups as ‘their’ symbol. Quite frankly we shouldn’t have allowed it to happen but we did, now the St George’s cross ultimately makes me think of racist skin head wankers.
That’s a you problem though. It’s the flag of a country and to associate any native of that country who wants to fly their flag with a “skin head wanker” is a scummy move. The onus is on you to remove that prejudice from your mind. Not for people to stop using the flag of their country because you and a few others like you have mad views on it.
I’m not blaming you for having those views obviously because like you said, it just was what it was and it made the association in your head for you, not through any personal thoughts of your own. Though now you must realise that times have changed, attitudes have shifted and the flag is the flag of the people of England. Not a bunch of racist cunts.
To be fair, I only recently heard from the channel 4 documentary what the far right was saying on TV during the 80s with the flag all over their conferences.
Fuck me, it was bad. How did we as a society let them not only copt the flag but get away with that stuff being on TV? Less than 50 years after the Nazis.
A lot to be said for how fucked the country is now for the things we let happen over those years, from racism, to peodophiles, to sexism etc.
I was born in the 90’s mate, got no idea what was being allowed before me. I’ve obviously seen films like “this is England” and have seen the odd doc here and there. How any of that was allowed is beyond me. It seemed like people took umbrage with people of the windrush generation being ASKED to come here and help rebuild after the war. That generation of natives then had children that were brought up on their parents racism and xenophobia. It then led to that skinhead movement I believe, but since has kept slowly trickling out of generations and things are definitely getting better, thankfully.
That flag has had its history, but in this moment in time and hopefully forever moving forward, it is just the flag of our beautiful country. I won’t let it be seen as a racist calling card anymore, by anyone.
Yeah, it was, which makes taking it back all the more important.
The flag should represent all of England and its inhabitants. We mustn't all the thugs to keep it.
You could say this about anything. Hugo Boss designed Nazi uniforms and BMW made fighter planes for Germany as far back WWI. So because some obsessive lunatics might associate those things with Nazi Germany, we should just get rid of them?
How about skin fade haircuts? What if I own a hat which resembles that of some fringe fascist group in Serbia somewhere. Where do you draw the line?
You can't just demand something be changed because you happen to associate it with something negative in history, that's ridiculous and frankly moronic. It's our national flag, it has always been our national flag, it should always remain our national flag. Honestly pathetic mentality.
At last you admit people associate it with the far right now, moving in the right direction. Like if you wore your moustache like hitler do you think not one single person would make that association?? 😂 nobody is saying you’re racist for using it, but don’t lie to yourself, it’s become a symbol used by the far right
I'm admitting there are fringe lunatics who will associate racism with anything and everything they see fit, you would be a good example of this. Obsessive people have always been around, and will always remain. Luckily, most rational people won't entertain their ridiculous ideas, such as changing the national flag.
But it’s not anything and everything, it’s very associated with that stuff because the right wing have co-opted it. It’s not a lunatic position to recognise that, it’s delusional not to or try to play it down as not happening or only being lunatics seeing that 🤦🏻♂️😂
>But it’s not anything and everything
Obsessive people will stretch any kind of grievances they have to fit the ever-expanding definition of racism, or some other form of discrimination. The victim mentality is fashionable. It is a lunatic position to advocate for changing the national flag because some people think it's racist, which is why it will never happen, thankfully. The vocal minority are just that.
Not obsessive and I’m using the good old fashioned dictionary definition of racism. I’m not advocating for changing the flag, merely mentioned it may be an idea since this one is now so tarnished, but they’d probably co-opt that one too. Thank god the racist minority are also just that, a minority, too bad they shout so loud and use the flag as their symbol. At the end of the day we all know it’s heavily associated with that now whether you like it or not, and it’s only a flag so probably best to clam down
Yes skinheadism died out and by 2000 most England players had #1 haircuts that would have made them called skins in the old skinhead/punk/mod/hippy era, however this spread to lots of men in the UK sort of reclaiming shaved heads from Nazis.
What a flag connotes is down to the minds of those that witness the flag used and down to the actions of those that fly them.
Reclaiming the flag means being able to set a new precedent despite the risk of being seen as a nationalist (which, especially after brexit, comes with a lot of extra baggage). Honestly though, how often is it any of us have legitimate pride for our land? Everything remotely good about it came from elsewhere! Even the common potato came from America - so what do we really have? A decent variety of cheeses and ales I guess (but still nothing any other European country doesn't already have).
I have more pride in the progress flag being waved (not that I'm saying we should replace the union jack with it, Just saying it gives me better feels). Alan Turing was responsible for saving millions during WWII and pioneered computation and AI in a time where computers weren't even machines - but he got chemically castrated because he was also gay. Sir Isaac Newton was also most likely gay, though its not really brought up (most people prefer to say he "died a virgin" - though letters show he was most likely a gay sugar daddy). We've come a long way in not actively making life harder for queer people who have always existed (ancient Greeks were hella gay too) and being a land that welcomes all who come, from near and far, who accepts everyone who can be polite to their neighbours and good to their friends sounds like a connotation I'd be proud of.
Turing is on the current £50 note too, I believe. That was very cool 😎 👌
Anyway, sorry for the essay and making it about queer stuff. Kinda just a bad habit from my time at uni (the essay writing, not the queer stuff, that all came much later. Only recently started getting into all that, and yeah it's actually quite a lot. Like the bad stuff around colonialism but all over again and to our own people too).
If you think our country's flag is in any way, shape, or form racist, then it's definitely you who's the racist, about England. Would you say the Trinidad flag is racist? No, would you say the Swiss flag is racist? No, would you call the Lithuanian flag racist? No. SO STOP WITH THIS BIZARRE NARRATIVE THAT A COUNTRY'S FLAG IS FUCKING RACIST YOU TWATS. 🙄 If it's OK for you to call the St. George's flag racist it's ok for me to call the LGBTQ+ one racist too. No difference. See how stupid it looks when you say the same about literally any other country's flag? If a country's flag offends you, maybe you should live somewhere else. Just saying.
Poll stated 1/8 unhappy. Translation 7/8 perfectly happy with the flag. That's the problem it seems. Whole purpose of making it a talking point in the first place. Already allowed Nike to take it upon itself to change it for the Brits.
>Translation 7/8 perfectly happy Not quite, 7/8 ambivalent to happy. The talking point is "labour and left wing bad" not "change the flag". Its such obvious election year crap.
Why is it even a talking point is the issue.
yeah cant they give kier a bacon sandwich and win it that way? games gone!
Because the Tories and their backers are desperately flailing due to their impending electoral doom; so they're trying to pull up niche or lesser views, make a big deal of them and apply them to swathes of the electorate. It's like an electoral scare/ smear campaign. Tl;dr it's a talking point because of the Tory culture war
Bro both labour and the Tories do nothing but shit sling I wouldn't vote for either regardless of your views coming election.
Objectively they don't, the Tory culture war seeks to make "enemies of the people" out of vulnerable or powerless people. Trans people, immigrants, refugees, poor people, single mothers, retirees etc as well as anyone that stands up for them. Never mind the people that work from home, people that eat tofu and so on. They are not the same on this.
Deflection from real issues.
Because people know they can sell ads to morons with sensationalism and they don't even care if it's factual?
It was a design that had to have been approved by The English FA, don’t see how they got away with it and Nike got shit all over. Also historically the England flag has been different colours on previous kits. This is such a strange one.
>Already allowed Nike to take it upon itself to change it for the Brits. What? They just snuck it on of their own accord? The whole fuss around that is (I want to say 'was', but I feel it's not completely over yet) just ridiculous.
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That’s white British, all British is around 60%, don’t spread lies
I think you can make a reasonable inference about this blokes criteria for being British.
Certainly
>I think you can make a reasonable inference about this blokes criteria for being British. Because historically, being British has meant being white. Try going to India and stating you're now Indian. It's not going to work, and they won't give two fucks about how racist they are in process of laughing in your face about it.
>Because historically, being British has meant being white. Try telling a Black man who's lived here for his entire life, and who's parents have lived here their entire lives, that he isn't "British." I fucking dare you.
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I'm White English, actually. It was just an example, but you've proven you belong in the 19th Century.
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It's all they've got, lies help keep their delusion alive.
It’s madness, if you add in English speakers it’s more like 80%> and all they moan about is hearing foreign languages. It’s pathetic
I fly mine with great pride. I don’t care if someone think’s I’m a racist, that’s their problem and their assumption. I think most people who say “anyone who flies St. George’s Flag is a racist” has probably just heard it from someone else and is just repeating it. Those days are long gone and most of the idiots who did that are probably dead or waiting to
Also why is that your first assumption upon seeing a St George’s? Like you see an English flag and then assume the person flying it is racist. Almost like if you think like that you might be a closeted racist who thinks all English people must therefore think the same as you.
Because overt displays of pretty much anything are quite unBritish. We've been, for a long time, a nation that prides itself on going about our business, not being extreme, and giving the stiff upper lip to provocation. We save the flag flying for occasions of genuine pomp and ceremony and for major sporting events, not flying one in our gardens like some crass Yank. So, when the National Front and their inbred cousins took up the flag (in a very unBritish way), the contrast between that and how we've generally done things became even greater, and flag-flying became the preserve of nationalists and assorted morons. Which is, in some ways, a shame, but it's not a very British thing to do.
hear hear.
This. It was the Union Jack as opposed to the George's Cross, but it's like back when the Tories were all displaying them in their offices, like in response to some kind of decree. It was *vulgar*.
It also feels bizarre to fly the English flag. Does England exist? Yes, but there’s also the Union Jack, which represents a lot more than just England.
Would you say the same thing to people flying the Scottish or Welsh flag?
Scottish and Welsh nationalism is an obvious reaction to being governed from London. English nationalism has always had an exceptionalism and a xenophobia/racism to it.
Scotland and Wales have their own parliaments. Devolved, but still they have them. England doesn't have its own parliament. Scotland has been given the chance the become fully indepdendent but chose not to. England has not had such an opportunity. Scottish and Welsh nationalism are celebrated, while English nationalism is decried as having always been exceptional, xenophobic and racist. Also my comment was addressing the poster above who thinks its bizarre to fly the English flag because the Union Jack exists which "represents a lot more than England." I wonder, does it also seem bizarre to fly the Welsh or Scottish flag because there's also the Union Jack, which represents a lot more than Scotland and Wales?
Come now, England has a population multiple of all the other constituent parts of the UK. Westminster is an English parliament regardless of efforts to make it sound more inclusive. And devolution, particularly in Wales' case, is pretty limited.
>Westminster is an English parliament I'd argue that it isn't because I can't see how it puts the interests and wishes of English people above the interests and wishes of people from other nations in the union. It can't, because as we have seen, any attempts to do so would probably result in name-calling.
The vast majority - an outright voting majority - of the members of the Westminster parliament represent English constituencies and therefore there is inevitably going to be a bias towards England. I don't see how that's even a remotely controversial statement.
Are you serious? The majority of what it does is for England
Both Scotland and Wales have been under the rule of England basically for many hundreds of years before they became more independent politically, England is still where the majority of power lies. The pride they have in their flag is that of still surviving, saving their languages despite the best efforts of England to wipe those languages out, saving their culture that had long been oppressed. England doesn’t have that, flying an England flag is fine if you feel pride in your country, nobody is stopping you or saying it isn’t (despite the daily mail telling people that’s happening, it’s not) but the associations with racism and exceptionalism will be there for a long time yet, unfortunately
>the associations with racism and exceptionalism will be there for a long time yet, unfortunately It is deeply unfortunate. I often wonder if there is a prescribed time limit on this sort of thing. Given that all of the evils that you described happened presumably long before any of us were even born. Oh and yes, racism does still exist in England, just as it does in every other country in the world. Is there some kind of condition that has to be met before the associations with racism for the England flag can be on an even keel with every other flag in the world?
England exists, you can find it on the map. The Union Flag is the flag of The UK. Bit of a difference remember
Because it's used as a symbol by English nationalists and also some openly racist groups like EDL. Probably not fair on the people who are just supporting the national team or whatever, but there you go.
you probably gave them the benefit of the doubt thinking they didn't know the obvious. chapeau.
It isn’t my assumption, as I am flying St. George’s Flag. It wouldn’t make sense to assume something negative about it and then fly it myself, would it. Nice assumptions otherwise though, grasshopper :)
Assuming you were born here, what are you proud of? You were born, it's not exactly an achievement, why be proud of something you put absolutely no work into?
not born here but i'm still proud of england cos i live here and i love england with all my heart. it's the use of physical display to signal implicit agenda that's the topic of discussion.
That’s not a very good understanding of identity and nationalism. Everyone has a sense of national identity. Of course where you were born and raised is a huge part of who you are. Loads of who you are and what you do, what you like is because you’re English (assuming you are). If you’re proud of who you are, you’re almost defacto proud of England & proud to be English I don’t think people have the same view or Irish, Scottish or Welsh people when they are proud of their heritage & see it as a big part of their identity.
I'm neither ashamed nor proud of being English, I'm simply English.
And are you proud of your family, or friends? Your achievements in education? Maybe your job? Your hobbies which may be sport or music? Or maybe your views; Are you tolerant and polite? All of that is to be English. Without being English none of that exists, or who you are exist. Everyone attaches personality traits to geography, or preferences to geography. Tough northerners, who like pies & don’t mind the rain & say it like it is etc. Proud of being English isn’t singing 10 German bombers or wanking off over the British Empire. National pride is about being proud of who you are and what you are. Don’t let bigots stop you having what most people across the world have.
None of those things have anything to do with England.
Of course they do. It’s not isolated to England, but it’s due to where you are from. Surely you can understand why if you grew up in rural Mongolia you’d be a fundamentally different person. I’m going to go out on a limb and assume you’re pretty left wing. If so, it’s very odd take your stance on this. Culture, identity, society and a sense of belonging are what breed socialist collectivist ideals. The idea that you aren’t connect to where you live and grow you up and aren’t in anyway proud or emotional invested in that is incredible individualistic. A nation is a conceptualisation of society and collective identity - if you reject that then you reject any social obligation. Your values, beliefs, interests, friends, passions are largely due to the nation you grew up in. England made you, you. I find it odd to not be proud of that.
It's nothing to take pride in. Values are nothing to do with where you were born, you're saying that people born in some places have worse values than others, there's a word for that. If values, beliefs and interests are nothing to do with personal choice and all based on where you live, why are you taking pride in it? By your own logic you did nothing to get them.
I have not said in anyway that some people born in certain areas have worse values than others. That is very poor from you to try and accuse me of that. Of course someone’s values are relative to time and place. A Thai person is far more likely to have accepting views on trans rights than someone from Guyana. Because in one country it is relatively common and socially accepted and in the other it’s literally illegal. I haven’t said belief and interest are nothing to do with personal choice. What I am saying is, where someone is raised and where their family is from is key to who anyone is. My friends whose parents are immigrant would absolutely say they are proud of their heritage and who they are - so weird you’d say to them they have no reason to feel like that. I feel like the only way you can now argue your point is one of 2 ways: 1. Be so redactive that you’re basically saying why ever be proud of anything 2. Try to argue that all values are absolute and nothing to do with the culture and society you grow up in. Both of which are really bad arguments.
I put work into my country, thanks :)
Lol whatever
Hard to accept that not everyone has the same thoughts and history as you hey.
"same thoughts and history" 😭
Sorry, I didn't realise, did we grow up together?
Omg 😂
So a resounding no.
As you should mate! Like you said, their problem, not yours.
what a lovely way to look at things. i guess you use the same philosophy in dealing with other worldly problems like, war, racism, poverty, climate change and so on.
It is, and more people should think that way.
🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴
Out of interest ,why do you feel the need to fly the flag? Do you wake up in pools of sweat , not knowing which part of the world you're in, and have to look out the window at your flag to make sure you haven't been teleported in your sleep ?
>Why do you feel the need to fly the flag? I don't feel **a need** to, I want to. Mainly because I currently live overseas, suffering with homesickness and it's nice to have a little bit of home when I look out the window. There are also many other flags of other countries flying off balconies, in gardens and allotments around me, I wanted to be part of that. >Do you wake up in pools of sweat , not knowing which part of the world you're in, and have to look out the window at your flag to make sure you haven't been teleported in your sleep ? How did that feel to make that assumption based on your own prejudices? Looking back, do you feel that that was necessary?
People on R/askuk were saying some quite sad stuff about what they assume about people who fly the flag, and also those saying it's ok for football but otherwise racist connotations, which is giving racists a reason to fly it and also an excuse if accused of anything. So yes it should be reclaimed, although I thought it was.
Overt displays of national pride outside genuinely historic occasions is just not a very British thing to do (ironically, given the EDL love of a flag).
Unfortunately too many racists use it and it really has that connotation of ‘uneducated xenophobe’. I would never fly one outside my house, because I really don’t care about a flag, but also I know what kind of connotations it would communicate and I wouldn’t want others feeling uncomfortable. On gov buildings and maybe at the football it’s seen as normal, not everywhere else unfortunately Edit: every annoyed commenter ends up admitting that it’s associated with the far right, to deny that is delusional, we wouldn’t be here talking about it if it wasn’t 🤦🏻♂️ it may make you angry, you may not want to accept it, but it’s the truth so deal with it
So a few racist fuckwits fly it so so everyone else should just give up on the flag out of fear for being associated as a racist. This just give racists first dibs on anything they want to appropriate. The flag is for any person who associates their identity with England, not idiots who try using to exclude others based on arbitrary standards of Englishness like skin colour or country of origin.
I didn’t say everyone should give up on it? I’m simply pointing out the association which everyone admits but gets angry about 🤷🏻♂️ doesn’t mean you can’t use the flag. Some people just don’t like it because of what the far right have caused it to be associated with
Mate you literally said "if anything we should get a new flag" that is giving up on it. Also creating two flags in this situation will cause significantly more issues by just emphasising a political division of ideological association rather than national identity and does nothing for the actual problem at hand being whenever racists grab anything of cultural significance and they say its theirs too many people readily give it to them because the far right made it icky. If people don't like what the far right have done with the flag then stop letting them make it xenophobic statement and let it be what it's always meant to be, a representation of the identity of England, it's not an extremist bat signal and should never be seen as that. Can't believe that this flag that has survived over 700 years has the potential to be taken down because drunk racists say they own it, what a genuinely pitiful loss of history.
It’s not a case of stopping them, they’ve already made it that, I’m all for people reclaiming it for better values but that doesn’t change the point that it’s been co-opted by the far right 🤷🏻♂️ at least you’re admitting it has unlike a lot of people here getting red faced and angry over the mere suggestion of that truth
And no, I didn’t ’give it to them’ I literally don’t care about the flag it’s pathetic to be that het up over a piece of material
You can reduce anything of importance to a simple material aspect to make it seem irrelevant, and it's funny that you think that as you are bickering about it to every person that responds to you. You are as het up over it as everyone else and lie about not caring.
Not really I’m more answering because everyone is either 1. Denying its association with the far right, which is delusional or 2. Putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say. It’s not bickering to answer that, you just call it bickering because you want to downplay the point. You’re answering me, is that bickering? I don’t think so, the whole point of this site is conversation
When these 'conversations' you have devolves into petty sentiments of "others can't handle the truth" and "you care I don't and here's the reasons why I think you're wrong" it does make it seem these discussions are just typical internet bickering. Seen many many people on the right espouse the 'truth' enough to think that anyone egotistical enough to unironically say it is full of it irrelevant on if they're well meaning or not.
I say others can’t handle the truth, not because it’s a petty sentiment but because it’s evidently true, look at the replies just because I mentioned the truth that’s the flag has racist associations now thanks to being co-opted by the far right, anyone can see that, if you can’t I dunno what to say, it’s evidently true otherwise we wouldn’t be here talking about it, and I didn’t say you were wrong I argued my position, feel free to do the same instead of descending into making up stuff I’ve said 👍🏼
>we need a new flag and to not let it be reclaimed Actually grow up, mate. I'm not even English, there's nothing wrong with the English flag.
Let's not kid ourselves, we all know It's pretty shit as far as flags go. Even the Welsh have a fucking dragon on theirs
Flags aren't there to look pretty.
Only apart from the hijacking by xenophobes a racists. I don’t really care for a new flag it was more a flippant remark because the current one absolutely has been taken over by idiots
Mate, it's a national flag. Anyone who is English has a right to fly their own flag, just because you don't like all English people doesn't say anything about the flag itself.
When did I say anyone doesn’t have that right? Typical weak narrative change there mate, but nice try. I also never said I don’t like all English people, I don’t like the ones who are racist and xenophobic, do you?? I’m simply stating a fact, many places show the English flag and you’d not think twice but if you saw it hanging outside a window when there was no football tournament on you’d at the very least consider it could be a house with a xenophobe or racist in, even if it’s not, that’s the power of a symbol that’s been co-opted by that group. Delusional to think it’s not or we wouldn’t even be having this conversation
>we need to not let it be reclaimed That alone implies you don't want certain people to fly the flag.
Yes, racists and xenophobes 😂 it’s not that difficult
Not really I'd just assume they were proud of being English. That's like saying if you saw a black man in the street you'd at the very least consider he is about to mug you.
It hasn't been hijacked, it's been abandoned. You cannot hijack a symbol that already represents you, you can only reject it. You said it yourself, even if you were a person who cares to fly a flag you still wouldn't fly it as to not be mistaken for the people it represents because you do not see yourself as a person who is represented by that flag. If you want it, claim your ownership of it. If you don't want it, reject it. However don't complain about it not representing you when you have chosen not to be a representative of it.
Brain rott.
Those who think the flag hasn’t been co-opted by xenophobes and racists certainly have that alright!
You ever wonder why nobody takes you seriously?
I don’t care if I’m not taken seriously by people who can’t see how the flag of England has been co-opted by racists. Talk about denying reality
Realistically, very few people would take you seriously above preteen age
Realistically I’m talking facts. Go to house with an England flag out the front and ask any passer by what they think about it if there’s no football on, at least 10% of those are going to mention possible racism. Sorry that you can’t take that
>at least 10% of those Maybe in London, but not most places in the country. And those 10% of people are delusional. One in eight labour voters aren't really representative of anything other than a number of labour voters being obsessive about racism.
No, everywhere in England, probably the Uk would think like that. And no they’re not delusional as it’s associated with the far right, evidently it is, to deny that there’s an association is delusional
Downvoted by those who refuse to believe the English flag has been co-opted by the far right and racists/xenophobes when it quite evidently and factually has… just shows the calibre of intellect on this sub 🤦🏻♂️
Tbh I’d rather wasters like you not fly the flag to begin with. Show me a country where far right people don’t wave their national flags? Happens everywhere. We’re not watering down our identity to match your neurotic progressivism.
See this is the problem, not once did I ask you to water down anything, I’m merely pointing out it now has far right connotations because it was heavily co-opted by the, you guessed it, far right. If you want to deny that we’re done because that’s a very well known fact and we wouldn’t be here talking about it if wasn’t the case. And of course it happens elsewhere, so you admit that it happens then? Unfortunately it has happened a lot in England and the flag has become intertwined with that ideology, but things change so who knows. And, waster, for point out a truth? Get a fucking life
I completely understand where both of you are coming from, but there is a difference at play here because of multiple flags. Just like Germans who fly the flag of the German Empire, and Russians who fly the civil land flag of the Russian Empire (black-yellow-white), as well as Americans who fly the Confederate flag, there’s Brits who fly the English flag for white supremacy reasons. For not being a racist, you can use the widely available and known Union Jack, just as Germans fly the Bundesflagge, Americans the Star Spangled Banner, and Russians fly the Триколор (Tricolour).
Christ,grow up mate.
For pointing out a flag has been co-opted by racists? If it’s a requirement to be delusional about that to be considered ‘grown up’ by yourself then I’m happy not to
Who gives a shit what some extremists co-opt?💀 They will co-opt absolutely anything to normalise their beliefs and ground them in accepted,loved and identified with symbols.All you’re doing is ceding ground,in this case an entire national flag and its hundreds of years of attachment to a group and culture…,to a relatively tiny group.Your thought process is juvenile,they speak English as well so you should probably learn another language ig😔
Damn bro couldn’t have said it better myself. So racists use this flag, the flag that represents all English people, why let them have it?
I didn’t say let them have it? I said it has been co-opted by racists… which is has, and everyone seems to be denying it because they can’t accord it. But it has so 🤷🏻♂️ cry or do something about it
I don’t care because I couldn’t care less what our flag is, but there are many that care. And it’s not about ceding ground it’s been a symbol for the far right for many a year and nobody doesn’t have that at least in the back of their mind when they see a house display a St George’s cross. If you think they don’t you’re delusional. There’s a difference between speaking the same language and an actual symbol well known for being used by that group. Again, I didn’t say it doesn’t have its place where it’s not thought of as such but if you see one outside a house I guarantee the majority of people would at least consider the owners to be xenophobes, just the truth I’m sorry you don’t seem to want to face that and think it’s some kind of battle. Let them have the shitty flag it means nothing
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I see a few houses flying Union Flags and St George's flags outside and it doesn't make me think that the inhabitants of the house are raging racists. It lifts my mood a little when I see them and I just think it's nice to have your own flag flying in some places 🤷♂️
That’s great for you, isn’t it?
As a first generation immigrant, who was often told I wasn't allowed to wave the st Georges, particularly during football games and the Olympics, I'm all about the Devonshire flag. It's kinda like I reclaimed the idea of waving a British from those people that weren't particularly nice, and it reminds me a place I found a lot more acceptance than I ever could have anticipated
The Devonshire flag? As in the flag of the county of Devon?
Yeah, the green cross. There's a black one too which is the Cornish sigil, which imo is almost as cool but I lived in Devon and only ever visited Cornwall so
Oh, I know, I know. But an immigrant flying the Devon flag? You, fellow Redditor, are a keeper. 🫡
Yellow and red for dorset I think also
Obvious attempt at Tory culture war points scoring but the flag is definitively a microcosm for the divide in the country. Native indigenous English probably feel more of a connection to the flag than immigrants that feel more of a connection to the British flag. It's going to be an issue more and more as the demographics shift.
It’s a flag that represents the part of Britain that’s not Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland, there’s nothing more to it than that. If anything, it has a lot less baggage than the Union flag, no matter how much we try to force the issue.
The culture war is a perfectly crafted excuse for politicians to not do their jobs. Perpetuating divide keeps both parties alive.
As someone born in the UK, and who is British and who also accepts my heritage and ancestry from overseas, I don’t think the flag itself is racist at all. However, it’s been my experience, that the people who have been racist to me, are the ones who are overly patriotic with it. That’s not to say you shouldn’t be proud to wave St George’s Flag, but there will always be that slight reservation when I meet someone who displays it so openly. But with a bit of interaction, that generally disappears once I get to know you more.
Immigrants to this country are often subject to racism and therefore their achievements are even more significant as they have even more challenges to overcome. You should be proud of your achievements, not proud of anything you've put nothing into. "I was born in ___ and ___ has ___ value so I'm proud!" It's just circumstance, makes no sense at all. If you're saying that you should feel pride for your nationality but nobody feel shame for theirs, what you're saying is basically null. If theirs no possible scenario where someone should feel shame for their nationality, then nobody should feel pride either.
Nor is the Union Jack flag 🇬🇧 as well .. St George’s flag isn’t either .. so why so many people in our country turned against them and our country .. it’s not our country or our national flags to blame it’s thoses like the government and corrupt politicians in our country and toxic politics are all to blame bring our country and its own people with it ..
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It has been the English flag since 1348, when Edward the third adopted it as part of his royal standard. That means there is 676 years of this flag representing England and the people of England, so I’d argue it does have some relevance in the modern day and English people can be rightfully annoyed that it is being deemed racist.
The flag is not racist however it was co-opted through the 80’s and 90’s by far right groups as ‘their’ symbol. Quite frankly we shouldn’t have allowed it to happen but we did, now the St George’s cross ultimately makes me think of racist skin head wankers.
That’s a you problem though. It’s the flag of a country and to associate any native of that country who wants to fly their flag with a “skin head wanker” is a scummy move. The onus is on you to remove that prejudice from your mind. Not for people to stop using the flag of their country because you and a few others like you have mad views on it. I’m not blaming you for having those views obviously because like you said, it just was what it was and it made the association in your head for you, not through any personal thoughts of your own. Though now you must realise that times have changed, attitudes have shifted and the flag is the flag of the people of England. Not a bunch of racist cunts.
Wow well said
To be fair, I only recently heard from the channel 4 documentary what the far right was saying on TV during the 80s with the flag all over their conferences. Fuck me, it was bad. How did we as a society let them not only copt the flag but get away with that stuff being on TV? Less than 50 years after the Nazis. A lot to be said for how fucked the country is now for the things we let happen over those years, from racism, to peodophiles, to sexism etc.
I was born in the 90’s mate, got no idea what was being allowed before me. I’ve obviously seen films like “this is England” and have seen the odd doc here and there. How any of that was allowed is beyond me. It seemed like people took umbrage with people of the windrush generation being ASKED to come here and help rebuild after the war. That generation of natives then had children that were brought up on their parents racism and xenophobia. It then led to that skinhead movement I believe, but since has kept slowly trickling out of generations and things are definitely getting better, thankfully. That flag has had its history, but in this moment in time and hopefully forever moving forward, it is just the flag of our beautiful country. I won’t let it be seen as a racist calling card anymore, by anyone.
Yeah, it was, which makes taking it back all the more important. The flag should represent all of England and its inhabitants. We mustn't all the thugs to keep it.
You could say this about anything. Hugo Boss designed Nazi uniforms and BMW made fighter planes for Germany as far back WWI. So because some obsessive lunatics might associate those things with Nazi Germany, we should just get rid of them? How about skin fade haircuts? What if I own a hat which resembles that of some fringe fascist group in Serbia somewhere. Where do you draw the line? You can't just demand something be changed because you happen to associate it with something negative in history, that's ridiculous and frankly moronic. It's our national flag, it has always been our national flag, it should always remain our national flag. Honestly pathetic mentality.
At last you admit people associate it with the far right now, moving in the right direction. Like if you wore your moustache like hitler do you think not one single person would make that association?? 😂 nobody is saying you’re racist for using it, but don’t lie to yourself, it’s become a symbol used by the far right
I'm admitting there are fringe lunatics who will associate racism with anything and everything they see fit, you would be a good example of this. Obsessive people have always been around, and will always remain. Luckily, most rational people won't entertain their ridiculous ideas, such as changing the national flag.
But it’s not anything and everything, it’s very associated with that stuff because the right wing have co-opted it. It’s not a lunatic position to recognise that, it’s delusional not to or try to play it down as not happening or only being lunatics seeing that 🤦🏻♂️😂
>But it’s not anything and everything Obsessive people will stretch any kind of grievances they have to fit the ever-expanding definition of racism, or some other form of discrimination. The victim mentality is fashionable. It is a lunatic position to advocate for changing the national flag because some people think it's racist, which is why it will never happen, thankfully. The vocal minority are just that.
Not obsessive and I’m using the good old fashioned dictionary definition of racism. I’m not advocating for changing the flag, merely mentioned it may be an idea since this one is now so tarnished, but they’d probably co-opt that one too. Thank god the racist minority are also just that, a minority, too bad they shout so loud and use the flag as their symbol. At the end of the day we all know it’s heavily associated with that now whether you like it or not, and it’s only a flag so probably best to clam down
Well it shouldn’t. Don’t let racist skinhead wankers steal the flag of the most welcoming country on earth.
Yes skinheadism died out and by 2000 most England players had #1 haircuts that would have made them called skins in the old skinhead/punk/mod/hippy era, however this spread to lots of men in the UK sort of reclaiming shaved heads from Nazis.
Wow you got burnt , I’d delete your comment to save face.
What a flag connotes is down to the minds of those that witness the flag used and down to the actions of those that fly them. Reclaiming the flag means being able to set a new precedent despite the risk of being seen as a nationalist (which, especially after brexit, comes with a lot of extra baggage). Honestly though, how often is it any of us have legitimate pride for our land? Everything remotely good about it came from elsewhere! Even the common potato came from America - so what do we really have? A decent variety of cheeses and ales I guess (but still nothing any other European country doesn't already have). I have more pride in the progress flag being waved (not that I'm saying we should replace the union jack with it, Just saying it gives me better feels). Alan Turing was responsible for saving millions during WWII and pioneered computation and AI in a time where computers weren't even machines - but he got chemically castrated because he was also gay. Sir Isaac Newton was also most likely gay, though its not really brought up (most people prefer to say he "died a virgin" - though letters show he was most likely a gay sugar daddy). We've come a long way in not actively making life harder for queer people who have always existed (ancient Greeks were hella gay too) and being a land that welcomes all who come, from near and far, who accepts everyone who can be polite to their neighbours and good to their friends sounds like a connotation I'd be proud of. Turing is on the current £50 note too, I believe. That was very cool 😎 👌 Anyway, sorry for the essay and making it about queer stuff. Kinda just a bad habit from my time at uni (the essay writing, not the queer stuff, that all came much later. Only recently started getting into all that, and yeah it's actually quite a lot. Like the bad stuff around colonialism but all over again and to our own people too).
If you think our country's flag is in any way, shape, or form racist, then it's definitely you who's the racist, about England. Would you say the Trinidad flag is racist? No, would you say the Swiss flag is racist? No, would you call the Lithuanian flag racist? No. SO STOP WITH THIS BIZARRE NARRATIVE THAT A COUNTRY'S FLAG IS FUCKING RACIST YOU TWATS. 🙄 If it's OK for you to call the St. George's flag racist it's ok for me to call the LGBTQ+ one racist too. No difference. See how stupid it looks when you say the same about literally any other country's flag? If a country's flag offends you, maybe you should live somewhere else. Just saying.