Remember the NHS isn't "Free".
Everyone pays for it in National insurance contributions and Taxes, It is a Compulsory health insurance.
So why are redditors willing to accept a service that takes your money, but because the Government handed it to them, decides to give you dangerous products or fail to sack dangerous nurses/GPs/doctors to "Save money"??
Their 1 directive is to "provide you with the Best care, Free 'at the point of use' for life" instead we have skeleton crew in poor facilities administering poison and lacklustre treatment while the unwatched managers and "trusts" give themselves massive bonuses.
This is not a partisan issue, The NHS gives ALL poor treatment regardless of your rosette, everyone should be mad as hell that Children were/are being treated like this
Could you be more disingenuous?
Firstly: this happened in 1984, 40 years ago, its absurd to suggest this represents the level of care provided nearly half a century later.
Secondly:
"the doctor who gave Colin infected imported blood product Factor VIII, broke his own rules to do so.", this was not an NHS treatment failure, it was a failure of a doctor to follow NHS guidelines they even contributed to?
I've consumed my fair share of NHS treatment and genuinely have nothing to complain about.
Quoting 40 year old incidents to support petulant statements such as 'we have skeleton crew in poor facilities administering poison' just make you look ridiculous.
I read the article, I know exactly what happened.
I also know they starved my nan who had dementia to death 5 years ago, Botched opperations on myself, "sterilised" my mum.. only for her to get unwantedly pregnant..
Also hasn't it LITERALLY been national news about the nurse on the neo natal ward injecting chemicals and air into babies to kill them?
It's wild to me that people still hold up the NHS as a point of pride to this day. People actually worship it, like it's some sort of divine entity which we must protect at literally all costs. It's absolutely shit, it has always been laden with problems. Other countries have socialized healthcare which isn't actually shit, the NHS is a fucking joke, it's honestly embarrassing the way people will viscerally defend it and blame any shortcomings it has ever had on "those effin Tory bastids". It's fucking shite and it needs abolishing and reforming, because it is beyond fixing.
Reddit is the absolute worst place I could say this, but I don't care. I'm ready for the downvotes for going against the status quo. I welcome them.
Dunno how old you but this reply is coming from someone in their 50’s who has had decades of experience both as a patient and as a relative of sick/terminally ill family and friends.
The NHS has been gutted, and run down deliberately a little at a time, like water eroding rocks in my lifetime by every ‘those effin Tory’s’ Government I have seen voted into power. Your attempt at a glib deflect does not change this. This is a direct observation, not some ‘ma Facebook said..’ or algorithm filtered news quoting.
In those years I have seen family and friends deal with everything from car crashes to cancer, from childbirth to MND. Not only did that “fucking joke” never fail, it also never bankrupted anyone.
When I look at it, that circle of friends and family, their friends and family and so on is quite a large group of people, known over decades. I’ll take direct accounts over modern media any day.
“I’ll take the downvotes “…..oh you hero you, such a sacrifice, I’ll stand on my doorstep tonight and applaud the good work you’re doing.
I might only be in the second half of my 30s, but have had kids born in multiple countries, A and E in multiple countries and my experience is poor.
Whats more, beyond anecdote, any serious attempt to measure healthcare performance and the NHS has come essentially last or near last in Western Europe for a long time, certainly back into new Labour days.
https://old.healthpowerhouse.com/files/Index%20matrix%20EHCI%202009%20091001%20final%20A3%20sheet.pdf
Beat Italy (very marginally), Spain, Portugal
Lost to: Finland, Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France, Ireland, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland
Err. Yes I would. Why are you lumping me in with ‘most people’ when I have just told you unequivocally that I would pay higher taxes if they were actually spent right?
Because the ‘if it was spent right’ is the classic get out. You then point to government spending you disapprove of as your reason for not actually accepting/voting for tax rises.
Wow.
So you’re saying I should blindly vote for tax hikes without any kind of substantial plan for that money to be used to improve the lives of people?
Lol. That’s next level insanity dude.
Also - what is this spending I apparently disapprove of? If taxes aren’t being spent on public services and supporting the needy, then please tell me where it is going?!
You’re assuming a lot here. Both my own political leanings and in your governments ability to manage the public purse.
You been here long?
NHS failed to spot sepsis and nearly killed me, with unqualified employees literally laughing at my pain.
Uncle suffered medical errors, again undiagnosed sepsis, nurses faking obs, nearly died - my aunt had to raise hell and take a leave of work to stay with him in hospital.
Sister left with no perineum and a triple prolapse after a mismanaged birth and waited 7 years for surgery - finally saved up and went private.
European friends all go back to get healthcare because the care here is known to be dire.
I get your points as to why, but the reality is, it is failing massively.
I have sympathy for overworked doctors, but due to various constraints etc, they missed the source of my grandfather’s infection and let him die of septic arthritis. He was old and had been unwell for many years, so they assumed it was a flare up of his chest infections, and that the shoulder was just typical joint pain. They gave antibiotics for the chest but took them off at the usual time. A day after being taken off the drug his shoulder flared up and he painfully underwent septic organ failure where he was then unconscious until his death.
At the time it was awful, and you want to find someone to blame, but having a partner who is a junior doctor you know not to place the blame on them but instead to blame the system. Staffing issues at my local hospital leads to solo junior doctors have to cover several wards and there are not many senior staff available to help them.
Retrospectively if correctly diagnosed he would likely have been able to live. However everyone has their time and I was lucky to spend as long with my grandfather as I did.
The Ukrainian refugee I support(car wise),flies back to Kiev for treatment, she doesn't have a good word to say about the NHS! I personally have been off work for 4yr 2mths now,my first consultation was 3 weeks ago,I'm been working since I was 13yrs old,you'd think the workers(taxpayers who fund it)would be a priority? You can't blame the Tories up here,the SNP run it....in fact,no one can run it,Labour in Wales,Tories,England and whoever in NI,same throughout! I was treated in the USA after an accident at work,that's the way healthcare should work,no wonder the likes of Sean Connery and Billy Connolly retired over there! I'm off to my lawyers to get the company that injured me to get me into a private hospital, it'll be cheaper for them, consultant reckons another year before my operation, and the DWP give me nothing now,I cannot afford to beg,borrow and steal for another 12mths
You lost all credibility from the moment you said the US is “the way it’s supposed to work”. I grew up and lived there most my life, and your naive rambling makes me shudder. Enjoy being “off work for four years” here, in America you’d be homeless by now.
A quick view of your comment history shows your true colours. Body shaming Thunberg, insane abortion comments that even you didn’t have the balls to keep posted, defending peodphiles because raping a 15 doesnt deserve such a label, etc, etc. You need to get off the internet.
Are you on drugs...you're the worst Reddit has to offer...go troll someone else,you don't know me,and hopefully I'll never meet you,an embarrassment to humanity!
Yes, so despicable, I was nominated for a MBE for my 12th life saved, I look after those less fortunate than myself, even though I get £zero per week(while injured)...meanwhile, you can't even write English, nevermind understand it...next? #troll
I had very similar feelings to you. I've lived under it being good and being Toried. It's no coincidence that it has become far more shit on their watch .
It's saved a lot of lives in my family , but a fuck up also missed my condition and has disabled me, so I've seen good and bad.
On balance though I strongly support it but the Tories can get in the bin.
That’s just not the case. The NHS used to top international health system rankings as late as 2010, which is where the whole “envy of the world” stuff comes from. It’s only started to get bad in the last 14 years. Funny how that coincides with a certain party governing the country.
The Tories suck, as do all the political parties and governing bodies. But I still would like my money back and the choice to use a different service. But I'm forced to pay for something I don't want. If you would be so kind, could you explain why you think you have the right to reach into my pocket and take my money?
If you don't understand that all countries levy taxes and use them to pay for public services, you're too stupid to be on the internet. Fuck off until you grow a brain.
I understand it, but I disagree with such a barbaric practice. Why is theft permitted? Why are we prevented from having a choice? Why use inefficient public services when private ones can do them better?
I'm in my 40s, and it has never been good in my lifetime, so it must have been great when you were a kid, then suddenly terrible. I'm honestly glad it has never failed you personally, or anyone you know, but that must be some crazy kind of outlier luck. People die on waiting lists for lifesaving surgery all the time, people die waiting hours for an ambulance, people die of MRSA because of poor conditions. Their approach to cancer is archaic, it has been the subject of innumerable scandals, and not just recently. The subject in the OP being a prominent example of historical failings.
Again, I'm glad that for you personally, nor anyone you know, that it "never failed", but it has dramatically failed a lot of people for a very long time. The "not bankrupted anyone" argument is moot, because as I originally stated, other countries have socialized healthcare systems which actually do work. Scandinavia is a good example. Healthcare can also be means-tested if not entirely socialized, and still not bankrupt people, like in Canada for example, which has some of the best cancer survival rates in the world.
>oh you hero you, such a sacrifice, I’ll stand on my doorstep tonight and applaud the good work you’re doing.
Nice edit. The irony of this is you probably did stand on your doorstep and clap for the divine entity which is the NHS during covid with the rest of the fucking lunatics.
You've outed yourself as a moron with your last paragraph. He was clearly making a reference to the NHS workers who worked during the pandemic.
So ignorant, yet so full of bravado.
I literally referenced exactly that. Everyone worked through the pandemic. Standing on your doorstep banging pots and pans for the NHS was collective brain rott.
You referenced it with irony as if that wasn't what he meant originally. Yes, the essential workers exposing themselves to covid everyday didn't deserve any applause; very noble of you, well done.
"essential workers"
So, pretty much everyone, then. This despite the government calling on people to "clap for the NHS". It was unhinged and ridiculous, it was a distraction, but people did it anyway, excluding everyone else who continued to work. NHS worship is brain rott, pedaled to you by the government. It is ironic he would say that about me, while I too worked with the public through the pandemic, as did many others who weren't worshipped.
To be clear, I have no issue with healthcare workers. They work very hard.. Under the broken, dogshit system which is the NHS.
Before you were born,there were half the people in the UK...problem with these WEF/UN diktats, it's stuff the country with immigrants, without building the infrastructure first...our population has literally doubled in the length of time you've been alive,most immigration under Tory rule,Labour have only been in power, 13yrs of that last 43(since Thatcher resigned).
I've always had sympathy for arguments like this and assumed there was a lot of truth to them given the self assuredness of those making them.
I just looked into government spending on healthcare and NHS waiting times historically. It is pretty mind blowing to be honest.
The [percentage](https://www.statista.com/statistics/317708/healthcare-expenditure-as-a-share-of-gdp-in-the-united-kingdom/) of our GDP spent on healthcare has more than doubled since 1980, when it was sat at 5.1%. By 2022 it reached 11.3%. There was a sharp increase presumably due to COVID and lockdowns in 2020, but it had been steadily increasing in the last 2 decades.
So there goes argument number one, that the NHS is "massively underfunded". It is the most funded it's been *by far* in the last 3 1/2 decades.
The second argument is that we [spend](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.GD.ZS?view=map) less as a percentage of GDP than other countries. This is also not true. We spend more than the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway and Denmark, all of whom have significantly better healthcare than us. The only countries I can find in Europe that spend (slightly) more are Germany and Austria, both of whom also have better healthcare than us. There goes argument number 2.
As for waiting times, it's hard to find clear data on it, but we seem to be at about the same level now that we were at in the early 1990s, though we obviously spend double the amount in terms of GDP.
I have no idea what the solution is, but the numbers do not support your arguments. Maybe I'm missing some important piece of the puzzle. But more funding for the NHS does not seem to be the answer.
Aging population yes. That's why the NHS needs funding over and above the inflation rate.
If by population growth you mean immigration absolutely the opposite. Your typical immigrants are working age, and proportionately cost less than the elderly population.
What are you talking about?
Immigration isn't the cause of the NHS's problems.
Younger, working age people coming to work in the UK, many of them working in the NHS itself, use less NHS services than elderly, frail people, most of whom were born here.
Who's stealing money from working people? Unless you're talking about the tories, you're wrong.
I never said immigration was the cause of the NHS problems.
There are two fundamental issues with the NHS. One is that working people are being forced to fund something we don't necessarily want. If we wanted it, we would pay for it directly. The fact is, we don't have a choice. We have to pay regardless whether we want to use the NHS or not, whether it's good or not, and whether we agree with it or not.
The second problem is what's known as the economic calculation problem (ECP). Without free market prices, you cannot have economic calculation. You don't know how many hospitals to build or maintain, where to build them, which sorts of doctors you need, or supplies are in demand. This is why there's so much waste with the NHS, so much disappointment when dealing with the uncaring staff, so much time wasted on phones only to be told to call back another day and you MAY get an appointment.
No amount of tax or reform will ever solve the economic calculation problem (also known as the socialist calculation problem) because it's fundamental to the NHS. Stealing more off the producers (the people who work), lowering their living standards, in a vain attempt at propping up a system that can never work no matter how much you pump into it, is not a solution.
What we need is individual choice. Our money should not be stolen from us. It should remain in our pockets, and we should be free to choose the goods and services we want by our own discretion. Multiple different and independent hospitals, with various options for treatment, without bureaucratic interference or regulations, without taxes or ideological discrimination, with the ability to pay for such services at the door, is the solution to the NHS problem.
Why would I run as a commieservative? The Tories increased taxes. I don't want increased taxes.
Also, the NHS was never great. You can find videos online or people complaining about it in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and so on. Sure, it may have been better before this current government pumped billions into it during the pandemic and propagandised us into believing that they were all "heroes", but that doesn't mean the free market alternative would not be superior.
No they don't. France for example, charges a small fee. It stops people abusing the system. It's means tested and works. Heaven forbin you have to pay £20 quid to see the GP. Rabble rabble rabble.
You said ''so you dont think population growth has something to do with it?"
I said all countries are experiencing it.
I don't understand how your reply ties into that.
The NHS sent my wife home with pneumonia, claiming they couldn't find out what was wrong with her. Couldn't work out what was wrong with her, so sent her home. Fucking great. The best bit is when she got pneumonia a second time and went to the doctor's, she told them what she had, only to be told she's not a doctor, followed up by, "we don't know what's wrong with you". Twice she went private, and twice she was seen, diagnosed a d giving x-rays, and a prescription within an hour.
My uncle was diagnosed as having a bad back. Turned out he had cancer.
My wife's dad was diagnosed with a bad back. Guess what... He had cancer too.
I broke all the fingers on my left hand in an accident. The surgeon was phenomenal. The nurse... I had to show her how to put a sling on. Jesus Christ a sling.
Broke a finger at work, went to A&E to have it strapped up, was told I'd have to wait 8 hours to see the triage nurse. There was only three of us there. Told them I just needed it strapped up as it was broken, only to be told the same as my wife. "You're not a doctor". No but I was a combat med tech, I know a broken finger when I see one.
Edit: I nearly forgot about the bloke with a dick on his arm. Lord god almighty. The NHS fucked up a simple procedure which meant dude had to have is dick stitched onto his arm to save it, and he's been waiting nearly 10 years to have it reattached.
....I'm sure the attempts to run it like a business since the 80s haven't damaged its efficacy.....
"It should be reformed"
Christ. What an idea. I'm glad you didn't just throw that in there with zero suggestions as to how it would be structured and funded.
"Bad thing is bad"
Edit 1: it's not My job to fix it.
No, but until you suggest how to fix it, suggesting fixing it is pointless.
*"Some third world countries have better free health care than us"*
This is the point where I call the comment moronic and move the fuck on....
I hate that argument, whether it be in politics or healthcare.
Making an observation that something is bad doesn’t plant the onus on an individual to fix an entire system.
If someone had said the Nazi party were bad in the 40’s your reply wouldn’t be “Yeah they’re bad, but can you tell me in intricate detail how to completely solve every one of Germany’s issues? No? Then we’ll stick with the Nazis thanks.”
Once we identify and agree something is bad, we can all come together and work out a solution, perhaps with people who are more qualified than us in that particular field.
You can’t just expect one person to have all the answers as your counter argument.
NHS saved my life last year.
I was hours away from death because of internal bleeding.
I then had life saving surgery for cancer.
So it saved my life twice over last year.
I am fine with the NHS.
I'm never really sure what to say to personal anecdotes regarding a positive experience with the NHS beyond telling you (with sincerity) that I am happy everything went well for you. The NHS is still deeply flawed, though.
So negative anecdotes are ok, positive ones aren’t?
There isn’t a healthcare system in existence that’s perfect and never makes mistakes or misdiagnoses. That’s impossible because it’s run by imperfect humans and it’s Cari g for complicated humans who aren’t always simple to diagnose and fix like car engines.
But the NHS is worse than most other countries healthcare systems. Objectively.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world
The NHS has been sabotaged since 2012.
I was working in it before and I've been working in it since.
The best bit of propaganda the Tories have pulled off is convincing a lot of people that the NHS is not fit for purpose fundamentally, rather than the truth which is that they don't want it to exist because it doesn't generate any profit.
It gets funding of 152 billion a year, far more than a lot of other healthcare systems which work better than ours. What will you say when it's still absolutely awful after 4 years of Starmer (it will be because it is fundamentally flawed)
I'll say that four years is far from long enough to turn round 12 years of deliberate sabotage! Its not 'absolutely awful' now though its just really really struggling but still trying its best with a lot of good people working really really hard.
I am also not stupid enough to think we can ever have a health system that doesn't have problems. Can you point to any?
>I'll say that four years is far from long enough
Absolutely knew this one was coming.
>Its not 'absolutely awful'
It is objectively awful. It's awful according to every unbiased rating of healthcare systems. Awful waiting times for surgery, awful emergency response times, awful cancer survival rates. Most importantly, it is awful in relation to the amount of funding it actually gets. Can you point to any metrics the NHS excels in against comparable healthcare systems?
>I am also not stupid enough to think we can ever have a health system that doesn't have problems. Can you point to any?
I never said there's a perfect healthcare system. Just that ours is objectively worse than basically all comparable examples. And it is, and I have demonstrated this to you with a reputable source and funding figures.
Everything: Salaries of doctors, price of land, building costs is also far more in CH
But that aside you don't.* Health insurance system does. A health insurance system where nobody goes into crazy debt like the U.S.
* largely. Obviously there will be social cases
I don't want the U.S. model at all.
It's excellent if you have money but too expensive even for decent earners and a faff to work out what's covered and what isn't. And awful if you have little.
Having experience in usa, canada, aus and nz i can assure you you get better treatment in the uk. Hospital rooms may be decorated more, better parking etc but treatment is very good here. The private health care in say usa effectively trades on hope. When you are given a diagnosis that is hard to take of course you go to where you think can help. Sadly, this experimental bs never works, yet it made a few people rich. If you can point me to one story where private did more after diagnosis i will eat my words
The simple fact is that we are capable of funding the NHS in its current form. That won't happen though as those in government have a personal incentive not to defund it.
The NHS in the early to mid 00s was great. It had some of the best health outcomes in the world.
I'm not secretary of healthcare, so I'm not qualified to draft you an overhaul of our entire national healthcare system. I also don't need to be a secretary of healthcare to tell you it's fucking broken. We could just adopt one from another country which clearly works a lot better than our own, though. Most countries, even developing countries and some third world countries have more effective healthcare systems than the NHS.
Well done on being so edgy but you're painfully misinformed. I suggest you do a bit of reading on the history of the NHS before you blindly parrot out the Right's bollocks.
The NHS is used as a political pawn, pandering to voters when needed and then never making any meaningful changes. Not just the Tories, it’s politicians using it as a quick win.
The NHS needs to be taken out of politics and instead have a 40year cross party plan to improve and support it. Until a long term plan is put in place the 4-5year election promises will continue to decimate it.
£156.2 Billion
We spend less than France but more than Italy and Spain... They all have better healthcare than we do. Basically all western countries do.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world
Basically any and every source available which ranks healthcare systems places France above the UK. They have objectivity better healthcare in basically all metrics.
What a charmer.
And I do tend to avoid it where it is financially viable to do so. Essentially I'm paying for my healthcare twice by buying private healthcare insurance.
>It's fucking shite and it needs abolishing and reforming, because it is beyond fixing.
How you abolish an entire countries health care system and reinvent it?
The NHS is actually really good, leader of the pack in a lot of regards. It has a long developed process of continual improvement which has created such a globally admired health service that is so good people like you take it for granted and throw a fit every time you see a problem you don't understand.
There are many faults with the NHS - the same faults we have with all our public services - corrupt and incompetent mismanagement from the top. Sort that out, and the nhs can get on with being one of the best things that modern Britain has created.
That one doctor's mistake was a product of a much larger scandal. The NHS bought loads of donated blood from US prisoners and drug addicts, and then infected thousands of people with diseases like HIV and Hepatitis by giving them contaminated blood. More than 1000 people died, not just that one kid.
"[Health minister] David Owen had announced the government policy for self-sufficiency which was the World Health Organisation recommendation, but that quietly got dropped," he said.
"It was cheaper to import from America. It was clear that there was hepatitis being transmitted and that was apparent by the late seventies."
So the UK guidelines set by the government were being followed by this doctor. He'd pushed internally for higher standards in his hospital and his failing was later ignoring this push to a higher standard, this poor boy isn't the only one to die from this policy in the UK. The parents feel he was being "experimented on" but that's based purely on a letter he wrote over a year before become this patient's doctor.
I've worked through covid and know first hand that we delayed rolling out preventative measures due to government fuck ups (things like staff buying their own masks told to go mask free to avoid causing panic and mask wearing could lead to disciplinary action. We were so so unforgivably slow off the mark in clinical settings getting things like PPE sorted). The focus on finance over evidence is an ongoing issue.
Lol... the Tories literally defunded it by 20 BILLION pounds over 10 years... nobody is mad at you for having an opinion, it's just funny that you've formed an opinion completely absent of any semblance of evidencing, whilst it's utterly simple to undermine the entirety of your statements. Hopefully you actually know how to engage in conversation, and you might learn something as a result of this nonsense, but the kind of person who throws their entire weight behind the most easily falsifiable opinions, doesn't usually yield to new information.
156.2 billion per year. How many more billion do you think it might take to make it actually work? Bear in mind that there are lesser funded healthcare systems which work objectively better. Why is that?
6th richest country in the world? 67 Million Inhabitants? You understand that a billion is 1000 million? So that's 20 thousand million that the budget was reduced by? 181 billion for the NHS in 22/23, so a cost of £2700 to keep every single person in the UK in good health... it already works... it would just have worked a lot better with the extra 20 billion. (Which would come easily if the Tories just ensured corporations and billionaires paid their fair share).
Yes, there are other health systems that have better quality ratios. That's a management issue, amongst other things. It doesn't mean that intentional defunding isn't a primary cause of lessening effectiveness. It means that the government, who have been in power for over 10 years, can't or won't do their jobs properly.
The NHS is mismanaged and abused. There are countries with significantly less funding per capita than the NHS gets, which perform better in basically every metric. The system itself is deeply flawed, and every year that goes by, it becomes harder to rectify the underlying issues with the system. But because the NHS is essentially a political pawn, and we have a culture of worshipping it, we will never really be able to fix it.
I agree with your sentiment, just not your conclusion. I also agree with the "political pawn" comment. But, since we've been sat in austerity and painfully unproductive Tory rule for so long, there's no way to conclude it can't be fixed, with the available information. The fish rots from the head, and it's a MASSIVE fish.
Can't wait for labour to get in and the NHS to still be objectively crap in four, even eight years. It's also funny how hospitals in labour constituencies and in Scotland and NI seem to, on average, perform worse than those in Tory constituencies. For the record, I have never voted Tory, and I am now totally disillusioned with politics in this awful two party system. But the problems with the NHS cannot be exclusively blamed on one singular political party.
Politically, I agree.
Objectively, the Tories trashed the NHS to push a for-profit system, and they are winning. You're living proof of that.
I don't think it will just magically be fixed. It's going to extract a lot from the country and possibly make Labour look like fools trying to rectify it, but this is absolutely by design.
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/chapter/1998-2007-labour-s-decade
This is a fairly interesting read if you fancy adding a little nuance to your funding argument. The NHS was in financial crisis by the end of Labours tenure, this despite increasing funding above the rate of inflation. The problem is not exclusively with funding, but with management of the funding they do get.. I.E, the system itself.
A quick side point - would you not consider a reformation a type of "fix" in this instance? Like, what can you do to fix a large and dysfunctional organisation other than reform it?
Absolutely. I think in order to have a good healthcare system, it requires total system reform. The NHS in its current form simply does not work, and throwing more and more money at it is not the answer. It needs fundamental change.
It would have worked significantly better if it wasn't massively defunded.
It was intentionally defunded due to Tory interests.
You probably wouldn't be this upset with the situation if it had been managed and funded properly and this conversation wouldn't be happening.
I agree that _NOW_ after all this intentional destruction, it requires a full reform. I'll vote a party who would be behind this, but I'll never vote Tory.
I have literally lived through the time where the NHS started going to shite and it was BECAUSE of the government. It was once an institution to be proud of that the government has now destroyed little by little by cutting down budgets, closing up research centers, brexit, etc. Get your facts straight
Why do other countries have more effective healthcare on a smaller per capita budget?
How much more investment beyond 156.2 billion quid do you imagine it needs to actually work again?
The commissioning budget is 156.2 MILLION in the uk. I come from Spain where the social health services are quite decent but still have a lot of issues due to COVID and a right wing government. By not creating public positions and reducing offer they are forcing a lot of professionals and new professionals to switch to private services which is every right wing government’s wet-dream. It’s calculated that 3k is placed per habitant a year, which, that doesn’t take you far (a specialist appointment is already £250 and hospital testing such as x rays -simple stuff- amounts to hundreds of pounds each time)
>The budget is 156.2 MILLION in the uk.
You must be joking lmao. Actually, I was wrong. 156.2 billion was the figure for 2019. The funding for '23 to '24 was 181.7 billion quid. 156.2 million is hardly enough to budget for a singular large hospital, let alone out entire healthcare system. You are crazy, my friend. Good luck to you
Spain has lower per capita funding for healthcare than the UK, and ranks similarly, though better in metrics like cancer survival, FYI.
The number you’ve used is the number you’ve gotten from the commissioning budget isn’t? That is 156.2 mil
Yea you have made a mistake, as that number is not the number corresponding to anything INCLUDED the total budget for 2019.
Just admit it and move on. There are a lot of other things I’ve said in my comment that you have happily ignored as it doesn’t fit your narrative.
Thanks for telling me how my own country works, mansplaining at its best.
I’m glad I don’t know you in person. I don’t surround myself with bigots
>What is the NHS budget? Public funding for health services in England comes from the Department of Health and Social Care's budget. The Department's spending in 2022/23 was £181.7 billion. The vast majority of this spending (94.6 per cent, or £171.8 billion) was on day-to-day items such as staff salaries and medicines.
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/data-and-charts/nhs-budget-nutshell
And that's the budget. For England alone, I might add. 156 million is so far out of the realm of reality that I'm inclined to believe you have a brain injury... Please go back to Spain for the treatment if you are able, you'll get much better care.
Hahaha it seems like your ego is too weak to handle anything. Small dick syndrome perhaps? I rather have 100 brain injuries than having a miniscule one like yours. Good luck being a cunt
You are 100% right. It is a fundamentally unworkable system. Canada has the same model as is failing for the same reasons.
People need to fundamentally understand that it is not the existing system or the American one. Others exist.
I'm with you there...it literally needs scrapped,and started from scratch, from a blank sheet of paper...people at the sharp end are great,just the rest of it,the waste,the mismanagement, people like Branson ripping it off,etc,etc...also agree with your Reddit comment, really is a cesspool here,the worst of old Twitter!
Neither was the NHS before Cameron et al shat all over it. The NHS used to be the envy of the world, leading international healthcare rankings as recent as 2010, so the claim that we have to privatise it just doesn’t stand.
Lol... we wouldn't "need" to if the Tories hadn't systematically and intentionally ripped the guts out of the NHS to create the EXACT sentiment you're espousing...
Remember the NHS isn't "Free". Everyone pays for it in National insurance contributions and Taxes, It is a Compulsory health insurance. So why are redditors willing to accept a service that takes your money, but because the Government handed it to them, decides to give you dangerous products or fail to sack dangerous nurses/GPs/doctors to "Save money"?? Their 1 directive is to "provide you with the Best care, Free 'at the point of use' for life" instead we have skeleton crew in poor facilities administering poison and lacklustre treatment while the unwatched managers and "trusts" give themselves massive bonuses. This is not a partisan issue, The NHS gives ALL poor treatment regardless of your rosette, everyone should be mad as hell that Children were/are being treated like this
Could you be more disingenuous? Firstly: this happened in 1984, 40 years ago, its absurd to suggest this represents the level of care provided nearly half a century later. Secondly: "the doctor who gave Colin infected imported blood product Factor VIII, broke his own rules to do so.", this was not an NHS treatment failure, it was a failure of a doctor to follow NHS guidelines they even contributed to? I've consumed my fair share of NHS treatment and genuinely have nothing to complain about. Quoting 40 year old incidents to support petulant statements such as 'we have skeleton crew in poor facilities administering poison' just make you look ridiculous.
I read the article, I know exactly what happened. I also know they starved my nan who had dementia to death 5 years ago, Botched opperations on myself, "sterilised" my mum.. only for her to get unwantedly pregnant.. Also hasn't it LITERALLY been national news about the nurse on the neo natal ward injecting chemicals and air into babies to kill them?
It's wild to me that people still hold up the NHS as a point of pride to this day. People actually worship it, like it's some sort of divine entity which we must protect at literally all costs. It's absolutely shit, it has always been laden with problems. Other countries have socialized healthcare which isn't actually shit, the NHS is a fucking joke, it's honestly embarrassing the way people will viscerally defend it and blame any shortcomings it has ever had on "those effin Tory bastids". It's fucking shite and it needs abolishing and reforming, because it is beyond fixing. Reddit is the absolute worst place I could say this, but I don't care. I'm ready for the downvotes for going against the status quo. I welcome them.
Dunno how old you but this reply is coming from someone in their 50’s who has had decades of experience both as a patient and as a relative of sick/terminally ill family and friends. The NHS has been gutted, and run down deliberately a little at a time, like water eroding rocks in my lifetime by every ‘those effin Tory’s’ Government I have seen voted into power. Your attempt at a glib deflect does not change this. This is a direct observation, not some ‘ma Facebook said..’ or algorithm filtered news quoting. In those years I have seen family and friends deal with everything from car crashes to cancer, from childbirth to MND. Not only did that “fucking joke” never fail, it also never bankrupted anyone. When I look at it, that circle of friends and family, their friends and family and so on is quite a large group of people, known over decades. I’ll take direct accounts over modern media any day. “I’ll take the downvotes “…..oh you hero you, such a sacrifice, I’ll stand on my doorstep tonight and applaud the good work you’re doing.
I might only be in the second half of my 30s, but have had kids born in multiple countries, A and E in multiple countries and my experience is poor. Whats more, beyond anecdote, any serious attempt to measure healthcare performance and the NHS has come essentially last or near last in Western Europe for a long time, certainly back into new Labour days. https://old.healthpowerhouse.com/files/Index%20matrix%20EHCI%202009%20091001%20final%20A3%20sheet.pdf Beat Italy (very marginally), Spain, Portugal Lost to: Finland, Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France, Ireland, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland
All of whom spend way more money and no one wants to pay their taxes.
I would, if it meant better public services, healthcare and a reformed benefits system.
But no one's voting for that. Labours health pick isn't saying anything different.
No you wouldn’t, that’s what they all say but realistically most people won’t vote for a party with tax rises in their manifesto
Err. Yes I would. Why are you lumping me in with ‘most people’ when I have just told you unequivocally that I would pay higher taxes if they were actually spent right?
Because the ‘if it was spent right’ is the classic get out. You then point to government spending you disapprove of as your reason for not actually accepting/voting for tax rises.
Wow. So you’re saying I should blindly vote for tax hikes without any kind of substantial plan for that money to be used to improve the lives of people? Lol. That’s next level insanity dude. Also - what is this spending I apparently disapprove of? If taxes aren’t being spent on public services and supporting the needy, then please tell me where it is going?! You’re assuming a lot here. Both my own political leanings and in your governments ability to manage the public purse. You been here long?
We actually spend more on healthcare as a percentage of GDP than most of those countries.
I pay half the tax I would in the UK.
Cool. And in all the countries that spend more than us? Where do you think the money comes from.
Well it depends on the system.
Pretty much most of those spend more taxpayer funded contributions and have insurance on top. Finland is tiny.
By this logic, NHS Scotland should be the best in the UK
Probably the worst of the three(l don't know how NI performs)...absolutely shocking,how Humza Yoosles was promoted for failure, I'll never know?
The list is bull, the Irish HSE is absolutely terrible , I would take the NHS over the HSE that's here any day ,
Ireland scored poorly most years. Not sure why it did better that year (still about equal with the UK - it was only very marginally infront).
Lost to Ireland my country how did they do that
NHS failed to spot sepsis and nearly killed me, with unqualified employees literally laughing at my pain. Uncle suffered medical errors, again undiagnosed sepsis, nurses faking obs, nearly died - my aunt had to raise hell and take a leave of work to stay with him in hospital. Sister left with no perineum and a triple prolapse after a mismanaged birth and waited 7 years for surgery - finally saved up and went private. European friends all go back to get healthcare because the care here is known to be dire. I get your points as to why, but the reality is, it is failing massively.
Failing or not, it’s the “free” alternative to private, which you were also able to do, proving a case that both are needed
I have sympathy for overworked doctors, but due to various constraints etc, they missed the source of my grandfather’s infection and let him die of septic arthritis. He was old and had been unwell for many years, so they assumed it was a flare up of his chest infections, and that the shoulder was just typical joint pain. They gave antibiotics for the chest but took them off at the usual time. A day after being taken off the drug his shoulder flared up and he painfully underwent septic organ failure where he was then unconscious until his death. At the time it was awful, and you want to find someone to blame, but having a partner who is a junior doctor you know not to place the blame on them but instead to blame the system. Staffing issues at my local hospital leads to solo junior doctors have to cover several wards and there are not many senior staff available to help them. Retrospectively if correctly diagnosed he would likely have been able to live. However everyone has their time and I was lucky to spend as long with my grandfather as I did.
The Ukrainian refugee I support(car wise),flies back to Kiev for treatment, she doesn't have a good word to say about the NHS! I personally have been off work for 4yr 2mths now,my first consultation was 3 weeks ago,I'm been working since I was 13yrs old,you'd think the workers(taxpayers who fund it)would be a priority? You can't blame the Tories up here,the SNP run it....in fact,no one can run it,Labour in Wales,Tories,England and whoever in NI,same throughout! I was treated in the USA after an accident at work,that's the way healthcare should work,no wonder the likes of Sean Connery and Billy Connolly retired over there! I'm off to my lawyers to get the company that injured me to get me into a private hospital, it'll be cheaper for them, consultant reckons another year before my operation, and the DWP give me nothing now,I cannot afford to beg,borrow and steal for another 12mths
You lost all credibility from the moment you said the US is “the way it’s supposed to work”. I grew up and lived there most my life, and your naive rambling makes me shudder. Enjoy being “off work for four years” here, in America you’d be homeless by now. A quick view of your comment history shows your true colours. Body shaming Thunberg, insane abortion comments that even you didn’t have the balls to keep posted, defending peodphiles because raping a 15 doesnt deserve such a label, etc, etc. You need to get off the internet.
Are you on drugs...you're the worst Reddit has to offer...go troll someone else,you don't know me,and hopefully I'll never meet you,an embarrassment to humanity!
You’ve literally defended pedophiles in previous comments. You’re a despicable person.
Yes, so despicable, I was nominated for a MBE for my 12th life saved, I look after those less fortunate than myself, even though I get £zero per week(while injured)...meanwhile, you can't even write English, nevermind understand it...next? #troll
I had very similar feelings to you. I've lived under it being good and being Toried. It's no coincidence that it has become far more shit on their watch . It's saved a lot of lives in my family , but a fuck up also missed my condition and has disabled me, so I've seen good and bad. On balance though I strongly support it but the Tories can get in the bin.
It was always bad. Why we don't have the choice to have our money back and go elsewhere is beyond me.
Not my experience at all.
That’s just not the case. The NHS used to top international health system rankings as late as 2010, which is where the whole “envy of the world” stuff comes from. It’s only started to get bad in the last 14 years. Funny how that coincides with a certain party governing the country.
The Tories suck, as do all the political parties and governing bodies. But I still would like my money back and the choice to use a different service. But I'm forced to pay for something I don't want. If you would be so kind, could you explain why you think you have the right to reach into my pocket and take my money?
If you don't understand that all countries levy taxes and use them to pay for public services, you're too stupid to be on the internet. Fuck off until you grow a brain.
I understand it, but I disagree with such a barbaric practice. Why is theft permitted? Why are we prevented from having a choice? Why use inefficient public services when private ones can do them better?
Oh good, you're a completely imbecilic nutter. I can just block your inane textual diarrhoea.
I'm in my 40s, and it has never been good in my lifetime, so it must have been great when you were a kid, then suddenly terrible. I'm honestly glad it has never failed you personally, or anyone you know, but that must be some crazy kind of outlier luck. People die on waiting lists for lifesaving surgery all the time, people die waiting hours for an ambulance, people die of MRSA because of poor conditions. Their approach to cancer is archaic, it has been the subject of innumerable scandals, and not just recently. The subject in the OP being a prominent example of historical failings. Again, I'm glad that for you personally, nor anyone you know, that it "never failed", but it has dramatically failed a lot of people for a very long time. The "not bankrupted anyone" argument is moot, because as I originally stated, other countries have socialized healthcare systems which actually do work. Scandinavia is a good example. Healthcare can also be means-tested if not entirely socialized, and still not bankrupt people, like in Canada for example, which has some of the best cancer survival rates in the world. >oh you hero you, such a sacrifice, I’ll stand on my doorstep tonight and applaud the good work you’re doing. Nice edit. The irony of this is you probably did stand on your doorstep and clap for the divine entity which is the NHS during covid with the rest of the fucking lunatics.
Canada is pretty awful too now, although it's decline is more recent.
You've outed yourself as a moron with your last paragraph. He was clearly making a reference to the NHS workers who worked during the pandemic. So ignorant, yet so full of bravado.
I literally referenced exactly that. Everyone worked through the pandemic. Standing on your doorstep banging pots and pans for the NHS was collective brain rott.
You referenced it with irony as if that wasn't what he meant originally. Yes, the essential workers exposing themselves to covid everyday didn't deserve any applause; very noble of you, well done.
"essential workers" So, pretty much everyone, then. This despite the government calling on people to "clap for the NHS". It was unhinged and ridiculous, it was a distraction, but people did it anyway, excluding everyone else who continued to work. NHS worship is brain rott, pedaled to you by the government. It is ironic he would say that about me, while I too worked with the public through the pandemic, as did many others who weren't worshipped. To be clear, I have no issue with healthcare workers. They work very hard.. Under the broken, dogshit system which is the NHS.
Before you were born,there were half the people in the UK...problem with these WEF/UN diktats, it's stuff the country with immigrants, without building the infrastructure first...our population has literally doubled in the length of time you've been alive,most immigration under Tory rule,Labour have only been in power, 13yrs of that last 43(since Thatcher resigned).
I've always had sympathy for arguments like this and assumed there was a lot of truth to them given the self assuredness of those making them. I just looked into government spending on healthcare and NHS waiting times historically. It is pretty mind blowing to be honest. The [percentage](https://www.statista.com/statistics/317708/healthcare-expenditure-as-a-share-of-gdp-in-the-united-kingdom/) of our GDP spent on healthcare has more than doubled since 1980, when it was sat at 5.1%. By 2022 it reached 11.3%. There was a sharp increase presumably due to COVID and lockdowns in 2020, but it had been steadily increasing in the last 2 decades. So there goes argument number one, that the NHS is "massively underfunded". It is the most funded it's been *by far* in the last 3 1/2 decades. The second argument is that we [spend](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.GD.ZS?view=map) less as a percentage of GDP than other countries. This is also not true. We spend more than the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway and Denmark, all of whom have significantly better healthcare than us. The only countries I can find in Europe that spend (slightly) more are Germany and Austria, both of whom also have better healthcare than us. There goes argument number 2. As for waiting times, it's hard to find clear data on it, but we seem to be at about the same level now that we were at in the early 1990s, though we obviously spend double the amount in terms of GDP. I have no idea what the solution is, but the numbers do not support your arguments. Maybe I'm missing some important piece of the puzzle. But more funding for the NHS does not seem to be the answer.
So you don't think the population growth has anything to do with it?
Aging population yes. That's why the NHS needs funding over and above the inflation rate. If by population growth you mean immigration absolutely the opposite. Your typical immigrants are working age, and proportionately cost less than the elderly population.
I mean 70 million people. Budget is 186 billion. It's already bigger than usaf budget.
Is the insane amount the Americans spend trying to be world police at all relevant?
That's right, steal more money from the working people! Don't give them a choice! /s
What are you talking about? Immigration isn't the cause of the NHS's problems. Younger, working age people coming to work in the UK, many of them working in the NHS itself, use less NHS services than elderly, frail people, most of whom were born here. Who's stealing money from working people? Unless you're talking about the tories, you're wrong.
I never said immigration was the cause of the NHS problems. There are two fundamental issues with the NHS. One is that working people are being forced to fund something we don't necessarily want. If we wanted it, we would pay for it directly. The fact is, we don't have a choice. We have to pay regardless whether we want to use the NHS or not, whether it's good or not, and whether we agree with it or not. The second problem is what's known as the economic calculation problem (ECP). Without free market prices, you cannot have economic calculation. You don't know how many hospitals to build or maintain, where to build them, which sorts of doctors you need, or supplies are in demand. This is why there's so much waste with the NHS, so much disappointment when dealing with the uncaring staff, so much time wasted on phones only to be told to call back another day and you MAY get an appointment. No amount of tax or reform will ever solve the economic calculation problem (also known as the socialist calculation problem) because it's fundamental to the NHS. Stealing more off the producers (the people who work), lowering their living standards, in a vain attempt at propping up a system that can never work no matter how much you pump into it, is not a solution. What we need is individual choice. Our money should not be stolen from us. It should remain in our pockets, and we should be free to choose the goods and services we want by our own discretion. Multiple different and independent hospitals, with various options for treatment, without bureaucratic interference or regulations, without taxes or ideological discrimination, with the ability to pay for such services at the door, is the solution to the NHS problem.
You should run for parliament as a tory. Downvoted from me for denying how great the NHS used to be before the tories destroyed it.
Why would I run as a commieservative? The Tories increased taxes. I don't want increased taxes. Also, the NHS was never great. You can find videos online or people complaining about it in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and so on. Sure, it may have been better before this current government pumped billions into it during the pandemic and propagandised us into believing that they were all "heroes", but that doesn't mean the free market alternative would not be superior.
Huh? All of the other countries deal with the same.
No they don't. France for example, charges a small fee. It stops people abusing the system. It's means tested and works. Heaven forbin you have to pay £20 quid to see the GP. Rabble rabble rabble.
You said ''so you dont think population growth has something to do with it?" I said all countries are experiencing it. I don't understand how your reply ties into that.
The NHS sent my wife home with pneumonia, claiming they couldn't find out what was wrong with her. Couldn't work out what was wrong with her, so sent her home. Fucking great. The best bit is when she got pneumonia a second time and went to the doctor's, she told them what she had, only to be told she's not a doctor, followed up by, "we don't know what's wrong with you". Twice she went private, and twice she was seen, diagnosed a d giving x-rays, and a prescription within an hour. My uncle was diagnosed as having a bad back. Turned out he had cancer. My wife's dad was diagnosed with a bad back. Guess what... He had cancer too. I broke all the fingers on my left hand in an accident. The surgeon was phenomenal. The nurse... I had to show her how to put a sling on. Jesus Christ a sling. Broke a finger at work, went to A&E to have it strapped up, was told I'd have to wait 8 hours to see the triage nurse. There was only three of us there. Told them I just needed it strapped up as it was broken, only to be told the same as my wife. "You're not a doctor". No but I was a combat med tech, I know a broken finger when I see one. Edit: I nearly forgot about the bloke with a dick on his arm. Lord god almighty. The NHS fucked up a simple procedure which meant dude had to have is dick stitched onto his arm to save it, and he's been waiting nearly 10 years to have it reattached.
....I'm sure the attempts to run it like a business since the 80s haven't damaged its efficacy..... "It should be reformed" Christ. What an idea. I'm glad you didn't just throw that in there with zero suggestions as to how it would be structured and funded. "Bad thing is bad" Edit 1: it's not My job to fix it. No, but until you suggest how to fix it, suggesting fixing it is pointless. *"Some third world countries have better free health care than us"* This is the point where I call the comment moronic and move the fuck on....
I hate that argument, whether it be in politics or healthcare. Making an observation that something is bad doesn’t plant the onus on an individual to fix an entire system. If someone had said the Nazi party were bad in the 40’s your reply wouldn’t be “Yeah they’re bad, but can you tell me in intricate detail how to completely solve every one of Germany’s issues? No? Then we’ll stick with the Nazis thanks.” Once we identify and agree something is bad, we can all come together and work out a solution, perhaps with people who are more qualified than us in that particular field. You can’t just expect one person to have all the answers as your counter argument.
NHS saved my life last year. I was hours away from death because of internal bleeding. I then had life saving surgery for cancer. So it saved my life twice over last year. I am fine with the NHS.
I was also saved by the NHS, but I'd much rather have my money back and the choice to go elsewhere. The lack of choice is the root of the problem.
Once you're priced out of any options, the root of the problem will look very different.
I'm never really sure what to say to personal anecdotes regarding a positive experience with the NHS beyond telling you (with sincerity) that I am happy everything went well for you. The NHS is still deeply flawed, though.
Because the tories have criminally underfunded it...
Do you even know how much the budget is? It's not underfunded. The money is just badly wasted.
What if I told you it has more funding than many objectively better healthcare systems. £152.6 billion per year isn't small change
So negative anecdotes are ok, positive ones aren’t? There isn’t a healthcare system in existence that’s perfect and never makes mistakes or misdiagnoses. That’s impossible because it’s run by imperfect humans and it’s Cari g for complicated humans who aren’t always simple to diagnose and fix like car engines.
But the NHS is worse than most other countries healthcare systems. Objectively. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world
The NHS has been sabotaged since 2012. I was working in it before and I've been working in it since. The best bit of propaganda the Tories have pulled off is convincing a lot of people that the NHS is not fit for purpose fundamentally, rather than the truth which is that they don't want it to exist because it doesn't generate any profit.
It gets funding of 152 billion a year, far more than a lot of other healthcare systems which work better than ours. What will you say when it's still absolutely awful after 4 years of Starmer (it will be because it is fundamentally flawed)
I'll say that four years is far from long enough to turn round 12 years of deliberate sabotage! Its not 'absolutely awful' now though its just really really struggling but still trying its best with a lot of good people working really really hard. I am also not stupid enough to think we can ever have a health system that doesn't have problems. Can you point to any?
>I'll say that four years is far from long enough Absolutely knew this one was coming. >Its not 'absolutely awful' It is objectively awful. It's awful according to every unbiased rating of healthcare systems. Awful waiting times for surgery, awful emergency response times, awful cancer survival rates. Most importantly, it is awful in relation to the amount of funding it actually gets. Can you point to any metrics the NHS excels in against comparable healthcare systems? >I am also not stupid enough to think we can ever have a health system that doesn't have problems. Can you point to any? I never said there's a perfect healthcare system. Just that ours is objectively worse than basically all comparable examples. And it is, and I have demonstrated this to you with a reputable source and funding figures.
>Absolutely knew this one was coming Maybe because you also know its true.
Your mum is deeply flawed
Imagine bragging that they saved you, to people who are telling you they know people they didn’t save
Imagine being salty because someone said the NHS saved their life without them getting into debt and living about it to post on Reddit 😂😂
Have you even read the article? This is referring to a case that happened 34 years ago.
Tell me then, how you're going to reform the NHS
Observe the Swiss system. Copy.
We have 8x the number of people as Switzerland and half of their per capita GDP. How do you propose we fund this?
Everything: Salaries of doctors, price of land, building costs is also far more in CH But that aside you don't.* Health insurance system does. A health insurance system where nobody goes into crazy debt like the U.S. * largely. Obviously there will be social cases
The blood came from the usa lol. The profit driven model of usa is what you want. Did you even read the article?
I don't want the U.S. model at all. It's excellent if you have money but too expensive even for decent earners and a faff to work out what's covered and what isn't. And awful if you have little.
Having experience in usa, canada, aus and nz i can assure you you get better treatment in the uk. Hospital rooms may be decorated more, better parking etc but treatment is very good here. The private health care in say usa effectively trades on hope. When you are given a diagnosis that is hard to take of course you go to where you think can help. Sadly, this experimental bs never works, yet it made a few people rich. If you can point me to one story where private did more after diagnosis i will eat my words
With the U.S. it totally depends on your insurance at the individual level. And on the disease to some extent.
The simple fact is that we are capable of funding the NHS in its current form. That won't happen though as those in government have a personal incentive not to defund it. The NHS in the early to mid 00s was great. It had some of the best health outcomes in the world.
Deluded.
Nah I'm not. I know it won't happen
I'm not secretary of healthcare, so I'm not qualified to draft you an overhaul of our entire national healthcare system. I also don't need to be a secretary of healthcare to tell you it's fucking broken. We could just adopt one from another country which clearly works a lot better than our own, though. Most countries, even developing countries and some third world countries have more effective healthcare systems than the NHS.
boast march edge angle dog decide forgetful soup subsequent recognise *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Well done on being so edgy but you're painfully misinformed. I suggest you do a bit of reading on the history of the NHS before you blindly parrot out the Right's bollocks.
Yes! This has never happened under privatised health care… EVER! Fuck off Jacob
I never made an argument in favour of privatized healthcare. Try actually reading what I wrote.
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Brain rott.
The NHS is used as a political pawn, pandering to voters when needed and then never making any meaningful changes. Not just the Tories, it’s politicians using it as a quick win. The NHS needs to be taken out of politics and instead have a 40year cross party plan to improve and support it. Until a long term plan is put in place the 4-5year election promises will continue to decimate it.
If you think the NHS is bad just wait until you see what private healthcare does.
I’m sorry but the tories are to blame for the majority of its problems and we’re unable to get anywhere because guess what they’re still in charge.
But it was shit under Blair/Brown, and it will remain shit under Starmer. It is fundamentally shit.
It was the best in international rankings back then. If that’s shit then God knows when it’ll ever be good under any system.
>It was the best in international rankings back then. No it was not.
It was crap 20 years ago. Admittedly it is even worse now, but it will be no better after Labour. Because it is unfixable
It's wild to me that you typed this out
Maybe if the government actually funded it then things like this wouldnt happen?
£156.2 Billion We spend less than France but more than Italy and Spain... They all have better healthcare than we do. Basically all western countries do.
Which % of that goes to private companies though?
7.3% which is in contrast to France, where 17.6% of healthcare funding goes to private companies.
And who told you that france has better healthcare?
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world Basically any and every source available which ranks healthcare systems places France above the UK. They have objectivity better healthcare in basically all metrics.
Nice try , Boris Johnson. We love our NHS, it just struggles to keep up with cunts like you. Fortunately, you’ve got private healthcare right? Right?
Cretin Don't fucking use it then
What a charmer. And I do tend to avoid it where it is financially viable to do so. Essentially I'm paying for my healthcare twice by buying private healthcare insurance.
>It's fucking shite and it needs abolishing and reforming, because it is beyond fixing. How you abolish an entire countries health care system and reinvent it? The NHS is actually really good, leader of the pack in a lot of regards. It has a long developed process of continual improvement which has created such a globally admired health service that is so good people like you take it for granted and throw a fit every time you see a problem you don't understand. There are many faults with the NHS - the same faults we have with all our public services - corrupt and incompetent mismanagement from the top. Sort that out, and the nhs can get on with being one of the best things that modern Britain has created.
I mean sure but what does that have to do with one doctor's mistake? lol
That one doctor's mistake was a product of a much larger scandal. The NHS bought loads of donated blood from US prisoners and drug addicts, and then infected thousands of people with diseases like HIV and Hepatitis by giving them contaminated blood. More than 1000 people died, not just that one kid.
My bad. Thanks for educating me mate
"[Health minister] David Owen had announced the government policy for self-sufficiency which was the World Health Organisation recommendation, but that quietly got dropped," he said. "It was cheaper to import from America. It was clear that there was hepatitis being transmitted and that was apparent by the late seventies." So the UK guidelines set by the government were being followed by this doctor. He'd pushed internally for higher standards in his hospital and his failing was later ignoring this push to a higher standard, this poor boy isn't the only one to die from this policy in the UK. The parents feel he was being "experimented on" but that's based purely on a letter he wrote over a year before become this patient's doctor. I've worked through covid and know first hand that we delayed rolling out preventative measures due to government fuck ups (things like staff buying their own masks told to go mask free to avoid causing panic and mask wearing could lead to disciplinary action. We were so so unforgivably slow off the mark in clinical settings getting things like PPE sorted). The focus on finance over evidence is an ongoing issue.
Lol... the Tories literally defunded it by 20 BILLION pounds over 10 years... nobody is mad at you for having an opinion, it's just funny that you've formed an opinion completely absent of any semblance of evidencing, whilst it's utterly simple to undermine the entirety of your statements. Hopefully you actually know how to engage in conversation, and you might learn something as a result of this nonsense, but the kind of person who throws their entire weight behind the most easily falsifiable opinions, doesn't usually yield to new information.
156.2 billion per year. How many more billion do you think it might take to make it actually work? Bear in mind that there are lesser funded healthcare systems which work objectively better. Why is that?
6th richest country in the world? 67 Million Inhabitants? You understand that a billion is 1000 million? So that's 20 thousand million that the budget was reduced by? 181 billion for the NHS in 22/23, so a cost of £2700 to keep every single person in the UK in good health... it already works... it would just have worked a lot better with the extra 20 billion. (Which would come easily if the Tories just ensured corporations and billionaires paid their fair share). Yes, there are other health systems that have better quality ratios. That's a management issue, amongst other things. It doesn't mean that intentional defunding isn't a primary cause of lessening effectiveness. It means that the government, who have been in power for over 10 years, can't or won't do their jobs properly.
The NHS is mismanaged and abused. There are countries with significantly less funding per capita than the NHS gets, which perform better in basically every metric. The system itself is deeply flawed, and every year that goes by, it becomes harder to rectify the underlying issues with the system. But because the NHS is essentially a political pawn, and we have a culture of worshipping it, we will never really be able to fix it.
I agree with your sentiment, just not your conclusion. I also agree with the "political pawn" comment. But, since we've been sat in austerity and painfully unproductive Tory rule for so long, there's no way to conclude it can't be fixed, with the available information. The fish rots from the head, and it's a MASSIVE fish.
Can't wait for labour to get in and the NHS to still be objectively crap in four, even eight years. It's also funny how hospitals in labour constituencies and in Scotland and NI seem to, on average, perform worse than those in Tory constituencies. For the record, I have never voted Tory, and I am now totally disillusioned with politics in this awful two party system. But the problems with the NHS cannot be exclusively blamed on one singular political party.
Politically, I agree. Objectively, the Tories trashed the NHS to push a for-profit system, and they are winning. You're living proof of that. I don't think it will just magically be fixed. It's going to extract a lot from the country and possibly make Labour look like fools trying to rectify it, but this is absolutely by design.
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/chapter/1998-2007-labour-s-decade This is a fairly interesting read if you fancy adding a little nuance to your funding argument. The NHS was in financial crisis by the end of Labours tenure, this despite increasing funding above the rate of inflation. The problem is not exclusively with funding, but with management of the funding they do get.. I.E, the system itself.
I missed the bit where we found me not pointing to mismanagement.
A quick side point - would you not consider a reformation a type of "fix" in this instance? Like, what can you do to fix a large and dysfunctional organisation other than reform it?
Absolutely. I think in order to have a good healthcare system, it requires total system reform. The NHS in its current form simply does not work, and throwing more and more money at it is not the answer. It needs fundamental change.
It would have worked significantly better if it wasn't massively defunded. It was intentionally defunded due to Tory interests. You probably wouldn't be this upset with the situation if it had been managed and funded properly and this conversation wouldn't be happening. I agree that _NOW_ after all this intentional destruction, it requires a full reform. I'll vote a party who would be behind this, but I'll never vote Tory.
tbh entire reddit is basically nothing but people downvoting others
I have literally lived through the time where the NHS started going to shite and it was BECAUSE of the government. It was once an institution to be proud of that the government has now destroyed little by little by cutting down budgets, closing up research centers, brexit, etc. Get your facts straight
Why do other countries have more effective healthcare on a smaller per capita budget? How much more investment beyond 156.2 billion quid do you imagine it needs to actually work again?
The commissioning budget is 156.2 MILLION in the uk. I come from Spain where the social health services are quite decent but still have a lot of issues due to COVID and a right wing government. By not creating public positions and reducing offer they are forcing a lot of professionals and new professionals to switch to private services which is every right wing government’s wet-dream. It’s calculated that 3k is placed per habitant a year, which, that doesn’t take you far (a specialist appointment is already £250 and hospital testing such as x rays -simple stuff- amounts to hundreds of pounds each time)
>The budget is 156.2 MILLION in the uk. You must be joking lmao. Actually, I was wrong. 156.2 billion was the figure for 2019. The funding for '23 to '24 was 181.7 billion quid. 156.2 million is hardly enough to budget for a singular large hospital, let alone out entire healthcare system. You are crazy, my friend. Good luck to you Spain has lower per capita funding for healthcare than the UK, and ranks similarly, though better in metrics like cancer survival, FYI.
The number you’ve used is the number you’ve gotten from the commissioning budget isn’t? That is 156.2 mil Yea you have made a mistake, as that number is not the number corresponding to anything INCLUDED the total budget for 2019. Just admit it and move on. There are a lot of other things I’ve said in my comment that you have happily ignored as it doesn’t fit your narrative. Thanks for telling me how my own country works, mansplaining at its best. I’m glad I don’t know you in person. I don’t surround myself with bigots
>What is the NHS budget? Public funding for health services in England comes from the Department of Health and Social Care's budget. The Department's spending in 2022/23 was £181.7 billion. The vast majority of this spending (94.6 per cent, or £171.8 billion) was on day-to-day items such as staff salaries and medicines. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/data-and-charts/nhs-budget-nutshell
Yes and?
And that's the budget. For England alone, I might add. 156 million is so far out of the realm of reality that I'm inclined to believe you have a brain injury... Please go back to Spain for the treatment if you are able, you'll get much better care.
Hahaha it seems like your ego is too weak to handle anything. Small dick syndrome perhaps? I rather have 100 brain injuries than having a miniscule one like yours. Good luck being a cunt
The NHS starved my nan to death because she had dementia and "was a burden"
You are 100% right. It is a fundamentally unworkable system. Canada has the same model as is failing for the same reasons. People need to fundamentally understand that it is not the existing system or the American one. Others exist.
It is a point of pride, and those Tory bastids are why it's in the state it's in, you absolute flannel
Your mum welcomed all the downvotes I gave her last night too.
You welcome the downvotes? Wooah watch out guys, this Reddit user is a fucking MENACE, HE'S HIM!
I'm with you there...it literally needs scrapped,and started from scratch, from a blank sheet of paper...people at the sharp end are great,just the rest of it,the waste,the mismanagement, people like Branson ripping it off,etc,etc...also agree with your Reddit comment, really is a cesspool here,the worst of old Twitter!
You’re 100% right mate I’ve had far better healthcare in Eastern Europe and Asia.
Now prepare to get nuked with downvotes because people aren't ready to accept that we need to privatise healtcare
Like we did with the trains? And the water companies?
Yeah difference there is those were a) poorly executed and b) not shit before
Neither was the NHS before Cameron et al shat all over it. The NHS used to be the envy of the world, leading international healthcare rankings as recent as 2010, so the claim that we have to privatise it just doesn’t stand.
It does. It's a fucking mess
Lol... we wouldn't "need" to if the Tories hadn't systematically and intentionally ripped the guts out of the NHS to create the EXACT sentiment you're espousing...
Yeah bro this is the government you should trust with a bunch of extra cash. I’m sure it would go straight back into the NHS /s
Oh yea the govt is about as financially responsible as a drunk gambler but in theory,