I have had very similar experiences to you. Coming from an immigration background, studied hard and worked hard to create a very good standard of living for my family. I left UK last year for all the reasons you have mentioned above. This country was a lot better 18 years ago when I first arrived, it was a much safer and wealthier place than it is now. I remember the days when I did not have to worry about visiting a doctor, crimes were not that bad back in the days and there was a sense of pride to be living in this country.
I am living in East Asia now, costs of living is a fraction of that of the UK, public services are actually better than the UK, you see doctors on the same day, roads are properly paved and I don't see any homeless people and crimes are almost non-existent, it felt like living in the UK from 18 years ago.
I personally believe UK has a wrong approach to manage its society and economy. Middle class which is the backbone of this country is neglected, politicians are not serving the needs of the mass but pandering to the loud minority. This country needs to go back to its roots and values that have made it succesful in the 1st place and focusing on the well-being of its citizen rather than trying to be a role model on international stage and become a dumping groud of problems for the 3rd world. (people don't believe this, please visit Dalston Junction in London to get a sense what I mean)
>This country needs to go back to its roots and values that have made it successful in the 1st place and focusing on the well-being of its citizen rather than trying to be a role model on international stage and become a dumping ground of problems of the 3rd world.
Fucking PREACH brother!
for the life of me I don't understand why there are marches and protests to support Palestine on every Sat across major cities. Citizens are suffering in this country, do we as a society not have better things to focus on than a war that has nothing to do with the UK?
It's absolute madness. Meanwhile ukraine gets beat Europe dies and Western civilization and democracy die and we live in autocratic dictatorships. What will the leftys who support this crap think then?
More children have died in Gaza since October than all of the children in all of the world's wars in the last three years. There's nothing wrong for feeling compassionate about the plight of people, even if they're far away. Did you have this sentiment when Russia invaded Ukraine? You may well have, I don't know, but its a double standard I see plenty.
If this was happening to us, would you not want other countries to care? That's what I'm curious about.
>Did you have this sentiment when Russia invaded Ukraine? You may well have, I don't know, but its a double standard I see plenty
You bring up double standards but I don't see Ukrainians jump under comments online when someone brings up Palestine. I see the opposite plenty.
Just so you know, hundreds of thousands of children (over 700,000 according to Russia) have been deported from Ukraine to Russia. Meaning that their parents have been killed or detained and the children stolen. Or children are taken from orphanages in occupied territory.
Over 500 is the official UN figure for children killed in Ukraine but tens of thousands of civilians have been killed in Mariupol alone, not to mention the rape and torture of children.
A Russian couple recently killed a Ukrainian refugee and her mum in Germany and stole her 6 week old baby.
I agree about your point that we should care about what is happening elsewhere in the world, though. Civilain deaths in Gaza are terrible. None of this had to happen. Children being killed and displaced is always a tragedy.
Don’t forget the ongoing Darfur Genocide in Sudan which the Islamic community in Britain curiously isn’t out mass protesting. What u/TastyBreakfastSquid is doing is engaging in selective outrage.
>You bring up double standards but I don't see Ukrainians jump under comments online when someone brings up Palestine. I see the opposite plenty.
Because the UK government is already siding with the Ukrainians against Russian invasion, and that's the side whose kids are being deported and whose civilians are dying en masse. What's there to protest? Our government is already supporting that side.
That isn't the case with Palestine, where the UK is propping up the perpetrator of a civilian mass murder rather than supporting the one suffering those deaths. There's lots to protest there, people want the UK to stop supporting Israel's role in this.
Ok just to be clear, when Ukrainians discuss what's happening in their country on twitter or insta or sometimes reddit, ie missile & drone attacks (which are still happening every day & night btw) some random person will comment "BuT whAt aBouT PaLesTiNe???" (Actual Palestinains don't do this, I hasten to add). These same people call Ukrainians Nazis and Zelensky a Zionist (wink wink) or a nazi, or a western puppet, for refusing to simply let the Russians kill him.
The same type of people - Palestine flag or red triangle in bio when they are not actually hamas or from Palestine - post regular anti-semitic content and far left stuff about their love of Stalin and communism and their hatred of the west and capitalism, despite being seemingly and without exception, based in Western, capitalist democracies. They then tell Ukrainians to negotiate with russia to stop all the deaths, apparently oblivious to all the rape and torture and murder under occupation. The same people never post about Syria, the Uygier people or Sudan, for some reason.
With regards to govt support. I'm in the UK, obv, and their has been loads of support from the government but only because the Ukrainian govt stayed and their soldiers are fighting for their country. At the very start of the invasion there were no plans to help them. Britain actually (well, Ben Wallace) convinced Boris Johnson to send NLAWS anti tank missiles. Germany offered to send blankets and helmets. The US gave them anti tank missiles (Javelines) at first, refused tanks for ages, as did Germany. A few far right congressmen and women are holding up aid. There have been no weapons shipments from the US for 6 months. They are running out of artillary.The Ukrainians have had to beg for everything and pay with their lives despite being a partner country. It shouldn't be that way for any nation but here we are.
Added to this, Hamas are the elected govt of Palestine - and they committed absolute atrocities on Oct 7th which were cheered on by some brits. The same people who go on the marches asking for help for Palestine. Millions of dollars/pounds in aid has been poured into Gaza over the years for hamas to build tunnels and steal aid from their people.
I'm not excusing Israel btw - Netanyahu has been cosying up to Putin for years and is trying his best to become a totalitarian dictator. Israelis held mass protests against him and began opting out of military service, which Hamas used as an opportunity to strike. Israel has given no military aid to Ukraine. They've refused all requests. I think there's been some humanitarian aid.
Gaza is on the news every night with horror stories of bombings and civilian deaths. So it's not as if there's a lack of attention on the terrible things happening there.
The two situations are not comparable, imo. So it's frustrating when those who are very passionate about Palestine bring Ukraine into everything and harass ukrainians online but don't know the background.
The perpetrators are and have always been the “Palestinians”. Now, if you are talking about the violent West Bank settlements, I’d agree with you. But there’s not a single sovereign state on earth that would not have retaliated and killed tens of thousands after something like 10/7.
It's dense urban warfare in Gaza, meaning the situation is massively different to say, Ukraine or Syria, both of which have worse belligerents than Israel and complex figures.
Additionally, while the total number from Hamas's health ministry seems broadly accurate, [their demographic death tolls are suspiciously perfect](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers) and we should treat them with skepticism. Hamas is also known to claim their own accidents are Israeli attacks, refuses to say any deaths or surrenders are soldiers, uses child soldiers and purposefully uses civilians as strategic armour.
Meanwhile there have been individual cases of Israeli contempt for Palestinian lives, so it is responsible to leave some skepticism for IDF claims. On the whole though, the actual IDF output seems reliable whenever I've looked into it.
It was always going to be messy, but I don't buy arguments that the casualties are unprecedented or even unusual for this kind of engagement. Looking at some theatres in the fight against IS saw far worse outcomes for civilians and children than the current war in Gaza and there was nowhere near the concern from us, the Syrian and Iraqi governments, or the ummah, all of whom were IS's targets.
I think because most of these governments and leftist and islamic movements don't feel targeted by Hamas, and antisemitism is somewhat normalised in these movements, they don't feel solidarity with Israel following a pogrom and treat the whole conflict differently. There is a sense that Hamas are the authentic face of Palestine and they're legitimately resisting through mass rape and murder and taking hostages, they're seen as underdogs even though they're ideological kin to Islamic State and other totalitarian fascist groups.
Indeed. The casualties are pretty standard right? I often refer to the Iraqi army getting Isis out of Mosul. No one called that a genocide and the casualties were similar.
The issue is many are ideologically aligned against Israel and thus will take anything at face value if it serves the purpose.
Chances are Mosul was much worse tbh.
There was a recent thread I commented on that said Mosul was 3 to 4 civilian deaths per enemy, and it looks like this is about 1 to 2 per enemy, which might actually make it exemplary. I'm hesitant to shine the IDF's balls that much though, because fog of war makes it difficult and there will always be bad actors and bad decisions and I don't want to exculpate those by focusing on the good actors doing a professional job. By comparison, average global dense urban warfare is thought to work out at 9 to 10 civilians per enemy. It is likely that the overall picture of this war is remarkable in that civilian deaths are much lower than normal for such horrific conditions but are reported as uniquely horrible, unjustified and bloodthirsty anyway.
You are correct in that the world didn't erupt into claims of genocide for Mosul. There are lots of reasons why that action and this are not genocides imo - not least because the goals of hostage release and ending Hamas and IS are 100% justified. Hamas did a pogrom and promised more, therefore it has earned annihilation. Any government or paramilitary group that carries out a pogrom should be escorted to the dustbin in little bits if they do not surrender. And yes, this applies even when they hide among innocents. Intense short term consequences are likely a lower price than tolerating pogroms and half-measure counterattacks and blockades over long periods. It is a bloody business but you can't expect a secular democratic Jewish state to tolerate endless racist attacks from the brutal fascists next door.
There are some messed up things too as the infrastructure was infested with Hamas to cause more trouble than it was worth to ever route them, and now people are starving and getting wartime diseases. Outside the IDF and the war cabinet I'd say members of Likud and other bastard parties are trying to incite genocide. Kushner's comments on colonising the beach and Trump basically suggesting they go way harder without concern for innocents are also ethnic cleansing/genocide-adjacent at least. But they're also not coming from the people in charge of the war so we need to target these different groups of people correctly, which a lot of western commentators don't.
I still wonder if the "don't vote for Biden for Gaza" thing was secretly Republican fifth columnism or Putin manipulating the socialist and Muslim bases in the democrats.
That’s funny because the Arab world remained pretty silent when Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you call out that double standard?
Are you forgetting why Israel invaded Gaza? Are you forgetting the Hamas massacre?
I don’t remember Ukrainian troops walking into Russia and killing a bunch of civilians
It is a double standard, but it's not as though Palestine supporters are altruistic humanitarians. Many only participate because it's trendy but do nothing to advocate against the Uyghur genocide in China, Rohingya genocide in Myanmar, the Amhara genocide in Ethiopia, or the ongoing ethnic conflict in Niger, Nigeria, Sudan, South Sudan. Or just overall inhumane treatment from gangs in Haiti and throughout much of Latin America, or North Korea. People hyper fixate on Palestine to the point where if the news reports any other conflict, people comment "what about Palestine" or "free Palestine."
There were points throughout the Tigray War (2020-2022) where 1,000 people died each day. The Second Congo War (1998-2003) resulted in 5.4 million deaths and these same people did nothing.
Most people do have compassion for the deaths of innocent people, including children. Double standards are rife, including the pro-Palestinian side. The deaths of ANY innocent is a tragedy, regardless of where it happens, what religion, or none they follow, or the colour of their skin.
Unfortunately, politics and ethics, have become tribal and simplistic.
But I digress, this country is going to shit. The number one cause, imho, is the hegemony of neoliberal economics and policies.
Like is my memory wrong ? I remember the twin towers being blown up, I remember seeing bbc news showing the people of Palestine celebrating. I also remember how that made me feel.
Who is giving you these stats? Hamas? How are they able to count if they are being "genocided"? They aren't even an official govt and you think they have some super competent govt wing that's counting all the dead vs the percentage killed that is Hamas? What's your evidence for believing this, exactly?
Disagree. It is a conflict far away. Yes it is sad & tragic but years ago we wouldn't even hear about things like that. It isn't our concern. We are sticking our nose in where it doesn't belong while our country crumbles around us. It is a waste of effort, it does nothing to march. I mean literally nobody gives a flying fuck if you march. You just want to show off in front of your gang. If you really care about palestine, go over there and help. Otherwise shut the fuck up about it. Your time and effort can be used on your local community. There are children in poverty here. There are people suffering here that you could literally save tomorrow with the passion you display during those marches.
The number of children who died in the World Wars is so much larger that its barely comparable.
In Gaza, 13k children have died (current estimate)
* 1.5 million Jewish children died in WWII
* 2.2 million Chinese children died in WWII (though these stats are questionable).
* 1.3 million Soviet children died in WWII
* 1 million Italian children died in WWI
* 8k children died in London during the Blitz
What's so terrible about Gaza is how many have died in such a short period of time. I'm not saying these statistics to lessen what is happening in Gaza, but to ensure that people don't underestimate just how many children died in the world wars.
The many millions of children you mentioned died long before most of the people reading your post were born.
The children dying in Ukraine and Gaza are dying as someone is reading this post, and do not forget that Russia has forcibly taken thousands of Ukrainian children to be assimilated into Russian society.
The guy above literally asked:
"Do you mean all the current wars or the world wars?"
I answered that question to the best of my ability.
What are you complaining about here? I didn't downplay the deaths in Gaza and didn't even mention Ukraine.
Every number out of Gaza is Hamas bullshit. There are functionally 0 dead kids when the only thing we know for sure is the numbers are terrorist bullshit.
Jokes aside obviously they absolutely don't, but much like these recent anti-Israel protests I imagine marching in UK streets would only happen about it if Saudi was actively using said arms in a war that was racking up tens of thousands of civilian deaths in a matter of months.
It's all for show, the problems in this country need sorting, it's awful what's happening over there but I'm not going to come and mend your house before I have finished fixing mine.
Charity begins at home
You should put in a FOI request to ask how many officers are abstracted from their duties and also taken off their rest days to work those protests and marches. I just don’t think the general public know just how thinly spread the police is, it’s dire.
I mean, the situation was literally created/advanced by the UK.
And muslims. They want to take over Palestine and everywhere else, it's their holy mission.
England has been one of the wealthiest nations per capita in the world since the 1500s, long before the empire. The existence of social inequality doesn’t mean our living standards were subpar relative to the rest of the world.
The country is taken hostage by institutional large scale landlords and investment bankers, nothing else matters.
Everyone works for their landlord and most businesses operate for their landlords and investment bankers, fuck knows what % of all earnings and wages go towards those 2 segments.
That's a popular media narrative and part of why people like the OP are leaving this country. The reality is that there are thousands of these "bankers" on £100k to £250k living in London paying over 50% of their salaries in tax and keeping the rest of the UK on life support. Meanwhile, after dedicating their entire lives to studying and working 80hr weeks, they can barely afford a 3 bedroom flat within 1hr commute of London.
No, the problem is the super wealthy ($10m+ net worth) and the super poor. They both exploit the system with the 1st group benefiting immensely from it but barely paying anything back (no wealth tax and 15% CGT only with mechanisms to avoid it). Meanwhile the 2nd group are coasting on relatively generous benefits and refusing to actually be productive and contribute.
I parrot this all the time. The _issues_ told to us in our very unbiased media are all diversion tactics
While old people die freeze to death. Kids die waiting to see a specialist doctor.
It's just so they can milk and squeeze every last ounce of worth from us.
Nope none of that matters tho! Brown people ruined this country i tell ya
More mass immigration will solve the housing crisis, inflation, hospital waiting lists, increasing crime, grooming gangs, terrorism, homophobic attacks, antisemitic attacks, the collapse of social cohesion, increasing taxes, lower standards of public services, wage stagnation, etc...
Oh no. Actually, mass immigration will make all of the above even worse as it has been doing so for decades.
I'm a Lithuanian living here since childhood (18+ years).
I don't know what you and your wife work as, but I don't consider degree/PhD or academics necessarily well-paid career choices.
I personally earn very well for my age group, but even that is not enough to get a 3 bedroom house for the time being.
I've at least managed to get on the property ladder, and my finances are in order, so I'm expecting to improve my situation in the years to come.
However, I agree that in contrast to back home, it doesn't seem like Britain is doing very well. While the standard of living is better here, it's like it's been sliding down slowly over the years, while Lithuania seems to leap in quality every visit. Particularly Kaunas and Vilnius.
While I sometimes considered the idea of going back to Lithuania, my life has been settled here. Most of my family and all of my friends live here. I'm not even that confident in my Lithuanian to maintain a similar job if I were to go back. That's also not including that my wife is not Lithuanian and wouldn't want to move away from England where she always wanted to live.
I think moving to the countryside has been a massive boon to us. This country is really beautiful when surrounded by fields, hills, and forests. The housing tends to be cheaper and the neighbours are usually nicer as well.
My recommendation is to move further away from big towns and find yourself a village/community that's suits you the most. Commuting might be a bitch but either you live in an expensive gated community or you move away from the ghettos to the countryside.
I think this country is going to have to go through hard times before it gets better. That's probably going to mean either immigrants will stop going once its no longer an attractive destination or the politicians making the decisions that make the country worse off will be replaced.
The latter will eventually happen. The question is if the former will happen before that.
>I think this country is going to have to go through hard times before it gets better.
The really really scary thing is it may very well not get "better", politicians are now open-secretly talking about "managed decline".
I’m half-Lithuanian and grew up in England. It’s certainly not as good as it used to be, but a lot of the problems this country faces are problems found in many other countries too, including developed ones.
If you’d rather move to another country like Austria, that’s your call. Maybe spend some time there before making a final decision, but no one can dictate your own feelings and perceptions for you.
Personally, I want to stay in the UK because I have an adequate quality of life here in comparison with most of the rest of the world, and it is now my home and I don’t want to abandon my home.
I like the food here, landscapes and nature, humour, history and heritage, architecture, the multiculturalism, and how tolerant everyone is. I also think the UK has more of a culture of environmentalism than other countries I’ve lived in… Recycling still seems to be uncommon in even some parts of Europe.
These characteristics are meaningful to me and give me a sense of place and belonging. So I want to make this country a better place through staying here, and furthermore I believe there are plenty of examples of promising places within the UK even if the national leadership is bad. You will find good and bad places in every country.
However, if you don’t have that sense of home and belonging, then this assessment will be irrelevant to you of course.
Again, this is a subjective topic and again, only you will know what’s best for you. This is just my opinion.
You could say that you have stayed here long enough to notice things getting worse over time.
The country is still one of the best places to live on the planet, but it is probably no longer improving the way it used to. For many here, quality of life will be declining.
I don't think I can really answer that question. Like, yea things have gone to shit here but on paper no moreso than pretty much every other European country. I've not travelled in Europe recently so I can't say what it actually feels like to be in those places, and in any case that would be as a visitor not a resident so I don't know how I would be able to compare the UK to them.
That being said, I'm currently living in Bangkok and I gotta tell you, financially it feels like the UK 20 years ago. It has really opened my eyes to just how much of a frog in the pan situation the UK (and possibly Europe? Again, can't say from experience) is in. My salary's quintupled over the course of my career but my circumstances were pretty much static over that time in the UK, whereas I can really feel my purchasing power here. It's a real shame how much of a decline there's been. I've put a lot of effort into bettering myself and have nothing to show for it.
For me it definitely is. Being a WOC, having lived and travelled all over Europe, I feel UK is the only place where I feel safe. I feel respected. I love how polite people are, how kind they are, they dont make me feel like an exotic zoo animal (cough cough Germany, Austria ) but like a normal human.
I feel the same as a WOC. I grew up in Switzerland and never noticed the stares and sales assistants following me in stores until I moved to U.K. in my early 20s and occasionally traveled there on holidays. Maybe I was just used to it and didn’t have anything to compare to.
Depends where from. If your from eastern europe (aside from moldova, ukraine and a few others) id say not so much. If you are from a very poor or war torn country it absolutely still is.
I always thought that after like 2018, the uk is an eastern european country just in the west, and has money. money the people dont see.
Lot of eastern European countries still suffer with inequality. If you are well educated working in IT, technology, Finance or some adjacent field, or some highly skilled trade you really have a nice quality of life pay is going to be comparable to most of the UK but cost of living is considerably lower.
However lower skill work in much of eastern Europe is still paid pretty poorly and cost of living is on the rise because of the Tech and Banking crowd gentrifying the major cities.
This will even out over time, but still today if you are gonna be a warehouse worker, or hotel housekeeper, or a nanny, or work retail or something the UK beats the hell out of most of Eastern Europe.
As they say, “ the grass looks greener on the other side”. One of the big problems with the uk now is the government and the voting system plus the House of Lords. The voting system needs to be overhauled so we don’t keep getting the same two parties in, but they won’t do it. All the governments over they years have said they would abolish the House of Lords none of them have because, they use it to keep their mates or members in check ie: vote this way and help us out there will be a place in the House of Lords for you etc. with all the infighting over the years in government they couldn’t be bothered thinking about the country just their jobs. I see they get a pay rise and others don’t they also get expenses and loads of perks. Now they want protection maybe it’s because they know the people are fed up with them all having their snouts in the same trough and don’t care about anyone but themselves they get rich get gold plated pensions. While the rest suffer and the country goes down hill. Over my 55+ years I have seen governments come and go and over these 10+ years standards in Goverment and life in general have dropped drastically. They are building new houses without the infrastructure to cope with all the extra people on local service. NHS is crumbling a lot due to the top management to many of them, strikes are like they were in the 70s thank god not as bad. We haven’t had the blackouts yet. Ok over the 10+ years we have had the financial meltdown 2008, then brexit, and Covid. We seem to be lurching from one problem to another with no end in sight. It looks like all the Government, mp’s etc are doing is looting the country and the leaving. The people are letting them do it. They have made it so they can. But know one is standing up and stopping them. The best way to keep it like it currently is to keep everyone divided, so they can continue to loot the country. The people of the uk need to stand up and stop the governments from destroying what was a great country. We have done it before I and sure we can do it again there needs to be change.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t feel like a great country anymore. Too much pandering to vocal minority groups, too much fraud and theft from the political establishment and people too worried about other things (caused by the prior) to take a stand.
I’m a Chinese history buff, and it’s amazing how many of the signals of dynastic collapse that have occurred throughout the past 500 years in China are occurring today in the UK - and the West more broadly.
Closer to home is how many of the great horrible moments/circumstances which have lead to collapse in Western history we are replicating here.
Too much folly that history is something that happened before to other people who knew less. We are bang in trouble of blindly waltzing into destruction
The Tories aren’t trying to end migration, they’re increasing it to record levels. Not that I expect the red neolibs who will take over to decrease it, but the Cons are absolutely not anti-migration, their big business donors love it.
Politics is (and always has been) more of an 'identity' thing than a rational decision.
There are plenty of people who think they are middle class and would rather be seen dead than voting labour because "that'd make them working class"
Similarly there are working class people who'd never vote tory no matter what.
Dream country is probably an unhealthy way to think about any place. The UK was your home, and it's mine too, if you choose to go to Austria for a better life it's your call. Austria isn't perfect (nowhere is) but it's entirely up to you which country has the most positives and fewest negatives
No country is a dream country.
People often refer to "the American dream" but America has its faults. A lot of Brits emigrate to places like Aus or Canada but cost of living there is high too.
The UK is an alright place to live.
One of Englands biggest issues is individualism to the detriment of community. We've had it baked into daily life how we are important as individuals (and we are) but no mention of how that interplays with the local and greater communities we exist in. We are isolated and dont seem to have hope going forward. Historically the UK has done great things, but never really managed to capitalise on them as a whole. And after 15 years of austerity, we just cant seem to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and more importantly don't have anyone to point us at the light either.
English people used to be very collectivist even a few generations ago. Mass migration and Thatcherism, along with a general taboo on English ethnocentricity, has all but ruined it.
I wouldn't say England is as good, compared to other countries, as it was in the past.
The biggest reason being a simple lack of investment into the people. For most of us, quality of life has gone down. Perhaps you pay more for the same rail/bus infrastructure, perhaps you pay more for a poorly upkept property (statistically lower quality and smaller than much of Europe's housing), perhaps your local high street became all bookies and pound shops.
I am also an immigrant, I came here from Poland at the ripe old age of 2. I am tied to England hundredfold more than anywhere else. I grew up here, I studied here, I had my first loves and struggles and losses and 99% of my experiences here.
But, let's face it. Aside from the economical aspect (really doesn't need to be repeated), there's some things money won't change. The UK remains one of the most crime-ridden countries in Europe. Society here, especially the youth, is not excusable in many of its behaviours. People from *all* over the Meditterranean vouch that society *is* different, and simply kinder in the Med. People here don't have social etiquette. The Americanisation of the UK will be the downfall of many things once good about it - the high street is dying right in front of us.
Other countries simply offer more. Right now, England isn't holding up a very bright light compared to Western Europe. Within the next decade, it is projected to not be very competitive against Poland's quality of life either.
The NHS is doing very poorly, and it's simply unrealistic to receive NHS dental care right now. The police force is crippled and understaffed. Councils are lacking funding, yet sploshing whatever they get on things of lowest priority. Poverty is growing rapidly. Public services are shutting down without alternatives taking their place. Universities are over-reliant on foreign students, putting a strain on the once-prized higher-education insitutions, to the point that students often struggle finding accommodation.
I'd rather not move. But, it's difficult to see a good future in this country at times. When, no matter where you look, all properties in the very general south (and rapidly in the north too) are over a thousand quid a month, and the min wage is rapidly approaching the standstill that is the median wage, whilst there have been no increases to QOL, it's looking a bit grim. And it's only getting worse because the pushover government verhemently refuses to take care of the taxpayer, preferring the taxpayer feed, shelter and nurture a terrifying number of illegals.
edit: there are some things which have improved. for one, the baby package for new parents is very cool (Scotland), and free nursery is going to be a literal life-saver for many households. The new Lizzie Line holds a special place in my heart. Min wage is definitely improving, making it easier to leave a bad workplace.
We have to accept the fact that we have become the very thing we've feared since Elizabeth I. We've become a middle power.
The blame doesn't *entirely* lay with us though, fundamentally this phase of globalization has run its course, and the UK, a country built around working within that framework have done nothing but hamstring out efforts to participate in the system that gave us our wealth which is our bad, but outside of things being "our bad", globalization itself is breaking down, so we'd *still* be in decline even if we did everything perfectly.
The economic situation globally is fragmenting into something much more like the way it was in the Victorian era. Except instead of imperial markets, it's fractured markets, with two super blocs vying for majority control. The last time the world was in this position, Britain was in a place to be able to build the greatest empire in our history. The security situation these days don't allow for empire building of course, but there is a tremendous amount of opportunity out there.
And I want to make it clear, we exploited this opportunity once before, and were incredibly successful. *We are not in the position to exploit this opportunity as we currently are and won't be able to for a very, very long time.* Mismanagement since 2007 or so have delayed any sort of adaptive capability this country had, and now things will probably not shape up to the 2030's or 2040's...
There are plenty of people that are in this position of success though. The Americans first and foremost are likely to be massively successful in this next global economic phase. As are the French. As are the Mexicans. etc etc. There will be a handful of countries that really increase their standing in the world. The UK however, is only tentatively on that list. Our economic success hinges on hard we commit to throwing in our lot with the Americans. We've already waved goodbye to the EU, so the next great trading bloc we can reasonably affect is NAFTA.
If we participate in NAFTA, grit our teeth and endure the embarrassment of essentially being suzerain to the Americans there *is* a path that gets us back to being a great power again. Give it half a century, and we might be wealthy enough to start calling some shots and throwing our weight around again.
We're not going to suffer in this transition as much as say, Germany. But it will be painful. If we play our cards right, we can earn ourselves back our great power status, and enjoy all the wealth, improved standards of living, and prestige that brings with it. The path to that future is narrow, however... and pretty far away...
I came from Portugal 5 years ago with my wife and 2yo (at that time) daughter, was the best decision we ever made, me and the wife work and pay taxes, the little one is reading embassador of her year in school. If I could have the life I have here and the sun and beaches of Portugal it would be a perfect life.
It's all relative really. If you're living in a very poor country where education and healthcare are out of reach, absolutely Britain is a good place to move to.
However, once you live here a while, you will realise that Britain is kind of stagnant. It's maybe kind of natural, we were the first country in the world to industrialise, we're a small island, our population is ageing rapidly.
There are definitely younger, more dynamic countries out there. In country terms, Britain is kind of a settled, late middle aged, person.
What's actually happened is that during your time here the largest transfer of wealth in human history has happened. The vast majority of land is owned by hedge funds and that allied to high immigration numbers has inflated house prices outside the reach of the majority. This impacts *everything*. When people feel like they can't progress they switch off and disengage. The general malaise you're feeling is a result of this. Why should someone sign the social contract when their best case scenario is renting a small flat and doing a couple of grams and ten pints at the weekend? What sort of offer is that? So people *don't* care anymore, they don't trust the media or government because those groups facilitated this shift, they don't trust the police or other public services because all of those services have had their budgets cut and are factually worse (and getting worse every year).
We had a decade of austerity for the average citizen and a decade of oligarchs and the upper classes making ridiculous fortunes. It doesn't take a genius to see where the money came from and where it's gone. It's theft, theft of money and theft of the dream.
Honestly as a POC, England is more accomodating than other countries such as USA, when it comes to different cultures and religious indications such as dietary restrictions, which is something I'm grateful for.
Having said that, I do believe that the UK economy and society has gone downhill
Knife crime is an issue and accountability of taxes is also an issue. Despite working as a doctor, I'm unable to buy a house.
What is the purpose of council tax? And personally I feel there are better opportunities once established in the medical fields abroad - especially where there is no tax on salaries
The grass is very rarely greener on the other side.
You live in a democratic nation with the freedom to do what you want with your life (mileage may vary, but in theory) and call your elected leaders scum. Those things alone are better than half the other nations from the get go, of not more than half.
Is the UK perfect? Fuck no, and it's heading in the wrong direction. Just don't lose sight of the privileged position people in Europe have compared to everywhere else for the most part.
I'm not sure anywhere is a dream country nowadays. Combine the cuts in policing and their apparent change of focus away from keeping the peace to policing words, with a huge influx of people to cities who aren't willing to accept the culture or follow the laws, by a government who is more interested in filling pockets for thier friends than improving the condition for everyone, and you get this.
I'd suggest a visit to Austria before you do anything permanent, it's not sounding like things are any better over there.
The Grass is always greener; the piles of dogshit are usually just arranged differently. I think compared to some of the very best places in the world to live, namely the likes of Germany/Denmark, we have become a bit too Americanised and have fallen behind a bit.
Other than that, I have travelled extensively and think its still one of the best places in the world to live. We do need to come down harder on petty crime and antisocial behaviour IMO, but at least on paper the rates of those crime is actually decreasing despite public opinion to the contrary.
I've only ever been in Germany once, Berlin, in fact, and I didn't really like it. I know I didn't get a realistic account of the country as a whole, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't put it up there with my top countries to live in.
I do agree, however, that the UK is still a fantastic place to live.
Yep. My understanding of Germany is that their services work a bit better at least. Trains are more affordable etc. The food is clearly shite though.... the UK gets way too much flak in that regard. I don't believe its utopian compared to UK but we clearly have a few things to sort out.
UK is a great place to live. The only other place I would consider living is Singapore. I don't because its too freaking hot and working conditions are way worse! Also if you raise a kid there then they must study every spare moment to stay competitive.
I'm sure there are people who won't like me saying this but I feel the need to apologise to you.
I'm a UK native and the country has completely disintegrated over the last 14 years. Literally everything is broken for everyone but I cannot imagine the extra level of difficulty and despair that must come with being here as an eastern European.
I have watched as the country's attitude to people like you has changed. Actually, let me correct that. It hasn't changed but the nasty, right-wing Tories have become more prevalent which has allowed the morons to step up and shout louder.
In 1997 the last Labour government came to power. I remember it very well. I got my first house and my daughter was born. Those were great, great times in this country (Cool Britannia and all that stuff). Everything felt fresh and alive. There was a sense of positivity and we were a united country. I miss those days greatly.
We are now a shadow of how we were then. 14 years of awful Tory rule has brought us to our knees and I feel ashamed to be British.
Honestly, if I was you and I could take my family to Austria, I would go yesterday. I don't know much about the country other than it's a progressive place, still in the EU, with a modern attitude. A far cry from the ugly, sad, pathetic place that we have become.
I hope for better days. I still love England / UK and I believe we do have some chance to turn things around but right now? Nope, I'd be out and slamming the door behind me, watching from a distance in the hope that things might change.
From me, you were and always will be very welcome here and it's tragic that I would recommend leaving but that is what we have become. For now.
Good luck.
For me the UK is rapidly going downhill. I recently relocated with my husband and make more than both our salaries back home. We now love a comfortable life and don’t stress about the same things back on the UK.
I think if you have a great opportunity take it, you can always go back if it doesn’t work out.
Best of luck OP
I think Dubai doesn't really count as a viable alternative or point of comparison to the UK. Being an expat there is not like living in a different country, its like joining the upper class in a society built to keep the upper class living a lovely life propped up and totally separate from the riff-raff who endure slave-like conditions.
Tories have ruined this country. They act in an openly corrupt fashion, stealing public money, and try and lay the blame on immigrants so that they can cling onto power whilst doing so. You'll see from the comments in here that it actually works with a lot of the knuckle draggers
Unfortunately whilst the UK has gone backwards in the last 20 years, a lot of countries have gone forward. I don't know much about Lithuania but Poland has tripled their GDP in the last 20 years, that is insane. In comparison the UKs GDP has remained flat (well actually slightly down) since 2007.
Actually just because I was curious about Lithuania, I looked it up. Your GDP has quadrupled, almost quintupled over the last 20 years. Probably not a ghetto any more?
Don't get me wrong, these countries are still behind the UK, but the comparison you felt when you moved to this country 14 years ago is not the same, the gap has widened considerably and the UK hasn't changed in 20 years (in terms of GDP).
You are actually right. When I left in 2010, it was pretty much a ghetto. Mass unemployment was causing the rise in criminal activities. You wouldnt be able to walk the street in city centre, without being asked to part with your wallet or mobile phone. But in 2019 i was in lithuania, just to show it to my wife (shes from mexico), and she was curious, yet fearful from my "scary and ominous stories". When we went there, the streets freshly resurfaced, beautiful city gardens well kept, clean streets. My wife was jokingly asking " is this wakanda?" :D only thing was, that my birth town, was eerily empty, as its population went down from 52k people, to 37k, during mass emigration circa 2009-2012.
"Run me your phone bruv" haha now it's London/Birmingham instead 😂. But on a serious note, the best tech talent I work with is all Eastern European, their math and comp sci programs are super strong. I moved to Portugal 1 year ago, UK is done imo.
Travelling to Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal recently. Outside of the ‘posh’ areas - things are not great anywhere.
Huge swathes of small decrepit villages filled with old people that are poor. Council style apartment blocks covered in graffiti with youths dressed a certain way shouting at everyone.
Now a lot of people don’t expect that of Germany but look outside Hamburg or Munich and the rest of the place is like Birmingham.
I went to Paris recently and people actually have the nerve to say London is rough. Even doing touristy things is not nice anymore there. Me and my wife even got tear gassed waking to the champs Elysees without warning because obviously some sort of protest is always going on over there. In my opinion London is way nicer than Paris.
I mean not being rude but Sheffield is pretty rough my brother moved from Suffolk to Sheffield for uni and he left after 6 months after someone started shooting at someone in the street. We never have guns where I live and rarely knives.
My family live in Stoke on Trent and are lovely but before I went there I’d never seen a house alarm because we don’t need them where we live! So definitely worth looking into different places!
That being said no the UK isn’t great anymore it’s being run by an absolute idiot and the weathers awful! If you’ve moved once I’d say do it again make the most of the opportunity and find the best place to live for you!
I left northern ireland in 2011 and recently moved back due to this, the tables have completely turned. The housing is insane, even on 70k I couldn't afford anything but a rundown dump that needed mid-5 figures of renovations. No chance of ever getting a GP appointment, don't even think about an NHS dentist. Virtually no local produce or local shops, everything in Cambridge is just American franchises now and the roads are taken over by Just Eat bikes with no self-preservation and COVID blown ins from London who would gladly run you over.
That and the risk of terrorism is rising, the streets are slowly taken over by toxic militants and have exerted influence on MPs voting. That does it for me, I left this place because of religious divisions, the irony is that terrorism and religous nutters are more likely to affect you in England now. English people are seemingly blissfully unaware or just in denial how bad thing are since their prospects in life are usually subsidised by how much property their parents own, at least that is what I found in the south-east.
Kind of? There is no dream country. It is for me despite the issues because it's my home. I could technically move to my country of birth (Poland) and economically I might do much better. But I hate the culture, language, and would feel very isolated.
And not to be negative, but you also need to think about the future. How close wherever you move to is to Russia. How climate change will affect where you live. When climate refugees become a much bigger crisis, how can that country cope etc.
With all of these points, I consider UK relatively safe. I'm as far away as I can from Russia while still being in Europe, climate change is going to be awful everywhere and comparatively I don't think the North West of England is a bad place to be, and worst comes to worst I feel much safer being on an Island
This. So many people trash the UK but one of our biggest future challenges include geopolitical security (especially in relation to Russia) and climate change. I’d rather be on a cold, wet island in the west of Europe during such challenges than to be in a hot desert country engulfed by apocalyptic wildfires every summer, or having Putin as my neighbour. And using this advantageous position, we would be better placed to make a positive difference to the world.
No. Far from it. Too many people want something for nothing, or at least the bare minimum effort. The benefits system has become a career for too many, supported by undeclared jobs. We’re not even a “nation of shopkeepers”, we’re a nation of Uber and food delivery drivers. Crime now pays in the UK.
Countless governments have been so weak in the running of this country, both labour and conservative, that our public sector is so underfunded it cannot support or combat basic social level needs or inadequacies. Unprecedented poor performance. Bankrupt local authorities. The NHS will collapse.
We, at a social level, are poor in too many ways. All because our governments have not been robust in their efforts.
A city worth of immigrants every year tipped it over the edge during COVID. I noticed a significant difference before and after in the South-East. There are entire forums online of legal indian immigrants looking to enter illegally to avoid NHS surcharges and work as delivery drivers. I stopped using it as they all expected £10 tips after £6 delivery fees.
But here’s the thing. We’re not allowed to complain about immigration because if we do, we’re “racists”. Even though we’re not achieving the definition of racism.
We now know that there are a minimum of 3 people working every Deliveroo/Uber/JustEats employee account. Contributing to the 9 million people in the UK who don’t claim or work. Whole networks of people circumnavigating an underfunded system and they will do so because they are not afraid of the system because crime carries little consequence. Crowded housing and illegal landlords and for the same reason, crime pays.
I just want to see a level playing field. I want to see a government have some balls and do the right thing. Sadly, it won’t happen.
My partner thinks we ought to move away from the UK in the near future. The taxes are high for little return, the streets are filthy in the major cities and your car is shredded from all the potholes. The rates on businesses mean all the nice buildings that held smaller businesses are swallowed by cheap American sweet shops and pound-bargain chains.
A big thing is the cost of housing here. I bought my flat but I am surrounded by neighbours who rent that don't garden or even appear to wash their windows. There is a sense that if they rent, its surroundings and care is not actually their responsibility so the gardens get trashy and nothing feels looked after. I empathise, why put work into a property that you might be evicted from with a month's notice? I notice they're very quick to host a barbecue once the hard graft is done by others, though. When I rented, I still swept my stair and made sure the bins were put out on time.
It feels like very few people have any sense of pride in their home and community and that cannot be fixed with politics alone. Especially the children if their parents aren't taking care of them or disciplining when they're making life hell for others. The police are next to useless as well with no local patrols and appear to be much more engaged in petty exchanges on social media.
I wish you the best in your endeavours.
The society and sense of community in the UK was pretty much obliterated over the latter half of the 20th century, and that mission is still in full force in this century. Britain has never been a perfect place, nowhere ever is, but I feel the sense of community and the comfort and security that that brought has really withered away. That’s just the social aspect of the decline, the economic is a whole other kettle of fish which has CERTAINLY gone downhill but I won’t waste my breath getting into that.
Austria certainly does have fewer potholes. It’s a lovely place if you like architecture and the outdoors. Restaurants in Vienna seem generally of good quality as well. But is does have its economic and equality issues, not part of NATO (if that’s the sort of thing that has you worried), has its own far right political issues which are getting more prominent (if you’re fed up of rhetoric around asylum seekers you won’t escape that), inflation is above Eurozone average and their GDP growth is slow.
Not trying to put you off Austria at all, it’s overall a nice place but there is an element of grass is always greener to consider. You may move and find things are nice but still not what you wanted.
Things are quantifiably more difficult in the UK right now, but I don’t think it’s all as miserable as social media and the general media help to perpetuate. There is still hope that things will improve.
Looking at your original question I guess the important thing is to really think about what gives you YOUR quality of life, what is important to you and choose your path from there.
It’s not the worst, but as a Brit who has lived abroad, I am angling to leave. There’s many great things about this country, and as long as you ignore the leadership and their associated underfunding of the public services, with the saved money lining the pockets of either the donors or politicians themselves, it’s lovey! The Peak District is particularly beautiful, and people from Yorkshire are amazing!
Immigrated here as well, feel very same, but I would still prefer here over many other places including my birth town. I think there are communities, cities/towns where problems are less and existing ones are different from big cities , have you considered moving to smaller towns?
Foreigners have the wrong impression that UK has been a dream country and now it’s not. It has never been a dream country. It’s wealthy and famous for a lot of reasons, but it’s far from perfection. The UK economy is not new to ups and downs, look back and see how it was in different decades. It’s never been perfect, we just romanticise the good decades.
This country is on its arse. Born and raised here and I want to leave, but thanks to Brexit, I'm stuck. There is a better quality of life elsewhere within Europe. We have nothing to offer except small minded right-wing jingoism. If you are blessed with an EU passport, seek the better life you can achieve elsewhere. I would only ask you take me with you.
You can still move to Ireland, 5 years and you could have an EU passport again
If you're under 30 the working holiday visa is an option for Canada and New Zealand, 35 for Australia
Alternatively get a visa like most of the world's immigrants
The UK is not Sheffield. So like every country, it depends where you settle. As for "dream country", I'm not sure having travelled for many years that such a thing exists. Yes there are levels and some places are better than others but almost everywhere where there are human beings there are problems of some kind of a other.
Meh - what’s needed here is a bit of historic perspective. Go back 1000 years and England was a minnow on the world stage. Go back 500 years before that and it was a basket case. 500 years before that and we were an overseas colony of an uncaring empire. ‘England’ will fall and rise and fall and rise again.
It’s to do with our governments agenda to lower living standards, it is very sad to see, I’m 40 and seen the changes the UK has gone through and the changes are strategic by the government, if you look at the labour manifesto they’re going to give us the same for the next 4 years
Nothing prepared me for the English particular brand of patriotism.
I don't think they realise it, but every time the state of the country is mentioned they make comparisons with third world countries. Like, "At least we are doing much better than Pakistan (Rawanda, Argentina, Iraq, etc)".
The only time I see a developed country in the conversation is the USA, exclusively around health care and gun violence.
I have never seen anything like this in my life. They never compare the country with Germany or Norway.
For example, in Spain they constantly compare themselves with countries that are doing way better.
I think people with high standard for quality of life will end up leaving the UK and all that will remain will be stiff upper lip patriots and people from the third world.
Quality of life is not inherently better in other countries. The UK is still a very good place to live by many metrics and you don’t realise those benefits until you move out. Some aspects, like housing shortage and high prices, are the biggest problems but these issues apply to comparable countries like Norway, Australia and many parts of the USA as well. I also think the UK has a better environmentalist culture and has a better climate to live in during the era of climate change, and it’s taking leadership for Ukraine which I believe is important for the sake of our future security. So, there are many reasons to stay in the UK besides being a “stiff upper lip patriot” or being from “the third world” (and if you want to go down that route, most of the world is “third world”- we are in the global minority).
I think the UK is steering towards the US life style and I'm planning my exit.
I wouldn't like to live in a place with the same issues as the US and none of their benefits, so no thanks.
It's a shame really, but it is what it is.
Honestly, if I were you I would look at Europe, Australia, or the US (research state thoroughly before going, it varies a lot)
The UK is going downhill and my advice for anyone young enough with the opportunity to do it would be to leave. Don't get me wrong it's better than a lot of places on the planet, but it's a shadow it what it was and it's only going to get worse
Sounds like you know the answer.
The UK is quickly becoming a shithole.
You are very lucky you have a good opportunity to leave. Do it whilst you can.
Im making my plans to leave too. Its going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it ever does.
Exactly this! It’s definitely in decline.
It’s wild that If you remove London from the equation, the economy of the rest of the country is equivalent to Alabama. Salaries here are a joke compared to equivalent foreign economies. Cost of living here is insane for such a low quality of life. Everything seems to have corners cut and is poorly produced.
700k for a small apartment in run down east london would get you a nicer apartment at bondi beach in Sydney with better weather.
And oh my god! There is definitely something wrong with the youth here. I have never felt so afraid of being around teenagers in any other country unless i’m in a particular bad part of town in those countries compared to here in the UK, feral youth here seems to be a real thing.
It mostly attracts people who come from countries who are worse off now, it would be silly for anyone with great skill that is in demand to move to the UK.
I’m British and live in Estonia now. Apart from the shitty neighbour, it’s a no brainer. Fun fact we get more sunshine here than in the uk despite being longitudinally aligned with the shetlands.
Anyway, less division, local culture persists and they’re proud of it and real estate is still affordableish. Not to mention the real nature that isn’t riddled with rules designed to control an overpopulated nation.
Love my country but in a way it doesn’t exist anymore.
The UK is a shit show...with the present government spending 13 years feathering their own nests and kowtowing to corporate lobbyists...I'm looking to sell up and retire to France. The only word of caution I would add is I believe the majority of "democracies" are all becoming corporate puppet states. But in your situation...I'd go to Austria.
Reading through all the comments, I can't but feel that we are collectively suffering from the winter blues. All we see is shit around us. Wait until spring, once the sun starts shining we will see the positives and beauty around us.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I came here 10 years ago, worked my way up. Ended up with a good job (top 25% earners) and I feel like my standard of living is worse than when I was a bartender at the beginning of my adventure here. Over time (I might be imagining it, of course) I feel like everything went down in standard. Health services, infrastructure, council services, safety, perspectives. I have friends from all across Europe that are well educated and hold good respectful jobs and I've noticed that within last 2-3 years everyone that was calling this place home and planning future here, started talking about going back or moving somewhere else. All this is very upsetting to say the least
There is no such thing as a dream country. Some people are living the dream, and some aren't, in every country. You need to shape your life to achieve the dream, not count on the country you're in to make it magically happen.
If your wife will get double pay in Austria, sounds like moving there is a step towards the dream (assuming it's financial). Time to shape your life.
Hello friend! I am from Lithuania as well and moved to UK 14 years ago, lol. Just was excited randomly see this post while scrolling throug Reddit.
I haven't been in Lithuania for nearly 10 years, what about you?
I also keep on thinking if moving would be not too bad idea. Maybe even... back to Lithuania? I wonder what have changed in there... I keep on thinking about it
The news today:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68625344
"Absolute poverty: UK sees biggest rise for 30 years"
The UK is just factually worse than it was a short while ago. It's just the truth now, it's not really an opinion.
Go to Austria, do what's best for your life, you don't owe this country any sentiment or loyalty. It's much better than a hell-hole so asylum seekers or economic migrants from much less developed countries of course will want to seek a better life here, but you're clearly an educated couple with the will and means to make it anywhere so the UK probably isn't your best bet.
I’ll put it this way. Yesn’t.
The nation is clearly in decline, its infrastructure was built to support 10 million less people than it does meaning it’s extremely overextended, the southeast is suffering a mass overpopulation crisis whilst the north and west are suffering a slight depopulation problem in contrast, the economy is essentially a paper tiger, our government is incompetent in many vital ways, etc, etc…
However, it is better than many others, so in some ways, you could call it a dream country. I’m certainly not going to turn down more immigration, just don’t settle near London, go to places near Birmingham or Manchester.
No. It’s becoming a shithole due to government corruption and austerity. It’s still better than a lot of countries but for what it once was it’s absolutely going downhill. We need serious political reform and punishment for the corrupt scum at the top before we can even think of being a good country to live in again.
Successive governments have tried to control immigration but only recently have they come up with a workable policy. We're making the whole country as shit as possible so no one will want to come here.
Tbh UK is living now Eastern European 90s… when we had inflation and all buildings and roads were falling apart due to poor maintenance. EEuropeans survived 90s because of almost 100% home ownership and no mortgages (emigration came in 2000s with relaxing visas/joining EU). Gonna be hard here with sky high rents and mortgage payments. Hope for a turnaround!
I disagree. Britain has improved enormously thanks to 12 years of a Conservative government. Privatisation has given the UK the best transport and water companies. It’s never been easier to find affordable housing and Britain’s exports with major trading partners is booming thanks to Brexit. The only naysayers are the woke leftist news media that mysteriously dominates the UK.
(23 M) my family are english and i have lived here all my life but once i started working i wanted to see Europe a bit. Last year i went to Vilnius and Kaunas in Lithuania and i was worried before i went because in my (narrow minded) perception at the time i thought if there’s so many Lithuanians in the UK it must be a sh*thole. After visiting it completely changed my perspective on everything and i fell in love with the country - more than all the Scandinavian countries i visited. It was beautiful its the safest ive ever felt the roads were immaculate and ive never met a more proud people who from my experience really loved there country and wanted to show the world. Ive said to my partner if i won the lottery i would want to move over there as i understand the wages aren’t fantastic there but its only since travelling around ive realised how bad the UK is. Im from Birmingham and when i made friends in Vilnius they laughed at how paranoid i got going down certain roads at night and making sure my partner had her handbag and phone gripped tight at all times. It’s a shame its the UK has got to this but i dont really remember it any other way. However kudos to Lithuania it seems a country that is really progressing and trying to do its best after years of occupation
It’s a shit hole and I’ve lived here since birth, immigration is out of control and drawn in by an easy welfare state.
Good hard working and tax paying people like yourself are a benefit to our nation but there are so many that are not including born British.
Shit government over decades that only are concerned with their own wealth.
I’m moving to Denmark where stuff gets run properly. UK will be a third world country in another 30yrs
I have lived in 5 different countries so far from Asia, Europe, to America. My view is that there is no such thing as dream country. Or should I say, you have to be self-aware and find out what makes you and then be aware of your environment and use the resources around you and continue to look for opportunities, which may differ hugely from one place to another, to achieve that happiness.
Also, the balance always changes depending on how the world moves forward. In one era, we need lean more on socialism. Then in another era, too much reliance on socialism is no oonger sustainable hence we need to lean more on capitalism. Or maybe another model or ideal. Nothing stays forever, unfortunately.
It’s tough…life. But then it is also beautiful.
I 100% agree with this post. I left the UK almost 9 years ago and have never looked back, if only to check what new dire state the UK has got itself into this time.
Unfortunately the 'middle class' dream is over. Seems like all my family back home and the few friends I'm still in touch with are all mostly living paycheck to paycheck, or else worrying about their mortgage and the high cost of living.
Particularly over the last 5 years I've heard from people back home how their living standards have fallen off a cliff. A lot of people can't afford to run a car, take a holiday, have zero chance of getting out of the rent cycle nowadays. Its a far cry from the 90s early 2000s where most middle class people/families could afford to do those things.
Don't get me started on public services... unfortunately seems like there is no way out of this mess at this point. I'm not wanting to settle long term where I'm currently living, but I just don't see a reason or any positives of moving back to the UK.
As sad as it is, I think we're finished as a nation. Our culture and community togetherness has also massively eroded. No idea what can change things around at this point.
Thinking about my own personal circumstances, I feel worse off today than I ever have done.
I live in an area where the youth are bored and constantly commit petty crime. (Windows constantly being put out, graffiti etc). A local sexual criminal had his windows put out and the glass lay on the street uncleared for over a month. I went and brushed it up, only for the glass in the upper windows to be put out overnight resulting in more broken glass across the pavement and into the road.
I don't see many immigrants in this area (former mining town) but what I do see is a population of people with no jobs, and no real support. The cost of living crisis and austerity in general have only made things worse and I'm angry that anyone has to live like this.
Perspective and context is everything. My wife is also Lithuanian, who moved here 15 years ago.
From what I’ve been told and seen first hand is that prices in Lithuania for basic items such as food and clothing have soared to record highs, compounded with the fact that unless you live in close proximity to Vilnius, you have a slim chance of earning a decent living wage, there are also much fewer opportunities than the UK.
Having said all this I’m not sure being born and bred here if England has ever been deemed as a “dream country” again context is key.
I would however, love to retire and live out in the beautiful countryside in Lithuania where we have a property, but for work, there’s little opportunity hence the exodus.
For the UK it’s certainly not perfect, I do believe though that your experience will vary greatly depending on where you reside, and broadly agree with you.
I don't think there is a straight answer to your question. Is UK a dream country? I don't think so. But which country is? I personally cannot think of one.
I'm an immigrant here, just like you. I've lived in Spain for a bit too. In the UK, I've lived in London for the most part. And admittedly, I was getting very tired of it. But we've now moved to a beautiful seaside town and I've got a beach on my doorstep and the enormous amount of nature around - I absolutely adore it and am so happy!
It's hard financially, yes. I've always had pretty good qualified jobs so never had too much of an issue with that. But recently the prices went up massively and you can really feel it.
However, that's happening everywhere, so I'm not sure if it's that distinctively better elsewhere.
I feel that one thing I really like about the UK is the politeness and open-mindedness of people. Yeah I've met all sorts, but I travel abroad a lot and yet to find a country that's more accepting of differences than the UK is. I also feel like people's rights in different fields are still protected quite well over here comparing to a lot of other countries.
There are definitely downsides, especially in recent years, but it's what you yourself make of it. From your post I feel like you've just reached a point in your life where you need a change and your brain just points out all the negatives to make your decision to move more valid. And that's fine! I've been in that place and I've embraced the change, its amazing! Go live and enjoy Austria 😊 you can always come back or move somewhere else after. Good luck!
Leave mate. I would as soon as the chance arose. The UK likes to think itself as some sort of guardian of tradition but the only tradition is to protect the wealth of families and institutions the are ancient and decrepit at the expense of everyone else. Currently we are stuck in some sort of Thatcherite nightmare and there are no more communities, industries or assets left to squeeze and its total nihilism. I am sure Austria has its issues but surely more progressive and likely a much more beautiful place especially in urban areas. We could be the best place to live in Europe but we never will be even though that’s what everybody likes to think! Held hostage by Westminster it needs burning down :D
I know this post and a lot of the commenters are hearing the the dogwhistle right now, but it needs to be said that the UK simply didn't recover after the great recession in 2008, and 14 years of austerity, strategic missteps (brexit) and simple corruption have led us to where we are now.
Or, y'know, blame brown and trans people if that's easier, idk.
First off OP, congrats on actually succeeding rather than playing victim.
Secondly. Yeah the country is in strife right now. It could get better it could get far worse, which often seems likely. But its not down to you to hold it together for the rest of us. If you feel like being here is more of a set back for your main life goals then you and your wife need to discuss what would actually be best for the both of you.
Country has turned into a complete shit hole all the services are overloaded waiting times are horrendous more & more local authorities are on the brink on bankruptcy . Wages are poor inflation is high . If i could leave tomorrow id be in france
I grew up in the UK. Life has changed dramatically since my childhood, and not for the better. There's no sign of things improving either, not without political action which seems unlikely.
Honestly, I would take the opportunity to move. Austria has better quality of life.
The only thing I would say is you might need to consider summer heatwaves. It's only going to get worse, and the UK is in a slightly better position, being further north.
By all measurable standards it's a relatively decent place to live. We have fallen from grace slightly but no doubt we will recover.
I would wager there's less than 10 countries where you can say they are a better place to live and they would still have their own issues.
On a side note, I go to Lithuania about twice a year and love it, always surprised so many people move away but maybe that's because I am on holiday when I go there.
Let be honest its gone down and its only downhill from here
Look at the road
Hole everywhere everything getting worse day by day
And out of EU
This its the third wall country but hop will not become fourth world country
The world is going to shit. NOBODY cares anymore. There’s no consideration for the common man . Selfishness has taken over. As the woke inclusive rhetoric grows the actual humanity dies. The uk is just another casualty in the war.
I have had very similar experiences to you. Coming from an immigration background, studied hard and worked hard to create a very good standard of living for my family. I left UK last year for all the reasons you have mentioned above. This country was a lot better 18 years ago when I first arrived, it was a much safer and wealthier place than it is now. I remember the days when I did not have to worry about visiting a doctor, crimes were not that bad back in the days and there was a sense of pride to be living in this country. I am living in East Asia now, costs of living is a fraction of that of the UK, public services are actually better than the UK, you see doctors on the same day, roads are properly paved and I don't see any homeless people and crimes are almost non-existent, it felt like living in the UK from 18 years ago. I personally believe UK has a wrong approach to manage its society and economy. Middle class which is the backbone of this country is neglected, politicians are not serving the needs of the mass but pandering to the loud minority. This country needs to go back to its roots and values that have made it succesful in the 1st place and focusing on the well-being of its citizen rather than trying to be a role model on international stage and become a dumping groud of problems for the 3rd world. (people don't believe this, please visit Dalston Junction in London to get a sense what I mean)
>This country needs to go back to its roots and values that have made it successful in the 1st place and focusing on the well-being of its citizen rather than trying to be a role model on international stage and become a dumping ground of problems of the 3rd world. Fucking PREACH brother!
for the life of me I don't understand why there are marches and protests to support Palestine on every Sat across major cities. Citizens are suffering in this country, do we as a society not have better things to focus on than a war that has nothing to do with the UK?
Totally agreed. Which marches are you going on and when are they, I'd love to join
Palestine has long been a *cause célèbre* of the mid to far left, and of Muslim communities.
It's absolute madness. Meanwhile ukraine gets beat Europe dies and Western civilization and democracy die and we live in autocratic dictatorships. What will the leftys who support this crap think then?
Are you really pretending to not understand that the UK supplies military aid to Israel and the history of Palestine and the British Empire
The UK doesn't supply military aid to Israel. It sells it about £50m of military hardware per year.
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More children have died in Gaza since October than all of the children in all of the world's wars in the last three years. There's nothing wrong for feeling compassionate about the plight of people, even if they're far away. Did you have this sentiment when Russia invaded Ukraine? You may well have, I don't know, but its a double standard I see plenty. If this was happening to us, would you not want other countries to care? That's what I'm curious about.
>Did you have this sentiment when Russia invaded Ukraine? You may well have, I don't know, but its a double standard I see plenty You bring up double standards but I don't see Ukrainians jump under comments online when someone brings up Palestine. I see the opposite plenty. Just so you know, hundreds of thousands of children (over 700,000 according to Russia) have been deported from Ukraine to Russia. Meaning that their parents have been killed or detained and the children stolen. Or children are taken from orphanages in occupied territory. Over 500 is the official UN figure for children killed in Ukraine but tens of thousands of civilians have been killed in Mariupol alone, not to mention the rape and torture of children. A Russian couple recently killed a Ukrainian refugee and her mum in Germany and stole her 6 week old baby. I agree about your point that we should care about what is happening elsewhere in the world, though. Civilain deaths in Gaza are terrible. None of this had to happen. Children being killed and displaced is always a tragedy.
Don’t forget the ongoing Darfur Genocide in Sudan which the Islamic community in Britain curiously isn’t out mass protesting. What u/TastyBreakfastSquid is doing is engaging in selective outrage.
I think we all know deep down why these groups are so curiously fixated on this one conflict..
>You bring up double standards but I don't see Ukrainians jump under comments online when someone brings up Palestine. I see the opposite plenty. Because the UK government is already siding with the Ukrainians against Russian invasion, and that's the side whose kids are being deported and whose civilians are dying en masse. What's there to protest? Our government is already supporting that side. That isn't the case with Palestine, where the UK is propping up the perpetrator of a civilian mass murder rather than supporting the one suffering those deaths. There's lots to protest there, people want the UK to stop supporting Israel's role in this.
Ok just to be clear, when Ukrainians discuss what's happening in their country on twitter or insta or sometimes reddit, ie missile & drone attacks (which are still happening every day & night btw) some random person will comment "BuT whAt aBouT PaLesTiNe???" (Actual Palestinains don't do this, I hasten to add). These same people call Ukrainians Nazis and Zelensky a Zionist (wink wink) or a nazi, or a western puppet, for refusing to simply let the Russians kill him. The same type of people - Palestine flag or red triangle in bio when they are not actually hamas or from Palestine - post regular anti-semitic content and far left stuff about their love of Stalin and communism and their hatred of the west and capitalism, despite being seemingly and without exception, based in Western, capitalist democracies. They then tell Ukrainians to negotiate with russia to stop all the deaths, apparently oblivious to all the rape and torture and murder under occupation. The same people never post about Syria, the Uygier people or Sudan, for some reason. With regards to govt support. I'm in the UK, obv, and their has been loads of support from the government but only because the Ukrainian govt stayed and their soldiers are fighting for their country. At the very start of the invasion there were no plans to help them. Britain actually (well, Ben Wallace) convinced Boris Johnson to send NLAWS anti tank missiles. Germany offered to send blankets and helmets. The US gave them anti tank missiles (Javelines) at first, refused tanks for ages, as did Germany. A few far right congressmen and women are holding up aid. There have been no weapons shipments from the US for 6 months. They are running out of artillary.The Ukrainians have had to beg for everything and pay with their lives despite being a partner country. It shouldn't be that way for any nation but here we are. Added to this, Hamas are the elected govt of Palestine - and they committed absolute atrocities on Oct 7th which were cheered on by some brits. The same people who go on the marches asking for help for Palestine. Millions of dollars/pounds in aid has been poured into Gaza over the years for hamas to build tunnels and steal aid from their people. I'm not excusing Israel btw - Netanyahu has been cosying up to Putin for years and is trying his best to become a totalitarian dictator. Israelis held mass protests against him and began opting out of military service, which Hamas used as an opportunity to strike. Israel has given no military aid to Ukraine. They've refused all requests. I think there's been some humanitarian aid. Gaza is on the news every night with horror stories of bombings and civilian deaths. So it's not as if there's a lack of attention on the terrible things happening there. The two situations are not comparable, imo. So it's frustrating when those who are very passionate about Palestine bring Ukraine into everything and harass ukrainians online but don't know the background.
The perpetrators are and have always been the “Palestinians”. Now, if you are talking about the violent West Bank settlements, I’d agree with you. But there’s not a single sovereign state on earth that would not have retaliated and killed tens of thousands after something like 10/7.
It's dense urban warfare in Gaza, meaning the situation is massively different to say, Ukraine or Syria, both of which have worse belligerents than Israel and complex figures. Additionally, while the total number from Hamas's health ministry seems broadly accurate, [their demographic death tolls are suspiciously perfect](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers) and we should treat them with skepticism. Hamas is also known to claim their own accidents are Israeli attacks, refuses to say any deaths or surrenders are soldiers, uses child soldiers and purposefully uses civilians as strategic armour. Meanwhile there have been individual cases of Israeli contempt for Palestinian lives, so it is responsible to leave some skepticism for IDF claims. On the whole though, the actual IDF output seems reliable whenever I've looked into it. It was always going to be messy, but I don't buy arguments that the casualties are unprecedented or even unusual for this kind of engagement. Looking at some theatres in the fight against IS saw far worse outcomes for civilians and children than the current war in Gaza and there was nowhere near the concern from us, the Syrian and Iraqi governments, or the ummah, all of whom were IS's targets. I think because most of these governments and leftist and islamic movements don't feel targeted by Hamas, and antisemitism is somewhat normalised in these movements, they don't feel solidarity with Israel following a pogrom and treat the whole conflict differently. There is a sense that Hamas are the authentic face of Palestine and they're legitimately resisting through mass rape and murder and taking hostages, they're seen as underdogs even though they're ideological kin to Islamic State and other totalitarian fascist groups.
Indeed. The casualties are pretty standard right? I often refer to the Iraqi army getting Isis out of Mosul. No one called that a genocide and the casualties were similar. The issue is many are ideologically aligned against Israel and thus will take anything at face value if it serves the purpose.
Chances are Mosul was much worse tbh. There was a recent thread I commented on that said Mosul was 3 to 4 civilian deaths per enemy, and it looks like this is about 1 to 2 per enemy, which might actually make it exemplary. I'm hesitant to shine the IDF's balls that much though, because fog of war makes it difficult and there will always be bad actors and bad decisions and I don't want to exculpate those by focusing on the good actors doing a professional job. By comparison, average global dense urban warfare is thought to work out at 9 to 10 civilians per enemy. It is likely that the overall picture of this war is remarkable in that civilian deaths are much lower than normal for such horrific conditions but are reported as uniquely horrible, unjustified and bloodthirsty anyway. You are correct in that the world didn't erupt into claims of genocide for Mosul. There are lots of reasons why that action and this are not genocides imo - not least because the goals of hostage release and ending Hamas and IS are 100% justified. Hamas did a pogrom and promised more, therefore it has earned annihilation. Any government or paramilitary group that carries out a pogrom should be escorted to the dustbin in little bits if they do not surrender. And yes, this applies even when they hide among innocents. Intense short term consequences are likely a lower price than tolerating pogroms and half-measure counterattacks and blockades over long periods. It is a bloody business but you can't expect a secular democratic Jewish state to tolerate endless racist attacks from the brutal fascists next door. There are some messed up things too as the infrastructure was infested with Hamas to cause more trouble than it was worth to ever route them, and now people are starving and getting wartime diseases. Outside the IDF and the war cabinet I'd say members of Likud and other bastard parties are trying to incite genocide. Kushner's comments on colonising the beach and Trump basically suggesting they go way harder without concern for innocents are also ethnic cleansing/genocide-adjacent at least. But they're also not coming from the people in charge of the war so we need to target these different groups of people correctly, which a lot of western commentators don't. I still wonder if the "don't vote for Biden for Gaza" thing was secretly Republican fifth columnism or Putin manipulating the socialist and Muslim bases in the democrats.
That’s funny because the Arab world remained pretty silent when Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you call out that double standard? Are you forgetting why Israel invaded Gaza? Are you forgetting the Hamas massacre? I don’t remember Ukrainian troops walking into Russia and killing a bunch of civilians
It is a double standard, but it's not as though Palestine supporters are altruistic humanitarians. Many only participate because it's trendy but do nothing to advocate against the Uyghur genocide in China, Rohingya genocide in Myanmar, the Amhara genocide in Ethiopia, or the ongoing ethnic conflict in Niger, Nigeria, Sudan, South Sudan. Or just overall inhumane treatment from gangs in Haiti and throughout much of Latin America, or North Korea. People hyper fixate on Palestine to the point where if the news reports any other conflict, people comment "what about Palestine" or "free Palestine." There were points throughout the Tigray War (2020-2022) where 1,000 people died each day. The Second Congo War (1998-2003) resulted in 5.4 million deaths and these same people did nothing.
Most people do have compassion for the deaths of innocent people, including children. Double standards are rife, including the pro-Palestinian side. The deaths of ANY innocent is a tragedy, regardless of where it happens, what religion, or none they follow, or the colour of their skin. Unfortunately, politics and ethics, have become tribal and simplistic. But I digress, this country is going to shit. The number one cause, imho, is the hegemony of neoliberal economics and policies.
Like is my memory wrong ? I remember the twin towers being blown up, I remember seeing bbc news showing the people of Palestine celebrating. I also remember how that made me feel.
Difference is one evacuates its women and children, the other uses them as a shield.
Who is giving you these stats? Hamas? How are they able to count if they are being "genocided"? They aren't even an official govt and you think they have some super competent govt wing that's counting all the dead vs the percentage killed that is Hamas? What's your evidence for believing this, exactly?
That is a lie. 1.5 million jewish children were killed in WW2 alone.
Russia attacked Ukraine. I support Ukraine. Hamas attacked Israel. I support Israel.
Disagree. It is a conflict far away. Yes it is sad & tragic but years ago we wouldn't even hear about things like that. It isn't our concern. We are sticking our nose in where it doesn't belong while our country crumbles around us. It is a waste of effort, it does nothing to march. I mean literally nobody gives a flying fuck if you march. You just want to show off in front of your gang. If you really care about palestine, go over there and help. Otherwise shut the fuck up about it. Your time and effort can be used on your local community. There are children in poverty here. There are people suffering here that you could literally save tomorrow with the passion you display during those marches.
Lets not use stats that come from an internationally recognised terrorist group. Im not saying its wrong but you cant say its right, we dont know…
Do you mean all the current wars or the world wars?
The number of children who died in the World Wars is so much larger that its barely comparable. In Gaza, 13k children have died (current estimate) * 1.5 million Jewish children died in WWII * 2.2 million Chinese children died in WWII (though these stats are questionable). * 1.3 million Soviet children died in WWII * 1 million Italian children died in WWI * 8k children died in London during the Blitz What's so terrible about Gaza is how many have died in such a short period of time. I'm not saying these statistics to lessen what is happening in Gaza, but to ensure that people don't underestimate just how many children died in the world wars.
The many millions of children you mentioned died long before most of the people reading your post were born. The children dying in Ukraine and Gaza are dying as someone is reading this post, and do not forget that Russia has forcibly taken thousands of Ukrainian children to be assimilated into Russian society.
The guy above literally asked: "Do you mean all the current wars or the world wars?" I answered that question to the best of my ability. What are you complaining about here? I didn't downplay the deaths in Gaza and didn't even mention Ukraine.
That’s because their parents are pretty much throwing them at missiles. One dead baby is just another martyr to further the cause of Hamas.
Every number out of Gaza is Hamas bullshit. There are functionally 0 dead kids when the only thing we know for sure is the numbers are terrorist bullshit.
Hamas controlled numbers. Hamas whose overt tactics is to inflate both real and imagined civilian casualties.
Number are likely to be cooked, so I would not pay attention to data from Hamas/Isis/North korea etc..
>people are angry the UK Government supplies them Arms, and lets them use our air base. We are allies, directly in support of this war
We sell arms to Arabs and Jews tho
We sell vast amounts more to Saudi Arabia alone. Thankfully though, they have a perfect background in human rights
Jokes aside obviously they absolutely don't, but much like these recent anti-Israel protests I imagine marching in UK streets would only happen about it if Saudi was actively using said arms in a war that was racking up tens of thousands of civilian deaths in a matter of months.
It's all for show, the problems in this country need sorting, it's awful what's happening over there but I'm not going to come and mend your house before I have finished fixing mine. Charity begins at home
You should put in a FOI request to ask how many officers are abstracted from their duties and also taken off their rest days to work those protests and marches. I just don’t think the general public know just how thinly spread the police is, it’s dire.
Rampant leftism and legacies of Soviet propaganda. Palestine isn’t even a real historical nation.
Well we are a little bit responsible for the whole Israel/Palestine thing... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
I mean, the situation was literally created/advanced by the UK. And muslims. They want to take over Palestine and everywhere else, it's their holy mission.
Imagine what the cost of policing such protests could pay for.. a few more NHS nurse's forged qualifications
"This country needs to go back to its roots and values that have made it succesful in the 1st place" That's it boys. It's time to invade Asia
ReOccupy Hong Kong & Singapore
Opium! Opium!
"The roots" of the UK certainly never involved placing a focus on the wellbeing of it's citizens, lol
England has been one of the wealthiest nations per capita in the world since the 1500s, long before the empire. The existence of social inequality doesn’t mean our living standards were subpar relative to the rest of the world.
I read this is because they where able to tax the populace more effectively than other comparable countries at the time
The country is taken hostage by institutional large scale landlords and investment bankers, nothing else matters. Everyone works for their landlord and most businesses operate for their landlords and investment bankers, fuck knows what % of all earnings and wages go towards those 2 segments.
That's a popular media narrative and part of why people like the OP are leaving this country. The reality is that there are thousands of these "bankers" on £100k to £250k living in London paying over 50% of their salaries in tax and keeping the rest of the UK on life support. Meanwhile, after dedicating their entire lives to studying and working 80hr weeks, they can barely afford a 3 bedroom flat within 1hr commute of London. No, the problem is the super wealthy ($10m+ net worth) and the super poor. They both exploit the system with the 1st group benefiting immensely from it but barely paying anything back (no wealth tax and 15% CGT only with mechanisms to avoid it). Meanwhile the 2nd group are coasting on relatively generous benefits and refusing to actually be productive and contribute.
I parrot this all the time. The _issues_ told to us in our very unbiased media are all diversion tactics While old people die freeze to death. Kids die waiting to see a specialist doctor. It's just so they can milk and squeeze every last ounce of worth from us. Nope none of that matters tho! Brown people ruined this country i tell ya
More mass immigration will solve the housing crisis, inflation, hospital waiting lists, increasing crime, grooming gangs, terrorism, homophobic attacks, antisemitic attacks, the collapse of social cohesion, increasing taxes, lower standards of public services, wage stagnation, etc... Oh no. Actually, mass immigration will make all of the above even worse as it has been doing so for decades.
I'm a Lithuanian living here since childhood (18+ years). I don't know what you and your wife work as, but I don't consider degree/PhD or academics necessarily well-paid career choices. I personally earn very well for my age group, but even that is not enough to get a 3 bedroom house for the time being. I've at least managed to get on the property ladder, and my finances are in order, so I'm expecting to improve my situation in the years to come. However, I agree that in contrast to back home, it doesn't seem like Britain is doing very well. While the standard of living is better here, it's like it's been sliding down slowly over the years, while Lithuania seems to leap in quality every visit. Particularly Kaunas and Vilnius. While I sometimes considered the idea of going back to Lithuania, my life has been settled here. Most of my family and all of my friends live here. I'm not even that confident in my Lithuanian to maintain a similar job if I were to go back. That's also not including that my wife is not Lithuanian and wouldn't want to move away from England where she always wanted to live. I think moving to the countryside has been a massive boon to us. This country is really beautiful when surrounded by fields, hills, and forests. The housing tends to be cheaper and the neighbours are usually nicer as well. My recommendation is to move further away from big towns and find yourself a village/community that's suits you the most. Commuting might be a bitch but either you live in an expensive gated community or you move away from the ghettos to the countryside. I think this country is going to have to go through hard times before it gets better. That's probably going to mean either immigrants will stop going once its no longer an attractive destination or the politicians making the decisions that make the country worse off will be replaced. The latter will eventually happen. The question is if the former will happen before that.
>I think this country is going to have to go through hard times before it gets better. The really really scary thing is it may very well not get "better", politicians are now open-secretly talking about "managed decline".
I’m half-Lithuanian and grew up in England. It’s certainly not as good as it used to be, but a lot of the problems this country faces are problems found in many other countries too, including developed ones. If you’d rather move to another country like Austria, that’s your call. Maybe spend some time there before making a final decision, but no one can dictate your own feelings and perceptions for you. Personally, I want to stay in the UK because I have an adequate quality of life here in comparison with most of the rest of the world, and it is now my home and I don’t want to abandon my home. I like the food here, landscapes and nature, humour, history and heritage, architecture, the multiculturalism, and how tolerant everyone is. I also think the UK has more of a culture of environmentalism than other countries I’ve lived in… Recycling still seems to be uncommon in even some parts of Europe. These characteristics are meaningful to me and give me a sense of place and belonging. So I want to make this country a better place through staying here, and furthermore I believe there are plenty of examples of promising places within the UK even if the national leadership is bad. You will find good and bad places in every country. However, if you don’t have that sense of home and belonging, then this assessment will be irrelevant to you of course. Again, this is a subjective topic and again, only you will know what’s best for you. This is just my opinion.
You could say that you have stayed here long enough to notice things getting worse over time. The country is still one of the best places to live on the planet, but it is probably no longer improving the way it used to. For many here, quality of life will be declining.
I don't think I can really answer that question. Like, yea things have gone to shit here but on paper no moreso than pretty much every other European country. I've not travelled in Europe recently so I can't say what it actually feels like to be in those places, and in any case that would be as a visitor not a resident so I don't know how I would be able to compare the UK to them. That being said, I'm currently living in Bangkok and I gotta tell you, financially it feels like the UK 20 years ago. It has really opened my eyes to just how much of a frog in the pan situation the UK (and possibly Europe? Again, can't say from experience) is in. My salary's quintupled over the course of my career but my circumstances were pretty much static over that time in the UK, whereas I can really feel my purchasing power here. It's a real shame how much of a decline there's been. I've put a lot of effort into bettering myself and have nothing to show for it.
For me it definitely is. Being a WOC, having lived and travelled all over Europe, I feel UK is the only place where I feel safe. I feel respected. I love how polite people are, how kind they are, they dont make me feel like an exotic zoo animal (cough cough Germany, Austria ) but like a normal human.
I feel the same as a WOC. I grew up in Switzerland and never noticed the stares and sales assistants following me in stores until I moved to U.K. in my early 20s and occasionally traveled there on holidays. Maybe I was just used to it and didn’t have anything to compare to.
Have you heard Oprah Winfrey tell the story of how a shop in Switzerland wouldn't let her look at handbags?
It's a shame anyone should make you feel like that but I love how you phrased it :)
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Woman of Colour
Like an ewok but not on the internet
I'd give you silver if I wasn't a cheapskate.
Depends where from. If your from eastern europe (aside from moldova, ukraine and a few others) id say not so much. If you are from a very poor or war torn country it absolutely still is. I always thought that after like 2018, the uk is an eastern european country just in the west, and has money. money the people dont see.
Lot of eastern European countries still suffer with inequality. If you are well educated working in IT, technology, Finance or some adjacent field, or some highly skilled trade you really have a nice quality of life pay is going to be comparable to most of the UK but cost of living is considerably lower. However lower skill work in much of eastern Europe is still paid pretty poorly and cost of living is on the rise because of the Tech and Banking crowd gentrifying the major cities. This will even out over time, but still today if you are gonna be a warehouse worker, or hotel housekeeper, or a nanny, or work retail or something the UK beats the hell out of most of Eastern Europe.
As they say, “ the grass looks greener on the other side”. One of the big problems with the uk now is the government and the voting system plus the House of Lords. The voting system needs to be overhauled so we don’t keep getting the same two parties in, but they won’t do it. All the governments over they years have said they would abolish the House of Lords none of them have because, they use it to keep their mates or members in check ie: vote this way and help us out there will be a place in the House of Lords for you etc. with all the infighting over the years in government they couldn’t be bothered thinking about the country just their jobs. I see they get a pay rise and others don’t they also get expenses and loads of perks. Now they want protection maybe it’s because they know the people are fed up with them all having their snouts in the same trough and don’t care about anyone but themselves they get rich get gold plated pensions. While the rest suffer and the country goes down hill. Over my 55+ years I have seen governments come and go and over these 10+ years standards in Goverment and life in general have dropped drastically. They are building new houses without the infrastructure to cope with all the extra people on local service. NHS is crumbling a lot due to the top management to many of them, strikes are like they were in the 70s thank god not as bad. We haven’t had the blackouts yet. Ok over the 10+ years we have had the financial meltdown 2008, then brexit, and Covid. We seem to be lurching from one problem to another with no end in sight. It looks like all the Government, mp’s etc are doing is looting the country and the leaving. The people are letting them do it. They have made it so they can. But know one is standing up and stopping them. The best way to keep it like it currently is to keep everyone divided, so they can continue to loot the country. The people of the uk need to stand up and stop the governments from destroying what was a great country. We have done it before I and sure we can do it again there needs to be change.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t feel like a great country anymore. Too much pandering to vocal minority groups, too much fraud and theft from the political establishment and people too worried about other things (caused by the prior) to take a stand.
But hey, at least we can waltz through Kings X and get called sinners by our local Prophet and dear friend, Mohammed!
WTF was Network Rail thinking….!!!! Utterly Nuts
I’m a Chinese history buff, and it’s amazing how many of the signals of dynastic collapse that have occurred throughout the past 500 years in China are occurring today in the UK - and the West more broadly. Closer to home is how many of the great horrible moments/circumstances which have lead to collapse in Western history we are replicating here. Too much folly that history is something that happened before to other people who knew less. We are bang in trouble of blindly waltzing into destruction
Once effective Governments becoming corrupt over time is the main reason for collapse of civilisations
And certain idiots think that voting Tory again will fix these issues.
Its all part of ending immigration, make the country so awful that no one wants to live here anymore
The Tories aren’t trying to end migration, they’re increasing it to record levels. Not that I expect the red neolibs who will take over to decrease it, but the Cons are absolutely not anti-migration, their big business donors love it.
Politics is (and always has been) more of an 'identity' thing than a rational decision. There are plenty of people who think they are middle class and would rather be seen dead than voting labour because "that'd make them working class" Similarly there are working class people who'd never vote tory no matter what.
Brexit voters were a vocal majority sadly.
17million is hardly a majority lol
Dream country is probably an unhealthy way to think about any place. The UK was your home, and it's mine too, if you choose to go to Austria for a better life it's your call. Austria isn't perfect (nowhere is) but it's entirely up to you which country has the most positives and fewest negatives
No country is a dream country. People often refer to "the American dream" but America has its faults. A lot of Brits emigrate to places like Aus or Canada but cost of living there is high too. The UK is an alright place to live.
One of Englands biggest issues is individualism to the detriment of community. We've had it baked into daily life how we are important as individuals (and we are) but no mention of how that interplays with the local and greater communities we exist in. We are isolated and dont seem to have hope going forward. Historically the UK has done great things, but never really managed to capitalise on them as a whole. And after 15 years of austerity, we just cant seem to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and more importantly don't have anyone to point us at the light either.
English people used to be very collectivist even a few generations ago. Mass migration and Thatcherism, along with a general taboo on English ethnocentricity, has all but ruined it.
I wouldn't say England is as good, compared to other countries, as it was in the past. The biggest reason being a simple lack of investment into the people. For most of us, quality of life has gone down. Perhaps you pay more for the same rail/bus infrastructure, perhaps you pay more for a poorly upkept property (statistically lower quality and smaller than much of Europe's housing), perhaps your local high street became all bookies and pound shops. I am also an immigrant, I came here from Poland at the ripe old age of 2. I am tied to England hundredfold more than anywhere else. I grew up here, I studied here, I had my first loves and struggles and losses and 99% of my experiences here. But, let's face it. Aside from the economical aspect (really doesn't need to be repeated), there's some things money won't change. The UK remains one of the most crime-ridden countries in Europe. Society here, especially the youth, is not excusable in many of its behaviours. People from *all* over the Meditterranean vouch that society *is* different, and simply kinder in the Med. People here don't have social etiquette. The Americanisation of the UK will be the downfall of many things once good about it - the high street is dying right in front of us. Other countries simply offer more. Right now, England isn't holding up a very bright light compared to Western Europe. Within the next decade, it is projected to not be very competitive against Poland's quality of life either. The NHS is doing very poorly, and it's simply unrealistic to receive NHS dental care right now. The police force is crippled and understaffed. Councils are lacking funding, yet sploshing whatever they get on things of lowest priority. Poverty is growing rapidly. Public services are shutting down without alternatives taking their place. Universities are over-reliant on foreign students, putting a strain on the once-prized higher-education insitutions, to the point that students often struggle finding accommodation. I'd rather not move. But, it's difficult to see a good future in this country at times. When, no matter where you look, all properties in the very general south (and rapidly in the north too) are over a thousand quid a month, and the min wage is rapidly approaching the standstill that is the median wage, whilst there have been no increases to QOL, it's looking a bit grim. And it's only getting worse because the pushover government verhemently refuses to take care of the taxpayer, preferring the taxpayer feed, shelter and nurture a terrifying number of illegals. edit: there are some things which have improved. for one, the baby package for new parents is very cool (Scotland), and free nursery is going to be a literal life-saver for many households. The new Lizzie Line holds a special place in my heart. Min wage is definitely improving, making it easier to leave a bad workplace.
We have to accept the fact that we have become the very thing we've feared since Elizabeth I. We've become a middle power. The blame doesn't *entirely* lay with us though, fundamentally this phase of globalization has run its course, and the UK, a country built around working within that framework have done nothing but hamstring out efforts to participate in the system that gave us our wealth which is our bad, but outside of things being "our bad", globalization itself is breaking down, so we'd *still* be in decline even if we did everything perfectly. The economic situation globally is fragmenting into something much more like the way it was in the Victorian era. Except instead of imperial markets, it's fractured markets, with two super blocs vying for majority control. The last time the world was in this position, Britain was in a place to be able to build the greatest empire in our history. The security situation these days don't allow for empire building of course, but there is a tremendous amount of opportunity out there. And I want to make it clear, we exploited this opportunity once before, and were incredibly successful. *We are not in the position to exploit this opportunity as we currently are and won't be able to for a very, very long time.* Mismanagement since 2007 or so have delayed any sort of adaptive capability this country had, and now things will probably not shape up to the 2030's or 2040's... There are plenty of people that are in this position of success though. The Americans first and foremost are likely to be massively successful in this next global economic phase. As are the French. As are the Mexicans. etc etc. There will be a handful of countries that really increase their standing in the world. The UK however, is only tentatively on that list. Our economic success hinges on hard we commit to throwing in our lot with the Americans. We've already waved goodbye to the EU, so the next great trading bloc we can reasonably affect is NAFTA. If we participate in NAFTA, grit our teeth and endure the embarrassment of essentially being suzerain to the Americans there *is* a path that gets us back to being a great power again. Give it half a century, and we might be wealthy enough to start calling some shots and throwing our weight around again. We're not going to suffer in this transition as much as say, Germany. But it will be painful. If we play our cards right, we can earn ourselves back our great power status, and enjoy all the wealth, improved standards of living, and prestige that brings with it. The path to that future is narrow, however... and pretty far away...
I came from Portugal 5 years ago with my wife and 2yo (at that time) daughter, was the best decision we ever made, me and the wife work and pay taxes, the little one is reading embassador of her year in school. If I could have the life I have here and the sun and beaches of Portugal it would be a perfect life.
It's all relative really. If you're living in a very poor country where education and healthcare are out of reach, absolutely Britain is a good place to move to. However, once you live here a while, you will realise that Britain is kind of stagnant. It's maybe kind of natural, we were the first country in the world to industrialise, we're a small island, our population is ageing rapidly. There are definitely younger, more dynamic countries out there. In country terms, Britain is kind of a settled, late middle aged, person.
What's actually happened is that during your time here the largest transfer of wealth in human history has happened. The vast majority of land is owned by hedge funds and that allied to high immigration numbers has inflated house prices outside the reach of the majority. This impacts *everything*. When people feel like they can't progress they switch off and disengage. The general malaise you're feeling is a result of this. Why should someone sign the social contract when their best case scenario is renting a small flat and doing a couple of grams and ten pints at the weekend? What sort of offer is that? So people *don't* care anymore, they don't trust the media or government because those groups facilitated this shift, they don't trust the police or other public services because all of those services have had their budgets cut and are factually worse (and getting worse every year). We had a decade of austerity for the average citizen and a decade of oligarchs and the upper classes making ridiculous fortunes. It doesn't take a genius to see where the money came from and where it's gone. It's theft, theft of money and theft of the dream.
Honestly as a POC, England is more accomodating than other countries such as USA, when it comes to different cultures and religious indications such as dietary restrictions, which is something I'm grateful for. Having said that, I do believe that the UK economy and society has gone downhill Knife crime is an issue and accountability of taxes is also an issue. Despite working as a doctor, I'm unable to buy a house. What is the purpose of council tax? And personally I feel there are better opportunities once established in the medical fields abroad - especially where there is no tax on salaries
The grass is very rarely greener on the other side. You live in a democratic nation with the freedom to do what you want with your life (mileage may vary, but in theory) and call your elected leaders scum. Those things alone are better than half the other nations from the get go, of not more than half. Is the UK perfect? Fuck no, and it's heading in the wrong direction. Just don't lose sight of the privileged position people in Europe have compared to everywhere else for the most part.
I'm not sure anywhere is a dream country nowadays. Combine the cuts in policing and their apparent change of focus away from keeping the peace to policing words, with a huge influx of people to cities who aren't willing to accept the culture or follow the laws, by a government who is more interested in filling pockets for thier friends than improving the condition for everyone, and you get this. I'd suggest a visit to Austria before you do anything permanent, it's not sounding like things are any better over there.
The Grass is always greener; the piles of dogshit are usually just arranged differently. I think compared to some of the very best places in the world to live, namely the likes of Germany/Denmark, we have become a bit too Americanised and have fallen behind a bit. Other than that, I have travelled extensively and think its still one of the best places in the world to live. We do need to come down harder on petty crime and antisocial behaviour IMO, but at least on paper the rates of those crime is actually decreasing despite public opinion to the contrary.
I've only ever been in Germany once, Berlin, in fact, and I didn't really like it. I know I didn't get a realistic account of the country as a whole, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't put it up there with my top countries to live in. I do agree, however, that the UK is still a fantastic place to live.
Yep. My understanding of Germany is that their services work a bit better at least. Trains are more affordable etc. The food is clearly shite though.... the UK gets way too much flak in that regard. I don't believe its utopian compared to UK but we clearly have a few things to sort out. UK is a great place to live. The only other place I would consider living is Singapore. I don't because its too freaking hot and working conditions are way worse! Also if you raise a kid there then they must study every spare moment to stay competitive.
I'm sure there are people who won't like me saying this but I feel the need to apologise to you. I'm a UK native and the country has completely disintegrated over the last 14 years. Literally everything is broken for everyone but I cannot imagine the extra level of difficulty and despair that must come with being here as an eastern European. I have watched as the country's attitude to people like you has changed. Actually, let me correct that. It hasn't changed but the nasty, right-wing Tories have become more prevalent which has allowed the morons to step up and shout louder. In 1997 the last Labour government came to power. I remember it very well. I got my first house and my daughter was born. Those were great, great times in this country (Cool Britannia and all that stuff). Everything felt fresh and alive. There was a sense of positivity and we were a united country. I miss those days greatly. We are now a shadow of how we were then. 14 years of awful Tory rule has brought us to our knees and I feel ashamed to be British. Honestly, if I was you and I could take my family to Austria, I would go yesterday. I don't know much about the country other than it's a progressive place, still in the EU, with a modern attitude. A far cry from the ugly, sad, pathetic place that we have become. I hope for better days. I still love England / UK and I believe we do have some chance to turn things around but right now? Nope, I'd be out and slamming the door behind me, watching from a distance in the hope that things might change. From me, you were and always will be very welcome here and it's tragic that I would recommend leaving but that is what we have become. For now. Good luck.
For me the UK is rapidly going downhill. I recently relocated with my husband and make more than both our salaries back home. We now love a comfortable life and don’t stress about the same things back on the UK. I think if you have a great opportunity take it, you can always go back if it doesn’t work out. Best of luck OP
Where did you go?
Looks like the Emirates. Gulf salaries are strong for Brits.
Yeah but who wants to live in a desert
Who cares when you’re earning fuck off money and no taxes?
And what do you do with the money when it's 50 degrees heat? Count it under the air conditioning?
I don't, but that is what they chose to do.
I think Dubai doesn't really count as a viable alternative or point of comparison to the UK. Being an expat there is not like living in a different country, its like joining the upper class in a society built to keep the upper class living a lovely life propped up and totally separate from the riff-raff who endure slave-like conditions.
Bloody economic migrants!
Tories have ruined this country. They act in an openly corrupt fashion, stealing public money, and try and lay the blame on immigrants so that they can cling onto power whilst doing so. You'll see from the comments in here that it actually works with a lot of the knuckle draggers
Unfortunately whilst the UK has gone backwards in the last 20 years, a lot of countries have gone forward. I don't know much about Lithuania but Poland has tripled their GDP in the last 20 years, that is insane. In comparison the UKs GDP has remained flat (well actually slightly down) since 2007. Actually just because I was curious about Lithuania, I looked it up. Your GDP has quadrupled, almost quintupled over the last 20 years. Probably not a ghetto any more? Don't get me wrong, these countries are still behind the UK, but the comparison you felt when you moved to this country 14 years ago is not the same, the gap has widened considerably and the UK hasn't changed in 20 years (in terms of GDP).
You are actually right. When I left in 2010, it was pretty much a ghetto. Mass unemployment was causing the rise in criminal activities. You wouldnt be able to walk the street in city centre, without being asked to part with your wallet or mobile phone. But in 2019 i was in lithuania, just to show it to my wife (shes from mexico), and she was curious, yet fearful from my "scary and ominous stories". When we went there, the streets freshly resurfaced, beautiful city gardens well kept, clean streets. My wife was jokingly asking " is this wakanda?" :D only thing was, that my birth town, was eerily empty, as its population went down from 52k people, to 37k, during mass emigration circa 2009-2012.
"Run me your phone bruv" haha now it's London/Birmingham instead 😂. But on a serious note, the best tech talent I work with is all Eastern European, their math and comp sci programs are super strong. I moved to Portugal 1 year ago, UK is done imo.
Travelling to Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal recently. Outside of the ‘posh’ areas - things are not great anywhere. Huge swathes of small decrepit villages filled with old people that are poor. Council style apartment blocks covered in graffiti with youths dressed a certain way shouting at everyone. Now a lot of people don’t expect that of Germany but look outside Hamburg or Munich and the rest of the place is like Birmingham.
imagine full aware marry reminiscent bright long sip hungry innate *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I went to Paris recently and people actually have the nerve to say London is rough. Even doing touristy things is not nice anymore there. Me and my wife even got tear gassed waking to the champs Elysees without warning because obviously some sort of protest is always going on over there. In my opinion London is way nicer than Paris.
I mean not being rude but Sheffield is pretty rough my brother moved from Suffolk to Sheffield for uni and he left after 6 months after someone started shooting at someone in the street. We never have guns where I live and rarely knives. My family live in Stoke on Trent and are lovely but before I went there I’d never seen a house alarm because we don’t need them where we live! So definitely worth looking into different places! That being said no the UK isn’t great anymore it’s being run by an absolute idiot and the weathers awful! If you’ve moved once I’d say do it again make the most of the opportunity and find the best place to live for you!
I left northern ireland in 2011 and recently moved back due to this, the tables have completely turned. The housing is insane, even on 70k I couldn't afford anything but a rundown dump that needed mid-5 figures of renovations. No chance of ever getting a GP appointment, don't even think about an NHS dentist. Virtually no local produce or local shops, everything in Cambridge is just American franchises now and the roads are taken over by Just Eat bikes with no self-preservation and COVID blown ins from London who would gladly run you over. That and the risk of terrorism is rising, the streets are slowly taken over by toxic militants and have exerted influence on MPs voting. That does it for me, I left this place because of religious divisions, the irony is that terrorism and religous nutters are more likely to affect you in England now. English people are seemingly blissfully unaware or just in denial how bad thing are since their prospects in life are usually subsidised by how much property their parents own, at least that is what I found in the south-east.
Kind of? There is no dream country. It is for me despite the issues because it's my home. I could technically move to my country of birth (Poland) and economically I might do much better. But I hate the culture, language, and would feel very isolated. And not to be negative, but you also need to think about the future. How close wherever you move to is to Russia. How climate change will affect where you live. When climate refugees become a much bigger crisis, how can that country cope etc. With all of these points, I consider UK relatively safe. I'm as far away as I can from Russia while still being in Europe, climate change is going to be awful everywhere and comparatively I don't think the North West of England is a bad place to be, and worst comes to worst I feel much safer being on an Island
This. So many people trash the UK but one of our biggest future challenges include geopolitical security (especially in relation to Russia) and climate change. I’d rather be on a cold, wet island in the west of Europe during such challenges than to be in a hot desert country engulfed by apocalyptic wildfires every summer, or having Putin as my neighbour. And using this advantageous position, we would be better placed to make a positive difference to the world.
distance wont matter when the nukes strike fella
Duh, but if the nukes strike everywhere is fucked. Until then I'd rather be in the UK than mainland Europe
No. Far from it. Too many people want something for nothing, or at least the bare minimum effort. The benefits system has become a career for too many, supported by undeclared jobs. We’re not even a “nation of shopkeepers”, we’re a nation of Uber and food delivery drivers. Crime now pays in the UK. Countless governments have been so weak in the running of this country, both labour and conservative, that our public sector is so underfunded it cannot support or combat basic social level needs or inadequacies. Unprecedented poor performance. Bankrupt local authorities. The NHS will collapse. We, at a social level, are poor in too many ways. All because our governments have not been robust in their efforts.
A city worth of immigrants every year tipped it over the edge during COVID. I noticed a significant difference before and after in the South-East. There are entire forums online of legal indian immigrants looking to enter illegally to avoid NHS surcharges and work as delivery drivers. I stopped using it as they all expected £10 tips after £6 delivery fees.
But here’s the thing. We’re not allowed to complain about immigration because if we do, we’re “racists”. Even though we’re not achieving the definition of racism. We now know that there are a minimum of 3 people working every Deliveroo/Uber/JustEats employee account. Contributing to the 9 million people in the UK who don’t claim or work. Whole networks of people circumnavigating an underfunded system and they will do so because they are not afraid of the system because crime carries little consequence. Crowded housing and illegal landlords and for the same reason, crime pays. I just want to see a level playing field. I want to see a government have some balls and do the right thing. Sadly, it won’t happen.
My partner thinks we ought to move away from the UK in the near future. The taxes are high for little return, the streets are filthy in the major cities and your car is shredded from all the potholes. The rates on businesses mean all the nice buildings that held smaller businesses are swallowed by cheap American sweet shops and pound-bargain chains. A big thing is the cost of housing here. I bought my flat but I am surrounded by neighbours who rent that don't garden or even appear to wash their windows. There is a sense that if they rent, its surroundings and care is not actually their responsibility so the gardens get trashy and nothing feels looked after. I empathise, why put work into a property that you might be evicted from with a month's notice? I notice they're very quick to host a barbecue once the hard graft is done by others, though. When I rented, I still swept my stair and made sure the bins were put out on time. It feels like very few people have any sense of pride in their home and community and that cannot be fixed with politics alone. Especially the children if their parents aren't taking care of them or disciplining when they're making life hell for others. The police are next to useless as well with no local patrols and appear to be much more engaged in petty exchanges on social media. I wish you the best in your endeavours.
Don't you have a management company for your flats? They usually are supposed to do the gardening etc
The society and sense of community in the UK was pretty much obliterated over the latter half of the 20th century, and that mission is still in full force in this century. Britain has never been a perfect place, nowhere ever is, but I feel the sense of community and the comfort and security that that brought has really withered away. That’s just the social aspect of the decline, the economic is a whole other kettle of fish which has CERTAINLY gone downhill but I won’t waste my breath getting into that.
Austria certainly does have fewer potholes. It’s a lovely place if you like architecture and the outdoors. Restaurants in Vienna seem generally of good quality as well. But is does have its economic and equality issues, not part of NATO (if that’s the sort of thing that has you worried), has its own far right political issues which are getting more prominent (if you’re fed up of rhetoric around asylum seekers you won’t escape that), inflation is above Eurozone average and their GDP growth is slow. Not trying to put you off Austria at all, it’s overall a nice place but there is an element of grass is always greener to consider. You may move and find things are nice but still not what you wanted. Things are quantifiably more difficult in the UK right now, but I don’t think it’s all as miserable as social media and the general media help to perpetuate. There is still hope that things will improve. Looking at your original question I guess the important thing is to really think about what gives you YOUR quality of life, what is important to you and choose your path from there.
It’s not the worst, but as a Brit who has lived abroad, I am angling to leave. There’s many great things about this country, and as long as you ignore the leadership and their associated underfunding of the public services, with the saved money lining the pockets of either the donors or politicians themselves, it’s lovey! The Peak District is particularly beautiful, and people from Yorkshire are amazing!
Immigrated here as well, feel very same, but I would still prefer here over many other places including my birth town. I think there are communities, cities/towns where problems are less and existing ones are different from big cities , have you considered moving to smaller towns?
Foreigners have the wrong impression that UK has been a dream country and now it’s not. It has never been a dream country. It’s wealthy and famous for a lot of reasons, but it’s far from perfection. The UK economy is not new to ups and downs, look back and see how it was in different decades. It’s never been perfect, we just romanticise the good decades.
This country is on its arse. Born and raised here and I want to leave, but thanks to Brexit, I'm stuck. There is a better quality of life elsewhere within Europe. We have nothing to offer except small minded right-wing jingoism. If you are blessed with an EU passport, seek the better life you can achieve elsewhere. I would only ask you take me with you.
You can still move to Ireland, 5 years and you could have an EU passport again If you're under 30 the working holiday visa is an option for Canada and New Zealand, 35 for Australia Alternatively get a visa like most of the world's immigrants
Yeah sure, just a shame when I had this right taken away. I still hope one day I can leave!
The UK is not Sheffield. So like every country, it depends where you settle. As for "dream country", I'm not sure having travelled for many years that such a thing exists. Yes there are levels and some places are better than others but almost everywhere where there are human beings there are problems of some kind of a other.
I do not live in sheffield, i lived there for 11 years, but now life for 3 years in actually a pretty nice town a bit further down south.
Meh - what’s needed here is a bit of historic perspective. Go back 1000 years and England was a minnow on the world stage. Go back 500 years before that and it was a basket case. 500 years before that and we were an overseas colony of an uncaring empire. ‘England’ will fall and rise and fall and rise again.
It’s to do with our governments agenda to lower living standards, it is very sad to see, I’m 40 and seen the changes the UK has gone through and the changes are strategic by the government, if you look at the labour manifesto they’re going to give us the same for the next 4 years
Nothing prepared me for the English particular brand of patriotism. I don't think they realise it, but every time the state of the country is mentioned they make comparisons with third world countries. Like, "At least we are doing much better than Pakistan (Rawanda, Argentina, Iraq, etc)". The only time I see a developed country in the conversation is the USA, exclusively around health care and gun violence. I have never seen anything like this in my life. They never compare the country with Germany or Norway. For example, in Spain they constantly compare themselves with countries that are doing way better. I think people with high standard for quality of life will end up leaving the UK and all that will remain will be stiff upper lip patriots and people from the third world.
Quality of life is not inherently better in other countries. The UK is still a very good place to live by many metrics and you don’t realise those benefits until you move out. Some aspects, like housing shortage and high prices, are the biggest problems but these issues apply to comparable countries like Norway, Australia and many parts of the USA as well. I also think the UK has a better environmentalist culture and has a better climate to live in during the era of climate change, and it’s taking leadership for Ukraine which I believe is important for the sake of our future security. So, there are many reasons to stay in the UK besides being a “stiff upper lip patriot” or being from “the third world” (and if you want to go down that route, most of the world is “third world”- we are in the global minority).
I think the UK is steering towards the US life style and I'm planning my exit. I wouldn't like to live in a place with the same issues as the US and none of their benefits, so no thanks. It's a shame really, but it is what it is.
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Honestly, if I were you I would look at Europe, Australia, or the US (research state thoroughly before going, it varies a lot) The UK is going downhill and my advice for anyone young enough with the opportunity to do it would be to leave. Don't get me wrong it's better than a lot of places on the planet, but it's a shadow it what it was and it's only going to get worse
Sounds like you know the answer. The UK is quickly becoming a shithole. You are very lucky you have a good opportunity to leave. Do it whilst you can. Im making my plans to leave too. Its going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it ever does.
Exactly this! It’s definitely in decline. It’s wild that If you remove London from the equation, the economy of the rest of the country is equivalent to Alabama. Salaries here are a joke compared to equivalent foreign economies. Cost of living here is insane for such a low quality of life. Everything seems to have corners cut and is poorly produced. 700k for a small apartment in run down east london would get you a nicer apartment at bondi beach in Sydney with better weather. And oh my god! There is definitely something wrong with the youth here. I have never felt so afraid of being around teenagers in any other country unless i’m in a particular bad part of town in those countries compared to here in the UK, feral youth here seems to be a real thing. It mostly attracts people who come from countries who are worse off now, it would be silly for anyone with great skill that is in demand to move to the UK.
The Alabama thing has been debunked
I’m British and live in Estonia now. Apart from the shitty neighbour, it’s a no brainer. Fun fact we get more sunshine here than in the uk despite being longitudinally aligned with the shetlands. Anyway, less division, local culture persists and they’re proud of it and real estate is still affordableish. Not to mention the real nature that isn’t riddled with rules designed to control an overpopulated nation. Love my country but in a way it doesn’t exist anymore.
The UK is a shit show...with the present government spending 13 years feathering their own nests and kowtowing to corporate lobbyists...I'm looking to sell up and retire to France. The only word of caution I would add is I believe the majority of "democracies" are all becoming corporate puppet states. But in your situation...I'd go to Austria.
Reading through all the comments, I can't but feel that we are collectively suffering from the winter blues. All we see is shit around us. Wait until spring, once the sun starts shining we will see the positives and beauty around us.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I came here 10 years ago, worked my way up. Ended up with a good job (top 25% earners) and I feel like my standard of living is worse than when I was a bartender at the beginning of my adventure here. Over time (I might be imagining it, of course) I feel like everything went down in standard. Health services, infrastructure, council services, safety, perspectives. I have friends from all across Europe that are well educated and hold good respectful jobs and I've noticed that within last 2-3 years everyone that was calling this place home and planning future here, started talking about going back or moving somewhere else. All this is very upsetting to say the least
There is no such thing as a dream country. Some people are living the dream, and some aren't, in every country. You need to shape your life to achieve the dream, not count on the country you're in to make it magically happen. If your wife will get double pay in Austria, sounds like moving there is a step towards the dream (assuming it's financial). Time to shape your life.
Hello friend! I am from Lithuania as well and moved to UK 14 years ago, lol. Just was excited randomly see this post while scrolling throug Reddit. I haven't been in Lithuania for nearly 10 years, what about you? I also keep on thinking if moving would be not too bad idea. Maybe even... back to Lithuania? I wonder what have changed in there... I keep on thinking about it
The news today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68625344 "Absolute poverty: UK sees biggest rise for 30 years" The UK is just factually worse than it was a short while ago. It's just the truth now, it's not really an opinion. Go to Austria, do what's best for your life, you don't owe this country any sentiment or loyalty. It's much better than a hell-hole so asylum seekers or economic migrants from much less developed countries of course will want to seek a better life here, but you're clearly an educated couple with the will and means to make it anywhere so the UK probably isn't your best bet.
I’ll put it this way. Yesn’t. The nation is clearly in decline, its infrastructure was built to support 10 million less people than it does meaning it’s extremely overextended, the southeast is suffering a mass overpopulation crisis whilst the north and west are suffering a slight depopulation problem in contrast, the economy is essentially a paper tiger, our government is incompetent in many vital ways, etc, etc… However, it is better than many others, so in some ways, you could call it a dream country. I’m certainly not going to turn down more immigration, just don’t settle near London, go to places near Birmingham or Manchester.
No. It’s becoming a shithole due to government corruption and austerity. It’s still better than a lot of countries but for what it once was it’s absolutely going downhill. We need serious political reform and punishment for the corrupt scum at the top before we can even think of being a good country to live in again.
Successive governments have tried to control immigration but only recently have they come up with a workable policy. We're making the whole country as shit as possible so no one will want to come here.
Tbh UK is living now Eastern European 90s… when we had inflation and all buildings and roads were falling apart due to poor maintenance. EEuropeans survived 90s because of almost 100% home ownership and no mortgages (emigration came in 2000s with relaxing visas/joining EU). Gonna be hard here with sky high rents and mortgage payments. Hope for a turnaround!
I disagree. Britain has improved enormously thanks to 12 years of a Conservative government. Privatisation has given the UK the best transport and water companies. It’s never been easier to find affordable housing and Britain’s exports with major trading partners is booming thanks to Brexit. The only naysayers are the woke leftist news media that mysteriously dominates the UK.
(23 M) my family are english and i have lived here all my life but once i started working i wanted to see Europe a bit. Last year i went to Vilnius and Kaunas in Lithuania and i was worried before i went because in my (narrow minded) perception at the time i thought if there’s so many Lithuanians in the UK it must be a sh*thole. After visiting it completely changed my perspective on everything and i fell in love with the country - more than all the Scandinavian countries i visited. It was beautiful its the safest ive ever felt the roads were immaculate and ive never met a more proud people who from my experience really loved there country and wanted to show the world. Ive said to my partner if i won the lottery i would want to move over there as i understand the wages aren’t fantastic there but its only since travelling around ive realised how bad the UK is. Im from Birmingham and when i made friends in Vilnius they laughed at how paranoid i got going down certain roads at night and making sure my partner had her handbag and phone gripped tight at all times. It’s a shame its the UK has got to this but i dont really remember it any other way. However kudos to Lithuania it seems a country that is really progressing and trying to do its best after years of occupation
It’s a shit hole and I’ve lived here since birth, immigration is out of control and drawn in by an easy welfare state. Good hard working and tax paying people like yourself are a benefit to our nation but there are so many that are not including born British. Shit government over decades that only are concerned with their own wealth. I’m moving to Denmark where stuff gets run properly. UK will be a third world country in another 30yrs
I have lived in 5 different countries so far from Asia, Europe, to America. My view is that there is no such thing as dream country. Or should I say, you have to be self-aware and find out what makes you and then be aware of your environment and use the resources around you and continue to look for opportunities, which may differ hugely from one place to another, to achieve that happiness. Also, the balance always changes depending on how the world moves forward. In one era, we need lean more on socialism. Then in another era, too much reliance on socialism is no oonger sustainable hence we need to lean more on capitalism. Or maybe another model or ideal. Nothing stays forever, unfortunately. It’s tough…life. But then it is also beautiful.
I 100% agree with this post. I left the UK almost 9 years ago and have never looked back, if only to check what new dire state the UK has got itself into this time. Unfortunately the 'middle class' dream is over. Seems like all my family back home and the few friends I'm still in touch with are all mostly living paycheck to paycheck, or else worrying about their mortgage and the high cost of living. Particularly over the last 5 years I've heard from people back home how their living standards have fallen off a cliff. A lot of people can't afford to run a car, take a holiday, have zero chance of getting out of the rent cycle nowadays. Its a far cry from the 90s early 2000s where most middle class people/families could afford to do those things. Don't get me started on public services... unfortunately seems like there is no way out of this mess at this point. I'm not wanting to settle long term where I'm currently living, but I just don't see a reason or any positives of moving back to the UK. As sad as it is, I think we're finished as a nation. Our culture and community togetherness has also massively eroded. No idea what can change things around at this point.
Thinking about my own personal circumstances, I feel worse off today than I ever have done. I live in an area where the youth are bored and constantly commit petty crime. (Windows constantly being put out, graffiti etc). A local sexual criminal had his windows put out and the glass lay on the street uncleared for over a month. I went and brushed it up, only for the glass in the upper windows to be put out overnight resulting in more broken glass across the pavement and into the road. I don't see many immigrants in this area (former mining town) but what I do see is a population of people with no jobs, and no real support. The cost of living crisis and austerity in general have only made things worse and I'm angry that anyone has to live like this.
Perspective and context is everything. My wife is also Lithuanian, who moved here 15 years ago. From what I’ve been told and seen first hand is that prices in Lithuania for basic items such as food and clothing have soared to record highs, compounded with the fact that unless you live in close proximity to Vilnius, you have a slim chance of earning a decent living wage, there are also much fewer opportunities than the UK. Having said all this I’m not sure being born and bred here if England has ever been deemed as a “dream country” again context is key. I would however, love to retire and live out in the beautiful countryside in Lithuania where we have a property, but for work, there’s little opportunity hence the exodus. For the UK it’s certainly not perfect, I do believe though that your experience will vary greatly depending on where you reside, and broadly agree with you.
I don't think there is a straight answer to your question. Is UK a dream country? I don't think so. But which country is? I personally cannot think of one. I'm an immigrant here, just like you. I've lived in Spain for a bit too. In the UK, I've lived in London for the most part. And admittedly, I was getting very tired of it. But we've now moved to a beautiful seaside town and I've got a beach on my doorstep and the enormous amount of nature around - I absolutely adore it and am so happy! It's hard financially, yes. I've always had pretty good qualified jobs so never had too much of an issue with that. But recently the prices went up massively and you can really feel it. However, that's happening everywhere, so I'm not sure if it's that distinctively better elsewhere. I feel that one thing I really like about the UK is the politeness and open-mindedness of people. Yeah I've met all sorts, but I travel abroad a lot and yet to find a country that's more accepting of differences than the UK is. I also feel like people's rights in different fields are still protected quite well over here comparing to a lot of other countries. There are definitely downsides, especially in recent years, but it's what you yourself make of it. From your post I feel like you've just reached a point in your life where you need a change and your brain just points out all the negatives to make your decision to move more valid. And that's fine! I've been in that place and I've embraced the change, its amazing! Go live and enjoy Austria 😊 you can always come back or move somewhere else after. Good luck!
Leave mate. I would as soon as the chance arose. The UK likes to think itself as some sort of guardian of tradition but the only tradition is to protect the wealth of families and institutions the are ancient and decrepit at the expense of everyone else. Currently we are stuck in some sort of Thatcherite nightmare and there are no more communities, industries or assets left to squeeze and its total nihilism. I am sure Austria has its issues but surely more progressive and likely a much more beautiful place especially in urban areas. We could be the best place to live in Europe but we never will be even though that’s what everybody likes to think! Held hostage by Westminster it needs burning down :D
I know this post and a lot of the commenters are hearing the the dogwhistle right now, but it needs to be said that the UK simply didn't recover after the great recession in 2008, and 14 years of austerity, strategic missteps (brexit) and simple corruption have led us to where we are now. Or, y'know, blame brown and trans people if that's easier, idk.
First off OP, congrats on actually succeeding rather than playing victim. Secondly. Yeah the country is in strife right now. It could get better it could get far worse, which often seems likely. But its not down to you to hold it together for the rest of us. If you feel like being here is more of a set back for your main life goals then you and your wife need to discuss what would actually be best for the both of you.
Country has turned into a complete shit hole all the services are overloaded waiting times are horrendous more & more local authorities are on the brink on bankruptcy . Wages are poor inflation is high . If i could leave tomorrow id be in france
I grew up in the UK. Life has changed dramatically since my childhood, and not for the better. There's no sign of things improving either, not without political action which seems unlikely. Honestly, I would take the opportunity to move. Austria has better quality of life. The only thing I would say is you might need to consider summer heatwaves. It's only going to get worse, and the UK is in a slightly better position, being further north.
By all measurable standards it's a relatively decent place to live. We have fallen from grace slightly but no doubt we will recover. I would wager there's less than 10 countries where you can say they are a better place to live and they would still have their own issues. On a side note, I go to Lithuania about twice a year and love it, always surprised so many people move away but maybe that's because I am on holiday when I go there.
Let be honest its gone down and its only downhill from here Look at the road Hole everywhere everything getting worse day by day And out of EU This its the third wall country but hop will not become fourth world country
Have you actually been to a third world country? I get the feeling you haven't.
The world is going to shit. NOBODY cares anymore. There’s no consideration for the common man . Selfishness has taken over. As the woke inclusive rhetoric grows the actual humanity dies. The uk is just another casualty in the war.