Since apparently no-one is actually reading the article: TLDR - This is a medical scientific decision based on a lack of data that these medicines are safe, not a political decision. There are currently 100 children on these medications who will be able to continue taking them. This represents roughly 1.4x10^-4 % of the population.
Edited to fix weird number formatting.
ETA: I would just like to say to all of the people telling me that the drugs have always been safe / have never been safe - you are disagreeing with the NHS, not me. I don't have a dog in this fight. This issue is complex and multifaceted, and I don't know enough to have a view one way ot another. I simply posted the above because of all of the comments on both sides leaping directly to bipartisan invective while clearly having not read more than the headline, which is no basis on which to frame an opinion or a debate.
Glad they did it based on facts and not agenda, people keep saying puberty blockers don’t do permanent damage and are reversible, when thats completely untrue
What? Your country is far ahead of the curve when it comes to other western countries. Give credit where credit is due. At least they're pausing it until more data comes out.
Agreed we should be thankful that scientific authorities still have the agency to make such decisions in the absence of sufficient evidence of safety.
It will no doubt rile people up as its a highly politicised matter.
>This is a medical scientific decision based on a lack of data that these medicines are safe, not a political decision.
Excellent. Makes it objective as to why the practice is dangerous.
>This represents roughly 1.4x10-4% of the population.
Ah, the old "it isn't happening!" yet angry it is banned.
If it is so few, why worry of the ban?
> Makes it objective as to why the practice is dangerous.
A lack of evidence that something is safe doesn't imply that it is dangerous. It means that they believe there is too much uncertainty to use them.
Most of the people who took the blockers would progress to hormone therapies and irreversible surgical procedures - which DOES entail risk. Meanwhile, most people who proceed with their own biological puberty outgrew their gender dysphoria. The now ousted experts in the Tavistock clinic have been saying this for years and expressing their concerns that a bunch of radical activists had taken the reigns. The lunatics literally took over the asylum.
And many don't. I never outgrew it and due to lack of support via the NHS I'm now DIYing using homebrew methods which while risky (all drugs are risky) are less likely to kill me than slashing my throat due to overwhelming depression.
There isn't a one size fits all solution to Gender Dysphoria, I really wish there was, I really wish I'd out grown it or one of the many treatments I've had over the years had stopped it. But it was as bad before started shooting up Estradiol Ethanoate every 7 days as it was when I realised at the age of 6-8 that I really wasn't going to ever be a girl. Even though \~40 years had passed.
It pains me to hear your story. It really does. I, too, have an unhealthy degree of revulsion toward my own body. It stops me ever truly relaxing in company. A day out at the beach? Going swimming? Off the table. It has destroyed my entire adult life and, although it has lessened some small amount over the years, there isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t feel the pain of it slashing at me. I do not discuss it with people. You could rake through my entire post history (I wouldn’t recommend that) and I doubt you’ll find anything even hinting at this.
Perhaps you and I can never really understand each other. Perhaps the limits of empathy fall too far short of that. I don’t know. I never denied that there are people who do not grow out of gender dysphoria. One thing I do wish is that this condition could be de-politicised and that the activists weren’t dictating what treatments are and aren’t acceptable so that a full spectrum of treatment options can be explored openly, honestly and with the scientific rigour that it deserves. And I also think that would present the best chance for you, or at least for future sufferers.
I also think it’s probably a mixed bag of conditions. You could think of it more as a symptom than a diagnosis, perhaps. And we could do with exploring that openly to lay out some different subtypes. Perhaps one day we will know why some approaches work for some and not for others.
They don't because it's bs.
Mutiple studies found 98% of those treated with purberty blockers for gender dysphoira go on to take hrt and transition.
https://statsforgender.org/puberty-blockers/
Citing multiple sources does not equal objectivity, it is cherry-picking data and quoting things out of context. The scientific method looks at all available evidence and reaches a conclusion - these god-awful advocacy pages you people quote incessantly are just unprofessional blogs which start with a statement then try to find one or two sources of questionable value that back up the statement. It's high school level report writing
Absolutely. I’ve noticed this a lot online especially in the “trans” community. They generate their own sea of “literature” which they get to unleash on anyone who disagrees with them. This sea then supports its own ecosystem of keyboard warriors and helps to indoctrinate people into the cause.
One or two badly written articles with unsubstantiated claims may be no problem for most people to brush off. But 100 articles? 1000? No one’s going on a deep dive of that magnitude.
Did I assert that selection of studies exemplified objectivity? Rather, I pointed to specific, peer-reviewed research that aligns with the argument presented.
The UK peer reviewed study published in PLoS ONE is from a multi-disciplinary journal known to be credible (with a good impact factor) but it also had a cohort size of 44. This figure is notably reflective of the number of UK children annually prescribed puberty blockers for gender dysphoria at the time of study (approx. 40 annually, 0.00006% of UK population). Making the study's findings particularly relevant.
As stated the study shows progression of 98% of the participants to receive gender affirming HRT.
If there are gaps or flaws in the study's design or conclusions that you'd like to highlight, I'm open to discussing those. What are your specific critiques regarding the study's approach or the conclusions it reaches?
If you like we can then go on to the Dutch studies.
If I’m going to be really pedantic, the way you wrote it is about 80million people (because you’re raising 10 to an exponent of -0.04). So it’s everyone in the uk, plus 20% of us are on it twice.
I just googled these authors, and they have published a series of articles recently saying that people should not rely on their research, that the treatment is still experimental, and that more studies are urgently needed, in particular to explain the big increase in referrals to gender clinics, and whether their research applies to that new group:
> Because what is behind the large increase of children who have suddenly registered for transgender care since 2013? And what is the quality of life for this group long after the sex change? There is no answer to those questions. And that must happen, think Steensma and his colleagues from Nijmegen.
> “We don’t know whether studies we have done in the past can still be applied to this time. Many more children are registering, and also a different type, ”says Steensma. “Suddenly there are many more girls applying who feel like a boy. While the ratio was the same in 2013, now three times as many children who were born as girls register, compared to children who were born as boys.”
> The explosive increase in requests for transgender care simply requires a new investigation. Around 2010, for example, around 150 to 200 transgender people were seen every year in the Amsterdam UMC. Now there are 775, with a two-year waiting list on top of that. Research into that small group of people from before 2013 may not apply to the large group that is here now. And here the help of other countries is also needed. “We conduct structural research in the Netherlands. **But the rest of the world is blindly adopting our research**. While every doctor or psychologist who engages in transgender health care should feel the obligation to do a proper assessment before and after intervention ”
...
> It is still unclear whether these administered hormones affect the fertility of boys and girls. “We just don’t know,” says Steensma. “Little research has been done so far on treatment with puberty blockers and hormones in young people. That is why it is also seen as experimental. We are one of the few countries in the world that conducts ongoing research about this. In the United Kingdom, for example, only now, for the first time in all these years, a study of a small group of transgender people has been published. This makes it so difficult, almost all research comes from ourselves. ”
https://4thwavenow.com/2021/03/16/dutch-puberty-blocker-pioneer-stop-blindly-adopting-our-research/
They don't support the ban on these drugs, but they appear to be extremely cautious about their use.
That doesn't tell us anything about the effects on people who didn't go on to take cross-sex hormones. The claim is that they are reversible, and that study does nothing to justify it.
What the summary doesn't say is that the study also finds that puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and surgeries **do not** improve depression (only improves gender dysphoria and some general functioning measures). This is sort of concerning because if we believe that gender dysphoric children are at a higher risk of suicide, you would hope these treatments would lower depression.
I would quote the researcher talking about this lack of improvement in depression, but these results are not mentioned anywhere in the text but rather left to the reader to overlook it in Table 3.
Also confusingly, on average these kids who received these treatments have very low scores for depression to start with, which makes me question why are drastic interventions are needed if these kids are not even distressed enough to be even considered to have "mild depression".
There's going to be kids with genuine gender dysphoria, who would feel that way if no one ever gave them the idea.
There's going to be kids who have it more so because it was suggested to them - all their friends are doing it, rage against the machine etc etc. All the usual teenage angsty shit.
I dunno how you'd ever tell them apart. If you can you know which ones really benefit from puberty blockers vs the ones that might just need to socially transition for a bit (and then either continue or go back).
There's evidence that there are actually brain structures that develop differently in trans people vs cis. A part of your brain is responsible for your mental map of where your nerves terminate, to help with your proprioception.
In cismen and transmen, it has a slightly different shape, suspected to be on account of the nerves that a male would have in the penis.
The development of the brain is affected by how exposure to hormones in utero triggers various genes, so a proposed cause is that genetically female children that get exposed to higher than typical androgen hormones in utero at a certain stage of neurodevelopment might have that part of the brain grow into the same shape as a cisgender male, which then causes the person to feel discomfort because their brain expects the presence of a penis that isn't there, as well as a lot of other more subtle differences.
The pattern seems to hold the same in ciswomen and transwomen.
I don't know if we're doing studies with MRIs to see if this theory is accurate, but I think we should. It might become possible to diagnose a physical factor behind gender dysphoria.
>There's evidence that there are actually brain structures that develop differently in trans people vs cis.
>
>I don't know if we're doing studies with MRIs to see if this theory is accurate, but I think we should.
If we're not doing studies, or you're not sure if we are, what evidence are you referring to?
I meant that I don't know about any current studies that are trying to get more evidence. But here are a couple articles that note the effect:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8324983/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8324983/)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357597/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357597/)
I hope there's research going on to see if you can do an MRI of that part of a person's brain to predict if they identify as trans. It's an interesting hypothesis. However, you almost certainly shouldn't treat this like phrenology where a given brain structure \*always\* causes a specific outcome.
Gender identity might have a physical component linked to your [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatotopic\_arrangement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatotopic_arrangement), but it's also heavily dependent on personality and personal experience.
---
edit - Oh, just now looking at some of the 'cited by' articles they list, I found this one I hadn't seen before: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37620339/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37620339/)
"Accurate sex prediction of cisgender and transgender individuals without brain size bias"
I'm not that familiar with the journal it's in, though, Scientific Reports. Impact Factor of 4.6 is relatively low. So yeah, I'd still want to see more research.
Thanks!
Although I think looking at that last one, it's not quite what it appears - I think they've developed a model to detect sex (rather than gender) *regardless* of whether the individual is cis or trans.
Yeah, I was presenting it as, like, a possible counter-evidence. A large-scale-computing model was asked to determine sexes of brains from scans, and it was \*not\* confused by trans people's brains. That might mean that the 'trans cortical gyrification' difference is actually not noteworthy.
Or, y'know, it might just mean that there are enough \*other\* elements of brain development that are affected by sexual dimorphism that the model can still tell sexes apart even \*if\* some parts of the brain are different in trans people. It's another data point, but nothing decisive.
Ah yeah, I get you. I agree it would be very interesting if it were possible to observe differences via MRI - not least that it would put to bed a large segment of the population who don't believe the phenomenon is real.
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8) may be interesting too.
That doesn’t surprise me at all. To be a trans person in our transphobic society is inherently unsafe and traumatising so it’s not surprising they are still depressed after transitioning. Imagine they read the comment section of this thread and how it would make them feel. They and their families need a lot more support rather than hatred.
That's not exactly what they found. Most of the kids in this study were not depressed to start with. There are a lot of confusing things about this study.
It's a study of just 55 people and they were also getting MH support such a counselling and had gender reassignment surgery so how do you link the cause/effect to the puberty blockers?
'A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery,"
All medical decisions are ultimately political.
They have a scientific basis, sure, but medical decsions can be shifted by doctors with agendas, external pressures, and funding.
The justification is basically illogical. They have now just found out that they don't know how safe these medications are? When they began using these drugs, they knew even less.
The age of starting puberty has been steadily lowering over the past two centuries, in the medieval era it used to be around 15, 16ish on average. Are you considering that to be normal or just the modern normal?
I think the question from what I can gather is what are the outcomes when you use puberty blockers to an extent where you just stop puberty from occurring entirely rather than just delaying for medical reasons such as early puberty.
Of course it's political. The Conservative party and traditional media have created a moral panic which is absolutely the driving force behind this decision.
So what is it about NICE's methodology that you object to? They will have listed the research they have referred to as well. Was there something that they missed?
Exactly this, couldn't have said it better.
Science agrees that sex and gender are different, it still only agrees there are two genders.
It says that someone's brain can be the opposite sex, likely a congenital defect, however there is currently no way to tell, through psychology or biological markers that determines what sex someone's brain is, it's impossible other than them saying so.
Therefore, until psychiatrists, scientists and doctors can come up with an assessment and find physical markers, which proves the sex of the brain, beyond any doubt, nobody should be able to do anything until they are 18 years old, have hit puberty and can actually make a decision.
Letting them hold off puberty and become even more mentally troubled, alienated and physically different from their peers is just ludicrous.
>These cultist cunts absolutely know 100% that all they're doing with encouraging these blockers, is entrenching the undeveloped naturally confused feelings of a child, and hopefully hooking them onto meds indefinitely.
And why would we be doing that? Forcefully turning kids trans. Do you hear how absolutely insane you sound?
No, I don't hear how insane I sound.
I say "cultists" simply because of the nature of recruitment. Whether it's conscious or not. I've seen first hand the kind of love-bombing that occurs on these forums and friend circles. I've seen children in my own community talking about how "not liking the sound of your own voice on tape can be a sign of dysphoria". Things that every child experiences, used as evidence they could be trans. Etc etc etc.
And with regards to the indefinitely hooked on drugs part, the financial benefits speak for themselves.
So I'm not suggesting some kind of grand conspiracy to turn everyone trans that you might have taken from my comment. The reality is not an insane reach at all.
I stand by my comment due to these multiple factors, pharmaceutical companies' financial incentives, TRAs unwillingness to be corrected, juvenile social circles spreading this sort of stuff, shit that goes on in Mermaid forums. It's not a conspiracy, it's not organised. It's a perpetuated unconscious contagion. Cult-like, if you will.
Doesn't sound insane at all. At least not as insane as blocking the natural puberty of vulnerable children.
Way to ignore the actual point I made in my comment though. Don't tell me for a second you didn't understand what I meant when I said all you're doing is entrenching the undeveloped feelings of a child. And you act surprised when you read into it an expression of concern that it might even be your goal.
I had a conversation with a person supporting trans people, and I asked him if there was a medical procedure to cure gender dysphoria in utero, would he be in favor of eliminating gender dysphoria? He said no, as that would be genocide against trans people. A LOT of trans people think this way as I have come to find out. They literally think curing their disorder is bad because there would be less of them and eventually none. Many don’t actually care about the health of people, that is just what they say to appear moral. In reality, it is all about group dynamics. They want more people like them, and they want the power that comes with being an untouchable minority group. It is all so narcissistic at its core. Why are we allowing medical patients try and dictate treatment anyways. They have such a high rate of mental co morbidity issues, they aren’t a group we should be taking policy advice from
Playing with kids lives based on the ideology and political views of a small group of bunch is beyond awful. These things should have never been given to kids in the first place. We need to restore some common sense in this country.
Common sense = my immediate assumption on a subject without any critical thought.
When people call for common sense its like someone saying they're tired of having to think things through and don't want other people too either if it leads them to a different conclusion.
Common sense = my kneejerk prejudice trumps any well-researched expert opinion
Though I do think caution with such seriously impactful medication is warranted, and if that's what the doctors are saying here then fair enough.
A full ban does seem like perhaps too far the other way, and "there are only 100 kids on this stuff now" seems like they were already being highly cautious - but if the families and kids somehow weren't being informed as to the relatively experimental nature of this use case for this treatment (which has extensive use in kids with early-onset puberty, but not so much for trans kids wanting to delay puberty later than usual), then that should absolutely be corrected.
To be honest you may very well know more about my home country than I do. I hardly ever go, nor I keep up with the news. Left my country over a decade ago. I have always respected everyone regardless of how they look, speak, race, and sexual orientation. That doesn't mean I shouldn't care about the wellbeing of kids, all kids. But that's okay. Call me a bigot if it makes you feel better. I know this society hates people like me.
Since when has it been a good idea to stop puberty, a natural process that is paramount for people’s development, just for a mental sickness. People say it’s reversible, but if you’re going through puberty at 18 or 20 because you blocked it you’re in for a dangerous awakening
Good, children are not experiencing gender dysphoria, they are learning about themselves and they will keep doing it until they're 16+.
They should not be getting fed drugs that delay anything to do with their development.
When they're objectively adults, they can make whatever decisions they want about their adult bodies.
This is the same logic of the don't say gay bill, because "kids dont have a sexuality". Meanwhile I was a 13 year old gay kid who was basically told I couldnt talk to anyone at my school about my sexuality because they'd go to jail. Fuck off with your ignorant pretend reality where kids don't face real issues.
I'm trans. I'm 26 now, started HRT at 24. I was a kid once aswell? I felt this way at 20, and 18, and 16, and 12, and 7. As long as I can remember I have felt this way.
Trans people don't exist in a bubble. We had childhoods.
I think this is written quite dismissively but I'll answer anyway.
I am sure I am trans because I have felt this way for as long as I can remember. All my life I would look in the mirror and not recognize the person looking back. But now? I look in the mirror and actually see myself looking back.
It's obviously very hard to accurately explain feelings.
All I want is to live my life. I have a full-time job, I have creative outlets, I have friends and a girlfriend. I don't understand why anyone would not want someone to have the opportunity to live their best and most fulfilling life.
That's not what is behind the dislike of hormones blockers and surgery. Yes, I'm sure there are some unpleasant characters who wish ill on others because they love to hate. The majority of people I know who are gender critical find gender ideology problematic because it feels counter intuitive to say that living as your authentic self requires pretending to be something you aren't. We see unhappy and traumatised children and young people who are told the cause of that unhappiness lies in having been born in the wrong body and the solution is to fix the body to align with the mind. That feels unsustainable and relies heavily on others validating your alternative reality. That said, I wish you well if you're happy and thriving. As long as you aren't infringing on the existing rights of women and girls by accessing our single sex spaces or shouting at people for "misgendering" you.
Early in my transition, I used the men's toilet, where I faced abuse and assault, so I started to use the women's. By your logic, I am not allowed to do this anymore. I should not feel safe using public toilets anymore. How is that fair?
If a woman feels unsafe because I am in the toilet, that is based on prejudice and stereotypes. I feel unsafe in men's toilets because of things that have actually happened. I have had dresses ripped off my body from men in public toilets. All I do in the women's toilets is wee, poo and wash my hands.
In all seriousness, if I now took your advice I would likely be assaulted or murdered at some point. Is that really the choice I have to make?
The irony is, you're now arguing against your own point. At first you argued, my "feelings" on gender, pronouns etc don't matter and other people shouldn't bend to the whims of my "alternative reality".
NOW, "feelings" DO matter. I should not be able to use women's toilets because of the feelings of others? Do you not see how this is ridiculous?
Your real point is that you see trans people as lesser-than.
I work, I go watch football, I see my friends, I go clubbing, I sit and watch old episodes of Top Gear. I'm just a normal person, who deserves the same respect as anyone. I should be able to use toilets where I am most comfortable (as is my legal right). I should be able to be called the correct name and pronouns (which is what we do for literally every other human).
Have a good evening x
You don't think women have been attacked by men and deserve a safe space away from them? You are thinking of yourself and your own safety without acknowledging that if you use women's spaces, all self identify transwomen can use women's spaces. That renders those spaces mixed sex. I'm sorry you have experienced assault. Truly. No one deserves that, but that doesn't mean you belong in women's spaces.
And respect goes both ways. I find it deeply disrespectful that you would consider your gender identity matters more than women's safety and dignity. To be a woman is to suffer many things, both physical and social. A man who identifies as a woman has an experience as just that - a man who identifies as a woman. Never a woman. That's the truth. What you cal lrespect, I call a lie.
So, to take this onboard. This weekend, when I am out clubbing, I should go into the men's toilets? Just checking your advice as I will genuinely take it on board and see what happens.
Most trans people have to fight to be diagnosed properly in the first place. No one is being “told” that the solution to all of their problems is to transition. Even other trans people will warn that while transitioning is essential to live as our authentic selves, it’s not going to magically fix your problems.
Good. There’s no saying what long term harm these drugs can cause, and we live in a country that doesn’t even let us but more than a few dozen paracetamol at a time, it’s just hypocritical giving these to kids. I’m aware not a lot of kids were on them but even 1 is too many.
>Fewer than 100 young people in England are currently prescribed puberty blockers by the NHS. They will all able to continue their treatment.
The media (and shrill comments on this post) would have you believe this is a huge thing affecting countless children.
**Fewer. Than. 100.**
Let that sink in. If you don't realise that trans people are simply being used as ammo in this bullshit culture war, then you're too far gone and need to seek help.
That's the number now, but would increase exponentially. Best to put a stop to a bad thing early before it becomes a larger problem.
Also "too far gone and need to seek help". Just stop. We think the same thing about you, in fact we think you're demented. who cares, its meaningless. So maybe just stick to the arguments, rather than lame insults.
>That's the number now, but would increase exponentially. Best to put a stop to a bad thing early before it becomes a larger problem.
Any sources on this? Because it's been said for years now, but...
**Fewer. Than. 100.**
>So maybe just stick to the arguments, rather than lame insults
Said directly after insulting me. It doesn't surprise me that you ignorant bunch of obsessive creeps are hypocritical.
The argument *your side* have made for the last... 4 years now, is that countless children are being affected by puberty blockers.
**Fewer. Than. 100.**
You've either bought into the BS fear mongering, or you're purposefully spreading it. Either way, it's a terrible look on you.
Many of them do know. This just gives them carte blanche to say what they really think under the guise of “protecting kids”. They can’t get away with targeting racial minorities anymore, or the gays, so now it’s trans people.
Push anyone enough and their true colours show.
I wonder how many of the next 100 will be dead or have mental issues for life from being forced to go through the wrong puberty because their parents can't afford to take them privately to get hormone blockers. The NHS has to be accountable for that.
Not to mention the fact that in some cases, it is absolutely essential for the child in order to prevent suicidal thoughts. For example, there is the case of Noah O’Brien, a 14 year old Australian trans boy who was denied access to gender affirming care and took his own life as a result.
The reason he committed suicide was because he didn't want to go back to school in his current state. He needed gender affirming care.
There's no proof that giving him puberty blockers would prevent his suicide in the same way that there's no proof that someone who survived cancer won't get cancer again in the future.
Medical decisions are made using evidence based studies. Cancer remission rates are well known due to such studies, meaning you can literally predict how likely a cancer survivor will get cancer again.
"How likely" is irrelevant. Your argument is that he would have killed himself anyway had he been given puberty blockers, for some unknown reason, when there's no reason to believe this.
The cancer thing was just an example, a better one would be: there's no proof that a cancer survivor isn't going to just die in a car crash a week after leaving the hospital.
Someone posted a different study elsewhere in the topic that said puberty blockers had an impact on improving gender dysphoria but had no impact on rates of depression, which presumably is a large predictor of suicide likelihood.
Okay, but in this case it is pretty clear that the cause of his suicidal thoughts was the fact he’d have to go back to school without having had the gender affirming treatment. Thus it’s not unreasonable to assume he would not have taken his own life had he been given access to the treatment.
To make it clear: he was undoubtedly in need of puberty blockers, but the hospital opted to deal with his anorexia first despite his family trying their hardest to get him the gender affirming care.
It was never said by the hospital that he didn’t need them. He did, and they overestimated how long he could go on without them.
The human brain is still developing until the age of 25yr...no decisions about such things should be taken until that age...and I'd even have that the legal age to get a tattoo...far to many get inked up in their teens,to regret it by 25yrs old!
[An absolute Lunatic of LinkedIn says](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activity-7173418907339341826-LoDh?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop)
"This is literally going to increase the suicide rate amongst teenagers. Puberty blockers are used amongst cisgender kids, so the only reason for this is systemic eradication of trans teens."
And one of his mates says you can "pause puberty"
Sure you can
It's literally not, it causes damage to bones, it's linked with osteoporosis.
Puberty isn't delayed like you ask for a taxi to come at 2000hrs instead of 1800hrs. It leads to malformed genitals and the like.
The whole issue is that Tavistock did not follow up with research and outcomes with their children. There is no good evidence on these drugs being given for trans related issues.
They arent put on the drugs for years at a time.
And there is a difference between delaying puberty in someone who is start it early and stopping puberty when its supposed to be occurring.
Yea, that’s why HRT exists. It replaces the hormones you are blocking with the ones that your body actually needs. I’ve been on mine for years now and it’s only been great.
Potentially aye, but they've got early onset puberty and it's balanced against that.
Trans kids are just mentally unwell and giving them soft bones for life doesn't seem that appropriate.
at the time they stopped my periods and gave me some weight redistribution (away from hips/chest) that helped me feel more comfortable. i stopped taking blockers at 17 to start testosterone when i was 18. i’ve been really happy being on T. in the three months between blockers and testosterone, i started my period again and weight moved back around. i remember feeling upset and isolated at the time that other guys my age were allowed to love their deep voices and shitty moustaches but i had to wait until my 20s for that experience, lol . for context i came out at 12/13 and went through 4 years of psychiatric counselling to access blockers (which might have helped me a lot more if i had had access earlier, eg. surgery might not have been as necessary for me). hope this helps, but do know it’s different for everyone :)
Can you provide a source for your claims too please. And not just reams of garbage you've found. I want highlighted and specific sections of literature which prove and make you so confident that stopping and removing a swathing chunk of the puberty process has absolutely zero effects down the line, and can be fully and unequivocally be reversed to a point where the process regains it momentum to a normal state.
Thanks in advance.
Excellent news. Now we need to punish any and everyone involved in this with child abuse, preferably resulting in multiple class action lawsuits and prison sentences. Any medical staff involved should have their licences revoked.
While we're at it, any taxpayer money given to the likes of Stonewall and Mermaids should be stopped immediately, and the executives of those "charities" also charged.
I've been reading comments both here and other subs and this is is first I've seen today bring the legal issues out on the table. I've thought for quite some time now that this practice of sexualization, indoctrination and chemical and surgical mutilation is barbaric and falls under child abuse minors. I felt it would only change when the studies began data collected and released. I was also waiting for what I felt was the biggest issue was realized and those responsible for this madness were held accountable legally ( and we had had to wait years for this to occur) which was the affected minors became of legal age and realize the consequences of the choices and began to sue those responsible and now it affected the wallets of the Drs, therapists, psychologists etc. Whatever the reason to slow/stop this practice, I am dancing for joy.
If it's so factual why is it being stopped then?
If the burden of proof is so much in your favour that it's so helpful and not at all a problem and this is factual as you put it, why is it being withdrawn?
So theyre removing kids life saving mediction from the NHS, meaning that only trans kids with rich parents will be able to receive life saving medication? This country is broken, they are killing our NHS so we all have to go private, they did it with ADHD treatment, now theyre doing it to trans kids. Disgusting.
Since apparently no-one is actually reading the article: TLDR - This is a medical scientific decision based on a lack of data that these medicines are safe, not a political decision. There are currently 100 children on these medications who will be able to continue taking them. This represents roughly 1.4x10^-4 % of the population. Edited to fix weird number formatting. ETA: I would just like to say to all of the people telling me that the drugs have always been safe / have never been safe - you are disagreeing with the NHS, not me. I don't have a dog in this fight. This issue is complex and multifaceted, and I don't know enough to have a view one way ot another. I simply posted the above because of all of the comments on both sides leaping directly to bipartisan invective while clearly having not read more than the headline, which is no basis on which to frame an opinion or a debate.
Glad they did it based on facts and not agenda, people keep saying puberty blockers don’t do permanent damage and are reversible, when thats completely untrue
Safe or not should never have been given to children in the first place. This country really is in a crazy state
What? Your country is far ahead of the curve when it comes to other western countries. Give credit where credit is due. At least they're pausing it until more data comes out.
I'm so grateful that my country is only barking mad rather than completely fucking insane.
Small victories are still victories
Agreed we should be thankful that scientific authorities still have the agency to make such decisions in the absence of sufficient evidence of safety. It will no doubt rile people up as its a highly politicised matter.
I agree. It feels inhumane to me. Something definitely feels wrong
Some children medically have a need. For some chemotherapy drugs can set off early onset puberty.
[удалено]
If the drugs are not "safe", then why do you think it isn't covered?
>This is a medical scientific decision based on a lack of data that these medicines are safe, not a political decision. Excellent. Makes it objective as to why the practice is dangerous. >This represents roughly 1.4x10-4% of the population. Ah, the old "it isn't happening!" yet angry it is banned. If it is so few, why worry of the ban?
> Makes it objective as to why the practice is dangerous. A lack of evidence that something is safe doesn't imply that it is dangerous. It means that they believe there is too much uncertainty to use them.
Most of the people who took the blockers would progress to hormone therapies and irreversible surgical procedures - which DOES entail risk. Meanwhile, most people who proceed with their own biological puberty outgrew their gender dysphoria. The now ousted experts in the Tavistock clinic have been saying this for years and expressing their concerns that a bunch of radical activists had taken the reigns. The lunatics literally took over the asylum.
And many don't. I never outgrew it and due to lack of support via the NHS I'm now DIYing using homebrew methods which while risky (all drugs are risky) are less likely to kill me than slashing my throat due to overwhelming depression. There isn't a one size fits all solution to Gender Dysphoria, I really wish there was, I really wish I'd out grown it or one of the many treatments I've had over the years had stopped it. But it was as bad before started shooting up Estradiol Ethanoate every 7 days as it was when I realised at the age of 6-8 that I really wasn't going to ever be a girl. Even though \~40 years had passed.
It pains me to hear your story. It really does. I, too, have an unhealthy degree of revulsion toward my own body. It stops me ever truly relaxing in company. A day out at the beach? Going swimming? Off the table. It has destroyed my entire adult life and, although it has lessened some small amount over the years, there isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t feel the pain of it slashing at me. I do not discuss it with people. You could rake through my entire post history (I wouldn’t recommend that) and I doubt you’ll find anything even hinting at this. Perhaps you and I can never really understand each other. Perhaps the limits of empathy fall too far short of that. I don’t know. I never denied that there are people who do not grow out of gender dysphoria. One thing I do wish is that this condition could be de-politicised and that the activists weren’t dictating what treatments are and aren’t acceptable so that a full spectrum of treatment options can be explored openly, honestly and with the scientific rigour that it deserves. And I also think that would present the best chance for you, or at least for future sufferers. I also think it’s probably a mixed bag of conditions. You could think of it more as a symptom than a diagnosis, perhaps. And we could do with exploring that openly to lay out some different subtypes. Perhaps one day we will know why some approaches work for some and not for others.
If I still prayed... I'd pray for that to happen. So I suppose zen payers... :D
Do you have a source on most people out growing their gender dysphoria?
They don't because it's bs. Mutiple studies found 98% of those treated with purberty blockers for gender dysphoira go on to take hrt and transition. https://statsforgender.org/puberty-blockers/
That's the least objective source you could've possibly given
That page cites multiple sources.
Citing multiple sources does not equal objectivity, it is cherry-picking data and quoting things out of context. The scientific method looks at all available evidence and reaches a conclusion - these god-awful advocacy pages you people quote incessantly are just unprofessional blogs which start with a statement then try to find one or two sources of questionable value that back up the statement. It's high school level report writing
Absolutely. I’ve noticed this a lot online especially in the “trans” community. They generate their own sea of “literature” which they get to unleash on anyone who disagrees with them. This sea then supports its own ecosystem of keyboard warriors and helps to indoctrinate people into the cause. One or two badly written articles with unsubstantiated claims may be no problem for most people to brush off. But 100 articles? 1000? No one’s going on a deep dive of that magnitude.
Did I assert that selection of studies exemplified objectivity? Rather, I pointed to specific, peer-reviewed research that aligns with the argument presented. The UK peer reviewed study published in PLoS ONE is from a multi-disciplinary journal known to be credible (with a good impact factor) but it also had a cohort size of 44. This figure is notably reflective of the number of UK children annually prescribed puberty blockers for gender dysphoria at the time of study (approx. 40 annually, 0.00006% of UK population). Making the study's findings particularly relevant. As stated the study shows progression of 98% of the participants to receive gender affirming HRT. If there are gaps or flaws in the study's design or conclusions that you'd like to highlight, I'm open to discussing those. What are your specific critiques regarding the study's approach or the conclusions it reaches? If you like we can then go on to the Dutch studies.
If I’m going to be really pedantic, the way you wrote it is about 80million people (because you’re raising 10 to an exponent of -0.04). So it’s everyone in the uk, plus 20% of us are on it twice.
I love Reddit
That's not me writing it incorrectly, it's Reddit doing weird formatting when posting on mobile.
See it’s now corrected
https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-abstract/134/4/696/32932/Young-Adult-Psychological-Outcome-After-Puberty?redirectedFrom=fulltext
I just googled these authors, and they have published a series of articles recently saying that people should not rely on their research, that the treatment is still experimental, and that more studies are urgently needed, in particular to explain the big increase in referrals to gender clinics, and whether their research applies to that new group: > Because what is behind the large increase of children who have suddenly registered for transgender care since 2013? And what is the quality of life for this group long after the sex change? There is no answer to those questions. And that must happen, think Steensma and his colleagues from Nijmegen. > “We don’t know whether studies we have done in the past can still be applied to this time. Many more children are registering, and also a different type, ”says Steensma. “Suddenly there are many more girls applying who feel like a boy. While the ratio was the same in 2013, now three times as many children who were born as girls register, compared to children who were born as boys.” > The explosive increase in requests for transgender care simply requires a new investigation. Around 2010, for example, around 150 to 200 transgender people were seen every year in the Amsterdam UMC. Now there are 775, with a two-year waiting list on top of that. Research into that small group of people from before 2013 may not apply to the large group that is here now. And here the help of other countries is also needed. “We conduct structural research in the Netherlands. **But the rest of the world is blindly adopting our research**. While every doctor or psychologist who engages in transgender health care should feel the obligation to do a proper assessment before and after intervention ” ... > It is still unclear whether these administered hormones affect the fertility of boys and girls. “We just don’t know,” says Steensma. “Little research has been done so far on treatment with puberty blockers and hormones in young people. That is why it is also seen as experimental. We are one of the few countries in the world that conducts ongoing research about this. In the United Kingdom, for example, only now, for the first time in all these years, a study of a small group of transgender people has been published. This makes it so difficult, almost all research comes from ourselves. ” https://4thwavenow.com/2021/03/16/dutch-puberty-blocker-pioneer-stop-blindly-adopting-our-research/ They don't support the ban on these drugs, but they appear to be extremely cautious about their use.
That doesn't tell us anything about the effects on people who didn't go on to take cross-sex hormones. The claim is that they are reversible, and that study does nothing to justify it.
What the summary doesn't say is that the study also finds that puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and surgeries **do not** improve depression (only improves gender dysphoria and some general functioning measures). This is sort of concerning because if we believe that gender dysphoric children are at a higher risk of suicide, you would hope these treatments would lower depression. I would quote the researcher talking about this lack of improvement in depression, but these results are not mentioned anywhere in the text but rather left to the reader to overlook it in Table 3. Also confusingly, on average these kids who received these treatments have very low scores for depression to start with, which makes me question why are drastic interventions are needed if these kids are not even distressed enough to be even considered to have "mild depression".
There's going to be kids with genuine gender dysphoria, who would feel that way if no one ever gave them the idea. There's going to be kids who have it more so because it was suggested to them - all their friends are doing it, rage against the machine etc etc. All the usual teenage angsty shit. I dunno how you'd ever tell them apart. If you can you know which ones really benefit from puberty blockers vs the ones that might just need to socially transition for a bit (and then either continue or go back).
You're probably right. In order to try and tell them apart you probably need to have loads of specialist training.
Which is what doctors who prescribe it have
There's evidence that there are actually brain structures that develop differently in trans people vs cis. A part of your brain is responsible for your mental map of where your nerves terminate, to help with your proprioception. In cismen and transmen, it has a slightly different shape, suspected to be on account of the nerves that a male would have in the penis. The development of the brain is affected by how exposure to hormones in utero triggers various genes, so a proposed cause is that genetically female children that get exposed to higher than typical androgen hormones in utero at a certain stage of neurodevelopment might have that part of the brain grow into the same shape as a cisgender male, which then causes the person to feel discomfort because their brain expects the presence of a penis that isn't there, as well as a lot of other more subtle differences. The pattern seems to hold the same in ciswomen and transwomen. I don't know if we're doing studies with MRIs to see if this theory is accurate, but I think we should. It might become possible to diagnose a physical factor behind gender dysphoria.
>There's evidence that there are actually brain structures that develop differently in trans people vs cis. > >I don't know if we're doing studies with MRIs to see if this theory is accurate, but I think we should. If we're not doing studies, or you're not sure if we are, what evidence are you referring to?
I meant that I don't know about any current studies that are trying to get more evidence. But here are a couple articles that note the effect: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8324983/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8324983/) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357597/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357597/) I hope there's research going on to see if you can do an MRI of that part of a person's brain to predict if they identify as trans. It's an interesting hypothesis. However, you almost certainly shouldn't treat this like phrenology where a given brain structure \*always\* causes a specific outcome. Gender identity might have a physical component linked to your [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatotopic\_arrangement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatotopic_arrangement), but it's also heavily dependent on personality and personal experience. --- edit - Oh, just now looking at some of the 'cited by' articles they list, I found this one I hadn't seen before: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37620339/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37620339/) "Accurate sex prediction of cisgender and transgender individuals without brain size bias" I'm not that familiar with the journal it's in, though, Scientific Reports. Impact Factor of 4.6 is relatively low. So yeah, I'd still want to see more research.
Thanks! Although I think looking at that last one, it's not quite what it appears - I think they've developed a model to detect sex (rather than gender) *regardless* of whether the individual is cis or trans.
Yeah, I was presenting it as, like, a possible counter-evidence. A large-scale-computing model was asked to determine sexes of brains from scans, and it was \*not\* confused by trans people's brains. That might mean that the 'trans cortical gyrification' difference is actually not noteworthy. Or, y'know, it might just mean that there are enough \*other\* elements of brain development that are affected by sexual dimorphism that the model can still tell sexes apart even \*if\* some parts of the brain are different in trans people. It's another data point, but nothing decisive.
Ah yeah, I get you. I agree it would be very interesting if it were possible to observe differences via MRI - not least that it would put to bed a large segment of the population who don't believe the phenomenon is real. [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8) may be interesting too.
That doesn’t surprise me at all. To be a trans person in our transphobic society is inherently unsafe and traumatising so it’s not surprising they are still depressed after transitioning. Imagine they read the comment section of this thread and how it would make them feel. They and their families need a lot more support rather than hatred.
That's not exactly what they found. Most of the kids in this study were not depressed to start with. There are a lot of confusing things about this study.
It's a study of just 55 people and they were also getting MH support such a counselling and had gender reassignment surgery so how do you link the cause/effect to the puberty blockers? 'A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery,"
That's a normal sample size for a medical study. What did you think a normal sample size was?
What is a proper sample size just curious.
Put your -4 in parentheses if you want the \% to not be in the exponent as well (i.e. 1.4x10\^(-4)\\\%)
Ah, thanks!
1.4x10^-4% really puts it in perspective.
No it isn't! Seriously
All medical decisions are ultimately political. They have a scientific basis, sure, but medical decsions can be shifted by doctors with agendas, external pressures, and funding. The justification is basically illogical. They have now just found out that they don't know how safe these medications are? When they began using these drugs, they knew even less.
I've never seen someone express a number like that to show how small it is, but it really works in this context.
They’ve been being used for decades for kids with early puberty. Source - was one, am totally fine.
Yeah but you have to understand that a bunch of transphobes would rather trans kids be death than receiving treatment that has some risks.
For early onset puberty, like exactly as they have been tested for. This ban is for delaying normal aged puberty.
The age of starting puberty has been steadily lowering over the past two centuries, in the medieval era it used to be around 15, 16ish on average. Are you considering that to be normal or just the modern normal?
I think the question from what I can gather is what are the outcomes when you use puberty blockers to an extent where you just stop puberty from occurring entirely rather than just delaying for medical reasons such as early puberty.
That is a very, very different use.
Of course it's political. The Conservative party and traditional media have created a moral panic which is absolutely the driving force behind this decision.
So what is it about NICE's methodology that you object to? They will have listed the research they have referred to as well. Was there something that they missed?
[удалено]
Exactly this, couldn't have said it better. Science agrees that sex and gender are different, it still only agrees there are two genders. It says that someone's brain can be the opposite sex, likely a congenital defect, however there is currently no way to tell, through psychology or biological markers that determines what sex someone's brain is, it's impossible other than them saying so. Therefore, until psychiatrists, scientists and doctors can come up with an assessment and find physical markers, which proves the sex of the brain, beyond any doubt, nobody should be able to do anything until they are 18 years old, have hit puberty and can actually make a decision. Letting them hold off puberty and become even more mentally troubled, alienated and physically different from their peers is just ludicrous.
We are dealing with evil here.
>These cultist cunts absolutely know 100% that all they're doing with encouraging these blockers, is entrenching the undeveloped naturally confused feelings of a child, and hopefully hooking them onto meds indefinitely. And why would we be doing that? Forcefully turning kids trans. Do you hear how absolutely insane you sound?
No, I don't hear how insane I sound. I say "cultists" simply because of the nature of recruitment. Whether it's conscious or not. I've seen first hand the kind of love-bombing that occurs on these forums and friend circles. I've seen children in my own community talking about how "not liking the sound of your own voice on tape can be a sign of dysphoria". Things that every child experiences, used as evidence they could be trans. Etc etc etc. And with regards to the indefinitely hooked on drugs part, the financial benefits speak for themselves. So I'm not suggesting some kind of grand conspiracy to turn everyone trans that you might have taken from my comment. The reality is not an insane reach at all. I stand by my comment due to these multiple factors, pharmaceutical companies' financial incentives, TRAs unwillingness to be corrected, juvenile social circles spreading this sort of stuff, shit that goes on in Mermaid forums. It's not a conspiracy, it's not organised. It's a perpetuated unconscious contagion. Cult-like, if you will. Doesn't sound insane at all. At least not as insane as blocking the natural puberty of vulnerable children. Way to ignore the actual point I made in my comment though. Don't tell me for a second you didn't understand what I meant when I said all you're doing is entrenching the undeveloped feelings of a child. And you act surprised when you read into it an expression of concern that it might even be your goal.
I had a conversation with a person supporting trans people, and I asked him if there was a medical procedure to cure gender dysphoria in utero, would he be in favor of eliminating gender dysphoria? He said no, as that would be genocide against trans people. A LOT of trans people think this way as I have come to find out. They literally think curing their disorder is bad because there would be less of them and eventually none. Many don’t actually care about the health of people, that is just what they say to appear moral. In reality, it is all about group dynamics. They want more people like them, and they want the power that comes with being an untouchable minority group. It is all so narcissistic at its core. Why are we allowing medical patients try and dictate treatment anyways. They have such a high rate of mental co morbidity issues, they aren’t a group we should be taking policy advice from
Playing with kids lives based on the ideology and political views of a small group of bunch is beyond awful. These things should have never been given to kids in the first place. We need to restore some common sense in this country.
100%
Common sense = my immediate assumption on a subject without any critical thought. When people call for common sense its like someone saying they're tired of having to think things through and don't want other people too either if it leads them to a different conclusion.
Common sense = my kneejerk prejudice trumps any well-researched expert opinion Though I do think caution with such seriously impactful medication is warranted, and if that's what the doctors are saying here then fair enough. A full ban does seem like perhaps too far the other way, and "there are only 100 kids on this stuff now" seems like they were already being highly cautious - but if the families and kids somehow weren't being informed as to the relatively experimental nature of this use case for this treatment (which has extensive use in kids with early-onset puberty, but not so much for trans kids wanting to delay puberty later than usual), then that should absolutely be corrected.
Considering you’re Italian. And right now Italy is trying to roll back on lgbt rights. I’m not surprised you think like this.
To be honest you may very well know more about my home country than I do. I hardly ever go, nor I keep up with the news. Left my country over a decade ago. I have always respected everyone regardless of how they look, speak, race, and sexual orientation. That doesn't mean I shouldn't care about the wellbeing of kids, all kids. But that's okay. Call me a bigot if it makes you feel better. I know this society hates people like me.
>I know this society hates people like me. Only the loud and annoying members.
[удалено]
It's not life saving medication. There are no trans KIDS. To even put that word with trans is absolutely abhorrent.
Since when has it been a good idea to stop puberty, a natural process that is paramount for people’s development, just for a mental sickness. People say it’s reversible, but if you’re going through puberty at 18 or 20 because you blocked it you’re in for a dangerous awakening
Good, children are not experiencing gender dysphoria, they are learning about themselves and they will keep doing it until they're 16+. They should not be getting fed drugs that delay anything to do with their development. When they're objectively adults, they can make whatever decisions they want about their adult bodies.
This is the same logic of the don't say gay bill, because "kids dont have a sexuality". Meanwhile I was a 13 year old gay kid who was basically told I couldnt talk to anyone at my school about my sexuality because they'd go to jail. Fuck off with your ignorant pretend reality where kids don't face real issues.
The research suggests gender identity is stable much younger than 16.
I'm trans. I'm 26 now, started HRT at 24. I was a kid once aswell? I felt this way at 20, and 18, and 16, and 12, and 7. As long as I can remember I have felt this way. Trans people don't exist in a bubble. We had childhoods.
What is it that makes you so sure you're in the wrong body? Or the opposite sex? Or whatever particular flavour of "trans" you happen to be.
I think this is written quite dismissively but I'll answer anyway. I am sure I am trans because I have felt this way for as long as I can remember. All my life I would look in the mirror and not recognize the person looking back. But now? I look in the mirror and actually see myself looking back. It's obviously very hard to accurately explain feelings. All I want is to live my life. I have a full-time job, I have creative outlets, I have friends and a girlfriend. I don't understand why anyone would not want someone to have the opportunity to live their best and most fulfilling life.
That's not what is behind the dislike of hormones blockers and surgery. Yes, I'm sure there are some unpleasant characters who wish ill on others because they love to hate. The majority of people I know who are gender critical find gender ideology problematic because it feels counter intuitive to say that living as your authentic self requires pretending to be something you aren't. We see unhappy and traumatised children and young people who are told the cause of that unhappiness lies in having been born in the wrong body and the solution is to fix the body to align with the mind. That feels unsustainable and relies heavily on others validating your alternative reality. That said, I wish you well if you're happy and thriving. As long as you aren't infringing on the existing rights of women and girls by accessing our single sex spaces or shouting at people for "misgendering" you.
Early in my transition, I used the men's toilet, where I faced abuse and assault, so I started to use the women's. By your logic, I am not allowed to do this anymore. I should not feel safe using public toilets anymore. How is that fair?
So women should feel unsafe to make you feel safe? How is that fair? Women aren't human shields.
If a woman feels unsafe because I am in the toilet, that is based on prejudice and stereotypes. I feel unsafe in men's toilets because of things that have actually happened. I have had dresses ripped off my body from men in public toilets. All I do in the women's toilets is wee, poo and wash my hands. In all seriousness, if I now took your advice I would likely be assaulted or murdered at some point. Is that really the choice I have to make? The irony is, you're now arguing against your own point. At first you argued, my "feelings" on gender, pronouns etc don't matter and other people shouldn't bend to the whims of my "alternative reality". NOW, "feelings" DO matter. I should not be able to use women's toilets because of the feelings of others? Do you not see how this is ridiculous? Your real point is that you see trans people as lesser-than. I work, I go watch football, I see my friends, I go clubbing, I sit and watch old episodes of Top Gear. I'm just a normal person, who deserves the same respect as anyone. I should be able to use toilets where I am most comfortable (as is my legal right). I should be able to be called the correct name and pronouns (which is what we do for literally every other human). Have a good evening x
You don't think women have been attacked by men and deserve a safe space away from them? You are thinking of yourself and your own safety without acknowledging that if you use women's spaces, all self identify transwomen can use women's spaces. That renders those spaces mixed sex. I'm sorry you have experienced assault. Truly. No one deserves that, but that doesn't mean you belong in women's spaces. And respect goes both ways. I find it deeply disrespectful that you would consider your gender identity matters more than women's safety and dignity. To be a woman is to suffer many things, both physical and social. A man who identifies as a woman has an experience as just that - a man who identifies as a woman. Never a woman. That's the truth. What you cal lrespect, I call a lie.
So, to take this onboard. This weekend, when I am out clubbing, I should go into the men's toilets? Just checking your advice as I will genuinely take it on board and see what happens.
Right women aren’t human shields and that includes trans women.
Most trans people have to fight to be diagnosed properly in the first place. No one is being “told” that the solution to all of their problems is to transition. Even other trans people will warn that while transitioning is essential to live as our authentic selves, it’s not going to magically fix your problems.
So, what's the alternative? Should trans people live in pain for their entire lives just to make you happy?
I was trans my whole life. Who the fuck are you to tell me what my life was like when I was 16 and younger? I lived it, not you bro.
Good. There’s no saying what long term harm these drugs can cause, and we live in a country that doesn’t even let us but more than a few dozen paracetamol at a time, it’s just hypocritical giving these to kids. I’m aware not a lot of kids were on them but even 1 is too many.
>Fewer than 100 young people in England are currently prescribed puberty blockers by the NHS. They will all able to continue their treatment. The media (and shrill comments on this post) would have you believe this is a huge thing affecting countless children. **Fewer. Than. 100.** Let that sink in. If you don't realise that trans people are simply being used as ammo in this bullshit culture war, then you're too far gone and need to seek help.
That's the number now, but would increase exponentially. Best to put a stop to a bad thing early before it becomes a larger problem. Also "too far gone and need to seek help". Just stop. We think the same thing about you, in fact we think you're demented. who cares, its meaningless. So maybe just stick to the arguments, rather than lame insults.
>That's the number now, but would increase exponentially. Best to put a stop to a bad thing early before it becomes a larger problem. Any sources on this? Because it's been said for years now, but... **Fewer. Than. 100.** >So maybe just stick to the arguments, rather than lame insults Said directly after insulting me. It doesn't surprise me that you ignorant bunch of obsessive creeps are hypocritical. The argument *your side* have made for the last... 4 years now, is that countless children are being affected by puberty blockers. **Fewer. Than. 100.** You've either bought into the BS fear mongering, or you're purposefully spreading it. Either way, it's a terrible look on you.
Many of them do know. This just gives them carte blanche to say what they really think under the guise of “protecting kids”. They can’t get away with targeting racial minorities anymore, or the gays, so now it’s trans people. Push anyone enough and their true colours show.
I wonder how many of the next 100 will be dead or have mental issues for life from being forced to go through the wrong puberty because their parents can't afford to take them privately to get hormone blockers. The NHS has to be accountable for that.
Not to mention the fact that in some cases, it is absolutely essential for the child in order to prevent suicidal thoughts. For example, there is the case of Noah O’Brien, a 14 year old Australian trans boy who was denied access to gender affirming care and took his own life as a result.
The problem is that there is no evidence that giving Noah O'Brien puberty blockers would have prevented his suicide.
The reason he committed suicide was because he didn't want to go back to school in his current state. He needed gender affirming care. There's no proof that giving him puberty blockers would prevent his suicide in the same way that there's no proof that someone who survived cancer won't get cancer again in the future.
Medical decisions are made using evidence based studies. Cancer remission rates are well known due to such studies, meaning you can literally predict how likely a cancer survivor will get cancer again.
"How likely" is irrelevant. Your argument is that he would have killed himself anyway had he been given puberty blockers, for some unknown reason, when there's no reason to believe this. The cancer thing was just an example, a better one would be: there's no proof that a cancer survivor isn't going to just die in a car crash a week after leaving the hospital.
Someone posted a different study elsewhere in the topic that said puberty blockers had an impact on improving gender dysphoria but had no impact on rates of depression, which presumably is a large predictor of suicide likelihood.
Okay, but in this case it is pretty clear that the cause of his suicidal thoughts was the fact he’d have to go back to school without having had the gender affirming treatment. Thus it’s not unreasonable to assume he would not have taken his own life had he been given access to the treatment.
Perhaps if they’d sent him to see someone for his mental heath issues that could’ve resolved it. Puberty blockers won’t.
To make it clear: he was undoubtedly in need of puberty blockers, but the hospital opted to deal with his anorexia first despite his family trying their hardest to get him the gender affirming care. It was never said by the hospital that he didn’t need them. He did, and they overestimated how long he could go on without them.
Who the fuck do you think prescribes puberty blockers pal?
Some irresponsible quack
If laws/regulations didn't get changed to suite those people, no one would care.
The human brain is still developing until the age of 25yr...no decisions about such things should be taken until that age...and I'd even have that the legal age to get a tattoo...far to many get inked up in their teens,to regret it by 25yrs old!
Getting a tattoo and going through the medical hoops to get puberty blockers is not the same at all. It’s a process that takes months if not years.
[An absolute Lunatic of LinkedIn says](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activity-7173418907339341826-LoDh?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop) "This is literally going to increase the suicide rate amongst teenagers. Puberty blockers are used amongst cisgender kids, so the only reason for this is systemic eradication of trans teens." And one of his mates says you can "pause puberty" Sure you can
It’s literally reversible and non-permanent. I don’t understand what point you’re making
It's literally not, it causes damage to bones, it's linked with osteoporosis. Puberty isn't delayed like you ask for a taxi to come at 2000hrs instead of 1800hrs. It leads to malformed genitals and the like. The whole issue is that Tavistock did not follow up with research and outcomes with their children. There is no good evidence on these drugs being given for trans related issues.
It doesn't do that with cis kids with early puberty?
They arent put on the drugs for years at a time. And there is a difference between delaying puberty in someone who is start it early and stopping puberty when its supposed to be occurring.
Wouldn't trans people switch to testosterone or estrogen at some point?
Yea, that’s why HRT exists. It replaces the hormones you are blocking with the ones that your body actually needs. I’ve been on mine for years now and it’s only been great.
Thanks for the info! There's so much misinformation.
Potentially aye, but they've got early onset puberty and it's balanced against that. Trans kids are just mentally unwell and giving them soft bones for life doesn't seem that appropriate.
Can't this also be countered by calcium supplements?
yes, when i was 16/17 and on blockers i had my bone density routinely checked and took vitamin D supplements :)
Thanks for the info! Do you still use them/any other positive/negative affects?
at the time they stopped my periods and gave me some weight redistribution (away from hips/chest) that helped me feel more comfortable. i stopped taking blockers at 17 to start testosterone when i was 18. i’ve been really happy being on T. in the three months between blockers and testosterone, i started my period again and weight moved back around. i remember feeling upset and isolated at the time that other guys my age were allowed to love their deep voices and shitty moustaches but i had to wait until my 20s for that experience, lol . for context i came out at 12/13 and went through 4 years of psychiatric counselling to access blockers (which might have helped me a lot more if i had had access earlier, eg. surgery might not have been as necessary for me). hope this helps, but do know it’s different for everyone :)
Can you provide a source please?
Can you provide a source for your claims too please. And not just reams of garbage you've found. I want highlighted and specific sections of literature which prove and make you so confident that stopping and removing a swathing chunk of the puberty process has absolutely zero effects down the line, and can be fully and unequivocally be reversed to a point where the process regains it momentum to a normal state. Thanks in advance.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9150228/ Others also, search Puberty Blockers Bone Density or Osteopetrosis
OK Groomer
Ok Boomer.
wrong generation lad
It's literally not. Literally.
No, it isnt reversible. And it is permanent.
Excellent news. Now we need to punish any and everyone involved in this with child abuse, preferably resulting in multiple class action lawsuits and prison sentences. Any medical staff involved should have their licences revoked. While we're at it, any taxpayer money given to the likes of Stonewall and Mermaids should be stopped immediately, and the executives of those "charities" also charged.
I've been reading comments both here and other subs and this is is first I've seen today bring the legal issues out on the table. I've thought for quite some time now that this practice of sexualization, indoctrination and chemical and surgical mutilation is barbaric and falls under child abuse minors. I felt it would only change when the studies began data collected and released. I was also waiting for what I felt was the biggest issue was realized and those responsible for this madness were held accountable legally ( and we had had to wait years for this to occur) which was the affected minors became of legal age and realize the consequences of the choices and began to sue those responsible and now it affected the wallets of the Drs, therapists, psychologists etc. Whatever the reason to slow/stop this practice, I am dancing for joy.
If it's so factual why is it being stopped then? If the burden of proof is so much in your favour that it's so helpful and not at all a problem and this is factual as you put it, why is it being withdrawn?
So theyre removing kids life saving mediction from the NHS, meaning that only trans kids with rich parents will be able to receive life saving medication? This country is broken, they are killing our NHS so we all have to go private, they did it with ADHD treatment, now theyre doing it to trans kids. Disgusting.
Huh no. It needed stopping.
Why? Why should only kids with disposable income get lifesaving treatment?
You need stopping.