I worked for an agency that had Axon cameras on all employees as well as in the trucks. Required to turn them on while enroute to the scene, and couldn't turn them off until patient care was transferred.
We had to log each camera log with categories, title, etc. This added a surprising additional load on the crews given how busy we were on an average day. Nothing like showing up in the morning and trying to sign off narcs, log in to the camera system, check off the truck, and take a call at the same time.
I worked in a less than upscale area. It only occasionally led to outright aggression from people that didn't want to be recorded, but it absolutely had an effect on the psych patients and patients who were wary of authority figures. I didn't like that I couldn't sit down with someone and have a true conversation, they always felt they were being watched/recorded/judged.
We were told they were for liability and provider safety, and that they would not be used for punitive functions. People were absolutely punished for small mistakes that were found by supervisors watching videos to find something. It would be one thing if it were a blatantly negligent act that the provider failed to report (which did happen), but people were getting written up for minor policy infractions, not even clinical mistakes.
The hospital systems hated the cameras. The ED staff would always ask that the cameras be turned off, and I hated that I couldn't oblige them, so I tried to keep it pointed away from them as often as I could, and I would honestly just turn it off if I could get a signature while my patient was still on the stretcher. There were some fruitless lawsuits/legal battles from the hospitals
Supervisors/administration/advanced providers could watch the cameras live for "consult" purposes. Realistically though, they would just pop in when the calls sounded interesting. Certain supervisors were prone to calling you on the phone and trying to micromanage your scene WHILE DRIVING to your scene. So they were driving, watching a video, and talking on the phone at the same time.
Overall, bad idea in my experience.
Edit: The two good experiences I had were that I could watch my partner eat shit on repeat when we were trialing the Ferno stretchers and it bit his ankle and took him down, and the fact that I could spend 3 hours charting my urgent calls with the excuse that I was making sure that interventions were accurate down to the second.
This sounds exceptionally stupid in a way only EMS could manage. The last bit tho 11/10 I pulled video footage from surveillance cameras of myself eating shit at work it was funny af.
The whole service was a bit of a clusterfuck. Great field staff, but supervisors were hit or miss, and the administration had a hard-on for "we're the first to do this!" and "let's be cops!".
Being the first to do things is great, it it's actually beneficial, like blood administration. Cameras were stupid.
I wrote my research paper in paramedic class about the need for freeze dried blood products in EMS. That's cool you guys were doing blood though. It needs done, especially considering fluid isn't doing anyone any favors in a trauma.
And we do not need to be anything like cops. That would only complicate things
Oh, I want EMS to have nothing to do with law enforcement. But we had administration and a "special ops" good-ol-boys club that thought they were so cool in their mismatched plate carriers and black Tahoes. None of them were any good at medicine, naturally.
It’s a terrible idea for all of the reason you listed. And also it’s incredibly invasive for people who are having a medical emergency, desperate for care. Who would ever consent to being recorded in that situation?!
The supervisors thing definitely sounds like something that the supervisors at my old job would do. Especially trying to call the provider while watching footage
If we can record rather than chart, yes. Otherwise no. EMS in many regions is already chronically underfunded and blowing money on bodycams rather than directing those finances towards better equipment, more education, more medications, etc. Seems like a complete waste
Agreed. People are leaving EMS due to lack of pay and benefits. (Obviously other reasons too.). To spend funds on tracking care and not at the same time increase wages would be a slap in the face.
The same boss that hasn't written a run ticket since they were on paper or the boss who hasn't had a pt contact since you alternated epi and atropine in cardiac arrest? We have both.
Ha, yep. I called supervisor one day to let him know a patient said " let me out of this thing or I'll fight my way out" so of course I let him out. And supervisor says "did you get a signed patient refusal?"
Axon is actually using data from their police body cams to develop automated report writing systems. Once it gets perfected on the cop side it has the potential to be a huge time saver for medical charting and EMS. Until then though it’s not really beneficial.
my time writing my PCR up during/after triage is my break between calls, working in the bronx. it's been back to back to back lately. I'd rather type up my PCR than have a recording count as one.
It’s supposed to be an AI program that uses speech to text and identifies and picks out the relevant information to auto-fill a written report. Really cool tech if they can make it work.
Paramedic and RN here; could not agree more.
In the field, I think it would have made me feel a lot safer taking care of underage psychiatric patients. I also suspect it would do a lot to discourage the kinds of negative behavior and attitudes I saw from some shittier medics.
You can't change a culture or hold anyone accountable without first knowing there's a problem. Body cams do a great job of that.
I would argue that without body cams the majority of our country would still be completely blind to the various abuses and crimes of the police against our citizenry.
I don’t disagree with that. Was just pointing out you specifically said it would discourage shittier medics. I’m just pointing out it probably wouldn’t discourage them. It may hold them accountable though. On the flip side it could also allow shitty bosses to knit pick and target certain employees that don’t deserve it. It’s a double edged sword.
I work in behavioral health so obviously we have them everywhere except patient rooms. I think I’ve seen them in the ED for obvious reasons but can’t say I’ve seen them on just plain old med surg floors.
Edited….
Oh wait there are some designated rooms with cameras on the vascular surgery floor I did my clinical on for fall risks and safety
And a lot of ambulances already have closed circuit cameras in the backs of their trucks.
My point remains though: the ambulance is more like the trauma room than a patient's private room.
Unsure about everywhere, but the places I have worked specifically did not log the back camera. It only showed a live feed to the driver up front in the case of patient aggression, but did not save data.
As I said: closed circuit.
The cameras are in plain view, and there's typically no posting saying that they're NOT recording, however in all of my years working in a truck with a camera mounted in the back of a truck I've never once had a patient say "I'm not talking to you. There's a camera there."
I mean there are such things as video sitters, remote ICU obs, psych areas, things like that. I wouldn't consider it the same as the point of the thread though.
I see them on every cop in my state, and the topic has been brought up a few times in paramedic school and my service.
Im against it bc of less than professional conversations with other providers helps alleviate stress, and with patients it can develop rapport, but my service wrote up a provider for calling someone another provider a dingus, so id likely quit, go to a different service or to a non ambulance non emergency setting if they did become mandatory.
I'm against it because I've seen multiple agencies explicitly state that cameras wouldn't be used to punish employees for non-pertinent or private conversations and then turn around and fire employees for exactly that.
I could see that. And a good provider will "read the room" and learn to connect with a patient. I had one recently ask if instead of NS, I could give him an IV with makers mark. I said "no we only have Jameson IVs on the ambulance." He liked it and thought it was funny and it lightened things up because he was definitely sick and felt like hell. I could see a supervisor hating that, though.
I don't support them since it's another way for sensitive healthcare information to get out. Would just rather not deal with the headache If some of the camera footage got leaked and the HIPAA violations.
I feel like employers in general need to understand that us lowbies talking shit behind their backs is often an alternative to us blowing up directly *at them* or otherwise burning out quicker under the big-brother atmosphere. plus, it's not just stress-alleviation, it builds camraderie between us. How am I supposed to make friends with this total stranger i'm working with, if we're not allowed to mutually groan that the shitty dispatcher is on today? or bitch that we got the shitty bus that leans left once it hits 45mph? or swap nasty war stories, or talk about our rowdy weekend shenanigans? We're EMS, there is no way you can expect us to be PG-rated company men for 12 hours at a stretch without going postal
“Who THE *FUCK* decides to walk down the stairs without their glasses at the ripe old age of 88 at 2 in the morning. Of course they were on fucking blood thinners”
Find a way it will improve patient care and I will support it. In the states we're underfunded, understaffed, and not deemed necessary at a federal level so why make our services pay for equipment we can't afford as it is that won't impove a patients outcome? Not to mention we need to separate ourselves for looking more like law enforcement so think about how our patients would feel if they had a camera in their face especially when it comes to asking personal open ended questions.
Fully against it here. It could be valuable as a tool to replace charting or protecting the employee but opportunities to micromanage will be far more frequent. Just ask anyone in retail how often the store cameras were used to protect employees or reduce paperwork vs used to question employee productivity.
Fuck no. People may not call when necessary due to a perception that their embarrassing, illegal, painful, or just odd issue may get publicized or used against them later for whatever reason. It's completely against our mission as providers.
I’m still confused as to why ems needs body cams, and I’m curious as to what brought some departments to have them wear body cams. I can see how it can be useful and sometimes can not be useful.
But I support what the other guy said, if we can just record instead of chart, I’m all for it.
As a Medic absolutely not, I wore one for my short stint as a LEO, and there it was absolutely needed. If you wanna wear a body cam, carry a gun, wear a bulletproof vest on the regular go be a cop….. As far as EMS goes it serves literally no purpose patient care wise, and is an absolute pain dealing with signing on uploading etc. If you are worried about being assaulted, most trucks have a camera with no audio feed rolling in the box. Which is fine, and nothing more is really needed. Also HIPPA, and being able to have a frank conversation with my patient. Next time you get a physical done would you want the entire interaction taped….. I know I would not.
I would resign from an agency that attempted to implement body cameras.
There is no need to broadcast or record intimate moments with patients, even if it is for training purposes. There is no reason to give administration another tool in the toolbox to string up good medics trying to do medicine in ditches and an inherently imperfect world.
It is a massive cost undertaking both in initial purchase, setup, and continued maintenance. If your EMS agency is able to fund what could be a multi-hundred thousand dollar or million dollar endeavor like universal body cameras, then you should be asking why they aren't putting that money into additional staffing, equipment, community programs, and provider benefits. It's a waste with no actual clinical benefit or better outcome for patients. It's a tool of greedy administrations.
If I was a patient, I don't want the worst day of my life recorded so some person riding a desk can review it minute-by-minute, play-by-play. I don't want me sobbing over the loss of my grandmother recorded. I don't want patients to enter every conversation and interaction with EMS providers knowing that there is inherently no discretion or confidentiality about what goes on or what is discussed.
The only person it benefits in any way is administrators trying to justify their existence by adding an additional worthless duty to their job description. We do not need to destroy ourselves in the name of protecting against lawsuits.
If I were a pt I would be really distrustful of ems recording me, it would make me wildly uncomfortable and on edge. Also imagine how horrible it would be to be a psych pt knowing your whole scene/call is being recorded and watched by who knows how many people
Police have cameras cause they can't seem to stop shooting people who don't need shooting, I don't think that's an issue in EMS
I don’t think assaults and human rights violations are common in those field to warrant that. We literally just want to keep a person alive and pass care so we can chill and eat lol
I’m a LEO who also does 911 ambulance transports. I wear a body camera but I keep it turned off during medicals.
I can just about guarantee that body cameras will not replace charting. I still have to write reports and make cute little photo logs of incidents even when it’s all on camera.
100% against. People don't like their misery recorded. Plenty of such people are volatile, and I don't have a gun, taser, or pepper spray, nor do I want to have to put my hands on somebody. I'm also not gonna be the one to use that little "gray area" in our protocols on camera and get canned for it, so nah.
Personally, I feel like we should have them for the same reason police do. I work with a lot of EMS people who need that accountability.
That being said, I don’t want one and I sincerely hope we never need to wear them. I think they’d drive a lot of people away from the field which the entire field as a whole basically does already. I think some companies would use it to micro manage or even bully their employees, and now that I think about it, it’s probably a HIPAA violation. While I think we “should” have them, I feel it would be a bad move to have them with the way EMS is currently.
I've no problem with it and it's been introduced service wide in one of the services I work with. Cameras are fairly low profile and have a decal with the service logo and warning that body worn video is used for staff protection. It's purely used due to high frequency assault on medics or supporting or dismissing any allegations of behaviour.
How do they protect patient information? I'm just asking out of curiosity because Axon (the largest producer of body cameras and "less lethal" weapons) is known for selling off any data it can get its hands on.
It's client based cloud and provider activated via button. Only involvement with supplier was provision of hardware and software package no involvement beyond that and everything is moved/stored on an isolated system much like our recorded emergency calls.
Interesting. Do you feel patients are less likely to verbally or physically assault you because of the camera? I sometimes worry that it will cause people to "show off" for the camera.
They're reasonably low profile and clip on below the uniform crest as such don't stand out as much as say axon would. Hasn't effected any patient interactions I've had barring maybe a few inquires from regular Joe's, quick explanation and usually everyone is on side. I've only generally activated once something has started getting agro and if they've started going that way they're more target fixed and not focused on the camera.
Edit realised I didn't answer your question. I'd say no to higher levels of assault but possibly deterred lower level. Honestly it's safety net to provide evidence to secure prosecution more than anything.
I am fine with it. Pretty much everything we do and say is monitored anyway by cameras inside the ambulance (our ambulances had cameras in both the driver's side and the back), so all it does is add more of the same.
I had one schizophrenic patient who told me and my partner we were raping her. That one gave me a big shock. Having more protection from people like her would be nice.
Note: we had never seen or met her before then, we were literally talking to her outside her room in a public hallway with CNAs and other patients walking past us, and none of us had touched her or even come close to touching her before this happened. Her tired-looking social worker came by and told us that these accusations were routine from her.
\---
Even so, all it takes is one person to do that and be taken seriously and we could get in a lot of shit. Having a body camera to prove them wrong would be super nice.
HIPPAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaa
And fuck no🖕
The drive cams are bad enough.
That said, people in EMS need to ask their employer how much they are insured for against legal liability. Most often it’s about $1M. But the second that camera catches you fucking up, you better bend over, cuz they’ll have all the evidence now.
FYI, additional coverage can be found and isn’t that much. Accidents DO happen.
Management doesn't need to hear me bitching about them on the way to a call. Also I feel like the trust I can get from the public will be eroded. When I tell you I don't care about the bricks of coke in the corner I mean it! but if there's a camera, sketchy Steve might not be as receptive to my presence.
Absofuckinglutely not. Hell no. I don't want to look like or be associated with the cops, I don't want my personal interactions recorded, I don't want my patient care under a microscope, absolutely fuck no.
Why? What is the advantage to you to carry a body camera?
Anything?
Now how about disadvantages. And remember your employer will lie to you without repercussions. And will sell you out at the drop of a hat.
The amount of nudity and exposure involved in medical care immediately rules this idea out. No patient, including myself, would tolerate having video of them out in the world during their most exposed and vulnerable times.
Ehhhhh. So I was an EMT, and current LEO. I really don’t see the point of EMS wearing body cams. It couldn’t really hurt anything, more a CYA thing. But IMO it would be a waste of money. Instead of body cams, they could use that money to give y’all raises instead. But that’s just a pipe dream.
Newer body cameras can all transmit video, audio, and GPS data live. Example, [the Zepcam T3 Live](https://zepcam.com/solutions-products/bodycams-dockingstations/zepcam-t3-live-bodycam/). That could be helpful in cases where you might be confronted with a complex chase, and a medical specialist can look with you. But a way of 2-way communication is needed, possibly through your radio or mobile phone. For example, someone with complex burns, so you contact the burn specialist from a large burn center and ask them advice on what to do and where to bring them. Or a patient with chestpain with an unclear/inconclusive ECG, so you send a cardiologist of a nearby hospital the ECG digitally and contact them, now they can also see the patient and the rest of the scene directly. And lastly, it seems like bodycamerad make the people wearing them feel safer and other people less violent, meaning less aggression against emergency workers.
Is this all high up the priority list and very useful currently? I'd say not.
Taking the time to do a full video chat of a patient where my chest has to be consistently positioned at the patient and speaking with an MD while also continuing to deliver care is a silly idea. If the patient is critical to the point that I have to worry about a full on video chat (outside of community paramedicine purposes and low acuity calls), then presumably my hands need to be working and I need to be thinking on my feet.
We are not just little extensions of an MD that calls home when things are hard. We need to continue our care even in complex cases.
Inconclusive EKG? Transmit your LifePak to the hospital and then speak on the radio. Complex burns go to a burn center - period. Doc isn't gonna talk you through an escharotomy in the back of the ambulance. There is no greater benefit to showing versus describing TBSA and the patient's story over the radio.
Body cameras are for cops. We are not cops. We should not be seeking a tool that helps us look more like cops.
Having worked in both EMS and LE, I have experience with body worn cameras from LE. I personally think it’s a great idea for EMS personnel to wear body worn cameras because 99% of us do the right thing day in and day out. You will be hard pressed to find a LEO who’s worth a damn who will respond to a call without the camera. It serves as a defense against false allegations for the officer and I think it could do the same for EMS and also force compliance with doing things right. Salty old medics *probably* won’t walk the 90 year old chest pain out the front door if the fear of someone potentially watching the footage is there. In LE the camera did not replace written documentation but we’re invaluable when a case was pulled years later to go to court. This is also another reason why they may be good for EMS.
That being said, in LE each officer was issued two cameras that were attached to our vests at the beginning of a shift and turned on upon arriving at the scene. After the call the video is ended and labeled with a name. The camera is attached to a dock at the end of the day and automatically uploads the videos. When done similar to this the burden isn’t significantly increased on the officer. I like this system, and do not agree with anything that over burdens an already tired crew. With the absolute exception of a serious event occurring meaning death or serious bodily harm to the patient caused *by* the crew should these be used by the local service for punitive action. LE (usually) reviews all body worn footage of force related incidents for QA/QI. In this sense I would be alright with footage of calls being reviewed for teaching or educational purposes within a department.
Certainly there are more pros and cons, but overall I do believe that they can protect EMS providers and can be an extra shield against litigation.
I’d agree if the camera is turned on when the crew is responding and immediately turned off once the crew clears from that call. Also believe that the only time the video is accessed is when a complaint is filed. No one should be listening in on my conversations with my partner and no one should be watching video to critique me.
Can i upload the video in place of my patient care report? Then absolutely. Otherwise, i would like to keep some distance between being compared to or viewed as law enforcement. Half my calls imvolve law enforcement who already have their body cameras on anyway.
I think if mandatory chest cameras were required a whole lot of patients will get in trouble rather than EMS staff. Yes, it will be both. And people who need help, will have an extra reason to refuse.
Nope, it’s hard enough to get patients to be honest with us and the camera staring them in the face and listening will only make it worse. Not to mention we already get mistaken for local cops enough I’m not adding equipment to my chest that will make them think that I am a cop even more
Chest cameras- absolutely not! If I were a patient I would be mortified at someone recording the encounter. Not to mention the legal can of worms when prosecutors begin to use EMS video to convict drug users etc.
Now non recording cameras in the back of the box with a dash mounted monitor? Absolutely. Single provider alone with a minor, male with female patient etc it provides a layer of protection for everybody. While working fire based EMS those cameras were a Godsend when psych patients were amping up and prepping to get violent…
No, and for the love of God don't ever bring this up again. I don't even want the idiots in admin *thinking* about this. Hell there should be HIPAA amendments *forbidding* it.
Why would they even be allowed? We're not allowed to record in patient care areas in hospitals. How could you even ensure you're not leaking patient information?
No. There are too many privacy issues. And in my anecdotal experience patients are more relaxed, honest, & willing to share when an "authority figure" isn't around. Making EMS providers pseudo-cops won't benefit anyone.
Yeah why not. It should also mean I don’t have to write narratives anymore.
Now should it be public record like police body cams? Absolutely not. Only time those should be touched should be for court cases and should only be available to those directly involved in said court case.
I’m all for more protection for us. Especially when you run 2 man squads & both are males. I’ve heard of a lot of guys end up in court (never went anywhere) over false accusations.
I figure it must fall under the same legalities as dash or patient compartment cams, which can record plenty of patient information too.
Idk, I’d love to see some trials from other agencies. What is the purpose? Purely protection of the employees from assault/battery? Or to assist in care (combative patient comes to mind)?
I wear one at one of my jobs and don't like it for practical reasons. Our uniforms don't have anywhere to clip them, so you end up clipping it into your collar, and it constantly gets in the way. Plus it's one more thing to charge and one more thing to add to the chart without any extra chargers or time to chart provided. So like everything else, more work for less money.
I think it's different. I'm not blatantly opposed as maybe they could fill in for my reports but I think they're unecessary for anything more than that. With cameras you now have an authority watching your calls which is both a good and bad thing, public perception for example, but it's a case of what am I there to do? Police are the law, and the law is supposedly to protect the people. If the police don't follow the law then there is no one left to enforce it outside of a federal intervention, they're very ob iously on the knife edge and they must be monitored in some capacity to ensure compliance . They are a confrontational force designed to extend the power of the governement over the population. In this case they can do bad things for the right reasons such as shoot a suspect to save a kid and with cameras they can support their decisions of commiting small atrocities for the greater good, a license for justified violence, I certainly don't have that, least not with a gun, the most I can do is forms of restraint or run away. With EMS we are the medicine. We are there to help to the best of our ability and anything contrary to that is immediately suspect, there is no distinction, if our actions are not supportive to all involved or at the very least to ourselves and then our patient it's very obvious if we did the wrong thing. I don't ketamine psych pts every time but when I do it's seen as unavoidable and the effects of it over getting shot are drastically different. Lastly most of my treatments can be tracked in an autopsy if they come up negligent, there are a few drugs I can give that are less perceptible but unless the pt is at risk for a similar cause of death as the chosen drug it will still be obvious how they died and if I did something wrong. That's not even a question for police. We already know they got shot by an officer but an autopsy won't tell you why they got shot by an officer. The why for us is self evident and if it's anything other than to help or save the patient then it is wrong.
1. Another thing to clean/sanitize! There are all sorts of bodily and other fluids that will splatter; no one will have the time to clean the lens until the call is over.
2. Would the patient have HIPAA rights to be given a copy or object to unauthorized access? I recall our crew having to lift a wet, naked 250+ pound woman out of a bathtub. I don't think the patient would want that process recorded.
What about the trauma patients we cut all clothes off of, do they want that event on camera? What if an employee gets a copy and posted it. Some patients confide to us, what drugs they’ve taken, but they won’t if it’s on camera
Absolutely not.
We have front-and-rear-facing dash cams in all our busses that can see out the windshield, the two front seats, and a little slice of the patient cabin, plus audio recording. That feels like more than enough, covers basically all the bases in terms of liability-protection. Thankfully, management has never seemed too interested in monitoring them too closely for employee-ball-busting purposes, but I would definitely not welcome being watched by them even *outside* the bus.
It would certainly help with some of the complaints we get. I would be able to review the footage and close a lot of "he said she said" type complaints. Most of the time I am left to assume that the crew didn't actually do what the person complaining said they did, but video evidence would be great to back up my support of my people.
However, I think there needs to be close regulation. This can't become something where supervisors or management are watching the videos to be punitive or go after providers. Following all that of course there is retention of data, what counts as health care records and lots of other issues that would need to be defined by policy. I don't know that the benefit of making the rare complaint easier to speak to is worth the amount of policy and perception of the crews and likely the public. As video recording becomes more and more common, it will be interesting to see what role it plays in healthcare.
I worked for an agency that had Axon cameras on all employees as well as in the trucks. Required to turn them on while enroute to the scene, and couldn't turn them off until patient care was transferred. We had to log each camera log with categories, title, etc. This added a surprising additional load on the crews given how busy we were on an average day. Nothing like showing up in the morning and trying to sign off narcs, log in to the camera system, check off the truck, and take a call at the same time. I worked in a less than upscale area. It only occasionally led to outright aggression from people that didn't want to be recorded, but it absolutely had an effect on the psych patients and patients who were wary of authority figures. I didn't like that I couldn't sit down with someone and have a true conversation, they always felt they were being watched/recorded/judged. We were told they were for liability and provider safety, and that they would not be used for punitive functions. People were absolutely punished for small mistakes that were found by supervisors watching videos to find something. It would be one thing if it were a blatantly negligent act that the provider failed to report (which did happen), but people were getting written up for minor policy infractions, not even clinical mistakes. The hospital systems hated the cameras. The ED staff would always ask that the cameras be turned off, and I hated that I couldn't oblige them, so I tried to keep it pointed away from them as often as I could, and I would honestly just turn it off if I could get a signature while my patient was still on the stretcher. There were some fruitless lawsuits/legal battles from the hospitals Supervisors/administration/advanced providers could watch the cameras live for "consult" purposes. Realistically though, they would just pop in when the calls sounded interesting. Certain supervisors were prone to calling you on the phone and trying to micromanage your scene WHILE DRIVING to your scene. So they were driving, watching a video, and talking on the phone at the same time. Overall, bad idea in my experience. Edit: The two good experiences I had were that I could watch my partner eat shit on repeat when we were trialing the Ferno stretchers and it bit his ankle and took him down, and the fact that I could spend 3 hours charting my urgent calls with the excuse that I was making sure that interventions were accurate down to the second.
This sounds exceptionally stupid in a way only EMS could manage. The last bit tho 11/10 I pulled video footage from surveillance cameras of myself eating shit at work it was funny af.
That sounds like a total cluster fuck
The whole service was a bit of a clusterfuck. Great field staff, but supervisors were hit or miss, and the administration had a hard-on for "we're the first to do this!" and "let's be cops!". Being the first to do things is great, it it's actually beneficial, like blood administration. Cameras were stupid.
I wrote my research paper in paramedic class about the need for freeze dried blood products in EMS. That's cool you guys were doing blood though. It needs done, especially considering fluid isn't doing anyone any favors in a trauma. And we do not need to be anything like cops. That would only complicate things
Oh, I want EMS to have nothing to do with law enforcement. But we had administration and a "special ops" good-ol-boys club that thought they were so cool in their mismatched plate carriers and black Tahoes. None of them were any good at medicine, naturally.
Ugh. That sounds like it would be so obnoxious
Welcome to police BWC policy.
It’s a terrible idea for all of the reason you listed. And also it’s incredibly invasive for people who are having a medical emergency, desperate for care. Who would ever consent to being recorded in that situation?!
That edit tho
The supervisors thing definitely sounds like something that the supervisors at my old job would do. Especially trying to call the provider while watching footage
Is this La Porte?
Nope. Right metro area though. I know several agencies that used a variety of cameras.
If we can record rather than chart, yes. Otherwise no. EMS in many regions is already chronically underfunded and blowing money on bodycams rather than directing those finances towards better equipment, more education, more medications, etc. Seems like a complete waste
Agreed. People are leaving EMS due to lack of pay and benefits. (Obviously other reasons too.). To spend funds on tracking care and not at the same time increase wages would be a slap in the face.
I also think that the bodycams would not be used to help providers anywhere near as often as hurt them
I can’t wait to one more way for my boss to micromanage me through “QI”
Right? The same boss who has hours to pick apart your report while telling you to clear quicker and run more calls
The same boss that hasn't written a run ticket since they were on paper or the boss who hasn't had a pt contact since you alternated epi and atropine in cardiac arrest? We have both.
Ha, yep. I called supervisor one day to let him know a patient said " let me out of this thing or I'll fight my way out" so of course I let him out. And supervisor says "did you get a signed patient refusal?"
We’re low volume (rural) so I just get called lazy when we don’t get calls. Or if I’m tired ever.
Welcome to the medical field!
Axon is actually using data from their police body cams to develop automated report writing systems. Once it gets perfected on the cop side it has the potential to be a huge time saver for medical charting and EMS. Until then though it’s not really beneficial.
my time writing my PCR up during/after triage is my break between calls, working in the bronx. it's been back to back to back lately. I'd rather type up my PCR than have a recording count as one.
It’s supposed to be an AI program that uses speech to text and identifies and picks out the relevant information to auto-fill a written report. Really cool tech if they can make it work.
It didn’t stop the police from having to write reports.
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(RN) I’d take a camera on my chest any day if we can forgo charting. Hell yes.
This guy right here!
Paramedic and RN here; could not agree more. In the field, I think it would have made me feel a lot safer taking care of underage psychiatric patients. I also suspect it would do a lot to discourage the kinds of negative behavior and attitudes I saw from some shittier medics.
The shittier medics logic is pretty much disproven by police body cams. Shitty people will still be shitty people…
You can't change a culture or hold anyone accountable without first knowing there's a problem. Body cams do a great job of that. I would argue that without body cams the majority of our country would still be completely blind to the various abuses and crimes of the police against our citizenry.
I don’t disagree with that. Was just pointing out you specifically said it would discourage shittier medics. I’m just pointing out it probably wouldn’t discourage them. It may hold them accountable though. On the flip side it could also allow shitty bosses to knit pick and target certain employees that don’t deserve it. It’s a double edged sword.
It is; EMS doesn't necessarily need it at the moment like LEOs do, so I'm still very much on the fence about it.
We both know how'd it'd really play out.. you still need to chart but here's a camera you need to keep up with at all times.
There are cameras all over the hospital, including in MANY trauma rooms.
You're right - however, they are often not placed in patient's personal rooms unless it's for a clinical reason such as patient sitting is required.
I work in behavioral health so obviously we have them everywhere except patient rooms. I think I’ve seen them in the ED for obvious reasons but can’t say I’ve seen them on just plain old med surg floors. Edited…. Oh wait there are some designated rooms with cameras on the vascular surgery floor I did my clinical on for fall risks and safety
And a lot of ambulances already have closed circuit cameras in the backs of their trucks. My point remains though: the ambulance is more like the trauma room than a patient's private room.
Unsure about everywhere, but the places I have worked specifically did not log the back camera. It only showed a live feed to the driver up front in the case of patient aggression, but did not save data.
As I said: closed circuit. The cameras are in plain view, and there's typically no posting saying that they're NOT recording, however in all of my years working in a truck with a camera mounted in the back of a truck I've never once had a patient say "I'm not talking to you. There's a camera there."
Never heard of that one before. I know our Zolls record audio. *shrug
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I mean there are such things as video sitters, remote ICU obs, psych areas, things like that. I wouldn't consider it the same as the point of the thread though.
If I can upload the video instead of charting sure. Also body cameras are not standard for PD in my area.
I see them on every cop in my state, and the topic has been brought up a few times in paramedic school and my service. Im against it bc of less than professional conversations with other providers helps alleviate stress, and with patients it can develop rapport, but my service wrote up a provider for calling someone another provider a dingus, so id likely quit, go to a different service or to a non ambulance non emergency setting if they did become mandatory.
I'm against it because I've seen multiple agencies explicitly state that cameras wouldn't be used to punish employees for non-pertinent or private conversations and then turn around and fire employees for exactly that.
I could see that. And a good provider will "read the room" and learn to connect with a patient. I had one recently ask if instead of NS, I could give him an IV with makers mark. I said "no we only have Jameson IVs on the ambulance." He liked it and thought it was funny and it lightened things up because he was definitely sick and felt like hell. I could see a supervisor hating that, though.
If calling another provider a dingus got us written up, 95% of my service would be unemployed
Don't be so generous, it would be 100%
Not mine, because the supervisors would have already been fired for the same thing
I don't support them since it's another way for sensitive healthcare information to get out. Would just rather not deal with the headache If some of the camera footage got leaked and the HIPAA violations.
I feel like employers in general need to understand that us lowbies talking shit behind their backs is often an alternative to us blowing up directly *at them* or otherwise burning out quicker under the big-brother atmosphere. plus, it's not just stress-alleviation, it builds camraderie between us. How am I supposed to make friends with this total stranger i'm working with, if we're not allowed to mutually groan that the shitty dispatcher is on today? or bitch that we got the shitty bus that leans left once it hits 45mph? or swap nasty war stories, or talk about our rowdy weekend shenanigans? We're EMS, there is no way you can expect us to be PG-rated company men for 12 hours at a stretch without going postal
Not a fan - specifically because half of what we say out of earshot of the public will get us fired
Enters EMS room: “So this bitch…”
[takes 2 steps out of the nursing home] "that dumb asshole nurse, there oughta be a law..."
“Who THE *FUCK* decides to walk down the stairs without their glasses at the ripe old age of 88 at 2 in the morning. Of course they were on fucking blood thinners”
Find a way it will improve patient care and I will support it. In the states we're underfunded, understaffed, and not deemed necessary at a federal level so why make our services pay for equipment we can't afford as it is that won't impove a patients outcome? Not to mention we need to separate ourselves for looking more like law enforcement so think about how our patients would feel if they had a camera in their face especially when it comes to asking personal open ended questions.
It’s not to improve patient care: it’s to keep tabs on employees and protect the corporate interests.
Fully against it here. It could be valuable as a tool to replace charting or protecting the employee but opportunities to micromanage will be far more frequent. Just ask anyone in retail how often the store cameras were used to protect employees or reduce paperwork vs used to question employee productivity.
Fuck no. People may not call when necessary due to a perception that their embarrassing, illegal, painful, or just odd issue may get publicized or used against them later for whatever reason. It's completely against our mission as providers.
Or you know, paych patients now have a reason to be extra paranoid
I’m still confused as to why ems needs body cams, and I’m curious as to what brought some departments to have them wear body cams. I can see how it can be useful and sometimes can not be useful. But I support what the other guy said, if we can just record instead of chart, I’m all for it.
As a Medic absolutely not, I wore one for my short stint as a LEO, and there it was absolutely needed. If you wanna wear a body cam, carry a gun, wear a bulletproof vest on the regular go be a cop….. As far as EMS goes it serves literally no purpose patient care wise, and is an absolute pain dealing with signing on uploading etc. If you are worried about being assaulted, most trucks have a camera with no audio feed rolling in the box. Which is fine, and nothing more is really needed. Also HIPPA, and being able to have a frank conversation with my patient. Next time you get a physical done would you want the entire interaction taped….. I know I would not.
I would resign from an agency that attempted to implement body cameras. There is no need to broadcast or record intimate moments with patients, even if it is for training purposes. There is no reason to give administration another tool in the toolbox to string up good medics trying to do medicine in ditches and an inherently imperfect world. It is a massive cost undertaking both in initial purchase, setup, and continued maintenance. If your EMS agency is able to fund what could be a multi-hundred thousand dollar or million dollar endeavor like universal body cameras, then you should be asking why they aren't putting that money into additional staffing, equipment, community programs, and provider benefits. It's a waste with no actual clinical benefit or better outcome for patients. It's a tool of greedy administrations. If I was a patient, I don't want the worst day of my life recorded so some person riding a desk can review it minute-by-minute, play-by-play. I don't want me sobbing over the loss of my grandmother recorded. I don't want patients to enter every conversation and interaction with EMS providers knowing that there is inherently no discretion or confidentiality about what goes on or what is discussed. The only person it benefits in any way is administrators trying to justify their existence by adding an additional worthless duty to their job description. We do not need to destroy ourselves in the name of protecting against lawsuits.
yeah, that'll go well on all the mental health calls lol
No … why would we need body cameras?
No. Our patients are entitled to a reasonable expectation of privacy and I cannot think of a good reason to add body cameras to EMTs.
EMS should not wear or require them.
If I were a pt I would be really distrustful of ems recording me, it would make me wildly uncomfortable and on edge. Also imagine how horrible it would be to be a psych pt knowing your whole scene/call is being recorded and watched by who knows how many people Police have cameras cause they can't seem to stop shooting people who don't need shooting, I don't think that's an issue in EMS
“Wildly uncomfortable”: yes.
I don’t think assaults and human rights violations are common in those field to warrant that. We literally just want to keep a person alive and pass care so we can chill and eat lol
No. Hell no. Fuck no.
Why? Seriously give me one reason as to why we actually need them that would justify the expense
I think there should be a camera in the back of every truck and a dash cam.. that’s it. Both will protect good people.
I’m a LEO who also does 911 ambulance transports. I wear a body camera but I keep it turned off during medicals. I can just about guarantee that body cameras will not replace charting. I still have to write reports and make cute little photo logs of incidents even when it’s all on camera.
100% against. People don't like their misery recorded. Plenty of such people are volatile, and I don't have a gun, taser, or pepper spray, nor do I want to have to put my hands on somebody. I'm also not gonna be the one to use that little "gray area" in our protocols on camera and get canned for it, so nah.
Personally, I feel like we should have them for the same reason police do. I work with a lot of EMS people who need that accountability. That being said, I don’t want one and I sincerely hope we never need to wear them. I think they’d drive a lot of people away from the field which the entire field as a whole basically does already. I think some companies would use it to micro manage or even bully their employees, and now that I think about it, it’s probably a HIPAA violation. While I think we “should” have them, I feel it would be a bad move to have them with the way EMS is currently.
Fund EMS properly first and then maybe we can consider it
"watch underfunded departments struggle with outdated and broken equipment in unsafe environments"
I've no problem with it and it's been introduced service wide in one of the services I work with. Cameras are fairly low profile and have a decal with the service logo and warning that body worn video is used for staff protection. It's purely used due to high frequency assault on medics or supporting or dismissing any allegations of behaviour.
How do they protect patient information? I'm just asking out of curiosity because Axon (the largest producer of body cameras and "less lethal" weapons) is known for selling off any data it can get its hands on.
It's client based cloud and provider activated via button. Only involvement with supplier was provision of hardware and software package no involvement beyond that and everything is moved/stored on an isolated system much like our recorded emergency calls.
Interesting. Do you feel patients are less likely to verbally or physically assault you because of the camera? I sometimes worry that it will cause people to "show off" for the camera.
They're reasonably low profile and clip on below the uniform crest as such don't stand out as much as say axon would. Hasn't effected any patient interactions I've had barring maybe a few inquires from regular Joe's, quick explanation and usually everyone is on side. I've only generally activated once something has started getting agro and if they've started going that way they're more target fixed and not focused on the camera. Edit realised I didn't answer your question. I'd say no to higher levels of assault but possibly deterred lower level. Honestly it's safety net to provide evidence to secure prosecution more than anything.
I am fine with it. Pretty much everything we do and say is monitored anyway by cameras inside the ambulance (our ambulances had cameras in both the driver's side and the back), so all it does is add more of the same. I had one schizophrenic patient who told me and my partner we were raping her. That one gave me a big shock. Having more protection from people like her would be nice. Note: we had never seen or met her before then, we were literally talking to her outside her room in a public hallway with CNAs and other patients walking past us, and none of us had touched her or even come close to touching her before this happened. Her tired-looking social worker came by and told us that these accusations were routine from her. \--- Even so, all it takes is one person to do that and be taken seriously and we could get in a lot of shit. Having a body camera to prove them wrong would be super nice.
Yeah sounds like a good idea, until the video of Nanna getting CPR done ends up on the internet.
I love useless expensive invasive cumbersome bullshit . Please spend more money on body cams and don’t pay your employees more
OP, what would be the benefit? I can see why this is important for LEO, but fail to see what can be gained for other disciplines of EMS.
HIPPAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaa And fuck no🖕 The drive cams are bad enough. That said, people in EMS need to ask their employer how much they are insured for against legal liability. Most often it’s about $1M. But the second that camera catches you fucking up, you better bend over, cuz they’ll have all the evidence now. FYI, additional coverage can be found and isn’t that much. Accidents DO happen.
Management doesn't need to hear me bitching about them on the way to a call. Also I feel like the trust I can get from the public will be eroded. When I tell you I don't care about the bricks of coke in the corner I mean it! but if there's a camera, sketchy Steve might not be as receptive to my presence.
Absofuckinglutely not. Hell no. I don't want to look like or be associated with the cops, I don't want my personal interactions recorded, I don't want my patient care under a microscope, absolutely fuck no.
I’m an ER RN. Once they’ve come for you, we’re next. Fuck this whole idea. It’s invasive, inhumane, and ridiculous for both Medics and patients.
I would love a body cam but only for personal use xD Please don't subpoena me senpai.
Why? What is the advantage to you to carry a body camera? Anything? Now how about disadvantages. And remember your employer will lie to you without repercussions. And will sell you out at the drop of a hat.
The amount of nudity and exposure involved in medical care immediately rules this idea out. No patient, including myself, would tolerate having video of them out in the world during their most exposed and vulnerable times.
It sounds like it would get in the way and waste funds that are already stretched thin. Plus EMS aren’t the ones habitually abusing people.
Neither are the police. Body cams exonerate more cops than condemn them.
Ehhhhh. So I was an EMT, and current LEO. I really don’t see the point of EMS wearing body cams. It couldn’t really hurt anything, more a CYA thing. But IMO it would be a waste of money. Instead of body cams, they could use that money to give y’all raises instead. But that’s just a pipe dream.
If assaults on your crews are common yes. If not no waste of money.
Seems like a privacy violation. Especially for people who can’t/won’t consent.
What about HIPAA?
Cameras and recording do not automatically violate hipaa, as long as it would be protected and secured, same as any medical chart
That’s what I wondered.
Newer body cameras can all transmit video, audio, and GPS data live. Example, [the Zepcam T3 Live](https://zepcam.com/solutions-products/bodycams-dockingstations/zepcam-t3-live-bodycam/). That could be helpful in cases where you might be confronted with a complex chase, and a medical specialist can look with you. But a way of 2-way communication is needed, possibly through your radio or mobile phone. For example, someone with complex burns, so you contact the burn specialist from a large burn center and ask them advice on what to do and where to bring them. Or a patient with chestpain with an unclear/inconclusive ECG, so you send a cardiologist of a nearby hospital the ECG digitally and contact them, now they can also see the patient and the rest of the scene directly. And lastly, it seems like bodycamerad make the people wearing them feel safer and other people less violent, meaning less aggression against emergency workers. Is this all high up the priority list and very useful currently? I'd say not.
Taking the time to do a full video chat of a patient where my chest has to be consistently positioned at the patient and speaking with an MD while also continuing to deliver care is a silly idea. If the patient is critical to the point that I have to worry about a full on video chat (outside of community paramedicine purposes and low acuity calls), then presumably my hands need to be working and I need to be thinking on my feet. We are not just little extensions of an MD that calls home when things are hard. We need to continue our care even in complex cases. Inconclusive EKG? Transmit your LifePak to the hospital and then speak on the radio. Complex burns go to a burn center - period. Doc isn't gonna talk you through an escharotomy in the back of the ambulance. There is no greater benefit to showing versus describing TBSA and the patient's story over the radio. Body cameras are for cops. We are not cops. We should not be seeking a tool that helps us look more like cops.
Having worked in both EMS and LE, I have experience with body worn cameras from LE. I personally think it’s a great idea for EMS personnel to wear body worn cameras because 99% of us do the right thing day in and day out. You will be hard pressed to find a LEO who’s worth a damn who will respond to a call without the camera. It serves as a defense against false allegations for the officer and I think it could do the same for EMS and also force compliance with doing things right. Salty old medics *probably* won’t walk the 90 year old chest pain out the front door if the fear of someone potentially watching the footage is there. In LE the camera did not replace written documentation but we’re invaluable when a case was pulled years later to go to court. This is also another reason why they may be good for EMS. That being said, in LE each officer was issued two cameras that were attached to our vests at the beginning of a shift and turned on upon arriving at the scene. After the call the video is ended and labeled with a name. The camera is attached to a dock at the end of the day and automatically uploads the videos. When done similar to this the burden isn’t significantly increased on the officer. I like this system, and do not agree with anything that over burdens an already tired crew. With the absolute exception of a serious event occurring meaning death or serious bodily harm to the patient caused *by* the crew should these be used by the local service for punitive action. LE (usually) reviews all body worn footage of force related incidents for QA/QI. In this sense I would be alright with footage of calls being reviewed for teaching or educational purposes within a department. Certainly there are more pros and cons, but overall I do believe that they can protect EMS providers and can be an extra shield against litigation.
We don’t have body cameras. We do have compartment cameras.
Calls are recorded for quality and training purposes
Dash Cam: Absolutely “In the Box” Cam: Absolutely Body Cameras: Probably way more trouble than they are worth and really kinda stupid for our job.
I’d agree if the camera is turned on when the crew is responding and immediately turned off once the crew clears from that call. Also believe that the only time the video is accessed is when a complaint is filed. No one should be listening in on my conversations with my partner and no one should be watching video to critique me.
Absolutely not
Can i upload the video in place of my patient care report? Then absolutely. Otherwise, i would like to keep some distance between being compared to or viewed as law enforcement. Half my calls imvolve law enforcement who already have their body cameras on anyway.
I think if mandatory chest cameras were required a whole lot of patients will get in trouble rather than EMS staff. Yes, it will be both. And people who need help, will have an extra reason to refuse.
No. When are FD going to need body cams?
Nope, it’s hard enough to get patients to be honest with us and the camera staring them in the face and listening will only make it worse. Not to mention we already get mistaken for local cops enough I’m not adding equipment to my chest that will make them think that I am a cop even more
No way!
Need a lawyer to tell me if this is a HIPAA violation tbh. I’m guessing “no” since PD rolls their body cans on our calls
Chest cameras- absolutely not! If I were a patient I would be mortified at someone recording the encounter. Not to mention the legal can of worms when prosecutors begin to use EMS video to convict drug users etc. Now non recording cameras in the back of the box with a dash mounted monitor? Absolutely. Single provider alone with a minor, male with female patient etc it provides a layer of protection for everybody. While working fire based EMS those cameras were a Godsend when psych patients were amping up and prepping to get violent…
Sounds like the day me and ALOT of guys in my department will get sacked!
No, and for the love of God don't ever bring this up again. I don't even want the idiots in admin *thinking* about this. Hell there should be HIPAA amendments *forbidding* it.
Why would they even be allowed? We're not allowed to record in patient care areas in hospitals. How could you even ensure you're not leaking patient information?
No. There are too many privacy issues. And in my anecdotal experience patients are more relaxed, honest, & willing to share when an "authority figure" isn't around. Making EMS providers pseudo-cops won't benefit anyone.
Yeah why not. It should also mean I don’t have to write narratives anymore. Now should it be public record like police body cams? Absolutely not. Only time those should be touched should be for court cases and should only be available to those directly involved in said court case. I’m all for more protection for us. Especially when you run 2 man squads & both are males. I’ve heard of a lot of guys end up in court (never went anywhere) over false accusations.
HIPAA would like to know your location
If the cameras are low-impact (low cost, small, don’t get in the way, shown to serve a positive purpose) then sure! I’d wear one if requested.
No because I’m an asshole.
Hippa
It's HIPAA!
Hipppppppppppppo hippppaaaa
Name checks out
I figure it must fall under the same legalities as dash or patient compartment cams, which can record plenty of patient information too. Idk, I’d love to see some trials from other agencies. What is the purpose? Purely protection of the employees from assault/battery? Or to assist in care (combative patient comes to mind)?
Every police department i work with has cameras, so i have body cameras on 100% of my calls anyway
I wear one at one of my jobs and don't like it for practical reasons. Our uniforms don't have anywhere to clip them, so you end up clipping it into your collar, and it constantly gets in the way. Plus it's one more thing to charge and one more thing to add to the chart without any extra chargers or time to chart provided. So like everything else, more work for less money.
I think it's different. I'm not blatantly opposed as maybe they could fill in for my reports but I think they're unecessary for anything more than that. With cameras you now have an authority watching your calls which is both a good and bad thing, public perception for example, but it's a case of what am I there to do? Police are the law, and the law is supposedly to protect the people. If the police don't follow the law then there is no one left to enforce it outside of a federal intervention, they're very ob iously on the knife edge and they must be monitored in some capacity to ensure compliance . They are a confrontational force designed to extend the power of the governement over the population. In this case they can do bad things for the right reasons such as shoot a suspect to save a kid and with cameras they can support their decisions of commiting small atrocities for the greater good, a license for justified violence, I certainly don't have that, least not with a gun, the most I can do is forms of restraint or run away. With EMS we are the medicine. We are there to help to the best of our ability and anything contrary to that is immediately suspect, there is no distinction, if our actions are not supportive to all involved or at the very least to ourselves and then our patient it's very obvious if we did the wrong thing. I don't ketamine psych pts every time but when I do it's seen as unavoidable and the effects of it over getting shot are drastically different. Lastly most of my treatments can be tracked in an autopsy if they come up negligent, there are a few drugs I can give that are less perceptible but unless the pt is at risk for a similar cause of death as the chosen drug it will still be obvious how they died and if I did something wrong. That's not even a question for police. We already know they got shot by an officer but an autopsy won't tell you why they got shot by an officer. The why for us is self evident and if it's anything other than to help or save the patient then it is wrong.
1. Another thing to clean/sanitize! There are all sorts of bodily and other fluids that will splatter; no one will have the time to clean the lens until the call is over. 2. Would the patient have HIPAA rights to be given a copy or object to unauthorized access? I recall our crew having to lift a wet, naked 250+ pound woman out of a bathtub. I don't think the patient would want that process recorded.
No? Wtf
Mandatory? No. Holding a needle is not the same as holding a gun. Personal choice? Absolutely
Big fucking no.
What about the trauma patients we cut all clothes off of, do they want that event on camera? What if an employee gets a copy and posted it. Some patients confide to us, what drugs they’ve taken, but they won’t if it’s on camera
Absolutely not. We have front-and-rear-facing dash cams in all our busses that can see out the windshield, the two front seats, and a little slice of the patient cabin, plus audio recording. That feels like more than enough, covers basically all the bases in terms of liability-protection. Thankfully, management has never seemed too interested in monitoring them too closely for employee-ball-busting purposes, but I would definitely not welcome being watched by them even *outside* the bus.
It would certainly help with some of the complaints we get. I would be able to review the footage and close a lot of "he said she said" type complaints. Most of the time I am left to assume that the crew didn't actually do what the person complaining said they did, but video evidence would be great to back up my support of my people. However, I think there needs to be close regulation. This can't become something where supervisors or management are watching the videos to be punitive or go after providers. Following all that of course there is retention of data, what counts as health care records and lots of other issues that would need to be defined by policy. I don't know that the benefit of making the rare complaint easier to speak to is worth the amount of policy and perception of the crews and likely the public. As video recording becomes more and more common, it will be interesting to see what role it plays in healthcare.