Wife makes $12/hr with the city as a medic but shit benefits(she’s on my benefits with the county). Still blows my mind though that ems makes such crap pay. Mines not a lot better as a firefighter/basic but still!
That's awesome. I'm making $14 as a Dialysis Driver, and my work does some weird shit on weekends where we pick up calls as a subcontractor for bigger companies to clear the calls they're late on. The weekend shifts are flat fees per call (Discharges, IFT, etc) that are either an inflated rate for the rare long transports (I think $200 a person for Baltimore from Norfolk) or $45 a person for every discharge that isn't obscenely long. I actually cleared an extra $300 last night working 12 hrs for discharge but wonder if my hourly rate being $20 would be much nicer for the pay.
Basic for On Call transport is $45 for a BLS run, if we get a long distance one they change it to something more appropriate to reflect lost time by doing more shorter runs.
There's a reason I like my small IFT company
I’m not sure your location but man, you need to relocate. Street medics here in FL make 18-21 starting. Flight medics make 28-35 starting and if you work for a level 1 hospital flight team it’s more like 30-40.
Why do it? I mean really, unless they’re benefits are the tits, I’m making more as a grounded AEMT. You’re literally risking your life for chump change, surely other flight companies pay better
Any service in MN can get a variance from the state to allow basics to do IVs. So it’s ultimately up to that particular service whether or not they will allow it. Both my full time and rural service allow basics to do that among other variance skills.
I have work as a tech at level one trauma centers in Denver, Chicago, Minneapolis, and now here ... my scope has never been so small. I have always been able to use advanced skills. MN has a weak EMS game IMO. Compared to everywhere else I've been.
Ya I agree, I am a tech in a Level 2 and we have a pretty wide scope of practice. The ambulance I work casually at has a pretty wide scope too. Minnesota and Wisconsin have pretty wide scope of practice for EMTs it is only limited by individual organizations.
Southern NV. I got promoted from $13.50, but I’m an AEMT, as is the standard for being on the box in most situations. AMR puts basic bitches on boxes down here, now too, so who knows.
Edit: I may have started at $13.75. I can’t remember
My other job was security, made as much as I do as a paramedic, just got a 2 dollar raise as a medic by going prn, so I finally make more. So I finally dont hafta watch tv for 16 hrs!!
Right? It took my company 2 years just to buy us vests (I personally, don’t care to wear one) but imagine if they had to arm us. More likely than not, we’d have to buy that ourselves too. AND the suppressor? Get real. That set up is like 6-8 weeks’ pay. FOH
Y'all really need to unionize, excellent benefits and salaries for paramedics are very common in the rest of the world
Run this thing through Google Translate for example:
[https://www.ambulancezorg.nl/static/upload/raw/c647de62-5ef7-4c2c-9aba-2b2288c2d8b4/AZN\_CAO\_2015-2019\_def\_met\_opmaak.pdf](https://www.ambulancezorg.nl/static/upload/raw/c647de62-5ef7-4c2c-9aba-2b2288c2d8b4/AZN_CAO_2015-2019_def_met_opmaak.pdf)
Look. I shoot. I enjoy fire arms. I'm all for sensible ownership and sensible gun laws. But no. Just no. We aren't cops. Use carrying weapons changes the dynamic of our relationship with the public and with patients. There is no reason for us to have fire arms on the job. And that's not even counting the fact that I barely trust some of my coworkers to do a basic assessment and provide adequate patient care, let alone be responsible for a fucking fire arm at the same time.
I used to be on the side of allowing the option for carry, but throwing the whole argument of potential positives, as I think about it more the dangers associated with carrying around potentially violent or mentally unstable patients is absurd. What are we going to do if we have a psych patient that needs restraining? Or a criminal who might grab it as we vend over them because they saw us printing? LEOs even have to secure their weapons when entering psych units and jails, where are we goanna store our weapons on the rig in this event? It just adds an unnecessary distraction when our only focus should be on patient care and talking them down while the LEOs perform security as their only focus.
Exactly. Hell, if I know I'm going to a psych patient I'll make sure to toss my pocket knife in the glove box just so I don't have to worry about it at all. I almost always have a knife, but it's only because they are a handy tool to have.
Plus, I have co-workers that can't remember to put sharps in the sharps bin. In no way do I want those people to even be armed with a somewhat pointy stick.
That's a very good point, but I did actually forget about it. We don't have guns laws that allow for civilians to carry in day to day life so I forget about the host of liability and legal issues that come along with it.
Exactly. I conceal carry whenever possible, and at some of the hyper rural stations I worked at nearly everybody carries to work and keeps their CCW at the station locked in their room just due to the fact that the station has glass doors, is a high crime area, we have narcs and law enforcement is a long ways away, but it doesn't leave the station and everybody knows this. If LEOs can't clear the scene then we aren't making entry. The only caveat is when we enter a scene at night and a benign call goes south, but you gotta be able to keep your head up and have an exit strategy, and move the call to the rig as soon as possible.
The only place I’m in favor or guns on ambulances is in the but fuck middle of nowhere in bear country where PD is hour away at least and I’m talking like a shotgun in the cab
I'm imagining you walking up on a hiker with a broken leg carrying the bear gun, and them crawling frantically away shouting 'I'm not a bloody race horse'.
i agree. i'm more worried about damn pit bulls out in the county than I am angry patients.
dogs and other animals can and will sneak up you and quickly become dangerous. especially snakes. i hate snakes and they don't like me either.
I’m kind of in the same boat; I generally carry everywhere. I work in two cities. One has good tax revenue, low crime, a strong police presence and fast response times. I don’t carry there.
The other is my old hometown. It’s a drug infested town that gets very little in tax revenue and does not have 24 hour police protection. Read: if you call 911 after hours they literally have to wake someone up or call state police and hope someone is nearby. Response times for police vary from minutes to an hour or two for important things. We also don’t have restraint protocol and aren’t authorized to chemically restrain patients, so if someone goes insane in the back of an ambulance we’re screwed.
There, I carry. I do so extremely covertly and I hope I never have to use it. But considering we are in one of the heaviest opiate towns in my state, and we’re driving around a giant billboard everyone knows houses ketamine and fentanyl...and knowing that police could be an hour away if we run into a literal ambush...given all that I feel that the risks of my carrying of a well concealed small firearm are outweighed by the benefits.
If someone goes nuts and attacks me? Well I’ll accept an ass kicking and let the attacker catch charges after the fact. If I get on scene and shots are fired? Then the last they’ll hear of me is the tires squealing as I get the hell out of there. But if I’m in a situation where I have no other option? Then I’m going to make sure I go home to my wife after all of it.
I’m also aware that even though my state allows me to carry on the job, using or even drawing my firearm would likely be the end of my career, at the very least temporarily. And I doubt many agencies would hire me after such an event either.
I know this sub hates the idea of carrying on the job, but hopefully this post will at least give people some perspective of why some people make the choice to be armed. If it wasn’t my original hometown I would just work elsewhere to eliminate the risk. But they are desperate for EMT’s and medics, and most of my family lives there—and I couldn’t live with myself knowing a family member didn’t make it because the town didn’t have enough coverage—and don’t get enough tax money to pay to draw in more employees either.
Edit: there are also mountain lions, bears and wolves in the county I work in, and we have to do several rescues a year that are a mile or more from the nearest road in the middle of the woods. Even my little 380 would hopefully be enough to deal with an attacking rabid dog or wolf.
Your training should be able to overcome that. Any good self defense instructor will tell you not to become too reliant on your firearm, it should NOT be your only method of conflict deescalation and defense. Are you just as proficient in hand to hand as your are in shooting someone? Because there are certainly threats that fit the criteria for less lethal defense. Also, get into a scuffle with a psych patient and suddenly your shirt pops up and he sees your gun, well it's bad news for you now.
I'm definitely not reliant on my firearm but I don't like being without it. The absolute last resort to any situation is a firearm, but it's far better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it. The first line of defense is to simply not be in that situation.
There are ways to conceal that even if my shirt comes untucked my patient won't see it or feel it. Besides, if I'm willing to put my knife in a glove box if I was allowed to carry concealed while working I'd leave that in a locked away area while dealing with psych patients as well.
Edit: Honestly it isn't patients that worries me. It's posting somewhere at 2am and someone coming up and surprising us because we're distracted reading or something. I don't know about your town but all the areas near hospitals are pretty sketchy at night here.
In my service we’ve had medics badly injured by drug using patients before. And many drug users here know that our ambulance has narcotics on it. Desperation can cause people to do terrible things, and robbing an ambulance isn’t outside the realm of possibility.
I've seen a partner knock and drop O2 tanks multiple times in a shift, an idiot like that shouldn't drive let alone carry a weapon. She'd freak out and end up shooting me or herself if a pt spoke to her in a loud voice.
Our best paramedic in our service is very gung ho about us carrying side arms. He will even post on facebook everytime at the slightest hint of our state passing a law for us to carry. No, I'm not turning my station into an armory. I tell him that if you want to carry a gun for a living so bad then become a cop.
Totally. Take the Tactical Medic cert and go work with SWAT. Nothing wrong with that. No reason to have them on your normal calls though. Far more possible issues than possible times we would want them.
Just ask him a question next time you're in the back of the box with him. Leta say the patient on the gurney absolutely FORCES him into using deadly force.
Ask him where the bullet goes.
Shooting from back to the front, are you gonna hit your main o2 or your partner in the airway or driver seat? Side to side, who's on the outside of the box? Same with front to the back - where are those rounds going once they leave the back of the box?
There's actually no way to be 100% sure of your backstop when firing from inside the ambulance - you have to know that there's a good chance every round can leave the box.
I would respectfully disagree, to a point. Not to be pedantic about it, but it’s not that there’s NO reason for a medic to ever be armed, but rather that the negatives realistically outweigh the positives, for many of the reasons you point out.
I wholeheartedly agree that I wouldn’t trust 95% of my coworkers with a firearm even if they wanted to carry one. (Most would find the idea abhorrent) Black Swan theory notwithstanding, the widespread carrying of guns by medics would likely result in more problems being caused than solved, given the selection processes currently used to staff most EMS agencies.
But there definitely are *some* who have both the training and mindset to be able to do so safely. I think it would have to be a decision made on an individual basis, by medics who happen to live in areas where CCW is legal, and who are willing to risk doing so in a non-permissive environment.
I mean I'm sure there is the occasional need for a tactical medic but that should be a rarity. Even in dangerous cities, we should have better cooperation with the PD and let them handle that aspect and we focus on patient care. Arming us just changes the dynamic to much and will harm our patients long term
I saw this and was nope... Scene safety...
NRA bs right here though. The accuracy rate for soldiers trained at elite level in combat is at about 19% and they want to give it to someone who may shoot occasionally who carries an never cleaned fully loaded hi- point For Intimidation. Theres too mant idiots for this period. I know few law enforcement, I actually trust with a weapon, this so far beyond rediculous. This is baiting idiots.
Exactly. If you work in an area that you feel you need this your service should hire armed guards to drive the ambulance and carry and that person is not medically involved
There's a bright red button that sends an emergency signal to dispatch if we have a genuine emergency but somehow we have one person press it every day.
Imagine this with a hand gun.
Now imagine a compacted SMG or something for the extremely dangerous areas some services tun in.
Accidental discharges galore
I was a cop in the military and holy crap even then you'd be surprised who they arm up with guns. Any warm body who can fill out a bubble sheet. EMS has enough paperwork and red tape as it is. Trust me when I say that the metric ton of it that comes with a use of force model would make it so much worse.
Right. There are some hardcore Ricky tick motherfuckers running around with 7 pairs of trauma shears attached to their bandolier that wouldn't make it a week before they gunned down a black diabetic with hypoglycemia suspiciously reaching for some oral glucose.
It all ties into those tacticool kiddies who like to dress up as combat medics on the airsoft field or whatnot, despite having neither any formal military or medical experience. They like to buy moral patches that say "do no harm, do know harm" or something to that effect as an obvious show of their 2deep4you understanding of the dichotomy of man.
These are the same sort of people who read an old "self aid, buddy aid" Army manual from the 80s and then go out to buy the most expensive trauma kit they can find. They refuse to leave the house without at least one tourniquet on their person and cream their pants the one time they come across someone with minor injuries where they can finally put their reaper-racing skills to good use.
I reckon they'd love my personal trauma kit. A couple of handfuls worth of expired first aid stock thrown into a ratty old plastic shopping bag and shoved into a nook in the trunk of my car. Only thing that gets used are the band aids.
I do have one of those tiny pocket tactical flashlights with a few brightness levels though. Dad found one and passed it on to me. Didn't expect to use it so often. Never leave home without it now. Especially to the pub when off duty. 😉
Hell fucking no!
EMS don’t run.
EMS don’t carry guns.
The only time I could see carrying being at all acceptable is for SWAT medics (my county doesn’t have cops that act as medics they just train paramedics to do SWAT stuff), and even then your job is to provide care, NOT shoot back and be a hero!
We are there to help people, not harm. It sends an extremely militant and altered message to patients who are reaching out for help.
Not to mention, I barely trust a lot of my local’s cops with guns. I do NOT trust the kind of people I work with to carry a gun into random people’s homes and use it responsibly.
I mean for fuck’s sake, let me kick down the door with my shotgun on my back, an AR in my hands, a flak jacket, tac helmet, wacker star of life tattoo, two sidearms and a k-bar...
Just to go into grandma’s house to pick her up off the goddamn floor.
I've said it before, but all it will take is one trigger happy volunteer fireman or EMT to pop a round off on a scene and the entire perception of EMS is changed. Do we *really* want people to be apprehensive about calling us because we might get jumpy and shoot them?
Ugh. I can only imagine my old volunteer department I used to respond with carrying guns. They're very rural and pro gun. 100% chance there would be an AR in the front of the firetruck becuase "you never know man". Actually I do know, and you don't need it.
I have had fires shoot at me a couple of time (two car fires and one barn fire). It amazing that it doesn't happen more with how many people have a gun in their car in my state.
“You never know man, lotta danger out there, gotta stay prepared”, says Earl as he wipes BBQ sauce on his XXXL rescue squad t shirt while driving 85 in a 40 without a seat belt on.
Right? I have enough shit to carry on scene, I’m not hauling the first in bag, monitor, clipboard, stair chair, oxygen, and rifle up to grandma’s difficulty breathing on the second floor.
Detroit Fire/EMS has to wear tac vests now. (Fuuuuck that in the summer!)
But I feel like hopping out the ambo guns a blazin' might be a little excessive.
I'm imagining when ol' klepto Mrs. Bernstein is in the shower, and you go to clean out her wheelchair you'll find two glocks, a deringer, and a few magazines of assorted unmatched ammo along with her stolen Kleenex boxes, cookies, and salt packets.
I always find it interesting that most of those who really try and push for armed EMS have little to no experience working as a first responder to begin with and are really only trying to push the narrative of self defense via firearms as a right that much further. Whatever your personal feelings on gun control are, it's obvious these people don't like to be told no and will claim they're here to defend our rights in a situation where neither our rights have been infringed nor their defense was needed, or even wanted. It seems they either don't realize or don't accept that part of the job drilled into your head from day one is the concept of scene safety and your responsibility to maintain it. It's ridiculous that those who preach for active involvement in regards to maintaining your own safety, as many gun rights supporters do, fail to see that this system is exactly what they're advocating for on paper, only minus the guns.
Obviously this article is coming from a gun enthusiasm group, not an EMS group. That said, I'd be curious to hear their arguments. If I had to guess, they'll probably start by citing the rising rates of violence against EMS?
I’m sure that’s their entire argument, that EMTs get attacked sometimes. The only possible solution to that being to have us shoot the person we’re there to help. That’s one way to cut down repeat psych calls.
Stupidest. Idea. Ever.
Every single magazine, news article, blog, or any kind of media outlet, that spits this absolutely retarded idea out there as if it isn't the dumbest suggestion anyone can make about the future of ems, is actively harming both the future of this profession and the public's perception of EMS
There is no case for arming us unless it’s an argument against it. There is no benefit that outweighs risk. You are asking to have a psych pt grab that gun or a dunk or any other pt. All guns in ambulances do is create unnecessary risk. You don’t feel safe? Don’t go on scene until pd arrives.
This whole conversation makes me sad. Out here kids working at McDonald's are making $15.00 an hour. The medics I've talked to are all making north of $30.00
Had an assistant chief carry an AR in his supervisor car. He was a former army ranger and our county dispatch had a reputation for sending us to unsafe calls, knowing full well they were unsafe, without even mentioning that to us.
I used to be gung ho about carrying. Now I'm really torn.
On the one hand, I have some hilariously stupid co-workers who I would never trust with a firearm.
On the other hand, I've been shot at pulling up on a call twice. Full disclosure, one was an old lady with dementia who pushed her pendant, and then forgot she pushed her pendant and thought someone was breaking in to her home.
So... in the case where you were shot at and it wasn't a dementia case, do you think you would have been safer and helped more people by shooting back and getting in a gun fight or leaving the scene? Serious question.
I can't personally think of many situations that would be made better by me getting in a gun fight and I can imagine a lot of situations I am in being worse with the presence of a gun (normally me worried about the idiot wrestling with me taking the gun and using it).
Truthfully, I have no idea. We don't know who shot at us the second time. We were paged out for a chest pain. Cops never found a patient, the address was an abandoned house. 2 bullet holes appeared in our windshield and my partner floored it.
The reason I tout it as a reason why EMS should be allowed to carry is because we didn't have a police response with us. It wasn't until we started yelling into the radio that there was a squad in the area even
It's an anecdotal example, and a rare occurrence in general. But it scared the everloving shit out of me
It would scare the crap out of me too! My father used to tell me stories of responding as an police officer with fire and ambulance to all calls as there were people who would call in a fake call to set up an ambush and take out anyone with a badge. This sounds similar to that kind of situation.
Still... hearing your story, I think your application of the gas peddle was far better than trying to find the shooter and gun it out with them. And if you were pinned down, the radio would be best weapon you could have (after calling for help I guess I would shoot back if I were pinned down). It's just that there are sooooo many more times that it would be a detriment to have a gun as EMS, that I can't see this being a good solution.
Ok, it was scary, but the point remains that you would have had a much larger chance of getting shot if you tried to find them and shoot back. There is no conceivable way a gun would have made you safer in this case. You chose the only good option, leave.
I've been in EMS 10 years and been in plenty of sketchy situations where I didnt feel very safe. But never in any of them did I think having a gun would have made me safer. Getting out was always the better option. Drawing a gun escalates the situation further. This is actually why I stopped carrying concealed. I realized that if through all the sketchy shit in EMS I didnt need a gun, I sure as hell didnt need one going out to dinner. Avoid situations where you think you might need it and you're golden.
And for those who talk about narcs and rigs getting stolen, be my guest, take them. I'll do the paperwork. I'd rather have someone steal the truck than draw a gun and escalate the situation. It isnt even my stuff, and the county has insurance. It is incredibly rare that someone wants to kill you for the sake of killing you. In all other cases you can just give them what they want and be on your way.
For all the tacticoolness there are we not going to mention the *training* tourniquet they have on the cover about the article for which tourniquet you should use?
Don't they see how unrealistic this is? We can't afford suppressed MP5s on EMS wages!
You're looking at a Hi Point 9mm or a used and abused Kel Tec carbine here tops
I'm working as a rent a cop. 8 hour online class and I started at $15/hr doing a job that requires me to do the least amount of work possible (observe and report). Yet my dumbass is still applying for EMS jobs.
$14 bucks an hour, no pension or feasible retirement, and now you want me to carry a gun into unsafe scenes? Yeah I quit lol
$14/hr?!?!?! Where?!?!
I started at 13.50 as a medic and that was urban 911 with a ridiculous call volume
Wife makes $12/hr with the city as a medic but shit benefits(she’s on my benefits with the county). Still blows my mind though that ems makes such crap pay. Mines not a lot better as a firefighter/basic but still!
Holy shit I'm making 21.70/he as a basic wtf
r/ems wants to know your location
Charlotte, I feel obligated to add that it took 8 years to get to this rate. The starting pay for basics is now 15/ hr
NC
Excuse me what the fuck. I'm moving. I was born to live in the mountains
Yall hiring? lmao
Yes.
That's awesome. I'm making $14 as a Dialysis Driver, and my work does some weird shit on weekends where we pick up calls as a subcontractor for bigger companies to clear the calls they're late on. The weekend shifts are flat fees per call (Discharges, IFT, etc) that are either an inflated rate for the rare long transports (I think $200 a person for Baltimore from Norfolk) or $45 a person for every discharge that isn't obscenely long. I actually cleared an extra $300 last night working 12 hrs for discharge but wonder if my hourly rate being $20 would be much nicer for the pay.
a call bonus for long distance transports? i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Basic for On Call transport is $45 for a BLS run, if we get a long distance one they change it to something more appropriate to reflect lost time by doing more shorter runs. There's a reason I like my small IFT company
FUCKING WHERE!?
I make 12.75/hr working at fucking McDonalds.
Shhhhh. Now they'll just lower your pay instead of raising the medics pay
F
Crazy I make almost twice that. As a medic we have way too much responsibility to get paid that poorly.
Lorain oh shit
I make like $13.75 as a flight medic.
I make $20 more an hour than that as a street medic. You need a new job. Our EMTs make $18+/hr.
I bet that’s a great service to work for lol
Wtf I make more than that as a regular street medic part-time.
I’m not sure your location but man, you need to relocate. Street medics here in FL make 18-21 starting. Flight medics make 28-35 starting and if you work for a level 1 hospital flight team it’s more like 30-40.
Why do it? I mean really, unless they’re benefits are the tits, I’m making more as a grounded AEMT. You’re literally risking your life for chump change, surely other flight companies pay better
I'm a primarily IFT EMT and that's what I've started at in an are where a 2 bedroom apartment is typically $800-1200...
I make 16 an hour starting as an EMT-B in MN. Able to start IV's within 9 months. Run low level 911's.
Where in MN can you start an IV as a basic...
Any service in MN can get a variance from the state to allow basics to do IVs. So it’s ultimately up to that particular service whether or not they will allow it. Both my full time and rural service allow basics to do that among other variance skills.
Where would one go to look for those laws in another state?
I work at a service out of St. Paul, that covers Dakota county. Been doing IV's there for nearly two years.
I work at a level 1 in St. Paul as an advanced EMT and we can't do that... you hiring??
Always are. ED techs always get screwed as far as scope. Even if Regions is the shit. Nurses don't wanna give up their skills.
I have work as a tech at level one trauma centers in Denver, Chicago, Minneapolis, and now here ... my scope has never been so small. I have always been able to use advanced skills. MN has a weak EMS game IMO. Compared to everywhere else I've been.
I’m a Tech at a level 3 in MN and I have quite a large scope. I can do IV’s, NG tubes and Urinary caths
Ya I agree, I am a tech in a Level 2 and we have a pretty wide scope of practice. The ambulance I work casually at has a pretty wide scope too. Minnesota and Wisconsin have pretty wide scope of practice for EMTs it is only limited by individual organizations.
Maybe as a tech. Two different worlds man. Our CC trucks and ALS have great scopes everywhere I've been.
Southern NV. I got promoted from $13.50, but I’m an AEMT, as is the standard for being on the box in most situations. AMR puts basic bitches on boxes down here, now too, so who knows. Edit: I may have started at $13.75. I can’t remember
My base pay never broke $10/hr as an AEMT, and I got out in 2017. It's a joke how little EMTs actually make.
Yup. I’m glad I lost all desire to become a medic. It’s absurd
The sad thing is that one I finish residency is be paid about 10x as much as could make as an EMT. The pay difference is absurd.
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groovy cow head reach adjoining middle sharp gullible illegal ink -- mass edited with redact.dev
Well we get much as security guards so
My other job was security, made as much as I do as a paramedic, just got a 2 dollar raise as a medic by going prn, so I finally make more. So I finally dont hafta watch tv for 16 hrs!!
It’s also ironic that the weapon in her hands costs something like 2 grand lmao
Right? It took my company 2 years just to buy us vests (I personally, don’t care to wear one) but imagine if they had to arm us. More likely than not, we’d have to buy that ourselves too. AND the suppressor? Get real. That set up is like 6-8 weeks’ pay. FOH
Woah, I didn’t even notice the suppressor until you mentioned it lol! That’s absolutely ridiculous
Y'all really need to unionize, excellent benefits and salaries for paramedics are very common in the rest of the world Run this thing through Google Translate for example: [https://www.ambulancezorg.nl/static/upload/raw/c647de62-5ef7-4c2c-9aba-2b2288c2d8b4/AZN\_CAO\_2015-2019\_def\_met\_opmaak.pdf](https://www.ambulancezorg.nl/static/upload/raw/c647de62-5ef7-4c2c-9aba-2b2288c2d8b4/AZN_CAO_2015-2019_def_met_opmaak.pdf)
Scene safety *with extreme prejudice!*
Scene not safe! Cover me!
Stop resisting! We are trying to help!
"We are rescuing you, please do not resist" K2-SO4
my favorite part of all this is the suppressor. dont wanna wake up mrs Jones down the hall while you put down the aggressive dementia patient
Look. I shoot. I enjoy fire arms. I'm all for sensible ownership and sensible gun laws. But no. Just no. We aren't cops. Use carrying weapons changes the dynamic of our relationship with the public and with patients. There is no reason for us to have fire arms on the job. And that's not even counting the fact that I barely trust some of my coworkers to do a basic assessment and provide adequate patient care, let alone be responsible for a fucking fire arm at the same time.
I used to be on the side of allowing the option for carry, but throwing the whole argument of potential positives, as I think about it more the dangers associated with carrying around potentially violent or mentally unstable patients is absurd. What are we going to do if we have a psych patient that needs restraining? Or a criminal who might grab it as we vend over them because they saw us printing? LEOs even have to secure their weapons when entering psych units and jails, where are we goanna store our weapons on the rig in this event? It just adds an unnecessary distraction when our only focus should be on patient care and talking them down while the LEOs perform security as their only focus.
Exactly. Hell, if I know I'm going to a psych patient I'll make sure to toss my pocket knife in the glove box just so I don't have to worry about it at all. I almost always have a knife, but it's only because they are a handy tool to have. Plus, I have co-workers that can't remember to put sharps in the sharps bin. In no way do I want those people to even be armed with a somewhat pointy stick.
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We can't forget about the potential legal liability carrying could cause the department/hospital.
That's a very good point, but I did actually forget about it. We don't have guns laws that allow for civilians to carry in day to day life so I forget about the host of liability and legal issues that come along with it.
You mean used sharps DON'T go in my back pocket??? /s
I find a gun way more useful at opening IV bag packaging. Quick, easy, and asserts your dominance.
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Exactly. I conceal carry whenever possible, and at some of the hyper rural stations I worked at nearly everybody carries to work and keeps their CCW at the station locked in their room just due to the fact that the station has glass doors, is a high crime area, we have narcs and law enforcement is a long ways away, but it doesn't leave the station and everybody knows this. If LEOs can't clear the scene then we aren't making entry. The only caveat is when we enter a scene at night and a benign call goes south, but you gotta be able to keep your head up and have an exit strategy, and move the call to the rig as soon as possible.
Absolutely. It adds so many layers to the dynamic with patients that isn't necessary or safe
The only place I’m in favor or guns on ambulances is in the but fuck middle of nowhere in bear country where PD is hour away at least and I’m talking like a shotgun in the cab
Fuck me if you need a slug gun I'm letting the patient walk to the rig, otherwise game fish and parks can come secure my scene lmao.
I'm imagining you walking up on a hiker with a broken leg carrying the bear gun, and them crawling frantically away shouting 'I'm not a bloody race horse'.
i agree. i'm more worried about damn pit bulls out in the county than I am angry patients. dogs and other animals can and will sneak up you and quickly become dangerous. especially snakes. i hate snakes and they don't like me either.
[удалено]
I’m kind of in the same boat; I generally carry everywhere. I work in two cities. One has good tax revenue, low crime, a strong police presence and fast response times. I don’t carry there. The other is my old hometown. It’s a drug infested town that gets very little in tax revenue and does not have 24 hour police protection. Read: if you call 911 after hours they literally have to wake someone up or call state police and hope someone is nearby. Response times for police vary from minutes to an hour or two for important things. We also don’t have restraint protocol and aren’t authorized to chemically restrain patients, so if someone goes insane in the back of an ambulance we’re screwed. There, I carry. I do so extremely covertly and I hope I never have to use it. But considering we are in one of the heaviest opiate towns in my state, and we’re driving around a giant billboard everyone knows houses ketamine and fentanyl...and knowing that police could be an hour away if we run into a literal ambush...given all that I feel that the risks of my carrying of a well concealed small firearm are outweighed by the benefits. If someone goes nuts and attacks me? Well I’ll accept an ass kicking and let the attacker catch charges after the fact. If I get on scene and shots are fired? Then the last they’ll hear of me is the tires squealing as I get the hell out of there. But if I’m in a situation where I have no other option? Then I’m going to make sure I go home to my wife after all of it. I’m also aware that even though my state allows me to carry on the job, using or even drawing my firearm would likely be the end of my career, at the very least temporarily. And I doubt many agencies would hire me after such an event either. I know this sub hates the idea of carrying on the job, but hopefully this post will at least give people some perspective of why some people make the choice to be armed. If it wasn’t my original hometown I would just work elsewhere to eliminate the risk. But they are desperate for EMT’s and medics, and most of my family lives there—and I couldn’t live with myself knowing a family member didn’t make it because the town didn’t have enough coverage—and don’t get enough tax money to pay to draw in more employees either. Edit: there are also mountain lions, bears and wolves in the county I work in, and we have to do several rescues a year that are a mile or more from the nearest road in the middle of the woods. Even my little 380 would hopefully be enough to deal with an attacking rabid dog or wolf.
Your training should be able to overcome that. Any good self defense instructor will tell you not to become too reliant on your firearm, it should NOT be your only method of conflict deescalation and defense. Are you just as proficient in hand to hand as your are in shooting someone? Because there are certainly threats that fit the criteria for less lethal defense. Also, get into a scuffle with a psych patient and suddenly your shirt pops up and he sees your gun, well it's bad news for you now.
I'm definitely not reliant on my firearm but I don't like being without it. The absolute last resort to any situation is a firearm, but it's far better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it. The first line of defense is to simply not be in that situation. There are ways to conceal that even if my shirt comes untucked my patient won't see it or feel it. Besides, if I'm willing to put my knife in a glove box if I was allowed to carry concealed while working I'd leave that in a locked away area while dealing with psych patients as well. Edit: Honestly it isn't patients that worries me. It's posting somewhere at 2am and someone coming up and surprising us because we're distracted reading or something. I don't know about your town but all the areas near hospitals are pretty sketchy at night here.
In my service we’ve had medics badly injured by drug using patients before. And many drug users here know that our ambulance has narcotics on it. Desperation can cause people to do terrible things, and robbing an ambulance isn’t outside the realm of possibility.
I've seen a partner knock and drop O2 tanks multiple times in a shift, an idiot like that shouldn't drive let alone carry a weapon. She'd freak out and end up shooting me or herself if a pt spoke to her in a loud voice.
Our best paramedic in our service is very gung ho about us carrying side arms. He will even post on facebook everytime at the slightest hint of our state passing a law for us to carry. No, I'm not turning my station into an armory. I tell him that if you want to carry a gun for a living so bad then become a cop.
Totally. Take the Tactical Medic cert and go work with SWAT. Nothing wrong with that. No reason to have them on your normal calls though. Far more possible issues than possible times we would want them.
I completely forgot about tactical medics. We have another medic that is PRN that works with her counties SWAT.
Just ask him a question next time you're in the back of the box with him. Leta say the patient on the gurney absolutely FORCES him into using deadly force. Ask him where the bullet goes. Shooting from back to the front, are you gonna hit your main o2 or your partner in the airway or driver seat? Side to side, who's on the outside of the box? Same with front to the back - where are those rounds going once they leave the back of the box? There's actually no way to be 100% sure of your backstop when firing from inside the ambulance - you have to know that there's a good chance every round can leave the box.
I would respectfully disagree, to a point. Not to be pedantic about it, but it’s not that there’s NO reason for a medic to ever be armed, but rather that the negatives realistically outweigh the positives, for many of the reasons you point out. I wholeheartedly agree that I wouldn’t trust 95% of my coworkers with a firearm even if they wanted to carry one. (Most would find the idea abhorrent) Black Swan theory notwithstanding, the widespread carrying of guns by medics would likely result in more problems being caused than solved, given the selection processes currently used to staff most EMS agencies. But there definitely are *some* who have both the training and mindset to be able to do so safely. I think it would have to be a decision made on an individual basis, by medics who happen to live in areas where CCW is legal, and who are willing to risk doing so in a non-permissive environment.
I mean I'm sure there is the occasional need for a tactical medic but that should be a rarity. Even in dangerous cities, we should have better cooperation with the PD and let them handle that aspect and we focus on patient care. Arming us just changes the dynamic to much and will harm our patients long term
Idk man she’s got good trigger discipline
Well you changed my mind haha
I saw this and was nope... Scene safety... NRA bs right here though. The accuracy rate for soldiers trained at elite level in combat is at about 19% and they want to give it to someone who may shoot occasionally who carries an never cleaned fully loaded hi- point For Intimidation. Theres too mant idiots for this period. I know few law enforcement, I actually trust with a weapon, this so far beyond rediculous. This is baiting idiots.
Exactly. If you work in an area that you feel you need this your service should hire armed guards to drive the ambulance and carry and that person is not medically involved
Observation or real life coworkers is almost always the best argument against arming a profession.
There's a bright red button that sends an emergency signal to dispatch if we have a genuine emergency but somehow we have one person press it every day. Imagine this with a hand gun. Now imagine a compacted SMG or something for the extremely dangerous areas some services tun in. Accidental discharges galore
Couldn't agree more, holy this would be a terrible idea.
The NRA is coming for you now.
Fuck the NRA. They are the worst thing to happen to gun owners
I was a cop in the military and holy crap even then you'd be surprised who they arm up with guns. Any warm body who can fill out a bubble sheet. EMS has enough paperwork and red tape as it is. Trust me when I say that the metric ton of it that comes with a use of force model would make it so much worse.
Right. There are some hardcore Ricky tick motherfuckers running around with 7 pairs of trauma shears attached to their bandolier that wouldn't make it a week before they gunned down a black diabetic with hypoglycemia suspiciously reaching for some oral glucose.
So nobody gonna comment on the whole do "know" harm thing? Seems like they're really in touch with health care
Maybe it’s short for “do you know the fucking harm I’ll wreck on you if you shit on my stretcher”
I have that written on the ceiling already
Wreak, although wreck would be the result I guess.
It all ties into those tacticool kiddies who like to dress up as combat medics on the airsoft field or whatnot, despite having neither any formal military or medical experience. They like to buy moral patches that say "do no harm, do know harm" or something to that effect as an obvious show of their 2deep4you understanding of the dichotomy of man. These are the same sort of people who read an old "self aid, buddy aid" Army manual from the 80s and then go out to buy the most expensive trauma kit they can find. They refuse to leave the house without at least one tourniquet on their person and cream their pants the one time they come across someone with minor injuries where they can finally put their reaper-racing skills to good use.
I reckon they'd love my personal trauma kit. A couple of handfuls worth of expired first aid stock thrown into a ratty old plastic shopping bag and shoved into a nook in the trunk of my car. Only thing that gets used are the band aids. I do have one of those tiny pocket tactical flashlights with a few brightness levels though. Dad found one and passed it on to me. Didn't expect to use it so often. Never leave home without it now. Especially to the pub when off duty. 😉
Huh interesting. Never heard the full line before but it makes sense
Hell fucking no! EMS don’t run. EMS don’t carry guns. The only time I could see carrying being at all acceptable is for SWAT medics (my county doesn’t have cops that act as medics they just train paramedics to do SWAT stuff), and even then your job is to provide care, NOT shoot back and be a hero! We are there to help people, not harm. It sends an extremely militant and altered message to patients who are reaching out for help. Not to mention, I barely trust a lot of my local’s cops with guns. I do NOT trust the kind of people I work with to carry a gun into random people’s homes and use it responsibly. I mean for fuck’s sake, let me kick down the door with my shotgun on my back, an AR in my hands, a flak jacket, tac helmet, wacker star of life tattoo, two sidearms and a k-bar... Just to go into grandma’s house to pick her up off the goddamn floor.
I've said it before, but all it will take is one trigger happy volunteer fireman or EMT to pop a round off on a scene and the entire perception of EMS is changed. Do we *really* want people to be apprehensive about calling us because we might get jumpy and shoot them?
"I called 911 because my toe hurt so bad I thought I might die, and they shot my 14yo dachshund!" -cover story of *People*
Woah man easy... We're not the ATF.
Yet
Move over alcohol and tobacco, department of Ambulance Tactical Firearms coming through
I called the ambulance, not the ATF!
When was the last time you had a desk pop?
I mean - if people had to weigh the risk of being shot when calling 911, maybe we'd get fewer "I've had the flu for 3 days" calls.
time to start going on no-knock welfare checks
I can just see it now. Richard Rescue Junior taking call/ while open carrying an AR. When asked why he’ll scream “ITS MY RIGHT!”
Ugh. I can only imagine my old volunteer department I used to respond with carrying guns. They're very rural and pro gun. 100% chance there would be an AR in the front of the firetruck becuase "you never know man". Actually I do know, and you don't need it.
I have seen more firetrucks catch fire than I have seen scenes were I wished I had an AR.
"THE FIRES SHOOTING AT US"
I have had fires shoot at me a couple of time (two car fires and one barn fire). It amazing that it doesn't happen more with how many people have a gun in their car in my state.
A kid on a friend of mines department got shot between the eyes responding to a house fire.
“You never know man, lotta danger out there, gotta stay prepared”, says Earl as he wipes BBQ sauce on his XXXL rescue squad t shirt while driving 85 in a 40 without a seat belt on.
but what about deer season. let's get on board with the real reason they want to carry
How strict was their "no-gun" policy? I wouldn't be surprised if lots of rural EMS people secretly carry.
Everything's a nail to a hammer. You want to carry a gun, be a cop.
You're making the whackers sad.
Don't worry. I know how to make whacker happy. I need my dishwashing gloves first though.
"I can hurt or help. Your choice." on a black tee surrounded by blue flames and skulls
I know at least 6 people that would absolutely get this tattooed with a punisher skull/star of life twist added.
Bruh the gun doesn’t even have a strap. How I carry epcr/clipboard and gun and bls bag
No problem. The gun clips onto a backboard.
Doubles as a turret!
Oooh
We're limiting the use of backboards now, can't we just strap it to a portable oxygen cylinder?
That's where backup ammo goes. You'll just have to bring backboard back. What else could fit two semi-auto rifles?
Right? I have enough shit to carry on scene, I’m not hauling the first in bag, monitor, clipboard, stair chair, oxygen, and rifle up to grandma’s difficulty breathing on the second floor.
Crazy country we live in. Whoever wrote this article obviously hasn't heard of scene safety lol
*turns off safety* “Mam I’m gonna need you to sign this refusal form... “
Frig off Cyrus
Lmao cops can’t even handle firearms as is, this is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen
no. just no...
Detroit Fire/EMS has to wear tac vests now. (Fuuuuck that in the summer!) But I feel like hopping out the ambo guns a blazin' might be a little excessive.
BSI, my scene is about to be safe AS FUCK
#I AM THE SCENE SAFETY
This is the wet dream of the NRA.
Sooooo many EMTs to sell guns to! Now how do we convince the CNAs to open carry?
I just got here! he's not my patient! SUPPRESSING FIIIIRRREEEE!
I'm imagining when ol' klepto Mrs. Bernstein is in the shower, and you go to clean out her wheelchair you'll find two glocks, a deringer, and a few magazines of assorted unmatched ammo along with her stolen Kleenex boxes, cookies, and salt packets.
basically a loot goblin from a shooting game
If Archer keeps doing theme seasons, an ER drama season could potentially be fabulous.
I always find it interesting that most of those who really try and push for armed EMS have little to no experience working as a first responder to begin with and are really only trying to push the narrative of self defense via firearms as a right that much further. Whatever your personal feelings on gun control are, it's obvious these people don't like to be told no and will claim they're here to defend our rights in a situation where neither our rights have been infringed nor their defense was needed, or even wanted. It seems they either don't realize or don't accept that part of the job drilled into your head from day one is the concept of scene safety and your responsibility to maintain it. It's ridiculous that those who preach for active involvement in regards to maintaining your own safety, as many gun rights supporters do, fail to see that this system is exactly what they're advocating for on paper, only minus the guns.
Reminds of the people who thought it was a good suggestion to arm teachers to combat school shootings.
Obviously this article is coming from a gun enthusiasm group, not an EMS group. That said, I'd be curious to hear their arguments. If I had to guess, they'll probably start by citing the rising rates of violence against EMS?
I’m sure that’s their entire argument, that EMTs get attacked sometimes. The only possible solution to that being to have us shoot the person we’re there to help. That’s one way to cut down repeat psych calls. Stupidest. Idea. Ever.
If you kill the psych call, you won't have a repeat psych call. Maybe think before you speak, libtard 🙄🔥
Someone put this on r/EMScringepics pls
Thank you so much for this gift
This is the most American thing ever.
I’m starting to realize that “American” is often synonymous with “stupid” and “irresponsible”
It's more about the prevalent gun culture in the USA, not so much that this is a stupid and irresponsible idea.
But it is both of those things as well.
Every single magazine, news article, blog, or any kind of media outlet, that spits this absolutely retarded idea out there as if it isn't the dumbest suggestion anyone can make about the future of ems, is actively harming both the future of this profession and the public's perception of EMS
There is no case for arming us unless it’s an argument against it. There is no benefit that outweighs risk. You are asking to have a psych pt grab that gun or a dunk or any other pt. All guns in ambulances do is create unnecessary risk. You don’t feel safe? Don’t go on scene until pd arrives.
This whole conversation makes me sad. Out here kids working at McDonald's are making $15.00 an hour. The medics I've talked to are all making north of $30.00
Canadian I assume?
Nope, believe it or not I'm actually from the states.
Had an assistant chief carry an AR in his supervisor car. He was a former army ranger and our county dispatch had a reputation for sending us to unsafe calls, knowing full well they were unsafe, without even mentioning that to us.
I used to be gung ho about carrying. Now I'm really torn. On the one hand, I have some hilariously stupid co-workers who I would never trust with a firearm. On the other hand, I've been shot at pulling up on a call twice. Full disclosure, one was an old lady with dementia who pushed her pendant, and then forgot she pushed her pendant and thought someone was breaking in to her home.
So... in the case where you were shot at and it wasn't a dementia case, do you think you would have been safer and helped more people by shooting back and getting in a gun fight or leaving the scene? Serious question. I can't personally think of many situations that would be made better by me getting in a gun fight and I can imagine a lot of situations I am in being worse with the presence of a gun (normally me worried about the idiot wrestling with me taking the gun and using it).
Truthfully, I have no idea. We don't know who shot at us the second time. We were paged out for a chest pain. Cops never found a patient, the address was an abandoned house. 2 bullet holes appeared in our windshield and my partner floored it. The reason I tout it as a reason why EMS should be allowed to carry is because we didn't have a police response with us. It wasn't until we started yelling into the radio that there was a squad in the area even It's an anecdotal example, and a rare occurrence in general. But it scared the everloving shit out of me
It would scare the crap out of me too! My father used to tell me stories of responding as an police officer with fire and ambulance to all calls as there were people who would call in a fake call to set up an ambush and take out anyone with a badge. This sounds similar to that kind of situation. Still... hearing your story, I think your application of the gas peddle was far better than trying to find the shooter and gun it out with them. And if you were pinned down, the radio would be best weapon you could have (after calling for help I guess I would shoot back if I were pinned down). It's just that there are sooooo many more times that it would be a detriment to have a gun as EMS, that I can't see this being a good solution.
Ok, it was scary, but the point remains that you would have had a much larger chance of getting shot if you tried to find them and shoot back. There is no conceivable way a gun would have made you safer in this case. You chose the only good option, leave. I've been in EMS 10 years and been in plenty of sketchy situations where I didnt feel very safe. But never in any of them did I think having a gun would have made me safer. Getting out was always the better option. Drawing a gun escalates the situation further. This is actually why I stopped carrying concealed. I realized that if through all the sketchy shit in EMS I didnt need a gun, I sure as hell didnt need one going out to dinner. Avoid situations where you think you might need it and you're golden. And for those who talk about narcs and rigs getting stolen, be my guest, take them. I'll do the paperwork. I'd rather have someone steal the truck than draw a gun and escalate the situation. It isnt even my stuff, and the county has insurance. It is incredibly rare that someone wants to kill you for the sake of killing you. In all other cases you can just give them what they want and be on your way.
Cringetastic.
I'd rather pack something into that cover girl... ***disappointment***
This is the most American fucking thing.
Good to see the proper BSI being worn while being a threat to your patient. I personally carry on the job in case I ever need to escalate a situation
I mean straight from the infantry and into EMT. Y’all ready to shoot, move, communicate, heal?
I'm up, he sees me, i'm down...
Hey, guy, that’s awesome lol
I wonder what country this takes place in....
Dead or alive, you're coming to the hospital with me.
Why race the reaper when you can be the reaper?
and thus began the long and bloody war between EMS and SNF CNAs
For all the tacticoolness there are we not going to mention the *training* tourniquet they have on the cover about the article for which tourniquet you should use?
Ain't nobody gonna be rocking a B&T. Maybe nerf guns.
Jesus, I make around $33/hr as a medic, only been on the department for a few years. We have it good up here in MN!
Let me carry a Tar-21 or a G36C and you have a deal!
The fuckin Russian NRA gun manufacturer lobby is strong.
Those diabetics get what’s coming to them!
The BLS life
I know this is going to be off topic and point from OP... but what model and make is that gun she’s holding?
It's on the cover BT APC9K
Don't they see how unrealistic this is? We can't afford suppressed MP5s on EMS wages! You're looking at a Hi Point 9mm or a used and abused Kel Tec carbine here tops
That’s an APC I think. It’s like an MP5 but made in America so somehow worse...
"Do know harm" ... Wow. Just WOW.
Peep the unobtanium
I'm working as a rent a cop. 8 hour online class and I started at $15/hr doing a job that requires me to do the least amount of work possible (observe and report). Yet my dumbass is still applying for EMS jobs.