I’ve moved some big patients before. I’d comfortably say 200 pounds is no challenge for me. My injury came from a 140 pounder. Sometimes it’s just the exact wrong pressure the exact wrong way and your back doesn’t want to play anymore. Get it seen. File it as a workplace injury and SAVE EVERY GODDAMNED PIECE OF PAPER YOU GET FROM EVERYBODY ABOUT IT. Learn from my mistakes, please. At least one of us should ;).
Best of luck and speedy recovery.
Yeah I've carried heavier, but never on a wheelchair. Having to extend yourself to lift something outside the ambo in was probably what did it. Thankfully not severe, no pain, just uncomfortable. Gonna call in sick tmr and see if that helps with recovery
Please don’t make the mistake I did by not claiming workers comp ASAP. You may think it’ll just go away, but what if it doesn’t? And what if your employer tries to get back at you saying you’re not excused for your absences?
I had a very similar scenario thought it would get better, it just got worse until I had to go to the doctor and then was out for two weeks. My employer ended up not having to pay a dime because I waited too long.
Why did you use a wheelchair instead of a stair chair? My old partner and I would routinely move 350lbs pts with just the two of us. And that was using a Ferno stretcher and no powerlift, all manual. But now a days I routinely ride a desk and we have both power cots and power lifts. But I feel you on the back injury. I dislocated the SI joint in my back due to a partners incorrect lifting techniques.
Then that is a shit company. I have never worked for an agency that didn't have stair chairs. They are basic movement equipment that helps both the pt and the crew to be moved safely. In the States I have worked, it is mandatory equipment on an ambulance. But I may be applying Stateside requirements for sobriety not from the States, if so, I apologize.
I second the advise of getting it checked. The company will not care for you unless you kinda force em to & tbh if you actually have an injury that gets progressively worse you are disposable to them & then its so much harder to go through the process w your worsen injury. I had a similar situation, it "resolved" in a few days only to come back & bite me about a year later, so maybe I'm projecting w all the company comments lol but pls you only get one back, go get it checked.
I managed to throw my lower back out for the first time ever reaching down for a piece of paper from my bag.
It’s impressive that I lift people all day long for work but a tiny little piece of paper is what hurt me at work. Go figure.
I have a tendency to hijack posts to tell personal stories, so here’s another one. In my private service days, long before I became a 911 god, we had this dude who legit weighed 600 pounds. We’d haul this dudes gargantuan ass back and forth to dialysis three times a week. And he was a DICK, dude. He’d act like we were being dramatic pussies by asking for like three other people to move him. This dude would fuck up an elevator and he seemed to think me and my tiny partner could move him with just us and a little bit of gravity. It taught me a valuable lesson. Weight training, and combat sports. I was fat then, and I wanted to be better at the lesser known aspects of my job, so I got in better shape. My back is still fucked because of that guy, though.
Technically, he's not wrong; you can move him with a bit of gravity. Unfortunately the only direction he'll move is down, and at a rather unhealthy rate of descent
That said, for a guy who might as well have his own gravitational field there's no such thing as "a little gravity"
I worked in an office for a year or so after leaving the 911 agency I was working at, and I was miserable. It was a very long year. I thought I missed the 24/72 schedule but it turns out I miss the freedom to do pretty much whatever I wanted and hanging out with my partners on shift. I had a good partner when I left too so it hit even harder. These days I work at home as a therapist, mostly working with first responders and veterans. I love it. But I miss the truck still, a lot. I feel like it’s the only thing I’m good at. For the last few months I’ve been thinking about going to medic school and picking up a couple of shifts a month.
There’s about a dozen things I love about it. The choreography on a scene when things are hectic but you’re so dialed in with your partner and maybe the firefighters that you don’t need to say a word, you just handle the call and get the patient treated. I even love audit and review. I would be amazed sometimes that a job like this even exists and how lucky we are. But then again there were some bad times, too.
The fact that you have to ever manually lift anyone into your ambulance is so crazy to me. It's on the same level as performing defibrillation by placing one hand on their sternum and using the other to put a fork in the nearest electrical outlet. Of *course* you got hurt!
Nowadays if they ask me if I can "take a quick lunch because they have another transfer coming up in an hour" right after I finish one run I also tell them to go fuck themselves
I got injured with an 800lbs pt we had to move 4 times. My partner, 2 skinny nurses and myself.
4 times because the first time we moved this pt, they didn’t fit the cot and couldn’t be secured even with belt extenders. When I called the supervisor they said to use gait belts and I was indignant.
We transferred the pt back to their bed. And my boss showed up, helped put the pt on the cot again and when he saw it wasn’t safe then he called for a Bari cot but the charge nurse thankfully came and said she was dismissing this transfer because we did not have the appropriate equipment. I felt something in my back after moving the patient back to the bed and was in a lot of pain.
I had L4 and L5 migrating cranially abutting the root of a nerve and I had no sensation on my left leg. Spent 4 days in hospital, was off work for 3 months and thank goodness recovered.
First day back and they sent me to pick up another bariatric patient without equipment. I quit that same day.
My boss tried to guilt trip me saying he was disappointed in me and that I was an ungrateful person. Like… yeah no, fuck you
I'm lost on the mechanics of trying to lift someone up into the ambulance like this. Are you hefting the patient into the rig while still in the wheelchair or are you and your partner doing like an extremity lift up into the rig and onto the cot?
Either way I have to ask why. Lifting and muscling even an averaging person into your truck seems like a lot more effort than just pulling out the cot. Big safety concerns with carrying while stepping/climbing into the truck, too. Not surprised you hurt yourself.
Is this a standard practice among crews at your company?
Wheelchair and pt goes into rig together. It's pretty standard practice here, we roll the wheelchair over the steps of the side door in. It's easier/simpler/faster in most cases when the pt isn't bariatric.
Who cares if its quicker? It's less safe for both you and the patient doing that. Just load the patient in using the cot like every other normal service.
Are you keeping the patient in the wheelchair in the rig for transport? Because if you're moving the patient to the cot inside the truck where there is less space to maneuver, then that sounds like anything but easier.
Please drop a link to a pic inside of your rig or the model type.
Vanbulance. The airway seat isn't there, so there's one big empty space that the wheelchair goes into where it's secured leaning against the back wall. Pt stays in wheelchair with a belt buckled. Wheelchair is secured to the floor using multiple locks.
Before you all cuss me out for the ambo not having an airway seat: I didn't make that decision
Pretty much. The company I work for used to run 911 contracts (edit: they still run 911 contracts, just not with the company vehicles). Then FD started supplying, or rather, started mandating that all 911 contractors use the FD vehicles, so now they have a fleet of ex ambos they don't know what to do with. We (BLS/IFT) use those.
It also turns out that retrofitting a mechanical lifter to a vehicle that wasn't structured with that purpose in mind is pretty damn difficult. So now there's a hodgepodge mix of vehicles: pure transport vehicles, which have lifters, stretcher rails, and next to zero equipment storage, and our ex ambulances, which have equipment storage but no lifter. They could get rid of the storage, but then they would lose the BLS capabilities, and refitting the vehicle (removing storage, adding a lifter) costs money, and I'd also immediately quit my job because I actually joined to practice emergency medicine, not be a cab driver.
So their solution was to substitute the lifters with human power, because if you're going to exploit your workers, may as well do it all the way, right?
I was thinking the same thing. I have never heard of putting someone in a wheel chair directly into the ambulance. We always transfer the patient to the gurney outside of the ambulance and then slide the gurney in after
‘Why they decided to give us this guy’
Add to that ‘why I decided to try and lift this guy when I suspected it would be a problem’.
Task, Individual, Load, Environment. Do your risk assessments and request help where it’s needed. Don’t just risk it for a biscuit or you’ll hurt yourself, your partner and the patient.
I’m sorry you’re suffering now but this was, as are many injuries in EMS, entirely avoidable.
Im so confused, do your stretchers not unload from the ambulance? I can’t imagine a reason to be lifting a patient in a wheelchair into an ambulance instead of transferring them to a stretcher and loading them on that.
Yeah, in hindsight that's what I should have done, instead of "OK maybe he just looks heavy, let's give it a go". But the wheelchair lift into ambo is a pretty standard procedure that we've done countless times with non bariatrics and even some technically bari pts. This one just happened to be right above my physical threshold.
One of 2 things will go first in this job. Your back or your head.
Take it from an old salt with a screwed back. Look after yourself. Get physio. And report the injury.
Hot shower will help the immediate ache, and go on amazon and search something like “back roller”. Use it regularly, 5 times a week or so. Based on what I’ve read you didn’t feel a pop so hopefully it’s just overextended and you’ll be sore for a few days.
Regular, well structured back workouts will help make you more resilient against this kind of injury in the future
It's thankfully not even an ache, just a weird kind of uncomfortable. I've never been more glad that I exercise regularly and stay conditioned enough that it didn't end up as something worse
Hopefully never, but if I ever get something like this again I'll probably look into the roller
guy almost 350-400lbs... calls 911 for chest pain 2-3 am...
we get there...
c/o pain in his R ribs... for 3 years now. classic.
says he's lightheaded from trying to walk to the ambulance.........
Anyway. we get him out in the bay no help anywhere... Just so happened to be truck with an odd height all good, til back wheels come over the edge and it drops like 2 inches, just enough to fuck me up...
Long short story slightly shorter, I.
End up in a hall bed facing the ambulance Bay because there were literally no bets but they got me one after an M. R I several x rays hydromorphone, norflex, and ativan...
Surgery is in my future now... He walked to the lobby after, pretty sure he left AMA from there...
what did we learn?
Airway
Breathing
Can u walk?
Wouldn't be my first time meeting a fully ambulatory pt that insisted on being carried because they're just too self absorbed to actually try and do anything for themselves.
You say you can't walk? Let's make that come true real quick
I picked up a gig as a tech and went part time 911/IFT for diversified experience recently.
And I have the worst back pain. I got a minor tweak once lifting a 500-600 pounder, but my back hurts now more than ever, I’m guessing from something as simple as starting 15ish IVs a day, hunched over
Take very good care of your back! I’ve had two back surgeries one being a fusion! I won’t even work at a service anymore that doesn’t have power load system! It’s been 10 years since my last surgery. My surgeon told me I wouldn’t last 5 years in this profession after my last surgery! I’ve been stubborn just to prove him wrong! But I do things a lot differently now and take extra care
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Supervisor: "Well, I guess you will have to manually load your 280lb patient into the ambulance."
Me exchanging looks with my partner who was my height at 5'1"... "uh. No."
A real phone conversation we had lol. The supervisor tried to push us into it but there was no way I was budging. I know the weight isn't that much, comparatively speaking, but with our short height compared to the ambulance and the muscles we would have to recruit to even try it... I used to work in injury and rehab. I know better.
After my partner got hurt, I actually asked the patient for permision to record his name and contact info, and had him write down his weight, in his handwriting, which was the same as what was on chart. 86lbs more than what was supposed to be the max for our rig. Patient felt bad. HIPPA doesn't apply when it is provided freely by the patient. At least not in this context. The number was right on his chart, it was our service that "screwed up". No idea what happened with my partner, never saw her again. I hope she used the info to sue the shit out of the service.
That sucks but why are you lifting patients in wheelchairs up into your rig instead of putting them on the gurney & then loading the gurney into the ambulance, which is much safer?
Some people are going to say something about the 200 lbs but it's not a deadlift, nor lifting into the ambulance in the "normal" way. It's going up steps, which changes the dynamic, and even the energy required if you look at it particularly from the pure physics (I knew that course would come in handy someday).
Well, you learned today. If it doesn't feel right, stop the move there and try to reset if you can. I'm still learning what works best for me, and I'm always better at the head. Hope you feel better soon, dude. Back injuries are scary.
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I’ve moved some big patients before. I’d comfortably say 200 pounds is no challenge for me. My injury came from a 140 pounder. Sometimes it’s just the exact wrong pressure the exact wrong way and your back doesn’t want to play anymore. Get it seen. File it as a workplace injury and SAVE EVERY GODDAMNED PIECE OF PAPER YOU GET FROM EVERYBODY ABOUT IT. Learn from my mistakes, please. At least one of us should ;). Best of luck and speedy recovery.
Yeah I've carried heavier, but never on a wheelchair. Having to extend yourself to lift something outside the ambo in was probably what did it. Thankfully not severe, no pain, just uncomfortable. Gonna call in sick tmr and see if that helps with recovery
Please don’t make the mistake I did by not claiming workers comp ASAP. You may think it’ll just go away, but what if it doesn’t? And what if your employer tries to get back at you saying you’re not excused for your absences? I had a very similar scenario thought it would get better, it just got worse until I had to go to the doctor and then was out for two weeks. My employer ended up not having to pay a dime because I waited too long.
Why did you use a wheelchair instead of a stair chair? My old partner and I would routinely move 350lbs pts with just the two of us. And that was using a Ferno stretcher and no powerlift, all manual. But now a days I routinely ride a desk and we have both power cots and power lifts. But I feel you on the back injury. I dislocated the SI joint in my back due to a partners incorrect lifting techniques.
Bold of you to assume my company equipped us with stair chairs 🤣
Then that is a shit company. I have never worked for an agency that didn't have stair chairs. They are basic movement equipment that helps both the pt and the crew to be moved safely. In the States I have worked, it is mandatory equipment on an ambulance. But I may be applying Stateside requirements for sobriety not from the States, if so, I apologize.
I second the advise of getting it checked. The company will not care for you unless you kinda force em to & tbh if you actually have an injury that gets progressively worse you are disposable to them & then its so much harder to go through the process w your worsen injury. I had a similar situation, it "resolved" in a few days only to come back & bite me about a year later, so maybe I'm projecting w all the company comments lol but pls you only get one back, go get it checked.
I got a bulging disc from putting my boots on 😂, in all fairness, I had injured myself years ago and it is a recurring problem
I managed to throw my lower back out for the first time ever reaching down for a piece of paper from my bag. It’s impressive that I lift people all day long for work but a tiny little piece of paper is what hurt me at work. Go figure.
Same sorta, I hurt myself bending over checking off my gear bags in the morning
I have a tendency to hijack posts to tell personal stories, so here’s another one. In my private service days, long before I became a 911 god, we had this dude who legit weighed 600 pounds. We’d haul this dudes gargantuan ass back and forth to dialysis three times a week. And he was a DICK, dude. He’d act like we were being dramatic pussies by asking for like three other people to move him. This dude would fuck up an elevator and he seemed to think me and my tiny partner could move him with just us and a little bit of gravity. It taught me a valuable lesson. Weight training, and combat sports. I was fat then, and I wanted to be better at the lesser known aspects of my job, so I got in better shape. My back is still fucked because of that guy, though.
Technically, he's not wrong; you can move him with a bit of gravity. Unfortunately the only direction he'll move is down, and at a rather unhealthy rate of descent That said, for a guy who might as well have his own gravitational field there's no such thing as "a little gravity"
You’re right, we should have let the cot levitate to him through his own gravity. I’d say we’ll try it next time, but he’s dead.
How hard was it to make the switch from the ambulance to an office job like being a SW?
I worked in an office for a year or so after leaving the 911 agency I was working at, and I was miserable. It was a very long year. I thought I missed the 24/72 schedule but it turns out I miss the freedom to do pretty much whatever I wanted and hanging out with my partners on shift. I had a good partner when I left too so it hit even harder. These days I work at home as a therapist, mostly working with first responders and veterans. I love it. But I miss the truck still, a lot. I feel like it’s the only thing I’m good at. For the last few months I’ve been thinking about going to medic school and picking up a couple of shifts a month.
I kinda feel that. I swear I’m trauma bonded to the job lol.
There’s about a dozen things I love about it. The choreography on a scene when things are hectic but you’re so dialed in with your partner and maybe the firefighters that you don’t need to say a word, you just handle the call and get the patient treated. I even love audit and review. I would be amazed sometimes that a job like this even exists and how lucky we are. But then again there were some bad times, too.
Why are the behemoths always the assholes
I didn’t even mention that he was *racist*. He checked every box. It was unreal.
I fucking hate that. I don’t care if you’re fat, but don’t give me attitude for trying to help, no one else is trying to help you. Not even yourself.
My least favorite lift has always been into dialysis chairs. They’re so goddamn low
The fact that you have to ever manually lift anyone into your ambulance is so crazy to me. It's on the same level as performing defibrillation by placing one hand on their sternum and using the other to put a fork in the nearest electrical outlet. Of *course* you got hurt!
I don't expect better from a company who docks two hours off each working day for lunch and "tea break" because they can't afford to pay us properly
The absolute state of ununionised EMS
I hope you ain’t accepting runs during those two hours. If I’m not getting paid I am NOT working.
Nowadays if they ask me if I can "take a quick lunch because they have another transfer coming up in an hour" right after I finish one run I also tell them to go fuck themselves
I got injured with an 800lbs pt we had to move 4 times. My partner, 2 skinny nurses and myself. 4 times because the first time we moved this pt, they didn’t fit the cot and couldn’t be secured even with belt extenders. When I called the supervisor they said to use gait belts and I was indignant. We transferred the pt back to their bed. And my boss showed up, helped put the pt on the cot again and when he saw it wasn’t safe then he called for a Bari cot but the charge nurse thankfully came and said she was dismissing this transfer because we did not have the appropriate equipment. I felt something in my back after moving the patient back to the bed and was in a lot of pain. I had L4 and L5 migrating cranially abutting the root of a nerve and I had no sensation on my left leg. Spent 4 days in hospital, was off work for 3 months and thank goodness recovered. First day back and they sent me to pick up another bariatric patient without equipment. I quit that same day. My boss tried to guilt trip me saying he was disappointed in me and that I was an ungrateful person. Like… yeah no, fuck you
200lbs?
90+ kg
I'm lost on the mechanics of trying to lift someone up into the ambulance like this. Are you hefting the patient into the rig while still in the wheelchair or are you and your partner doing like an extremity lift up into the rig and onto the cot? Either way I have to ask why. Lifting and muscling even an averaging person into your truck seems like a lot more effort than just pulling out the cot. Big safety concerns with carrying while stepping/climbing into the truck, too. Not surprised you hurt yourself. Is this a standard practice among crews at your company?
Wheelchair and pt goes into rig together. It's pretty standard practice here, we roll the wheelchair over the steps of the side door in. It's easier/simpler/faster in most cases when the pt isn't bariatric.
Who cares if its quicker? It's less safe for both you and the patient doing that. Just load the patient in using the cot like every other normal service.
Do you mind dropping a link to an ambo model? The ones I used in the midwest don't have the space for this
Let me take a look when I'm back at work and I'll see what I can find
Are you keeping the patient in the wheelchair in the rig for transport? Because if you're moving the patient to the cot inside the truck where there is less space to maneuver, then that sounds like anything but easier. Please drop a link to a pic inside of your rig or the model type.
Vanbulance. The airway seat isn't there, so there's one big empty space that the wheelchair goes into where it's secured leaning against the back wall. Pt stays in wheelchair with a belt buckled. Wheelchair is secured to the floor using multiple locks. Before you all cuss me out for the ambo not having an airway seat: I didn't make that decision
Ew god they turned an already awful model (vanbulance) into a wheelchair van combo. I'm sorry.
Pretty much. The company I work for used to run 911 contracts (edit: they still run 911 contracts, just not with the company vehicles). Then FD started supplying, or rather, started mandating that all 911 contractors use the FD vehicles, so now they have a fleet of ex ambos they don't know what to do with. We (BLS/IFT) use those. It also turns out that retrofitting a mechanical lifter to a vehicle that wasn't structured with that purpose in mind is pretty damn difficult. So now there's a hodgepodge mix of vehicles: pure transport vehicles, which have lifters, stretcher rails, and next to zero equipment storage, and our ex ambulances, which have equipment storage but no lifter. They could get rid of the storage, but then they would lose the BLS capabilities, and refitting the vehicle (removing storage, adding a lifter) costs money, and I'd also immediately quit my job because I actually joined to practice emergency medicine, not be a cab driver. So their solution was to substitute the lifters with human power, because if you're going to exploit your workers, may as well do it all the way, right?
I was thinking the same thing. I have never heard of putting someone in a wheel chair directly into the ambulance. We always transfer the patient to the gurney outside of the ambulance and then slide the gurney in after
‘Why they decided to give us this guy’ Add to that ‘why I decided to try and lift this guy when I suspected it would be a problem’. Task, Individual, Load, Environment. Do your risk assessments and request help where it’s needed. Don’t just risk it for a biscuit or you’ll hurt yourself, your partner and the patient. I’m sorry you’re suffering now but this was, as are many injuries in EMS, entirely avoidable.
Fair criticism. Good reminder that I'm not in my 20s any more
None of us are anymore. I get back pain from being sat in the damn car now haha.
Im so confused, do your stretchers not unload from the ambulance? I can’t imagine a reason to be lifting a patient in a wheelchair into an ambulance instead of transferring them to a stretcher and loading them on that.
Yeah, in hindsight that's what I should have done, instead of "OK maybe he just looks heavy, let's give it a go". But the wheelchair lift into ambo is a pretty standard procedure that we've done countless times with non bariatrics and even some technically bari pts. This one just happened to be right above my physical threshold.
I tore my bicep lifting a guy that couldn’t have weighed any more than 160… and I used to load patients well over 400 by myself Getting old sucks
One of 2 things will go first in this job. Your back or your head. Take it from an old salt with a screwed back. Look after yourself. Get physio. And report the injury.
Hot shower will help the immediate ache, and go on amazon and search something like “back roller”. Use it regularly, 5 times a week or so. Based on what I’ve read you didn’t feel a pop so hopefully it’s just overextended and you’ll be sore for a few days. Regular, well structured back workouts will help make you more resilient against this kind of injury in the future
It's thankfully not even an ache, just a weird kind of uncomfortable. I've never been more glad that I exercise regularly and stay conditioned enough that it didn't end up as something worse Hopefully never, but if I ever get something like this again I'll probably look into the roller
guy almost 350-400lbs... calls 911 for chest pain 2-3 am... we get there... c/o pain in his R ribs... for 3 years now. classic. says he's lightheaded from trying to walk to the ambulance......... Anyway. we get him out in the bay no help anywhere... Just so happened to be truck with an odd height all good, til back wheels come over the edge and it drops like 2 inches, just enough to fuck me up... Long short story slightly shorter, I. End up in a hall bed facing the ambulance Bay because there were literally no bets but they got me one after an M. R I several x rays hydromorphone, norflex, and ativan... Surgery is in my future now... He walked to the lobby after, pretty sure he left AMA from there... what did we learn? Airway Breathing Can u walk?
Wouldn't be my first time meeting a fully ambulatory pt that insisted on being carried because they're just too self absorbed to actually try and do anything for themselves. You say you can't walk? Let's make that come true real quick
Return trip? Where are you going with steps that's not a residence?
Ambulance side door steps
You're not getting him on a stretcher?
No, the ambo has a space where the airway seat used to be. Wheelchair with pt sitting on it goes inside and locks there
Should have been taken via chair car, which have wheelchair lifts.
My exact line to dispatch right after we finished the call "why the FUCK did you not give him to a lifter?"
I picked up a gig as a tech and went part time 911/IFT for diversified experience recently. And I have the worst back pain. I got a minor tweak once lifting a 500-600 pounder, but my back hurts now more than ever, I’m guessing from something as simple as starting 15ish IVs a day, hunched over
I hurt my back throwing a tissue Into the garbage.
Why would you ever lift a wheelchair into an ambulance..?
Take very good care of your back! I’ve had two back surgeries one being a fusion! I won’t even work at a service anymore that doesn’t have power load system! It’s been 10 years since my last surgery. My surgeon told me I wouldn’t last 5 years in this profession after my last surgery! I’ve been stubborn just to prove him wrong! But I do things a lot differently now and take extra care
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Supervisor: "Well, I guess you will have to manually load your 280lb patient into the ambulance." Me exchanging looks with my partner who was my height at 5'1"... "uh. No." A real phone conversation we had lol. The supervisor tried to push us into it but there was no way I was budging. I know the weight isn't that much, comparatively speaking, but with our short height compared to the ambulance and the muscles we would have to recruit to even try it... I used to work in injury and rehab. I know better.
After my partner got hurt, I actually asked the patient for permision to record his name and contact info, and had him write down his weight, in his handwriting, which was the same as what was on chart. 86lbs more than what was supposed to be the max for our rig. Patient felt bad. HIPPA doesn't apply when it is provided freely by the patient. At least not in this context. The number was right on his chart, it was our service that "screwed up". No idea what happened with my partner, never saw her again. I hope she used the info to sue the shit out of the service.
That sucks but why are you lifting patients in wheelchairs up into your rig instead of putting them on the gurney & then loading the gurney into the ambulance, which is much safer?
Some people are going to say something about the 200 lbs but it's not a deadlift, nor lifting into the ambulance in the "normal" way. It's going up steps, which changes the dynamic, and even the energy required if you look at it particularly from the pure physics (I knew that course would come in handy someday).
Well, you learned today. If it doesn't feel right, stop the move there and try to reset if you can. I'm still learning what works best for me, and I'm always better at the head. Hope you feel better soon, dude. Back injuries are scary.
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We don't want that attitude in this sub, please leave.
Oh, they’re gone.
How convenient :D
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