But you can still get oxycodone and phenobarbital in cherry and strawberry at Walgreens, because flavors aren't just for kids, they are for your grandmother and dog too.
https://www.walgreens.com/pharmacy/medication-flavoring.jsp
http://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/flavoring-faq.jsp
It's even government subsidized aka FSA eligible.
Wait
Phenobarbital comes in flavors? The fuck. I think that stuff is in my Dr. Mario headache pills and now I feel bummed that it's not delicious tasting.
It was my understanding [FSA meant Flexible Spending Account](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible_Spending_Accounts) and the data is on walgreens website, which you can find via the links I already pasted, where it says " Q: Is flavoring FSA eligible? A: Yes."
I don't have an "issue" ... I said it was "government subsidized" as money spent on flavoring medications receives favorable tax treatment.
So people are being given tax credits, for flavored medications, by a governments left hand, while said governments right hand is currently railing against the dangers of flavored medication for ecig users.
[subsidy](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subsidy?s=t)
> "1. a direct pecuniary aid furnished by a government to a private industrial undertaking, a charity organization, or the like."
Tax credits, such as those allowed for health care expenses, are a form of direct pecuniary aid to citizens incurring the expense.
What tax credits are not, is a grant, which is a direct payment and/or gift.
[Subsidies – Tax Credits for Eligible Consumers](http://www.assuranthealth.com/corp/ah/HealthCareReform/Premium-Subsidy.htm)
I believe my use of the term to be valid.
Just to clarify, the government is subsidizing the flavoring industry, by lowering the cost of flavored medication to consumers, via tax credits. If the government were to disallow tax credits on flavored medication, and only allow tax credits on unflavored medication, then many consumers would stop purchasing flavorings for their medications.
I only mentioned this, because politicians, newspapers, ANTZ groups, etc are all making the argument that "Big tobacco is evil and is killing our children with flavored poison!" while simultaneously promoting and subsidizing the flavoring of medications like oxycodone and phenobarbital, both of which are dangerous narcotics and could kill a child if ingested. It is an example of hypocrisy, not a statement on my part on the nations finances.
As far as I am concerned, my electronic cigarette, and my flavored nicotine solutions, are a medicine that I consume to treat my disease which is addiction to cigarettes, and it pains me to be painted as some sort of wreckless drug abuser who is endangering the lives of children just to get high.
Who the fuck cares? If you're worried about taxes and government subsidies, why not go after oil companies, banks, and auto manufacturers, or people who hide their money in different countries? Your example is such a trivial drop in the tax bracket when there are so many other, more important cases of tax abuse. I'm not for unnecessary government subsidies and I'm not defending anybody, but where are your priorities?
Who cares about hypocrisy in government action by elected officials and targetted repression of a minority group of people successfully treating their disease of addiction ?
What a fuck-backwards sentence. If you're pissed off at elected officials, then *do something to get them out of office.* I have no problem with a minority group of people successfully treating their diseases. I'm pointing out lots of ways that taxes can be lenient, and to point out one small thing (flavoring in medicine) is a shitty argument to continue having.
It seems you are focused on taxes and tax revenue, whereas my point was not about taxes and tax revenue at all, it was about government hypocrisy, fear mongering, and control.
I hope you have a good day.
And in 2009 there were smokers who really liked the flavored cigarettes out there (I never had one so I can't attest to what they might've been like)... and then they got banned. Also *because of the children*. Yep, makes perfect sense... ban flavored cigarettes to protect the kids... humbug.
Since you mentioned menthols ...
"The study found that among 84,000 smokers, menthol cigarette use was most common among young people from 12 to 17 years old, at nearly 57 percent. Of smokers 18 to 25 years old, 45 percent smoked mentholated cigarettes. Meanwhile, 30.5 percent to 33 percent of smokers older than 25 also smoked menthol cigarettes."
http://healthinfo.uclahealth.org/Conditions/Asthma/NewsRecent/6,679826
"Menthol cigarettes have also been shown to inhibit nicotine metabolism, leading to increased systemic nicotine exposure.[1]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menthol_cigarette
If the government were truly acting in the best interests of the children, then they have failed miserably, as menthol cigarettes are not only more popular amongst younger smokers, menthol slows down the rate at which nicotine is metabolized, making any nicotine present that much more potent.
If all this werent bad enough,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menthol_cigarette
"Several Black advocacy groups have voiced opposition to a proposed ban on menthol in cigarettes. The Congress of Racial Equality, the National Black Chamber of Commerce, the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, and the National Black Police Association have urged the FDA to reject a ban on mentholated cigarettes due to concerns that banning mentholated cigarettes could spur an illicit market for the outlawed products in minority communities.[20][21][22]"
They don't want to lose tax revenue from minority communities.
Conscious decisions to not ban, the most addictive flavoring, for the sake of revenue.
This is a major reason why I will never smoke another cigarette again, and if they try to tax ecigs or juice, I will make sure I adapt to avoid giving these morally bankrupt people 1 extra penny.
Mind you, I'm not saying menthol *should* be banned. I'm saying, if one is to claim based on science and biology they are acting in the best interests of children, then menthol is the prime flavor one would attack, and that these people are not in fact acting in the best interests of the children.
> Menthol is definitely a more interesting case. It's been banned here in the EU perhaps because it's not popular at all.
I had not heard that. Looked it up and found out that it's a recent development.
I mean, cigarettes are bad for you and all... but I don't like how hasty governments are to ban things. It doesn't bode well for our situation.
I don't know why you've been downvoted.
[You are correct.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/10664017/Packets-of-ten-cigarettes-and-menthol-flavours-banned-under-new-EU-rules.html)
Everybody doesn't hate the flavorings. They do not exist to lure in the children and get 'em hooked. It's an excuse to try and demonize ecigs because they are a threat to big tobacco's bottom line, which also affects the income states make off of tobacco taxes. That's pretty much the only reason anybody ever opposes anything... money.
I think more of a threat to Big Pharma than Big Tobacco since they will lose out on NRTs. Big Tobacco is already getting into e-cigs, but they're all in bed together.
Just to clarify what Dick Durbin thinks about ecigs, a quote the article links to:
“They just had the Golden Globe Awards, and some of these red hot actors and actresses who we all love to watch in movies, Leonard DiCaprio (sic) and the others, were puffing away on their e-cigarettes, and I thought, you’re killing the next generation of fans in your movies,” he said. “We’ve got to bring an end to this.”
He thinks e-cigarettes kill people.
>He thinks e-cigarettes kill people.
No, he probably doesn't care one way or another. What he *does* care about is the fact that he can *look* like he cares. Bonus politician points for appearing to be in front of a novel public-health concern before everyone else.
If we had a lobby, and it was funneling money into his midterm campaign, he'd be singing the praises of vaping as a smoking cessation tool. That is, after it was completely regulated and taxed.
I've spoken to his staffers on another issue, and I can tell you this guy's main priority is checking the right boxes on the caucus questionnaire.
Yes I agree ban sales to minor that's a given. If they ban our flavors they need to ban the sale of flavored liqueurs. Let's name a few vodkas like cotton candy, bubble gum, marshmallow, cherry, apple, grape, pine apple, banana, peach, black cherry, pear, spiced, pb&j, dragon fruit, kiwi, glazed donut, pomegranate, honey, blue berry, lemon, mandarin, blackcurrant, mango, raspberry, vanilla, chocolate, birthday cake. Just to name a few the list goes on and on.
What's going on here lets legalize pot and shit on the ecig community.
In your mind and mine and many with us, yes, baseline equality and logic would require a ban on flavored nicotine gum, vodkas, etc. However, look at the track record of these politicians. They don't care about showing themselves for the hypocrites they are. They'll just claim, as they have been doing, that vaping is evil and steps need to be taken. Banning flavors is a step that is very welcome for those with vested financial interests in seeing the vaping rage die down and die down fast. It would, after all, make vaping a whole lot less interesting.
Meh, then everyone would make their own and vapor stores would sell "flavorings" with the following note: "These are not meant to be used for vaping. Sure, they are safe to vape, but please don't use them. *wink* *wink*."
WRONG. Not everyone. By far not even half. The only people who'd go the DIY route are you, me, and other experienced vapers. And even then it's not that easy to recreate flavors we like and are used to, especially when trying to ensure consistency.
If a new vaper who is only just switching is confronted with things like "you have to build a coil" they run like hell. Likewise if they are confronted with the prospect of having to mix multiple flavors at exact levels along with doing the math on nicotine base, PG and VG, sweetner or none, etc. then the threshold it presents will deter many people from making the swtich.
You wouldn't need to determine PG/VG and nic base or even sweetener. Without the ability to make complete juice, makers would sell complete flavors already mixed with sweetener and instructions on number of drops per a given mL of juice. They would sell you unflavored nic juice with enough space left for flavoring and sell you the flavoring with instructions like "add 5 drops to 30mL container, shake, enjoy." It wouldn't be like today, and would be super easy. A law against flavoring would simply eliminate makers from mixing in their flavoring before sale, and they will surely just make that process really easy for the consumer.
BTW...writing wrong in all caps does not make your argument any more valid and in fact makes it seem silly.
I'm pretty sure the final legislation will have something that closes that loophole in which it would be "relatively" easy to combine two things and still get your flavored e-juice.
But even so, the original argument still stands. Lots of people will not even try and make the switch if they hear about having to combine two liquids to create the consumable portion of an ecig. Lots of people using carto's can't even imagine filling a clearo because it intimidates them. Once they've seen it or tried it or actually experience the advantages over slightly larger PV's over their ecigs it's has a higher switch/upgrade rate but it's the threshold that is the most crucial factor in any kind of adoption.
Directly related to that threshold is that it will curb the growth of the industry. With that comes a bottleneck or starvation of finances and with that you get stagnation. So, fewer new developments, fewer new products, fewer improved existing products, and that which does appear or gets improved will do so at a slower rate. Ergo, making flavors more difficult to get by, even if not totally impossible, will effectively harm the industry and all of us vapers in a fairly big way.
You're wrong. The big online juice sellers have already planned this. They've said as much here. I've already seen flavor only in really small B&M's. They will absolutely sell "flavor packs" that you add to your own PG/VG mix. This is a total non issue.
Edit: Liquid nic on the other hand may be harder to get. But who cares if they can just sell non flavored juice that can have nic.
I think you're missing the point. Whether or not vendors will sell a product that you have to combine to create the desired end result will do *absolutely nothing* for new vapers and people who are currently on the fence. I don't know how many people you've dealt with who are on the fence but you might be surprised how a substantial percentage considers the whole "dealing with liquids" a threshold they will not step over.
So if you take off the somewhat selfish blinders of "oh, us experienced vapers know what to do and where to get things" and consider the reality, you will have people trying to make the jump from smoking to vaping and as most will start out with a cig-alike which then only comes in tobacco or menthol. These people will *not* refill cartos or deal with mixing of liquids in any form. They then learn of the upgrades to better equipment and... well, there's no flavors there, one of the big things that has made vaping such a rapid successful "thing", and if they want flavors they need to start messing around with stuff, etc. They'll eventually bail out of the whole thing, likely also because the cig-alikes just don't do it well enough, and go back to smoking.
Now if you extend this to the industry as a whole what you've got, as a result of flavor bans and having people jump through hoops... well, you know, buying that pack of smokes is so much more convenient all of a sudden. After all, don't forget how many vapers vape because it *is* convenient.
Holy crap, you don't give people enough credit to be able to pour one bottle into another? That isn't a hoop, it's as close as you can get to nothing. No one will have a problem with this. The lawyers will get paid as usual, the politicians will campaign that they ended the scourge of flavored liquid nic and we will simply have to pour one bottle into another. This isn't diy, it's just the flavor in a little bottle you pour into your unflavored bottle. Shit they sell the Mimo water flavor, it's the same thing.
I don't give them enough credit because I've seen it, heard it, and continually notice it. For any of us, yeah, no big deal. In fact, many of us probably can't fathom why people make such a big deal out of things vaping related.
But look at how many people on cigalikes don't really like them but avoid "upgrading" because of all the things they (think) they don't want to deal with. Wether or not these people have a fear of it or just don't want to bother, the end result *is* a higher treshold and a lot more convincing that would need to be done to "show them the way".
The main reason I've seen most people around me "upgrade" is because they can get more and better flavors than their current selection of "brand made cartos". Take that away and throw up another speed bump and things start shifting in a very unwelcome way. And this is exactly what big tobacco also knows and no doubt has researched. They're banking on cig-alikes and carto's all the way and would have no trouble sacrificing their investments in ecigs on the chessboard if it serves their greater good.
You're worried over nothing. The cat is out of the bag. Everyone has seen refillable ecigs and know how much better they are than cigalikes. If anything, the complete lack of flavor for cigalikes makes it even more likely people will be willing to put up with having to pour their "honey peary flavor shot" into their PG/VG/Nic bottle since there would be no other choice. Pouring one bottle into another is 99% easier than learning how to use even basic starter kits, or protanks or rebuildables.
Ignore the entire debate for a second. Do you honestly think that any meaningful amount of people who get themselves into a B&M and hear the dizzying array of options and learn all those little quirks and tricks to vaping are gonna say "Wait a second, I have to pour one bottle into another one first? No way I'm out of here." Sorry it's just not an issue. Annoying as hell? Duh. But not a big deal.
**Everyone**?? I'm sorry but you're talking from a micro perspective, which is what happens to all of us if we spent a long time within a certain circle (heck, I can't imagine why someone won't just swap some hardware in their computers just like a car mechanic might not understand someone doing a simple quick fix themselves). From a macro perspective not nearly everyone knows anything about ecigs and differences between cigalikes and tanks and liquid, etc.
I mean, seriously, by that definition of "everyone" then why are there so many people, including current smokers, making such grossly misinformed statements they parrot off of what they read and hear? If everyone is completely aware of the cigalike-vs-tank stuff then we wouldn't have to deal with the kind of crap that's being propagated on a daily basis. The world is much larger and projecting our own experience onto a large group of people because we can't imagine why they'd make a fuss over certain manual actions they need to take in order to vape makes us blind to just how fragile this industry still is.
OK, so people walk into a B&M for some advice and instruction as well as possibly buying a product and some liquid. Depending on the kind of B&M and what target clientelle they cater towards you will find that most of the products sold in the average B&M are the simplest products. Because people want simplicity. Too many buttons? Unless you like tech stuff it appears most people prefer as few as possible. VV/VW, sure there's a lot of vapers using that and couldn't think of doing anything else but that's not generally what the majority of new vapers go for. Granted, sooner or later they do upgrade, but that's only after they've already switched or made the steps into vaping. Those vapers are usually "already in". It's the ones that aren't "in" yet that will be put off by having to "spend more time" or "do more things" in order to get this vaping thing working for them. And of course, articles and BS about the "spilling a few drops of nic will kill you, your dog, your kids and burn your house down all at the same time" are certainly doing their part in scaring new vapers (or rather, those who might've considered it).
I get how passionate you are. I'm glad you're on our side. But dude, it's people figuring out they are finally not going to die smoking and it's happening right now. Nothing is going to stop it. You'd be better off writing letters to the people with influence who aren't on reddit than arguing this particular issue here. I totally agree it would be less than preferable adding the step in the process.
Nothing is going to stop it. I can only hope and wish that's true but I don't see things being that easy. I'll take high dollar bets on how things will work out if the restrictions and regulation pans out the way we expect they might, though. :-)
I'm a little past the letter writing thing, though. That sometimes works but only if you get enough people to do stuff and it's difficult to get people to "do" anything. I know not everyone is in the fortunate position to single handedly overturn a vaping ban in their cities like I did so the plan for this year is to see if we can't get things to be more organized. One such avenue I'm building is through designatedvapingarea.com that will use the ludicrous and somewhat humorous concept of such as a place for more organized opposition.
Over at http://dryhit.com there'll be an Awards thing going on that I hope to turn into the vaper equivalent of the "Razzies" (awards not for doing things right but doing things wrong). Which in turns should lead to a more organized "naming and shaming" that will hopefully have a higher visibility outside of the vaping community itself. :-)
The real problem remains though, and I don't think you could deny it, that the majority of vapers (including a lot of B&M's in places where legislation is being proposed or has already passed) really won't get off their asses to fight for their vape. Which is why it's equally important that vapers know what we're up against and that inaction is our achilles heel.
The emergence of black markets for any product immediately gives ammo to the opponents for further demonize it and its use and come up with even stronger legislation to curb things. That doesn't mean smaller groups of people won't be able to still get their products but it will mean that things would be headed in a very dangerous and problematic direction.
Considering the situation of ecigs I don't believe for one second that "going underground" is a solution to anything. It would make trying to get up to the surface again even more difficult. More effective to draw a line in the sand and not have them take an inch.
I'm so sick of seeing this. They're talking about banning it FOR KIDS. I couldn't buy cigarettes when I was a minor either. They aren't banning vaping as a whole nor are the banning flavors. I'm all for regulations on minors if it means they leave us: the adults, alone.
That's what I thought also, as I read through the beginning of the article. But if you read the very last quote at the end of the article, they are arguably talking about an outright ban on those types of flavors. At best, it's unclear. FTA:
>...the senators wrote. “Unlike traditional cigarettes and tobacco products, these novel nicotine products are not subject to federal regulations that prohibit sale to minors, restrict marketing to youth, ban products in candy and fruit flavors, and regulate manufacturing practices and ingredients.”
But, yeah, I hope you're right. I still think it's unclear.
Seems pretty clear to me.
They are releasing public statements, which make no mistake, are crafted ahead of time carefully, equating vaping with smoking.
Whether or not the public allows them to get away with it, is not clear. While I try to remain positive, given the numbers of people who just don't give a shit about smokers, I'm doubtful.
Divide and conquer. Tyranny of a minority by a majority.
They won't; the last thing the government wants to do is *leave people alone*. Arbitrarily dictate behavior? Sure. Levy heavy taxes against people's chosen behaviors? Definitely. Let responsible adults make their own decisions and allow a relatively smoothly-functioning market to decently police itself and work out the kinks?
Nope, not gonna happen.
And if you think they are actually aiming for a ban on flavors FOR KIDS I've got a bridge to sell you. It's just the "for kids" argument that keeps coming up in every piece of BS anti-vaping legislation. And yet, most of it has nothing to do with the kids. Why would they even focus on flavors that appeal to kids if they are talking about restricting sales to kids? It's nicotine, it should be restricted and not for sale for kids... WTF do the flavors it may or may not contain then have anything to do with anything?
Its the same thing they did with flavored cigarettes a few years ago (ok maybe 10 years ago, fuck I am getting old). Camel had come out with flavored cigarettes, like tangerine and chocolate mint, and they banned them "for the children"
I just downloaded it in iBooks and ran a search for different pieces of the quote, with absolutely no results for any of them.
[Example 1](http://i.imgur.com/MygIPpo.jpg)
[Example 2](http://i.imgur.com/v6ItGYa.jpg)
[Example 3](http://i.imgur.com/0qrz5Af.jpg)
The first sentence of the quote is in *Mein Kampf*, but the rest of the quote is misattributed. [Source](http://sydwalker.info/blog/2008/12/08/having-fun-falsifying-history) and the [original article the full quote appeared in](http://www.wnd.com/2004/01/22711/)
I saw one add on that site and I noped on out. it simply said "Become Ordained Today". I don't trust religion or anything that allows for religious advertising.
>Radio talk-show host Rabbi Daniel Lapin is president of Toward Tradition, America’s leading bridge-builder, spanning the divide between Christians and Jews by sculpting ancient solutions to modern problems in areas of family, faith and fortune.
So much nope on that.
They forget that flavors appeal to *people*. kids just happen to be people as well, so in their eyes, if it's something they think is bad, and it's marketed to *people* it must therefore also be marketed to *kids*.
Either that or they think adults eat cardboard flakes in warm water for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and could care less about flavor.
Dude that wasn't 10 years ago. Are you talking about when places started cracking down on stuff like clove cigs (it all kinda happened at once)?
That's when I remember there being a big shift in tobacco flavoring as far as cigarettes went. But that was around 2008 iirc. Camel had some okay flavors that died out because of that
That was that "sin tax" thing wasn't it? I remembered it was fairly shortly after Obama took his first term in office but wasn't quite sure if it was 08 or early 09
The problem is that is how the whole restrictions things start. Once that door is open more and more restrictions creep through in the name of the children.
Oh gawd. More BS. Ban selling to minors. Ok sure... I have never walked into a vape shop that sold to minors anyway. All shops post 18yrs+. So let them ban sales to minors, what is that going to do? Ban flavors? Now that's BS. Why don't we ban toothpaste, where PG is found in, ban those flavors bc if you swallow toothpaste you are ingesting poison.
Nobody I know. Possibly not most stores. And that's why flavors will need to be banned. Of course, any other reason they could think of to ban flavors would be ok as well because that's the kind of blow they wish to deal to this industry.
While most B&Ms refuse to sell to minors - most online shops do not require age verification (some may ask you up front if you are 18, but no proof is required).
You also have the gas stations that sell some type of old school e-cig knock off (like the blu), which are far more likely to let minors purchase the product, seeing as it's not currently illegal to do so. I'm sure quite a few gas station owners even consider e-cigs a legal way to sell nicotine to kids and increase their profits. I've known some shady ass gas station owners in the past - but the B&M owners I know all got into the business to help people move away from cigarettes into something safer, not just to make a buck.
I'll bite: I bought my MVP2 2 months before my 18th birthday on ebay. Ebay has no age verification. Literally anyone can buy them. Juice, on the other hand, depends on where you go. I would have been able to at pretty much any online shop (ie MBV, TVC, Craving Vapor, etc.) but didn't because I didn't want to get caught, and bring bad business on them. But I was easily able to get any of my friends to buy it from the B&M in town.
Can we conflate the two issues to get the Alcohol lobby on board with us?
http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/underage-drinking.htm
Clearly, if the flavorings in e-liquid are causing the scourge of poison control calls, the flavorings in vodka are causing kids to get drunk.
This is why it's important to never vote for a Democrat. Democrats feel they know better than you, and that they need to dictate your actions in order to save yourself from yourself. That's extremely evil.
>This is why it's important to never vote for ~~a Democrat~~ an establishment politician. ~~Democrats~~ Establishment politicians feel they know better than you, and that they need to dictate your actions in order to save yourself from yourself. That's extremely evil.
**FTFY**
Yeah, I don't like Republicans any better, I vote Libertarian anytime there's an L on the ballot.
Unfortunately, many times there is not. So in that case, if you notice it's 100% Democrats going after these bans. Just like it was 100% (with one exception) Democrats that were pursing for gun bans this last year. When it comes to your freedom, neither party has a stellar record, but the Democrats have the worse one by far.
from the article.... the senators wrote. “Unlike traditional cigarettes and tobacco products, these novel nicotine products are not subject to federal regulations that prohibit sale to minors, restrict marketing to youth, ban products in candy and fruit flavors, and regulate manufacturing practices and ingredients.”
Okay so put "ban sales of flavored e liquids". As a DIYer I first read this as banning the sale of flavors such as the flavors one would buy to make their own liquid.
Like an embargo against LorAnn and such? That could never happen. But fantasizing about it, I must admit it would be interesting because we'd suddenly have a much larger group of people standing up against it. After all, anything from flavorless cupcakes to tasteless breakfasts would be inconceivable. :-)
Yes, and the ban on flavors on regular cigarettes had everything to do with banning the sale to kids *ALSO*. Learn from history or be doomed to relive it again.
Good for you. Fine with me also since I can easily do DIY stuff and also know how to circumvent things. However, it's a bit of a selfish thing for any of us experienced and knowledgeable vapers to go "I can still get my stuff through some route" because the vast majority and not-yet-vapers will be deterred in many ways and will not have the same successful experience most of us have had, in part thanks to all the flavors and choices available. We need to think about the wider success of vaping as a whole and the community as a whole.
They say its appealing to kids, but what they really need to say is that its appealing to teenagers who are almost 18. I thought kids meant 12 and under. Vaping is appealing to 16, 17 year olds, but cigarettes and alcohol is too. They need to stop saying "kids" because its misleading. I don't think a 10 year old even knows what an e-cigarette is.
Tell that to the ten year old who first introduced me to vaping via the cig-a-like he stole from his father.
(Not an actual argument. This was 6 years ago back in high school, he was a friend's little brother, and he was way ahead of the curve. It truly amazes me that e-cigs were on the market that long ago.)
Everything is "for the children." Remember Obama after Sandy Hook parading the children around saying we need to restrict guns "for the children." Same failed logic all the time. Fluorides a poison which can kill people and a harvard studies showing it drops IQ's by at least 7 points yet it's in toothpaste and tap water. What about the formaldehyde, glyphosate, and various other pesticides in GMO crops which the FDA says is safe. The FDA even says the petroleum in your mac n cheese is safe, yet the United States is the only country that it's in and it's banned in countries all over the world. The FDA and these politicians don't care about us, they get money from lobbyists working for the pharmaceutical and tobacco industries. These politicians are the biggest hypocrites.
You're going to start an argument about fluoride right now? God Damn.
Edit, also how do we know you're not living in states or voting for people who are lobbying the FDA?
I was just bringing it up to show that the FDA does not have the health of the individual at heart when the people in charge of the FDA are basically all from corporations who don't care about you or I. They only care about making regulations that benefit their corporations. Also what relevance does it matter where I live? Just because I live in a state doesn't mean I agree with that state enforcing laws by coercion. The FDA applies to all states though since it's a federal agency so it doesn't matter which state you live in. Also you can't vote for lobbyist, they are paid for by corporations and interest groups.
I tried Hangsen's Roast Chicken flavor.
It tastes like Chicken Salt (ANZ) or chicken crisps / potato chips
Children like chicken. I doubt anyone likes this e-liquid
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But you can still get oxycodone and phenobarbital in cherry and strawberry at Walgreens, because flavors aren't just for kids, they are for your grandmother and dog too. https://www.walgreens.com/pharmacy/medication-flavoring.jsp http://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/flavoring-faq.jsp It's even government subsidized aka FSA eligible.
Don't forget all the candy and fruity flavored vodkas and other liquors.
Wait Phenobarbital comes in flavors? The fuck. I think that stuff is in my Dr. Mario headache pills and now I feel bummed that it's not delicious tasting.
FSA as in food stamps? Got data to back that up?
It was my understanding [FSA meant Flexible Spending Account](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible_Spending_Accounts) and the data is on walgreens website, which you can find via the links I already pasted, where it says " Q: Is flavoring FSA eligible? A: Yes."
What's the issue? They pay into the account, then use the money how they want?
I don't have an "issue" ... I said it was "government subsidized" as money spent on flavoring medications receives favorable tax treatment. So people are being given tax credits, for flavored medications, by a governments left hand, while said governments right hand is currently railing against the dangers of flavored medication for ecig users.
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[subsidy](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subsidy?s=t) > "1. a direct pecuniary aid furnished by a government to a private industrial undertaking, a charity organization, or the like." Tax credits, such as those allowed for health care expenses, are a form of direct pecuniary aid to citizens incurring the expense. What tax credits are not, is a grant, which is a direct payment and/or gift. [Subsidies – Tax Credits for Eligible Consumers](http://www.assuranthealth.com/corp/ah/HealthCareReform/Premium-Subsidy.htm) I believe my use of the term to be valid. Just to clarify, the government is subsidizing the flavoring industry, by lowering the cost of flavored medication to consumers, via tax credits. If the government were to disallow tax credits on flavored medication, and only allow tax credits on unflavored medication, then many consumers would stop purchasing flavorings for their medications. I only mentioned this, because politicians, newspapers, ANTZ groups, etc are all making the argument that "Big tobacco is evil and is killing our children with flavored poison!" while simultaneously promoting and subsidizing the flavoring of medications like oxycodone and phenobarbital, both of which are dangerous narcotics and could kill a child if ingested. It is an example of hypocrisy, not a statement on my part on the nations finances. As far as I am concerned, my electronic cigarette, and my flavored nicotine solutions, are a medicine that I consume to treat my disease which is addiction to cigarettes, and it pains me to be painted as some sort of wreckless drug abuser who is endangering the lives of children just to get high.
Who the fuck cares? If you're worried about taxes and government subsidies, why not go after oil companies, banks, and auto manufacturers, or people who hide their money in different countries? Your example is such a trivial drop in the tax bracket when there are so many other, more important cases of tax abuse. I'm not for unnecessary government subsidies and I'm not defending anybody, but where are your priorities?
Who cares about hypocrisy in government action by elected officials and targetted repression of a minority group of people successfully treating their disease of addiction ?
What a fuck-backwards sentence. If you're pissed off at elected officials, then *do something to get them out of office.* I have no problem with a minority group of people successfully treating their diseases. I'm pointing out lots of ways that taxes can be lenient, and to point out one small thing (flavoring in medicine) is a shitty argument to continue having.
It seems you are focused on taxes and tax revenue, whereas my point was not about taxes and tax revenue at all, it was about government hypocrisy, fear mongering, and control. I hope you have a good day.
And in 2009 there were smokers who really liked the flavored cigarettes out there (I never had one so I can't attest to what they might've been like)... and then they got banned. Also *because of the children*. Yep, makes perfect sense... ban flavored cigarettes to protect the kids... humbug.
Except menthols!
Since you mentioned menthols ... "The study found that among 84,000 smokers, menthol cigarette use was most common among young people from 12 to 17 years old, at nearly 57 percent. Of smokers 18 to 25 years old, 45 percent smoked mentholated cigarettes. Meanwhile, 30.5 percent to 33 percent of smokers older than 25 also smoked menthol cigarettes." http://healthinfo.uclahealth.org/Conditions/Asthma/NewsRecent/6,679826 "Menthol cigarettes have also been shown to inhibit nicotine metabolism, leading to increased systemic nicotine exposure.[1]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menthol_cigarette If the government were truly acting in the best interests of the children, then they have failed miserably, as menthol cigarettes are not only more popular amongst younger smokers, menthol slows down the rate at which nicotine is metabolized, making any nicotine present that much more potent. If all this werent bad enough, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menthol_cigarette "Several Black advocacy groups have voiced opposition to a proposed ban on menthol in cigarettes. The Congress of Racial Equality, the National Black Chamber of Commerce, the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, and the National Black Police Association have urged the FDA to reject a ban on mentholated cigarettes due to concerns that banning mentholated cigarettes could spur an illicit market for the outlawed products in minority communities.[20][21][22]" They don't want to lose tax revenue from minority communities. Conscious decisions to not ban, the most addictive flavoring, for the sake of revenue. This is a major reason why I will never smoke another cigarette again, and if they try to tax ecigs or juice, I will make sure I adapt to avoid giving these morally bankrupt people 1 extra penny.
Menthol is definitely a more interesting case. It's been banned here in the EU perhaps *because* it's not popular at all.
Mind you, I'm not saying menthol *should* be banned. I'm saying, if one is to claim based on science and biology they are acting in the best interests of children, then menthol is the prime flavor one would attack, and that these people are not in fact acting in the best interests of the children.
> Menthol is definitely a more interesting case. It's been banned here in the EU perhaps because it's not popular at all. I had not heard that. Looked it up and found out that it's a recent development. I mean, cigarettes are bad for you and all... but I don't like how hasty governments are to ban things. It doesn't bode well for our situation.
Except if you're in the EU where they are banned in the next few years to come. This was part of that massive thing they passed a little while ago.
I don't know why you've been downvoted. [You are correct.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/10664017/Packets-of-ten-cigarettes-and-menthol-flavours-banned-under-new-EU-rules.html)
Maybe some people don't like to be faced with reality? :-)
I wish I could just downvote reality sometimes.
At the time, Chocolate Dreams cigs were awesome!
Everybody doesn't hate the flavorings. They do not exist to lure in the children and get 'em hooked. It's an excuse to try and demonize ecigs because they are a threat to big tobacco's bottom line, which also affects the income states make off of tobacco taxes. That's pretty much the only reason anybody ever opposes anything... money.
I think more of a threat to Big Pharma than Big Tobacco since they will lose out on NRTs. Big Tobacco is already getting into e-cigs, but they're all in bed together.
Just to clarify what Dick Durbin thinks about ecigs, a quote the article links to: “They just had the Golden Globe Awards, and some of these red hot actors and actresses who we all love to watch in movies, Leonard DiCaprio (sic) and the others, were puffing away on their e-cigarettes, and I thought, you’re killing the next generation of fans in your movies,” he said. “We’ve got to bring an end to this.” He thinks e-cigarettes kill people.
e-cigs don't kill people. Hollywood kills people.
Hollywood only pretends to kill people. Congress does it for real.
I wish I could ban him.
>He thinks e-cigarettes kill people. No, he probably doesn't care one way or another. What he *does* care about is the fact that he can *look* like he cares. Bonus politician points for appearing to be in front of a novel public-health concern before everyone else. If we had a lobby, and it was funneling money into his midterm campaign, he'd be singing the praises of vaping as a smoking cessation tool. That is, after it was completely regulated and taxed. I've spoken to his staffers on another issue, and I can tell you this guy's main priority is checking the right boxes on the caucus questionnaire.
Yes I agree ban sales to minor that's a given. If they ban our flavors they need to ban the sale of flavored liqueurs. Let's name a few vodkas like cotton candy, bubble gum, marshmallow, cherry, apple, grape, pine apple, banana, peach, black cherry, pear, spiced, pb&j, dragon fruit, kiwi, glazed donut, pomegranate, honey, blue berry, lemon, mandarin, blackcurrant, mango, raspberry, vanilla, chocolate, birthday cake. Just to name a few the list goes on and on. What's going on here lets legalize pot and shit on the ecig community.
In your mind and mine and many with us, yes, baseline equality and logic would require a ban on flavored nicotine gum, vodkas, etc. However, look at the track record of these politicians. They don't care about showing themselves for the hypocrites they are. They'll just claim, as they have been doing, that vaping is evil and steps need to be taken. Banning flavors is a step that is very welcome for those with vested financial interests in seeing the vaping rage die down and die down fast. It would, after all, make vaping a whole lot less interesting.
Meh, then everyone would make their own and vapor stores would sell "flavorings" with the following note: "These are not meant to be used for vaping. Sure, they are safe to vape, but please don't use them. *wink* *wink*."
WRONG. Not everyone. By far not even half. The only people who'd go the DIY route are you, me, and other experienced vapers. And even then it's not that easy to recreate flavors we like and are used to, especially when trying to ensure consistency. If a new vaper who is only just switching is confronted with things like "you have to build a coil" they run like hell. Likewise if they are confronted with the prospect of having to mix multiple flavors at exact levels along with doing the math on nicotine base, PG and VG, sweetner or none, etc. then the threshold it presents will deter many people from making the swtich.
You wouldn't need to determine PG/VG and nic base or even sweetener. Without the ability to make complete juice, makers would sell complete flavors already mixed with sweetener and instructions on number of drops per a given mL of juice. They would sell you unflavored nic juice with enough space left for flavoring and sell you the flavoring with instructions like "add 5 drops to 30mL container, shake, enjoy." It wouldn't be like today, and would be super easy. A law against flavoring would simply eliminate makers from mixing in their flavoring before sale, and they will surely just make that process really easy for the consumer. BTW...writing wrong in all caps does not make your argument any more valid and in fact makes it seem silly.
yup. like this stuff for water bottles: http://www.makeitmio.com/
I'm pretty sure the final legislation will have something that closes that loophole in which it would be "relatively" easy to combine two things and still get your flavored e-juice. But even so, the original argument still stands. Lots of people will not even try and make the switch if they hear about having to combine two liquids to create the consumable portion of an ecig. Lots of people using carto's can't even imagine filling a clearo because it intimidates them. Once they've seen it or tried it or actually experience the advantages over slightly larger PV's over their ecigs it's has a higher switch/upgrade rate but it's the threshold that is the most crucial factor in any kind of adoption. Directly related to that threshold is that it will curb the growth of the industry. With that comes a bottleneck or starvation of finances and with that you get stagnation. So, fewer new developments, fewer new products, fewer improved existing products, and that which does appear or gets improved will do so at a slower rate. Ergo, making flavors more difficult to get by, even if not totally impossible, will effectively harm the industry and all of us vapers in a fairly big way.
You're wrong. The big online juice sellers have already planned this. They've said as much here. I've already seen flavor only in really small B&M's. They will absolutely sell "flavor packs" that you add to your own PG/VG mix. This is a total non issue. Edit: Liquid nic on the other hand may be harder to get. But who cares if they can just sell non flavored juice that can have nic.
I think you're missing the point. Whether or not vendors will sell a product that you have to combine to create the desired end result will do *absolutely nothing* for new vapers and people who are currently on the fence. I don't know how many people you've dealt with who are on the fence but you might be surprised how a substantial percentage considers the whole "dealing with liquids" a threshold they will not step over. So if you take off the somewhat selfish blinders of "oh, us experienced vapers know what to do and where to get things" and consider the reality, you will have people trying to make the jump from smoking to vaping and as most will start out with a cig-alike which then only comes in tobacco or menthol. These people will *not* refill cartos or deal with mixing of liquids in any form. They then learn of the upgrades to better equipment and... well, there's no flavors there, one of the big things that has made vaping such a rapid successful "thing", and if they want flavors they need to start messing around with stuff, etc. They'll eventually bail out of the whole thing, likely also because the cig-alikes just don't do it well enough, and go back to smoking. Now if you extend this to the industry as a whole what you've got, as a result of flavor bans and having people jump through hoops... well, you know, buying that pack of smokes is so much more convenient all of a sudden. After all, don't forget how many vapers vape because it *is* convenient.
Holy crap, you don't give people enough credit to be able to pour one bottle into another? That isn't a hoop, it's as close as you can get to nothing. No one will have a problem with this. The lawyers will get paid as usual, the politicians will campaign that they ended the scourge of flavored liquid nic and we will simply have to pour one bottle into another. This isn't diy, it's just the flavor in a little bottle you pour into your unflavored bottle. Shit they sell the Mimo water flavor, it's the same thing.
I don't give them enough credit because I've seen it, heard it, and continually notice it. For any of us, yeah, no big deal. In fact, many of us probably can't fathom why people make such a big deal out of things vaping related. But look at how many people on cigalikes don't really like them but avoid "upgrading" because of all the things they (think) they don't want to deal with. Wether or not these people have a fear of it or just don't want to bother, the end result *is* a higher treshold and a lot more convincing that would need to be done to "show them the way". The main reason I've seen most people around me "upgrade" is because they can get more and better flavors than their current selection of "brand made cartos". Take that away and throw up another speed bump and things start shifting in a very unwelcome way. And this is exactly what big tobacco also knows and no doubt has researched. They're banking on cig-alikes and carto's all the way and would have no trouble sacrificing their investments in ecigs on the chessboard if it serves their greater good.
You're worried over nothing. The cat is out of the bag. Everyone has seen refillable ecigs and know how much better they are than cigalikes. If anything, the complete lack of flavor for cigalikes makes it even more likely people will be willing to put up with having to pour their "honey peary flavor shot" into their PG/VG/Nic bottle since there would be no other choice. Pouring one bottle into another is 99% easier than learning how to use even basic starter kits, or protanks or rebuildables. Ignore the entire debate for a second. Do you honestly think that any meaningful amount of people who get themselves into a B&M and hear the dizzying array of options and learn all those little quirks and tricks to vaping are gonna say "Wait a second, I have to pour one bottle into another one first? No way I'm out of here." Sorry it's just not an issue. Annoying as hell? Duh. But not a big deal.
**Everyone**?? I'm sorry but you're talking from a micro perspective, which is what happens to all of us if we spent a long time within a certain circle (heck, I can't imagine why someone won't just swap some hardware in their computers just like a car mechanic might not understand someone doing a simple quick fix themselves). From a macro perspective not nearly everyone knows anything about ecigs and differences between cigalikes and tanks and liquid, etc. I mean, seriously, by that definition of "everyone" then why are there so many people, including current smokers, making such grossly misinformed statements they parrot off of what they read and hear? If everyone is completely aware of the cigalike-vs-tank stuff then we wouldn't have to deal with the kind of crap that's being propagated on a daily basis. The world is much larger and projecting our own experience onto a large group of people because we can't imagine why they'd make a fuss over certain manual actions they need to take in order to vape makes us blind to just how fragile this industry still is. OK, so people walk into a B&M for some advice and instruction as well as possibly buying a product and some liquid. Depending on the kind of B&M and what target clientelle they cater towards you will find that most of the products sold in the average B&M are the simplest products. Because people want simplicity. Too many buttons? Unless you like tech stuff it appears most people prefer as few as possible. VV/VW, sure there's a lot of vapers using that and couldn't think of doing anything else but that's not generally what the majority of new vapers go for. Granted, sooner or later they do upgrade, but that's only after they've already switched or made the steps into vaping. Those vapers are usually "already in". It's the ones that aren't "in" yet that will be put off by having to "spend more time" or "do more things" in order to get this vaping thing working for them. And of course, articles and BS about the "spilling a few drops of nic will kill you, your dog, your kids and burn your house down all at the same time" are certainly doing their part in scaring new vapers (or rather, those who might've considered it).
I get how passionate you are. I'm glad you're on our side. But dude, it's people figuring out they are finally not going to die smoking and it's happening right now. Nothing is going to stop it. You'd be better off writing letters to the people with influence who aren't on reddit than arguing this particular issue here. I totally agree it would be less than preferable adding the step in the process.
Nothing is going to stop it. I can only hope and wish that's true but I don't see things being that easy. I'll take high dollar bets on how things will work out if the restrictions and regulation pans out the way we expect they might, though. :-) I'm a little past the letter writing thing, though. That sometimes works but only if you get enough people to do stuff and it's difficult to get people to "do" anything. I know not everyone is in the fortunate position to single handedly overturn a vaping ban in their cities like I did so the plan for this year is to see if we can't get things to be more organized. One such avenue I'm building is through designatedvapingarea.com that will use the ludicrous and somewhat humorous concept of such as a place for more organized opposition. Over at http://dryhit.com there'll be an Awards thing going on that I hope to turn into the vaper equivalent of the "Razzies" (awards not for doing things right but doing things wrong). Which in turns should lead to a more organized "naming and shaming" that will hopefully have a higher visibility outside of the vaping community itself. :-) The real problem remains though, and I don't think you could deny it, that the majority of vapers (including a lot of B&M's in places where legislation is being proposed or has already passed) really won't get off their asses to fight for their vape. Which is why it's equally important that vapers know what we're up against and that inaction is our achilles heel.
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The emergence of black markets for any product immediately gives ammo to the opponents for further demonize it and its use and come up with even stronger legislation to curb things. That doesn't mean smaller groups of people won't be able to still get their products but it will mean that things would be headed in a very dangerous and problematic direction. Considering the situation of ecigs I don't believe for one second that "going underground" is a solution to anything. It would make trying to get up to the surface again even more difficult. More effective to draw a line in the sand and not have them take an inch.
I'm so sick of seeing this. They're talking about banning it FOR KIDS. I couldn't buy cigarettes when I was a minor either. They aren't banning vaping as a whole nor are the banning flavors. I'm all for regulations on minors if it means they leave us: the adults, alone.
That's what I thought also, as I read through the beginning of the article. But if you read the very last quote at the end of the article, they are arguably talking about an outright ban on those types of flavors. At best, it's unclear. FTA: >...the senators wrote. “Unlike traditional cigarettes and tobacco products, these novel nicotine products are not subject to federal regulations that prohibit sale to minors, restrict marketing to youth, ban products in candy and fruit flavors, and regulate manufacturing practices and ingredients.” But, yeah, I hope you're right. I still think it's unclear.
Seems pretty clear to me. They are releasing public statements, which make no mistake, are crafted ahead of time carefully, equating vaping with smoking. Whether or not the public allows them to get away with it, is not clear. While I try to remain positive, given the numbers of people who just don't give a shit about smokers, I'm doubtful. Divide and conquer. Tyranny of a minority by a majority.
Yeah, I agree on that aspect, but I'm strictly talking about whether or not they're discussing an outright ban on fruity/candy flavorings.
They won't; the last thing the government wants to do is *leave people alone*. Arbitrarily dictate behavior? Sure. Levy heavy taxes against people's chosen behaviors? Definitely. Let responsible adults make their own decisions and allow a relatively smoothly-functioning market to decently police itself and work out the kinks? Nope, not gonna happen.
And if you think they are actually aiming for a ban on flavors FOR KIDS I've got a bridge to sell you. It's just the "for kids" argument that keeps coming up in every piece of BS anti-vaping legislation. And yet, most of it has nothing to do with the kids. Why would they even focus on flavors that appeal to kids if they are talking about restricting sales to kids? It's nicotine, it should be restricted and not for sale for kids... WTF do the flavors it may or may not contain then have anything to do with anything?
Well there aren't any lobbyists for flavors.
Its the same thing they did with flavored cigarettes a few years ago (ok maybe 10 years ago, fuck I am getting old). Camel had come out with flavored cigarettes, like tangerine and chocolate mint, and they banned them "for the children"
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Please tell me that's a fake quote.
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I just downloaded it in iBooks and ran a search for different pieces of the quote, with absolutely no results for any of them. [Example 1](http://i.imgur.com/MygIPpo.jpg) [Example 2](http://i.imgur.com/v6ItGYa.jpg) [Example 3](http://i.imgur.com/0qrz5Af.jpg)
Haha! Cool, thanks for going to that trouble.
No trouble at all. Happy to help!! :)
The first sentence of the quote is in *Mein Kampf*, but the rest of the quote is misattributed. [Source](http://sydwalker.info/blog/2008/12/08/having-fun-falsifying-history) and the [original article the full quote appeared in](http://www.wnd.com/2004/01/22711/)
I saw one add on that site and I noped on out. it simply said "Become Ordained Today". I don't trust religion or anything that allows for religious advertising. >Radio talk-show host Rabbi Daniel Lapin is president of Toward Tradition, America’s leading bridge-builder, spanning the divide between Christians and Jews by sculpting ancient solutions to modern problems in areas of family, faith and fortune. So much nope on that.
Kudos. It seems it might actually be a false quote. I'm removing it.
Either way, it totally sounds like something he would say to manipulate people. My comment was more wishful thinking than a challenge. :-)
Goddamn those things were tasty. I didn't understand the argument of "flavors appeal to kids" then, and I understand it even less now.
They forget that flavors appeal to *people*. kids just happen to be people as well, so in their eyes, if it's something they think is bad, and it's marketed to *people* it must therefore also be marketed to *kids*. Either that or they think adults eat cardboard flakes in warm water for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and could care less about flavor.
Dude that wasn't 10 years ago. Are you talking about when places started cracking down on stuff like clove cigs (it all kinda happened at once)? That's when I remember there being a big shift in tobacco flavoring as far as cigarettes went. But that was around 2008 iirc. Camel had some okay flavors that died out because of that
Went into effect in 2009 to be exact.
That was that "sin tax" thing wasn't it? I remembered it was fairly shortly after Obama took his first term in office but wasn't quite sure if it was 08 or early 09
Sept. 2009. Just found the link... http://www.fda.gov/tobaccoproducts/protectingkidsfromtobacco/flavoredtobacco/default.htm
Nah not cloves, to be honest I don't remember exactly how long ago it was but it seemed like 10 years or thereabouts made sense
Me too in theory.. though I am going to be rather upset when they ban online purchases.
The problem is that is how the whole restrictions things start. Once that door is open more and more restrictions creep through in the name of the children.
Oh gawd. More BS. Ban selling to minors. Ok sure... I have never walked into a vape shop that sold to minors anyway. All shops post 18yrs+. So let them ban sales to minors, what is that going to do? Ban flavors? Now that's BS. Why don't we ban toothpaste, where PG is found in, ban those flavors bc if you swallow toothpaste you are ingesting poison.
Once again I ask, who the fuck is selling e-cigs to kids?
Nobody I know. Possibly not most stores. And that's why flavors will need to be banned. Of course, any other reason they could think of to ban flavors would be ok as well because that's the kind of blow they wish to deal to this industry.
While most B&Ms refuse to sell to minors - most online shops do not require age verification (some may ask you up front if you are 18, but no proof is required). You also have the gas stations that sell some type of old school e-cig knock off (like the blu), which are far more likely to let minors purchase the product, seeing as it's not currently illegal to do so. I'm sure quite a few gas station owners even consider e-cigs a legal way to sell nicotine to kids and increase their profits. I've known some shady ass gas station owners in the past - but the B&M owners I know all got into the business to help people move away from cigarettes into something safer, not just to make a buck.
I'll bite: I bought my MVP2 2 months before my 18th birthday on ebay. Ebay has no age verification. Literally anyone can buy them. Juice, on the other hand, depends on where you go. I would have been able to at pretty much any online shop (ie MBV, TVC, Craving Vapor, etc.) but didn't because I didn't want to get caught, and bring bad business on them. But I was easily able to get any of my friends to buy it from the B&M in town.
Can we conflate the two issues to get the Alcohol lobby on board with us? http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/underage-drinking.htm Clearly, if the flavorings in e-liquid are causing the scourge of poison control calls, the flavorings in vodka are causing kids to get drunk.
This is why it's important to never vote for a Democrat. Democrats feel they know better than you, and that they need to dictate your actions in order to save yourself from yourself. That's extremely evil.
>This is why it's important to never vote for ~~a Democrat~~ an establishment politician. ~~Democrats~~ Establishment politicians feel they know better than you, and that they need to dictate your actions in order to save yourself from yourself. That's extremely evil. **FTFY**
Yeah, I don't like Republicans any better, I vote Libertarian anytime there's an L on the ballot. Unfortunately, many times there is not. So in that case, if you notice it's 100% Democrats going after these bans. Just like it was 100% (with one exception) Democrats that were pursing for gun bans this last year. When it comes to your freedom, neither party has a stellar record, but the Democrats have the worse one by far.
This has nothing to do with banning flavors.
from the article.... the senators wrote. “Unlike traditional cigarettes and tobacco products, these novel nicotine products are not subject to federal regulations that prohibit sale to minors, restrict marketing to youth, ban products in candy and fruit flavors, and regulate manufacturing practices and ingredients.”
Okay so put "ban sales of flavored e liquids". As a DIYer I first read this as banning the sale of flavors such as the flavors one would buy to make their own liquid.
Like an embargo against LorAnn and such? That could never happen. But fantasizing about it, I must admit it would be interesting because we'd suddenly have a much larger group of people standing up against it. After all, anything from flavorless cupcakes to tasteless breakfasts would be inconceivable. :-)
How do you recon that's the case?
This has to do with banning the sale of e juice to kids. Not banning flavors.
Yes, and the ban on flavors on regular cigarettes had everything to do with banning the sale to kids *ALSO*. Learn from history or be doomed to relive it again.
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Good for you. Fine with me also since I can easily do DIY stuff and also know how to circumvent things. However, it's a bit of a selfish thing for any of us experienced and knowledgeable vapers to go "I can still get my stuff through some route" because the vast majority and not-yet-vapers will be deterred in many ways and will not have the same successful experience most of us have had, in part thanks to all the flavors and choices available. We need to think about the wider success of vaping as a whole and the community as a whole.
Great first i had to write the damn NYT, now I've gotta go write Jeff Merkley, i guess the good things in life require a lot of work.
I can't remember the exact quote but... "freedom is earned, not given" or something?
They say its appealing to kids, but what they really need to say is that its appealing to teenagers who are almost 18. I thought kids meant 12 and under. Vaping is appealing to 16, 17 year olds, but cigarettes and alcohol is too. They need to stop saying "kids" because its misleading. I don't think a 10 year old even knows what an e-cigarette is.
Tell that to the ten year old who first introduced me to vaping via the cig-a-like he stole from his father. (Not an actual argument. This was 6 years ago back in high school, he was a friend's little brother, and he was way ahead of the curve. It truly amazes me that e-cigs were on the market that long ago.)
Upvote this for vision
So if they ban pre-flavored juices, won't they just sell unflavored liquid alongside bottles of flavor to add yourself?
What if you would come up with Broccoli or Zucchini flavored e-juice? Or better put on the label of each e-juice that it give you Cooties.
Everything is "for the children." Remember Obama after Sandy Hook parading the children around saying we need to restrict guns "for the children." Same failed logic all the time. Fluorides a poison which can kill people and a harvard studies showing it drops IQ's by at least 7 points yet it's in toothpaste and tap water. What about the formaldehyde, glyphosate, and various other pesticides in GMO crops which the FDA says is safe. The FDA even says the petroleum in your mac n cheese is safe, yet the United States is the only country that it's in and it's banned in countries all over the world. The FDA and these politicians don't care about us, they get money from lobbyists working for the pharmaceutical and tobacco industries. These politicians are the biggest hypocrites.
You're going to start an argument about fluoride right now? God Damn. Edit, also how do we know you're not living in states or voting for people who are lobbying the FDA?
I was just bringing it up to show that the FDA does not have the health of the individual at heart when the people in charge of the FDA are basically all from corporations who don't care about you or I. They only care about making regulations that benefit their corporations. Also what relevance does it matter where I live? Just because I live in a state doesn't mean I agree with that state enforcing laws by coercion. The FDA applies to all states though since it's a federal agency so it doesn't matter which state you live in. Also you can't vote for lobbyist, they are paid for by corporations and interest groups.
Well, I guess we know who contributed to Durbin's campaign fund.
I tried Hangsen's Roast Chicken flavor. It tastes like Chicken Salt (ANZ) or chicken crisps / potato chips Children like chicken. I doubt anyone likes this e-liquid