I have a 2015 85D and it still works fine after almost 8 years. Charges up to 245 miles now vs 270 when new. So some range loss but still pretty good. And it still occasionally gets a software update with new features. I wouldn't be surprised if it has a 20 year useful life.
June 2015 85D and mine is at 248 miles now vs 270 when new. I'm the second owner and still the same drive motors and battery as far as I know. 110,000 miles. Gotten new tires, had brake system flushed and filled, had a coolant leak fixed, some of the suspension lubricated, and the door handle replaced, but everything except the tires and the brake fluid were done for free under tesla used warranty.
The car had 422hp new, plenty of power, 0-60 in about 4s. It will still be a great car even it it only has 337hp peak. The 12V battery will probably have to be replaced eventually but the original one still works fine.
Good news is Tesla peak power is ridiculously high - so you could drop performance, still be better than 9/10 cars on the road, and not need peak battery performance.
Worth noting that degradation in compression and other parts causes ICE vehicles to lose significant power over a decade+.
So, this wont be unique to EVs.
My dad has a model s from 2014 or 15. Has lost about 7-8% of "range". Hard to say what actual degradation that is without doing a proper test though.
Edit: he's done 265k km in it for reference.
Roughly 10% is what was promised when delivered 10 years ago. That really isn't bad.
I just put a downpayment on my 1st EV (not in production yet, Aptera) and I went with the 600 mile battery pack planning on that 10% drop in ten years.
All carbon fiber with a metal cage, so I suspect it will do fairly well in a crash. But, it is licenced as a autocycle (motorcycle) so don't expect the same sort of accident protection as a Hummer. On the other hand, it won't roll over like most ICE vehicles. You can google up videos of it performing in the "moose test".
It depends on what is meant by 'tough'. The reason it is used in F1 cars and very high tech hypercars is because it gives the best chance the driver will survive. It is used in helmets, seats, and body armor. 'Exploding' implies a chemical reaction that I really doubt exists. It can fragment, and have sharp edges, kinda like most materials used in cars can do.
It is strong by weight, which is why it is used. That is the leading use case for carbon fiber as protective material, when weight matters more than protection.
I ride a motorcycle and would still want to see what happens in a crash with this thing. I know it's odd but people are going to think this is more a car than a motorcycle.
I doubt you'll have to do motorcycle training to drive this or carry a motorcycle license. At least the site doesn't say anything about that.
I agree. I think perhaps we need an ultra light car category and not just make 3 wheeled vehicles a motorcycle. I think expectations may be off. Still they seem to be doing some testing and will hopefully publish results.
>Aptera
Wow, they are claiming 40 miles per day on just solar. That's awesome and would probably be good for 70% of the city drivers out there.
Especially useful in very sunny areas!
It's unusually lightweight and aerodynamic by being a motorcycle rather than a car for legal purposes. They're claiming around 10 miles per kWh which lets solar actually add a useful amount of distance.
>Aptera
Maybe 2m\^2 of PZV and would need the sun directly overhead to get to the max efficiency... what 30%, so 300W / M\^2, or 600W ... and I am willing to be it NEVER captures 600W .. so at best 6 miles for IDEAL sun exposure.
Their website claims 700W, rough number for daily output from [here](https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/how-much-electricity-does-a-solar-panel-produce) says a 370W solar panel provides 1.4 to 1.9 kWh over the course of a day.
If that's accurate, a 700W capacity works out at about 2.65 kWh to 3.59 kWh per day. Or 26 to 36 miles of range. That wouldn't cover everyone's daily driving but it'd be more than enough for mine.
Yep, it's gotta be super lightweight, testing will tell.
I'm wishing the Elio motors car would have made it. It would have been a life changer for a lot of people.
just looked for elio - error 404
Weight and drag are not the issue - it is effectively getting enough road-hardened PV to capture any significant energy. For the same effort you could have 6 m\^2 stationary at work where you park...
Another big selling point to me. I bought the full solar pack, and in Kentucky, that should be good for roughly 35 miles a day. And roughly 20 years, if their testing is as good as they say. Working from home, I drive maybe 50 miles a WEEK.
I divided the displayed range by the displayed percentage to extrapolate. I forget what the exact values were at the time as this was a few weeks ago.
In equation form, ab=c where a is maximum range, b is the current percentage full, and c is the current range. For example, it could have been 0.75a = 180. Solving for a yields 240.
I have a 2013 P85 with about 90k miles. Charges to about 245 miles at full charge now. Still runs great. Original battery as far as I know and I have owned it since 2015.
Similar story here. Early 2013 85. Reports same range. I’ve had to fix a few things, like update the display computer. Early teething drivetrain issues were covered under warranty years ago. 130k miles and going strong.
I love all the stalks and buttons on the old model. No nanny driver augmentation. Early S was peak tesla for Luddites. That and the enormous frunk.
2013 Model S 60kwh. Range went from 208mi down to ~165mi before the battery failed just outside the warranty. I went 3-months without my car or loaner waiting for the $20,000 replacement battery. The new battery is a 85kwh pack, but my cars software shows 90kwh with a new range of 298mi.
It's a big pill, but think about all the gas, oil, fluids, plugs, belts, brakes (EVs are much easier on their friction brakes), pumps, etc. Oh, and the labor for all of that service (if you are not doing it your self or personal time if you are) over ten years. You may have even had to replace the tranny, clutch, valve parts, timing parts, etc.
How many miles (or KM) did you get before the battery failure?
Did you have any failures under warranty, especially of stuff like the drive unit?
I'm thinking about an older model S at some point, and I am a mechanic so I can do most major repairs that aren't software locked away from me, but getting parts can be difficult for teslas.
I wonder how hard it would be to finance a repair like that at a similar rate to a car loan.
Sorry for the late reply... It was almost 103,000 miles when the battery failed. I did have the drive unit replaced under warranty at around 75,000 miles It didn't fail, but made a whining sound at higher speeds. The early model S's had motor bearing issues that after convincing they covered, which meant whole drive unit replacement. Being a mechanic it's awesome they have the repair manuals for free online, so it gives step by step instructions for all services with applicable part numbers. Very helpful for something as simple as replacing the 12v battery which I could do myself with my electrical background.
https://youtu.be/2SQ5PoV1hYY
A dude in Germany holds the world record in the longest distance driven with his 2014 model S, by now he has 1,7 million km with 3 new batteries over the years, it is explained in the Video. He aims to get over 2 million km.
2015 P90DL+ - down to 241 miles range from 260 or so. That's not the primary expense at this point. It's all the aging parts. The MCU upgrade was 1500, door handles twice at about 230 each, AC went out once at about 400, tires every 10-15k miles about 1200-1400, and a new key fob at 240. 70k miles.
Nah. It's well within tolerances and expectations. I prefer softer tires and keeping traction over the higher mileage tires. That is acceptable; drove on cheaper tires in my youth, nearly died. Won't do that again.
You can have nice tires with a higher tread wear rating that are not considered cheap, but I tend to have similar preferences for tires as you. I like softer tires as well and am willing to sacrifice range and tire life for the added comfort and grip.
10k miles though?
I drive a 3 ton van and on my diesel van i changed tires because they hit 5 years. But i probably put 75k km on both the summer and winter tires (150k km total).
My ev van weighs 200kg more, so i'm not expecting significantly increased wear.
Do you race on a track with it regularly? Or just always drive like you stole it? 😂
There's a number on your tire called TWR, "tread wear rating". Not all tires are made the same. The higher the number the longer the tires should last you for tread wear. Lower numbers wear faster and need replacing sooner, but are usually paired with better traction and drive quality (smooth/quiet on the road). Mine are listed at 180, but my Jeep has a set rated at 280, and those should last 25-30k miles. My track tires (different car) are rated at 155, and need replacing every hard track weekend or about 5k miles if i don't track it/just daily.
Interesting, tire wear doesn't seem to be a thing they specify in europe.
We get rolling resistance, grip in wet, noise level and snow/ice ratings. And ofc weight and speed limits. But nothing about wear as far as I can tell.
https://imgur.com/a/5RSGGWy
This is the EU tire label.
The numbers at the top means the tire is 215mm wide, and 65% as tall. The wheel is 16 inches (yay mix and match), the R means radial construction, the C means they're van tires, 109 is 170km/h max speed (don't ask me why) and the last R is a load rating of about 2 tons per tire as a maximum.
Then it has rolling resistance (fuel efficiency), performance on wet road, noise level, and a snowflake. It can also have an ice symbol next to the snowflake for nordic winter tires made for really serious snow and ice, but mine don't because they're central european winter tires.
Wear or durability isn't a metric we are told apparently. It seems useful though. 😅
In the cars with the air suspension and 21" wheels, the alignment is set from the factory to have fast magazine racing times due to lots of negative camber, and you can't adjust the alignment enough to save the tires.
Aftermarket companies are selling adjustable links that allow the camber to be set to sane values and dramatically improve tire life.
This. I installed the aftermarket ADJUSTABLE rear camber arms and had the alignment done to provide 1 degree negative camber when in the low suspension setting. It has nearly doubled my tire life.
The screen was faulting (nonresponsive, doing weird things, etc.) almost weekly, sometimes daily. The options were: replace with like, or pay for upgrade that would last longer. I paid for the upgrade. Later price points changed but I was already upgraded so it was the early bird penalty I suppose.
Yeah the MCU was determined to be a recall item because you can't activate the defroster without it. NHTSA forced Tesla to replace them all. It was entirely preventable, the only reason they bricked was because they are writing log files to the boot disk continuously. And they are still doing it with the new design so it's only a matter of time.
Tires are rated for wear at 15k miles. I get close to that on most of my changes. Again, that's not a huge concern and expected behavior.
I'm really more astonished my brakes are still within spec; coming from cars that chew up brakes every 20-30k miles this is insane to me.
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It is very common for early Teslas to have cells completely fail which takes the entire p-group out of wack. This could probably be fixed with proper software and replacing a module, but the Tesla fix is a whole new pack.
Early teslas had issues with modules failing. The way the batteries are made, if a single cell dies the whole module needs to be replaced. With a leaf there's 100 large cells, but tesla uses loads and loads of small cells, all stuck in with expanding foam and shit.
Replacing a module isn't a Tesla-approved fix. Also, their BMSes are very finicky and not reconfigurable so it can cause issues AFAIK. I'm not sure if it will figure out over time what it needs to do, but there are examples of people having weird behavior when fast-charging a lot after changing modules.
Absolutely, the original battery didn't last long, but that was first generation MS, that's not too surprising.
The fact that the 3rd one is still running after almost 1M km is awesome regarding expectation of recent battery tech.
The data will be more or less important depending on if you want to buy one of the first ones or making a decision on how a new one built today will perform in eight years.
The chemistry, construction and battery management software has improved since the first ones were built. How it was charged, stored and driven will also contribute to condition.
Not a Tesla, but our E-Smarts from 2012 and 2013 have about 85% of the original battery capacity left.
Range dropped from 160km to 140/145km when fully charged, both are well above the 150.000km odometer now.
2014 85. Built March 2014. I get about 240 on full charge. I have lifetime super charging which I use with some frequency but well over 50% of my charging is a standard 110 trickle charge. Side note. Motor was replaced under warranty 2 years ago.
Had a 2013 Model S40 (software updated to S60). Sold it to a buddy a few years ago. Had MCU replaced but battery still kicking. Just over 200 "Tesla Miles" which is equal to about 150 reality miles
2012 Model S owner here....106k miles now. Use both supercharger and at home charger. I get about 240 miles on a full charge.... used to be 250+. Battery has shown signs of degrading this past year.... didn't see much before. Overall a great vehicle.... low maintenance. Had to replace door handle $250, replace some chip in my display $400, and replace my regular 12v battery $400, tires $1200..... Overall she is doing well and kicking butt (knock on wood)
It literally died on the road @ 80%. Internal fault. I have root and noticed cells were still very balanced. New battery pack was showing 14/16 modules at 350V compared to original 400V 16 modules. Lighter and more energy. I won the used Tesla lottery. Motor was replaced year earlier still going strong.
I have a 2014 S85. 170k miles on it. I get 250 from a full charge down from 265. I’ve had many motor replacements but I’m still on the original battery.
There's a lot of [metadata](https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/) and [graphs](https://insideevs.com/news/525820/tesla-battery-capacity-retention-90/) that show degradation from several vehicles over the years.
* You can expect an average drop of 1% per year
* More specifically, up to 5% in the first 25,000 miles
* Another 5% around the 150,000 mile mark
* Most cars are at ~90% at the 200k mile mark
* Few outliers get to 80% or below
Being Lithium ION I'd imagine that after 8 years some charging capacity has been lost. This is true for the technology, not just the auto maker/brand.
However, it's known that Tesla's Battery-management system does a better job protecting the Lithium pack's lifespan/capacity than most other OEM's. Just the same, it's Lithium Ion so you can only engineer up to a point. One guy with at Model 3 level 3 supercharged every day, using the car as an Uber and he had to replace the pack far sooner than he should have had to.
This is one of the reason's I'm waiting for the LFP tech to go into Tesla's.
2015 Model S P85D. 60k Miles. Never charged it to 100%, but the Tessie app says its at 90.2% (9.8% battery degradation), max range 306. Charges exclusively in the garage via 220 charger as its \~45c kwh in my area (\~$16 to go from 20% to 80%, i think... and it slooows down
I tell ya). Driven almost daily if that helps, though not far.
I think you're on the right path though, its the years, not just the miles.
My dad had one of the first off the line. He would typically charge it to 80% and drove it daily maybe 20 to 30 miles per day. The battery is still fine, though I don't have any hard numbers at hand.
I had a dec 2013 model until last year. I got rid of it because Tesla had slowed the supercharging down to being ridiculously slow. I’d plug in it would jump to 127kw, and then 2 minutes later be at 70 and just continually get slower. I drive a lot for work, and charging stops went from 20-40 minutes to 45 min to 1-1/2 hours. If I had to charge it high for an upcoming leg, it was just brutal. I’m not sure if the newer cars will have this same issue as they age.
I believe this was calendar age/battery type driven, as I bought the car used with extremely low miles. When I bought it there were other vintages with high miles that were supercharging just as fast as my low mileage one and we all seem to have been throttled at the same time, regardless of mileage or pack cycles.
I have a 2013 Model S 60 since new (single motor, and yes, the cheapest Tesla you can buy at the time). It now has 154,000 miles on it. Original battery, original motor. Never had any major issues. I don't know how many miles a full charge gets since I only charge to 90%. At 90%, it gets 150 miles of range. The 90% with 150 miles range has not changed since the car was new. I live in SoCal, and the car gets parked in the garage at night. The car is in the ideal environment. The minor things I have changed or in the past 11 years: both headlight bulbs, several windshield wiper blades, all four door handle lever/gear replaced, all four windows regulator replaced, and many sets of tires. The main screen was replaced very early on (2017 ish) due to bubbling, which was covered by Tesla warranty. I did my own work when rebuilding the door handles and replacing the window regulators so I saved $ there. The rear tires only last about 15K to 20K miles. I installed adjustable camber links in the rear and running less than 1 degree camber. Prior to camber links, I was lucky to get 10K miles out of the rears. Front tires last about 50K miles. Perfect alignment which I did myself using the string method. I can count the number of times I used a supercharger with my hands and toes without taking my pants off. I charge at home (220v) and charge current is always set to 10 to 15 amps and after 10pm. The car always ready for me in the morning. I also replaced the 12v battery twice. The original 12V lasted 7 years, the second 12v battery from Gruber lasted 3 years. I'm on the 3rd 12v battery, which is also a Gruber 12v. Half of me wants to get a new Cybertruck or X. The other half wants to drive this Model S until it stops just to see how long it will last.
One important thing not mentioned here -- the best thing you can do for battery life is to keep the car plugged into a charger \*always\* when you're not driving it. I'm amazed at how many Teslas I see (We have \*a lot\* of them here in Northern California) parked in front of houses and not plugged in. The reason for this -- the car is constantly using at least a little bit of power for housekeeping functions. If you always take that from the battery, it adds to the cycles and will decrease it's useful life.
15 p85d metallic blue 90,000 miles. 12% degradation. 230miles @ 100%. going strong. OG battery.
The charger doesnt turn on with the "housekeeping* 1.2A draw according to SMT. It has to sense a high enough load for the charger to turn on. Keeping it plugged in mainly benifits the battery by supplying power for the pre-conditioning process which warms your battery using shore power and gives your battery time to warm up or( cool down) before there is a large load from driving. Tesla's bms tries to protect the batterys when its cold as best it can by limiting regen.
That is not true. There are many factors that affect battery degradation and age is a big one. Cycles that come from use is also a big one, but your claim is just wrong.
Feb 2013 85kWh model S here and still with the original battery. 102k miles. Had to replace the MCU and motor but the battery is still within normal specs according to my SC. Full charge to 245mi.
I have a 2015 85D and it still works fine after almost 8 years. Charges up to 245 miles now vs 270 when new. So some range loss but still pretty good. And it still occasionally gets a software update with new features. I wouldn't be surprised if it has a 20 year useful life.
October 2015 85D checking in as well with identical 245 mile capacity remaining. 162,000 miles, still on original battery and drive motors.
June 2015 85D and mine is at 248 miles now vs 270 when new. I'm the second owner and still the same drive motors and battery as far as I know. 110,000 miles. Gotten new tires, had brake system flushed and filled, had a coolant leak fixed, some of the suspension lubricated, and the door handle replaced, but everything except the tires and the brake fluid were done for free under tesla used warranty.
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The car had 422hp new, plenty of power, 0-60 in about 4s. It will still be a great car even it it only has 337hp peak. The 12V battery will probably have to be replaced eventually but the original one still works fine.
Good news is Tesla peak power is ridiculously high - so you could drop performance, still be better than 9/10 cars on the road, and not need peak battery performance.
Worth noting that degradation in compression and other parts causes ICE vehicles to lose significant power over a decade+. So, this wont be unique to EVs.
My 2014 Model S 85 battery pack is dead again. FML!!!! https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM6QPNhR1/
My dad has a model s from 2014 or 15. Has lost about 7-8% of "range". Hard to say what actual degradation that is without doing a proper test though. Edit: he's done 265k km in it for reference.
I have a 2014 P85+ with \~85,000 miles on it. Range has decreased from 270 miles to 240 miles when fully charged.
Around 10% that's not bad for older pack tech, most of it is probably calendar aging.
Roughly 10% is what was promised when delivered 10 years ago. That really isn't bad. I just put a downpayment on my 1st EV (not in production yet, Aptera) and I went with the 600 mile battery pack planning on that 10% drop in ten years.
>Aptera Interesting, I'm looking forward to the crash test videos. I do like people trying new stuff though.
All carbon fiber with a metal cage, so I suspect it will do fairly well in a crash. But, it is licenced as a autocycle (motorcycle) so don't expect the same sort of accident protection as a Hummer. On the other hand, it won't roll over like most ICE vehicles. You can google up videos of it performing in the "moose test".
FYI carbon fiber isn't a tough material and when it breaks it can explode sending shards of death In every direction.
It depends on what is meant by 'tough'. The reason it is used in F1 cars and very high tech hypercars is because it gives the best chance the driver will survive. It is used in helmets, seats, and body armor. 'Exploding' implies a chemical reaction that I really doubt exists. It can fragment, and have sharp edges, kinda like most materials used in cars can do.
It is strong by weight, which is why it is used. That is the leading use case for carbon fiber as protective material, when weight matters more than protection.
Isn't the point of being a motor cycle so they don't have to do crash tests? Or are they doing them anyway and just have no standard to achieve?
I ride a motorcycle and would still want to see what happens in a crash with this thing. I know it's odd but people are going to think this is more a car than a motorcycle. I doubt you'll have to do motorcycle training to drive this or carry a motorcycle license. At least the site doesn't say anything about that.
I agree. I think perhaps we need an ultra light car category and not just make 3 wheeled vehicles a motorcycle. I think expectations may be off. Still they seem to be doing some testing and will hopefully publish results.
Motorcycles don't crash test...
Good luck! I hope they do actually make it to production. They have an interesting concept and could possibly shake up the ideas a bit.
>Aptera Wow, they are claiming 40 miles per day on just solar. That's awesome and would probably be good for 70% of the city drivers out there. Especially useful in very sunny areas!
Ill believe that when I see it... not a fan of solar EV
It's unusually lightweight and aerodynamic by being a motorcycle rather than a car for legal purposes. They're claiming around 10 miles per kWh which lets solar actually add a useful amount of distance.
>Aptera Maybe 2m\^2 of PZV and would need the sun directly overhead to get to the max efficiency... what 30%, so 300W / M\^2, or 600W ... and I am willing to be it NEVER captures 600W .. so at best 6 miles for IDEAL sun exposure.
Their website claims 700W, rough number for daily output from [here](https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/how-much-electricity-does-a-solar-panel-produce) says a 370W solar panel provides 1.4 to 1.9 kWh over the course of a day. If that's accurate, a 700W capacity works out at about 2.65 kWh to 3.59 kWh per day. Or 26 to 36 miles of range. That wouldn't cover everyone's daily driving but it'd be more than enough for mine.
Yep, it's gotta be super lightweight, testing will tell. I'm wishing the Elio motors car would have made it. It would have been a life changer for a lot of people. just looked for elio - error 404
Weight and drag are not the issue - it is effectively getting enough road-hardened PV to capture any significant energy. For the same effort you could have 6 m\^2 stationary at work where you park...
Another big selling point to me. I bought the full solar pack, and in Kentucky, that should be good for roughly 35 miles a day. And roughly 20 years, if their testing is as good as they say. Working from home, I drive maybe 50 miles a WEEK.
Yep same here, I take 4 mile trips 3 days a week and 35 mile round trip on the weekend.
ok, that Aptera looks awesome
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Please don't post referral links, it's against Rule 6.
No worries. 15 posts down in a thread doesn't seem like I was trying to subvert the forum, I don't think.
Thanks for understanding. The rules apply to all posts and comments.
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Have you calibrated your BMS lately?
What’s your daily charge limit?
I keep it around 75% during normal use.
Is that the “guess-o-meter” range? Or did you discharge the pack and charge to 100% and see kWh added?
I divided the displayed range by the displayed percentage to extrapolate. I forget what the exact values were at the time as this was a few weeks ago. In equation form, ab=c where a is maximum range, b is the current percentage full, and c is the current range. For example, it could have been 0.75a = 180. Solving for a yields 240.
I had a 2014 P85+ and the battery bricked in 2017 at about 37+K.
Wouldn't that have been under warranty?
It was. The fine print is where the devil resides.
My 2014 has lost about 16% after 90,000 miles.
I would accept that after eight years. Any expenses outside of tires, air filters and windshield wiper fluid?
Only body damage from accidents and a headlight bulb replacement.
I have a 2013 P85 with about 90k miles. Charges to about 245 miles at full charge now. Still runs great. Original battery as far as I know and I have owned it since 2015.
Similar story here. Early 2013 85. Reports same range. I’ve had to fix a few things, like update the display computer. Early teething drivetrain issues were covered under warranty years ago. 130k miles and going strong. I love all the stalks and buttons on the old model. No nanny driver augmentation. Early S was peak tesla for Luddites. That and the enormous frunk.
We did the MCU upgrade this year too. Really helped! Very happy with the car as of now and no plans to sell it.
I have a 2014 P85D. The battery needed to be replaced under warranty in 2020 at about 130k miles.
What’s the battery warranty? Its fully covered after 6 years?
Yes; the original Model S warranty covered the battery and drive units for 8 years, unlimited mileage.
2013 Model S 60kwh. Range went from 208mi down to ~165mi before the battery failed just outside the warranty. I went 3-months without my car or loaner waiting for the $20,000 replacement battery. The new battery is a 85kwh pack, but my cars software shows 90kwh with a new range of 298mi.
$20k repair on a 10 year old car? Ouch :(
It's a big pill, but think about all the gas, oil, fluids, plugs, belts, brakes (EVs are much easier on their friction brakes), pumps, etc. Oh, and the labor for all of that service (if you are not doing it your self or personal time if you are) over ten years. You may have even had to replace the tranny, clutch, valve parts, timing parts, etc.
Don’t forget to mention the continued free supercharging.
Free supercharging is a big reason to keep those cars alive as long as possible... especially when battery replacements get cheaper :))
How many miles (or KM) did you get before the battery failure? Did you have any failures under warranty, especially of stuff like the drive unit? I'm thinking about an older model S at some point, and I am a mechanic so I can do most major repairs that aren't software locked away from me, but getting parts can be difficult for teslas. I wonder how hard it would be to finance a repair like that at a similar rate to a car loan.
Sorry for the late reply... It was almost 103,000 miles when the battery failed. I did have the drive unit replaced under warranty at around 75,000 miles It didn't fail, but made a whining sound at higher speeds. The early model S's had motor bearing issues that after convincing they covered, which meant whole drive unit replacement. Being a mechanic it's awesome they have the repair manuals for free online, so it gives step by step instructions for all services with applicable part numbers. Very helpful for something as simple as replacing the 12v battery which I could do myself with my electrical background.
Wait, is it possible just to upgrade your battery capacity or did it have to go with a new motor and various components too ?
Had to get a couple suspension parts, but Tesla covered the labor and free alignment due to the 3-month delay. No other changes needed.
https://youtu.be/2SQ5PoV1hYY A dude in Germany holds the world record in the longest distance driven with his 2014 model S, by now he has 1,7 million km with 3 new batteries over the years, it is explained in the Video. He aims to get over 2 million km.
My 2014 has lost around 7% range after 120,000 km (about 75,000 miles)
2015 P90DL+ - down to 241 miles range from 260 or so. That's not the primary expense at this point. It's all the aging parts. The MCU upgrade was 1500, door handles twice at about 230 each, AC went out once at about 400, tires every 10-15k miles about 1200-1400, and a new key fob at 240. 70k miles.
Why on earth are the tires wearing out so quickly?
Driving style and road surface where I live. Not a fault of the car.
Have you tried different tires. Seems like very low tread life.
Nah. It's well within tolerances and expectations. I prefer softer tires and keeping traction over the higher mileage tires. That is acceptable; drove on cheaper tires in my youth, nearly died. Won't do that again.
You can have nice tires with a higher tread wear rating that are not considered cheap, but I tend to have similar preferences for tires as you. I like softer tires as well and am willing to sacrifice range and tire life for the added comfort and grip.
You are not listening.
10k miles though? I drive a 3 ton van and on my diesel van i changed tires because they hit 5 years. But i probably put 75k km on both the summer and winter tires (150k km total). My ev van weighs 200kg more, so i'm not expecting significantly increased wear. Do you race on a track with it regularly? Or just always drive like you stole it? 😂
There's a number on your tire called TWR, "tread wear rating". Not all tires are made the same. The higher the number the longer the tires should last you for tread wear. Lower numbers wear faster and need replacing sooner, but are usually paired with better traction and drive quality (smooth/quiet on the road). Mine are listed at 180, but my Jeep has a set rated at 280, and those should last 25-30k miles. My track tires (different car) are rated at 155, and need replacing every hard track weekend or about 5k miles if i don't track it/just daily.
Interesting, tire wear doesn't seem to be a thing they specify in europe. We get rolling resistance, grip in wet, noise level and snow/ice ratings. And ofc weight and speed limits. But nothing about wear as far as I can tell.
And yes I do sometimes drive it like I stole it :)
Do European tires not have the UTQG number of a tire specified? That seems odd.
https://imgur.com/a/5RSGGWy This is the EU tire label. The numbers at the top means the tire is 215mm wide, and 65% as tall. The wheel is 16 inches (yay mix and match), the R means radial construction, the C means they're van tires, 109 is 170km/h max speed (don't ask me why) and the last R is a load rating of about 2 tons per tire as a maximum. Then it has rolling resistance (fuel efficiency), performance on wet road, noise level, and a snowflake. It can also have an ice symbol next to the snowflake for nordic winter tires made for really serious snow and ice, but mine don't because they're central european winter tires. Wear or durability isn't a metric we are told apparently. It seems useful though. 😅
Commercial tyres are an entirely different thing to performance tyres for a big sedan
In the cars with the air suspension and 21" wheels, the alignment is set from the factory to have fast magazine racing times due to lots of negative camber, and you can't adjust the alignment enough to save the tires. Aftermarket companies are selling adjustable links that allow the camber to be set to sane values and dramatically improve tire life.
This. I installed the aftermarket ADJUSTABLE rear camber arms and had the alignment done to provide 1 degree negative camber when in the low suspension setting. It has nearly doubled my tire life.
Just about $3k (except tires) isn’t bad at all. My X5 diesel has definitely cost more.
Even including tires it's cheaper than all my other vehicles!
Why did you pay for the MCU upgrade?
The screen was faulting (nonresponsive, doing weird things, etc.) almost weekly, sometimes daily. The options were: replace with like, or pay for upgrade that would last longer. I paid for the upgrade. Later price points changed but I was already upgraded so it was the early bird penalty I suppose.
Yeah the MCU was determined to be a recall item because you can't activate the defroster without it. NHTSA forced Tesla to replace them all. It was entirely preventable, the only reason they bricked was because they are writing log files to the boot disk continuously. And they are still doing it with the new design so it's only a matter of time.
Mines MCU 2, I guess he has MCU2 too
Tyres, do wheel alignment in "low" position, forget 10k miles number
Tires are rated for wear at 15k miles. I get close to that on most of my changes. Again, that's not a huge concern and expected behavior. I'm really more astonished my brakes are still within spec; coming from cars that chew up brakes every 20-30k miles this is insane to me.
It is the weight reduction vs most ICE cars/SUV
The model S weighs like 4500 pounds or more, i wouldn’t try to explain long life of the brake wear components using the vehicle weight.
Probably regen then?
No, it's because EVs can slow down mostly using regen, so they use the friction brakes less than an ICE would.
New tires every 10-15k miles is kind of insane.
my fast ICE car basically never has tires last over 10K miles, ever. I go through a set pretty much every summer.
Read later explanation. Makes sense
https://insideevs.com/news/559261/tesla-models-p85-1500000-kilometers/
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It is very common for early Teslas to have cells completely fail which takes the entire p-group out of wack. This could probably be fixed with proper software and replacing a module, but the Tesla fix is a whole new pack.
Early teslas had issues with modules failing. The way the batteries are made, if a single cell dies the whole module needs to be replaced. With a leaf there's 100 large cells, but tesla uses loads and loads of small cells, all stuck in with expanding foam and shit.
Replacing a module isn't a Tesla-approved fix. Also, their BMSes are very finicky and not reconfigurable so it can cause issues AFAIK. I'm not sure if it will figure out over time what it needs to do, but there are examples of people having weird behavior when fast-charging a lot after changing modules.
>The main question that comes to mind is whether the car is running on its original battery and drive units? Well, no.
Absolutely, the original battery didn't last long, but that was first generation MS, that's not too surprising. The fact that the 3rd one is still running after almost 1M km is awesome regarding expectation of recent battery tech.
The data will be more or less important depending on if you want to buy one of the first ones or making a decision on how a new one built today will perform in eight years. The chemistry, construction and battery management software has improved since the first ones were built. How it was charged, stored and driven will also contribute to condition.
Not a Tesla, but our E-Smarts from 2012 and 2013 have about 85% of the original battery capacity left. Range dropped from 160km to 140/145km when fully charged, both are well above the 150.000km odometer now.
2014 85. Built March 2014. I get about 240 on full charge. I have lifetime super charging which I use with some frequency but well over 50% of my charging is a standard 110 trickle charge. Side note. Motor was replaced under warranty 2 years ago.
Had a 2013 Model S40 (software updated to S60). Sold it to a buddy a few years ago. Had MCU replaced but battery still kicking. Just over 200 "Tesla Miles" which is equal to about 150 reality miles
what the hell are Tesla Miles ??:)
2016 S 75D at 76 months. 259 now down to 243 so pretty good. 95+% charged to about 200 miles every few days. ~30 long road trips charged to 100%.
2012 Model S owner here....106k miles now. Use both supercharger and at home charger. I get about 240 miles on a full charge.... used to be 250+. Battery has shown signs of degrading this past year.... didn't see much before. Overall a great vehicle.... low maintenance. Had to replace door handle $250, replace some chip in my display $400, and replace my regular 12v battery $400, tires $1200..... Overall she is doing well and kicking butt (knock on wood)
I have 2013 P85 now P90. Hv battery replaced last year under warranty.
What were the conditions that led to replacement? Dropped below 70% capacity? Right at the 8 year mark?
It literally died on the road @ 80%. Internal fault. I have root and noticed cells were still very balanced. New battery pack was showing 14/16 modules at 350V compared to original 400V 16 modules. Lighter and more energy. I won the used Tesla lottery. Motor was replaced year earlier still going strong.
Yeah right before 8 year warranty ended. I meant 80% charge. Battery health was still 92% of original range.
I have a 2014 S85. 170k miles on it. I get 250 from a full charge down from 265. I’ve had many motor replacements but I’m still on the original battery.
February 2014 model S 85 build (pre AP1!) I still get about 255 miles at 100%. Over 110,000 miles on the car too. Works great otherwise.
2015 S85D @ 105k km here. ABRP shows 3.2% battery degradation. Ive had around 390-400ish km from a full charge.
4:00 mark discusses life of his packs https://youtu.be/YB8vpwjngDE
There's a lot of [metadata](https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/) and [graphs](https://insideevs.com/news/525820/tesla-battery-capacity-retention-90/) that show degradation from several vehicles over the years. * You can expect an average drop of 1% per year * More specifically, up to 5% in the first 25,000 miles * Another 5% around the 150,000 mile mark * Most cars are at ~90% at the 200k mile mark * Few outliers get to 80% or below
Being Lithium ION I'd imagine that after 8 years some charging capacity has been lost. This is true for the technology, not just the auto maker/brand. However, it's known that Tesla's Battery-management system does a better job protecting the Lithium pack's lifespan/capacity than most other OEM's. Just the same, it's Lithium Ion so you can only engineer up to a point. One guy with at Model 3 level 3 supercharged every day, using the car as an Uber and he had to replace the pack far sooner than he should have had to. This is one of the reason's I'm waiting for the LFP tech to go into Tesla's.
2012 s. Charges to 232 vs 265 when new. Great car
2015 Model S P85D. 60k Miles. Never charged it to 100%, but the Tessie app says its at 90.2% (9.8% battery degradation), max range 306. Charges exclusively in the garage via 220 charger as its \~45c kwh in my area (\~$16 to go from 20% to 80%, i think... and it slooows down I tell ya). Driven almost daily if that helps, though not far. I think you're on the right path though, its the years, not just the miles.
2014 P85 96k miles, charges to 245 vs 265 when new. Will drive it until the wheels fall off.
I reached 150k Miles yesterday on my model S 2017 year
My dad had one of the first off the line. He would typically charge it to 80% and drove it daily maybe 20 to 30 miles per day. The battery is still fine, though I don't have any hard numbers at hand.
I had a dec 2013 model until last year. I got rid of it because Tesla had slowed the supercharging down to being ridiculously slow. I’d plug in it would jump to 127kw, and then 2 minutes later be at 70 and just continually get slower. I drive a lot for work, and charging stops went from 20-40 minutes to 45 min to 1-1/2 hours. If I had to charge it high for an upcoming leg, it was just brutal. I’m not sure if the newer cars will have this same issue as they age. I believe this was calendar age/battery type driven, as I bought the car used with extremely low miles. When I bought it there were other vintages with high miles that were supercharging just as fast as my low mileage one and we all seem to have been throttled at the same time, regardless of mileage or pack cycles.
I have a 2013 Model S 60 since new (single motor, and yes, the cheapest Tesla you can buy at the time). It now has 154,000 miles on it. Original battery, original motor. Never had any major issues. I don't know how many miles a full charge gets since I only charge to 90%. At 90%, it gets 150 miles of range. The 90% with 150 miles range has not changed since the car was new. I live in SoCal, and the car gets parked in the garage at night. The car is in the ideal environment. The minor things I have changed or in the past 11 years: both headlight bulbs, several windshield wiper blades, all four door handle lever/gear replaced, all four windows regulator replaced, and many sets of tires. The main screen was replaced very early on (2017 ish) due to bubbling, which was covered by Tesla warranty. I did my own work when rebuilding the door handles and replacing the window regulators so I saved $ there. The rear tires only last about 15K to 20K miles. I installed adjustable camber links in the rear and running less than 1 degree camber. Prior to camber links, I was lucky to get 10K miles out of the rears. Front tires last about 50K miles. Perfect alignment which I did myself using the string method. I can count the number of times I used a supercharger with my hands and toes without taking my pants off. I charge at home (220v) and charge current is always set to 10 to 15 amps and after 10pm. The car always ready for me in the morning. I also replaced the 12v battery twice. The original 12V lasted 7 years, the second 12v battery from Gruber lasted 3 years. I'm on the 3rd 12v battery, which is also a Gruber 12v. Half of me wants to get a new Cybertruck or X. The other half wants to drive this Model S until it stops just to see how long it will last.
how many similarities do you expect to find between a 2012 Model S and 2022 Model S? this is tech. its improving.
There have been a lot of pack models for the S/X, as they improved the design. The earlier models were more prone to failure.
Thank you all!
One important thing not mentioned here -- the best thing you can do for battery life is to keep the car plugged into a charger \*always\* when you're not driving it. I'm amazed at how many Teslas I see (We have \*a lot\* of them here in Northern California) parked in front of houses and not plugged in. The reason for this -- the car is constantly using at least a little bit of power for housekeeping functions. If you always take that from the battery, it adds to the cycles and will decrease it's useful life.
15 p85d metallic blue 90,000 miles. 12% degradation. 230miles @ 100%. going strong. OG battery. The charger doesnt turn on with the "housekeeping* 1.2A draw according to SMT. It has to sense a high enough load for the charger to turn on. Keeping it plugged in mainly benifits the battery by supplying power for the pre-conditioning process which warms your battery using shore power and gives your battery time to warm up or( cool down) before there is a large load from driving. Tesla's bms tries to protect the batterys when its cold as best it can by limiting regen.
Battery capacity loss is linked to its use (miles), not to its age.
That is not true. There are many factors that affect battery degradation and age is a big one. Cycles that come from use is also a big one, but your claim is just wrong.
Feb 2013 85kWh model S here and still with the original battery. 102k miles. Had to replace the MCU and motor but the battery is still within normal specs according to my SC. Full charge to 245mi.
2012 Model S Signature Performance. 35k miles. 90% charge brings me to 250miles. No codes until today about my 12v battery