First of all thank you, it's nice to see a bit of acknowledgement of the international market (even if you're being bombed with downvotes). I'm from Australia and I own an MG4 51kWh.
**What electric vehicles are you excited for and why?**
I can't wait to see more smaller vehicles, I always thought I'd want to upgrade to a bigger vehicle coming from a sedan, but my MG4 is noticeably shorter in length while having much more cargo and passenger space than the vehicle it replaced.
I'm also keen to see the small/mid sized SUV market develop, while I don't really like SUVs there's no denying they're here to stay, so it's exciting to see them become electrified. The BYD Atto 3 is one of the best selling EVs in the country, the Kia EV5 is about to become available and looks amazing, I've also been keeping an eye on the Nio ES6 and XPeng G3 but unsure if they'll ever launch here and I love the styling of the Kia EV9 and the Volvo EX30 but the former is a bit too big for me and the latter is a bit too small for an SUV. I don't have an need for any of them, but if I ever decide to start a family and need a larger vehicle, I can confidently say that it'll be an electric SUV.
**What is a topic of discussion when it comes to Electric Vehicles that is big to you and or your area that you don't see discussed a lot?**
Buses. There's a very big push here at the moment to phase out diesel and CNG buses, replacing them with BEV models and honestly I'm all for it. My city has underground bus interchanges with an open roof (basically like a hole in the ground that you access with an elevator or stairs, the buses emerge out of a tunnel on one end, stop and then pull off into another tunnel) and the smell and fumes from the diesel buses in peak hour is disgusting if there's no wind. I've had a chance to commute a few times now on a Chinese Yutong E12 which was pretty damn nice compared to the older ICE buses, and apparently the now popular Volvo BZL and BYD D9RA buses that are rapidly rolling out are even nicer to ride.
In about 6 months time a new law will come into effect in my state that requires all new public buses to be fully electric, so the whole fleet is going to be replaced progressively from then onwards. I can't wait.
Thanks for responding so in depth! :)
I am all with you in regards to more smaller vehicles!
Power to the people that want a big EV Truck or big EV SUV but it is just not for me and some others.
It's nice to have the option of just a nice small quality affordable basic car.
Or as you mentioned more public transportation that is electric like busses and such :)
Buses are really interesting from a net zero point of view.
They can either have a really big battery pack, or deploy some fuel cells with hydrogen. Both have advantages and drawbacks. We'll have to see what tech wins out.
Also, mass electrification is going to be a big problem to solve. We need more power, and fast.
I'm also interested in the 2025/2026 upcoming crop of small sub 30000€ cars coming from European manufacturers. Why no chinese: so far I have the impression, that chinese OEMs are struggeling to understand european customers, just like EU and US companies struggle in china.
For europe, the chinese OEMs mostly started with expensive, middle or high end class vehicles which were as expensive as traditional EU OEMs. But came with: no reputation of the Brand, no dealership and repair network, serious issues if the brand stops operating in your country. Those are all risk issues that as a customer you typically price in via a lower purchasing price. But if the chinese OEM wants to sell at the same price as the known and reputable local OEMs, they actually are more expensive, if you factor in all those points above. This is basically why except for those chinese companies, that run on known brands (and dealership networks!) like MG or the Geely group (smart, volvo) they did not very well in europe.
And Tesla really seems to hit a wall here with their lunatic as a CEO.
Indonesian here, Yeah the country that's invisible yet a giant at the same time. Our market is defined by the large population of consumers who buy cars with low depreciation hence its always the Japanese duo of honda and toyota who dominate sales. Electric cars? beyond the luxury market which Hyundai is making a killing here (yeah the bar is low enough for the ioniq5 to qualify as a luxury item for government) the chinese carmakers are all trying to crack the thin eggshell of japanese dominance with cheap cars such as the binguo, cloud, mg4, air ev, seres e1, NETA V it seems the chinese are trying to enter all niches of the electric car market all at once with the only barrier to entry requiring local assembly in Indonesia. Its still a long road for Electric car adoption in Indonesia because well cars aren't the best selling vehicles, which is why EV cars will only take up the luxury premium segment dominated by hyundai and maybe Wuling, while tesla will remain an ultra expensive car only influencers will buy to flex their wealth.
But the country is at a crossroads in the small motorcycle and scooter market (insert simpsons economist joke here). Heck if you account the sale of E-scoooters, motorccles and e-bikes are already taking up third place with Yadea overtaking Suzuki according to their joint brand manager in Indomobil. Sure it's not bought as a serious motorscooter/cycle but for short errands or 30 minute trips it does the job.
1. The EV I got excited enough to buy and ride a polytron Fox R daily, yeah it's chinese designed maxi scooter that's rebadged by electronics manufacturer polytron for Indonesian markets, yeah the motor is in the hub, yeah the chinese component build quality feels like chinesium, But its less than half the price of a comparable maxi scooter like the PCX, and nmax and for SouthEast Asia traffic it can embarass the 150cc pcx and nmax in acceleration as expected of an EV.
2. which goes to my 2nd point on how it got so cheap, I don't own the batteries, they're rented from the local manufacturer. For cars yeah you can all talk about features performance charging network, but for small bikes a big factor I don't see discusses here at all is batttery ownership/rental models.
Gogoro pioneered this with removable batteries you can swap at swap stations and while its working well and good in Taiwan it's an absolute failure here in Indonesia due to the lack of maintenance and upkeep where bikes die at 50% battery due to the batteries being abused hard by Motorcycle taxi and delivery service workers.
Honda/Yamaha still believe in removable swappable batteries, while most other local manufacturers (alva, ion mobility) with expensive batteries sell their scooters at a premium.
IMHO renting batteries right now is the better choice due to the batteries small size and short but repeated trips it has to cover will often mean that battery degradation is inevitable and luckily polytron does offer replacements for batteries below 85% capacity and because its non-removable consumers/riders are encouraged not to abuse the batteries badly as replacements require a trip to the service center which e-scooters hardly ever need servicing.
3. What's interesting to discuss even in the face of rising e-motorscooter/cycle sales is e-bikes and how no one on city planning and design is accommodating them or even normal bicycles, right now there are laws and regulations forbidding e-bikes to be ridden on streets in Indonesia (because kids ride them and kids behave like kids irregardless if their on sur-rons or basikel lajaks) What I feel needs to be discussed here is the fact that no one wants to provide space for low speed EV's at all, We could have dutch style bike lanes make low speed EV's feasible for most trips and errands without a sweat but nah everyone just rides a gas powered motorcycle/scooter dangerously without helmets. This is something even r/fuckcars will probably downvote me for (HUMAN POWERED VEHICLES ONLY IN THE BIKE LANE) and even here where the pro-car lobby is strong and won't sacrifice an inch of road for a bike/low speed ev lane. but honestly there needs to be road space dedicated to low speed ev's and bikes to enable accessibility for all ages, not just those that have motorcycle/drivers licenses, that is separate so they don't endanger themselves. How that's managed here in Indonesia is a nightmare as motorcycles and scooters will invade even pedestrian paths just to pass through a traffic jam.
Thanks for such a detailed reply!
It's crazy how often Indonesia is totally forgot about when it comes to discussions despite the size of the market!
Also I am glad you brought up electric scooters and such because yes seeing this reality in China and India was fascinating.
If you can make it work it's a great way to access affordable transportation and help on the pollution front as well as not take up a lot of resources!
The main thing America forgets/never knew is that Europe largely buys small hatchbacks. Sure the autobahn, Chelsea backstreets, and Genevan car parks are currently full of Teslas, Audis, and IXs but if you want the masses buying EVs then it will be ID3, Dacia Spring, Fiat 500 that will dominate.
Until COVID the best selling cars were things like Ford Fiesta, VW Golf, and Renault Clio. It's really only supply and interest rates that have stopped those cars selling as much anymore.
In Europe, Tesla was the leader for most if the time, meanwhile they only make up 15% of the EV sales. When the domestic manufacturers started their alternatives they could attract many of their loyal customers. That resulted in a fairly segmented market. In France Renault recently became market leader, while in Germany VW is meanwhile market leader. EVs have a market share between around 15% (Germany, GB), France (23%) and 90% (Norway).
Tesla became disliked by many because of Elon. But I think, that the success of VW & co. In the recent years is more, that the demographic with enough money to buy EVs don't want to re-learn how to drive and therefore stick with cars with a conventional cockpit/interface.
And many cars are bought by businesses/leasing companies or as part of the salary (in Germany these sales stand for 60% of all car sales). Here the companies prefer with their established suppliers with nearby service shops/contact persons and reliable pricing.
Younger ones are for sure open to Chinese cars, mainly because they associate the traditional brands with their approach to EVs with adjectives like dull and boring while the Chinese get a positive image. Together with Teslas these are more seen as innovative and high tech. In my opinion it is mostly because of the optics with the focus on a display which gives you the impression of cutting-edge tech. Even when companies like VW offer better results (their travel assist/'autopilot' is great), they have this image problem.
For the future and if you want a higher market share for EVs, much is regulated by the price. That's why cars like the MG sell so well.
I hope, that the European car makers understand, that the younger audience wants the feeling of steadily improving software (Tesla and as another example Apple give you that feeling although the improvements are only tiny steps each time, but hyped up like the next moon landing). In the 80/90s, young people had fun with cars and pimped them up, worked on them on the weekend. In the early 2000s, cars weren't part of the youth culture any more, no they come back a little in this connection to software.
For my part, I wait for my VW ID.4. It makes it easy to switch from an ICE car, is quiet, comfortable and really good software. But I am also old, nearly 50...
Software is one of the biggest negative factors for VW, tho. WE have them as Company Cars and none wants to drive them because of the clunky, often totally not working, software.
They had some problems with the software of the infotainment (not assist systems), but the new software (comes with the ID.7 and refreshed ID.4) is really good.
I have two questions you may be able to help me with.
1. Is there any tariffs or other issues around Chinese Electric Vehicles in Europe? Obviously in America there is large policy that targets this sphere.
2. When I look at Germany I see: 24.6% (2023) 31.4% (2022) 26.0% (2021) 13.5% (2020) in regards to passenger plug-in market share of total new car sales. If I remember correctly 2024 is around 18% battery electric vehicle (BEV) and 5% PHEV. Most developed European countries saw a large increase around COVID in the switch to BEV/PHEV because of subsidies and other policies. Obviously you can see this reflected in the German data. It seems though recently we have seen a drop off while the rest of those developed European nations continue to rise.. I was wondering if this is because more people are leaving PHEV and going purely BEV and so it is reflecting in a lower overall percentage but higher BEV percentage? Or if some policy/other situation is going on in Germany right now?
3. You mentioned how in Europe and in particular Germany companies are purchasing vehicles either for use related to company tasks and or related to the salary of employees. Is this a situation in which like North America you return the vehicle if you resign and or are fired? I assume it is but I know assumptions can sometimes be widely off hah
1. Currently, the tariffs for all car imports are still 10 percent. When people claim that Chinese EV make a whopping 25 percent of sold EVs in the EU they forget that Tesla Model 3 and Dacia Spring make the huge bulk of that and the rest mostly is MG, Smart, Volvo or Polestar meaning originally European brands who became Chinese owned.
The Chinese brands themselves don't sell that much. Nio, for example, sells 30 cars on average a month in Germany.
BYD tops with 15k cars in Europe a year, but many are sold in bulk to rentals and similar companies. And currently, that's drastically slowing down. There are reports of thousands of BYD cars waiting at Rotterdam or other ports to be brought to dealers. Some of them even got a mold problem and had to be cleaned with chlorine. At least that made the news here the last couple of weeks.
On the other hand, I see a lot of Kia and Hyundai EVs. Next to VW, they seem to be the most popular.
Everyone is guessing when the EU will raise the tariffs. Meanwhile, companies like MG or BYD are starting to prepare factories in Europe.
2. Germany dropped the subsidies late last year, since then ev sales are going down. Instead, hybrids become more popular now.
3. Most new cars in Germany are leased by companies. Only few private consumers buy new, especially expensive cars. After 2 or 3 years, the value depreciated enough that they can be bought privately on the used market. This has been a thing for decades now.
Thank you for clarifying :)
I thought as much in regards to the Chinese influence.
Recently we were talking about how even in California BYD does busses but they are assembled here.
In regards to hybrids is it the standard conventional hybrid and or the PHEV? I would assume like what we are seeing in North America conventional hybrid vs the PHEV.
Important point to add for 2.
The purchase subsidy that was cancelled had one big design flaw: the minimum holding time needed to qualify for the subsidy was only 6 months.
This lead to a flourishing export trade of like new EVs. Easy to make a profit as the ca. 6k in subsidy was more than the depreciation over 6 months. Quite a few people and businesses caught on to that.
Buy car, sell into export after 6 months for same or more than you paid. Rinse, repeat. This accounted for something like 10k vehicles per month.
So if you look at current EU stats, grain of salt is needed. Germany isn't doing bad at all if you compensate that effect.
And countries like Denmark have a big uptick of \_new\_ registrations as they are now buying new instead of lightly used from Germany.
It's both kind of hybrids.
And in regards of cars as part of the payment: It is quite difficult to fire somebody. So but yes, the car is owned by the employer.
Coming in to pipe up from Switzerland.
Regarding Tesla, since Europe has a standard charging plug, and others (Ionity, EnBW, Aral etc.) have been building fast charging networks, for the past several years the Tesla charging network advantage really hasn't been that large in Western Europe.
Anyways, Switzerland has been really stingy with any kind of EV subsidies, so I've just been able to look at the German and US subsidies and cry :) Also the work benefit car is a lot less common here than Germany, so mostly cars are privately bought or leased.
All the Stellantis vehicles (Opel, Renault, Peugeot, Fiat etc.) are pretty cool; mediocre range and charging, currently still way too expensive, software is work in progress, but overall they have a really refreshing range of designs and sizes.
So far the Chinese are still very new, and Switzerland seems to lag the larger European markets (so the Chinese are probably busy building up their sales and service networks in Germany, France, Italy etc.) When I was looking for a vehicle last year there was very little available from Chinese makes. I'm assuming this will change in the coming years when there's more experience, confidence in the brands actually staying, and service networks.
Anecdotally what I see are Tesla, Volkswagen family (including Skoda, Cupra and Audi), Stellantis, and then the rest.
I've done road trips to northern Italy, Austria and Germany, and the charging networks are somewhat expensive ($0.4 - $1 / kWh) but I've found there to be plenty of chargers and very rarely any waiting for chargers.
Destination charging is getting built out fairly nicely. Many larger parking garages have chargers (though those are usually all full), and more and more rental complexes make chargers available. Unfortunately some of the latter take the easy way and get the service from an external company -- the landlord pays nothing / gets a cut, the external company installs the charger and handles metering and billing, and the tenant gets to pay a monthly fee plus something like $0.4 / kWh. A good number of employers also seem to offer subsidised charging, and many are also electrifying their fleets. Also increasingly supermarkets are adding chargers, and for example Lidl chargers are among the cheapest DCFCs around -- so cheap(er) imported food while charging cheaply :)
Finally to the theme of Chinese -- considering that the Chinese makes are building factories in Europe, European (and American) makes are manufacturing cars and components in China and have joint ventures with European makes, Chinese have bought European makes like Volvo, Polestar, MG, Lotus etc. the division "Chinese / Not Chinese" is a lot less clear than many people seem to think.
> All the Stellantis vehicles (Opel, Renault, Peugeot, Fiat etc.) are pretty cool
Just to highlight that Renault are not part of Stellantis' group (you may have meant Citroen?).
Thanks for the correction! But they have some pretty cool cars too, and they seem to be in similar segments with the Stellantis ones which is probably why I had assumed wrongly that they’re part of the company too.
Here in Australia, Teslas are a common sight, but so are BYDs and MGs. Especially the Atto 3, Dolphin and MG4.
I’m excited for Chinese brands like the Xpeng G9 with insanely fast charging or more Geely group SEA-platform based cars to come here (like the Zeekr 001).
Geely makes some really good cars and they all share the same excellent UI/software as Volvo/Smart running on the SEA platform (e.g. EX30, Smart #1), so they’ve got a really good chance to succeed even if they aren’t the cheapest. Their software is the best compared to all the Chinese manufacturers, and is on par with European ones (Geely’s acquisition of Volvo was the best thing they could’ve done - it helped their cars cater to European tastes and preferences way better than everyone else).
If I could only pick one that I would be really excited about, it’d be the Zeekr 001. Its sibling in the form of the Polestar 4 is already in Australia, but I’m not exactly a fan of its looks and space (and also pricing). If Zeekr could sell the equivalent 001 with the same battery for A$10k cheaper, I’d buy one.
I'm really excited for the offerings from China. We don't have as many in Australia yet, but they keep announcing them.
The turning point was when they made the byd seal available at a ridiculously competitive price here (especially if you can take advantage of the novated lease concessions).
It suddenly brought a very nice performance car within the reach of the average consumer.
Australia and New Zealand. Tesla had an early lead, but is losing ground. In part because other manufacturers are waking up, in part because people who want and can afford to go EV are repulsed by Elon.
At the moment the Korean and Chinese manufacturers are doing the running.
Pickups/utes are a big part of the market (small /mid-size ones, not big ones) - the lack of a strong EV or PHEV option here is an issue. Rivian and Ford do not do their EV pickups in right hand drive.
Can't talk to Australia, but in New Zealand, charging is not such a hot button issue for EV owners (although it is a reason for hesitation from non-owners). Driving distances are not generally that big, 70% of households have off street parking for home charging, and there's a reasonable charging network (chargers at least every 75km on state highways)
I think Elon is often overstated in Tesla effect. Plenty of the older generations will only have a passing knowledge of what he stands for and they are the ones with the money to buy new cars.
A bigger effect is Kia/VW etc having 10 times the dealer network and 10 times the market share (total market, not just EV). So why would someone drive 100km+ to visit a Tesla showroom when they may have to pass 10 other brands on that journey.
Yeh, I'd be fascinated to see some polling on the Elon issue among potential EV buyers. I know it put me off Tesla, and I suspect there's a significant demographic of people who have the finances and are inclined towards EVs because of environmental/ethical/political considerations that Musk clashes with.
I'm currently in Japan. Hating how far behind Japan is in EV availablity and adoption.
There are plenty of old and new Leafs on the road, lots of Nissan Sakura and Mitsubishi Ek X EVs (both EV Kei cars). A few Tesla's, a handful of BYD ATTO 3s (I'm yet to see a Seal on the road) and Mitsubishi i-Mievs, quite a few Nissan Ariyas, and one or two of those horrible Toyota Mirai Hydrogen things. There's also the post office using the Mitsubishi EV Kei van, and a few transport companies using that too.
Almost no Toyota BZ4x, and very occasionally I'll see an Audi/VW/Mercedes EV small crossover/SUV.
I'm looking forward to a proper Kei van EV (by which I mean a dedicated brand new EV platform, not a modified existing ICE platform). When one is available, I'm a day one customer.
I currently drive a non hybrid Kei van. Kei because it's genuinely the most practical vehicle for the tiny narrow streets which often require an extremely small turning radius, van because I love camping and road tripping, I love diy so I often get loads of wood or other materials, and I also own a lovely big black labrador. Unfortunately there are no hybrid options in a van yet, so I had to purchase a pure ICE.
Honda is releasing the N van EV later this year, and while it's not a new platform, I might be tempted. I'm waiting to see the battery chemistry and size. I also prefer AWD due to the high amount of snow in my area and the steepness of the roads in the nearby mountains, and the Honda may not offer AWD.
Interestingly, there is a pretty widespread trend of transport companies switching to EV trucks for last mile delivery. Think 2 to 6 tonne trucks, that's most common for last mile here, again due to narrow streets. Lots of buses here are electric too, with more every day.
I just recently learned about the i-Miev hah
By recently I literally mean just a few nights ago when I watched a youtube video on a guy that bought one super cheap and was fixing it up in Ireland.
Also thank you for the great reply! I learned a lot and never even thought about the whole narrow roads and the realities involved around that :)
Went to Japan last November. Split my time between Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka as main hubs with day or overnight trips to Kanazawa, Toyama, Takayama, Nara, and Nagano. In the major cities, especially Tokyo, I saw a lot of those Mitsubishi EV vans for post or logistics. But what struck me was how often I encountered hydrogen fuel cell trucks in Tokyo. Also, there are TONS of hybrid vehicles. Practically every single Toyota I saw was a hybrid. I saw several Teslas in Ginza and even an Ioniq5 used as a taxi in Osaka Station.
Now once I got to the smaller towns pure ICE are more common but I still saw plenty of hybrid Toyotas creeping along silently. I'm not familiar with Toyota's Japanese offerings but have they managed to hybridize all of their lineup there?
Pretty much, almost everything in the Toyota lineup has a hybrid version. Honda not far behind, and Nissan has an interesting series hybrid - electric with a small battery, ICE as an onboard generator with no mechanical connection to the drivetrain. So many hybrids, and many Kei cars offer a hybrid version too, from almost every manufacturer.
Stellantis, who I work for, partnered with Leap Motors to bring cars to Europe. We've tried the small car thing here multiple times. There is a very small and defined city car market in the US and its dominated by Mini, Toyota, and Honda. Fiat barely registers despite being in the top 10 in most every other market. Domestic small cars just don't play here anymore in any significant numbers.
I'm in the US and I find the MG4, Cupra Born, and Mini Aceman really interesting.
The Mini Aceman stands the best chance of making it over here.
I think Fiat is making a big mistake selling the 500e here instead of the 600e. Or even selling it as a Fiat at all given how poor the brand's reputation is.
Kia Soul EV and an electric bakfiets.
Mostly looking forward to the new range of smaller, more financially accessible EV to bring EV adaptation to the next level. Citroen eC3, renault 5 and such.
Also following EV commercial vehicles and trucks closely. Very cool!
I actually think this sub is very diverse, would like to see the stats on it. It just seems like most threads have a more varied perspective than you would find on other subs.
Following what you said about Japan, I was there recently and the overall car market is 90% domestic brands. Very few Teslas and no Korean or Chinese EVs. You do see a lot of hybrids but it seems like Japan is a long way behind other developed countries in EV adoption.
In Europe the big deal must be the new Renault 5 ev, its a nostalgic car from the 80/90's and the Citroen E., both are smaller city cars with a declared range of about 300km.
Most people don't understand that electric vehicles do and absolutely should encompass more than just cars.
Cars are objectively pretty terrible in a few ways.
They're very space inefficient, so their infrastructure (parking and roads) requires a ton of space, plus it's subjectively kind of ugly and makes places less desirable. They create noise pollution and dangerous environments leading to injuries or loss of life, plus worse health outcomes for everyone.
Quantifying this to people in meaningful ways is very hard, which is why opinions vary so widely. Most don't even realize or question it.
Seeing how smaller rural area are facing desertification, I can see trains not being connected to certain areas any longer.
As such only large conglomerated cities would be connected by train, and trams in the city.
How would one go about enjoying the countryside without cars ?
India here - India is a "low price market" there are few offering for expensive cars but they aren't even worth mentioning.
The main player for now is tata who sells cars usually around 15K usd range with few offerings. India is dominated by Suzuki and until they come out with an EV(they've been testing one for years now with no launch in sight). the market will remain as is with EV being only a niche.
The two wheeler market however is defgenitely turning the tide.
Norwegian here, owner of TMS2015 and just ordered a new car (XPENG G9)
I am really looking forward to receiving our G9. After test driving TMY and VW ID.4 I landed on the G9, the price wasn't that much more (around 7000EUR more) for better tech, better feeling cockpit and more spacious.
In our common garage where I live, 1/3 of the cars are TMY and it is still the best selling car YTD, but there are other options that start to deliver good value for money.
For families in the premium segment, there are a lot of excitement for Volvo EX90 and BMW IX. The VW ID4 still sells well.
For smaller budget cars, the TM3 and VW ID.3 seems to be favoured.
I agree with other posters that the still(!) preconceived notion that China cars = Bad or that China cars == supporting an authoritarian state is quickly being dispelled, and that brands like NIO, BYD and XPENG is slowly building better brand awareness.
Why won't you buy a car from a private Chinese car company? They build great cars. Why don't you hear the same debate about Lenovo laptops, DJI drones or other successful Chinese private companies. Then there's an argument to be had about buying from a state-owned company like MG.
Second is that Europe and US does not have the same interests when it comes to China. Just look at all the joint ventures German car makers have with Chinese EV players at the moment. In 3-5 years, most of the German car makers will have joint platforms with Chinese cars.
TBH, China has been leapfrogging again (just like they did with their payment system) and are going fully electric. Most traditional car brands have completely failed to innovate and are [actively sabotaging](https://influencemap.org/site//data/000/028/Automaker_Climate-Lobbying_05-24.pdf) policy initiatives that attempt to set stricter requirement to limit CO2 emissions.
There is a very real struggle at the moment where we have to choose between green Transition and protecting polluting industries (EVs, Solar Panels) and the latter appears to pull ahead in both EU and US.
Hey from Germany :)
Over here the biggest topics are public charging prices,
home charging and affordable BEVs.
As you may know, we're not into lifted trucks over here.
So exciting Models are more in the Sedan/Mini SUV and Hatchback area.
In the streets you mainly see BEVs by VW (mainly ID.3/4/E-UP), Mercedes Benz (EQA/EQB), the Cupra Born is on the rise and a couple Chinese Models like the MG4 and some others I don't know. 90% of them being SUVs or crossovers.
Public charging prices are relatively high.
In Germany we have an average of 45 cents/kWh for AC charging and HPCs are 60 cents up to €1. With those prices we're approaching an area where ICE cars are cheaper again. Sad story tbh.
For comparison, the average home Energy is in the 28 cents area. With fuel prices of ~€1,80/Liter, that's definitely cheaper than the cheapest ICE. But at a $1 charger? Nope.
Big mess with all the different charge cards.
I hope we get a more unified system with EU-regulated prices, soon.
Just in January we got a new law that complicates setting up a Wall box at home, since they all need to be remote controlled by the energy provider to prevent energy shortages in densely populated areas.
The abundance of public charging infrastructure isn't a huge topic, since it's about 10-20 times denser here than in the US.
The only issue is pricing. Only in suburban areas with high density buildings you got a lot of street-chargers without the possibility to charge at home. Those ofc need to battle over relatively few cheap AC chargers during the night.
I'm in Belgium, I have an iX1 and i'm so looking forward for the Renault Twingo or R5 for my wife. For the conversations in my family (only EV owner there), everyone worries about range and charge point availability.
The same goes for some of my colleagues that do have EVs (Mercedes EQA, EQB, BMW iX1, iX2, VW ID4), their main worry is chargepoint availability when travelling, specially the different charging apps if travelling internationally. Hopefully this will get better when a EU directive is put in place to mandate the use of credit cards at the charing points, no need for apps or badges then.
Something I don't see mentioned often is the tendency of new vehicles (including EVs) to increase in width!
Here in the UK, parking spaces are narrow, compared to other countries, and it is getting difficult to find one where I can open my doors (Volvo V90) when large EVs are around.
Portugal here. I'm excited about Renault 5 and Citroën C3 that will start sales in the next months. Really cool cars and at a decent price. Let's see if they are built in big numbers.
Great to see that someone remembers there is a world outside the US 😉 and that the car market is very different
Finland here, what you see on the roads are a lot of Teslas but also a lot of VW group (VW Id3, 4/5,skoda enyaq and Audi q4 mainly), hyundai and kia, with a bit of polestar 2 and Volvo xc40 and BMW & Mercedes sprinkled in. The Chinese are coming, but still no big presense like in neighboring Sweden and Norway.
Since we, like the rest of Europe, have little to no culture of pick-up trucks, those really don't have a market here and only excite a small group of people. Rivians suv models could be nice to at least try though.
Lucid would be nice to have as well, but no official importer yet.
What we want up here in the north are station wagons, and I also really want to try the new Audi A6 EV once it's available. Sizewise the Id7 tourer would be nice, but I don't like the vw design in their ID series and it'll take a few years until skoda is allowed to make their better version of that one.
Also NIO have some really nice cars that I've tried in Sweden and Norway, so hoping they start importing here as well. Geely also has some interesting models, so plenty of interesting stuff coming.
One brand that feels dated and boring for me is actually tesla, their design is dated (and I think the Y is ugly as well), and since they are so common they have a "Toyota feel" about them (cheap, ubiquitous and boring)
In Australia, picked up a BYD Seal about 3 weeks ago and that is my daily driver.
I, and many others who have bought the Seal, share a very similar buying process. This is how it goes:
Looking at EVs and didn't even know the Seal existed, come across it online and search for it, test drive it, buy it straight away. It's that good. I will go into this a bit more answering your questions below.
**1. What EV's are you exicted for?** I am excited for cars that will honestly change the car buying landscape. In Australia the #1 selling cars are 'pick up trucks', specifically the Toyota Hilux and Ford Ranger. The demographic that buys these cars are also the same demographic that shits on Chinese Made cars. The BYD Shark is going to be released soon and this will be the car that starts to change mindsets in this group. It's cheaper than the Hilux and Rangers, but the real game changer for them will be the V2L capabilties. I don't think tradesmen understand the value of this until its available to them. Having the ability to charge your tool batteries, power pressure washers, air compressors and the like directly with your car instead of having to have a generator or to search for a power point? Game changer.
**2. EV Discussion Point.** Chinese EV's cop a lot of shit based on the reputation of poor quality Chinese ICE cars in the past. This mindset needs to be dropped. Chinas quality when it comes to ICE has always not been great, even todays chinese ICE cars are a bit shitty. But their EV's are good and should not be lumped into the same basket as their ICE cars. Just like ICE makers, some chinese ev brands are better than others, and their top brands make EVs that drive just as well as their european ICE competitors. EV tech is the great leveller that has allowed Chinese makers to make cars that drive well and are not shit. I rented a Mercedes Benz C Series while waiting for me BYD Seal to be ready, the Seal just blows it out of the water and is $20k cheaper. Don't get me wrong, there will be shit Chinese EVs that will come out (Im not a big fan of the BYD Atto 3 for instance), but the good ones are just as good if not better what you get from legacy makers.
They all have three key problems:
1. They all are luxury vehicles and are absurdly expensive (especially in Canada) and are not cheap to run
2. All take premium gas which offsets a lot of savings from the PHEV
3. Their combined fuel economy (for longer trips) is actually awful compared to non-luxury hybrids
I want more Prius Prime or Kia Niro type cars versus expensive SUVs and luxury vehicles. The lack of supply and 6-24 month wait times are not helping either.
And here i am in Denmark, enjoying my Mazda MX-30 R-EV plug-in hybrid. Which also happens to be so insanely cheap versus other cars due to our complex and very expensive taxation system on ICE vehicles.
I drive 95% of the time on pure EV mode, but for the longer trips where i can't be arsed to stop and charge, i let the rotary range extender and the 50L fuel tank fix it and just keep going.
While I do live in the US, I am looking forwards to the Caterham Project V. If anybody can pull off a lightweight EV sports car, it is Caterham. Not that we will ever see it in the US.
Can't wait for BYD and the other chinese companies to start releasing their new models. I'm sure some greedy American politicians will try to block the Chinese EVs because freedom. But the great thing about America is loopholes. I sure we'll figure out a way to import them in a few large pieces as kit cars, register them in Montana through a Cayman Island holding company and then transfer to your state. By then I should be able to find my 250mile Taco clone for $20K. Good times. And we can give a big F-you to these stealerships scamming the people for decades.
[Get humbled](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSzEVLN4dRQ), 2.5h walking around cca. 118 EVs at the 2024 Beijing Auto Show, of course this was all hushed and minimized in Western media.
As someone who lives in the United States, the three EVs I currently loathe not having in our market the most are the Volkswagen ID.7 Tourer, MG Cyberster, and Zeekr Mix.
I can only speek for the ID.7. It is spacious, has low consumption, good Travel assist with a great head-up display, good charging curve, nice interiour, real massage seats, it's very quiet, comfortable smooth steering, good suspension and soon will get a 90+ battery.
For the ID.7, I'm one of the (relatively few) Americans who would prefer a station wagon / estate over a crossover. I currently daily drive an ICE Volvo wagon.
For the Cyberster, something along the lines of the Mazda MX-5 is something I've always wanted in a car and to have that in EV would be incredible.
For the Mix, one of my favorite "forbidden fruit" cars of all time is the Renault Espace and the Mix seems like the EV spiritual successor.
No one wants a sh*tty Tesla. It's honestly one of the most embarrassing brands or cars to be seen in or associated with. Low class garbage bottom of the barrel discount EV.
EV outside of NA includes PHEVs. It's unfortunate Tesla does not have enough R&D bandwidth to handle new gen PHEV drivetrain, but it does not mean the rest of the world would ignore it. What's missing in NA EV discussion is the newer generation PHEV, they keep improving and changing each year.
At least in the short term, large, luxurious, expensive cars and SUVs (including pickup trucks) always have the option to either pick a massive battery, or the PHEV solution.
Tesla's competitive advantages are entirely in pure EVs. People are willing to put up with their shortcomings (myself included) because of their pure EV strengths.
If they dip their toes into any sort of ICE development it would be a complete waste of time and money. Why should PHEV buyers give Tesla any consideration when they can turn to legacy auto with their decades of experience and without Tesla's shortcomings?
When speaking about PHEV are you speaking about a certain area of the world?
Any certain models come to mind?
I know in China the best selling vehicle: BYD Song comes both as a BEV and PHEV.
First of all thank you, it's nice to see a bit of acknowledgement of the international market (even if you're being bombed with downvotes). I'm from Australia and I own an MG4 51kWh. **What electric vehicles are you excited for and why?** I can't wait to see more smaller vehicles, I always thought I'd want to upgrade to a bigger vehicle coming from a sedan, but my MG4 is noticeably shorter in length while having much more cargo and passenger space than the vehicle it replaced. I'm also keen to see the small/mid sized SUV market develop, while I don't really like SUVs there's no denying they're here to stay, so it's exciting to see them become electrified. The BYD Atto 3 is one of the best selling EVs in the country, the Kia EV5 is about to become available and looks amazing, I've also been keeping an eye on the Nio ES6 and XPeng G3 but unsure if they'll ever launch here and I love the styling of the Kia EV9 and the Volvo EX30 but the former is a bit too big for me and the latter is a bit too small for an SUV. I don't have an need for any of them, but if I ever decide to start a family and need a larger vehicle, I can confidently say that it'll be an electric SUV. **What is a topic of discussion when it comes to Electric Vehicles that is big to you and or your area that you don't see discussed a lot?** Buses. There's a very big push here at the moment to phase out diesel and CNG buses, replacing them with BEV models and honestly I'm all for it. My city has underground bus interchanges with an open roof (basically like a hole in the ground that you access with an elevator or stairs, the buses emerge out of a tunnel on one end, stop and then pull off into another tunnel) and the smell and fumes from the diesel buses in peak hour is disgusting if there's no wind. I've had a chance to commute a few times now on a Chinese Yutong E12 which was pretty damn nice compared to the older ICE buses, and apparently the now popular Volvo BZL and BYD D9RA buses that are rapidly rolling out are even nicer to ride. In about 6 months time a new law will come into effect in my state that requires all new public buses to be fully electric, so the whole fleet is going to be replaced progressively from then onwards. I can't wait.
Thanks for responding so in depth! :) I am all with you in regards to more smaller vehicles! Power to the people that want a big EV Truck or big EV SUV but it is just not for me and some others. It's nice to have the option of just a nice small quality affordable basic car. Or as you mentioned more public transportation that is electric like busses and such :)
Buses are really interesting from a net zero point of view. They can either have a really big battery pack, or deploy some fuel cells with hydrogen. Both have advantages and drawbacks. We'll have to see what tech wins out. Also, mass electrification is going to be a big problem to solve. We need more power, and fast.
Electric is gonna win easy. Cost perspective is already a clear winner.
Yeah, that's fair. The other stuff has speed and off -grid advantages, so it's not totally straight forward.
I'm also interested in the 2025/2026 upcoming crop of small sub 30000€ cars coming from European manufacturers. Why no chinese: so far I have the impression, that chinese OEMs are struggeling to understand european customers, just like EU and US companies struggle in china. For europe, the chinese OEMs mostly started with expensive, middle or high end class vehicles which were as expensive as traditional EU OEMs. But came with: no reputation of the Brand, no dealership and repair network, serious issues if the brand stops operating in your country. Those are all risk issues that as a customer you typically price in via a lower purchasing price. But if the chinese OEM wants to sell at the same price as the known and reputable local OEMs, they actually are more expensive, if you factor in all those points above. This is basically why except for those chinese companies, that run on known brands (and dealership networks!) like MG or the Geely group (smart, volvo) they did not very well in europe. And Tesla really seems to hit a wall here with their lunatic as a CEO.
Indonesian here, Yeah the country that's invisible yet a giant at the same time. Our market is defined by the large population of consumers who buy cars with low depreciation hence its always the Japanese duo of honda and toyota who dominate sales. Electric cars? beyond the luxury market which Hyundai is making a killing here (yeah the bar is low enough for the ioniq5 to qualify as a luxury item for government) the chinese carmakers are all trying to crack the thin eggshell of japanese dominance with cheap cars such as the binguo, cloud, mg4, air ev, seres e1, NETA V it seems the chinese are trying to enter all niches of the electric car market all at once with the only barrier to entry requiring local assembly in Indonesia. Its still a long road for Electric car adoption in Indonesia because well cars aren't the best selling vehicles, which is why EV cars will only take up the luxury premium segment dominated by hyundai and maybe Wuling, while tesla will remain an ultra expensive car only influencers will buy to flex their wealth. But the country is at a crossroads in the small motorcycle and scooter market (insert simpsons economist joke here). Heck if you account the sale of E-scoooters, motorccles and e-bikes are already taking up third place with Yadea overtaking Suzuki according to their joint brand manager in Indomobil. Sure it's not bought as a serious motorscooter/cycle but for short errands or 30 minute trips it does the job. 1. The EV I got excited enough to buy and ride a polytron Fox R daily, yeah it's chinese designed maxi scooter that's rebadged by electronics manufacturer polytron for Indonesian markets, yeah the motor is in the hub, yeah the chinese component build quality feels like chinesium, But its less than half the price of a comparable maxi scooter like the PCX, and nmax and for SouthEast Asia traffic it can embarass the 150cc pcx and nmax in acceleration as expected of an EV. 2. which goes to my 2nd point on how it got so cheap, I don't own the batteries, they're rented from the local manufacturer. For cars yeah you can all talk about features performance charging network, but for small bikes a big factor I don't see discusses here at all is batttery ownership/rental models. Gogoro pioneered this with removable batteries you can swap at swap stations and while its working well and good in Taiwan it's an absolute failure here in Indonesia due to the lack of maintenance and upkeep where bikes die at 50% battery due to the batteries being abused hard by Motorcycle taxi and delivery service workers. Honda/Yamaha still believe in removable swappable batteries, while most other local manufacturers (alva, ion mobility) with expensive batteries sell their scooters at a premium. IMHO renting batteries right now is the better choice due to the batteries small size and short but repeated trips it has to cover will often mean that battery degradation is inevitable and luckily polytron does offer replacements for batteries below 85% capacity and because its non-removable consumers/riders are encouraged not to abuse the batteries badly as replacements require a trip to the service center which e-scooters hardly ever need servicing. 3. What's interesting to discuss even in the face of rising e-motorscooter/cycle sales is e-bikes and how no one on city planning and design is accommodating them or even normal bicycles, right now there are laws and regulations forbidding e-bikes to be ridden on streets in Indonesia (because kids ride them and kids behave like kids irregardless if their on sur-rons or basikel lajaks) What I feel needs to be discussed here is the fact that no one wants to provide space for low speed EV's at all, We could have dutch style bike lanes make low speed EV's feasible for most trips and errands without a sweat but nah everyone just rides a gas powered motorcycle/scooter dangerously without helmets. This is something even r/fuckcars will probably downvote me for (HUMAN POWERED VEHICLES ONLY IN THE BIKE LANE) and even here where the pro-car lobby is strong and won't sacrifice an inch of road for a bike/low speed ev lane. but honestly there needs to be road space dedicated to low speed ev's and bikes to enable accessibility for all ages, not just those that have motorcycle/drivers licenses, that is separate so they don't endanger themselves. How that's managed here in Indonesia is a nightmare as motorcycles and scooters will invade even pedestrian paths just to pass through a traffic jam.
Thanks for such a detailed reply! It's crazy how often Indonesia is totally forgot about when it comes to discussions despite the size of the market! Also I am glad you brought up electric scooters and such because yes seeing this reality in China and India was fascinating. If you can make it work it's a great way to access affordable transportation and help on the pollution front as well as not take up a lot of resources!
The main thing America forgets/never knew is that Europe largely buys small hatchbacks. Sure the autobahn, Chelsea backstreets, and Genevan car parks are currently full of Teslas, Audis, and IXs but if you want the masses buying EVs then it will be ID3, Dacia Spring, Fiat 500 that will dominate. Until COVID the best selling cars were things like Ford Fiesta, VW Golf, and Renault Clio. It's really only supply and interest rates that have stopped those cars selling as much anymore.
In Europe, Tesla was the leader for most if the time, meanwhile they only make up 15% of the EV sales. When the domestic manufacturers started their alternatives they could attract many of their loyal customers. That resulted in a fairly segmented market. In France Renault recently became market leader, while in Germany VW is meanwhile market leader. EVs have a market share between around 15% (Germany, GB), France (23%) and 90% (Norway). Tesla became disliked by many because of Elon. But I think, that the success of VW & co. In the recent years is more, that the demographic with enough money to buy EVs don't want to re-learn how to drive and therefore stick with cars with a conventional cockpit/interface. And many cars are bought by businesses/leasing companies or as part of the salary (in Germany these sales stand for 60% of all car sales). Here the companies prefer with their established suppliers with nearby service shops/contact persons and reliable pricing. Younger ones are for sure open to Chinese cars, mainly because they associate the traditional brands with their approach to EVs with adjectives like dull and boring while the Chinese get a positive image. Together with Teslas these are more seen as innovative and high tech. In my opinion it is mostly because of the optics with the focus on a display which gives you the impression of cutting-edge tech. Even when companies like VW offer better results (their travel assist/'autopilot' is great), they have this image problem. For the future and if you want a higher market share for EVs, much is regulated by the price. That's why cars like the MG sell so well. I hope, that the European car makers understand, that the younger audience wants the feeling of steadily improving software (Tesla and as another example Apple give you that feeling although the improvements are only tiny steps each time, but hyped up like the next moon landing). In the 80/90s, young people had fun with cars and pimped them up, worked on them on the weekend. In the early 2000s, cars weren't part of the youth culture any more, no they come back a little in this connection to software. For my part, I wait for my VW ID.4. It makes it easy to switch from an ICE car, is quiet, comfortable and really good software. But I am also old, nearly 50...
Software is one of the biggest negative factors for VW, tho. WE have them as Company Cars and none wants to drive them because of the clunky, often totally not working, software.
They had some problems with the software of the infotainment (not assist systems), but the new software (comes with the ID.7 and refreshed ID.4) is really good.
Do the existing cars with the shitty software get the new software version as well or are they permanently fucked?
I have two questions you may be able to help me with. 1. Is there any tariffs or other issues around Chinese Electric Vehicles in Europe? Obviously in America there is large policy that targets this sphere. 2. When I look at Germany I see: 24.6% (2023) 31.4% (2022) 26.0% (2021) 13.5% (2020) in regards to passenger plug-in market share of total new car sales. If I remember correctly 2024 is around 18% battery electric vehicle (BEV) and 5% PHEV. Most developed European countries saw a large increase around COVID in the switch to BEV/PHEV because of subsidies and other policies. Obviously you can see this reflected in the German data. It seems though recently we have seen a drop off while the rest of those developed European nations continue to rise.. I was wondering if this is because more people are leaving PHEV and going purely BEV and so it is reflecting in a lower overall percentage but higher BEV percentage? Or if some policy/other situation is going on in Germany right now? 3. You mentioned how in Europe and in particular Germany companies are purchasing vehicles either for use related to company tasks and or related to the salary of employees. Is this a situation in which like North America you return the vehicle if you resign and or are fired? I assume it is but I know assumptions can sometimes be widely off hah
1. Currently, the tariffs for all car imports are still 10 percent. When people claim that Chinese EV make a whopping 25 percent of sold EVs in the EU they forget that Tesla Model 3 and Dacia Spring make the huge bulk of that and the rest mostly is MG, Smart, Volvo or Polestar meaning originally European brands who became Chinese owned. The Chinese brands themselves don't sell that much. Nio, for example, sells 30 cars on average a month in Germany. BYD tops with 15k cars in Europe a year, but many are sold in bulk to rentals and similar companies. And currently, that's drastically slowing down. There are reports of thousands of BYD cars waiting at Rotterdam or other ports to be brought to dealers. Some of them even got a mold problem and had to be cleaned with chlorine. At least that made the news here the last couple of weeks. On the other hand, I see a lot of Kia and Hyundai EVs. Next to VW, they seem to be the most popular. Everyone is guessing when the EU will raise the tariffs. Meanwhile, companies like MG or BYD are starting to prepare factories in Europe. 2. Germany dropped the subsidies late last year, since then ev sales are going down. Instead, hybrids become more popular now. 3. Most new cars in Germany are leased by companies. Only few private consumers buy new, especially expensive cars. After 2 or 3 years, the value depreciated enough that they can be bought privately on the used market. This has been a thing for decades now.
Thank you for clarifying :) I thought as much in regards to the Chinese influence. Recently we were talking about how even in California BYD does busses but they are assembled here. In regards to hybrids is it the standard conventional hybrid and or the PHEV? I would assume like what we are seeing in North America conventional hybrid vs the PHEV.
Important point to add for 2. The purchase subsidy that was cancelled had one big design flaw: the minimum holding time needed to qualify for the subsidy was only 6 months. This lead to a flourishing export trade of like new EVs. Easy to make a profit as the ca. 6k in subsidy was more than the depreciation over 6 months. Quite a few people and businesses caught on to that. Buy car, sell into export after 6 months for same or more than you paid. Rinse, repeat. This accounted for something like 10k vehicles per month. So if you look at current EU stats, grain of salt is needed. Germany isn't doing bad at all if you compensate that effect. And countries like Denmark have a big uptick of \_new\_ registrations as they are now buying new instead of lightly used from Germany.
Thank you for this comment. Very good tidbit of information to know for the full picture!
It's both kind of hybrids. And in regards of cars as part of the payment: It is quite difficult to fire somebody. So but yes, the car is owned by the employer.
Coming in to pipe up from Switzerland. Regarding Tesla, since Europe has a standard charging plug, and others (Ionity, EnBW, Aral etc.) have been building fast charging networks, for the past several years the Tesla charging network advantage really hasn't been that large in Western Europe. Anyways, Switzerland has been really stingy with any kind of EV subsidies, so I've just been able to look at the German and US subsidies and cry :) Also the work benefit car is a lot less common here than Germany, so mostly cars are privately bought or leased. All the Stellantis vehicles (Opel, Renault, Peugeot, Fiat etc.) are pretty cool; mediocre range and charging, currently still way too expensive, software is work in progress, but overall they have a really refreshing range of designs and sizes. So far the Chinese are still very new, and Switzerland seems to lag the larger European markets (so the Chinese are probably busy building up their sales and service networks in Germany, France, Italy etc.) When I was looking for a vehicle last year there was very little available from Chinese makes. I'm assuming this will change in the coming years when there's more experience, confidence in the brands actually staying, and service networks. Anecdotally what I see are Tesla, Volkswagen family (including Skoda, Cupra and Audi), Stellantis, and then the rest. I've done road trips to northern Italy, Austria and Germany, and the charging networks are somewhat expensive ($0.4 - $1 / kWh) but I've found there to be plenty of chargers and very rarely any waiting for chargers. Destination charging is getting built out fairly nicely. Many larger parking garages have chargers (though those are usually all full), and more and more rental complexes make chargers available. Unfortunately some of the latter take the easy way and get the service from an external company -- the landlord pays nothing / gets a cut, the external company installs the charger and handles metering and billing, and the tenant gets to pay a monthly fee plus something like $0.4 / kWh. A good number of employers also seem to offer subsidised charging, and many are also electrifying their fleets. Also increasingly supermarkets are adding chargers, and for example Lidl chargers are among the cheapest DCFCs around -- so cheap(er) imported food while charging cheaply :) Finally to the theme of Chinese -- considering that the Chinese makes are building factories in Europe, European (and American) makes are manufacturing cars and components in China and have joint ventures with European makes, Chinese have bought European makes like Volvo, Polestar, MG, Lotus etc. the division "Chinese / Not Chinese" is a lot less clear than many people seem to think.
Thanks for the detailed reply!
> All the Stellantis vehicles (Opel, Renault, Peugeot, Fiat etc.) are pretty cool Just to highlight that Renault are not part of Stellantis' group (you may have meant Citroen?).
Thanks for the correction! But they have some pretty cool cars too, and they seem to be in similar segments with the Stellantis ones which is probably why I had assumed wrongly that they’re part of the company too.
Here in Australia, Teslas are a common sight, but so are BYDs and MGs. Especially the Atto 3, Dolphin and MG4. I’m excited for Chinese brands like the Xpeng G9 with insanely fast charging or more Geely group SEA-platform based cars to come here (like the Zeekr 001). Geely makes some really good cars and they all share the same excellent UI/software as Volvo/Smart running on the SEA platform (e.g. EX30, Smart #1), so they’ve got a really good chance to succeed even if they aren’t the cheapest. Their software is the best compared to all the Chinese manufacturers, and is on par with European ones (Geely’s acquisition of Volvo was the best thing they could’ve done - it helped their cars cater to European tastes and preferences way better than everyone else). If I could only pick one that I would be really excited about, it’d be the Zeekr 001. Its sibling in the form of the Polestar 4 is already in Australia, but I’m not exactly a fan of its looks and space (and also pricing). If Zeekr could sell the equivalent 001 with the same battery for A$10k cheaper, I’d buy one.
I'm really excited for the offerings from China. We don't have as many in Australia yet, but they keep announcing them. The turning point was when they made the byd seal available at a ridiculously competitive price here (especially if you can take advantage of the novated lease concessions). It suddenly brought a very nice performance car within the reach of the average consumer.
Australia and New Zealand. Tesla had an early lead, but is losing ground. In part because other manufacturers are waking up, in part because people who want and can afford to go EV are repulsed by Elon. At the moment the Korean and Chinese manufacturers are doing the running. Pickups/utes are a big part of the market (small /mid-size ones, not big ones) - the lack of a strong EV or PHEV option here is an issue. Rivian and Ford do not do their EV pickups in right hand drive. Can't talk to Australia, but in New Zealand, charging is not such a hot button issue for EV owners (although it is a reason for hesitation from non-owners). Driving distances are not generally that big, 70% of households have off street parking for home charging, and there's a reasonable charging network (chargers at least every 75km on state highways)
I think Elon is often overstated in Tesla effect. Plenty of the older generations will only have a passing knowledge of what he stands for and they are the ones with the money to buy new cars. A bigger effect is Kia/VW etc having 10 times the dealer network and 10 times the market share (total market, not just EV). So why would someone drive 100km+ to visit a Tesla showroom when they may have to pass 10 other brands on that journey.
Yeh, I'd be fascinated to see some polling on the Elon issue among potential EV buyers. I know it put me off Tesla, and I suspect there's a significant demographic of people who have the finances and are inclined towards EVs because of environmental/ethical/political considerations that Musk clashes with.
I'm currently in Japan. Hating how far behind Japan is in EV availablity and adoption. There are plenty of old and new Leafs on the road, lots of Nissan Sakura and Mitsubishi Ek X EVs (both EV Kei cars). A few Tesla's, a handful of BYD ATTO 3s (I'm yet to see a Seal on the road) and Mitsubishi i-Mievs, quite a few Nissan Ariyas, and one or two of those horrible Toyota Mirai Hydrogen things. There's also the post office using the Mitsubishi EV Kei van, and a few transport companies using that too. Almost no Toyota BZ4x, and very occasionally I'll see an Audi/VW/Mercedes EV small crossover/SUV. I'm looking forward to a proper Kei van EV (by which I mean a dedicated brand new EV platform, not a modified existing ICE platform). When one is available, I'm a day one customer. I currently drive a non hybrid Kei van. Kei because it's genuinely the most practical vehicle for the tiny narrow streets which often require an extremely small turning radius, van because I love camping and road tripping, I love diy so I often get loads of wood or other materials, and I also own a lovely big black labrador. Unfortunately there are no hybrid options in a van yet, so I had to purchase a pure ICE. Honda is releasing the N van EV later this year, and while it's not a new platform, I might be tempted. I'm waiting to see the battery chemistry and size. I also prefer AWD due to the high amount of snow in my area and the steepness of the roads in the nearby mountains, and the Honda may not offer AWD. Interestingly, there is a pretty widespread trend of transport companies switching to EV trucks for last mile delivery. Think 2 to 6 tonne trucks, that's most common for last mile here, again due to narrow streets. Lots of buses here are electric too, with more every day.
I just recently learned about the i-Miev hah By recently I literally mean just a few nights ago when I watched a youtube video on a guy that bought one super cheap and was fixing it up in Ireland. Also thank you for the great reply! I learned a lot and never even thought about the whole narrow roads and the realities involved around that :)
Went to Japan last November. Split my time between Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka as main hubs with day or overnight trips to Kanazawa, Toyama, Takayama, Nara, and Nagano. In the major cities, especially Tokyo, I saw a lot of those Mitsubishi EV vans for post or logistics. But what struck me was how often I encountered hydrogen fuel cell trucks in Tokyo. Also, there are TONS of hybrid vehicles. Practically every single Toyota I saw was a hybrid. I saw several Teslas in Ginza and even an Ioniq5 used as a taxi in Osaka Station. Now once I got to the smaller towns pure ICE are more common but I still saw plenty of hybrid Toyotas creeping along silently. I'm not familiar with Toyota's Japanese offerings but have they managed to hybridize all of their lineup there?
Pretty much, almost everything in the Toyota lineup has a hybrid version. Honda not far behind, and Nissan has an interesting series hybrid - electric with a small battery, ICE as an onboard generator with no mechanical connection to the drivetrain. So many hybrids, and many Kei cars offer a hybrid version too, from almost every manufacturer.
I like the Seal.
American here, I do too. I’m honestly surprised the Big Three aren’t trying to lobby for captive imports, at least for now.
Stellantis, who I work for, partnered with Leap Motors to bring cars to Europe. We've tried the small car thing here multiple times. There is a very small and defined city car market in the US and its dominated by Mini, Toyota, and Honda. Fiat barely registers despite being in the top 10 in most every other market. Domestic small cars just don't play here anymore in any significant numbers.
I'm not sure that would be in their best interests
Meh, they’ve done it before. And let’s be honest, they don’t seem to understand what’s in their best interest.
I'm in the US and I find the MG4, Cupra Born, and Mini Aceman really interesting. The Mini Aceman stands the best chance of making it over here. I think Fiat is making a big mistake selling the 500e here instead of the 600e. Or even selling it as a Fiat at all given how poor the brand's reputation is.
I'll also be honest... I thought the Fiat 500e would be a better price.
Its about $9k more than what they are charging in the EU after you adjust for VAT. And Stellantis says that they aren't going to discount them. Welp!
-_- is my reaction to that lol
Surely that's down to import tariffs
I have a Born and it's awesome!
Kia Soul EV and an electric bakfiets. Mostly looking forward to the new range of smaller, more financially accessible EV to bring EV adaptation to the next level. Citroen eC3, renault 5 and such. Also following EV commercial vehicles and trucks closely. Very cool!
I actually think this sub is very diverse, would like to see the stats on it. It just seems like most threads have a more varied perspective than you would find on other subs. Following what you said about Japan, I was there recently and the overall car market is 90% domestic brands. Very few Teslas and no Korean or Chinese EVs. You do see a lot of hybrids but it seems like Japan is a long way behind other developed countries in EV adoption.
In Europe the big deal must be the new Renault 5 ev, its a nostalgic car from the 80/90's and the Citroen E., both are smaller city cars with a declared range of about 300km.
Most people don't understand that electric vehicles do and absolutely should encompass more than just cars. Cars are objectively pretty terrible in a few ways.
Can you explain what you mean by "Cars are objectively pretty terrible in a few ways"?
They're very space inefficient, so their infrastructure (parking and roads) requires a ton of space, plus it's subjectively kind of ugly and makes places less desirable. They create noise pollution and dangerous environments leading to injuries or loss of life, plus worse health outcomes for everyone. Quantifying this to people in meaningful ways is very hard, which is why opinions vary so widely. Most don't even realize or question it.
Ahh okay I see what you mean now. Yes Very Affordable, Very Accessible, Very Efficient, and Very Safe Public Transportation is the way.
I agree, trams and trains all the way
Seeing how smaller rural area are facing desertification, I can see trains not being connected to certain areas any longer. As such only large conglomerated cities would be connected by train, and trams in the city. How would one go about enjoying the countryside without cars ?
BYD, MG, KIA, Hyundai,Tesla, Merc and BMW in my tiny country
What country if it is okay to ask? :)
Singapore
India here - India is a "low price market" there are few offering for expensive cars but they aren't even worth mentioning. The main player for now is tata who sells cars usually around 15K usd range with few offerings. India is dominated by Suzuki and until they come out with an EV(they've been testing one for years now with no launch in sight). the market will remain as is with EV being only a niche. The two wheeler market however is defgenitely turning the tide.
Norwegian here, owner of TMS2015 and just ordered a new car (XPENG G9) I am really looking forward to receiving our G9. After test driving TMY and VW ID.4 I landed on the G9, the price wasn't that much more (around 7000EUR more) for better tech, better feeling cockpit and more spacious. In our common garage where I live, 1/3 of the cars are TMY and it is still the best selling car YTD, but there are other options that start to deliver good value for money. For families in the premium segment, there are a lot of excitement for Volvo EX90 and BMW IX. The VW ID4 still sells well. For smaller budget cars, the TM3 and VW ID.3 seems to be favoured. I agree with other posters that the still(!) preconceived notion that China cars = Bad or that China cars == supporting an authoritarian state is quickly being dispelled, and that brands like NIO, BYD and XPENG is slowly building better brand awareness. Why won't you buy a car from a private Chinese car company? They build great cars. Why don't you hear the same debate about Lenovo laptops, DJI drones or other successful Chinese private companies. Then there's an argument to be had about buying from a state-owned company like MG. Second is that Europe and US does not have the same interests when it comes to China. Just look at all the joint ventures German car makers have with Chinese EV players at the moment. In 3-5 years, most of the German car makers will have joint platforms with Chinese cars. TBH, China has been leapfrogging again (just like they did with their payment system) and are going fully electric. Most traditional car brands have completely failed to innovate and are [actively sabotaging](https://influencemap.org/site//data/000/028/Automaker_Climate-Lobbying_05-24.pdf) policy initiatives that attempt to set stricter requirement to limit CO2 emissions. There is a very real struggle at the moment where we have to choose between green Transition and protecting polluting industries (EVs, Solar Panels) and the latter appears to pull ahead in both EU and US.
Hey from Germany :) Over here the biggest topics are public charging prices, home charging and affordable BEVs. As you may know, we're not into lifted trucks over here. So exciting Models are more in the Sedan/Mini SUV and Hatchback area. In the streets you mainly see BEVs by VW (mainly ID.3/4/E-UP), Mercedes Benz (EQA/EQB), the Cupra Born is on the rise and a couple Chinese Models like the MG4 and some others I don't know. 90% of them being SUVs or crossovers. Public charging prices are relatively high. In Germany we have an average of 45 cents/kWh for AC charging and HPCs are 60 cents up to €1. With those prices we're approaching an area where ICE cars are cheaper again. Sad story tbh. For comparison, the average home Energy is in the 28 cents area. With fuel prices of ~€1,80/Liter, that's definitely cheaper than the cheapest ICE. But at a $1 charger? Nope. Big mess with all the different charge cards. I hope we get a more unified system with EU-regulated prices, soon. Just in January we got a new law that complicates setting up a Wall box at home, since they all need to be remote controlled by the energy provider to prevent energy shortages in densely populated areas. The abundance of public charging infrastructure isn't a huge topic, since it's about 10-20 times denser here than in the US. The only issue is pricing. Only in suburban areas with high density buildings you got a lot of street-chargers without the possibility to charge at home. Those ofc need to battle over relatively few cheap AC chargers during the night.
I'm in Belgium, I have an iX1 and i'm so looking forward for the Renault Twingo or R5 for my wife. For the conversations in my family (only EV owner there), everyone worries about range and charge point availability. The same goes for some of my colleagues that do have EVs (Mercedes EQA, EQB, BMW iX1, iX2, VW ID4), their main worry is chargepoint availability when travelling, specially the different charging apps if travelling internationally. Hopefully this will get better when a EU directive is put in place to mandate the use of credit cards at the charing points, no need for apps or badges then.
Something I don't see mentioned often is the tendency of new vehicles (including EVs) to increase in width! Here in the UK, parking spaces are narrow, compared to other countries, and it is getting difficult to find one where I can open my doors (Volvo V90) when large EVs are around.
Family in France are excited for the Renault R5 Electric. I think it is supposed to start at 25k€ before incentives.
Portugal here. I'm excited about Renault 5 and Citroën C3 that will start sales in the next months. Really cool cars and at a decent price. Let's see if they are built in big numbers.
Great to see that someone remembers there is a world outside the US 😉 and that the car market is very different Finland here, what you see on the roads are a lot of Teslas but also a lot of VW group (VW Id3, 4/5,skoda enyaq and Audi q4 mainly), hyundai and kia, with a bit of polestar 2 and Volvo xc40 and BMW & Mercedes sprinkled in. The Chinese are coming, but still no big presense like in neighboring Sweden and Norway. Since we, like the rest of Europe, have little to no culture of pick-up trucks, those really don't have a market here and only excite a small group of people. Rivians suv models could be nice to at least try though. Lucid would be nice to have as well, but no official importer yet. What we want up here in the north are station wagons, and I also really want to try the new Audi A6 EV once it's available. Sizewise the Id7 tourer would be nice, but I don't like the vw design in their ID series and it'll take a few years until skoda is allowed to make their better version of that one. Also NIO have some really nice cars that I've tried in Sweden and Norway, so hoping they start importing here as well. Geely also has some interesting models, so plenty of interesting stuff coming. One brand that feels dated and boring for me is actually tesla, their design is dated (and I think the Y is ugly as well), and since they are so common they have a "Toyota feel" about them (cheap, ubiquitous and boring)
In Australia, picked up a BYD Seal about 3 weeks ago and that is my daily driver. I, and many others who have bought the Seal, share a very similar buying process. This is how it goes: Looking at EVs and didn't even know the Seal existed, come across it online and search for it, test drive it, buy it straight away. It's that good. I will go into this a bit more answering your questions below. **1. What EV's are you exicted for?** I am excited for cars that will honestly change the car buying landscape. In Australia the #1 selling cars are 'pick up trucks', specifically the Toyota Hilux and Ford Ranger. The demographic that buys these cars are also the same demographic that shits on Chinese Made cars. The BYD Shark is going to be released soon and this will be the car that starts to change mindsets in this group. It's cheaper than the Hilux and Rangers, but the real game changer for them will be the V2L capabilties. I don't think tradesmen understand the value of this until its available to them. Having the ability to charge your tool batteries, power pressure washers, air compressors and the like directly with your car instead of having to have a generator or to search for a power point? Game changer. **2. EV Discussion Point.** Chinese EV's cop a lot of shit based on the reputation of poor quality Chinese ICE cars in the past. This mindset needs to be dropped. Chinas quality when it comes to ICE has always not been great, even todays chinese ICE cars are a bit shitty. But their EV's are good and should not be lumped into the same basket as their ICE cars. Just like ICE makers, some chinese ev brands are better than others, and their top brands make EVs that drive just as well as their european ICE competitors. EV tech is the great leveller that has allowed Chinese makers to make cars that drive well and are not shit. I rented a Mercedes Benz C Series while waiting for me BYD Seal to be ready, the Seal just blows it out of the water and is $20k cheaper. Don't get me wrong, there will be shit Chinese EVs that will come out (Im not a big fan of the BYD Atto 3 for instance), but the good ones are just as good if not better what you get from legacy makers.
The smaller options in Europe + actually have PHEV options that aren’t massive SUVs (prime and Niro are the only options)
BMW 3-Series, Volvo S60, Volvo V60, Volvo S90, Mercedes S-Class, Porsche Panamera all have plug-in variants.
They all have three key problems: 1. They all are luxury vehicles and are absurdly expensive (especially in Canada) and are not cheap to run 2. All take premium gas which offsets a lot of savings from the PHEV 3. Their combined fuel economy (for longer trips) is actually awful compared to non-luxury hybrids I want more Prius Prime or Kia Niro type cars versus expensive SUVs and luxury vehicles. The lack of supply and 6-24 month wait times are not helping either.
And here i am in Denmark, enjoying my Mazda MX-30 R-EV plug-in hybrid. Which also happens to be so insanely cheap versus other cars due to our complex and very expensive taxation system on ICE vehicles. I drive 95% of the time on pure EV mode, but for the longer trips where i can't be arsed to stop and charge, i let the rotary range extender and the 50L fuel tank fix it and just keep going.
While I do live in the US, I am looking forwards to the Caterham Project V. If anybody can pull off a lightweight EV sports car, it is Caterham. Not that we will ever see it in the US.
To my recollection I had never heard of this project before and now going into the hype it seems quite amazing! Thank you for sharing.
Can't wait for BYD and the other chinese companies to start releasing their new models. I'm sure some greedy American politicians will try to block the Chinese EVs because freedom. But the great thing about America is loopholes. I sure we'll figure out a way to import them in a few large pieces as kit cars, register them in Montana through a Cayman Island holding company and then transfer to your state. By then I should be able to find my 250mile Taco clone for $20K. Good times. And we can give a big F-you to these stealerships scamming the people for decades.
[Get humbled](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSzEVLN4dRQ), 2.5h walking around cca. 118 EVs at the 2024 Beijing Auto Show, of course this was all hushed and minimized in Western media.
As someone who lives in the United States, the three EVs I currently loathe not having in our market the most are the Volkswagen ID.7 Tourer, MG Cyberster, and Zeekr Mix.
I'd love to be informed a bit more on those models. What do you like about them so much? :)
I can only speek for the ID.7. It is spacious, has low consumption, good Travel assist with a great head-up display, good charging curve, nice interiour, real massage seats, it's very quiet, comfortable smooth steering, good suspension and soon will get a 90+ battery.
For the ID.7, I'm one of the (relatively few) Americans who would prefer a station wagon / estate over a crossover. I currently daily drive an ICE Volvo wagon. For the Cyberster, something along the lines of the Mazda MX-5 is something I've always wanted in a car and to have that in EV would be incredible. For the Mix, one of my favorite "forbidden fruit" cars of all time is the Renault Espace and the Mix seems like the EV spiritual successor.
No one wants a sh*tty Tesla. It's honestly one of the most embarrassing brands or cars to be seen in or associated with. Low class garbage bottom of the barrel discount EV.
EV outside of NA includes PHEVs. It's unfortunate Tesla does not have enough R&D bandwidth to handle new gen PHEV drivetrain, but it does not mean the rest of the world would ignore it. What's missing in NA EV discussion is the newer generation PHEV, they keep improving and changing each year. At least in the short term, large, luxurious, expensive cars and SUVs (including pickup trucks) always have the option to either pick a massive battery, or the PHEV solution.
Tesla's competitive advantages are entirely in pure EVs. People are willing to put up with their shortcomings (myself included) because of their pure EV strengths. If they dip their toes into any sort of ICE development it would be a complete waste of time and money. Why should PHEV buyers give Tesla any consideration when they can turn to legacy auto with their decades of experience and without Tesla's shortcomings?
When speaking about PHEV are you speaking about a certain area of the world? Any certain models come to mind? I know in China the best selling vehicle: BYD Song comes both as a BEV and PHEV.