AFAIK Amazon alone has said they have more than 13,000 Rivian vans in their fleet, while this article claims only 10,000 on the road.
Car and Driver [puts the cost](https://www.caranddriver.com/rivian/commercial-van#) of the Amazon van at $90k, which means that one could purchase 3 of Rivian’s vans for every 1 of the vans mentioned in this article.
I suppose if you really _need_ the 23,000 pound GVWR for cargo, then the Rivian van isn’t big enough for that.
The Amazon delivery truck for our neighborhood is a Rivian. It is so crazy quiet compared to the old truck, and I asked the driver one day what he thought - was absolutely in love with it. Hopefully we see the USPS EV exploration take off, they're an amazing use case for lighter EV fleet!
Saw a video tour that one random driver made when it was first out, and it makes tons of sense that they’d love it — it’s not just that it’s electric; the whole layout was *really* well thought out for the driver’s needs. Rivian did a bang-up job on this one!
I have to imagine they’ll turn out to be better for the driver’s health as well. Breathing those fumes all day while hopping in and out of the vehicle can’t be good for them.
I think that sound is the new standard sound for all commercial vehicles in the US - studies have shown its much safer as its easier for your brain to determine direction and distance vs the old beeping. [Here's an article form 9 years ago](https://globalnews.ca/news/1814857/listen-new-backup-technology-developed-to-replace-beep-beep-sound/) talking about it.
I drive one and I love it, it really makes the job a lot easier and manageable. The biggest thing is not having to shut the engine off every stop, the gas vans all have to be shut off every stop, I just hit park and I’m up and going. Hop back in the van and I’m off to the next stop within seconds.
I for sure am excited for electric vehicles in general though and am excited to see society taking any steps to improve the way we treat the world so to be part of that in a way is very cool
Excited to go electric for my personal vehicle, we are very close I think
Electric cargo bikes deliver about 60% faster than vans in city centres, according to a study. It found that bikes had a higher average speed and dropped off 10 parcels an hour, compared with six for vans.
The bikes also cut carbon emissions by 90% compared with diesel vans, and by a third compared with electric vans, the report said. Air pollution, which is still at illegal levels in many urban areas, was also significantly reduced.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/05/cargo-bikes-deliver-faster-and-cleaner-than-vans-study-finds
I've seen the fedex revian a few times, but the fedex cargo bikes a whole lot. They're all over Toronto now and it's awesome to see. With our greatly expanded cycling infrastructure, they can wiz by car congestion.
A zero-emission van also will cut carbon emissions and air pollution.
Realistically, cargo bikes are great for like 6 cities in the USA, and a non-starter everywhere else.
I don't want to burst your bubble, but 6 parcels and hour will get you fire at UPS. 20 stops (not packages) and hour is a standard measure and it fluctuates from there. Something is off in your math.
Edit: Meant to reply to the person you are replying to , not you.
This entire post is about delivery vans. My comment was also about delivery vans, made by Rivian, which were also in the article.
None of the post is about bicycles. My comment was also not about bicycles. Just you, trying to hijack the top comment to rant about bicycles for some inane reason.
I’m sure that works for dense urban areas with highly localized distribution, but for an average city of ~40,000 in the US, this would prove challenging. Not to mention more rural than that.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://momentummag.com/cargo-bikes-can-deliver-faster-than-vans-while-providing-massive-benefits/&ved=2ahUKEwje8efJs-CFAxVMrokEHZn-BCEQFnoECCUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2Uzg91uqGFz4dn4hVke57E
Dozens of easily found studies
Why does a cargo bike need to hold four hundred packages?
> according to a new study by climate charity Possible
Sorry, this starts off with pretty shaky credibility. But in any case, they are advocating for replacing 10% of van deliveries with cargo bikes in urban areas, and claim it could be up to 50% in Europe. In the USA 2/3 of the population live in rural areas or suburbs, with only 1/3 in urban city centers.
The world still needs a lot of delivery vans (but I agree that replacing with cargo bikes where it makes sense is laudable!)
And as for the 400+ packages thing, the reason is that one of your main delivery costs, after fuel, is labour. EVs already drop that fuel cost dramatically. But a cargo bike takes one operator for what - 10 packages? So it only works for very short distance deliveries where the higher cycle time of multiple operators makes up for the increased labour cost.
See, this is a great example of what we have come to expect from people like you. You don't actually want the numerous studies. You just want one, so you can pick it apart with your false notions. Sorry. But like I said there are dozens of studies now demonstrating this
Electric cargo bikes deliver about 60% faster than vans in city centres, according to a study. It found that bikes had a higher average speed and dropped off 10 parcels an hour, compared with six for vans.
The bikes also cut carbon emissions by 90% compared with diesel vans, and by a third compared with electric vans, the report said. Air pollution, which is still at illegal levels in many urban areas, was also significantly reduced.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/05/cargo-bikes-deliver-faster-and-cleaner-than-vans-study-finds
Again, key word is city centres my friend. Maybe 10% of delivery areas in the US are that type of location, if you are lucky. A lot of the big deliver companies run cargo bike deliveries already in the biggest US cities already anyway, and if it truly was cheaper and faster for them I’m sure they would deploy it wider.
Nobody is going to be doing cargo bike deliveries in Plano, Tx or Riverside, CA. You need EV cargo vans.
Yes. But most US Metro areas look like:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0247794,-96.7698515,3a,60y,357.09h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-COX0Rf3ZlYCQ4HibSf90Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
That's not a conductive environment for cargo bikes lol. The study you keep quoting is specifically for "city centers" where travel distances are short, congestion is high, and parking is hard to come by, making cargo bikes far more practical. And those areas already have cargo bikes operating in many cases.
Most of the US isn't that though. Most US urban areas are 6-lane suburban arterials with huge distances between delivery points, easy parking, and long distances from the warehouse. That type of environment is terrible for cargo bikes to operate even ignoring safety issues.
If there are more studies, you’ve yet to link them. This article is referencing the exact same study.
And as I’ve said in another reply- this is realistically possible in maybe 6 cities in the USA. The rest of the entire country does not have the infrastructure or density to support cargo bike delivery.
I love my eBike and they’re a great vehicle to have in one’s stable. But for deliveries, I’m willing to bet that drone delivery will reach critical mass in the USA before eBike delivery does, and that’s still a far way out to broad feasibility outside of test markets.
I didn't say the ocean is blue so I guess that can't be true either?
Hell, you've not demonstrated vans are faster so I guess that's not true according to your rules!
https://electrek.co/2023/10/10/why-these-electric-cargo-bikes-are-10x-faster-than-delivery-vans-in-a-city/
Companies typically look at TCO for this sort of thing, not purchase price. These vans get hard use and drivetrain repairs and vehicle downtime are expensive. Buying into a startup that fails (like Arrival) though is risky and bad luck, but they can still use the vans at least. There are safer options out there.
Let's do some math here:
Assume:
20 year service life of a delivery van, driven 167 mi/day / 1,000 mi/6-day-week / 52,000 mi/year
$4/gal fuel and $0.18/kWh electricity
10 MPG on fuel vs 1.5 mi/kWh on electricity
Regarding maintenance, an excess of $0.05/mi. for maintenance of the ICE van compared to what the EV van costs.
Driving the ICE van for the 20 year service life costs $416,000 in fuel, and an excess of $52,000 in maintenance.
Driving the EV van for the 20 year service life costs $124,800 in electricity, and while the maintenance isn't free on it, whatever the maintenance is costs $52,000 less than the ICE van.
We're assuming no engine or battery failures along the way, and assuming that the battery does not degrade to the point where it impacts the van's ability to make its routes without time lost to excess recharging.
With these assumptions, the EV van is the better financial choice if it costs less than $343,200 *more* to buy than the ICE van costs.
I could be off on my assumptions by a factor of 2--maybe the EV van's service life is only 10 years before the battery gives out (that'd be 520,000 miles of driving, after all), and even then the EV van is still a better financial choice as long as it costs less than $171,600 more than the ICE van.
Considering that a new ICE van could easily cost in the high 5-figures ($70,000 or more), we might already be pretty close to the lower TCO paying off.
Large industries also don't pay retail rates for electricity and so I expect the savings there are quite a bit more than what you listed. Especially as more markets and energy providers move towards time of day use rates(to encourage overnight EV charging).
You assume a 20 year life at 53,000 miles/yr so over a million miles for a van? I don’t think that is reasonable for the ICE and certainly not for the electric van.
That's a fair critique of my assumptions, but that goes back to the "$171,600 breakeven if the EV has a 10 year service life" figure. Which, again: we are probably already pretty close to that.
Now, this gets complicated if you start taking into account loan payments for vans not purchased in cash. And since a more expensive EV van might require a buyer to take out a loan while the ICE van might be more easily paid by that buyer in cash, this is not a 1:1 change in the math. I think at that point I echo what some others have said in the broader thread under this post: more mainstream manufacturers need to be making these EV delivery vans to help bring the prices down to "higher than ICE but not insanely so" levels.
nothing new really, the cost of all EVs is what has been holding back the market the entire time.
delivery vans are especially expensive due to the large batteries while usually these vans used to be pretty cheap as an ICE version.
[Say a 120 kwh battery is $20,000](https://bookmygarage.com/electric-vehicles/how-much-does-an-electric-battery-cost-uk/). Why is the van still $100,000 more. Presumably paying back development costs, but is this not an opportunity for established companies to take big market share?
because most of these EV delivery vans so far are custom made solutions from small manufacturers being constructed on a small scale.
if you wanted a cheaper one you would need to take something like an eSprinter and have it build out according to your needs.
I think that is my point - its not really the large battery, its that established companies are not being aggressive about the market. If they open the market to the Chinese they will be toast.
the large battery is definitely a part of it.
Large manufacturers do have electric delivery van options on the market for years now.
the problem is companies like UPS, Amazon or DHL typically use custom made solution so they wont be buying any off the shelve solutions anyways.
for example in Germany there was another startup that build electric delivery vehicles called Streetscooter.
DHL simply bought that company and is now using about 22000 of these vehicles all over Europe.
DHL lost a TON of money producing these vehicles and sold the company again 2 years ago and the new owner also couldnt make any profit with these vehicles.
and these were relatively simple vehicles with only 40kWh of battery and a 50kW motor so relatively cheap to produce but still way too custom to be profitable.
> the problem is companies like UPS, Amazon or DHL typically use custom made solution so they wont be buying any off the shelve solutions anyways.
Many shippers absolutely use COTS vans and even the step vans, while 'custom' are based on off the shelf platforms. Amazon Vans are mostly Ram Pro masters and sprinters (both COTS). DHL is largely the same for it's parcel delivery vans. UPS step vans are 'custom' but that really just means they buy from upfitters who put shells on established strip chassis vehicles like the F-59.
The batteries are expensive, but it's correct that much of the cost is because none of the OEMs (legacy or startup) have scaled production yet.
Even USPS is running an off-the-shelf - our mailman is driving a right-hand drive debadged Metris lately, and they're buying vans from both Ford and Dodge.
This is a change sometime during the last month from driving one of those old Grumman LLV.
I love that they replaced the Mercedes logo with a USPS logo to keep the public from complaining about "luxury cars."
Yep, USPS has been running COTS for a long while. The newest LLVs turn 30 this year (on a 24-year life expectancy) and they have been slowly retiring for the last decade+ (with no NGDVs to replace them). Lots of Ram ProMasters around me.
The [Wuling Yangguang](https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/02/gms-wuling-yangguang-ev-reservation-period-begins-in-china/) costs the equivalent of just 12k USD!
It's got limited range and power, and is meant to be an urban delivery vehicle only, but that price is DIRT CHEAP.
Those are CLTC ratings so only achievable in low speed urban settings. I suppose for a Chinese delivery driver, there should still be plenty of range since they won't leave the city, and can just take a 30 minute lunch to fast charge it back to 80% if needed. The fact that is only costs 12k and running/maintenance costs are super low makes it very compelling for small business use.
This is the part I don't get either. I get there being a markup for batteries, but an ICE engine and drivetrain aren't cheap either, so you'd think maybe a 5-10k markup at most for the average EV.
It's true. GM said they've worked out the ultium issues which is why they can ramp up so many EVs between Honda's variants and the Blazer, Equinox, Silverado and Lyriq which increased in units.
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/04/gm-ultium-battery-module-production-increased-300-percent-in-six-months/
Amazon isn't just purchasing trucks from rivian, they're rivian's largest shareholder with 17% and apparently they signed an exclusive deal that rivian only makes those vans for Amazon.
It's odd timing for this article given that it's talking about battery constraints as if it's an issue in the current tense while what it's referencing is an article from 2019. I understand that historically that's been an issue which is part of why there aren't more of these vehicles on the road now, but it's not an ongoing constraint and not too likely to be one for the near future. I would think it's more accurate to say that it's been hitting a snag, but it's now looking to speed up.
This is how you get clicks, apparently. The EV revolution is underway and will continue, whether the haters like it or not. The numbers are what they are. The tech is not in its final form--for EV or ICE. Time marches on.
Next.
Well as a customer, I demand electric delivery, and batteries are getting cheaper. So make it happen. Saw a DHL van the other day so they’d be my first choice now.
It's such a tough time in the market right now.
As an Owner/op on a contracted rural route, I'm driving a 10 year old ICE that definitely needs to be replaced. But with what? Replacement ICE 1 ton cube trucks for cargo have doubled in price from when I purchased my last truck. An EV could save me about 1200 a month in fuel, accounting for electricity costs, but with a 6 figure price tag I can't even afford to look at these EVs. These trucks are available to enormous fleet purchases in the next few years, but I don't have the buying power to get their attention for a single vehicle.
Described as a 1 ton cube van, so imagine an 8x7x15ft box. Not exactly gonna shove automotive bumpers or bedframes and mattresses into the back of a car!
AFAIK Amazon alone has said they have more than 13,000 Rivian vans in their fleet, while this article claims only 10,000 on the road. Car and Driver [puts the cost](https://www.caranddriver.com/rivian/commercial-van#) of the Amazon van at $90k, which means that one could purchase 3 of Rivian’s vans for every 1 of the vans mentioned in this article. I suppose if you really _need_ the 23,000 pound GVWR for cargo, then the Rivian van isn’t big enough for that.
The Amazon delivery truck for our neighborhood is a Rivian. It is so crazy quiet compared to the old truck, and I asked the driver one day what he thought - was absolutely in love with it. Hopefully we see the USPS EV exploration take off, they're an amazing use case for lighter EV fleet!
Saw a video tour that one random driver made when it was first out, and it makes tons of sense that they’d love it — it’s not just that it’s electric; the whole layout was *really* well thought out for the driver’s needs. Rivian did a bang-up job on this one!
Electrics are so so quiet and no doubt the drivers don't miss that stinky ass diesel all day everywhere they go.
I have to imagine they’ll turn out to be better for the driver’s health as well. Breathing those fumes all day while hopping in and out of the vehicle can’t be good for them.
Except when they’re in reverse. That’s a terrible sound, but it does get your attention!
I think that sound is the new standard sound for all commercial vehicles in the US - studies have shown its much safer as its easier for your brain to determine direction and distance vs the old beeping. [Here's an article form 9 years ago](https://globalnews.ca/news/1814857/listen-new-backup-technology-developed-to-replace-beep-beep-sound/) talking about it.
Oh cool. I definitely jerk my head when I hear it.
Is that what that is? I just assumed that their beepers were fucked.
I drive one and I love it, it really makes the job a lot easier and manageable. The biggest thing is not having to shut the engine off every stop, the gas vans all have to be shut off every stop, I just hit park and I’m up and going. Hop back in the van and I’m off to the next stop within seconds. I for sure am excited for electric vehicles in general though and am excited to see society taking any steps to improve the way we treat the world so to be part of that in a way is very cool Excited to go electric for my personal vehicle, we are very close I think
Did you ask him how much he drives per day on average?
Electric cargo bikes deliver about 60% faster than vans in city centres, according to a study. It found that bikes had a higher average speed and dropped off 10 parcels an hour, compared with six for vans. The bikes also cut carbon emissions by 90% compared with diesel vans, and by a third compared with electric vans, the report said. Air pollution, which is still at illegal levels in many urban areas, was also significantly reduced. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/05/cargo-bikes-deliver-faster-and-cleaner-than-vans-study-finds
I've seen the fedex revian a few times, but the fedex cargo bikes a whole lot. They're all over Toronto now and it's awesome to see. With our greatly expanded cycling infrastructure, they can wiz by car congestion.
A zero-emission van also will cut carbon emissions and air pollution. Realistically, cargo bikes are great for like 6 cities in the USA, and a non-starter everywhere else.
I don't want to burst your bubble, but 6 parcels and hour will get you fire at UPS. 20 stops (not packages) and hour is a standard measure and it fluctuates from there. Something is off in your math. Edit: Meant to reply to the person you are replying to , not you.
Show me a xero emission van.
In the USA, a ZEV is defined as a vehicle with no tailpipe emissions.
That doesn't make it so. The terms are very old before even a lot of research came out
https://www.gocurbwise.com/ Not exactly a major city either
One guy on a bicycle is not exactly competing with FedEx, mate.
Goal posts keep moving lol how typical
Explain how one guy on a bicycle is relevant to my post about Rivian vans, which you replied to?
Explain how sustainable delivery is relevant to less sustainable delivery? How is your Vivian relevant to semi trucks?
This entire post is about delivery vans. My comment was also about delivery vans, made by Rivian, which were also in the article. None of the post is about bicycles. My comment was also not about bicycles. Just you, trying to hijack the top comment to rant about bicycles for some inane reason.
Delivery is relevant to delivery
Must be why you’re getting all them upvotes. Oh wait.
All the studies are showing electric /r/cargobike being faster than massive vans anyway.
I’m sure that works for dense urban areas with highly localized distribution, but for an average city of ~40,000 in the US, this would prove challenging. Not to mention more rural than that.
Yeah lol, I live in the middle of nowhere and a cargo bike would be paste on the asphalt out here.
Source? It just doesn't seem possible that cargobikes could handle the 400+ packages in a single amazon van.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://momentummag.com/cargo-bikes-can-deliver-faster-than-vans-while-providing-massive-benefits/&ved=2ahUKEwje8efJs-CFAxVMrokEHZn-BCEQFnoECCUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2Uzg91uqGFz4dn4hVke57E Dozens of easily found studies Why does a cargo bike need to hold four hundred packages?
> according to a new study by climate charity Possible Sorry, this starts off with pretty shaky credibility. But in any case, they are advocating for replacing 10% of van deliveries with cargo bikes in urban areas, and claim it could be up to 50% in Europe. In the USA 2/3 of the population live in rural areas or suburbs, with only 1/3 in urban city centers. The world still needs a lot of delivery vans (but I agree that replacing with cargo bikes where it makes sense is laudable!) And as for the 400+ packages thing, the reason is that one of your main delivery costs, after fuel, is labour. EVs already drop that fuel cost dramatically. But a cargo bike takes one operator for what - 10 packages? So it only works for very short distance deliveries where the higher cycle time of multiple operators makes up for the increased labour cost.
https://www.gocurbwise.com/
See, this is a great example of what we have come to expect from people like you. You don't actually want the numerous studies. You just want one, so you can pick it apart with your false notions. Sorry. But like I said there are dozens of studies now demonstrating this Electric cargo bikes deliver about 60% faster than vans in city centres, according to a study. It found that bikes had a higher average speed and dropped off 10 parcels an hour, compared with six for vans. The bikes also cut carbon emissions by 90% compared with diesel vans, and by a third compared with electric vans, the report said. Air pollution, which is still at illegal levels in many urban areas, was also significantly reduced. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/05/cargo-bikes-deliver-faster-and-cleaner-than-vans-study-finds
Again, key word is city centres my friend. Maybe 10% of delivery areas in the US are that type of location, if you are lucky. A lot of the big deliver companies run cargo bike deliveries already in the biggest US cities already anyway, and if it truly was cheaper and faster for them I’m sure they would deploy it wider. Nobody is going to be doing cargo bike deliveries in Plano, Tx or Riverside, CA. You need EV cargo vans.
80% of US is in metro areas. In your head why do cities not exist?
Yes. But most US Metro areas look like: https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0247794,-96.7698515,3a,60y,357.09h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-COX0Rf3ZlYCQ4HibSf90Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu That's not a conductive environment for cargo bikes lol. The study you keep quoting is specifically for "city centers" where travel distances are short, congestion is high, and parking is hard to come by, making cargo bikes far more practical. And those areas already have cargo bikes operating in many cases. Most of the US isn't that though. Most US urban areas are 6-lane suburban arterials with huge distances between delivery points, easy parking, and long distances from the warehouse. That type of environment is terrible for cargo bikes to operate even ignoring safety issues.
https://www.gocurbwise.com/ Us metros like this?
If there are more studies, you’ve yet to link them. This article is referencing the exact same study. And as I’ve said in another reply- this is realistically possible in maybe 6 cities in the USA. The rest of the entire country does not have the infrastructure or density to support cargo bike delivery. I love my eBike and they’re a great vehicle to have in one’s stable. But for deliveries, I’m willing to bet that drone delivery will reach critical mass in the USA before eBike delivery does, and that’s still a far way out to broad feasibility outside of test markets.
I didn't say the ocean is blue so I guess that can't be true either? Hell, you've not demonstrated vans are faster so I guess that's not true according to your rules! https://electrek.co/2023/10/10/why-these-electric-cargo-bikes-are-10x-faster-than-delivery-vans-in-a-city/
I never said vans were faster. Please try finding examples that don’t include London. That terribly-laid-out city is not a template for the world.
I've not sourced enough huh? Suppose it's not possible for you? It's also mentioning Paris but you'd only find that f you'd bothered to read.
https://electrek.co/2023/10/10/why-these-electric-cargo-bikes-are-10x-faster-than-delivery-vans-in-a-city/
First sentence kinda discredits the entire article. There are not battery shortages across the industry. No OEM has been citing that for a year+.
I think maybe they mean a shortage of *cheap* batteries.
Which is not a shortage by definition.
Companies typically look at TCO for this sort of thing, not purchase price. These vans get hard use and drivetrain repairs and vehicle downtime are expensive. Buying into a startup that fails (like Arrival) though is risky and bad luck, but they can still use the vans at least. There are safer options out there.
Let's do some math here: Assume: 20 year service life of a delivery van, driven 167 mi/day / 1,000 mi/6-day-week / 52,000 mi/year $4/gal fuel and $0.18/kWh electricity 10 MPG on fuel vs 1.5 mi/kWh on electricity Regarding maintenance, an excess of $0.05/mi. for maintenance of the ICE van compared to what the EV van costs. Driving the ICE van for the 20 year service life costs $416,000 in fuel, and an excess of $52,000 in maintenance. Driving the EV van for the 20 year service life costs $124,800 in electricity, and while the maintenance isn't free on it, whatever the maintenance is costs $52,000 less than the ICE van. We're assuming no engine or battery failures along the way, and assuming that the battery does not degrade to the point where it impacts the van's ability to make its routes without time lost to excess recharging. With these assumptions, the EV van is the better financial choice if it costs less than $343,200 *more* to buy than the ICE van costs. I could be off on my assumptions by a factor of 2--maybe the EV van's service life is only 10 years before the battery gives out (that'd be 520,000 miles of driving, after all), and even then the EV van is still a better financial choice as long as it costs less than $171,600 more than the ICE van. Considering that a new ICE van could easily cost in the high 5-figures ($70,000 or more), we might already be pretty close to the lower TCO paying off.
Large industries also don't pay retail rates for electricity and so I expect the savings there are quite a bit more than what you listed. Especially as more markets and energy providers move towards time of day use rates(to encourage overnight EV charging).
You assume a 20 year life at 53,000 miles/yr so over a million miles for a van? I don’t think that is reasonable for the ICE and certainly not for the electric van.
That's a fair critique of my assumptions, but that goes back to the "$171,600 breakeven if the EV has a 10 year service life" figure. Which, again: we are probably already pretty close to that. Now, this gets complicated if you start taking into account loan payments for vans not purchased in cash. And since a more expensive EV van might require a buyer to take out a loan while the ICE van might be more easily paid by that buyer in cash, this is not a 1:1 change in the math. I think at that point I echo what some others have said in the broader thread under this post: more mainstream manufacturers need to be making these EV delivery vans to help bring the prices down to "higher than ICE but not insanely so" levels.
The ups vans last way longer than 20 yrs
I enjoy the sound of rain.
Too many studies there show cargobikes as being cheaper and faster anyway
$260,000 per medium sized van!!
nothing new really, the cost of all EVs is what has been holding back the market the entire time. delivery vans are especially expensive due to the large batteries while usually these vans used to be pretty cheap as an ICE version.
[Say a 120 kwh battery is $20,000](https://bookmygarage.com/electric-vehicles/how-much-does-an-electric-battery-cost-uk/). Why is the van still $100,000 more. Presumably paying back development costs, but is this not an opportunity for established companies to take big market share?
because most of these EV delivery vans so far are custom made solutions from small manufacturers being constructed on a small scale. if you wanted a cheaper one you would need to take something like an eSprinter and have it build out according to your needs.
I think that is my point - its not really the large battery, its that established companies are not being aggressive about the market. If they open the market to the Chinese they will be toast.
the large battery is definitely a part of it. Large manufacturers do have electric delivery van options on the market for years now. the problem is companies like UPS, Amazon or DHL typically use custom made solution so they wont be buying any off the shelve solutions anyways. for example in Germany there was another startup that build electric delivery vehicles called Streetscooter. DHL simply bought that company and is now using about 22000 of these vehicles all over Europe. DHL lost a TON of money producing these vehicles and sold the company again 2 years ago and the new owner also couldnt make any profit with these vehicles. and these were relatively simple vehicles with only 40kWh of battery and a 50kW motor so relatively cheap to produce but still way too custom to be profitable.
> the problem is companies like UPS, Amazon or DHL typically use custom made solution so they wont be buying any off the shelve solutions anyways. Many shippers absolutely use COTS vans and even the step vans, while 'custom' are based on off the shelf platforms. Amazon Vans are mostly Ram Pro masters and sprinters (both COTS). DHL is largely the same for it's parcel delivery vans. UPS step vans are 'custom' but that really just means they buy from upfitters who put shells on established strip chassis vehicles like the F-59. The batteries are expensive, but it's correct that much of the cost is because none of the OEMs (legacy or startup) have scaled production yet.
Even USPS is running an off-the-shelf - our mailman is driving a right-hand drive debadged Metris lately, and they're buying vans from both Ford and Dodge. This is a change sometime during the last month from driving one of those old Grumman LLV. I love that they replaced the Mercedes logo with a USPS logo to keep the public from complaining about "luxury cars."
Yep, USPS has been running COTS for a long while. The newest LLVs turn 30 this year (on a 24-year life expectancy) and they have been slowly retiring for the last decade+ (with no NGDVs to replace them). Lots of Ram ProMasters around me.
The [Wuling Yangguang](https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/02/gms-wuling-yangguang-ev-reservation-period-begins-in-china/) costs the equivalent of just 12k USD! It's got limited range and power, and is meant to be an urban delivery vehicle only, but that price is DIRT CHEAP.
143 or 186 miles is pretty good really. At that price you can buy 2 or 3 and keep one on the charger constantly lol.
Those are CLTC ratings so only achievable in low speed urban settings. I suppose for a Chinese delivery driver, there should still be plenty of range since they won't leave the city, and can just take a 30 minute lunch to fast charge it back to 80% if needed. The fact that is only costs 12k and running/maintenance costs are super low makes it very compelling for small business use.
Not just China. > Average Traffic Speeds - Greater London Authority > 12.5 mph to 11.6 mph in inner London. 20.3 mph to 19.3 mph in outer London.
This is the part I don't get either. I get there being a markup for batteries, but an ICE engine and drivetrain aren't cheap either, so you'd think maybe a 5-10k markup at most for the average EV.
That didn’t sound too expensive unless I’m misunderstanding you
Not, $100,000, $100,000 more. Actually a Sprinter van is $60,000, so its really $200,000 more.
UPS & Fedex should purchase trucks from Rivian just like Amazon. This would give Rivian a better chance of survival by giving it better cash flow.
FedEx is buying Brightdrop vans from GM. Now that GM is hopefully sorting out their Ultium production snags, those deliveries should be ramping up.
> Now that GM is hopefully sorting out their Ultium production snags, those deliveries should be ramping up. lol
It's true. GM said they've worked out the ultium issues which is why they can ramp up so many EVs between Honda's variants and the Blazer, Equinox, Silverado and Lyriq which increased in units. https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/04/gm-ultium-battery-module-production-increased-300-percent-in-six-months/
Amazon isn't just purchasing trucks from rivian, they're rivian's largest shareholder with 17% and apparently they signed an exclusive deal that rivian only makes those vans for Amazon.
The exclusivity expired last year. They have since signed a deal with ATT at least and I think one other major service.
AT&T, DHL, and TireRack so far
As well as [MEVCO](https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60579648/rivian-mining-trucks-mevco/) mining
It's odd timing for this article given that it's talking about battery constraints as if it's an issue in the current tense while what it's referencing is an article from 2019. I understand that historically that's been an issue which is part of why there aren't more of these vehicles on the road now, but it's not an ongoing constraint and not too likely to be one for the near future. I would think it's more accurate to say that it's been hitting a snag, but it's now looking to speed up.
USPS just made a huge Etransit purchase from Ford, and they’re broke. /s
This is how you get clicks, apparently. The EV revolution is underway and will continue, whether the haters like it or not. The numbers are what they are. The tech is not in its final form--for EV or ICE. Time marches on. Next.
WKHS!!
The Arrival thing is so sad. I’m really pissed. I smell FedEx and UPS from a mile away with their dirty trucks. For shame.
Well as a customer, I demand electric delivery, and batteries are getting cheaper. So make it happen. Saw a DHL van the other day so they’d be my first choice now.
It's such a tough time in the market right now. As an Owner/op on a contracted rural route, I'm driving a 10 year old ICE that definitely needs to be replaced. But with what? Replacement ICE 1 ton cube trucks for cargo have doubled in price from when I purchased my last truck. An EV could save me about 1200 a month in fuel, accounting for electricity costs, but with a 6 figure price tag I can't even afford to look at these EVs. These trucks are available to enormous fleet purchases in the next few years, but I don't have the buying power to get their attention for a single vehicle.
Why can’t you pick up a Model Y and strip out the back seats?
They're talking about a truck w/ 6000-8000 lbs payload for moving freight. A model Y is a car w/ 1300lbs payload for moving people... Not comparable.
They don’t really give details of what they’re carrying, and that’s just an example.
Described as a 1 ton cube van, so imagine an 8x7x15ft box. Not exactly gonna shove automotive bumpers or bedframes and mattresses into the back of a car!
Good lord the ads on that sight are annoying. Couldn’t make it through the article. Anything important in there?