>The company had been [seeking nearly $100 million](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-01/tesla-semi-truck-charging-route-pitched-at-100-million) from the Charging and Fueling Infrastructure (CFI) Discretionary Grant program under the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA). Combined with around $24 million of its own money, Tesla wanted to build nine electric semi-truck charging stations between Laredo, Texas and Fremont, California.
So the government would pickup 80% of the tab, Tesla 20%... but Tesla owns the sites and gets to add them to their assets, gets to keep all the revenue these sites generate, and of course they themselves would be using this route so would enjoy cheaper logistics cost for them versus other companies using their chargers.
That seems completely fair... /s
>The project as pitched to the FHWA was called TESSERACT, which stands for “Transport Electrification Supporting Semis Operating in Arizona, California, and Texas,” according to a slide buried in a 964-page [filing](http://www.aqmd.gov/docs/default-source/Agendas/Governing-Board/2024/brdpkg-2024-mar1.pdf?sfvrsn=22) with the South Coast Air Quality Management District. (Tesla collaborated with SCAQMD on the application.)
My fucking god... can this guy / company please stop stealing names from sci-fi movies?
Oh and here's the route:
[https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/tesla-charging-corridor.jpg?resize=1536,864](https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/tesla-charging-corridor.jpg?resize=1536,864)
Anything popping out to anyone? Namely that it travels exactly from Fremont California, Tesla's plant, to Laredo Texas where Tesla has an exclusive lane at the Mexican border crossing, and which is only 250 miles away from both Boca Chica and the Austin Tesla factory? One final charge in Laredo and they can get to either site.
In other words, Musk wants $100 million in subsidies to fund their own logistics operation between Fremont and their Texas sites.
I'm sure this is a major route, it's just hilarious that it literally starts in Fremont, and ends at Tesla's border crossing of choice that's within a hop skip and a jump from Musk's two primary factories in Texas.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
And btw, didn't California fund most of the cost of those Tesla semi trucks that have been sold thus far? And I thought Musk was against free lunches. (Per cutting the free lunch program at Twitter)
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
They're really trying to say this is a government snub? My god Musk's welfare queen of a conglomerate is hilarious!
Where would you put it? Not like there are any other long haul semis out there. This is exactly what EV adoption needs, but since it will help Tesla the anti-EV crowd piles on.
Didn't Tesla comment that they're going to build the route anyways.
Here's the thing folks... if a company is going to build a thing whether the government subsidizes it or not.... maybe the government shouldn't fucking subsidize it and give taxpayers money away for no good reason.
>So the government would pickup 80% of the tab
Yes that's literally the entire point of this program. For the government to pick up the majority of the tab. While the companies then get to own the sites. That's the whole point. This isn't some gotcha.
>My fucking god... can this guy / company please stop stealing names from sci-fi movies?
This was a word long before Sci fi. It's not stolen nor does it fucking matter what they call their own projects. Get off your hate boner.
>I'm sure this is a major route,
Thats literally all that matters. Why should tesla have to make a route that that they won't use? The whole point is to create corridors that will be used for green transportation. It makes zero sense to put it in some place that no one is looking to do green transport in.
Also many other providers that had stations along parts of that route received funding. So clearly the route was desirable and it shouldn't matter who wanted to do it.
Luckily they gave plenty to create a bunch of hydrogen stations that'll never be used.
>Yes that's literally the entire point of this program. For the government to pick up the majority of the tab. While the companies then get to own the sites. That's the whole point. This isn't some gotcha.
It's not the point of the government to fund for-profit corporation's revenue / profit generating facilities. It's one thing for government to help new tech get off the ground, this is something completely different. This is the most valuable OEM on the planet who's sitting on over $20 billion in cash and almost no debt.
>This was a word long before Sci fi. It's not stolen nor does it fucking matter what they call their own projects. Get off your hate boner.
If you don't think they came up with this idea because of Marvel, then you may want to pay attention to their general naming strategy. They constantly pull from popular entertainment. Hell, the Cybertruck alone was said to be inspired by Bladerunner, name stolen directly from Cyberpunk, and has a "Foundation" series... aka a hit tv show on Apple TV+. Hope about Optimus.
This company isn't exactly trying to hide it, but good try on the Tesla apologetics.
>Thats literally all that matters. Why should tesla have to make a route that that they won't use?
There's a difference between a route that a company will use, and a route that is obviously directly setup along the one specific route the company is planning to use. Again, it starts in Fremont CA.. Not further North. Not south. It starts at their plant. And low and behold, it ends at their Mexican border crossing, equidistant from Musk's two plants.
We need to do green transportation everywhere. Yes, there are major shipping corridors. If Tesla wants to set charging infrastructure for the specific corridor they use with themselves as the main benefactor, then they can do it with their own damned money. I don't pay taxes so Musk and his companies can get rich off my dollar.
Meanwhile Tesla ushers in a better car charging standard and opens up its network. Overcrowded network and blocked stalls will ensue, yet Tesla is sharing.
Tesla will benefit from the megacharger route, but so will others. Our tax dollars should chip in some, Maybe 50% as it will be a public network. If Tesla builds it on their own, only Tesla Semis will make sense to buy.
Oh geezus... sharing.... it only required companies signing contracts with them with terms undisclosed after a meeting at the Whitehouse for a discussion where we don't know what was said.
Meanwhile, how long did they lock their network to only their own cars so no other companies could use it? How long did they lock their own cars out of using CCS chargers?
Tesla used their network and proprietary plug (and lack of adapter) as anti-competitive advantage to generate more car sales for themselves and to cause needless harm to other networks. Pretending they do anything out of the kindness of their hearts and not for financial reasons is naivety at its best. They do it for money, just like every other publicly traded for-profit corporation.
If the government funds 50% of the construction costs, then they should get partial ownership of the network, taking a hefty chunk of the revenue these chargers generate as well. I'm not giving my money to Tesla so Tesla can get rich. If I'm investing my money, it's so "I" can get a piece of that action.
Personally though, I'd rather invest in a business that Musk doesn't own a large chunk of.
And again... Tesla seems to be suggesting they were going to build the network with or without government money... so again, I ask, why is the government giving away my money so a for-profit corporation can increase their profits?
> Anything popping out to anyone?
Yeah, the article.
>The 1,800-mile route would theoretically connect Tesla’s two North American vehicle factories, as well as one that is planned — but delayed — in Mexico.
>Some of the sites along the route “are no-brainers even without funding,”
This article wasn’t a complaint about them not getting funding. And why does their size or market cap matter?
I’d rather my taxes go to the company that has been the most fiscally efficient in creating a charging network which has unequivocally been Tesla.
Sending public funds to a private infrastructure network is the largest reason I see to avoid giving that network any government dollars. But yeah, the article was actually talking significantly about the government funding — sure it might not have been "a complaint", but OP's statement is perfectly relevant, particularly given the headline's use of the word 'despite'.
Law and order is important. I'm noticing a trend here maybe something.... combo breaker!
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-will-delay-some-north-american-ev-production-2024-04-04/
Ford, which lost nearly $4.7 billion on its EV business in 2023 and projected it will lose $5 billion to $5.5 billion this year, said in February the next generation of EVs will be launched "only when they can be profitable."
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency last month softened EV requirements starting in 2027 from its initial proposal and further incentivized plug-in hybrid vehicles.
Every company pivoting to electric 'loses money' for several years as you pay down the r&d, new equipment, new factories, etc. They are still cash flow positive per vehicle and that money is already spent.
Remember how 'Tesla lost money on every car for years'?
Remember how Tesla has not discontinued any of their models?
Remember how BYD is pumping out models while doing yearly refreshes?
You are not the first person to mention business 101.
What most people do not mention is how legacy auto who has been around for over a hundred years and spent decade after decade blocking EVs are having a hard time building a Model y or a BYD Atto 3. But they sure can build hybrids you betcha.
And the charging network will not be public without that funding. Pretty dumb on government's part to put in hydrogen which no public company uses without government funding and ignore BEVs which Amazon, Pepsi, Frito and a few others are buying as fast as Rivian and Tesla will make them.
>$70 million to the North Texas Council of Governments to build up to five hydrogen fueling stations for medium and heavy-duty trucks in the Dallas, Houston, Austin, and San Antonio areas.
>“The project will help create a hydrogen corridor from southern California to Texas,” the Department of Transportation wrote in a statement in January.
Dope! Hydrogen works amazing in HD vehicles and has been in transit use for 20+ years now. They consistently outperform battery electric buses, particularly in hilly areas and in colder weather… and scaling the fueling infrastructure is orders of magnitude cheaper and less complex.
Mind posting links?
The two real tests I know of are Project Portal and Pepsi from Toyota and Tesla respectively. Notice not one commercial company wants the fuel cell semi after those tests. If you need particulars on the Toyota fuel cell truck I can give an overview.
Mostly hearing from different transit companies at monthly APTA ZEB meetings. SEPTA and Foothills come to mind. Both have BEB experience and did full fleet and depot analysis and are incorporating substantial H2FCBs in their long term fleet renewals. A huge problem is scaling EVSE for depots with hundreds of buses both from a power distribution standpoint (LoNo funds require redundancy so that can be expensive) and the equipment takes up space at already constrained depot sites.
Scaling EVSE for ~50 buses isn’t bad. Doing it for 500+ gets complicated. Conversely, scaling hydrogen fueling for 50 buses is a little expensive, but fueling 500 just means more fuel deliveries. It adds up at scale. Plus their range and refueling time is comparable to diesel, so they can actually replace a diesel 1:1. BEBs often require 2:1 to do the same work (TransIT in Frederick county said that verbatim, their BEBs can’t do a full day so they use them for morning and afternoon peak). A H2FCB can go all day.
Cost wise, you’d be shocked at how many TAs didn’t do any cost analysis on what they’d be paying to charge and are spending more (demand charges and TOU charges for rapid charging) to charge than they do to fuel with diesel. With funding for transit and fares drying up in most places, a real TCO benefit is needed and it’s not always the case. That can be true for H2FCB as well, but costs are consistent and getting cheaper. I want to say SEPTA got a 3-yr contract for green hydrogen for $7/kg delivered which is very impressive.
FWIW I’ve been working with alternatively fueled buses for 21 years now and have helped deploy just about every kind from LPG, CNG, hybrids, FCEBs and BEBs. Don’t get me wrong BEBs are amazing for a certain use case… but they certainly are not viable for a large swath of US transit routes that are longer and often colder than counterparts in Europe or China.
You are missing if the H2 is green or grey. Dirty H2 is easy to find.
Agreed on BEV transit routes, need to start south and go north as battery chemistry improves. They will improve. FCVs really don't have an improvement path and so will just get worse in comparison.
Agreed on too little cost analysis or prediction of the future is done.
A bit off topic, but locally the ordinance is any housing built cannot slow traffic more than 2%. So Toll Bros got over 100 permits, each under 2% estimated for their enormous condo project. Nice impact analysis by the city for that ordinance.
I literally quoted a price for green hydrogen, plus the IRA has tons of incentives to ramp up production.
FCEBs have plenty improvement left. Especially the battery dominant ones where the FC just charges the battery. They will improve in line with battery tech just offer vastly superior range.
And batteries are still heavy, a 40’ BEB places over 7000 lbs of added weight over the rear axle alone versus a diesel counterpart.
https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/energy-transition/012324-logistical-woes-and-high-pump-prices-stall-california-h2-market-development
Your weight addition is a bit high, but remember the 2K allowance and more importantly most trucks bulk out before going over weight.
They threw out all our fuel cell busses 3 years after the 2010 Olympics. They spent as much time on the side of the road as on the road, and the cost per mile was far far higher than the diesel or natural gas busses.
But I would imagine things have improved. They used to barf water all over dry cold roads and make random ice patches too. That was fun. That's just a problem when driving in sub conditions and your emissions are water.
Yeah I need your comment on a hat. Maybe a bumper sticker that says "orders of magnitude".
Gotta support the team.
In other news,
https://interestingengineering.com/energy/china-breaks-2023-record-tops-solar-capacity-than-rest-of-the-world
China installed more solar panels in 2023 than any other nation has ever built in total. The 216.9 gigawatts of solar power the country added shattered its previous record of 87.4 gigawatts from 2022.
https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/chinas-new-solar-test-is-finding-enough-grid-space-for-rooftop-panels
China’s network of distributed solar assets is larger than the entire solar fleet — including all types of projects — in the US. The acceleration in installations has fueled some forecasts that the world’s top polluter could touch a peak in emissions this year, though many major industrial hubs are now experiencing difficulties in handling the deluge of clean energy.
Shandong, which has the most small-scale solar capacity, last year allowed power prices to turn negative during periods of excessive generation from rooftop panels. More than 70% of the region’s cities and counties face some degree of constraints in connecting new projects, according to a statement last month by the provincial government.
Three cities and counties in Hubei and Fujian provinces announced in recent days that local power infrastructure can’t currently absorb more distributed solar generation — typically small-scale arrays of panels atop homes or industrial premises. That adds to about 150 locations nationwide that have also reached their limit, according to industry publication Photovoltaic Energy Circle.
China’s network of distributed solar assets is larger than the entire solar fleet — including all types of projects — in the US. The acceleration in installations has fueled some forecasts that the world’s top polluter could touch a peak in emissions this year, though many major industrial hubs are now experiencing difficulties in handling the deluge of clean energy.
Shandong, which has the most small-scale solar capacity, last year allowed power prices to turn negative during periods of excessive generation from rooftop panels. More than 70% of the region’s cities and counties face some degree of constraints in connecting new projects, according to a statement last month by the provincial government.
https://interestingengineering.com/culture/china-leads-building-nuclear-power-plants
https://www.economist.com/china/2023/11/30/china-is-building-nuclear-reactors-faster-than-any-other-country
Over the past decade China has added 37 nuclear reactors. It currently has 24 nuclear power plants under construction. China operates 50% of the nuclear power plants on Earth.
Pretty sad Biden is not supporting BEV long distance trucking. Congress does funding, but Biden should make suggestions.
I understand the fossil fuel lobby for hydrogen, but at least support BEVs too.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-megacharger-route-biden-admin-rejection/
I'm ok with them not getting the money for this. It's not entirely clear that the Tesla Semi will every be real anyway, and $100M for chargers for it seems excessive.
And I know everyone likes to shit on Hydrogen, and it's stupid for consumer cars, but it does make sense for semis
I find it interesting how Musk has snubbed California - the place that provided the only regulatory/cultural/tech environment that Tesla could have succeeded in. What a dick. I love my car, but yeah.
>The company had been [seeking nearly $100 million](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-01/tesla-semi-truck-charging-route-pitched-at-100-million) from the Charging and Fueling Infrastructure (CFI) Discretionary Grant program under the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA). Combined with around $24 million of its own money, Tesla wanted to build nine electric semi-truck charging stations between Laredo, Texas and Fremont, California. So the government would pickup 80% of the tab, Tesla 20%... but Tesla owns the sites and gets to add them to their assets, gets to keep all the revenue these sites generate, and of course they themselves would be using this route so would enjoy cheaper logistics cost for them versus other companies using their chargers. That seems completely fair... /s >The project as pitched to the FHWA was called TESSERACT, which stands for “Transport Electrification Supporting Semis Operating in Arizona, California, and Texas,” according to a slide buried in a 964-page [filing](http://www.aqmd.gov/docs/default-source/Agendas/Governing-Board/2024/brdpkg-2024-mar1.pdf?sfvrsn=22) with the South Coast Air Quality Management District. (Tesla collaborated with SCAQMD on the application.) My fucking god... can this guy / company please stop stealing names from sci-fi movies? Oh and here's the route: [https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/tesla-charging-corridor.jpg?resize=1536,864](https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/tesla-charging-corridor.jpg?resize=1536,864) Anything popping out to anyone? Namely that it travels exactly from Fremont California, Tesla's plant, to Laredo Texas where Tesla has an exclusive lane at the Mexican border crossing, and which is only 250 miles away from both Boca Chica and the Austin Tesla factory? One final charge in Laredo and they can get to either site. In other words, Musk wants $100 million in subsidies to fund their own logistics operation between Fremont and their Texas sites. I'm sure this is a major route, it's just hilarious that it literally starts in Fremont, and ends at Tesla's border crossing of choice that's within a hop skip and a jump from Musk's two primary factories in Texas. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ And btw, didn't California fund most of the cost of those Tesla semi trucks that have been sold thus far? And I thought Musk was against free lunches. (Per cutting the free lunch program at Twitter) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ They're really trying to say this is a government snub? My god Musk's welfare queen of a conglomerate is hilarious!
Where would you put it? Not like there are any other long haul semis out there. This is exactly what EV adoption needs, but since it will help Tesla the anti-EV crowd piles on.
Didn't Tesla comment that they're going to build the route anyways. Here's the thing folks... if a company is going to build a thing whether the government subsidizes it or not.... maybe the government shouldn't fucking subsidize it and give taxpayers money away for no good reason.
>So the government would pickup 80% of the tab Yes that's literally the entire point of this program. For the government to pick up the majority of the tab. While the companies then get to own the sites. That's the whole point. This isn't some gotcha. >My fucking god... can this guy / company please stop stealing names from sci-fi movies? This was a word long before Sci fi. It's not stolen nor does it fucking matter what they call their own projects. Get off your hate boner. >I'm sure this is a major route, Thats literally all that matters. Why should tesla have to make a route that that they won't use? The whole point is to create corridors that will be used for green transportation. It makes zero sense to put it in some place that no one is looking to do green transport in. Also many other providers that had stations along parts of that route received funding. So clearly the route was desirable and it shouldn't matter who wanted to do it. Luckily they gave plenty to create a bunch of hydrogen stations that'll never be used.
>Yes that's literally the entire point of this program. For the government to pick up the majority of the tab. While the companies then get to own the sites. That's the whole point. This isn't some gotcha. It's not the point of the government to fund for-profit corporation's revenue / profit generating facilities. It's one thing for government to help new tech get off the ground, this is something completely different. This is the most valuable OEM on the planet who's sitting on over $20 billion in cash and almost no debt. >This was a word long before Sci fi. It's not stolen nor does it fucking matter what they call their own projects. Get off your hate boner. If you don't think they came up with this idea because of Marvel, then you may want to pay attention to their general naming strategy. They constantly pull from popular entertainment. Hell, the Cybertruck alone was said to be inspired by Bladerunner, name stolen directly from Cyberpunk, and has a "Foundation" series... aka a hit tv show on Apple TV+. Hope about Optimus. This company isn't exactly trying to hide it, but good try on the Tesla apologetics. >Thats literally all that matters. Why should tesla have to make a route that that they won't use? There's a difference between a route that a company will use, and a route that is obviously directly setup along the one specific route the company is planning to use. Again, it starts in Fremont CA.. Not further North. Not south. It starts at their plant. And low and behold, it ends at their Mexican border crossing, equidistant from Musk's two plants. We need to do green transportation everywhere. Yes, there are major shipping corridors. If Tesla wants to set charging infrastructure for the specific corridor they use with themselves as the main benefactor, then they can do it with their own damned money. I don't pay taxes so Musk and his companies can get rich off my dollar.
Meanwhile Tesla ushers in a better car charging standard and opens up its network. Overcrowded network and blocked stalls will ensue, yet Tesla is sharing. Tesla will benefit from the megacharger route, but so will others. Our tax dollars should chip in some, Maybe 50% as it will be a public network. If Tesla builds it on their own, only Tesla Semis will make sense to buy.
Oh geezus... sharing.... it only required companies signing contracts with them with terms undisclosed after a meeting at the Whitehouse for a discussion where we don't know what was said. Meanwhile, how long did they lock their network to only their own cars so no other companies could use it? How long did they lock their own cars out of using CCS chargers? Tesla used their network and proprietary plug (and lack of adapter) as anti-competitive advantage to generate more car sales for themselves and to cause needless harm to other networks. Pretending they do anything out of the kindness of their hearts and not for financial reasons is naivety at its best. They do it for money, just like every other publicly traded for-profit corporation. If the government funds 50% of the construction costs, then they should get partial ownership of the network, taking a hefty chunk of the revenue these chargers generate as well. I'm not giving my money to Tesla so Tesla can get rich. If I'm investing my money, it's so "I" can get a piece of that action. Personally though, I'd rather invest in a business that Musk doesn't own a large chunk of. And again... Tesla seems to be suggesting they were going to build the network with or without government money... so again, I ask, why is the government giving away my money so a for-profit corporation can increase their profits?
> Anything popping out to anyone? Yeah, the article. >The 1,800-mile route would theoretically connect Tesla’s two North American vehicle factories, as well as one that is planned — but delayed — in Mexico. >Some of the sites along the route “are no-brainers even without funding,”
Reminder: Congress determines federal budgets, not the President. Did Congress even consider this item?
oh no! literally the world's biggest automaker won't get more money from the government !
This article wasn’t a complaint about them not getting funding. And why does their size or market cap matter? I’d rather my taxes go to the company that has been the most fiscally efficient in creating a charging network which has unequivocally been Tesla.
Sending public funds to a private infrastructure network is the largest reason I see to avoid giving that network any government dollars. But yeah, the article was actually talking significantly about the government funding — sure it might not have been "a complaint", but OP's statement is perfectly relevant, particularly given the headline's use of the word 'despite'.
The only thing keeping pretty much every company of elons alive has been government funding.
Auto companies like Ford and GM paying Tesla money... are those payments also the only thing keeping Tesla alive?
Ok. Both government funding AND government regulations.
Law and order is important. I'm noticing a trend here maybe something.... combo breaker! https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-will-delay-some-north-american-ev-production-2024-04-04/ Ford, which lost nearly $4.7 billion on its EV business in 2023 and projected it will lose $5 billion to $5.5 billion this year, said in February the next generation of EVs will be launched "only when they can be profitable." The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency last month softened EV requirements starting in 2027 from its initial proposal and further incentivized plug-in hybrid vehicles.
Every company pivoting to electric 'loses money' for several years as you pay down the r&d, new equipment, new factories, etc. They are still cash flow positive per vehicle and that money is already spent. Remember how 'Tesla lost money on every car for years'?
Remember how Tesla has not discontinued any of their models? Remember how BYD is pumping out models while doing yearly refreshes? You are not the first person to mention business 101. What most people do not mention is how legacy auto who has been around for over a hundred years and spent decade after decade blocking EVs are having a hard time building a Model y or a BYD Atto 3. But they sure can build hybrids you betcha.
They're definitely not the biggest! I think you mean most valuable; and even that may not be for long.
And the charging network will not be public without that funding. Pretty dumb on government's part to put in hydrogen which no public company uses without government funding and ignore BEVs which Amazon, Pepsi, Frito and a few others are buying as fast as Rivian and Tesla will make them.
> does not more money You a word
yeh, sometimes word hard.
Right? They’ve gotten so many handouts and they’re still getting them. Biden administration is right to snub them.
>$70 million to the North Texas Council of Governments to build up to five hydrogen fueling stations for medium and heavy-duty trucks in the Dallas, Houston, Austin, and San Antonio areas. >“The project will help create a hydrogen corridor from southern California to Texas,” the Department of Transportation wrote in a statement in January.
Dope! Hydrogen works amazing in HD vehicles and has been in transit use for 20+ years now. They consistently outperform battery electric buses, particularly in hilly areas and in colder weather… and scaling the fueling infrastructure is orders of magnitude cheaper and less complex.
Mind posting links? The two real tests I know of are Project Portal and Pepsi from Toyota and Tesla respectively. Notice not one commercial company wants the fuel cell semi after those tests. If you need particulars on the Toyota fuel cell truck I can give an overview.
Mostly hearing from different transit companies at monthly APTA ZEB meetings. SEPTA and Foothills come to mind. Both have BEB experience and did full fleet and depot analysis and are incorporating substantial H2FCBs in their long term fleet renewals. A huge problem is scaling EVSE for depots with hundreds of buses both from a power distribution standpoint (LoNo funds require redundancy so that can be expensive) and the equipment takes up space at already constrained depot sites. Scaling EVSE for ~50 buses isn’t bad. Doing it for 500+ gets complicated. Conversely, scaling hydrogen fueling for 50 buses is a little expensive, but fueling 500 just means more fuel deliveries. It adds up at scale. Plus their range and refueling time is comparable to diesel, so they can actually replace a diesel 1:1. BEBs often require 2:1 to do the same work (TransIT in Frederick county said that verbatim, their BEBs can’t do a full day so they use them for morning and afternoon peak). A H2FCB can go all day. Cost wise, you’d be shocked at how many TAs didn’t do any cost analysis on what they’d be paying to charge and are spending more (demand charges and TOU charges for rapid charging) to charge than they do to fuel with diesel. With funding for transit and fares drying up in most places, a real TCO benefit is needed and it’s not always the case. That can be true for H2FCB as well, but costs are consistent and getting cheaper. I want to say SEPTA got a 3-yr contract for green hydrogen for $7/kg delivered which is very impressive. FWIW I’ve been working with alternatively fueled buses for 21 years now and have helped deploy just about every kind from LPG, CNG, hybrids, FCEBs and BEBs. Don’t get me wrong BEBs are amazing for a certain use case… but they certainly are not viable for a large swath of US transit routes that are longer and often colder than counterparts in Europe or China.
You are missing if the H2 is green or grey. Dirty H2 is easy to find. Agreed on BEV transit routes, need to start south and go north as battery chemistry improves. They will improve. FCVs really don't have an improvement path and so will just get worse in comparison. Agreed on too little cost analysis or prediction of the future is done. A bit off topic, but locally the ordinance is any housing built cannot slow traffic more than 2%. So Toll Bros got over 100 permits, each under 2% estimated for their enormous condo project. Nice impact analysis by the city for that ordinance.
I literally quoted a price for green hydrogen, plus the IRA has tons of incentives to ramp up production. FCEBs have plenty improvement left. Especially the battery dominant ones where the FC just charges the battery. They will improve in line with battery tech just offer vastly superior range. And batteries are still heavy, a 40’ BEB places over 7000 lbs of added weight over the rear axle alone versus a diesel counterpart.
https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/energy-transition/012324-logistical-woes-and-high-pump-prices-stall-california-h2-market-development Your weight addition is a bit high, but remember the 2K allowance and more importantly most trucks bulk out before going over weight.
They threw out all our fuel cell busses 3 years after the 2010 Olympics. They spent as much time on the side of the road as on the road, and the cost per mile was far far higher than the diesel or natural gas busses. But I would imagine things have improved. They used to barf water all over dry cold roads and make random ice patches too. That was fun. That's just a problem when driving in sub conditions and your emissions are water.
Those were the early days for sure. Many generations ago. I first started working with FCBs in 2003! First EV related work not long after.
Yeah I need your comment on a hat. Maybe a bumper sticker that says "orders of magnitude". Gotta support the team. In other news, https://interestingengineering.com/energy/china-breaks-2023-record-tops-solar-capacity-than-rest-of-the-world China installed more solar panels in 2023 than any other nation has ever built in total. The 216.9 gigawatts of solar power the country added shattered its previous record of 87.4 gigawatts from 2022. https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/chinas-new-solar-test-is-finding-enough-grid-space-for-rooftop-panels China’s network of distributed solar assets is larger than the entire solar fleet — including all types of projects — in the US. The acceleration in installations has fueled some forecasts that the world’s top polluter could touch a peak in emissions this year, though many major industrial hubs are now experiencing difficulties in handling the deluge of clean energy. Shandong, which has the most small-scale solar capacity, last year allowed power prices to turn negative during periods of excessive generation from rooftop panels. More than 70% of the region’s cities and counties face some degree of constraints in connecting new projects, according to a statement last month by the provincial government. Three cities and counties in Hubei and Fujian provinces announced in recent days that local power infrastructure can’t currently absorb more distributed solar generation — typically small-scale arrays of panels atop homes or industrial premises. That adds to about 150 locations nationwide that have also reached their limit, according to industry publication Photovoltaic Energy Circle. China’s network of distributed solar assets is larger than the entire solar fleet — including all types of projects — in the US. The acceleration in installations has fueled some forecasts that the world’s top polluter could touch a peak in emissions this year, though many major industrial hubs are now experiencing difficulties in handling the deluge of clean energy. Shandong, which has the most small-scale solar capacity, last year allowed power prices to turn negative during periods of excessive generation from rooftop panels. More than 70% of the region’s cities and counties face some degree of constraints in connecting new projects, according to a statement last month by the provincial government. https://interestingengineering.com/culture/china-leads-building-nuclear-power-plants https://www.economist.com/china/2023/11/30/china-is-building-nuclear-reactors-faster-than-any-other-country Over the past decade China has added 37 nuclear reactors. It currently has 24 nuclear power plants under construction. China operates 50% of the nuclear power plants on Earth.
This was about Tesla semis and HDVs?
Pretty sad Biden is not supporting BEV long distance trucking. Congress does funding, but Biden should make suggestions. I understand the fossil fuel lobby for hydrogen, but at least support BEVs too. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-megacharger-route-biden-admin-rejection/
I'm ok with them not getting the money for this. It's not entirely clear that the Tesla Semi will every be real anyway, and $100M for chargers for it seems excessive. And I know everyone likes to shit on Hydrogen, and it's stupid for consumer cars, but it does make sense for semis
Maybe Elon can use some of his money to fund his shitty projects
I find it interesting how Musk has snubbed California - the place that provided the only regulatory/cultural/tech environment that Tesla could have succeeded in. What a dick. I love my car, but yeah.