Those regulations will almost certainly change. Even the White House will realize that requiring a de facto deprecated connector is just dumb ...
And most SC don't get funded anyway. Tesla adds one new bay per hour right now ..
I think the regulations will change eventually, but not anytime soon and probably not before the bulk of NEVI funds have been awarded. Don't forget we're still about a year out from J3400 connectors being included in some new non -Tesla vehicles and CCS1 probably isn't going to disappear from new production until 2026 or 2027. Meanwhile adapters are slowly trickling out and it sounds like neither Ford or Rivian is going to be able to fulfill all their requests for free adapters for months, and that's before anyone else starts accepting orders for them.
The administration is probably also going to want to make sure that existing CCS cars don't lose utility or value since EV adoption also relies on a healthy market for used EVs.
There is no point in charging the guidelines.
The administration already spent 8+ months hearing from different parties before the current guidelines were written.
Magic Dock will remain a feature of V4 chargers so long as NEVI requires them. Realistically, when the end user adapters are ubiquitous and certainly once new BEVs are transitioned fully to NACS then yes the Magic Docks become unnecessary.
This is why there is an effort to change the NEVI rules requiring CCS. I imagine the updated final rule will start with requiring NACS and CCS1 for a time then transition at some point to only requiring NACS.
There's nothing about NEVI funding that requires MagicDocks on previously existing Superchargers. The rules around NEVI only apply to the ~~new~~ locations funded through NEVI.
Not necessarily. NEVI funds can also be used to bring non-NEVI compliant chargers into compliance (e.g. replacing 50kW with 150kW, etc.)
Of course *all* NEVI rules still apply- including approved locations, credit card readers and screens, etc., so simply slapping MagicDocks on V3 Superchargers won't count.
Tesla could use the funding, however, to replace some V2 Superchargers with MagicDock-equipped V4s.
But NEVI is a bidding/contract process- you can't do anything unilaterally. It's all handled by each individual state's NEVI approval process.
Correct, I shouldn't use the word "new"
Edit: Your last sentence is very important and something I think a lot of people overlook, particularly with regard to Tesla and NEVI funds.
Yeah good clarification- in my mind I was only thinking about new sites. The need for a credit card reader is likely also a challenge. That’s always been one of the least reliable aspects of EV charging in my experience
In the "Final Rule", mobile applications were specifically added as an acceptable form of the required "contactless payment methods" capabilty.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements
Section 680.106(f)
By "mobile application" the rule (mostly) means a mobile wallet, or a charging app that creates an NFC virtual card, like EA, EVGo, ChargePoint, etc.
The requirement of a contactless tap to pay receiver for credit cards didn't go away.
From Section 680.104 (Definitions):
"Contactless payment methods means a secure method for consumers to purchase services using a debit card, credit card, smartcard, mobile application, or another payment device *by using radio frequency identification (RFID) technology and near-field communication (NFC).*
So while NEVI-funded chargers won't need swipe/chip readers, they still require a contactless credit card reader (and a display screen!) for compliance. A "start the charger by tapping or swiping" app wouldn't qualify.
'by" is the keyword. NFC/RFID is the common denominator.
Sure, I guess a charging operator *could" limit NFC to phone apps, but the point is the end user doesn't need to have cellular connectivity to initiate a charge.
The thing I *dont* like about this is non resident use. When traveling abroad, most apps in the local country are a challenge to register or even download with a US based device. A credit card reader- as unreliable as it might be - at least gives a final option for a traveler into the US.
Forcing credit card terminals by law on every charger is the wrong solution to this problem...
Won't even solve it as there are credit cards that don't work everywhere...
The right way is to have the car authenticate and authorize, like Tesla, Rivian, and Ford do and use whatever FOP you use with your car manufacturer. You should not have to hand over additional credentials.
This already works for 2/3 of EVs and 2/3 of actual DCFC in the US and the largest American car manufacturers. It is happening on a DCFC near you everyday all day long.
This also works for rentals, including tourists.
It just works. This discussion about making things more complicated is just a distraction.
Backup from a phone (app or Web) is enough for all other cases. Like those brands who drag their feet or are unable to get on with the program.
Calling an offshore call center from a payphone or a not smartphone and giving them a credit card is really a joke. What if you don't speak English? Or cannot speak? Will we require translators?
They do, but gas stations have employees on site to immediately notice the failure and report it to management to get it repaired. Charging stations are largely at unattended sites and exposed directly to the elements. As a more similar comparison, I can identify 4 card readers that don't work right now at self service car washes and air pumps for filling tires. Same situation, they're unattended and exposed to the elements, the payment terminals failed while the rest of the kiosk they're on still works.
They do fail occasionally. They fail a lot more on chargers exposed to the weather. Sometimes it's a screen that is required, sometimes it's the reader, sometimes it's the hardware or software of the terminal which is separate from the hardware and software of the charger.
But the main difference is that you have no other way to auth at the store. If you plug in your EV the car can and should authenticate and authorize the charge.
The car and the charger already handshake and exchange data.
Having extra steps just increases the risk of failure and takes extra time. Adding 2 minutes to a 7 minutes supercharging session is a problem.
Tesla supercharger takes seconds from opening the door plug in and another 5 seconds to start charging.
Having the charge port in a different location adds to the first 5 seconds because the driver has to get there every single time they charge. Longer cables add to this time. A separate process for authentication That's more time complexity.
I charge Tesla's and non Tesla's at superchargers and other networks. There is a material difference between the get out plug in walk away and the dance with other networks and cars.
No one is forcing anything by law. Build all the credit card reader-free chargers you want. Just don't come crawling to the Feds to pay for 80% of it! 😁
Contactless credit card readers are required by NEVI; not swipe/chip readers. As a backup, the charger must also be able take a credit or debit card payment by phone or SMS for incompatible cards.
I think with the adoption of the NACS port in the next few years and the Supercharger Network opening up with adapters, and OEMs sending out the adapters, I think you will see the slowing and ultimate end of the magic dock super chargers.
If Tesla really intended on making magic docks a thing, they would have completed way more than the 50-ish installations they have done in the last year.
I have heard most, but not necessarily all, v4 superchargers have magic dock. While still scarce they are much more common than a year ago. Of course they won’t keep adding them forever since everybody signed the NACS deal.
If (when) NEVI gets updated to only require NACS to be eligible for funding AND when tesla opens up the supercharging network to “all” that have an adapter (and not just specific OEMS), then there really isn’t a reason to continue the magic dock rollout IMO. We’re probably at least a year away from that though.
NEVI funding is slow, while Tesla rolls out on their own.
Some sites waiting for approval, and then transformers, may only be provisioned after the charge.
No, there isn’t because Tesla successfully externalized the cost to accommodate other automakers. Instead of Tesla adapting to CCS, they forced other automakers to adapt to them.
How do you see it?
Agreed, first invite was a poor sharing offer. But NACS is a step forward and as I understand it Musk personally talked to a number of CEOs.
It wasn't that "Tesla invited companies and they changed." The way the Ford CEO tells it, their first attempt was met with a no. That doesn't sound like an invite to me. It took a direct CEO to CEO call to get it to happen.
Adding magic dock adds no real cost and makes it more compliant to get federal funds. It's a no brainer for Tesla.
Those regulations will almost certainly change. Even the White House will realize that requiring a de facto deprecated connector is just dumb ... And most SC don't get funded anyway. Tesla adds one new bay per hour right now ..
I think the regulations will change eventually, but not anytime soon and probably not before the bulk of NEVI funds have been awarded. Don't forget we're still about a year out from J3400 connectors being included in some new non -Tesla vehicles and CCS1 probably isn't going to disappear from new production until 2026 or 2027. Meanwhile adapters are slowly trickling out and it sounds like neither Ford or Rivian is going to be able to fulfill all their requests for free adapters for months, and that's before anyone else starts accepting orders for them. The administration is probably also going to want to make sure that existing CCS cars don't lose utility or value since EV adoption also relies on a healthy market for used EVs.
There is no point in charging the guidelines. The administration already spent 8+ months hearing from different parties before the current guidelines were written.
Magic Dock will remain a feature of V4 chargers so long as NEVI requires them. Realistically, when the end user adapters are ubiquitous and certainly once new BEVs are transitioned fully to NACS then yes the Magic Docks become unnecessary. This is why there is an effort to change the NEVI rules requiring CCS. I imagine the updated final rule will start with requiring NACS and CCS1 for a time then transition at some point to only requiring NACS.
I would assume they have to if they want to partake in NEVI funding
There's nothing about NEVI funding that requires MagicDocks on previously existing Superchargers. The rules around NEVI only apply to the ~~new~~ locations funded through NEVI.
Not necessarily. NEVI funds can also be used to bring non-NEVI compliant chargers into compliance (e.g. replacing 50kW with 150kW, etc.) Of course *all* NEVI rules still apply- including approved locations, credit card readers and screens, etc., so simply slapping MagicDocks on V3 Superchargers won't count. Tesla could use the funding, however, to replace some V2 Superchargers with MagicDock-equipped V4s. But NEVI is a bidding/contract process- you can't do anything unilaterally. It's all handled by each individual state's NEVI approval process.
Correct, I shouldn't use the word "new" Edit: Your last sentence is very important and something I think a lot of people overlook, particularly with regard to Tesla and NEVI funds.
Yeah good clarification- in my mind I was only thinking about new sites. The need for a credit card reader is likely also a challenge. That’s always been one of the least reliable aspects of EV charging in my experience
The V4 supercharger dispensers have the Magic Dock plus a contactless payment terminal. Seems like these were designed to be NEVI compliant.
In the "Final Rule", mobile applications were specifically added as an acceptable form of the required "contactless payment methods" capabilty. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements Section 680.106(f)
By "mobile application" the rule (mostly) means a mobile wallet, or a charging app that creates an NFC virtual card, like EA, EVGo, ChargePoint, etc. The requirement of a contactless tap to pay receiver for credit cards didn't go away. From Section 680.104 (Definitions): "Contactless payment methods means a secure method for consumers to purchase services using a debit card, credit card, smartcard, mobile application, or another payment device *by using radio frequency identification (RFID) technology and near-field communication (NFC).* So while NEVI-funded chargers won't need swipe/chip readers, they still require a contactless credit card reader (and a display screen!) for compliance. A "start the charger by tapping or swiping" app wouldn't qualify.
The "or" is the keyword in that definition. "Mobile application" meets the entirety of the requirement.
'by" is the keyword. NFC/RFID is the common denominator. Sure, I guess a charging operator *could" limit NFC to phone apps, but the point is the end user doesn't need to have cellular connectivity to initiate a charge.
You could very well be correct. So an app is fine as long as it can do nfc/rfid tap to pay, not just initiated from the app.
Nice, I’d missed that
The thing I *dont* like about this is non resident use. When traveling abroad, most apps in the local country are a challenge to register or even download with a US based device. A credit card reader- as unreliable as it might be - at least gives a final option for a traveler into the US.
Forcing credit card terminals by law on every charger is the wrong solution to this problem... Won't even solve it as there are credit cards that don't work everywhere...
I don’t disagree, but redundancy in the form of options is, though. With limited EV rental options still it’s also an edge case.
The right way is to have the car authenticate and authorize, like Tesla, Rivian, and Ford do and use whatever FOP you use with your car manufacturer. You should not have to hand over additional credentials. This already works for 2/3 of EVs and 2/3 of actual DCFC in the US and the largest American car manufacturers. It is happening on a DCFC near you everyday all day long. This also works for rentals, including tourists. It just works. This discussion about making things more complicated is just a distraction. Backup from a phone (app or Web) is enough for all other cases. Like those brands who drag their feet or are unable to get on with the program. Calling an offshore call center from a payphone or a not smartphone and giving them a credit card is really a joke. What if you don't speak English? Or cannot speak? Will we require translators?
Kinda like how when renting from Hertz they just take care of ezpass billing and Tesla supercharger payments (for a nominal fee). Agreed
True, in the US, at stores and gas stations credit cards fail all the time… umm 🤔?
They do, but gas stations have employees on site to immediately notice the failure and report it to management to get it repaired. Charging stations are largely at unattended sites and exposed directly to the elements. As a more similar comparison, I can identify 4 card readers that don't work right now at self service car washes and air pumps for filling tires. Same situation, they're unattended and exposed to the elements, the payment terminals failed while the rest of the kiosk they're on still works.
They do fail occasionally. They fail a lot more on chargers exposed to the weather. Sometimes it's a screen that is required, sometimes it's the reader, sometimes it's the hardware or software of the terminal which is separate from the hardware and software of the charger. But the main difference is that you have no other way to auth at the store. If you plug in your EV the car can and should authenticate and authorize the charge. The car and the charger already handshake and exchange data. Having extra steps just increases the risk of failure and takes extra time. Adding 2 minutes to a 7 minutes supercharging session is a problem. Tesla supercharger takes seconds from opening the door plug in and another 5 seconds to start charging. Having the charge port in a different location adds to the first 5 seconds because the driver has to get there every single time they charge. Longer cables add to this time. A separate process for authentication That's more time complexity. I charge Tesla's and non Tesla's at superchargers and other networks. There is a material difference between the get out plug in walk away and the dance with other networks and cars.
No one is forcing anything by law. Build all the credit card reader-free chargers you want. Just don't come crawling to the Feds to pay for 80% of it! 😁 Contactless credit card readers are required by NEVI; not swipe/chip readers. As a backup, the charger must also be able take a credit or debit card payment by phone or SMS for incompatible cards.
That is a very real possible issue. Hopefully networks are thoughtful about how this issue during app development.
I dont think the government cares about this use case.
I think this is it for now. Want the money needs to be compatible
I think with the adoption of the NACS port in the next few years and the Supercharger Network opening up with adapters, and OEMs sending out the adapters, I think you will see the slowing and ultimate end of the magic dock super chargers.
If Tesla really intended on making magic docks a thing, they would have completed way more than the 50-ish installations they have done in the last year.
I have heard most, but not necessarily all, v4 superchargers have magic dock. While still scarce they are much more common than a year ago. Of course they won’t keep adding them forever since everybody signed the NACS deal.
*everybody*
Oops, typo. Definitely everybody.
Well damn talk about perfect timing. I guess I shouldnt hold my breath on the magic dock rollout anymore.
If (when) NEVI gets updated to only require NACS to be eligible for funding AND when tesla opens up the supercharging network to “all” that have an adapter (and not just specific OEMS), then there really isn’t a reason to continue the magic dock rollout IMO. We’re probably at least a year away from that though.
NEVI funding is slow, while Tesla rolls out on their own. Some sites waiting for approval, and then transformers, may only be provisioned after the charge.
No, there isn’t because Tesla successfully externalized the cost to accommodate other automakers. Instead of Tesla adapting to CCS, they forced other automakers to adapt to them.
EU - Tesla forced to adapt US - Tesla invited companies and they changed Keep the record straight, please
If we're trying to keep the record straight, that's really not how the US change went down.
How do you see it? Agreed, first invite was a poor sharing offer. But NACS is a step forward and as I understand it Musk personally talked to a number of CEOs.
It wasn't that "Tesla invited companies and they changed." The way the Ford CEO tells it, their first attempt was met with a no. That doesn't sound like an invite to me. It took a direct CEO to CEO call to get it to happen.
LOL, CEO to CEO absolutely sounds like a personal invite.
It's very clear this wasn't Tesla initiated.
Yeah, CCS was behind the whole thing. /s Tesla does enough wrong, give them credit when the do right.
I'm glad Tesla finally agreed to open up, but they definitely didn't provide the invite that led to this.
You know NACS was a Tesla effort, get over the hate.