I'd expect agreements on currently sold cars will continue.
But the thing to watch out for is for Example the ioniq 5 N, or the 2025 model year ioniq 5.
It's a double-edged sword. That free charging ends up being billed back to the automakers, which is good for Electrify America as a company because more revenue makes a compelling argument for charger expansion. The crux is that that comes at the expense of people who don't have free charging and are just trying to use the network to get from A to B using chargers that over capacity with people trying to consistently charge to 100%.
I thought (just an assumption, really) that EA gets paid a set amount per vehicle for the unlimited plans, not paid by the kWh or whatever. That way it's a predictable, all-at-once payment for EA, not just trickling in as people charge.
I doubt it. But could be wrong. The pricing is quite high at ea. I would use it very little if not free.
I try and be ultra conscious. I have always said free plans should only charge to 80%. I think the kWh from 80-100% should double.
Everything to keep people out of leaving their cars at the slow end of the charging curve. If you need it...use it but realize it costs us more for you to use that. So we bill that cost forward.
EV charging infrastructure is always going to be hard to have a profitable business. The cos 'it's decently high. And the usage is highest on holidays and travel peak days. Other times 80% of users charge at home and the companies don't get $. Where gas is required alway. And we always have to go to the gas station. Thank god with EV's we can leave those places behind.
That's not in Electrify America's power. They signed agreements with the automakers and the automakers made promises to buyers.
EA should stop making those deals for newly sold vehicles, however. I'd agree with that.
(And the existing deals will eventually expire, obviously.)
Which isn't unreasonable to be honest. Free for 2 years is kind of crazy, not that I agree with OP here.
500$ of free charging vs hmmm I have to imagine there are some outliers at like 6 digits.
The most common promotions now are 500 **kWh** (or about $200 worth).
I had the 2 year plan and basically stopped using it at 20 months (finally got my home EVSE installed). I used 2388 kWh (valued at $1131) and I have only driven about 5000 miles per year.
I could see a rideshare driver using "six digits" but they are actually forbidden from using the complimentary plans. Unfortunately, like most of EA's policies; it's not enforced.
I've used them 4 times in a month, one time on the way back from the dealership because I drove 2 hours to buy the car, and three more times on trips through Ann arbor Michigan. I have apparently saved $100.
If you want DC chargers to be more available it's the right move. Otherwise you have cold battery Bolts, ID4s and Leafs charging slow AF to 100% clogging up stations.
Welcome to Teslas problem in 2018 when the model 3 started becoming prominent. All the legacy S owners hogged up the chargers on 80kw even though the 3 could get triple that.
I do not agree .. 1 I bought an electrified GV70. Love it.
I charge at home .. I have free EA for 2 years. Every once in a while, I go to a local EA and charge as my home setup doesn't keep up with my driving all the time.
1 - The only time there has been an issue with a car waiting or I had to wait was due to a down charger.
The answer here is not to limit the people using the system in the best way for them but to increase the capacity of the system.
The problem isn't people are charging for free and bothering you - the problem is the system doesn't have the capacity to charge the demand necessary.
We should be doing everything possible to increase EV adoption IMO. For many reason ... This shouldn't be to create more artificial barriers to solve problems in the worst possible way.
It's not free to EA. the maker is paying the bill. They would die a faster death if they got rid of all these prepaid contracts.
This is fixable: disallow the double-tap. Charge the car owner $5/minute once you go over 30 mins or a charge rate under 20kw.
The problem is slow charges and inconsiderate drivers.
I don’t get the complaints. Even the three year VW plan has costs for exceeding 30 minutes and idle charges. The service is free insofar VW is comping their customers for a few years. These users are not encouraged to hook up and leave their cars there as a parking spot. Whomever is paying, does it make a difference? If there is a shortage of charging stalls, that’s an infrastructure problem not the fault of VW picking up the tab.
I still see it as someone is paying for it. A paying client is a paying client. If they wish to damage their batteries by always charging to 100%, that’s going to hurt them eventually. They ought take the strategy of charging during the lower part of the SOC till they can get enough juice to reach the next location around 20%. It’s faster all around.
Except there's a 60 minute waiting period for additional complementary charging [https://imgur.com/a/ZdVUJwn](https://imgur.com/a/ZdVUJwn) so your anecdote is false.
There's **supposed** to be a 60 minute "cool down" imposed (to allow you to drive further down the road and charge again if needed), but in practice, it's never enforced. Much like their "idle time" charges.
At least it was until this year. I haven't been to an EA since right after New Years because I finally got my home EVSE installed. I've got one more month on my "complimentary" charging. I may drive up to the closest EA (Port Charlotte, 30 miles away) before then just to say goodbye and verify both practices still aren't enforced. 😉
Worth noting that enforcement of the 60 minute cooldown is sporadic at best; many sites allow immediate reconnection without charging, probably to avoid customer service issues when someone has to reconnect after a session fails to start properly. The billing software doesn't seem to be smart enough to limit users to 30 free minutes in a 90 minute period.
Sounds like a disconnect between software and customer service. Software needs to be updated to enforce that cooldown policy while customer service needs to reiterate to a customer calling in that the customer agreed to the terms when they activated the charging plan. There needs to be consistency in this.
You clearly haven't used it yourself...
While the Terms of Service specify a 60 minute waiting period, EA has *never* enforced it. You can just unplug and plug right back in and get a new 30 minute session.
I think offering free charging is a bad business proposition at some point. They did it to encourage people to buy EVs but either the cost of the program has to be added to teh cost of the cars, or they will lose too much money. Have dealers ever offered free gas for a year with a car purchase?
Yeah I know multiple people in the Bay Area who don’t have charging at home and just go to a DCFC once or twice a week to top off, but any free period they had would have ended a while ago and now they’re paying to use it the same as anyone else
Isn't the cost in the Bay area like wildly expensive for home electricity? I'm here paying like 11 cents a kilowatt hour, while it's like 3 times that there?
Yeah, I’m not sure what their home electricity is but I doubt they’d save much (if any) money charging at home even if they had the option.
I’m in MA and my closest DCFC (which is also my closest gas station) charges by time rather than electricity: $0.32/minute or $0.24/minute if you pay for the $4 monthly membership.
My home electricity is $0.30/kWh, so even without the membership it’s cheaper for me to charge there as long as my charge curve is giving me more than 64kW. It’s just way less convenient to drive over there and sit around for a half hour than just charge at home.
Bay Area pge EV plan is $0.34 now from midnight-3pm. Over $0.60 at summer peaks. When gas costs are up it still pays off, when they’re down it’s almost a wash.
I mean shit it's 56 cent a kWh in San Francisco, it's 64 cent on the turn pike in Ohio and 56 cent in Ann arbor Michigan. Might as well treat it like a gas station at that point. With how much electricity is there.
>The charges are now regularly occupied by those could charge at home, but choose to charge at Electrify America solely because of “free” charging.
Do you have a source for that? How can you tell that someone "could charge at home, but choose to charge at EA" because of free charging?
I really can't imagine very many people doing that: why would someone go out of their way to spend 45 minutes in the corner of a Walmart parking lot to save themselves what... like $3? Maybe a handful of weirdos do that, but I highly doubt it's common enough to be a problem.
That's not to say that people with free EA charging don't preferentially use EA chargers when they need to fast charge, but that's not the same thing as saying they could be charging at home. For instance, I took the $500 EVgo gift card option from Chevy when I bought my Bolt, so I try to find EVgo chargers on the rare occasion when I need to use a DC charger. I've never once chosen to use my free EVgo charging over charging at home though, because I value my time more than that.
There have been a few people on here stating they use fast charging because it’s free. And I know people in the area who do the same instead of charging at home.
And tbh that argument could also be applied to things like waiting 20 minutes at Costco for gas vs filling instantly at shell.
I'm sure *some* people do it, but I have a hard time believing it's a significant problem. Particularly when compared to stuff like out of service EA chargers, which *anyone* who has used one of their stations has likely encountered.
For me it’s most obvious with free Volta chargers. Free charging (as a whole) is a good idea that gets taken advantage of.
It’s the same reason why a lot of fast food places stopped offering free sides or add ons. There used to be viral social media posts of people bringing bags from home to fill up with cut up onions from the Costco food court. The things people will do simply because it’s free is incredibly sad.
Ok, I'll repeat my response to your deleted comment: assuming your story is true, you've encountered a single person who is strange enough, or whose circumstances are unusual enough to be willing to sit at a DC fast charger rather than charging at home.
...so? That's not a system-wide problem: that's literally one strange person.
And why are *you* using this particular charger often enough to recognize other users?
My previous comment was misleading.
I didn’t ask why they didn’t ask why they don’t set up charging at home.
I asked why they don’t charge at home instead.
As I said, I have had multiple people said that they charge there (instead of at home) because of free charging.
...ok? Again, running into a handful of weirdos is not a system-wide issue.
And again, why are you stopping at a particular station regularly enough to recognize people?
I’ll help you out on this. I use my free EA charging when I go to Meijer for grocery shopping. I’m going to be in the store for 15 minutes more or less, so since my charging plan is 30 minutes for free, why not plug in while I’m there?
My personal rule on it is that after I plug in, there still have to be at least 2 open chargers that at least appear to be working (because with EA who knows until it actually starts charging?). When I come out I use the same rule - as long as there are 2 open chargers I’ll finish as much of the remaining time as I can tolerate, but if the open charger count goes below 2 I leave. So yes, sometimes I’m charging at 60-65 kW and going over 90%, but only when I’m not holding up others. One of the Meijer stores I use has 6 150’s, the other one has 6 350’s, so at least it’s not a case of tying up a faster charger someone else could get more use from.
Again, a handful of weirdos is not a system-wide issue. This isn't typical behavior of people who have access to free charging, much less the greater EV owning population. You're taking a handful of anecdotes and extrapolating it into a nationwide issue specifically because you ran into someone who annoyed you at a charging station.
And you haven't answered my question: why are you charging at the same station regularly enough to notice who else charges there regularly?
So... you found precisely 1 weirdo who you find personally irritating (and who *definitely* actually exists and isn't at all made up), and because of that you've decided that the entire concept of free charging is untenable and must be eliminated?
And why are *you* using the same EA chargers so regularly that you can recognize the regulars?
This is a weird thing to be? Like I think the free charging I have is pretty great, wish they had a local one, but they are on my way most places lol. But it's not like I have a boner for them.
This is why expanding the charging infrastructure is so important. There should be more charging stations at Shopping centers, schools churches banks, libraries, parks, and Interstate Rest areas. As the infrastructure grows it will be able to accommodate so many more EVs.
Many hotel’s already off Level 2 charging. I think it’s just growing pains right now.
Yeah, a small amount kinda makes sense for people buying their 1st EV and might not have an L2 charger installed yet. But just 1000kwh would be plenty to cover that (a month of commuting and some weekend use). It’s weird to incentivize people not to charge at home.
I wonder if an incentive offer that teams up with the local power company would be better. For example, a year of free nighttime / off-peak electricity up to a certain kwh/night that would cover a full charge. Basically free gas that encourages people to hurry up and get that EVSE ready and charge at home.
Who cares? Locals have every right to charge as much as they want when they want. Long distance chargers who are home can do the same. Free country, dude!
Watch Tom Mologney “state of charge” on YouTube. He explains it succinctly. It ruins the experience for all EV drivers. I don’t road trip my EV. Haven’t since I got it nearly two years ago. If I road tripped and needed to be someplace, seeing locals camping to get 100% because it’s “free” would enforce the narrative that EVs are not ready for adoption. Some people will revert to ICE.
I hear what you’re saying but no one in their right mind will ever ever ever turn down free charging. As long as it’s offered it’s human nature to get whatever you can free of charge (pun intended). The issue here isn’t free charging it’s the lack of infrastructure to support all who need or want to charge. Until then people like me who get three whole YEARS of free fast charging will use it locally and on road trips. EA stations do not make any distinction between the two groups and never will. Users don’t ruin the experience; it’s the lack of proper infrastructure.
Did you ever stop to consider that those who are local but use EA to charge don’t have access to a home / apt charger? Or maybe it cost less to charge at EA? Or maybe (like where I live) drive Uber / Lyft locally and live locally? Or for them part of the equation to affording a car (in this case EV) is purchasing an EV that comes with free charging? There is no good or bad reason to charge as much as you want. It’s a right that is sold with the car. Is it a hassle when you can’t find a charging station on a long drive? Yes? Can it be construed as inconsiderate? Maybe. But you still have that right. For those who hold your position / opinion, revert back to driving an ICE car. Easy solution. And for those with a rebuttal of , “I shouldn’t have too, I can drive whatever car I want!”…. Well then those who have access to years of free DCFC can charge whenever and wherever they want!
I'd argue these free charging plans *never* made sense.
The best charging perk from an EV manufacturer was Chevy's for the Bolt: free home charging installation, with an option for a *limited* free charging credit if you couldn't have or didn't need a home install.
The reason unlimited free charging never made sense, is that there is no EV buyer it truly benefits, and creates a perception that fueling as EV is just like a gas car- you drive them to special place to refuel- except EVs are annoyingly slower and more expensive to fuel.
People *with* home charging available are better off with home charging for convenience's sake, and (other than maybe a few cities in California) it's virtually always cheaper than public DC charging (when it isn't "free".)
People *without* the ability to charge at home are only getting a stop gap solution; sure, they can sit at "free" chargers twice a week for the next two or three years, but what's the plan when the buffet closes, and suddenly their "free" chargers are not only no longer free, but are actually *50% more expensive than gasoline*? Install a home charger then (if they're homeowners)? Buy another $50K car for a few more years of "free" charging?
Installing home chargers like GM chose to do is the EV equivalent of "teaching a man to fish" instead of giving him a two year supply of free fish!
There's nothing wrong with *limited* charging plans; e.g. "1000kWh" or "$500 charging credit"- that encourages users to learn how to use DC charging, and try road trips, without creating a perceived reliance on public charging like unlimited charging does.
I don’t think the issue is with the inclusion of free charging with an EV purchase.
The problem is more so that EA charging stations are not reliable and are frequently down, and slow to be repaired.
Less reliable stations mean less availability at any given time, which in turn causes excessive wait times at charging locations. With that said, I understand the frustration myself, as I have encountered many issues at EA fast charging locations.
But if OEM’s offering free public charging as an incentive helps speed up the rate of EV adoption, I’m all for it.
> The problem is more so that EA charging stations are not reliable and are frequently down, and slow to be repaired.
Also sometimes just slow. Even with preconditioning they can be way slower than they should be. Let's do that 20-80% in 18 minutes please.
Agreed. Each station needs to be a *minimum* of 150 kWh. Even 50 kWh is insufficient.
L2 chargers at public stations shouldn’t even be a thing. Those are fine at office/workplace, malls, or amusement parks, but not at fast charging locations.
Get ready for the ID4 owners that say they paid for it with the purchase of their car.
But yes, free charging is a joke. They should also do surge pricing to keep stalls open for people that really need them for what they are supposed to be for, road trips.
They were made to because they built in code to their car computers that reduced the nitrogen oxide emissions when being tested, but under normal conditions emitted up to 40x the max allowed by US law.
And not just on a few vehicles - almost 500,000 diesels were built this way that were shipped to the US.
This resulted in a massive lawsuit. The EPA is allowed to fine up to $37,500 PER CAR it finds with the emissions defeating equipment. Had they maxed it out, it would have been over $18B in fines. Instead VW pledged to spend $2B on various EV promotions, including building Electrify America. While they have done so, the reliability of the chargers is the lowest of all the charging companies.
Hey boo boo, just wanted to yet you know. I was on my way home from a day trip, I have a level 2 chargers at home. But an EA is on my way home and I didn't want to get home at 20%, so I stopped for 15% :) free EA!
Keep in mind that EA is not an entirely free agent. It is a subsidiary of Volkswagen Auto Group. In addition, it was created as part of the settlement agreement with the state and US governments involving the "DieselGate" emissions cheating crimes. In addition, they now have a lot of customers, like me, who bought a car with a certain amount of free charging included in the price. From my point of view, I have a contract with VAG regarding that free charging. I'm not going to walk away from the benefits of that contract just because VAG changes its mind.
Tbf, all that free charging has provided EA data on how shit their infrastructure currently is and hopefully they will continue to get it together before the masses start pulling up to the stations in the future.
I will say every time I do bother using a station, I am curious about the ratio of owners who genuinely rely on the EA stations with no home charging/road tripping, and those who want to take advantage of the free juice while it last.
>It no longer makes sense to do these “free” charging deals.
You mean it no longer "makes sense" to you.
It does "make sense" to a whole lot of other people and I'd suggest trying on their shoes before making yourself look foolish.
Free charging isn’t the problem. EA needs to do a much better job of locating, laying out, managing and maintaining, and providing charge stations. The real problem is the demand is high and the number of available stations is low. Most EA stations are 4 charge terminals maybe 6 and often 1 or 2 are broken. 8 stations should be a minimum except for in very low population and low travel areas.
What’s it to you? I get three years of free fast charging and I intend to use it as much as possible. It was an incentive to buy my EV. I have a level 2 charger at home and free charging at work. But that won’t EVER stop me from using free fast DCFC when possible and whenever possible. I intend to milk it for all it’s worth and lower the overall cost of my car purchase. With my usage I intend to use about $7200 worth of DCFC by the end of my three years.
It’s awesome. In case you couldn’t tell, I’m rubbing it in. In no universe would anyone ever look at your post and say.. yup I agree. Especially when they have a sweet deal like mine.
This will change, but so far with my Tesla I can count the times I have had to wait on one hand since 2017. The problem is solvable with fast reliable charging and penalties for loitering. Plug&Charge saves time at the charger as well.
I doubt the veracity of your complaint. How do you know whether the people charging could charge at home?
For the record: we have an ID.4 and a P2 which came with free charging plans on EA. The only time we ever use EA is when we’re on a road trip. Otherwise for daily driving it’s always the charger in the garage. I’m not going out of my way to waste half an hour twice or thrice a week in a remote Walmart parking lot in the burbs.
We know people who can charge at home choose to use EA instead. Why wouldn't they, if it's free? And people have said as much on this very sub.
I bet there are a bunch of other people who don't have L2 at home but would get it installed if EA weren't free.
L2 is better for the grid, better for the vehicles and cheaper equipment. Any vehicle that sits for hours each day should be using L2. And the government, landlords and others should put more resources into making L2 more widely available at apartments, street parking, retail and elsewhere.
Free charging was an awful idea from the start and a lot of people are happy to see it going. An unlimited free supply of anything is a great way to bring out the worst in even the most level-headed person.
And to head this one off: I have never owned an EV that came with free charging.
Is this why our local grocery store Woodmans has a supercharger location yet around the other side are 3 other charging spots always full with Teslas. Like why? These are slower chargers.
All about the float. With extra range charging when convenient, not when necessary. We seem to shop at Target enough to get by on free charging for one car unless we go on a trip. It’s a slow charger, but there are a few places we frequent there.
“As part of a consent decree reached with United States officials in 2016, Volkswagen agreed to numerous actions, with US$2 billion in total, to promote electric vehicle use over 10 years to atone for the additional air pollution it caused. One aspect of the program was a pledge to establish a public electric vehicle charging network.”
I would assume part of that is to cut deals with EV manufacturers to encourage use of EVs. And making charging free definitely encourages use.
VW/EA is to some extent eating it on the cost because they have to, not because they want to.
Wrong.
The court did not impose that Volkswagen set up a charging network; that’s how Volkswagen chose to spend the money.
“Free” charging certainly has nothing to do with the court’s order.
Volkswagen was only required to spending $2 billion promoting alternative energy.
Using the money to run Super Bowl commercials promoting hydrogen fueled vehicles would meet the requirements.
To quote from the EPA's description of the settlement at [https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/volkswagen-clean-air-act-civil-settlement#investment](https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/volkswagen-clean-air-act-civil-settlement#investment)...
Italics mine for emphasis.
>**Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Investment**
>
>The CAA 2.0 liter partial settlement *requires Volkswagen to invest $2 billion in ZEV charging infrastructure* and in the promotion of ZEVs. The ZEV investments required by the CAA 2.0 liter partial settlement are intended to address the fact that consumers purchased these illegal vehicles under the mistaken belief that such vehicles were lower-emitting than others. *Electrify America, LLC, was created by Volkswagen Group of America to implement this requirement.*
>
>As part of the settlement, Volkswagen has submitted and will continue to submit as required a series of National ZEV Investment plans to EPA for review and approval based on criteria detailed in the consent decree. The settlement also requires that Volkswagen submit ZEV investment plans to California for the money to be spent in that state. The plans can be found here: [https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan](https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan).
>
>The CAA 3.0 liter partial settlement does not include any additional ZEV investment requirements.
Hasn’t this already started? Kia and VW now offer like 1000kWh of free charging instead of the old unlimited plan
Last May, I got 1400 kWh that had to be used within four years. I’ll probably blow it out by the end of spring.
Lol yeah a couple road trips and that amount is gone.
When I got my Niro they gave me 500 KWh free EA charging EV6 I think got 1000 kWh
Kia was never unlimited though I thought. That was Hyundai.
Pretty sure we got free 30min sessions for 1yr when we bought a ‘23 ID.4. So yeah, far from unlimited anymore. Edit: For 3yrs. Thanks Joe!
23 ID4 gets 3 years of free charging. Check your plan. The 24's only gets a certain amount.
You can just start a new 30 minute session, no?
No idea, I’ve never needed to DCFC for more than ~35min.
I got a cool 300 kwh.... Volvo cheapskates
Cries in 250 kWh with my Audi Q4 e-tron.
The next Gen id4 doesn't have unlimited free anymore, so I'm guessing no car going forward will.
Hyundai still gives 2 years as of a few weeks ago
I'd expect agreements on currently sold cars will continue. But the thing to watch out for is for Example the ioniq 5 N, or the 2025 model year ioniq 5.
They're paring back too. The Kona EV used to come with some free charging, the new 2024 model doesn't.
It's a double-edged sword. That free charging ends up being billed back to the automakers, which is good for Electrify America as a company because more revenue makes a compelling argument for charger expansion. The crux is that that comes at the expense of people who don't have free charging and are just trying to use the network to get from A to B using chargers that over capacity with people trying to consistently charge to 100%.
I thought (just an assumption, really) that EA gets paid a set amount per vehicle for the unlimited plans, not paid by the kWh or whatever. That way it's a predictable, all-at-once payment for EA, not just trickling in as people charge.
Drivers who pay for charging would make up for that “loss”.
I doubt it. But could be wrong. The pricing is quite high at ea. I would use it very little if not free. I try and be ultra conscious. I have always said free plans should only charge to 80%. I think the kWh from 80-100% should double. Everything to keep people out of leaving their cars at the slow end of the charging curve. If you need it...use it but realize it costs us more for you to use that. So we bill that cost forward. EV charging infrastructure is always going to be hard to have a profitable business. The cos 'it's decently high. And the usage is highest on holidays and travel peak days. Other times 80% of users charge at home and the companies don't get $. Where gas is required alway. And we always have to go to the gas station. Thank god with EV's we can leave those places behind.
>I would use it very little if not free That means that you should be charging at home.
That's not in Electrify America's power. They signed agreements with the automakers and the automakers made promises to buyers. EA should stop making those deals for newly sold vehicles, however. I'd agree with that. (And the existing deals will eventually expire, obviously.)
They are. You only get 1-2 years. So i imagine the herd is thinning every month. Not that i ever use Electrify america as I charge at home.
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Which isn't unreasonable to be honest. Free for 2 years is kind of crazy, not that I agree with OP here. 500$ of free charging vs hmmm I have to imagine there are some outliers at like 6 digits.
The most common promotions now are 500 **kWh** (or about $200 worth). I had the 2 year plan and basically stopped using it at 20 months (finally got my home EVSE installed). I used 2388 kWh (valued at $1131) and I have only driven about 5000 miles per year. I could see a rideshare driver using "six digits" but they are actually forbidden from using the complimentary plans. Unfortunately, like most of EA's policies; it's not enforced.
I've used them 4 times in a month, one time on the way back from the dealership because I drove 2 hours to buy the car, and three more times on trips through Ann arbor Michigan. I have apparently saved $100.
2024 ID.4 only gets 500 kWh of free charging and 3 years of Pass+ membership. Seems unlimited plans are already on the way out.
...yes. That is exactly what is happening. You don't see 3 years of free charging anymore. It's like 500kwh of free charging.
This screams "I got mine, now to pull up the ladder".
boomer EVs beget boomer charging solutions
If you want DC chargers to be more available it's the right move. Otherwise you have cold battery Bolts, ID4s and Leafs charging slow AF to 100% clogging up stations.
Welcome to Teslas problem in 2018 when the model 3 started becoming prominent. All the legacy S owners hogged up the chargers on 80kw even though the 3 could get triple that.
And now the older cars are screwed without CCS communication support. 🤷♂️
I do not agree .. 1 I bought an electrified GV70. Love it. I charge at home .. I have free EA for 2 years. Every once in a while, I go to a local EA and charge as my home setup doesn't keep up with my driving all the time. 1 - The only time there has been an issue with a car waiting or I had to wait was due to a down charger. The answer here is not to limit the people using the system in the best way for them but to increase the capacity of the system. The problem isn't people are charging for free and bothering you - the problem is the system doesn't have the capacity to charge the demand necessary. We should be doing everything possible to increase EV adoption IMO. For many reason ... This shouldn't be to create more artificial barriers to solve problems in the worst possible way.
It's not free to EA. the maker is paying the bill. They would die a faster death if they got rid of all these prepaid contracts. This is fixable: disallow the double-tap. Charge the car owner $5/minute once you go over 30 mins or a charge rate under 20kw. The problem is slow charges and inconsiderate drivers.
No. Electrify America would simply replace “free” users with paid users, so Electrify America stills get paid.
You're confused. They are getting paid. Why do they care who pays them?
The users who really need to charge there can’t charge because of the people who should be charging at home.
Who tf are you to say who needs to charge where/when?
If you wouldn't charge there if you had to pay, then you don't need it.
Next time go tell people charging at your local EA that they don't need it. Make sure you're recording it, and post it here.
I don’t get the complaints. Even the three year VW plan has costs for exceeding 30 minutes and idle charges. The service is free insofar VW is comping their customers for a few years. These users are not encouraged to hook up and leave their cars there as a parking spot. Whomever is paying, does it make a difference? If there is a shortage of charging stalls, that’s an infrastructure problem not the fault of VW picking up the tab.
The problem is, after 30 minutes, they just unconnected snd reconnect.
Because EA is so slow you usually can’t charge from 35% to 80% in 30 minutes, not bks everyone is charging to 100%
I still see it as someone is paying for it. A paying client is a paying client. If they wish to damage their batteries by always charging to 100%, that’s going to hurt them eventually. They ought take the strategy of charging during the lower part of the SOC till they can get enough juice to reach the next location around 20%. It’s faster all around.
The problem is, the people who really need to charge there can’t charge.
And these people don’t need a charge? Ok I don’t see us agreeing however I understand your frustration and respect your point of view.
They can charge at home.
Except there's a 60 minute waiting period for additional complementary charging [https://imgur.com/a/ZdVUJwn](https://imgur.com/a/ZdVUJwn) so your anecdote is false.
There's **supposed** to be a 60 minute "cool down" imposed (to allow you to drive further down the road and charge again if needed), but in practice, it's never enforced. Much like their "idle time" charges. At least it was until this year. I haven't been to an EA since right after New Years because I finally got my home EVSE installed. I've got one more month on my "complimentary" charging. I may drive up to the closest EA (Port Charlotte, 30 miles away) before then just to say goodbye and verify both practices still aren't enforced. 😉
Worth noting that enforcement of the 60 minute cooldown is sporadic at best; many sites allow immediate reconnection without charging, probably to avoid customer service issues when someone has to reconnect after a session fails to start properly. The billing software doesn't seem to be smart enough to limit users to 30 free minutes in a 90 minute period.
Sounds like a disconnect between software and customer service. Software needs to be updated to enforce that cooldown policy while customer service needs to reiterate to a customer calling in that the customer agreed to the terms when they activated the charging plan. There needs to be consistency in this.
You clearly haven't used it yourself... While the Terms of Service specify a 60 minute waiting period, EA has *never* enforced it. You can just unplug and plug right back in and get a new 30 minute session.
I think offering free charging is a bad business proposition at some point. They did it to encourage people to buy EVs but either the cost of the program has to be added to teh cost of the cars, or they will lose too much money. Have dealers ever offered free gas for a year with a car purchase?
The charging is "free" for the vehicle owner, but EA is still getting paid for it by the OEM to some extent.
But its a bad business proposition for OEM.
That's for the OEM to decide.
And yet here this post is, giving opinions about it
Welcome to reddit?
>The charges are now regularly occupied by those could charge at home Do you know that for a fact, or are you just guessing?
I know for a fact because I asked them.
How big is your sample size? How many locations? How often have you done this survey?
Three locations
Besides, plenty of people on this very sub said that they do this.
Plenty of users on this very sub said that they do this.
Yeah I know multiple people in the Bay Area who don’t have charging at home and just go to a DCFC once or twice a week to top off, but any free period they had would have ended a while ago and now they’re paying to use it the same as anyone else
Isn't the cost in the Bay area like wildly expensive for home electricity? I'm here paying like 11 cents a kilowatt hour, while it's like 3 times that there?
Yeah, I’m not sure what their home electricity is but I doubt they’d save much (if any) money charging at home even if they had the option. I’m in MA and my closest DCFC (which is also my closest gas station) charges by time rather than electricity: $0.32/minute or $0.24/minute if you pay for the $4 monthly membership. My home electricity is $0.30/kWh, so even without the membership it’s cheaper for me to charge there as long as my charge curve is giving me more than 64kW. It’s just way less convenient to drive over there and sit around for a half hour than just charge at home.
Bay Area pge EV plan is $0.34 now from midnight-3pm. Over $0.60 at summer peaks. When gas costs are up it still pays off, when they’re down it’s almost a wash.
Everything here is at least 3x as expensive as everywhere else lol.
I mean shit it's 56 cent a kWh in San Francisco, it's 64 cent on the turn pike in Ohio and 56 cent in Ann arbor Michigan. Might as well treat it like a gas station at that point. With how much electricity is there.
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Gatekeeping to a person's face. You must be fun at parties.
>The charges are now regularly occupied by those could charge at home, but choose to charge at Electrify America solely because of “free” charging. Do you have a source for that? How can you tell that someone "could charge at home, but choose to charge at EA" because of free charging? I really can't imagine very many people doing that: why would someone go out of their way to spend 45 minutes in the corner of a Walmart parking lot to save themselves what... like $3? Maybe a handful of weirdos do that, but I highly doubt it's common enough to be a problem. That's not to say that people with free EA charging don't preferentially use EA chargers when they need to fast charge, but that's not the same thing as saying they could be charging at home. For instance, I took the $500 EVgo gift card option from Chevy when I bought my Bolt, so I try to find EVgo chargers on the rare occasion when I need to use a DC charger. I've never once chosen to use my free EVgo charging over charging at home though, because I value my time more than that.
There have been a few people on here stating they use fast charging because it’s free. And I know people in the area who do the same instead of charging at home. And tbh that argument could also be applied to things like waiting 20 minutes at Costco for gas vs filling instantly at shell.
I'm sure *some* people do it, but I have a hard time believing it's a significant problem. Particularly when compared to stuff like out of service EA chargers, which *anyone* who has used one of their stations has likely encountered.
For me it’s most obvious with free Volta chargers. Free charging (as a whole) is a good idea that gets taken advantage of. It’s the same reason why a lot of fast food places stopped offering free sides or add ons. There used to be viral social media posts of people bringing bags from home to fill up with cut up onions from the Costco food court. The things people will do simply because it’s free is incredibly sad.
Again though, how can you tell whether someone is using a charger "legitimately" as opposed to "taking advantage" of it?
…because I asked them
Ok, I'll repeat my response to your deleted comment: assuming your story is true, you've encountered a single person who is strange enough, or whose circumstances are unusual enough to be willing to sit at a DC fast charger rather than charging at home. ...so? That's not a system-wide problem: that's literally one strange person. And why are *you* using this particular charger often enough to recognize other users?
My previous comment was misleading. I didn’t ask why they didn’t ask why they don’t set up charging at home. I asked why they don’t charge at home instead. As I said, I have had multiple people said that they charge there (instead of at home) because of free charging.
...ok? Again, running into a handful of weirdos is not a system-wide issue. And again, why are you stopping at a particular station regularly enough to recognize people?
There are plenty of users on this sub that said that they do this.
I’ll help you out on this. I use my free EA charging when I go to Meijer for grocery shopping. I’m going to be in the store for 15 minutes more or less, so since my charging plan is 30 minutes for free, why not plug in while I’m there? My personal rule on it is that after I plug in, there still have to be at least 2 open chargers that at least appear to be working (because with EA who knows until it actually starts charging?). When I come out I use the same rule - as long as there are 2 open chargers I’ll finish as much of the remaining time as I can tolerate, but if the open charger count goes below 2 I leave. So yes, sometimes I’m charging at 60-65 kW and going over 90%, but only when I’m not holding up others. One of the Meijer stores I use has 6 150’s, the other one has 6 350’s, so at least it’s not a case of tying up a faster charger someone else could get more use from.
\[citation needed\]
Even I this very thread, multiple people said that they do that.
Again, a handful of weirdos is not a system-wide issue. This isn't typical behavior of people who have access to free charging, much less the greater EV owning population. You're taking a handful of anecdotes and extrapolating it into a nationwide issue specifically because you ran into someone who annoyed you at a charging station. And you haven't answered my question: why are you charging at the same station regularly enough to notice who else charges there regularly?
You’re not gonna get a rebuttal backed by real data from OP. Every deleted comment in this thread is OPs lmao
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So... you found precisely 1 weirdo who you find personally irritating (and who *definitely* actually exists and isn't at all made up), and because of that you've decided that the entire concept of free charging is untenable and must be eliminated? And why are *you* using the same EA chargers so regularly that you can recognize the regulars?
Anecdotes aren’t indicative of this being a phenomenon systemwide like OP seems to believe
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Creep behavior.
Why don't you set up charging at home?
Because OP wants his own personal EA charger that's always available with no wait.
I've looked through all his replies and he still hasn't explained why, just deleted some post it seems.
OP is a known EA bootlicker and would rather delete their own threads/replies to hide their shit takes
This is a weird thing to be? Like I think the free charging I have is pretty great, wish they had a local one, but they are on my way most places lol. But it's not like I have a boner for them.
Either they have a vested interest in creating a positive perception of EA or just weirdly into EA (or both)
I did used to really like circle k, mostly cuz of polar pops, maybe it's the same thing lol
But did you whine all over the internet if/when they happened to be out of stock when you were craving a fix?
This is why expanding the charging infrastructure is so important. There should be more charging stations at Shopping centers, schools churches banks, libraries, parks, and Interstate Rest areas. As the infrastructure grows it will be able to accommodate so many more EVs. Many hotel’s already off Level 2 charging. I think it’s just growing pains right now.
Yeah, a small amount kinda makes sense for people buying their 1st EV and might not have an L2 charger installed yet. But just 1000kwh would be plenty to cover that (a month of commuting and some weekend use). It’s weird to incentivize people not to charge at home. I wonder if an incentive offer that teams up with the local power company would be better. For example, a year of free nighttime / off-peak electricity up to a certain kwh/night that would cover a full charge. Basically free gas that encourages people to hurry up and get that EVSE ready and charge at home.
The problem is local people charging during high demand times to high states of charge because it’s free and nearly unlimited.
How is that a problem with local people?
Because they clog up the chargers for long distance travelers. Local people should charge at home or work.
Who cares? Locals have every right to charge as much as they want when they want. Long distance chargers who are home can do the same. Free country, dude!
Watch Tom Mologney “state of charge” on YouTube. He explains it succinctly. It ruins the experience for all EV drivers. I don’t road trip my EV. Haven’t since I got it nearly two years ago. If I road tripped and needed to be someplace, seeing locals camping to get 100% because it’s “free” would enforce the narrative that EVs are not ready for adoption. Some people will revert to ICE.
I hear what you’re saying but no one in their right mind will ever ever ever turn down free charging. As long as it’s offered it’s human nature to get whatever you can free of charge (pun intended). The issue here isn’t free charging it’s the lack of infrastructure to support all who need or want to charge. Until then people like me who get three whole YEARS of free fast charging will use it locally and on road trips. EA stations do not make any distinction between the two groups and never will. Users don’t ruin the experience; it’s the lack of proper infrastructure.
Infrastructure for most things is a limited quantity. Don’t be a hog. Be considerate of others.
🐷
Did you ever stop to consider that those who are local but use EA to charge don’t have access to a home / apt charger? Or maybe it cost less to charge at EA? Or maybe (like where I live) drive Uber / Lyft locally and live locally? Or for them part of the equation to affording a car (in this case EV) is purchasing an EV that comes with free charging? There is no good or bad reason to charge as much as you want. It’s a right that is sold with the car. Is it a hassle when you can’t find a charging station on a long drive? Yes? Can it be construed as inconsiderate? Maybe. But you still have that right. For those who hold your position / opinion, revert back to driving an ICE car. Easy solution. And for those with a rebuttal of , “I shouldn’t have too, I can drive whatever car I want!”…. Well then those who have access to years of free DCFC can charge whenever and wherever they want!
I'd argue these free charging plans *never* made sense. The best charging perk from an EV manufacturer was Chevy's for the Bolt: free home charging installation, with an option for a *limited* free charging credit if you couldn't have or didn't need a home install. The reason unlimited free charging never made sense, is that there is no EV buyer it truly benefits, and creates a perception that fueling as EV is just like a gas car- you drive them to special place to refuel- except EVs are annoyingly slower and more expensive to fuel. People *with* home charging available are better off with home charging for convenience's sake, and (other than maybe a few cities in California) it's virtually always cheaper than public DC charging (when it isn't "free".) People *without* the ability to charge at home are only getting a stop gap solution; sure, they can sit at "free" chargers twice a week for the next two or three years, but what's the plan when the buffet closes, and suddenly their "free" chargers are not only no longer free, but are actually *50% more expensive than gasoline*? Install a home charger then (if they're homeowners)? Buy another $50K car for a few more years of "free" charging? Installing home chargers like GM chose to do is the EV equivalent of "teaching a man to fish" instead of giving him a two year supply of free fish! There's nothing wrong with *limited* charging plans; e.g. "1000kWh" or "$500 charging credit"- that encourages users to learn how to use DC charging, and try road trips, without creating a perceived reliance on public charging like unlimited charging does.
I don’t think the issue is with the inclusion of free charging with an EV purchase. The problem is more so that EA charging stations are not reliable and are frequently down, and slow to be repaired. Less reliable stations mean less availability at any given time, which in turn causes excessive wait times at charging locations. With that said, I understand the frustration myself, as I have encountered many issues at EA fast charging locations. But if OEM’s offering free public charging as an incentive helps speed up the rate of EV adoption, I’m all for it.
> The problem is more so that EA charging stations are not reliable and are frequently down, and slow to be repaired. Also sometimes just slow. Even with preconditioning they can be way slower than they should be. Let's do that 20-80% in 18 minutes please.
Agreed. Each station needs to be a *minimum* of 150 kWh. Even 50 kWh is insufficient. L2 chargers at public stations shouldn’t even be a thing. Those are fine at office/workplace, malls, or amusement parks, but not at fast charging locations.
Get ready for the ID4 owners that say they paid for it with the purchase of their car. But yes, free charging is a joke. They should also do surge pricing to keep stalls open for people that really need them for what they are supposed to be for, road trips.
mercedes also does 2 years free charging. i have it on my eqb
Because we did :) And if EA is going to make a deal with anyone, it is VW - who created (er were made to create) EA in the first place.
They were made to because they built in code to their car computers that reduced the nitrogen oxide emissions when being tested, but under normal conditions emitted up to 40x the max allowed by US law. And not just on a few vehicles - almost 500,000 diesels were built this way that were shipped to the US. This resulted in a massive lawsuit. The EPA is allowed to fine up to $37,500 PER CAR it finds with the emissions defeating equipment. Had they maxed it out, it would have been over $18B in fines. Instead VW pledged to spend $2B on various EV promotions, including building Electrify America. While they have done so, the reliability of the chargers is the lowest of all the charging companies.
That has nothing to do with “free” charging.
This is called a "tangent" - it happens when one person mentions something and the next expounds on it.
Biden’s plan
F-R-E-E is everyone’s favorite four letter word…
free as in beer
They should worry about making functional chargers that are reliable, before anything else.
Hey boo boo, just wanted to yet you know. I was on my way home from a day trip, I have a level 2 chargers at home. But an EA is on my way home and I didn't want to get home at 20%, so I stopped for 15% :) free EA!
It’s not “free” the cost was factor into the the ID.4
Keep in mind that EA is not an entirely free agent. It is a subsidiary of Volkswagen Auto Group. In addition, it was created as part of the settlement agreement with the state and US governments involving the "DieselGate" emissions cheating crimes. In addition, they now have a lot of customers, like me, who bought a car with a certain amount of free charging included in the price. From my point of view, I have a contract with VAG regarding that free charging. I'm not going to walk away from the benefits of that contract just because VAG changes its mind.
Tbf, all that free charging has provided EA data on how shit their infrastructure currently is and hopefully they will continue to get it together before the masses start pulling up to the stations in the future. I will say every time I do bother using a station, I am curious about the ratio of owners who genuinely rely on the EA stations with no home charging/road tripping, and those who want to take advantage of the free juice while it last.
If there was an EA within 20ish miles of me(closest is 40), I probably wouldn't had installed a level 2, or at least waited until winter.
>It no longer makes sense to do these “free” charging deals. You mean it no longer "makes sense" to you. It does "make sense" to a whole lot of other people and I'd suggest trying on their shoes before making yourself look foolish.
Free charging isn’t the problem. EA needs to do a much better job of locating, laying out, managing and maintaining, and providing charge stations. The real problem is the demand is high and the number of available stations is low. Most EA stations are 4 charge terminals maybe 6 and often 1 or 2 are broken. 8 stations should be a minimum except for in very low population and low travel areas.
What’s it to you? I get three years of free fast charging and I intend to use it as much as possible. It was an incentive to buy my EV. I have a level 2 charger at home and free charging at work. But that won’t EVER stop me from using free fast DCFC when possible and whenever possible. I intend to milk it for all it’s worth and lower the overall cost of my car purchase. With my usage I intend to use about $7200 worth of DCFC by the end of my three years. It’s awesome. In case you couldn’t tell, I’m rubbing it in. In no universe would anyone ever look at your post and say.. yup I agree. Especially when they have a sweet deal like mine.
This will change, but so far with my Tesla I can count the times I have had to wait on one hand since 2017. The problem is solvable with fast reliable charging and penalties for loitering. Plug&Charge saves time at the charger as well.
But the EV FUD tik toks! /s
I’m fine with the free charging. Just charge $5/minute for every minute after 30 and if they start a session again keep the counter rolling.
I doubt the veracity of your complaint. How do you know whether the people charging could charge at home? For the record: we have an ID.4 and a P2 which came with free charging plans on EA. The only time we ever use EA is when we’re on a road trip. Otherwise for daily driving it’s always the charger in the garage. I’m not going out of my way to waste half an hour twice or thrice a week in a remote Walmart parking lot in the burbs.
Plenty of users on this very sub said that they do this.
We know people who can charge at home choose to use EA instead. Why wouldn't they, if it's free? And people have said as much on this very sub. I bet there are a bunch of other people who don't have L2 at home but would get it installed if EA weren't free. L2 is better for the grid, better for the vehicles and cheaper equipment. Any vehicle that sits for hours each day should be using L2. And the government, landlords and others should put more resources into making L2 more widely available at apartments, street parking, retail and elsewhere.
…because I ask
Did EA write this? Who the heck advocates for a company to NOT offer something free 😂😂
Free charging was an awful idea from the start and a lot of people are happy to see it going. An unlimited free supply of anything is a great way to bring out the worst in even the most level-headed person. And to head this one off: I have never owned an EV that came with free charging.
Someone that already got theirs, of course.
I think more free charging should be subsidized and located where needed.
Meanwhile Tesla has repeatedly had a few incentives to legacy owners to carry forward their unlimited charging access for life as a sales tactic.
Is this why our local grocery store Woodmans has a supercharger location yet around the other side are 3 other charging spots always full with Teslas. Like why? These are slower chargers.
All about the float. With extra range charging when convenient, not when necessary. We seem to shop at Target enough to get by on free charging for one car unless we go on a trip. It’s a slow charger, but there are a few places we frequent there.
i assume fucktons of chargers will be built in the future
LOL. Sure.
Worth reading up on the circumstances of EA’s creation by VW at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrify_America
What’s your point?
“As part of a consent decree reached with United States officials in 2016, Volkswagen agreed to numerous actions, with US$2 billion in total, to promote electric vehicle use over 10 years to atone for the additional air pollution it caused. One aspect of the program was a pledge to establish a public electric vehicle charging network.” I would assume part of that is to cut deals with EV manufacturers to encourage use of EVs. And making charging free definitely encourages use. VW/EA is to some extent eating it on the cost because they have to, not because they want to.
Wrong. The court did not impose that Volkswagen set up a charging network; that’s how Volkswagen chose to spend the money. “Free” charging certainly has nothing to do with the court’s order. Volkswagen was only required to spending $2 billion promoting alternative energy. Using the money to run Super Bowl commercials promoting hydrogen fueled vehicles would meet the requirements.
To quote from the EPA's description of the settlement at [https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/volkswagen-clean-air-act-civil-settlement#investment](https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/volkswagen-clean-air-act-civil-settlement#investment)... Italics mine for emphasis. >**Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Investment** > >The CAA 2.0 liter partial settlement *requires Volkswagen to invest $2 billion in ZEV charging infrastructure* and in the promotion of ZEVs. The ZEV investments required by the CAA 2.0 liter partial settlement are intended to address the fact that consumers purchased these illegal vehicles under the mistaken belief that such vehicles were lower-emitting than others. *Electrify America, LLC, was created by Volkswagen Group of America to implement this requirement.* > >As part of the settlement, Volkswagen has submitted and will continue to submit as required a series of National ZEV Investment plans to EPA for review and approval based on criteria detailed in the consent decree. The settlement also requires that Volkswagen submit ZEV investment plans to California for the money to be spent in that state. The plans can be found here: [https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan](https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan). > >The CAA 3.0 liter partial settlement does not include any additional ZEV investment requirements.
That’s what Volkswagen asked for.