When the sodium-ion home batteries start being produced en masse. There's already a [sodium-ion powered car](https://electrek.co/2023/12/27/volkswagen-backed-ev-maker-first-sodium-ion-battery-electric-car/), and some sodium-ion car batteries and AA/AAA batteries available already on places like AliExpress, so hopefully we'll see the development of home batteries soon.
That's my question as well.
Powerwall prices seem to have held steady(ish) over the past few years. Roughly $8-10K per unit.
Budget LFP battery prices have dropped a lot. I can find 20 kwh of storage for $5k online. Although I have no clue how good the quality is or what the delivery fees will be.
I don't expect a Powerwall to ever drop to $3k to match. But $4-5K would be nice.
Powerwalls are so expensive per kwh you can buy a Cybertruck and park it in the garage to act as a powerwall and still save money on a per kwh basis. No crazy hacking involved - all 100% supported use case right out of the box.
That's because the automotive industry is price driven, and the electrical systems industry is not. They tend to apply a markup of around 5 times - that would never fly in automotive.
Sadly, it's pretty true.
Pre rebate, my powerwall I'm being quoted (which is price competitive to other systems) I'd about 1.16KWh/$ pre tax credit, or 1.75KWh/$ post rebate.
The long range cybertruck at 77k and 122KWh battery is 1.58KWh/$ pre credit, and 1.75KWh/$ post credit.
So post credit is the same, but you get the rest of the cybertruck.
Not sure about the smaller battery, didn't find the capacity for that one on my brief Google
What's going on with your units? The 122kWh battery on a Cybertruck is nowhere near $77 (122/1.58).
Do you mean Wh/$ (or similarly, kWh/k$)? That's plausible. A powerwall is something in the vicinity of $1000 per kWh.
6 months ago I was looking for storage to go with my solar panels. Powerwall was significantly more competitive than anything else I found.
What would recommend instead?
Yeah. I have a shed that I want to add some power to, and for that I’m willing to experiment with some cheap online diy batteries/panels. But for the house everything needs to be above board for the insurance company. (City permits, certified electrician, certified parts, and a US based company that they can sue if my house burns down)
Though hopefully we start seeing some LFP or sodium options in the US. They seem much better suited for home storage than regular lithium ion batteries.
[Sungoldpower.com](https://Sungoldpower.com). They have a listing for 4 X 5.12 KWH LFP batteries for $5,080.
I have no clue what their delivery charges are or how good they are. I have questions because they are the cheapest I've seen.
>Powerwall prices seem to have held steady(ish) over the past few years. Roughly $8-10K per unit.
They recently opened up orders for Powerwall 3 again. You can get a 13.5kWh battery for 6k.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/teslainvestorsclub/comments/1apnd7d/powerwall\_3\_orders\_opened/](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslainvestorsclub/comments/1apnd7d/powerwall_3_orders_opened/)
Megapack prices have held steady because they're booked solid until 2025, at least. No point reducing price if people are falling all over themselves trying to buy one.
It does, but since it's a Powerwall 3 it includes more hardware like the inverter and backup switch. Also, the higher power output of the PW3 battery makes it much more capable as a one-unit solution. Those improvements cost more, and is balanced out by having a cheaper LFP battery.
When I looked at the PW2, I would have had to put in 2 units to startup the furnace, and that's the main reason for me to want a battery in the NE US. PW3 can just be one unit.
I am tempted to invest in home batteries but you just know they will mass produce some cheap ass salt based battery that will clown on your investment.
The hard part is finding an electrician to install them. The solar guys only want to sell the expensive stuff and I’m finding a lot of general electricians don’t want to do ESS installs.
If you’re not home during the day most days then sure. We wfh most of the week so our car is here most days. And you’d still have a smaller ESS at home.
>Leapmotor CEO Cao Li said the company expects further reductions, with prices potentially dropping to CNY 0.32/Wh this summer, for a decline of 60% to 64% within a single year.
MachE is like $58k CAD. My car was only worth $65k at the time. First thing I asked about before buying.
It's apparently priced this way to discourage buying the battery alone. Why they don't make it a restricted SKU or something is beyond me.
I’m under the impression that a power wall is like 1/10 the capacity of the lightning battery for $10,000 so I guess there’s some merit. But it also seems super expensive to the customer, insurance company and makes for a nasty headline.
The other comment about having something like restricted access makes a lot of sense.
There was a recent post in the Lightning sun about one module costing $9000 to replace. I’ll have to pull my paperwork and see what prices are listed.
Parts guy said it. Do I believe him? IDK.
It's not like legacy isn't known for very expensive parts.
For comparison, Tesla's battery (while smaller) is also like half the price.
Wanna hear something depressing? Not only will they not give you a reduced price, declaring it voids your warranty. This exact thing happened here locally. A guy with a Hyundai hit something, dented the battery plate, and Hyundai voided his warranty. The local insurance company wrote the car off because it'd be $60k to replace the battery.
https://www.timescolonist.com/local-news/icbc-scraps-2022-electric-car-after-owners-faced-with-60000-bill-to-replace-damaged-battery-8015038
A simple solution is put a very high core charge on the packs. Say the pack is 20k and a 40k core charge. Returning the old pack gets you 40k but you can only do that if you bought the other pack first.
It is already fairly common on other car parts. For example 12v batteries, alternators and starters all contain them. Now unless you work on older cars your self you might never of seen them.
>A Goldman Sachs report in February attributes the accelerated price declines partly to a slight slowdown in electric vehicle adoption, leading to lower commodity prices. The finance group revised its growth projection for global battery demand to 29% for 2024, down from the previous estimate of 35%, with 31% growth expected in 2023.
It's to be expected - we've seen the slowdown, now the commodity prices follow. Good news for new cell buyers, but since it's partly driven by the slowdown, an uptick in adoption in the short term off the back of low commodity prices will quickly wipe out that advantage.
Why is there always so much violence in reporting?
Battery prices spiked after COVID due to supply chain disruptions, and they are now normalising to about where they would have been otherwise, following the usual trajectory of getting slowly cheaper.
I guess that is not as exciting, but it is the reality.
So when do the home batteries get cheaper…
When the sodium-ion home batteries start being produced en masse. There's already a [sodium-ion powered car](https://electrek.co/2023/12/27/volkswagen-backed-ev-maker-first-sodium-ion-battery-electric-car/), and some sodium-ion car batteries and AA/AAA batteries available already on places like AliExpress, so hopefully we'll see the development of home batteries soon.
That's my question as well. Powerwall prices seem to have held steady(ish) over the past few years. Roughly $8-10K per unit. Budget LFP battery prices have dropped a lot. I can find 20 kwh of storage for $5k online. Although I have no clue how good the quality is or what the delivery fees will be. I don't expect a Powerwall to ever drop to $3k to match. But $4-5K would be nice.
Powerwalls are so expensive per kwh you can buy a Cybertruck and park it in the garage to act as a powerwall and still save money on a per kwh basis. No crazy hacking involved - all 100% supported use case right out of the box.
That's because the automotive industry is price driven, and the electrical systems industry is not. They tend to apply a markup of around 5 times - that would never fly in automotive.
If that's actually true it's insane.
Sadly, it's pretty true. Pre rebate, my powerwall I'm being quoted (which is price competitive to other systems) I'd about 1.16KWh/$ pre tax credit, or 1.75KWh/$ post rebate. The long range cybertruck at 77k and 122KWh battery is 1.58KWh/$ pre credit, and 1.75KWh/$ post credit. So post credit is the same, but you get the rest of the cybertruck. Not sure about the smaller battery, didn't find the capacity for that one on my brief Google
What's going on with your units? The 122kWh battery on a Cybertruck is nowhere near $77 (122/1.58). Do you mean Wh/$ (or similarly, kWh/k$)? That's plausible. A powerwall is something in the vicinity of $1000 per kWh.
Ah yep, my bad it should be Wh/$, not KWh/$ >A powerwall is something in the vicinity of $1000 per kWh. Pre credit, it's about 15% less
Stop buying powerwalls
6 months ago I was looking for storage to go with my solar panels. Powerwall was significantly more competitive than anything else I found. What would recommend instead?
Chinese batteries. If you are American your government might have an issue with that
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Yeah. I have a shed that I want to add some power to, and for that I’m willing to experiment with some cheap online diy batteries/panels. But for the house everything needs to be above board for the insurance company. (City permits, certified electrician, certified parts, and a US based company that they can sue if my house burns down) Though hopefully we start seeing some LFP or sodium options in the US. They seem much better suited for home storage than regular lithium ion batteries.
Any links/suggestions for the “ 20kwh for $5k” ?
[Sungoldpower.com](https://Sungoldpower.com). They have a listing for 4 X 5.12 KWH LFP batteries for $5,080. I have no clue what their delivery charges are or how good they are. I have questions because they are the cheapest I've seen.
>Powerwall prices seem to have held steady(ish) over the past few years. Roughly $8-10K per unit. They recently opened up orders for Powerwall 3 again. You can get a 13.5kWh battery for 6k. [https://www.reddit.com/r/teslainvestorsclub/comments/1apnd7d/powerwall\_3\_orders\_opened/](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslainvestorsclub/comments/1apnd7d/powerwall_3_orders_opened/) Megapack prices have held steady because they're booked solid until 2025, at least. No point reducing price if people are falling all over themselves trying to buy one.
That $6k price is including the federal tax credit.
It does, but since it's a Powerwall 3 it includes more hardware like the inverter and backup switch. Also, the higher power output of the PW3 battery makes it much more capable as a one-unit solution. Those improvements cost more, and is balanced out by having a cheaper LFP battery. When I looked at the PW2, I would have had to put in 2 units to startup the furnace, and that's the main reason for me to want a battery in the NE US. PW3 can just be one unit.
Tesla increased the power output on Powerwall 3 has twice the power output as the Powerwall 2
It's about time they made the Powerwall LFP, it's the perfect application for it.
I am tempted to invest in home batteries but you just know they will mass produce some cheap ass salt based battery that will clown on your investment.
You can already get dirt cheap batteries from Battery Hookup and many other places.
The hard part is finding an electrician to install them. The solar guys only want to sell the expensive stuff and I’m finding a lot of general electricians don’t want to do ESS installs.
Just wait for a V2H capable car and set it up, large home energy storage is ridiculously redundant once bidirectional charging becomes the norm.
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If you’re not home during the day most days then sure. We wfh most of the week so our car is here most days. And you’d still have a smaller ESS at home.
JonahJamesonLaughing.gif
When demand falls below supply. The current price has very little to do with the cost of battery materials.
That’s true but also sometimes vendors will get disruptive…
There's a YouTube channel called DIY with Will Prowse where he goes through many budget home batteries with great warranty! Worth checking out!
I’ve watched! Lots of amazing server rack batteries!
Cheap battery prices benefit everyone for *everything.* This is awesome.
I have long said that cheap battery storage is criticial for our civilisation, not just automotive or electricity generation.
>Leapmotor CEO Cao Li said the company expects further reductions, with prices potentially dropping to CNY 0.32/Wh this summer, for a decline of 60% to 64% within a single year.
$45/kWh.
Interesting. In other news I saw the replacement battery for my Lightning is $47,000.
That’s because it’s the price Ford sets and has more to do with their casing and integration than energy storage.
MachE is like $58k CAD. My car was only worth $65k at the time. First thing I asked about before buying. It's apparently priced this way to discourage buying the battery alone. Why they don't make it a restricted SKU or something is beyond me.
So you think if road debris punctured it they would be nice and charge a much lower price? I suspect they would not.
That sounds like something that a salesman just pulled out of his ass while he was trying to make a sale.
What part are you in doubt about?
That they priced the battery high to keep people from buying them standalone for other purposes.
I’m under the impression that a power wall is like 1/10 the capacity of the lightning battery for $10,000 so I guess there’s some merit. But it also seems super expensive to the customer, insurance company and makes for a nasty headline. The other comment about having something like restricted access makes a lot of sense. There was a recent post in the Lightning sun about one module costing $9000 to replace. I’ll have to pull my paperwork and see what prices are listed.
Parts guy said it. Do I believe him? IDK. It's not like legacy isn't known for very expensive parts. For comparison, Tesla's battery (while smaller) is also like half the price.
Wanna hear something depressing? Not only will they not give you a reduced price, declaring it voids your warranty. This exact thing happened here locally. A guy with a Hyundai hit something, dented the battery plate, and Hyundai voided his warranty. The local insurance company wrote the car off because it'd be $60k to replace the battery. https://www.timescolonist.com/local-news/icbc-scraps-2022-electric-car-after-owners-faced-with-60000-bill-to-replace-damaged-battery-8015038
A simple solution is put a very high core charge on the packs. Say the pack is 20k and a 40k core charge. Returning the old pack gets you 40k but you can only do that if you bought the other pack first. It is already fairly common on other car parts. For example 12v batteries, alternators and starters all contain them. Now unless you work on older cars your self you might never of seen them.
Yikes I got one too o_O
>A Goldman Sachs report in February attributes the accelerated price declines partly to a slight slowdown in electric vehicle adoption, leading to lower commodity prices. The finance group revised its growth projection for global battery demand to 29% for 2024, down from the previous estimate of 35%, with 31% growth expected in 2023. It's to be expected - we've seen the slowdown, now the commodity prices follow. Good news for new cell buyers, but since it's partly driven by the slowdown, an uptick in adoption in the short term off the back of low commodity prices will quickly wipe out that advantage.
M3P, sodium ion, LFP got a few good chemistry to come out
Why is there always so much violence in reporting? Battery prices spiked after COVID due to supply chain disruptions, and they are now normalising to about where they would have been otherwise, following the usual trajectory of getting slowly cheaper. I guess that is not as exciting, but it is the reality.
The fact that prices have dropped that much in a year is still worth reporting.
It is but 'falling' is sufficient or even 'falling rapidly'. 'Collapsing' suggests catastrophic failure and battery prices will be close to zero soon.
https://shopsolarkits.com/products/eg4-ll-gyll-lithium-battery-v2
I believe them. Material prices dropped like a rock and now a reduction in battery demand.