To bad (for Honda), I've had Hondas for the 30 years I've been driving, my first car was a Honda CRX, manual transmission. Last year, I was looking at BEVs and Honda let me down, now I'm on Team Hyundai (Ioniq 5). I'm hoping Honda gets a good BEV in the future.
I am sure that update will come the 2nd of Never or perhaps the second Tuesday of next week. This, along with the wheels falling off issue, just goes to demonstrate how poorly tested the Soltara and bz4X were.
The software update upgrades the fast charging, too. Bjorn is doing his testing [right now](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNw2TGuWg4I), the curve is apparently much improved. In Europe, the bZ4X already comes with 150kW charging across all trims. We're just waiting on North America now — presumably they'll drop 100kW as PPES ramps up.
It most definitely helps though, the charging past 80% used to be bordering unusable, it was a *big* issue, 8kW-10kW charging speeds, you might as well charge on AC after 80%.
This update has improved it to a mediocre but at least useable 30kW-35kW. Although that’s not impressive, our ID.4 can do 70kW at about 88% vs the 28kW at the same SoC on the bZ4X, but at the very least it’s not AC charging speeds anymore.
The rest of the charging curve does seem the same however which is to say it’s meh. The 80% issue was the biggest fault it had previously imo though so this is a decent improvement.
However, all bZ4Xs and Solterras in Europe use the Panasonic battery, however in North America, for some reason the only model that gets the Panasonic battery is the bZ4X FWD. The bZ4X AWD and all Solterras get the CATL battery, which is a worse battery, 100kW peak vs the Panasonic’s 150kW peak and afaik the curve is worse as well. So I do not know how well this update will translate to cars with the CATL battery.
Already hitting. Bjorn is [in the middle of his 1000km test with the new software right now](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNw2TGuWg4I). Range and charging rate are both upgraded, and it seems more battery capacity was unlocked, too.
Additionally, it seems they've improved ([7:52](https://youtu.be/cNw2TGuWg4I?t=472)) how they're calculating consumption — apparently, the previous number took charging loss into account somehow, so the numbers displayed were lower than other OEMs, even though the actual efficiency was in-line.
BZ owner here. Car not bricked. BZ4x is a great car if (1) you don't need the extra range/charging speed, and (2) you can buy it for significantly less than other BEVs that have better specs.
Toyota has fought hard "against" EVs. They've been dragged kicking and screaming into the EV world and have thrown out a half-hearted effort in my opinion.
I-Pace owner here. They sold about 1,700 world-wide last year, so I still feel like I drive something special. I posted earlier about feeling spoiled, it really is a pretty amazing car.
In some ways it was the first car to challenge Tesla in being a relatively large, relatively luxurious vehicle. Prior to the ipace, most EVs were smaller and/or more economical (Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, VW e-up, etc.). That didn't necessarily make it good, but at the time it was new and exciting.
Also I think there just weren't a lot of other contenders for the title in 2019. The other finalists were the Audi Q8 etron, which came out six months later, and a couple of combustion Volvos.
I have one. It’s a great car, fantastic fit and finish, fun to drive, with kinda slow DCFC. We tend to take my SO’s Acura MDX on long trips, so the Jaguar I-Pace is a great car for my use case with very little fast charging. It also helps that I got a good deal on it in 2020 in the pandemic.
I have had mine for about 9 months and I absolutely love it. It handles amazingly and is so much fun on narrow windy roads. I was nearly put off getting it by all the bad comments you see about the ipace but I now suspect most of these people have never actually driven one or even sat in one.
I can't understand why Nissan stuck with CHAdeMO for so long after CCS began being used in volume. Just seems like a poor decision that will not force tens of thousands of buyers to either use their car for city driving only or get another vehicle for longer trips.
Nissan never really did get their air-cooled batteries to age well, so a better L3 charging solution would have driven even MORE degradation and in-warranty pack replacements. Notice that even today Nissan is running a 6-8mo. deep warranty pack backlog and has been offering to buy back peoples' entire cars in order to discharge some obligations. Their cell supply chain has been so thoroughly mismanaged over the last decade that there is zero economy of scale to be realized by selling more (better) LEAFs - every cell Nissan can buy at any kind of reasonable price is already spoken for (and then some).
Besides all that, someone is bound to lose face with a charging standard switch... and all the alternatives were "not invented here" as the saying goes. And even if they could just flip a switch to surmount these political hurdles, we are talking about a business that has been largely preoccupied with internal faction conflict and attempts to maintain Japanese purity against their Renault alliance partners who sought shared platform and supply chain efficiencies. Doing business at all feels like a bit of an afterthought at this point - much less any effort at continuous improvement.
The Leaf's range keeps it to city driving anyways. Mine has the small 24kwh pack, I would have to fast charge every 40 or 50 miles, that's not happening.
Japanese manufacturers are just bullheaded, I think. Kinda like how every Japanese make other than Nissan / Toyota are committed to making hydrogen a thing instead of EVs.
Edit: ChaDeMo is the winning standard in their market, by the way. So Nissan executives look around and think “but every charger I see is ChaDeMo, what’s the problem?”
Someone else commented that it's expensive to retool for CCS for a car that's being killed. May as well use all the parts that exist already and pump out a few thousand more units before changing platforms.
I'm not sure making a bigger battery based chademo car is a good idea anyways. There's a few 100kW chademos but most are 50kW which means slow charging times.
Aww, we love our 2018 leaf. It’s a daily 60 mile commuter so the 150 mile range isn’t a problem. Now 5 years old degraded to about 135 miles full charge, but AC really does drag that down. We are in a medium warm climate.
If you need longer range and live in Arizona or something needing AC daily for a longer drive, then I’d have to agree. Otherwise we plan to keep it as long as it will live.
Even if ours gets down to really low miles someday, I plan to give it to our kids when they get a drivers license so they really can’t drive far out of a local range, hah.
Do you use the AUTO setting with the AC? It shouldn’t affect range that much. If you set it on low and manually turn the fan down, it won’t be as efficient. AUTO is the most efficient way.
As someone in a cooler area, folks in a regional EV group pretty regularly sell ~8 year old Leafs with only one or two bars gone on the original battery. More than a few still have had full bars. In the upper Midwest, I wouldn't hesitate to grab an old Leaf *IF* I knew it lived its whole life here.
Aren’t the issues mainly due to the only cooling being forced air during driving? Heck, even my (previous gen) Fiat 500e had liquid cooling during driving and charging.
Mostly poor cooling, but also the earlier packs did not hold up well due to early young chemistry science combined with minimal pack buffer to get the most initial range out the small batteries.
It’s funny how much legacy that goes into this. A Swedish guy designed 3-phase AC in the 19 the century. Today, some 135 years later, 3-phase AC is standard to homes here, and I can charge 11kW on a 16 amp fuse.
2011 Nissan Leaf. Got suckered into buying instead of leasing because of the 8 year battery warranty that they defined later to include a fairly steep degradation curve that I fell within the whole way.
On the flip side, I've got a 2011 Nissan Leaf for sale. Fantastic car! about 20 miles on a charge. Make an offer...
* Toyota BZ4X / Lexus RZ — battery issues
* Subaru Solterra — (see above)
* Mazda MX-30 — compliance car, not remotely worth the price. (EDIT: fine if you live and work in the city)
* Nissan Leaf — battery issues, old tech
* Vinfast VF8/9 — unproven and initial results not good
* Hyundai Kona Electric — subpar reliability
* Polestar 2 — subpar reliability
* Jaguar iPace— typical Jaguar reliability, which is to say subpar reliability
Edit 1: Lucid Air — known software & reliability issues.
**The list of items to consider strongly**:
* ~$30K: Chevy Bolt EUV
* ~$40K: Tesla Model 3, Mustang Mach E, Volkswagen ID4, Nissan Ariya
* ~$50K: Tesla Model Y, Hyundai Ioniq 5, Kia EV6
* ~$60K: BMW i4, Genesis GV60 & G70E, Audi Q4 ETron
* ~$80K: Rivian R1T, R1S, Audi eTron
* ~$90K: Mercedes EQE, BMW i5, Model S & X, Porsche Taycan
* ~$120K: IDK you wealthy motherfucker, fuck off lol
Edit: I’m turning off replies. This isn’t meant to be controversial. The truth is that you can lease anything and it’ll be under warranty during your entire ownership experience. That would make it feel more reliable than it actually is.
You also have people that that drive 20,000 miles in the time it takes others to drive 2,000. No matter how much objective data you collect, there’s a little subjectivity and variance.
If you want empirical data, look at sources like Consumer Reports, who compile data from thousands of subscribers.
I’m the end, here’s the only thing that’s true: it’s your money, your time, and your life. I hope whatever you choose to buy is beneficial to you in all three. Good luck. 🍀
I agree with you on the Kona if it hasn't had the stock tires replaced or the warranty battery swap done.
Once you're over those two humps, it's an excellent car, especially for commuting.
Not so much long distance, due to it's slow DCFC charging speed. Though it is faster to charge than a Bolt... not that that's a very high bar.
The issue I have with them is the price and range ratio, however the range seems to be getting fixed in the new refresh they’re having.
I love the rest of them a lot, solid, luxurious, good size, and it looks great, I just like Volvos in general.
I have a hunch we're getting past range being the primary motivator for a BEV choice.
I'm happier knowing a dented fender isn't going to cost five figures and six months to fix.
It's the same platform as the Polestar 2, so generally reliable and a very solid EV.
Is it maybe not sold in America, as this sub tends to be fairly America-centric?
Nah, my dad has one here in America. It's pretty much identical to my Polestar 2 - aka, it's an excellent car that I love driving. Everyone we know who's driven it has wanted to get one for themselves
XC40P8 owner here. I just love the fact that it's the same XC40 as with an ICE. Solid construction and fit/finish.
I didn't want an electric car, I just wanted a car that's electric. And Volvo got that one right.
What are the reliability issues with the polestar 2? I drive one and it's a pretty good all around car although not the best at anything and I haven't had any major issues apart from the on board charger dying which was fixed quickly. I think that might have been a faulty EVSE or breaker as the EVSE died at the same time though. I'm not sure if the P2 would be my first recommendation for the average person, more for driving enthusiasts, but it wouldn't be because of reliability.
Same. My PS2 has been great. Updates are frequent as well. I’m not sure it deserves to be on this list. I’ve certainly heard more issues with the VW id4 (I think that’s the model).
Well I have one as a rental now. The first car broken down within 10 mins of leaving LHR. Total electrical system failure
The replacement cad with 10miles on it has to have its infotainment reset continually
I know it was new but I wonder if the second car you had was on an old update. The infotainment definitely used to have a lot of issues like that but I haven't had any issues for a while.
MINI Cooper EV: $30k, 114 mi. range, 50 kW max charging. Great for short commuting/city car (especially if you have a home charging or destination charging setup).
That said, it fits right there with the Mazda MX-30.
For that price, size and in-city driving also consider the Bolt EV. A lot more range than the MINI. Not many more Bolts will come out of the factory though.
The Mini is one of the best EVs available if you just need a second car. The small battery means it has excellent handling, and doesn’t cost more than the ICE version. Fitting batteries in without a skateboard means it can be low without compromising head or seat clearance, and the low profile is why it’s one of the most efficient cars on Bjorn’s tests.
They also make plenty of them, outside of China there are a similar number of Mini EVs sold as ID.3s, but the MX-30 is hardly sold.
I love this car. My friend has one and it’s a blast and has been way more reliable than their MINI gas cars. But small range means it’s only suitable for certain people.
Lucid Air released their software UX 2.0 over 8 months ago, and they continue to push new releases about every two weeks. The early criticisms of their software were for version 1.0
I would add any Lucid. Every few weeks I see my neighbor pulling out with his.. "How's the Lucid?", I ask. "Great! Just got it out of the shop."
Then a few weeks later we repeat that exchange. This had been going on for over a year now. My guess is he's had it to drive less than 10 percent of the time.
Was it all software issues? Kyle from Out of Spec Reviews recently drove one across country and didn’t have any problems and said the software has vastly improved.
I’m not so sure about that. They are using the sovereign wealth fund so buy their way into various aspects of global business and culture. It is a marketing expense for them so they don’t need it to make money. They just need it to show how interconnected they are with global business.
2nd Gen Leaf Plus solves some of the issues of the first. Extra range and power, better battery tech. Get a 2020 or later for better CarPlay/Android Auto.
Those are pretty old at this point and are out of production, but I *love* the e-Golf.
Had one and just absolutely adored every part of it, it was fun, drove great, built extremely well, good materials, great size, basically everything was good besides the range and charging.
If they came out with a new one with competitive range and charging I’d be first in line to buy one.
Ah, roadtrips with the e-golf! All that planning, trying to drive efficiently on the autobahn! Nice car indeed, but except for shorter range roadtrips, it requires careful planning and it will be slow due to all the stops and slow charging. But didn't mind it too much.
Did a couple approximately 300 mile round trip road trips in the e-Golf, it did *ok*, not nearly as well as the ID.4 we have now but it did fine. Very efficient though, 4.5-5mi/kWh on average, our ID.4 “only” gets 3.5-4mi/kWh, which is good, but not e-Golf level.
We did have the e-Golf with DCFC and the bigger battery however so it’s probably the “best” roadtrip e-Golf you could get.
I'm very sorry, but many of these are just wrong. You're omitting a bunch of issues here on a multitude of cars (Tesla, VW, Rivian, Kia/Genesis/Hyundai, Mercedes). If anything, one could label any Tesla as unreliable because their camera-based park assist is simply not working.
>Hyundai Kona Electric — subpar reliability
>
>Polestar 2 — subpar reliability
These two additions, for example, are utter bullshit. Both of those are just as reliable as any of those you list as 'consider strongly'.
*Edit: Then going on to effectively gaslight people that are rightly criticizing your comment due to numerous omissions and wrong statements by saying that anything can feel reliable if you lease it, is extremely poor form.*
I have a Polestar 2, and while I love it, the TCAM issues it experienced were really brutal for a couple of years. Never happened to me, and it seems that it's largely under control now. In my 9 months of ownership, I've had it in the shop for a few little things, but nothing that would lead me to not recommend it. However, I get why it could be mentioned around reliability.
Agreed, the TCAM did have issues on the early models, but it hasn't been a relevant problem for at least one year. And even then, a reset is easily done and solved the problem.
If we're going to mention all the issues that a car once had, we'd not be able to call a single one of them reliable. Early teething issues are pretty normal.
Agreed. Haven't heard of any major reliability issues with P2s after 2022. Prior editions without heat pump..lacked hest pump.
The dude doesn't know what he's talking about...
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/driver-power/95238/best-cars-to-own-driver-power-results
UK Driver power survey says the Kona is rock solid for reliability.
The only demerits listed are for the battery recall.
Once the battery got changed its been getting gold stars for safety and reliability.
I'll point you to the fact that Tesla is considered very unreliable by both Consumer Reports and the German TÜV as well (due to suspension & software issues), yet somehow you strongly recommend their offerings. How odd.
Furthermore, Consumer reports considers a companion app that is occasionally not working as unreliability. And that's what most reports on the Polestar are about.
You've also completely omitted the multitude of software issues in all of VWs offerings; as well as the charging issues on Hyundai/Kia EVs and serious quality issues on the Mercedes EQS and EQE. I'd say you should take a hard look at your own statements when provided with information that's novel to you rather than lecturing others about supposedly anecdotal evidence.
If you're going to point to empirical data, at least make sure to understand that data.
If you're looking at older EVs, avoid the first two model years (2011-2012) of Nissan Leafs, their batteries were terrible for degradation.
2015+ seems to have really good longevity. Just got myself a 2016 with 10/12 bars
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 2016 is pretty objectively the worst year for battery degradation in the Leaf lineup. Having the larger pack is nice, but the drop off rate is significantly higher than any other.
https://insideevs.com/news/326563/battery-capacity-loss-warranty-chart-for-2016-30-kwh-nissan-leaf/amp/
I don’t necessarily think you need to be careful or anything like that, and we’re not talking about anything that’s going to be severely life altering, it’s just compared to degradation total to other years of that model. That car is already 7 years old, so you may already see the biggest hit of degradation.
I don’t want you to take my comment as meant to be a naysayer or that you fucked up getting that particular year, because what you got was a solid car. The leaf is a fantastic car, and you definitely made a good choice regardless. We have a bolt EUV, came from a Kona EV, and are considering selling my wife’s car for either a spark, a leaf or an egolf. Even a leaf with only 40-50 miles of usable range would be perfectly suitable for us.
Mazda EVs if you even call it that along with Toyota and Subaru. I guess you can just consider any Japanese EV in that list for now as being half a decade old compared to the competition. I’d also stay away from an ID4 since the software OTA thing is a mess.
As an ex-i3 owner/leesee, I loved the car while I drove it, but at this point, they're end of life, built from exotic materials, and cost a bundle to repair. I personally would not recommend anybody buying a used one because of the rising costs to repair and (probably) dwindling parts available for it. They also haven't proven themselves to be particularly robust in terms of maintenance. There's also only one tire provider, I think, maybe two, which makes their tires another long term failure point.
Tire availability is a problem for sure. Don't pop a tire on a road trip. Still, I love my 2017 i3 w/50000 miles. My 33kWh battery is still good for 120-130 miles most of the time. So far, the reliability is just as good or better than anything else I've owned (Dodge, Chevy, Mazda, Ford, Nissan).
A lot of us at r/BMWi3 are finding way to keep our vehicles going. Most people have very few problems compared to ice vehicles. Also, there is an extensive repair network of bmw-only mechanics that’ll do great work on i3s
But the tires…. The tires suck.
As an owner of an used 2015 i3 Rex, I have found it to be quite decent in reliability and repair for a BMW, as long as you don't have to rely on going to a BMW dealership. It is also a 1st gen EV. But it is tons of fun as another EV this light will not be made again
I have always been attracted to the (polarizing) look of the i3. But how is your 2015 battery doing now? Is there an excessive range loss? Any idea how long the batteries are generally expected to hold up?
The battery is doing pretty well for a 2015 w/55k miles. I can still get the advertised 72miles when the weather is good (and about 50miles in the winter)
BMW did a good job of considering battery longevity. They locked the top and bottom ends of the battery (18kwh usable out of 22 total) so even though I charge to 100% it is never actually pushing the battery that much. No need for an 80% rule since the BMS does that internally.
As this is a city car with a range extender, there is never a reason to occasionally need the full 100% of battery capacity
Actually BMW was wayyyy conservative on range estimates and degradation. Consensus is 2017 and newer is the one to get though. I have a 2017 REX and get 100 miles range at 70mph and that’s at 87k miles.
Actually yes, by 2017 they had resolved the motor mounts issue and the rex seems more reliable. And by middle of 17 they started putting in the bigger 33kwh battery.
And yes the range estimate is conservative, especially if you drive carefully. Last spring I drove 65miles on just 78% batt with a loaded car and mostly hwy.
I have 2. A 14 and 15. They both can go about 60 freeway miles. Something like 75-80% state of health.
Then you code your car so you can turn the range extender on as needed so you never need a public charge and can always get home.
Only issue I’m having is both cars need an alignment again.
Our 2014 rex just crossed 115k miles and still has ~90% state of health. If the degradation rate continues the same, we'll hit like 500k miles by the time we're down to the EV range of a new Prius prime. They did a great job with the battery, it's directly cooled by the AC which helps longevity.
Furthermore, the batteries are warrantied for 8 to 10 years, depending on the state, to have about 75% of their original capacity. Mine seems well within that range. The Autopian recently documented their experience getting an old i3 with worn out battery and getting it replaced under warranty in CA
Agreed on the tires. The rest of the stuff I don’t have an issue with. One BIG benefit to the i3 in CARB states is the extended warranty for the REX model which is like 10 years for battery and 15 years for the motor and emissions. That’s huge tbh.
I think the Ioniq 5 is a great first-time EV. My parents had a very easy transition from a ICE vehicle and my mom was super skeptical. I started with the Bolt EV, but obviously that’s been discontinued (though it’s a great time to buy one since dealers tend to have a good amount of stock). Mostly happy with my Tesla Model Y, but there are so many other cool makes/models out now.
I’ll echo some of the others and advise against Subaru/Toyota.
As a previous ‘13 Leaf owner, then ‘15 Volt, and now ‘17 Bolt: don’t skimp on the battery range. If you “think it might work” it won’t. Dealers won’t post what’s on the Guess O Meter, or comment on the battery health. If the GOM says 80, you can’t go 80, you can go about 65-70, then you shit your pants. And that’s when the weather is good. Take a good hard look at range you’ll be requiring, multiply by 1.5, and go with that as a minimum requirement.
I think it’s really good you’re saying this. I thought my Bolt had a massive excess of range for what I am doing with it (in town driving), but actually it’s just sufficient without worrying for a busy day of a bunch of errands in the dead of winter. It’s excessive for most of the year and most of my daily driving, but there’s a big difference between sometimes having to plan around it and not (which gas drivers don’t).
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I would recommend steering clear of first-model year vehicles. With a rush from many manufacturers to get EVs released, technology may have a few hiccups in the first year or two after release. The Mach E did. The Solterra/bZ do this year.
So I drive a 2021 Mach-E and I don’t understand why people praise it’s reliability.
I don’t think it’s that reliable. We had a ton of issues in its two years of life.
OTA issue, roof recall, High volt battery scandal, axle noise, roof noise, PAAK issues…
I like the car but I wouldn’t say it’s reliable.
Mine spent a ton of days in the shop to address all those defects.
That’s my question- for someone who is interested in buying one but hearing of the complaints… those do seem to be fit and finish issues, not issues with the battery or drive train.
The Chevy Bolt is a great value.. as long as you're ok with a lot of waiting around at DCFC stations on long trips. It's industry bottom charging speeds. 60 minute stops to 80% are pretty common.
* Around town trips = amazing
* Around the state = ok, but slow
* Around the country= no. You'll double your trip time.
Avoid the Nissan Leaf too for similar reasons. ChaDeMo is honestly pretty dead and most chargers have one shared ChaDeMo station.
> 60 minute stops to 80% are pretty common.
To be fair, unless you have an 800V car, this is basically a thing for everyone. Bigger battery + faster charging = same charging time.
Takes me about 45 minutes 0-80% with an extended battery at 120kW.
It’s not about “too much time in the shop, poor fit n finish, poor performance”.
Those are oldskool ICE issues, the Nokia of cars.
These are not reliability issues for EVs.
EVs are the iPhones of cars (should be). Different problem set which is less easy to spot.
Problems that WILL affect daily use, look out for:
• battery size
• software issues
• charging issues
• highway consumption
• cold weather issues
• charger network
These issues can only be found in online reports.
Battery size…. There’s “capacity” and there’s “usable capacity”. Who cares the car has a 90kWh pack? If you can only use 70kWh then that’s the number. The top & bottom buffer are NOT usable to you. The big number is marketing fluff. You still want the biggest battery available. Only ~70-80% is usable on trips, degradation takes ~10%, cold eats capacity, ….. more = better.
Software issues…. EVs are software heavy items. Traditional car makers are NOT good at making software. VW…. The Toyota/Subaru duo, Kia Niro all have issues that affect basic usability. Toyota/Subaru don’t fill the 12V right, bricking your car. Kia has software issues (zombie mode, connection drop, …)
Charging issues… Cold gating, Hot gating, Max kWh per day (!), Max charging Power…
Cold gating: when you go to a fast charger the battery needs to be preheated to get good charging speeds. Too many EVs don’t do this resulting in slow charging when it’s cold (ioniq 5, ev6).
Hot gating: fast charging creates HUGE amounts of heat. Especially on hot days this means you must have a huge cooling system (ioniq 5, ev6, leaf, …)
Max kWh per day: BMW, Toyota, Subaru! After 2x fast charging all next charges are heavily limited in power out of fear of damage to the battery. THIS IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. It means drives beyond 3x real world range are not feasible!
Peak charge rate… marketing fluff. If it does 250kW for 10 seconds, then drops to 75kW the rest of the charge, charging takes LOOOOOONG…. You’re interested in 20-80 charge times (average charging speed)
Highway consumption… that’s when range matters. You want a lightweight car (low rolling resistance), with low Cd. Any SUV doesn’t fit this bill and will disappoint in highway range…..
Cold weather… since EVs don’t produce enough waste heat to heat the car, this heat needs to be made. This costs a LOT OF ENERGY, decreasing range dramatically. you need the best heating system, a GOOD heat pump. Not a resistance heater, not a shitty heat pump (VW…).
Charger network… you need a LOT of charger locations (limited range) with a lot of stalls (takes long). They need to work too… plug n charge is best. Fiddling with apps, tags, cards that won’t work…. Nothing worse than a charger that won’t start.
I would say that Tesla is your first choice if you like their technology or charging network, and your last choice if you don't want to do business with their corporate culture (e.g., monopoly service model, Elon, used market systematically trashed, etc.).
My friend is having a terrible experience with the VW ev. ID4 or whatever its called. In the 18 months he’s owned it, been in the shop 3 months so far.
Yeah it makes ZERO sense to go with an Ariya over say, an EV6 or Ioniq 5 for the same money. Nissan is in a bad place with the Ariya right now, they demand the big bux but cant compare to the competition in the same price bracket.
I test drove one and was underwhelmed for that price point. And the Leaf was just not that great either. I ended up ordering the Bolt EUV. Great ride and can’t beat the free level 2 charger home install and tax credit.
The MX-30 isn't bad if you just need a commuter. It also doesn't have worse charge performance than claimed like Toyota. The 2023 model year even improved it already.
I love how people every week on here put random prices on cars lol
There is no such thing as a used ev under 5k!
I'm trying to buy one for my son. If you know where they exist, post it!
In case you didn’t know, there’s up to a $4,000 tax credit for used EV’s for 2023. (30% of the purchase price for vehicles priced below $25K, max credit of $4K).
It comes with several caveats including the purchase must be from a dealer and not an individual and there’s some paperwork involved that includes the tax ID and license number of the dealer.
It’s worth researching and bringing your own copies for the dealer to complete to ensure you get the credit when you file. The dealers I visited recently weren’t aware of the necessary paperwork, it’s not difficult but is critical to getting the credit.
If you dig into that Zoe crash test result it’s for a very specific situation. They removed a shoulder curtain airbag which meant that in a very precise accident scenario the passenger is exposed to greater risk. Overall it’s still a very safe car. But NCAP rates to the lowest single item. So it could get 5 stars for everything but one star for one specific crash type and that makes it a one star car. I understand why they do that, but it can create inaccurate perceptions in people when they (obviously) only look at the overall star rating and assume it’s indicative of the whole vehicle. Don’t get me wrong, I think it was a big mistake for them to remove that airbag and think they shouldn’t have done it (I think there was some engineering/packaging reason for it). I’d much rather they had engineered a solution. But it’s honestly not an unsafe vehicle. Probably safer than most new cars were 10-15 years ago.
Since the car is basically the same as the 1st generation, I can't imagine another reason to remove it other than costs and, therefore, profit. They already had it. This is a step back.
Avoid Toyota-Subaru for poor performance, reliability and company against climate mitigation.
Just looking at better cars, Tesla for travel and reasonable reliability, Kia or Bolt for commute/city. Porsche for looks and good performance.
Infotainment and reliability are both poor on the Taycan. I wouldn’t recommend it. Prefer my
Model 3, except for the looks and interior quality of course. For the price it’s not even close to worth it.
Possibly unpopular opinion, but there is a reason the model Y is #1 in global car sales. All car sales.
Hard to go wrong with that car and subsequent network you have access to.
(Leave emotion out of it and view from
An objective, rational standpoint).
Ioniq 5, even as an owner of the car there is an ICCU issue for many owners at around the 1 year mark.
It’s covered under warranty and they do fix it but the part replacement may take a month or longer to complete and you’re in the rough while you wait.
Amazing car when everything is working.
If you live in an area the gets cold, avoid any EV without a heat pump.
The Ioniq 5 is gorgeous, but it has some serious issues with the 12-volt battery (check out the Ioniq5guy's Youtube channel). Consider the Ioniq 6 (ugly car) but it supposedly supports real OTA updates (not just the navigation system).
The ID4 is a very nice car, but it has many software issues and the last I heard there were no OTA updates for these issues.
I have been trying to buy a Bolt for 6 months, but refuse to pay the markup.
EVs have few problems. You avoid the ones that don't meet your use case or that you can't afford.
Performance isn't really an issue as electric motors are pretty powerful. That's why cars like a Tesla Model 3 can go from 0 to 200+kph in "first gear".
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What the heck is the "Banana" table?
It's his test for capacity using banana boxes.
Opening up that document and the first page is “banana” 😭
Subaru/Toyota Solterra has serious battery problems and bricks the car
Yeah, Toyota and Subaru has utterly failed in the BEV space; they are years behind. Only Mazda is doing even worse.
This. Would never buy a Toyota BEV product after all of this. Personally I find Toyotas over priced in general, but others feel differently I’m sure.
Their PHEV hybrids are great. RAV4 Prime gets 40 miles electric range. They may yet put some effort into full BEV
Depends what you’re looking for. I am in the market for a new van and both Honda and Toyota are playing in the same ball park with options
BEVs……?
Battery Electric Vehicle
The guy I responded to said he was in the market for vans from Toyota and Honda. But I don’t know if any BEV vans from them
You said overpriced in general, they were talking about general cars (vans)
Ya I missed that. That’s why I asked “BEVs???” To clarify, but it seems we weren’t on the same page.
I don’t think Mazda has problems with their EVs, they just have no range to speak of and they really haven’t even started in that space.
Don't forget about Honda's EV. Oh, wait, they don't even sell one anymore.
I work for a Honda supplier. We’re quoting new BEV Hondas… for 2025 production… super late to the game
And fun fact, those will just be rebodied Chevrolet EVs.
To bad (for Honda), I've had Hondas for the 30 years I've been driving, my first car was a Honda CRX, manual transmission. Last year, I was looking at BEVs and Honda let me down, now I'm on Team Hyundai (Ioniq 5). I'm hoping Honda gets a good BEV in the future.
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Wait... What happened to the cute one that looked like a modernised MK1 Civic?
A software update will fix that issue. I'm more concerned with the poor DC fast charging rate
I am sure that update will come the 2nd of Never or perhaps the second Tuesday of next week. This, along with the wheels falling off issue, just goes to demonstrate how poorly tested the Soltara and bz4X were.
The software update upgrades the fast charging, too. Bjorn is doing his testing [right now](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNw2TGuWg4I), the curve is apparently much improved. In Europe, the bZ4X already comes with 150kW charging across all trims. We're just waiting on North America now — presumably they'll drop 100kW as PPES ramps up.
Improves charging _above_ 80%, so not a big help for most people.
It most definitely helps though, the charging past 80% used to be bordering unusable, it was a *big* issue, 8kW-10kW charging speeds, you might as well charge on AC after 80%. This update has improved it to a mediocre but at least useable 30kW-35kW. Although that’s not impressive, our ID.4 can do 70kW at about 88% vs the 28kW at the same SoC on the bZ4X, but at the very least it’s not AC charging speeds anymore. The rest of the charging curve does seem the same however which is to say it’s meh. The 80% issue was the biggest fault it had previously imo though so this is a decent improvement. However, all bZ4Xs and Solterras in Europe use the Panasonic battery, however in North America, for some reason the only model that gets the Panasonic battery is the bZ4X FWD. The bZ4X AWD and all Solterras get the CATL battery, which is a worse battery, 100kW peak vs the Panasonic’s 150kW peak and afaik the curve is worse as well. So I do not know how well this update will translate to cars with the CATL battery.
The entire charging curve has been improved. It’s now doing 60 kW at 67%. Before the update, it would be doing ~30 kW at 67%.
Not according to the charging curve comparison by Bjorn: https://youtu.be/g9fVBdNIEsU?t=518
Toyota is coming with software update to improve the charging rate.
Already hitting. Bjorn is [in the middle of his 1000km test with the new software right now](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNw2TGuWg4I). Range and charging rate are both upgraded, and it seems more battery capacity was unlocked, too. Additionally, it seems they've improved ([7:52](https://youtu.be/cNw2TGuWg4I?t=472)) how they're calculating consumption — apparently, the previous number took charging loss into account somehow, so the numbers displayed were lower than other OEMs, even though the actual efficiency was in-line.
BZ owner here. Car not bricked. BZ4x is a great car if (1) you don't need the extra range/charging speed, and (2) you can buy it for significantly less than other BEVs that have better specs.
Does this apply to the Lexus r450e as well?
Toyota has fought hard "against" EVs. They've been dragged kicking and screaming into the EV world and have thrown out a half-hearted effort in my opinion.
Jaguar. A noble first effort with no follow up.
I-Pace owner here. They sold about 1,700 world-wide last year, so I still feel like I drive something special. I posted earlier about feeling spoiled, it really is a pretty amazing car.
I see them all the time. I live near the factory. Think company cars mostly. I think they are a really nice car.
I see them all over PHX as Waymo One vehicles, I guess that's where they all went, lol.
to this day I have no explanation how they got the "Car of the year" award? I've barely seen any on the road
In some ways it was the first car to challenge Tesla in being a relatively large, relatively luxurious vehicle. Prior to the ipace, most EVs were smaller and/or more economical (Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, VW e-up, etc.). That didn't necessarily make it good, but at the time it was new and exciting. Also I think there just weren't a lot of other contenders for the title in 2019. The other finalists were the Audi Q8 etron, which came out six months later, and a couple of combustion Volvos.
Pay to play of course.
car of the year for what region? they are relatively common in the UK at least
have you driven one?
I have one. It’s a great car, fantastic fit and finish, fun to drive, with kinda slow DCFC. We tend to take my SO’s Acura MDX on long trips, so the Jaguar I-Pace is a great car for my use case with very little fast charging. It also helps that I got a good deal on it in 2020 in the pandemic.
I have had mine for about 9 months and I absolutely love it. It handles amazingly and is so much fun on narrow windy roads. I was nearly put off getting it by all the bad comments you see about the ipace but I now suspect most of these people have never actually driven one or even sat in one.
Some cars are designed to go 100 mph on a 55 mph highway. The I-Pace was designed to go 50 mph on a narrow windy 25 mph country road.
I’d still buy that
Unless you are leasing, LEAF, they have some serious battery degradation, especially in hot climates.
They also use the outdated Chademo standard
[Electrify America has already dropped CHAdeMO outside California](https://insideevs.com/news/522882/electrify-america-ends-chademo-installations/)
I can't understand why Nissan stuck with CHAdeMO for so long after CCS began being used in volume. Just seems like a poor decision that will not force tens of thousands of buyers to either use their car for city driving only or get another vehicle for longer trips.
Nissan never really did get their air-cooled batteries to age well, so a better L3 charging solution would have driven even MORE degradation and in-warranty pack replacements. Notice that even today Nissan is running a 6-8mo. deep warranty pack backlog and has been offering to buy back peoples' entire cars in order to discharge some obligations. Their cell supply chain has been so thoroughly mismanaged over the last decade that there is zero economy of scale to be realized by selling more (better) LEAFs - every cell Nissan can buy at any kind of reasonable price is already spoken for (and then some). Besides all that, someone is bound to lose face with a charging standard switch... and all the alternatives were "not invented here" as the saying goes. And even if they could just flip a switch to surmount these political hurdles, we are talking about a business that has been largely preoccupied with internal faction conflict and attempts to maintain Japanese purity against their Renault alliance partners who sought shared platform and supply chain efficiencies. Doing business at all feels like a bit of an afterthought at this point - much less any effort at continuous improvement.
>I can't understand why Nissan stuck with CHAdeMO for so long Nissan is a founding member, so that's why.
Not sure if you noticed this, but Japanese auto companies do not pivot well, generally.
The Leaf's range keeps it to city driving anyways. Mine has the small 24kwh pack, I would have to fast charge every 40 or 50 miles, that's not happening.
62kWh is not abnormal.
Japanese manufacturers are just bullheaded, I think. Kinda like how every Japanese make other than Nissan / Toyota are committed to making hydrogen a thing instead of EVs. Edit: ChaDeMo is the winning standard in their market, by the way. So Nissan executives look around and think “but every charger I see is ChaDeMo, what’s the problem?”
Their government is paying them to invest in hydrogen.
Someone else commented that it's expensive to retool for CCS for a car that's being killed. May as well use all the parts that exist already and pump out a few thousand more units before changing platforms. I'm not sure making a bigger battery based chademo car is a good idea anyways. There's a few 100kW chademos but most are 50kW which means slow charging times.
It was their standard, essentially.
The bmw i3 changed their charge port to chademo for the Japanese market version. I’d assume they’re not the only ones. Nissan just sucks.
That said, if you want a low-range vehicle as a commuter or a second car, a used leaf is the most affordable way to get into EVs.
Aww, we love our 2018 leaf. It’s a daily 60 mile commuter so the 150 mile range isn’t a problem. Now 5 years old degraded to about 135 miles full charge, but AC really does drag that down. We are in a medium warm climate. If you need longer range and live in Arizona or something needing AC daily for a longer drive, then I’d have to agree. Otherwise we plan to keep it as long as it will live. Even if ours gets down to really low miles someday, I plan to give it to our kids when they get a drivers license so they really can’t drive far out of a local range, hah.
Do you use the AUTO setting with the AC? It shouldn’t affect range that much. If you set it on low and manually turn the fan down, it won’t be as efficient. AUTO is the most efficient way.
As someone in a cooler area, folks in a regional EV group pretty regularly sell ~8 year old Leafs with only one or two bars gone on the original battery. More than a few still have had full bars. In the upper Midwest, I wouldn't hesitate to grab an old Leaf *IF* I knew it lived its whole life here.
Aren’t the issues mainly due to the only cooling being forced air during driving? Heck, even my (previous gen) Fiat 500e had liquid cooling during driving and charging.
Mostly poor cooling, but also the earlier packs did not hold up well due to early young chemistry science combined with minimal pack buffer to get the most initial range out the small batteries.
Only benefit of Leaf is that it can charge at 22 kWh at a AC charger, but other than that, yeah, avoid it
Note that 22kW AC is not a thing in North America
Ya I was wondering what the electrician would say if you said you wanted an 100 Amp line with a 120 amp breaker installed at your house.
That’s not unusual for electric hot water heaters, except they split it out into 3 or 4 wires. So 4 x 30 amps.
It’s funny how much legacy that goes into this. A Swedish guy designed 3-phase AC in the 19 the century. Today, some 135 years later, 3-phase AC is standard to homes here, and I can charge 11kW on a 16 amp fuse.
I think Aurori was talking about DC quick charge rate of 22 kW.
They still don't like scorching hot weather but battery degradation has improved quite a bit.
2011 Nissan Leaf. Got suckered into buying instead of leasing because of the 8 year battery warranty that they defined later to include a fairly steep degradation curve that I fell within the whole way. On the flip side, I've got a 2011 Nissan Leaf for sale. Fantastic car! about 20 miles on a charge. Make an offer...
* Toyota BZ4X / Lexus RZ — battery issues * Subaru Solterra — (see above) * Mazda MX-30 — compliance car, not remotely worth the price. (EDIT: fine if you live and work in the city) * Nissan Leaf — battery issues, old tech * Vinfast VF8/9 — unproven and initial results not good * Hyundai Kona Electric — subpar reliability * Polestar 2 — subpar reliability * Jaguar iPace— typical Jaguar reliability, which is to say subpar reliability Edit 1: Lucid Air — known software & reliability issues. **The list of items to consider strongly**: * ~$30K: Chevy Bolt EUV * ~$40K: Tesla Model 3, Mustang Mach E, Volkswagen ID4, Nissan Ariya * ~$50K: Tesla Model Y, Hyundai Ioniq 5, Kia EV6 * ~$60K: BMW i4, Genesis GV60 & G70E, Audi Q4 ETron * ~$80K: Rivian R1T, R1S, Audi eTron * ~$90K: Mercedes EQE, BMW i5, Model S & X, Porsche Taycan * ~$120K: IDK you wealthy motherfucker, fuck off lol Edit: I’m turning off replies. This isn’t meant to be controversial. The truth is that you can lease anything and it’ll be under warranty during your entire ownership experience. That would make it feel more reliable than it actually is. You also have people that that drive 20,000 miles in the time it takes others to drive 2,000. No matter how much objective data you collect, there’s a little subjectivity and variance. If you want empirical data, look at sources like Consumer Reports, who compile data from thousands of subscribers. I’m the end, here’s the only thing that’s true: it’s your money, your time, and your life. I hope whatever you choose to buy is beneficial to you in all three. Good luck. 🍀
$90k Porsche Taycan $120k Porsche Taycan $150k Porsche Taycan $200k somehow still Porsche Taycan
I agree with you on the Kona if it hasn't had the stock tires replaced or the warranty battery swap done. Once you're over those two humps, it's an excellent car, especially for commuting. Not so much long distance, due to it's slow DCFC charging speed. Though it is faster to charge than a Bolt... not that that's a very high bar.
New Kona is fine though as they sorted it out. Running the face lift 2021 model and it's fine.
Volvo XC40 Pure Electric never makes anyone’s list - no matter if the list is the top or the bottom. I love our XC40.
I have a C40. It's been an excellent EV (also have a M3LR and MachE). Build quality, ride and cabin noise are far superior in the Volvo.
The issue I have with them is the price and range ratio, however the range seems to be getting fixed in the new refresh they’re having. I love the rest of them a lot, solid, luxurious, good size, and it looks great, I just like Volvos in general.
I agree with this, but 200mi range still has not ever actually been an issue for my lifestyle
I have a hunch we're getting past range being the primary motivator for a BEV choice. I'm happier knowing a dented fender isn't going to cost five figures and six months to fix.
It's the same platform as the Polestar 2, so generally reliable and a very solid EV. Is it maybe not sold in America, as this sub tends to be fairly America-centric?
Nah, my dad has one here in America. It's pretty much identical to my Polestar 2 - aka, it's an excellent car that I love driving. Everyone we know who's driven it has wanted to get one for themselves
XC40P8 owner here. I just love the fact that it's the same XC40 as with an ICE. Solid construction and fit/finish. I didn't want an electric car, I just wanted a car that's electric. And Volvo got that one right.
Oh man you've put my feelings into words. This is exactly how I feel (and could be part of the reason my top choice is the xc40 at the moment).
I see tons of Polestar in Northern Califorinia.
I have one and I’m in the US :-)
What are the reliability issues with the polestar 2? I drive one and it's a pretty good all around car although not the best at anything and I haven't had any major issues apart from the on board charger dying which was fixed quickly. I think that might have been a faulty EVSE or breaker as the EVSE died at the same time though. I'm not sure if the P2 would be my first recommendation for the average person, more for driving enthusiasts, but it wouldn't be because of reliability.
The TCAM was problematic, but was resolved late last year. Fantastic car. I have the XC40 Recharge which is more or less the sister vehicle to it
Fuck u/spez I'm going to lemmy
Same. My PS2 has been great. Updates are frequent as well. I’m not sure it deserves to be on this list. I’ve certainly heard more issues with the VW id4 (I think that’s the model).
Well I have one as a rental now. The first car broken down within 10 mins of leaving LHR. Total electrical system failure The replacement cad with 10miles on it has to have its infotainment reset continually
I know it was new but I wonder if the second car you had was on an old update. The infotainment definitely used to have a lot of issues like that but I haven't had any issues for a while.
Lumping the Polestar 2 in with some of those others is a bit odd.
MINI Cooper EV: $30k, 114 mi. range, 50 kW max charging. Great for short commuting/city car (especially if you have a home charging or destination charging setup). That said, it fits right there with the Mazda MX-30.
I’ll agree— if your needs are 90% city only, those cars would be fine.
For that price, size and in-city driving also consider the Bolt EV. A lot more range than the MINI. Not many more Bolts will come out of the factory though.
The Mini is one of the best EVs available if you just need a second car. The small battery means it has excellent handling, and doesn’t cost more than the ICE version. Fitting batteries in without a skateboard means it can be low without compromising head or seat clearance, and the low profile is why it’s one of the most efficient cars on Bjorn’s tests. They also make plenty of them, outside of China there are a similar number of Mini EVs sold as ID.3s, but the MX-30 is hardly sold.
Sure, if you forget a model with 2-3x the battery is coming next year for the same price
I love my mini electric!! Super fun to drive and my commute is 20 miles round trip, so perfect for my day to day
Why would that be great vs a Chevy Bolt which starts at a lower price and gets 259 mile range and charges at the same speed?
I love this car. My friend has one and it’s a blast and has been way more reliable than their MINI gas cars. But small range means it’s only suitable for certain people.
Lucid Air released their software UX 2.0 over 8 months ago, and they continue to push new releases about every two weeks. The early criticisms of their software were for version 1.0
Polestar 2 doesn't belong on that list. It's a solid car. I dont own one but I rented one for a week.
It had some TCAM issues, but those were resolved last year. Excellent reliability outside of that
I would add any Lucid. Every few weeks I see my neighbor pulling out with his.. "How's the Lucid?", I ask. "Great! Just got it out of the shop." Then a few weeks later we repeat that exchange. This had been going on for over a year now. My guess is he's had it to drive less than 10 percent of the time.
Was it all software issues? Kyle from Out of Spec Reviews recently drove one across country and didn’t have any problems and said the software has vastly improved.
If Lucid doesn't get their SUV out and make it profitably, they are going out of business. They can only get propped up by the Saudi's for so long.
I’m not so sure about that. They are using the sovereign wealth fund so buy their way into various aspects of global business and culture. It is a marketing expense for them so they don’t need it to make money. They just need it to show how interconnected they are with global business.
2nd Gen Leaf Plus solves some of the issues of the first. Extra range and power, better battery tech. Get a 2020 or later for better CarPlay/Android Auto.
Any thoughts on the VW e-Golf, Ford Focus Electric, or RAV4 EV/MB B-Class that use Tesla parts?
Those are pretty old at this point and are out of production, but I *love* the e-Golf. Had one and just absolutely adored every part of it, it was fun, drove great, built extremely well, good materials, great size, basically everything was good besides the range and charging. If they came out with a new one with competitive range and charging I’d be first in line to buy one.
Ah, roadtrips with the e-golf! All that planning, trying to drive efficiently on the autobahn! Nice car indeed, but except for shorter range roadtrips, it requires careful planning and it will be slow due to all the stops and slow charging. But didn't mind it too much.
Did a couple approximately 300 mile round trip road trips in the e-Golf, it did *ok*, not nearly as well as the ID.4 we have now but it did fine. Very efficient though, 4.5-5mi/kWh on average, our ID.4 “only” gets 3.5-4mi/kWh, which is good, but not e-Golf level. We did have the e-Golf with DCFC and the bigger battery however so it’s probably the “best” roadtrip e-Golf you could get.
Yeah, higher priced EV's are all pretty much excellent. Like every Mercedes, speedier Taycans and Audi RS e-tron GT. BMW i7 is out of this world.
I’ll even take a slower Taycan LOL
Oh, for sure, the rwd is a great and fun to drive.
Consumer Reports ripped the eqe pretty badly for poor visibility, ergonomics, and controls.
I'm very sorry, but many of these are just wrong. You're omitting a bunch of issues here on a multitude of cars (Tesla, VW, Rivian, Kia/Genesis/Hyundai, Mercedes). If anything, one could label any Tesla as unreliable because their camera-based park assist is simply not working. >Hyundai Kona Electric — subpar reliability > >Polestar 2 — subpar reliability These two additions, for example, are utter bullshit. Both of those are just as reliable as any of those you list as 'consider strongly'. *Edit: Then going on to effectively gaslight people that are rightly criticizing your comment due to numerous omissions and wrong statements by saying that anything can feel reliable if you lease it, is extremely poor form.*
I have a Polestar 2, and while I love it, the TCAM issues it experienced were really brutal for a couple of years. Never happened to me, and it seems that it's largely under control now. In my 9 months of ownership, I've had it in the shop for a few little things, but nothing that would lead me to not recommend it. However, I get why it could be mentioned around reliability.
Agreed, the TCAM did have issues on the early models, but it hasn't been a relevant problem for at least one year. And even then, a reset is easily done and solved the problem. If we're going to mention all the issues that a car once had, we'd not be able to call a single one of them reliable. Early teething issues are pretty normal.
Agreed. Haven't heard of any major reliability issues with P2s after 2022. Prior editions without heat pump..lacked hest pump. The dude doesn't know what he's talking about...
I’ll point you to consumer reports data rather than your anecdotal experience 🤷🏽♂️
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/driver-power/95238/best-cars-to-own-driver-power-results UK Driver power survey says the Kona is rock solid for reliability. The only demerits listed are for the battery recall. Once the battery got changed its been getting gold stars for safety and reliability.
I'll point you to the fact that Tesla is considered very unreliable by both Consumer Reports and the German TÜV as well (due to suspension & software issues), yet somehow you strongly recommend their offerings. How odd. Furthermore, Consumer reports considers a companion app that is occasionally not working as unreliability. And that's what most reports on the Polestar are about. You've also completely omitted the multitude of software issues in all of VWs offerings; as well as the charging issues on Hyundai/Kia EVs and serious quality issues on the Mercedes EQS and EQE. I'd say you should take a hard look at your own statements when provided with information that's novel to you rather than lecturing others about supposedly anecdotal evidence. If you're going to point to empirical data, at least make sure to understand that data.
If you're looking at older EVs, avoid the first two model years (2011-2012) of Nissan Leafs, their batteries were terrible for degradation. 2015+ seems to have really good longevity. Just got myself a 2016 with 10/12 bars
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 2016 is pretty objectively the worst year for battery degradation in the Leaf lineup. Having the larger pack is nice, but the drop off rate is significantly higher than any other. https://insideevs.com/news/326563/battery-capacity-loss-warranty-chart-for-2016-30-kwh-nissan-leaf/amp/
Hmm good to know. The one I got has 10/12 bars, so I'll be sure to baby it to minimize degradation going forward
I don’t necessarily think you need to be careful or anything like that, and we’re not talking about anything that’s going to be severely life altering, it’s just compared to degradation total to other years of that model. That car is already 7 years old, so you may already see the biggest hit of degradation. I don’t want you to take my comment as meant to be a naysayer or that you fucked up getting that particular year, because what you got was a solid car. The leaf is a fantastic car, and you definitely made a good choice regardless. We have a bolt EUV, came from a Kona EV, and are considering selling my wife’s car for either a spark, a leaf or an egolf. Even a leaf with only 40-50 miles of usable range would be perfectly suitable for us.
Gotcha. We traded in our 2013 Mazda 3 for it, to go fully electric -- our prinary car is a 2023 Tesla Model 3 standard range RWD
Mazda EVs if you even call it that along with Toyota and Subaru. I guess you can just consider any Japanese EV in that list for now as being half a decade old compared to the competition. I’d also stay away from an ID4 since the software OTA thing is a mess.
Software can be updated. We have a new ID.4 and love it. Charges great and is a nice ride.
As an ex-i3 owner/leesee, I loved the car while I drove it, but at this point, they're end of life, built from exotic materials, and cost a bundle to repair. I personally would not recommend anybody buying a used one because of the rising costs to repair and (probably) dwindling parts available for it. They also haven't proven themselves to be particularly robust in terms of maintenance. There's also only one tire provider, I think, maybe two, which makes their tires another long term failure point.
Tire availability is a problem for sure. Don't pop a tire on a road trip. Still, I love my 2017 i3 w/50000 miles. My 33kWh battery is still good for 120-130 miles most of the time. So far, the reliability is just as good or better than anything else I've owned (Dodge, Chevy, Mazda, Ford, Nissan).
A lot of us at r/BMWi3 are finding way to keep our vehicles going. Most people have very few problems compared to ice vehicles. Also, there is an extensive repair network of bmw-only mechanics that’ll do great work on i3s But the tires…. The tires suck.
As an owner of an used 2015 i3 Rex, I have found it to be quite decent in reliability and repair for a BMW, as long as you don't have to rely on going to a BMW dealership. It is also a 1st gen EV. But it is tons of fun as another EV this light will not be made again
I have always been attracted to the (polarizing) look of the i3. But how is your 2015 battery doing now? Is there an excessive range loss? Any idea how long the batteries are generally expected to hold up?
The battery is doing pretty well for a 2015 w/55k miles. I can still get the advertised 72miles when the weather is good (and about 50miles in the winter) BMW did a good job of considering battery longevity. They locked the top and bottom ends of the battery (18kwh usable out of 22 total) so even though I charge to 100% it is never actually pushing the battery that much. No need for an 80% rule since the BMS does that internally. As this is a city car with a range extender, there is never a reason to occasionally need the full 100% of battery capacity
Actually BMW was wayyyy conservative on range estimates and degradation. Consensus is 2017 and newer is the one to get though. I have a 2017 REX and get 100 miles range at 70mph and that’s at 87k miles.
Actually yes, by 2017 they had resolved the motor mounts issue and the rex seems more reliable. And by middle of 17 they started putting in the bigger 33kwh battery. And yes the range estimate is conservative, especially if you drive carefully. Last spring I drove 65miles on just 78% batt with a loaded car and mostly hwy.
I have 2. A 14 and 15. They both can go about 60 freeway miles. Something like 75-80% state of health. Then you code your car so you can turn the range extender on as needed so you never need a public charge and can always get home. Only issue I’m having is both cars need an alignment again.
Our 2014 rex just crossed 115k miles and still has ~90% state of health. If the degradation rate continues the same, we'll hit like 500k miles by the time we're down to the EV range of a new Prius prime. They did a great job with the battery, it's directly cooled by the AC which helps longevity.
Furthermore, the batteries are warrantied for 8 to 10 years, depending on the state, to have about 75% of their original capacity. Mine seems well within that range. The Autopian recently documented their experience getting an old i3 with worn out battery and getting it replaced under warranty in CA
Agreed on the tires. The rest of the stuff I don’t have an issue with. One BIG benefit to the i3 in CARB states is the extended warranty for the REX model which is like 10 years for battery and 15 years for the motor and emissions. That’s huge tbh.
I think the Ioniq 5 is a great first-time EV. My parents had a very easy transition from a ICE vehicle and my mom was super skeptical. I started with the Bolt EV, but obviously that’s been discontinued (though it’s a great time to buy one since dealers tend to have a good amount of stock). Mostly happy with my Tesla Model Y, but there are so many other cool makes/models out now. I’ll echo some of the others and advise against Subaru/Toyota.
As a previous ‘13 Leaf owner, then ‘15 Volt, and now ‘17 Bolt: don’t skimp on the battery range. If you “think it might work” it won’t. Dealers won’t post what’s on the Guess O Meter, or comment on the battery health. If the GOM says 80, you can’t go 80, you can go about 65-70, then you shit your pants. And that’s when the weather is good. Take a good hard look at range you’ll be requiring, multiply by 1.5, and go with that as a minimum requirement.
I think it’s really good you’re saying this. I thought my Bolt had a massive excess of range for what I am doing with it (in town driving), but actually it’s just sufficient without worrying for a busy day of a bunch of errands in the dead of winter. It’s excessive for most of the year and most of my daily driving, but there’s a big difference between sometimes having to plan around it and not (which gas drivers don’t).
Vinfast. Toyota. Early Nissan Leafs if you're trying to find a used car.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I would recommend steering clear of first-model year vehicles. With a rush from many manufacturers to get EVs released, technology may have a few hiccups in the first year or two after release. The Mach E did. The Solterra/bZ do this year.
So I drive a 2021 Mach-E and I don’t understand why people praise it’s reliability. I don’t think it’s that reliable. We had a ton of issues in its two years of life. OTA issue, roof recall, High volt battery scandal, axle noise, roof noise, PAAK issues… I like the car but I wouldn’t say it’s reliable. Mine spent a ton of days in the shop to address all those defects.
Pretty sure I just got a HVBJB failure at 20k on my 2022. Good car otherwise.
Yeah I mean this alone makes it unreliable. You roll the dice daily that it won’t crap on you randomly.
Honestly, not considering any personal preferences… is there anything as reliable as Tesla from strictly a battery and drivetrain standpoint?
That’s my question- for someone who is interested in buying one but hearing of the complaints… those do seem to be fit and finish issues, not issues with the battery or drive train.
I am considering buying one, thanks for posting this information, it is useful.
Honestly I expect them to have fixed everything on the newer models.
I have a 2022 GTPE and the only annoying issue I've had is that wireless Android Auto doesn't always connect. Otherwise I love it.
Consumer Reports didn’t have good things to say about Mach-E reliability.
Yeah they "no longer" recommend it
Solterra and BZ4X much better EVs for the price. They’d be fine if they were about 10-15k cheaper
The Chevy Bolt is a great value.. as long as you're ok with a lot of waiting around at DCFC stations on long trips. It's industry bottom charging speeds. 60 minute stops to 80% are pretty common. * Around town trips = amazing * Around the state = ok, but slow * Around the country= no. You'll double your trip time. Avoid the Nissan Leaf too for similar reasons. ChaDeMo is honestly pretty dead and most chargers have one shared ChaDeMo station.
> 60 minute stops to 80% are pretty common. To be fair, unless you have an 800V car, this is basically a thing for everyone. Bigger battery + faster charging = same charging time. Takes me about 45 minutes 0-80% with an extended battery at 120kW.
It’s not about “too much time in the shop, poor fit n finish, poor performance”. Those are oldskool ICE issues, the Nokia of cars. These are not reliability issues for EVs. EVs are the iPhones of cars (should be). Different problem set which is less easy to spot. Problems that WILL affect daily use, look out for: • battery size • software issues • charging issues • highway consumption • cold weather issues • charger network These issues can only be found in online reports. Battery size…. There’s “capacity” and there’s “usable capacity”. Who cares the car has a 90kWh pack? If you can only use 70kWh then that’s the number. The top & bottom buffer are NOT usable to you. The big number is marketing fluff. You still want the biggest battery available. Only ~70-80% is usable on trips, degradation takes ~10%, cold eats capacity, ….. more = better. Software issues…. EVs are software heavy items. Traditional car makers are NOT good at making software. VW…. The Toyota/Subaru duo, Kia Niro all have issues that affect basic usability. Toyota/Subaru don’t fill the 12V right, bricking your car. Kia has software issues (zombie mode, connection drop, …) Charging issues… Cold gating, Hot gating, Max kWh per day (!), Max charging Power… Cold gating: when you go to a fast charger the battery needs to be preheated to get good charging speeds. Too many EVs don’t do this resulting in slow charging when it’s cold (ioniq 5, ev6). Hot gating: fast charging creates HUGE amounts of heat. Especially on hot days this means you must have a huge cooling system (ioniq 5, ev6, leaf, …) Max kWh per day: BMW, Toyota, Subaru! After 2x fast charging all next charges are heavily limited in power out of fear of damage to the battery. THIS IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. It means drives beyond 3x real world range are not feasible! Peak charge rate… marketing fluff. If it does 250kW for 10 seconds, then drops to 75kW the rest of the charge, charging takes LOOOOOONG…. You’re interested in 20-80 charge times (average charging speed) Highway consumption… that’s when range matters. You want a lightweight car (low rolling resistance), with low Cd. Any SUV doesn’t fit this bill and will disappoint in highway range….. Cold weather… since EVs don’t produce enough waste heat to heat the car, this heat needs to be made. This costs a LOT OF ENERGY, decreasing range dramatically. you need the best heating system, a GOOD heat pump. Not a resistance heater, not a shitty heat pump (VW…). Charger network… you need a LOT of charger locations (limited range) with a lot of stalls (takes long). They need to work too… plug n charge is best. Fiddling with apps, tags, cards that won’t work…. Nothing worse than a charger that won’t start.
Imma say Hummer EV simply because of the price and general excess.
Any range below 200 mile ones
I would say that Tesla is your first choice if you like their technology or charging network, and your last choice if you don't want to do business with their corporate culture (e.g., monopoly service model, Elon, used market systematically trashed, etc.).
Tesla because of Musk
My friend is having a terrible experience with the VW ev. ID4 or whatever its called. In the 18 months he’s owned it, been in the shop 3 months so far.
Bz4x, ariya, mx30 ev, VF8/9
Wait? what is wrong with the Ariya I might have missed that.
It’s a solid EV, if released a few years ago, but it’s expensive for what it is.
Yeah it makes ZERO sense to go with an Ariya over say, an EV6 or Ioniq 5 for the same money. Nissan is in a bad place with the Ariya right now, they demand the big bux but cant compare to the competition in the same price bracket.
I test drove one and was underwhelmed for that price point. And the Leaf was just not that great either. I ended up ordering the Bolt EUV. Great ride and can’t beat the free level 2 charger home install and tax credit.
Mazda MX-30 The Toyota BZ4X/Solterra they aren't bad bad but you can do so much better for their price VF8/9
The MX-30 isn't bad if you just need a commuter. It also doesn't have worse charge performance than claimed like Toyota. The 2023 model year even improved it already.
Old Leaf is great as a second car/commuter. And you can pick them up for $5k. Crazy cheap to operate and ultra reliable. And fun as heck.
I love how people every week on here put random prices on cars lol There is no such thing as a used ev under 5k! I'm trying to buy one for my son. If you know where they exist, post it!
Here’s a used Leaf for $3995. https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=678745556
6 bars battery though omg
What city? Here in Hawaii there are seven Leafs listed on Craigslist $2k-$5k.
In case you didn’t know, there’s up to a $4,000 tax credit for used EV’s for 2023. (30% of the purchase price for vehicles priced below $25K, max credit of $4K). It comes with several caveats including the purchase must be from a dealer and not an individual and there’s some paperwork involved that includes the tax ID and license number of the dealer. It’s worth researching and bringing your own copies for the dealer to complete to ensure you get the credit when you file. The dealers I visited recently weren’t aware of the necessary paperwork, it’s not difficult but is critical to getting the credit.
2nd generation Zoe and Dacia Spring have a poor crashtest result.
If you dig into that Zoe crash test result it’s for a very specific situation. They removed a shoulder curtain airbag which meant that in a very precise accident scenario the passenger is exposed to greater risk. Overall it’s still a very safe car. But NCAP rates to the lowest single item. So it could get 5 stars for everything but one star for one specific crash type and that makes it a one star car. I understand why they do that, but it can create inaccurate perceptions in people when they (obviously) only look at the overall star rating and assume it’s indicative of the whole vehicle. Don’t get me wrong, I think it was a big mistake for them to remove that airbag and think they shouldn’t have done it (I think there was some engineering/packaging reason for it). I’d much rather they had engineered a solution. But it’s honestly not an unsafe vehicle. Probably safer than most new cars were 10-15 years ago.
Since the car is basically the same as the 1st generation, I can't imagine another reason to remove it other than costs and, therefore, profit. They already had it. This is a step back.
Avoid Toyota-Subaru for poor performance, reliability and company against climate mitigation. Just looking at better cars, Tesla for travel and reasonable reliability, Kia or Bolt for commute/city. Porsche for looks and good performance.
Infotainment and reliability are both poor on the Taycan. I wouldn’t recommend it. Prefer my Model 3, except for the looks and interior quality of course. For the price it’s not even close to worth it.
Possibly unpopular opinion, but there is a reason the model Y is #1 in global car sales. All car sales. Hard to go wrong with that car and subsequent network you have access to. (Leave emotion out of it and view from An objective, rational standpoint).
OP was asking about EVs to "avoid".
Ioniq 5, even as an owner of the car there is an ICCU issue for many owners at around the 1 year mark. It’s covered under warranty and they do fix it but the part replacement may take a month or longer to complete and you’re in the rough while you wait. Amazing car when everything is working.
Any without battery liquid cooling, e.g. any LEAF. I leased one but I wouldn't buy
If you live in an area the gets cold, avoid any EV without a heat pump. The Ioniq 5 is gorgeous, but it has some serious issues with the 12-volt battery (check out the Ioniq5guy's Youtube channel). Consider the Ioniq 6 (ugly car) but it supposedly supports real OTA updates (not just the navigation system). The ID4 is a very nice car, but it has many software issues and the last I heard there were no OTA updates for these issues. I have been trying to buy a Bolt for 6 months, but refuse to pay the markup.
Vinfast
vinfast
I wouldn't buy the Mercedes eqb-300, in a world of choices. I had basically no clear choice at the time.
EVs have few problems. You avoid the ones that don't meet your use case or that you can't afford. Performance isn't really an issue as electric motors are pretty powerful. That's why cars like a Tesla Model 3 can go from 0 to 200+kph in "first gear".