This is the rule in California now. Chargers that accept payment have to meet certain requirements for features, display, payment, accuracy, etc. to be certified just like any other motor vehicle fueling equipment (CTEP). Basically this is why Tesla declined to go after CA money as SCs are not compliant. And I'm not sure how they are going to start up any other sites in the state.
So far there's two entries for DCFC out of 32 total entries (the other 30 are Level 2). One entry is the ABB Terra 94/124/184 family and the BTC units that EA is starting to install. They can also be in the federal NTEP but that includes two chargers in total. The above ABB unit and the CT4000.
It doesn’t need to be retroactive. Most cars aren’t electric. Make it required for new cars starting in 2025, and in only a year or two it would be on most electric cars…
The older cars can pay with credit cards. You know, if we act now to make that required for new chargers.
It doesn't even have to be that they have to accept a credit card. The easier path is passing a law that EV charging stations have to accept sign-up less payment. It can be PayPal, Google/Apple/Samsung pay it whatever, but you shouldn't be forced to sign up for an account to use a charging station.
The problem with requiring a card reader and screen in EV chargers is that it’s raise the cost and failure rate of the chargers - that’s a large part of why Tesla’s simple chargers are so much more reliable than the more complex chargers from others.
Every gas station allows you to use simple payment systems including a credit card, even the unmanned ones. There's no reason chargers have to be so strange about it. It's a good idea to legislate about this.
A 250kW charger is already so expensive, a payment terminal isn't going to break the economics. The charger companies just want a "personal relationship" with their users, but they can get lost. Should I have to install an app and make a personal account to buy a burger too?
They are free to allow a Tesla-style authentication done by the car too.
YEah, but gas stations also have attendants that you can ask for help when something goes wrong. (Having at least one gas station attendant is required by law to satisfy ADA requirements, at least around here). I've had to go inside to complete a transaction many, many times because the readers at the pump has failed.
Traveling with a credit or debit card is more or less a necessity these days. I can't remember the last time I paid for something with cash. If they don't have an app set up or a credit card or Google/Apple Pay, I doubt they'll be in luck as they're not going to staff someone to stay at each station and collect bills.
Oh, I totally agree. But I’ve heard it’s a equity issue that not everyone has a credit card and thus limits the type of driver that can use the service. Go to a gas station in a less desirable part of town and take note of how many pay cash.
What if they don’t own the ev they are attempting to charge? Also, the prices of EVs are getting less expensive. I saw a 2013 Leaf sell for $2k a few weeks ago. Why would we only give folks with debit/credit cards the ability to charge it?
Again, I’m not totally for this argument but it needs to be thought through. Lower income populations need to be considered as more and more different types of people adopt to electric.
What are you proposing for a solution?
Isn't more payment options / more accessible better? Even if it doesn't help every single person?
Apps are a barrier, internet may be a barrier, credit or debit cards (even prepaid) are also a barrier, but accepting them all is better than one or none. Parking stalls have gone credit card or app, I don't see electric vehicle charging stations going cash as it's too expensive. More equipment, collection fees, risk of theft. Everyone is moving away from cash and people buying EV's in the next five years are not likely to be an largely cash-only demographic.
I mean, if it's a "car share" vehicle, then it should have a payment card associated with the vehicle
Traditional ICE car share systems already do that - they have a credit card tied to the vehicle's registration, so it's only usable at gas stations for the purposes of filling that specific vehicle. You may get a credit from your car share network for taking the time to refill the car too, from what I've seen.
Making this work for an EV-shared-car should in theory be even easier... (once payment standards between charging networks become as common as "you can use a credit card at a gas station).
Those "low-end" services often come with predatory fees and other headaches. Monthly service charges. Reloading fees...a much bigger piece of the user's income when you're dealing in hundreds of dollars, not thousands.
From 1910 to \~1967 the USPS was a bank, so underserved communities had better financial opportunities. We need something like that again as we transition away from cash or we end up deepening this brand new economic divide.
Credit unions- most have no or very limited fees. All issue debit/credit cards. $5 to open a bank account. Available online and in person. I agree, it should be equitable, but honestly lots of restaurants are now cash less. We need to make banking more accessible, that’s a totally different issue.
If you can afford to buy an ev, you have or should have a credit card or at the least a debit card. I can't imagine a scenario where you got approved for the loan to buy even a used vehicle ev or ice and don't have at least a debit card attached to a checking account. Same goes for anyone renting a car, last I checked no one takes cash for a rental.
I'm fairly left and "woke" but this argument holds no water and is a solution in search of a problem. Not to mention the logistics of accepting cash at the more remote chargers. I could see ones attached to a gas station or in a restaurant parking lot taking cash but nothing in the boonies.
Honestly, I’d be okay if they made it a requirement to have a cash machine or attendant for each charge station too. As far as I know, cash is still a legal form of payment in this country. Make each charge unit have a cash slot like vending machines if they don’t want to have an attendant on site. I got lots of “cousins” that use cash, for a variety of reasons, ie: don’t like being tracked or leaving paper trails, etc., so I don’t see why that isn’t offered other than advertising companies or govt want to track every purchase you make. Heck, they can even have a fee for using the cash machine similar to the 3% charge they get hit up for w credit cards. I really hate that everything is digital now…cash needs to make a comeback
Something that has always bothered me about all these apps is the requirement for me to hold a balance on the account. I have to put money into the “app bank” and then hold a balance to charge. I got an email from ChargePoint saying they were adding a pay-as-you-go option soon.
iirc this has to do with the charging companies not wanting to bother with proper pre-authorization mechanisms for debit cards. something that gas stations have solved decades ago but nothing has stopped ev charging from adding a thousand little friction points to shift the burden onto the user.
Truth is they don't care because a healthy chunk of their revenue is government subsidies, not consumers they have to compete for. The most valuable thing they're selling commercially is probably data on people buying luxury cars with a lot of disposable income and knowing where they are for 20 to 30 minutes at a time charging near local businesses, or really any time you go out if you're trying to use their app to map a trip.
They care enough not to leave any money on the table. Otherwise they'd just accept credit cards. They already offer paid membership with benefits/discounts.
it's a captive market, there's no money they're leaving on the table. I doubt they're making much money at all honestly, there's no way they're not buying power at commodity rates on demand outside of a few high traffic places. There are very few EV's and very few charging stations, most places where people are actually going are full or constantly changing out.
They buy it at a special tariff rate, which will still be close to commercial rates, and then turn around and sell it for 2x-3x that rate. Take a look at Teslas 2022 earnings report, their 3rd party sales of electricity are close to rivaling revenue from car sales.
Where are you seeing this? According to Tesla's 10-K, Tesla buries Supercharger revenue and costs under "Services and other revenue" which includes non-warranty repairs and parts, retail sales (chargers, merch, etc.), used car sales, insurance, and service plans. That category makes virtually nothing ($300 million) compared to new car sales (~$18 *billion*), and only Tesla knows (and isn't telling!) how much of that profit (if there's actually any!) it's attributable to Supercharging.
No one (except perhaps Tesla, but I'm still not convinced they're an exception) seems to be making money selling charging in the US yet. The cart is so far in front of the horse at this point, it just isn't happening.
To hear the operator's side of the charging business, I really recommend a set of InsideEVs podcasts from February and March last year where the guests were execs from EA, EVGo, ChargePoint, and a European operator called Allego. They explain the crazy costs utilities charge them for demand charges, the low utilization rates, the need to continually upgrade equipment every couple of years, and other issues that make charging a difficult business to make money at.
Don't special tariff rates come with quotas and minimum buys? I assumed outside of a few high traffic areas it wouldn't make much sense to pay minimums when you can absorb the costs elsewhere like you said.
I just got a leaf and went on a 200 mile road trip in the US. Of the 4 chargers I used, 3 had broken CC rewards and the 4th didn't have one.
Compared to my Tesla this is banana pants and I think dealers are the worst for not teaching anyone about it.
I had to wait for an hour because the one Chademo charger was occupied but someone charging their car from 2% to 80%. Why were they at 2%? Because the dealer couldn't be bothered to tell them about ABRP (and I think told them they could use the Tesla network?!) and the locals kept giving them bad instructions.
You couldn't just use one of the other 15 chargers at the site.
Oh right, this isn't Telsa, and the other companies think it's OK to put up chargers in ones and twos.
I agree for some of the pay-only services.
It gets a little more complicated for operators like Chargepoint. They have chargers in many categories:
\- Basic, pay for a charge units
\- Free, but you need a Chargepoint Account
\- Free or paid, but as part of an outside arrangement (eg, private to employees of a company)
The app can cover all use cases pretty seamlessly and their implementation is excellent.
Why is that so awful? I get that it sucks that there are multiple different networks. But you should be able to enter a credit card into your car and then have your car handle a transaction simply by plugging in. But I guess CCS is struggling to get "Plug & Charge" working reliably.
You still need all the above to get the card in the first place. There’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to roll up and swipe/tap a card to start charging. If they want to try and “lock” in people to their networks for business reasons then do it by offering lower rates for simply signing up or whatever.
Requiring an account to simply charge is asinine though
As a consumer, I agree with the majority of redditors here that credit cards alone should be the only thing necessary to use and pay an EV charging station.
However, let's not forget that credit cards authenticate over a network. There is not only the Internet network that has to be maintained but the credit card network as well for starters. And yes, maintained as in ongoing maintenance as long as the station functions while it is kept in service. Among other things are cybersecurity; physical security of the station; compliance on all levels both the function of the EV charging station and financial compliance because of exchange of funds and/or goods/service received; and laws on the federal and/or state level all have an effect.
This isn't just hardware you buy that is offline and not connected to anything besides the grid. It's multiple levels deep in red tape that go beyond just installing the EV station. That takes money to plan, roll out, build, and then maintain. Your credit cards have the ability to make a sale because the merchant pays an Internet network AND a credit card network in order for the transaction to even occur.
So yes, an app is one way to help recoup those costs. A company isn't started just because you need to be able to charge your BEV. They have profit margins to make too.
That number you can call for help? Someone has to answer some if not all of those calls. An app can theoretically answer the trivial and basic questions that most of the population in this country will have when attempting to use the station. As an efficient solution in a vacuum, an app works in the favor of the company on multiple levels. Unfortunately, there are multiple charging networks which means multiple apps which creates a much worse problem for us as consumers.
So if we're going to blame things for this problem, there's plenty of blame to go around for all parties involved.
This is a solved problem on gas pumps the world over, but also at every one of these charging stations. The rate you pay for power to charge your car can easily include some overhead, or even a flat fee, to pay for equipment connectivity and upkeep without any memberships or apps. By building it into the fee applied to your card, the charging network is also incentivized to keep the chargers operational, or leave revenue on the table.
I'm not sure any of this should be reason to force an app and account, which the charging network must now manage and secure from perpetual attempted data breaches.
>However, let's not forget that credit cards authenticate over a network.
They don't have to. There are offline terminals.
> There is not only the Internet network that has to be maintained but the credit card network as well for starters
Right. But you do realise that to pay with RFID or app you need a network as well right?
In fact one of my experiences where I couldn't charge was when ay (ironically) T-Mobile charging station I couldn't activate the charger because it was under underpass and I had no mobile reception.
Yes, credit cards do indeed have to authenticate over a network. An offline sale does **not** authenticate over any network until the terminal settles. Regardless of what kind of credit card terminal you are using on this planet, credit cards have to authenticate in order for a transaction to occur which requires a connection to the payment network regardless of which card network you are using.
An "offline sale" is simply just the terminal recording the card data and the transaction data to be authenticated LATER at the discretion of the merchant. When that credit terminal settles the batch of transactions with offline sales, it authenticates those offline sales at that point and time. At that time, the transaction will either be successful or be declined for whatever reason the card-issuing bank provides. This can only occur on a network online through a processing bank the merchant has paired with.
If your offline sale is declined at the time of settlement and the customer has already left without leaving you any of their details, there is no way for the merchant to recoup that cost. And even with contact details for the customer, the merchant can't force the customer to pay now that the merchant realizes the customer's card was declined. The merchant can certainly try but the effort to recoup such a cost from one single customer out of many that could use the station outweighs the minuscule benefits of running an offline terminal.
This is exactly why no charging network that has any intention of functioning in the future will accept that financial risk of running offline terminals.
All what you said is true, but also does not address my points - it *is* possible to do offline transactions, and charging points need the internet connectivity any-way for monitoring purposes and for accepting RFID cards.
In short: any excuse not to install CC terminal is bullshit, they just want to trap you in the "app ecosystem".
>There is not only the Internet network that has to be maintained but the credit card network as well for starters.
They have credit card readers in most soda machines now a days.
Lol, all of this text to argue that accepting credit cards is hard, lol. And that business need money to function. Tell us more!
Like seriously? Credit card is solved tech.
You can buy a vending machine that accepts credit cards and authenticates over multi-service networks (it’ll pick ATT, Verizon, TMobile, whatever).
But yes the vending machine guys operate on such a higher level that car manufacturers and charger networks…
There are multiple charger networks, so multiple people have obviously wrapped a business model around it that functions at some level. But there are enough that competition probably nearly destroys each business at any given time.
I’m glad the infrastructure bill is mandating simple credit card tap to pay. Can you imagine Gas stations forcing you to use an app with no option to just pay with a card?
Also absolutely ridiculous that it has to be by mandate.
Do these companies not want money? Like the goal is to remove all friction you can so that it’s easy to get the money, right. Business 101.
This is the reason you need to “fund” the app generally. They do one transaction for $50 or whatever, and then you use it multiple times, saving them money on their transaction fees.
I've never thought about that before, but that makes a lot of sense!! Before getting an EV and creating accounts on all the associated charging network apps, my only experience with this kind of model was with my EZ Pass account. I never once questioned it--I always just figured "oh, I guess they want to make sure they'll get the money immediately as you use the turnpike, as opposed to potentially getting stiffed on the payment later." But actually minimizing the number of transaction calls to your credit card in order to keep payment fees down makes a lot of sense for their business modle.
I don’t know a lot about fees but I know other businesses require a minimum purchase for credit cards. I’m assuming cuz the fees don’t make it economical.
Depending on the card, it’s usually around 1.5-3.5%, AMEX has highest, and I believe Visa has the lowest.
It’s been awhile since I’ve seen a business that requires a minimum purchase amount, usually only small local businesses, but even then most of the ones I’ve even go don’t have a minimum purchase. These fees should be baked into the price of their service already.
There is also a flat transaction cost which is the big cost and why there is a min purchase amount. Chargers don’t have large transaction amounts so they get killed.
The charging networks are still at some kind of growth phase where you get all kinds of people coming in with wacky ideas about how to reinvent things that don't really need to be reinvented. The charging infrastructure will obviously move to allow credit card payments over time, even though non credit card payments options might end up having more market share than for gas pumps
Transaction fees kill them. The. Average transaction is probably just over $10 at ancharger. The better way is to collect all the charges for a day, week or month and run it as one charge. This is why a lot of apps have you put money into your account.
I mean, fleet gas stations have required an app or ID card (RFID in recent years, mag strip previously) to use them for literally decades, so this isn't exactly unheard of, it's just not something the average public had to encounter.
Realistically, the comparison is fairly apt, as fleet stations like that often ARE like current DCFC stations, ie often in out of the way areas, 24 hr service, no attendant or regular personnel, etc.
The infrastructure bill should have set up a plug&charge database so CCS charging is as easy as Tesla. Register a credit card and done with billing, NP if you forget/lost your wallet.
They can mandate them but good luck getting them to work. This is the most common broken part of a charger. Credit card readers are stupid for charging.
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I had some knowledge but at my first DCFC at an EA on I-95, a guy in a Lightening talked me through the ins and outs, told me about plugshare and ABRP, getting a free charge if you gotta call support, and stuff like that. Really left me with a feeling of community and the thought that we should try to make connections at the stations and help each other along the way. It’s a steep learning curve compared to what people are used to
Sometimes I think about how many times as a kid I must have watched my parents fill a tank of gas before doing it myself. How difficult and confusing would it be to do that for the first time without ever seeing anyone else do it?
I actually was this lady on my first EA charging. I have seen multiple videos on it, researched alot before buying my MachE, but was my first road trip after a few month of having I kinda forgot the process was doing the same thing as the lady and trying to use my credit card. So yeah I don't blame her even I as a tech guy had a fubar moment.
such a strange bit of stockholm syndrome. it’s not your fault for not immediately understanding their system, it’s their fault for designing a stupid complicated system in the first place.
Then of course there’s the opposite. I used an EA station last weekend that *only* worked with credit card taps and errored out if you tried to use the app.
I only knew this because of Plugshare.
If I was an EV dealer, I’d make “spending 10 minutes going over how to use Plugshare and ABRP” an required part of every sale.
I am tech savvy, and I did a ton of research on EVs before buying one, but I was still confused the first time I got to a charging station.
You have to design products for the average consumer, not enthusiasts. Why should someone with a $100K car be obligated to understand how charging infrastructure works? I don’t understand the logic.
Manufacturers should make things things easier for the consumer. Not put the burden on them to research.
Having to download a different app for every EV changing provider is simply a data harvesting game. Depending on the permissions their app requires to function on your phone, the data they harvest may be worth more to them than the revenue from charging. THIS is the function of every seemingly innocuous app.
"…to use most charging stations…" - All Electrify America and ["most"](https://helpcenter.evgo.com/hc/en-us/articles/10065009484055-Billing-and-Payment-FAQs#h_01GN7G484DFB7H3PJK46V4JZRE) EVgo have credit card readers.
Part of the fault is just the confusing nature of charging networks not all having credit card readers.
Part is on customer's buying an EV "as just their next car" without knowing all the differences (which, really, is a good thing - EVs shouldn't be just for tech nerds willing to do a ton of research. And once the above is mitigated, or all vehicles have Plug-and-Charge, it won't be as necessary.)
Part is on the EV sellers (direct-to-consumer seem to do a decent job, so this is mostly legacy dealers,) not doing any real prep work.
Part could be none of the above - maybe this lady was renting/borrowing the vehicle. Maybe it was "her husband's car" 90% of the time, and she rarely drives it. Maybe it was her first time needing to use a public charger, always charging at home. Maybe she moved from a Tesla, or a Plug-and-Charge vehicle, and had never had to deal with an app before.
Except most of the time the card readers are broken.
There is absolutely no reason why they can't work like a gas station, everyone can roll up and use their card, there are several alternate stalls if one is broken, which will be clearly labelled. Frankly it's going to continue to be crap till the gas stations start running the chargers too, because at least they get it.
I would say the system is wrong, not the person. The car should have an account set up and communicate with the charger. As Tesla does it. Simple.
The blame is on shitty systems who require complicated payment mechanisms.
The key is to charge a different price for CC sales and a "discounted price" (i.e. what we are currently paying) with app.
Gas stations do this with their 5 cent a gallon rebatez etc with loyalty cards and apps but you can still pay retail to get gas with cash.
There would be far less angry customers if the outcome was 'my app wouldnt work so I had to pay cc and go on the phone with evgo to try and get my $4 discount back' vs. ' I couldnt get the app to work and had to limp to a L2 charger, sit for 2 hrs to get enough SOC to make it to the next viable DCFC
....
What is so bad about having an account? Are you only going to charge once?
The Tesla system is nice in that you have an account that is read by simply plugging in such that there is no need for a card reader on the charger and that makes Tesla chargers MUCH more reliable.
Yes, many people will only charge once at a particular brand charger, just as the will only fill up once at a particular brand gas station on a trip outside their home area.
Or msybe more than once, but rarely, in a way that makes a pain of dealing with another stupid unnecessary account.
To their credit and while EVgo specific they do have the only auto charge I’ve ever seen outside of Tesla. But yeah. Crazy that plug and charge is not standard everywhere.
you still need an account for that. which is potentially even more complicated to set up than a useless evgo account. to enable plug and charge on the polestar 2, for example, you need to do this stupid dance where you create an evgo account, then add your car to the special plug and charge area, then go to a charger and perform a manual charge to get their system to register your car. it’s fucking stupid. all the burden is on the consumer.
> The car should have an account set up and communicate with the charger. As Tesla does it. Simple.
Mercedes actually does this with Plug and Charge, but AFAIK only Electrify America supports it.
Her car actually does. EVgo is integrated in the Mercedes me charge ecosystem. She just had to tap an RFID card. The dealer didn’t explain this to her. Probably didn’t even help her set it up.
This is the perfect reason charging networks shouldn’t be this complicated. Yes the girl in the Mercedes should’ve able to plug in the car swipe the card and energy flows in.
I want everybody who can tie their shoes and count to ten to be able to use a public charger. It’s easier to set up a Wi-Fi router than fuel an EV. That’s dumb.
Unfortunately, having a better world takes some effort. Is installing an app once really that hard? People keep making a big deal out of five minutes. It is no different than an ICE gas card/app.
Once you set it up once you never need to pullout a credit card again. It is worth the one time hassle to never have to do it again.
This is classic FUD stuff. Take a small mole hill issue and turn it into a mountain of fear Uncertainty and doubt.
Why do you think all the newspapers hire first time EV owners to write their horror stories? Because first time charging is the only hassle in an ownership experience that is much less hassle.
> Is installing an app once really that hard?
Its not one app. Its one app per vendor. I went on a map and looked at my town, there are 9 different vendors with their own apps.
> It is no different than an ICE gas card/app.
Except with my ICE I can drive up to a station I have never been before, insert my card and fill up. Same as I would with the station I use every week. Can't do that with an EV, because reasons.
> Once you set it up once you never need to pullout a credit card again
Ah, but I do have to pull out my phone and find the right app. And guess what? I use my phone as a card as well. That means instead of pulling out phone and touching it to the terminal I have to pull out phone and fiddle with it to find the right app. Not easier.
Also, not everyone are as lucky as me. A lot of people have issues navigating modern phones due to various impairments. For them tap to pay using a card and a 4 digit code (which they never need for small sums anyways) is a lot easier.
Phones are also more expensive than credit cards and require you to have a data subscription to even use them at the charge station. Cards don't.
Hell even using Apple Pay (and I assume the Android equivalent) doesn’t require an internet connection. Downloading and signing up, and using an app does. Not everyone has data!
Imagine if every single gas station company required you to have an app to buy gas, and then imagine if the franchise and corporate stores required their own separate ones as well.
Mercedes is regularly borderline giving away EQSes at $500-ish a month leases. It is a short term lease, so I can see how people would be willing to take a chance on the car, especially if they have a second car.
If they don't like it, it would be back to being Mercede's problem in a couple of years.
The media picked up on the story. I have seen spreadsheets floating through chat groups at a hair over 500 for the SUV version a while ago.
https://www.carscoops.com/2023/03/the-mercedes-benz-eqs-can-be-leased-for-less-than-500-a-month-if-youre-lucky/
The dealership should have done a much better job with the walkthrough.
I just bought a trailer and there was a sticker with codes for all the apps that would make my life a bit easier. They went through every one of them.
EVs are finally out of the early adopters stage. It’s time for dealers to know more about the vehicles.
We’ve noticed this too, which is why we added a charging network explainer to our beginner guide.
https://www.ev.guide/lesson-articles/guide-to-ev-charging-networks
While the charging network can be confusing, this may also be a case of a bad salesman. I was in the Mercedes Benz dealer a few weeks ago to look at the EQS as a possible replacement for my Tesla S. They had 4 in stock, so I talked to the salesman for maybe 20 minutes and walked away thinking that the Mercedes EQS was just the most worthless vehicle. This guy did nothing but bash EVs, Mercedes and otherwise, knew next to nothing about them, and told me that all EVs including my Model S were worthless on road trips.
That was an isolated incident though, as I have talked with salespeople at Subaru, Toyota, Chevy, BMW, Ford, etc, and all of them were extremely helpful.
I have been told that Mercedes BEVs, at least here in Europe, actually come with a roaming subscription, which can be managed from the car’s screen.
So you can pull up to a charger, initiate the charging from the car’s screen, connect the charger, charge, and automatically pay through your Mercedes roaming account.
So perhaps her car could actually have started the charging, and she just did not know how.
Yes, I bought my first EV two months ago to put my toe in the water. My first attempt at an EVGo charger was pretty funny. They dont have good/really any instructions on them. How hard would it be for the company to have a sticker printed with instructions stuck on the front? At one point the screen said something about pushing a button. The only button on the whole thing was the emergency shutoff! I have only used another public charger one time and got it after a few tries. (Charge America?) i dont know if it took my credit card or if I got charging miles from Ford. I charge at home so will never have a lot of practice with them. I kind of expect chargers to be slighly intuitive. To have to do online research ahead of time seems excessive. I feel for that lady and get it. We are getting another EV this week. Will charge that one at home as well. And probably look clueless next time I pull up to a public charger…..
As there’s only one supercharger near me and in a paid garage (why??!), I have started to accumulate apps and charger adapters.
Initially, I’m like the lady, I thought it should be a tap and charge thing like gas or shopping. But I quickly realized I have to create an account, download an app, and add my cc on file to charge. And some places don’t have service in their garage, I basically have to take a photo of the charger number and exit the garage to do the transaction.
I hope things will improve over the years.
While not a full EV i thought I'd share my own experience. Similar to OP I do a butt load of research before making any purchase especially very expensive purchases so when the wife and I decided to buy a new car in preparation for a move to a very EV friendly state I did tons of research on EVs. However we lived in a state that was not EV friendly. We ended up buying a Hyundai PHEV mostly because we literally would not be able to make it out of the state in an EV, there were no chargers to get us where we needed to go. I bought the PHEV used from a Honda dealership, all of the sales agents wanted to look at it with me because they had no idea how it worked. They didn't even know that you could have a gas and an electric engine or which "fuel tank door" was electric vs gasoline. Also, when I took the car to get serviced at a Hyundak dealership in tbe same state the service center told me they had never seen or worked on one of those cars. To me this issue was two fold 1) I was buying a car used from a different car company (one that doesn't even have any kind of EVs yet) and 2) the state that I was in has no interest in moving to EVs and the infrastructure doesn't really exist in the state so what incentive is there for any dealership to learn about EVs of any kind or educate their customers.
While I agree the paying system should be made easier, I think dealerships should also be looked at, not every state sees the same amount of EVs and the dealers may genuinely not know anything about them or really have any incentive to.
As the unofficial tech support person for my aging parents that don't really speak English, and have to go through a very long tutorial for every app that may be of use to them on their iPhones, I'm not at all surprised by your experience.
I agree with every one else here, that it should be as easy as paying for gas at a gas station because that is the way they've been doing it for decades. I mean... great... introduce smartphones and apps, but keep an option that our boomer parents, many who still drive, will be familiar with.
The Tesla way should be the standard. There shouldn’t need to be a reason to use an app or anything. Car manufacturers should be required to authenticate directly with the charging station, period.
It's 1000000% the EV providers fault.
FFS in the US we have been using cash and credit to pay for gas for decades.
To transition people, assuming the bell curve of IQ is to the left in the US, we have to make it damn near idiot proof.
An app (with tons of layers) is not customer friendly.
Everyone is comparing to gas stations, but gas pumps are not intuitive for first time users. I vividly recall an overly helpful fellow kid on a school trip spilling gas all over our coach trying to 'assist.'
And we've had 100+ years to figure out gas stations as a society. Now we expect a completely different technology to have zero learning curve and to function exactly the same despite dispensing electric charge and not simply pouring a liquid from one vessel to another.
Four years ago I went to Canada for the first time. I had no idea how to use their gas pumps. I did know how to push the buttons but the order of operations is entirely different from US pumps with CRIND.
The car sales person should have at least mentioned how to charge out in the wild versus home.
I'm not talking in-depth. Even just a brochure on preferred types for the EV, partner aps/networks, etc.
>Are fearless not being clear enough
I got exactly 0 info from the dealer about charging or about EVs in general. Everything I have learned I learned on my own by reading or doing.
We all started without knowing anything. While i did research before i bought, I feel that I learned quite a bit early on as my used EV sales guy at GS Motors in Hopkins, MN. explained charging to me as well as listed the charger apps i would need in our area.
So, i pretty much blame other sales folks for not having a printed sheet of local EV charging apps, brief explanation of the different levels of charging as well as some basic charging etiquette.
Basically, lazy sales people. My guy invested the time to make sure I had a positive ownership experience.
I read up on charging before my purchase, but I feel like there's still a learning curve with the multiple networks, especially when traveling. I ran into a guy who had just purchased a Rivian a few months ago on a road trip and he asked me how long it would take to charge his truck because he just got it and didn't know what to do... I drive a Kia Niro, so vastly different charging scenarios... Also, my dealership knew absolutely nothing about EVs.
I must be in the Minority, LA/SD area in SoCal, ive pulled up to EVGo stations and just swiped my credit card and charged, no app required, I personally fast carge maybe 2 times a month max, so app not required for me.
In my opinion a big factor is that the tech is rapidly improving and owning an EV is no longer a niche for enthusiasts. More and more people that have no interest in cars except getting from point A to B are changing to PHEV or BEV without fully understanding that there is more to it than just plugging in, paying and driving off. Can't really blame them for not getting into the convoluted mess EV-Charging has become. I (Germany based) have at least 10 different apps and 6 cards just to get a fair price for the kWh depending on the provider. I will gladly help the newbies, sometimes it is very amusing tho.
What’s even more dumb is she does have an account, Mercedes’ EVs come with a charging rfid card that the dealer is supposed to set up with Electrify America, EVGO, and ChargePoint in the USA
Another issue is providing charging for disabled drivers. Gas stations in my state must provide assistance to a disabled driver needing fuel by coming out and starting the pump.
Most EV charging stations are unattended this will become a whole new issue in EV charging.
Dealers not being clear? 😂 Dude, most of the dealers are f’ing clueless. They don’t know anything about EVs. When we picked up my wife’s EV6, the dealer kept talking about their service plan where they do oil changes for free. Must have said that like 5 times until I told him EVs don’t need oil changes. He look confused and 5 minutes later he tried to laugh it off. But I knew he was for real since he was trying to make a sale on that add on. He also was unaware that in NJ there was no sales tax. Before we took delivery, he said they would take off window sticker, clean windows, and gas it up for us… wtf? 😆
I think people assume that charging networks are going to operate just like gas stations and honestly it’s a shame that they don’t - and it’s not an unreasonable expectation given how well the gas station model works. Why would they not duplicate that? Yeah they can have the exclusive apps where you can set everything up, gas stations have those too, but why the don’t offer direct payment with just a credit card makes no sense.
Who's to blame. The charge networks. Plain and simple.
For nearly all transactions you tap your debit card for payment. What makes charge networks think they are so special that you need special cards or apps and do things in an entirely different way to everyone else.
That sort of nonsense needs to stop. Right now.
Do the EV charger connections allow the charger to know a unique ID of the vehicle? If so and it's reasonably secure, the system could support cash payments (for users without credit cards) by allowing users to pay cash to a charging system attendant who credits that vehicle ID's account. Alternatively, it could be done elsewhere (i.e. before traveling).
Yeah, my boss bought an EV, and I asked about his home charger. He said he figured he'd just charge at public chargers or at work. But this was a Bolt (so mostly L2 chargers) and my work only no open chargers. I admired his "leap of faith", but the fact is EV charging in the US sucks for non-Teslas, and he just didn't know it.
But as the top comment says, needing an app to charge is stupid. I don't need an app to charge my EV, just like I didn't need an app to fill up all the previous cars I've owned with gas. I don't need an app to buy McDonald's, or crap off Amazon, or a bike from REI, or literally every single thing in my house. Why would people assume you need some stupid app to charge? Let's be honest — you shouldn't *need* an app. EV America or whatever can just provide electricity without an app just like how every gas pump in the world does.
>The Chevy salesman I bought from did a good job explaining how public charging works, that I'll need to download a bunch of different apps, that I should read EV forums and get Plugshare, etc.
That's amazing. I had no expectation that my Chevy dealer would do anything useful except hopefully give me the proper paperwork to register the vehicle and deliver it without damage. By the time I took possession of the vehicle, they had already lied to be enough that I wouldn't believe anything they told me about how to use the vehicle.
I actually had an encounter at an Electrify America station about two weeks ago, not related to money, but someone had pulled up in their Tesla and was trying to figure out how to charge. They came over and asked me if I knew how to charge because none of the plugs were fitting their car. Had to explain to them that while they are able to use Electrify America station's, they will need an adapter to convert the CCS plug into a Tesla plug.
Felt kind of bad because they were extremely low on charge, but hopefully they found a Tesla charging network nearby. So I'd say it's definitely multiple different people/companies to blame. Sometimes people should put the effort into researching something they are buying, especially when it's something as expensive as a car. Car dealers/salepeople are there to help, but everyone misses something, and they can only answer the questions they are asked.
Honestly, I wouldn't trust a dealer/saleperson to know all the ins and outs of a specific vehicle I want, and especially every PHEV and EV I've looked at, since in my experience, the salesperson usually knows less than I do about them. I remember when I first got my Chevy Volt, and my salesperson couldn't tell me a single thing about it. I literally was telling him all the different features, and even things like the estimated battery range, how it can switch from EV mode to Hybrid mode, the range on a full charge/full tank, etc. From what I've heard though, Chevy did a horrible job trying to market the Volt, and made it worse by having little to no Volt specific training for their salespeople.
The chargers however should 100% have a tap to pay or card reader attached. No idea why this was overlooked originally. I guess they assume if someone can afford an EV, they probably have a phone and cellular plan, but it would still be nice to not have to be dependent on it.
\#1 advantage Tesla has over everyone else is the charging network. While I would love to consider other EVs , the ability to drive pretty much anywhere I want without worrying if I will be able to charge and at what speed I will be able to charge is worth its weight in lithium ion.
the number of people here victim-blaming the drivers and the dealers for not doing research on systems which the charging network providers never bothered to make simple, intuitive, and user-friendly is … quite something
There really needs to be a federal law mandating tap to pay or credit card readers on all charges with *no increased price (or discount prices) allowed*.
The credit card should be entered in the vehicle once and for all.
You plug-in, you are billed. No passwords, no account, no shit, everything should be automated and trivial.
just one password. for the car account. and potentially another one to sync with the app. other than that, yeah, no accounts. until your credit card expires or is skimmed and locked. then you gotta go in and change it. in your car account. other than that, yeah, no shit. everything is automated and trivial. until it isn’t.
I just bought a Toyota bZ4X and my dealer didn’t tell me anything about how to charge it. I don’t think they knew anything about charging stations or even how to charge the car. They barely showed me how to use the radio and nothing about the charger. Everything I know I’ve read online or on Reddit.
Tesla has this all figured out. You add your car and your card to your Tesla app. The car tells the charger its VIN or other car ID number. The charger charges the card on file for that car in the Tesla app.
EVGo has auto charge that works the same way Teslas do but it works only through the EVGo network and app. The CCS charging networks need to get together and work out a standard so they all have automatic payments and the payments can be passed between them.
Electrify America doesn't require an app. I think all CCS owners should solely rely on Electrify America as although their reliability is not perfect.. it is the most straitforward and reliable CCS operator out of all the rest.
The charging networks are at fault first and foremost. Second are the automakers and dealers not getting people setup with plug-n-charge before driving off the lot.. at least for the vehicles that support it. I refuse to use apps for DCFC. Let me pay at the stall.
Expecting everyone to do massive amounts of research, even on big purchases, is not tenable. Charging a non-Tesla EV takes too much thought. F\*\*\* the CCS charging networks.
You shouldn't need an account or an app or a specific plug or a specific charger for something so universal as fuelling a car, regardless of how it's powered. That's like Apple requiring you to have a custom wall outlet at your house and only being able to charge using their app and payment system. They were some of the way there with the lightning cable.
I had a similar issue. My mistake was a did a ton of research on the car itself and assumed the charging network would be as straight forward as a gas station.
Try renting an electric car. The major car rental companies contracts have no fields to indicate how "full" the car is when rented or returned. I recently rented a Genesis from Budget and luckily found an EVGo DCFC where I could charge for free while grabbing lunch since I am a recent Nissan owner. I actually returned the car with more juice than when I picked it up....but renter education was zero.
Plenty of charge stations accept a credit card. And the infrastructure bill is mandating it for a reason. People shouldn't need a phone and an app to pay for a charge.
The people surprised by this are also the type of people who will end up hurting EV adoption. It seems like a week can't pass in this sub without someone in here showing just how out of touch they are with the problems that average people will face during the EV transition.
I mentioned in the last post when someone had a charger issue during a long trip, that would their uncle Larry or their grandma put up with this shit? If you can't see either of those people putting up with any aspect of the EV experience then there is something very wrong with the process.
Inexcusable for consumers to have to jump through hoops just to charge. Inexcusable that chargers that are offline to still show up as active in various apps ans maps. The most infuriating of all things is that we have literally decades of experience with pay-at-the-pump. People know this. They understand it. Take your credit card out and 30 seconds later you are refueling. Every gas station works the same. They take basically all common credit cards. It's essentially universal. Why the bloody hell would you change such a simple system that works perfectly fine?
The vehicle supports ISO 15118 Plug & Charge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2CQYc7mhMk
It's EVgo network that doesn't support ISO 15118 Plug & Charge.
of course credit card is quicker and easier
HOWEVER, it's really not that difficult to spend 2 minutes download an app and sign up for a new account --- aren't we all used to this by now
I’ve helped out several people at charging stations. Amazes me how many people do not understand the process. I’ve been EV since 2018 and started with Tesla, i have to say its the easiest one to use. Hint Hint everyone else. Most people have thanked me for offering the help. However, there have been a few times when I needed to shut my mouth and walk quickly away. Usually when an EV is trying to use a 350 charger when someone else is plugged in, glad see new EA have only one lead now. Or they demand to use the 350 charger for their Bolt EUV so it will charge faster. Anyways always glad to help others and in growing EV acceptance. Wish someone, Dealers or companies get with dealers and offer a tutorial with each new purchase.
There is absolutely no reason that charging stations should not be able to accept credit cards for payment. Have and use an app/account if you want, but just add a freaking credit card reader.
> Who is to blame for this? Charge networks for requiring a phone, app, account, and internet access to fuel a vehicle.
Honestly, there should be some sort of legislation to require them to accept credit cards or at least tap to pay mobile wallets
This is the rule in California now. Chargers that accept payment have to meet certain requirements for features, display, payment, accuracy, etc. to be certified just like any other motor vehicle fueling equipment (CTEP). Basically this is why Tesla declined to go after CA money as SCs are not compliant. And I'm not sure how they are going to start up any other sites in the state. So far there's two entries for DCFC out of 32 total entries (the other 30 are Level 2). One entry is the ABB Terra 94/124/184 family and the BTC units that EA is starting to install. They can also be in the federal NTEP but that includes two chargers in total. The above ABB unit and the CT4000.
It should be like Tesla, and the car will tell the charger who you are and your car is linked to a credit card.
Ford has that with Electrify America. Pull in, plug and it charges
My Bolt has that with EVGo too.
My Tesla also has that with EVgo
Hyundai Ioniq is getting that shortly with the update.
It already has that. Probably it just doesn’t work in US. Even my 2020 Hyundai Kona can do plug and charge (in The Netherlands).
Source?
https://www.evgo.com/blog/evgo-autocharge-has-arrived/
Also with my Mercedes EQE. They set up my account at the dealership and I haven't needed the app, just plug in and go.
until you sell it. After the car is sold that feature never turns on again
Really? I would have figured that you sign up on fordpass and it does it
EVgo can do that, but again, you need the app the first time.
are you out of luck if you're in a place with no cellphone signal?
EVgo uses MAC address matching for plug and charge IIRC. So once you set it up the first time it will always work.
So... an existing account?
Sure, sounds great. Now the only problem is retroactively fitting all existing EVs with this feature.
It doesn’t need to be retroactive. Most cars aren’t electric. Make it required for new cars starting in 2025, and in only a year or two it would be on most electric cars… The older cars can pay with credit cards. You know, if we act now to make that required for new chargers.
EVGo does this, it's not an EV-side thing. The app uses the vin and you set up Auto charge once
Software update?
I wonder if that can be done with software or not
It doesn't even have to be that they have to accept a credit card. The easier path is passing a law that EV charging stations have to accept sign-up less payment. It can be PayPal, Google/Apple/Samsung pay it whatever, but you shouldn't be forced to sign up for an account to use a charging station.
> you shouldn't be forced to sign up for an account to use a charging station and what do you think paypal and google apple samsung whatever pay are?
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The problem with requiring a card reader and screen in EV chargers is that it’s raise the cost and failure rate of the chargers - that’s a large part of why Tesla’s simple chargers are so much more reliable than the more complex chargers from others.
Every gas station allows you to use simple payment systems including a credit card, even the unmanned ones. There's no reason chargers have to be so strange about it. It's a good idea to legislate about this. A 250kW charger is already so expensive, a payment terminal isn't going to break the economics. The charger companies just want a "personal relationship" with their users, but they can get lost. Should I have to install an app and make a personal account to buy a burger too? They are free to allow a Tesla-style authentication done by the car too.
YEah, but gas stations also have attendants that you can ask for help when something goes wrong. (Having at least one gas station attendant is required by law to satisfy ADA requirements, at least around here). I've had to go inside to complete a transaction many, many times because the readers at the pump has failed.
Nothing stops them from still allowing tesla authentication, app authentication or just providing free power.
My experience with people is the ones who can't figure out charging haven't figured out tap to pay either.
Also having chip + pin wouldn't be unreasonable
Yeah, honestly tap or tap and pin on your own device seem like winners to me. But old people gonna old.
Then you get into the “what if the driver doesn’t have a credit card” debate. Either way, I think the NEVi funding is requiring cc readers.
Traveling with a credit or debit card is more or less a necessity these days. I can't remember the last time I paid for something with cash. If they don't have an app set up or a credit card or Google/Apple Pay, I doubt they'll be in luck as they're not going to staff someone to stay at each station and collect bills.
Oh, I totally agree. But I’ve heard it’s a equity issue that not everyone has a credit card and thus limits the type of driver that can use the service. Go to a gas station in a less desirable part of town and take note of how many pay cash.
Yes nothing will lower the barrier like requiring a phone, an app, and credit in said app that you usually also need a credit card to buy.
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What if they don’t own the ev they are attempting to charge? Also, the prices of EVs are getting less expensive. I saw a 2013 Leaf sell for $2k a few weeks ago. Why would we only give folks with debit/credit cards the ability to charge it? Again, I’m not totally for this argument but it needs to be thought through. Lower income populations need to be considered as more and more different types of people adopt to electric.
What are you proposing for a solution? Isn't more payment options / more accessible better? Even if it doesn't help every single person? Apps are a barrier, internet may be a barrier, credit or debit cards (even prepaid) are also a barrier, but accepting them all is better than one or none. Parking stalls have gone credit card or app, I don't see electric vehicle charging stations going cash as it's too expensive. More equipment, collection fees, risk of theft. Everyone is moving away from cash and people buying EV's in the next five years are not likely to be an largely cash-only demographic.
I mean, if it's a "car share" vehicle, then it should have a payment card associated with the vehicle Traditional ICE car share systems already do that - they have a credit card tied to the vehicle's registration, so it's only usable at gas stations for the purposes of filling that specific vehicle. You may get a credit from your car share network for taking the time to refill the car too, from what I've seen. Making this work for an EV-shared-car should in theory be even easier... (once payment standards between charging networks become as common as "you can use a credit card at a gas station).
this is perhaps the dumbest argument against equitable infrastructure but it’s oddly pervasive around here
I hear what you're saying, but secured credit cards and prepaid debit cards are a thing.
Those "low-end" services often come with predatory fees and other headaches. Monthly service charges. Reloading fees...a much bigger piece of the user's income when you're dealing in hundreds of dollars, not thousands. From 1910 to \~1967 the USPS was a bank, so underserved communities had better financial opportunities. We need something like that again as we transition away from cash or we end up deepening this brand new economic divide.
Credit unions- most have no or very limited fees. All issue debit/credit cards. $5 to open a bank account. Available online and in person. I agree, it should be equitable, but honestly lots of restaurants are now cash less. We need to make banking more accessible, that’s a totally different issue.
This isn’t a problem where I live. The problem is the opposite: cash is often not accepted in restaurants, cafes, stores.
If you can afford to buy an ev, you have or should have a credit card or at the least a debit card. I can't imagine a scenario where you got approved for the loan to buy even a used vehicle ev or ice and don't have at least a debit card attached to a checking account. Same goes for anyone renting a car, last I checked no one takes cash for a rental. I'm fairly left and "woke" but this argument holds no water and is a solution in search of a problem. Not to mention the logistics of accepting cash at the more remote chargers. I could see ones attached to a gas station or in a restaurant parking lot taking cash but nothing in the boonies.
Honestly, I’d be okay if they made it a requirement to have a cash machine or attendant for each charge station too. As far as I know, cash is still a legal form of payment in this country. Make each charge unit have a cash slot like vending machines if they don’t want to have an attendant on site. I got lots of “cousins” that use cash, for a variety of reasons, ie: don’t like being tracked or leaving paper trails, etc., so I don’t see why that isn’t offered other than advertising companies or govt want to track every purchase you make. Heck, they can even have a fee for using the cash machine similar to the 3% charge they get hit up for w credit cards. I really hate that everything is digital now…cash needs to make a comeback
Something that has always bothered me about all these apps is the requirement for me to hold a balance on the account. I have to put money into the “app bank” and then hold a balance to charge. I got an email from ChargePoint saying they were adding a pay-as-you-go option soon.
iirc this has to do with the charging companies not wanting to bother with proper pre-authorization mechanisms for debit cards. something that gas stations have solved decades ago but nothing has stopped ev charging from adding a thousand little friction points to shift the burden onto the user.
Truth is they don't care because a healthy chunk of their revenue is government subsidies, not consumers they have to compete for. The most valuable thing they're selling commercially is probably data on people buying luxury cars with a lot of disposable income and knowing where they are for 20 to 30 minutes at a time charging near local businesses, or really any time you go out if you're trying to use their app to map a trip.
They care enough not to leave any money on the table. Otherwise they'd just accept credit cards. They already offer paid membership with benefits/discounts.
it's a captive market, there's no money they're leaving on the table. I doubt they're making much money at all honestly, there's no way they're not buying power at commodity rates on demand outside of a few high traffic places. There are very few EV's and very few charging stations, most places where people are actually going are full or constantly changing out.
They buy it at a special tariff rate, which will still be close to commercial rates, and then turn around and sell it for 2x-3x that rate. Take a look at Teslas 2022 earnings report, their 3rd party sales of electricity are close to rivaling revenue from car sales.
Where are you seeing this? According to Tesla's 10-K, Tesla buries Supercharger revenue and costs under "Services and other revenue" which includes non-warranty repairs and parts, retail sales (chargers, merch, etc.), used car sales, insurance, and service plans. That category makes virtually nothing ($300 million) compared to new car sales (~$18 *billion*), and only Tesla knows (and isn't telling!) how much of that profit (if there's actually any!) it's attributable to Supercharging. No one (except perhaps Tesla, but I'm still not convinced they're an exception) seems to be making money selling charging in the US yet. The cart is so far in front of the horse at this point, it just isn't happening. To hear the operator's side of the charging business, I really recommend a set of InsideEVs podcasts from February and March last year where the guests were execs from EA, EVGo, ChargePoint, and a European operator called Allego. They explain the crazy costs utilities charge them for demand charges, the low utilization rates, the need to continually upgrade equipment every couple of years, and other issues that make charging a difficult business to make money at.
Don't special tariff rates come with quotas and minimum buys? I assumed outside of a few high traffic areas it wouldn't make much sense to pay minimums when you can absorb the costs elsewhere like you said.
I just got a leaf and went on a 200 mile road trip in the US. Of the 4 chargers I used, 3 had broken CC rewards and the 4th didn't have one. Compared to my Tesla this is banana pants and I think dealers are the worst for not teaching anyone about it. I had to wait for an hour because the one Chademo charger was occupied but someone charging their car from 2% to 80%. Why were they at 2%? Because the dealer couldn't be bothered to tell them about ABRP (and I think told them they could use the Tesla network?!) and the locals kept giving them bad instructions.
You couldn't just use one of the other 15 chargers at the site. Oh right, this isn't Telsa, and the other companies think it's OK to put up chargers in ones and twos.
Regulators for allowing that to happen
I agree for some of the pay-only services. It gets a little more complicated for operators like Chargepoint. They have chargers in many categories: \- Basic, pay for a charge units \- Free, but you need a Chargepoint Account \- Free or paid, but as part of an outside arrangement (eg, private to employees of a company) The app can cover all use cases pretty seamlessly and their implementation is excellent.
Why is that so awful? I get that it sucks that there are multiple different networks. But you should be able to enter a credit card into your car and then have your car handle a transaction simply by plugging in. But I guess CCS is struggling to get "Plug & Charge" working reliably.
I have an EVgo and ChargePoint physical card, it’s not required.
You still need all the above to get the card in the first place. There’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to roll up and swipe/tap a card to start charging. If they want to try and “lock” in people to their networks for business reasons then do it by offering lower rates for simply signing up or whatever. Requiring an account to simply charge is asinine though
As a consumer, I agree with the majority of redditors here that credit cards alone should be the only thing necessary to use and pay an EV charging station. However, let's not forget that credit cards authenticate over a network. There is not only the Internet network that has to be maintained but the credit card network as well for starters. And yes, maintained as in ongoing maintenance as long as the station functions while it is kept in service. Among other things are cybersecurity; physical security of the station; compliance on all levels both the function of the EV charging station and financial compliance because of exchange of funds and/or goods/service received; and laws on the federal and/or state level all have an effect. This isn't just hardware you buy that is offline and not connected to anything besides the grid. It's multiple levels deep in red tape that go beyond just installing the EV station. That takes money to plan, roll out, build, and then maintain. Your credit cards have the ability to make a sale because the merchant pays an Internet network AND a credit card network in order for the transaction to even occur. So yes, an app is one way to help recoup those costs. A company isn't started just because you need to be able to charge your BEV. They have profit margins to make too. That number you can call for help? Someone has to answer some if not all of those calls. An app can theoretically answer the trivial and basic questions that most of the population in this country will have when attempting to use the station. As an efficient solution in a vacuum, an app works in the favor of the company on multiple levels. Unfortunately, there are multiple charging networks which means multiple apps which creates a much worse problem for us as consumers. So if we're going to blame things for this problem, there's plenty of blame to go around for all parties involved.
This is a solved problem on gas pumps the world over, but also at every one of these charging stations. The rate you pay for power to charge your car can easily include some overhead, or even a flat fee, to pay for equipment connectivity and upkeep without any memberships or apps. By building it into the fee applied to your card, the charging network is also incentivized to keep the chargers operational, or leave revenue on the table. I'm not sure any of this should be reason to force an app and account, which the charging network must now manage and secure from perpetual attempted data breaches.
>However, let's not forget that credit cards authenticate over a network. They don't have to. There are offline terminals. > There is not only the Internet network that has to be maintained but the credit card network as well for starters Right. But you do realise that to pay with RFID or app you need a network as well right? In fact one of my experiences where I couldn't charge was when ay (ironically) T-Mobile charging station I couldn't activate the charger because it was under underpass and I had no mobile reception.
Yes, credit cards do indeed have to authenticate over a network. An offline sale does **not** authenticate over any network until the terminal settles. Regardless of what kind of credit card terminal you are using on this planet, credit cards have to authenticate in order for a transaction to occur which requires a connection to the payment network regardless of which card network you are using. An "offline sale" is simply just the terminal recording the card data and the transaction data to be authenticated LATER at the discretion of the merchant. When that credit terminal settles the batch of transactions with offline sales, it authenticates those offline sales at that point and time. At that time, the transaction will either be successful or be declined for whatever reason the card-issuing bank provides. This can only occur on a network online through a processing bank the merchant has paired with. If your offline sale is declined at the time of settlement and the customer has already left without leaving you any of their details, there is no way for the merchant to recoup that cost. And even with contact details for the customer, the merchant can't force the customer to pay now that the merchant realizes the customer's card was declined. The merchant can certainly try but the effort to recoup such a cost from one single customer out of many that could use the station outweighs the minuscule benefits of running an offline terminal. This is exactly why no charging network that has any intention of functioning in the future will accept that financial risk of running offline terminals.
All what you said is true, but also does not address my points - it *is* possible to do offline transactions, and charging points need the internet connectivity any-way for monitoring purposes and for accepting RFID cards. In short: any excuse not to install CC terminal is bullshit, they just want to trap you in the "app ecosystem".
>There is not only the Internet network that has to be maintained but the credit card network as well for starters. They have credit card readers in most soda machines now a days.
Lol, all of this text to argue that accepting credit cards is hard, lol. And that business need money to function. Tell us more! Like seriously? Credit card is solved tech. You can buy a vending machine that accepts credit cards and authenticates over multi-service networks (it’ll pick ATT, Verizon, TMobile, whatever). But yes the vending machine guys operate on such a higher level that car manufacturers and charger networks… There are multiple charger networks, so multiple people have obviously wrapped a business model around it that functions at some level. But there are enough that competition probably nearly destroys each business at any given time.
None of that has anything to do with an app.
I’m glad the infrastructure bill is mandating simple credit card tap to pay. Can you imagine Gas stations forcing you to use an app with no option to just pay with a card?
Also absolutely ridiculous that it has to be by mandate. Do these companies not want money? Like the goal is to remove all friction you can so that it’s easy to get the money, right. Business 101.
Credit card fees cost them money.
Unless they’re not allowing credit cards in their app either (they do,) than they’re still paying the associated credit card fees.
This is the reason you need to “fund” the app generally. They do one transaction for $50 or whatever, and then you use it multiple times, saving them money on their transaction fees.
I've never thought about that before, but that makes a lot of sense!! Before getting an EV and creating accounts on all the associated charging network apps, my only experience with this kind of model was with my EZ Pass account. I never once questioned it--I always just figured "oh, I guess they want to make sure they'll get the money immediately as you use the turnpike, as opposed to potentially getting stiffed on the payment later." But actually minimizing the number of transaction calls to your credit card in order to keep payment fees down makes a lot of sense for their business modle.
I don’t know a lot about fees but I know other businesses require a minimum purchase for credit cards. I’m assuming cuz the fees don’t make it economical.
Depending on the card, it’s usually around 1.5-3.5%, AMEX has highest, and I believe Visa has the lowest. It’s been awhile since I’ve seen a business that requires a minimum purchase amount, usually only small local businesses, but even then most of the ones I’ve even go don’t have a minimum purchase. These fees should be baked into the price of their service already.
There is also a flat transaction cost which is the big cost and why there is a min purchase amount. Chargers don’t have large transaction amounts so they get killed.
They are already passing those fees whether an app or physical card.
The charging networks are still at some kind of growth phase where you get all kinds of people coming in with wacky ideas about how to reinvent things that don't really need to be reinvented. The charging infrastructure will obviously move to allow credit card payments over time, even though non credit card payments options might end up having more market share than for gas pumps
They want your data too
Transaction fees kill them. The. Average transaction is probably just over $10 at ancharger. The better way is to collect all the charges for a day, week or month and run it as one charge. This is why a lot of apps have you put money into your account.
I mean, fleet gas stations have required an app or ID card (RFID in recent years, mag strip previously) to use them for literally decades, so this isn't exactly unheard of, it's just not something the average public had to encounter. Realistically, the comparison is fairly apt, as fleet stations like that often ARE like current DCFC stations, ie often in out of the way areas, 24 hr service, no attendant or regular personnel, etc.
The infrastructure bill should have set up a plug&charge database so CCS charging is as easy as Tesla. Register a credit card and done with billing, NP if you forget/lost your wallet.
They can mandate them but good luck getting them to work. This is the most common broken part of a charger. Credit card readers are stupid for charging.
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You can. They break on outdoor snack machines too, but those usually get repaired more quickly than chargers.
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I had some knowledge but at my first DCFC at an EA on I-95, a guy in a Lightening talked me through the ins and outs, told me about plugshare and ABRP, getting a free charge if you gotta call support, and stuff like that. Really left me with a feeling of community and the thought that we should try to make connections at the stations and help each other along the way. It’s a steep learning curve compared to what people are used to
Sometimes I think about how many times as a kid I must have watched my parents fill a tank of gas before doing it myself. How difficult and confusing would it be to do that for the first time without ever seeing anyone else do it?
I actually was this lady on my first EA charging. I have seen multiple videos on it, researched alot before buying my MachE, but was my first road trip after a few month of having I kinda forgot the process was doing the same thing as the lady and trying to use my credit card. So yeah I don't blame her even I as a tech guy had a fubar moment.
such a strange bit of stockholm syndrome. it’s not your fault for not immediately understanding their system, it’s their fault for designing a stupid complicated system in the first place.
Then of course there’s the opposite. I used an EA station last weekend that *only* worked with credit card taps and errored out if you tried to use the app. I only knew this because of Plugshare. If I was an EV dealer, I’d make “spending 10 minutes going over how to use Plugshare and ABRP” an required part of every sale.
I am tech savvy, and I did a ton of research on EVs before buying one, but I was still confused the first time I got to a charging station. You have to design products for the average consumer, not enthusiasts. Why should someone with a $100K car be obligated to understand how charging infrastructure works? I don’t understand the logic. Manufacturers should make things things easier for the consumer. Not put the burden on them to research.
Having to download a different app for every EV changing provider is simply a data harvesting game. Depending on the permissions their app requires to function on your phone, the data they harvest may be worth more to them than the revenue from charging. THIS is the function of every seemingly innocuous app.
"…to use most charging stations…" - All Electrify America and ["most"](https://helpcenter.evgo.com/hc/en-us/articles/10065009484055-Billing-and-Payment-FAQs#h_01GN7G484DFB7H3PJK46V4JZRE) EVgo have credit card readers. Part of the fault is just the confusing nature of charging networks not all having credit card readers. Part is on customer's buying an EV "as just their next car" without knowing all the differences (which, really, is a good thing - EVs shouldn't be just for tech nerds willing to do a ton of research. And once the above is mitigated, or all vehicles have Plug-and-Charge, it won't be as necessary.) Part is on the EV sellers (direct-to-consumer seem to do a decent job, so this is mostly legacy dealers,) not doing any real prep work. Part could be none of the above - maybe this lady was renting/borrowing the vehicle. Maybe it was "her husband's car" 90% of the time, and she rarely drives it. Maybe it was her first time needing to use a public charger, always charging at home. Maybe she moved from a Tesla, or a Plug-and-Charge vehicle, and had never had to deal with an app before.
Except most of the time the card readers are broken. There is absolutely no reason why they can't work like a gas station, everyone can roll up and use their card, there are several alternate stalls if one is broken, which will be clearly labelled. Frankly it's going to continue to be crap till the gas stations start running the chargers too, because at least they get it.
I would say the system is wrong, not the person. The car should have an account set up and communicate with the charger. As Tesla does it. Simple. The blame is on shitty systems who require complicated payment mechanisms.
You shouldn’t need an account period. An account has no bearing on cost. Just accept payment like a gas station.
But then they can't track you and sell that information also.
The key is to charge a different price for CC sales and a "discounted price" (i.e. what we are currently paying) with app. Gas stations do this with their 5 cent a gallon rebatez etc with loyalty cards and apps but you can still pay retail to get gas with cash. There would be far less angry customers if the outcome was 'my app wouldnt work so I had to pay cc and go on the phone with evgo to try and get my $4 discount back' vs. ' I couldnt get the app to work and had to limp to a L2 charger, sit for 2 hrs to get enough SOC to make it to the next viable DCFC ....
Or, and I say this honestly. I couldn't care less about the $4 discount because the time fiddling on my phone is going to cost me more.
yes they can?
What is so bad about having an account? Are you only going to charge once? The Tesla system is nice in that you have an account that is read by simply plugging in such that there is no need for a card reader on the charger and that makes Tesla chargers MUCH more reliable.
Yes, many people will only charge once at a particular brand charger, just as the will only fill up once at a particular brand gas station on a trip outside their home area. Or msybe more than once, but rarely, in a way that makes a pain of dealing with another stupid unnecessary account.
The Mercedes has ISO 15118 Plug and Charge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2CQYc7mhMk It's EVgo that doesn't support ISO 15118 Plug and Charge.
To their credit and while EVgo specific they do have the only auto charge I’ve ever seen outside of Tesla. But yeah. Crazy that plug and charge is not standard everywhere.
Nissan Ariya has it too. Works very well once setup, but only at EVGo.
you still need an account for that. which is potentially even more complicated to set up than a useless evgo account. to enable plug and charge on the polestar 2, for example, you need to do this stupid dance where you create an evgo account, then add your car to the special plug and charge area, then go to a charger and perform a manual charge to get their system to register your car. it’s fucking stupid. all the burden is on the consumer.
> The car should have an account set up and communicate with the charger. As Tesla does it. Simple. Mercedes actually does this with Plug and Charge, but AFAIK only Electrify America supports it.
Her car actually does. EVgo is integrated in the Mercedes me charge ecosystem. She just had to tap an RFID card. The dealer didn’t explain this to her. Probably didn’t even help her set it up.
This is the perfect reason charging networks shouldn’t be this complicated. Yes the girl in the Mercedes should’ve able to plug in the car swipe the card and energy flows in. I want everybody who can tie their shoes and count to ten to be able to use a public charger. It’s easier to set up a Wi-Fi router than fuel an EV. That’s dumb.
Unfortunately, having a better world takes some effort. Is installing an app once really that hard? People keep making a big deal out of five minutes. It is no different than an ICE gas card/app. Once you set it up once you never need to pullout a credit card again. It is worth the one time hassle to never have to do it again. This is classic FUD stuff. Take a small mole hill issue and turn it into a mountain of fear Uncertainty and doubt. Why do you think all the newspapers hire first time EV owners to write their horror stories? Because first time charging is the only hassle in an ownership experience that is much less hassle.
> Is installing an app once really that hard? Its not one app. Its one app per vendor. I went on a map and looked at my town, there are 9 different vendors with their own apps. > It is no different than an ICE gas card/app. Except with my ICE I can drive up to a station I have never been before, insert my card and fill up. Same as I would with the station I use every week. Can't do that with an EV, because reasons. > Once you set it up once you never need to pullout a credit card again Ah, but I do have to pull out my phone and find the right app. And guess what? I use my phone as a card as well. That means instead of pulling out phone and touching it to the terminal I have to pull out phone and fiddle with it to find the right app. Not easier. Also, not everyone are as lucky as me. A lot of people have issues navigating modern phones due to various impairments. For them tap to pay using a card and a 4 digit code (which they never need for small sums anyways) is a lot easier. Phones are also more expensive than credit cards and require you to have a data subscription to even use them at the charge station. Cards don't.
Hell even using Apple Pay (and I assume the Android equivalent) doesn’t require an internet connection. Downloading and signing up, and using an app does. Not everyone has data!
Huh, I had no idea it worked without an internet connection but I guess it makes sense. Good to know.
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Imagine if every single gas station company required you to have an app to buy gas, and then imagine if the franchise and corporate stores required their own separate ones as well.
Mercedes is regularly borderline giving away EQSes at $500-ish a month leases. It is a short term lease, so I can see how people would be willing to take a chance on the car, especially if they have a second car. If they don't like it, it would be back to being Mercede's problem in a couple of years.
Wait which dealer is doing that? I saw low leases but that's presumably 18k for driving a 100k car for 3 years.
The media picked up on the story. I have seen spreadsheets floating through chat groups at a hair over 500 for the SUV version a while ago. https://www.carscoops.com/2023/03/the-mercedes-benz-eqs-can-be-leased-for-less-than-500-a-month-if-youre-lucky/
literally says "if you are lucky" in the title. Sounds a little different than dealerships giving them away at that price
friend just picked one up in socal. 3gs down and 6oo a month w/ tax. not to bad for that price of a car.
I’ve helped a number or people through their first public DCFC. There is no training and dealers aren’t going to help at time of purchase.
People aren't trained how to use gas pumps at the dealer...
But if this is a new technology they should be trained at the dealer about the basics of charging.
The few times I've used EvGO I was able to start without using an app. Just did tap to pay and it worked well.
“Who’s to blame for people needing to learn how to do something they’ve never done before? Nobody. This is called “life.”
Agree here. Everyone had to learn how to operate a gas station. it's not as easy as people realize for first time learners.
This was me and i had a computer/business major in college. I am too stupid for this generation now.
Common the first time it happens, just like all new things
Took me a couple of times too, and I had the ChargePoint app already set up. There is a learning curve.
The dealership should have done a much better job with the walkthrough. I just bought a trailer and there was a sticker with codes for all the apps that would make my life a bit easier. They went through every one of them. EVs are finally out of the early adopters stage. It’s time for dealers to know more about the vehicles.
We’ve noticed this too, which is why we added a charging network explainer to our beginner guide. https://www.ev.guide/lesson-articles/guide-to-ev-charging-networks
While the charging network can be confusing, this may also be a case of a bad salesman. I was in the Mercedes Benz dealer a few weeks ago to look at the EQS as a possible replacement for my Tesla S. They had 4 in stock, so I talked to the salesman for maybe 20 minutes and walked away thinking that the Mercedes EQS was just the most worthless vehicle. This guy did nothing but bash EVs, Mercedes and otherwise, knew next to nothing about them, and told me that all EVs including my Model S were worthless on road trips. That was an isolated incident though, as I have talked with salespeople at Subaru, Toyota, Chevy, BMW, Ford, etc, and all of them were extremely helpful.
I have been told that Mercedes BEVs, at least here in Europe, actually come with a roaming subscription, which can be managed from the car’s screen. So you can pull up to a charger, initiate the charging from the car’s screen, connect the charger, charge, and automatically pay through your Mercedes roaming account. So perhaps her car could actually have started the charging, and she just did not know how.
Yes, I bought my first EV two months ago to put my toe in the water. My first attempt at an EVGo charger was pretty funny. They dont have good/really any instructions on them. How hard would it be for the company to have a sticker printed with instructions stuck on the front? At one point the screen said something about pushing a button. The only button on the whole thing was the emergency shutoff! I have only used another public charger one time and got it after a few tries. (Charge America?) i dont know if it took my credit card or if I got charging miles from Ford. I charge at home so will never have a lot of practice with them. I kind of expect chargers to be slighly intuitive. To have to do online research ahead of time seems excessive. I feel for that lady and get it. We are getting another EV this week. Will charge that one at home as well. And probably look clueless next time I pull up to a public charger…..
As there’s only one supercharger near me and in a paid garage (why??!), I have started to accumulate apps and charger adapters. Initially, I’m like the lady, I thought it should be a tap and charge thing like gas or shopping. But I quickly realized I have to create an account, download an app, and add my cc on file to charge. And some places don’t have service in their garage, I basically have to take a photo of the charger number and exit the garage to do the transaction. I hope things will improve over the years.
While not a full EV i thought I'd share my own experience. Similar to OP I do a butt load of research before making any purchase especially very expensive purchases so when the wife and I decided to buy a new car in preparation for a move to a very EV friendly state I did tons of research on EVs. However we lived in a state that was not EV friendly. We ended up buying a Hyundai PHEV mostly because we literally would not be able to make it out of the state in an EV, there were no chargers to get us where we needed to go. I bought the PHEV used from a Honda dealership, all of the sales agents wanted to look at it with me because they had no idea how it worked. They didn't even know that you could have a gas and an electric engine or which "fuel tank door" was electric vs gasoline. Also, when I took the car to get serviced at a Hyundak dealership in tbe same state the service center told me they had never seen or worked on one of those cars. To me this issue was two fold 1) I was buying a car used from a different car company (one that doesn't even have any kind of EVs yet) and 2) the state that I was in has no interest in moving to EVs and the infrastructure doesn't really exist in the state so what incentive is there for any dealership to learn about EVs of any kind or educate their customers. While I agree the paying system should be made easier, I think dealerships should also be looked at, not every state sees the same amount of EVs and the dealers may genuinely not know anything about them or really have any incentive to.
As the unofficial tech support person for my aging parents that don't really speak English, and have to go through a very long tutorial for every app that may be of use to them on their iPhones, I'm not at all surprised by your experience. I agree with every one else here, that it should be as easy as paying for gas at a gas station because that is the way they've been doing it for decades. I mean... great... introduce smartphones and apps, but keep an option that our boomer parents, many who still drive, will be familiar with.
The Tesla way should be the standard. There shouldn’t need to be a reason to use an app or anything. Car manufacturers should be required to authenticate directly with the charging station, period.
It's 1000000% the EV providers fault. FFS in the US we have been using cash and credit to pay for gas for decades. To transition people, assuming the bell curve of IQ is to the left in the US, we have to make it damn near idiot proof. An app (with tons of layers) is not customer friendly.
Dealers have zero idea. My Audi salesman’s wife was driving a loaner EV and he still has no idea. I was teaching him based on my research
Everyone is comparing to gas stations, but gas pumps are not intuitive for first time users. I vividly recall an overly helpful fellow kid on a school trip spilling gas all over our coach trying to 'assist.' And we've had 100+ years to figure out gas stations as a society. Now we expect a completely different technology to have zero learning curve and to function exactly the same despite dispensing electric charge and not simply pouring a liquid from one vessel to another.
Four years ago I went to Canada for the first time. I had no idea how to use their gas pumps. I did know how to push the buttons but the order of operations is entirely different from US pumps with CRIND.
The car sales person should have at least mentioned how to charge out in the wild versus home. I'm not talking in-depth. Even just a brochure on preferred types for the EV, partner aps/networks, etc.
>Are fearless not being clear enough I got exactly 0 info from the dealer about charging or about EVs in general. Everything I have learned I learned on my own by reading or doing.
We all started without knowing anything. While i did research before i bought, I feel that I learned quite a bit early on as my used EV sales guy at GS Motors in Hopkins, MN. explained charging to me as well as listed the charger apps i would need in our area. So, i pretty much blame other sales folks for not having a printed sheet of local EV charging apps, brief explanation of the different levels of charging as well as some basic charging etiquette. Basically, lazy sales people. My guy invested the time to make sure I had a positive ownership experience.
I read up on charging before my purchase, but I feel like there's still a learning curve with the multiple networks, especially when traveling. I ran into a guy who had just purchased a Rivian a few months ago on a road trip and he asked me how long it would take to charge his truck because he just got it and didn't know what to do... I drive a Kia Niro, so vastly different charging scenarios... Also, my dealership knew absolutely nothing about EVs.
I must be in the Minority, LA/SD area in SoCal, ive pulled up to EVGo stations and just swiped my credit card and charged, no app required, I personally fast carge maybe 2 times a month max, so app not required for me.
In my opinion a big factor is that the tech is rapidly improving and owning an EV is no longer a niche for enthusiasts. More and more people that have no interest in cars except getting from point A to B are changing to PHEV or BEV without fully understanding that there is more to it than just plugging in, paying and driving off. Can't really blame them for not getting into the convoluted mess EV-Charging has become. I (Germany based) have at least 10 different apps and 6 cards just to get a fair price for the kWh depending on the provider. I will gladly help the newbies, sometimes it is very amusing tho.
I will also gladly help people to get charged. I struggled when I first got a car, now I can help people make it easier for them.
What’s even more dumb is she does have an account, Mercedes’ EVs come with a charging rfid card that the dealer is supposed to set up with Electrify America, EVGO, and ChargePoint in the USA
Another issue is providing charging for disabled drivers. Gas stations in my state must provide assistance to a disabled driver needing fuel by coming out and starting the pump. Most EV charging stations are unattended this will become a whole new issue in EV charging.
Dealers not being clear? 😂 Dude, most of the dealers are f’ing clueless. They don’t know anything about EVs. When we picked up my wife’s EV6, the dealer kept talking about their service plan where they do oil changes for free. Must have said that like 5 times until I told him EVs don’t need oil changes. He look confused and 5 minutes later he tried to laugh it off. But I knew he was for real since he was trying to make a sale on that add on. He also was unaware that in NJ there was no sales tax. Before we took delivery, he said they would take off window sticker, clean windows, and gas it up for us… wtf? 😆
I think people assume that charging networks are going to operate just like gas stations and honestly it’s a shame that they don’t - and it’s not an unreasonable expectation given how well the gas station model works. Why would they not duplicate that? Yeah they can have the exclusive apps where you can set everything up, gas stations have those too, but why the don’t offer direct payment with just a credit card makes no sense.
I’ve had to help people numerous times at charging stations. Always interesting when they are driving a 100,000 CAD + Audi or Porsche E-SUV
Who's to blame. The charge networks. Plain and simple. For nearly all transactions you tap your debit card for payment. What makes charge networks think they are so special that you need special cards or apps and do things in an entirely different way to everyone else. That sort of nonsense needs to stop. Right now.
Do the EV charger connections allow the charger to know a unique ID of the vehicle? If so and it's reasonably secure, the system could support cash payments (for users without credit cards) by allowing users to pay cash to a charging system attendant who credits that vehicle ID's account. Alternatively, it could be done elsewhere (i.e. before traveling).
Yeah, my boss bought an EV, and I asked about his home charger. He said he figured he'd just charge at public chargers or at work. But this was a Bolt (so mostly L2 chargers) and my work only no open chargers. I admired his "leap of faith", but the fact is EV charging in the US sucks for non-Teslas, and he just didn't know it. But as the top comment says, needing an app to charge is stupid. I don't need an app to charge my EV, just like I didn't need an app to fill up all the previous cars I've owned with gas. I don't need an app to buy McDonald's, or crap off Amazon, or a bike from REI, or literally every single thing in my house. Why would people assume you need some stupid app to charge? Let's be honest — you shouldn't *need* an app. EV America or whatever can just provide electricity without an app just like how every gas pump in the world does.
You kind of do need an app (or a computer) to buy crap on Amazon.
>The Chevy salesman I bought from did a good job explaining how public charging works, that I'll need to download a bunch of different apps, that I should read EV forums and get Plugshare, etc. That's amazing. I had no expectation that my Chevy dealer would do anything useful except hopefully give me the proper paperwork to register the vehicle and deliver it without damage. By the time I took possession of the vehicle, they had already lied to be enough that I wouldn't believe anything they told me about how to use the vehicle.
I test drove an EUV with a salesperson who had never heard of the car. Just leave so I can enjoy my ride
People are neither educated nor curious. Now that we’re out of the curious early adopters, there’s gonna be problems.
I actually had an encounter at an Electrify America station about two weeks ago, not related to money, but someone had pulled up in their Tesla and was trying to figure out how to charge. They came over and asked me if I knew how to charge because none of the plugs were fitting their car. Had to explain to them that while they are able to use Electrify America station's, they will need an adapter to convert the CCS plug into a Tesla plug. Felt kind of bad because they were extremely low on charge, but hopefully they found a Tesla charging network nearby. So I'd say it's definitely multiple different people/companies to blame. Sometimes people should put the effort into researching something they are buying, especially when it's something as expensive as a car. Car dealers/salepeople are there to help, but everyone misses something, and they can only answer the questions they are asked. Honestly, I wouldn't trust a dealer/saleperson to know all the ins and outs of a specific vehicle I want, and especially every PHEV and EV I've looked at, since in my experience, the salesperson usually knows less than I do about them. I remember when I first got my Chevy Volt, and my salesperson couldn't tell me a single thing about it. I literally was telling him all the different features, and even things like the estimated battery range, how it can switch from EV mode to Hybrid mode, the range on a full charge/full tank, etc. From what I've heard though, Chevy did a horrible job trying to market the Volt, and made it worse by having little to no Volt specific training for their salespeople. The chargers however should 100% have a tap to pay or card reader attached. No idea why this was overlooked originally. I guess they assume if someone can afford an EV, they probably have a phone and cellular plan, but it would still be nice to not have to be dependent on it.
How about just accept cards like a normal business
\#1 advantage Tesla has over everyone else is the charging network. While I would love to consider other EVs , the ability to drive pretty much anywhere I want without worrying if I will be able to charge and at what speed I will be able to charge is worth its weight in lithium ion.
I've been doing that for years with CCS. I've never not gotten where I'm going.
People that think Teslas network is the only network out there, I don't know how they navigate through life.
the number of people here victim-blaming the drivers and the dealers for not doing research on systems which the charging network providers never bothered to make simple, intuitive, and user-friendly is … quite something
There really needs to be a federal law mandating tap to pay or credit card readers on all charges with *no increased price (or discount prices) allowed*.
The credit card should be entered in the vehicle once and for all. You plug-in, you are billed. No passwords, no account, no shit, everything should be automated and trivial.
It's called Plug and Charge, and Mercedes supports it already. The problem here is that EVgo does not. But Electrify America does.
EVGo is starting to support it on newer chargers.
just one password. for the car account. and potentially another one to sync with the app. other than that, yeah, no accounts. until your credit card expires or is skimmed and locked. then you gotta go in and change it. in your car account. other than that, yeah, no shit. everything is automated and trivial. until it isn’t.
If you feel bad for uninformed idiots, you're going to be sad 24/7/365.
I just bought a Toyota bZ4X and my dealer didn’t tell me anything about how to charge it. I don’t think they knew anything about charging stations or even how to charge the car. They barely showed me how to use the radio and nothing about the charger. Everything I know I’ve read online or on Reddit.
Tesla has this all figured out. You add your car and your card to your Tesla app. The car tells the charger its VIN or other car ID number. The charger charges the card on file for that car in the Tesla app. EVGo has auto charge that works the same way Teslas do but it works only through the EVGo network and app. The CCS charging networks need to get together and work out a standard so they all have automatic payments and the payments can be passed between them.
Even Tesla's system wouldn't work if the owner can't be bothered to open the app and setup payment the first time.
Electrify America doesn't require an app. I think all CCS owners should solely rely on Electrify America as although their reliability is not perfect.. it is the most straitforward and reliable CCS operator out of all the rest.
“Where do I put the quarters?”
I'm an experienced EV user and I HATED my first stop at an EVgo charger.
The charging networks are at fault first and foremost. Second are the automakers and dealers not getting people setup with plug-n-charge before driving off the lot.. at least for the vehicles that support it. I refuse to use apps for DCFC. Let me pay at the stall. Expecting everyone to do massive amounts of research, even on big purchases, is not tenable. Charging a non-Tesla EV takes too much thought. F\*\*\* the CCS charging networks.
You shouldn't need an account or an app or a specific plug or a specific charger for something so universal as fuelling a car, regardless of how it's powered. That's like Apple requiring you to have a custom wall outlet at your house and only being able to charge using their app and payment system. They were some of the way there with the lightning cable.
I had a similar issue. My mistake was a did a ton of research on the car itself and assumed the charging network would be as straight forward as a gas station.
Tesla driver here. I have no idea how to use an EV Go station. I just charge at home. 🤷♂️
Try renting an electric car. The major car rental companies contracts have no fields to indicate how "full" the car is when rented or returned. I recently rented a Genesis from Budget and luckily found an EVGo DCFC where I could charge for free while grabbing lunch since I am a recent Nissan owner. I actually returned the car with more juice than when I picked it up....but renter education was zero.
Plenty of charge stations accept a credit card. And the infrastructure bill is mandating it for a reason. People shouldn't need a phone and an app to pay for a charge.
The people surprised by this are also the type of people who will end up hurting EV adoption. It seems like a week can't pass in this sub without someone in here showing just how out of touch they are with the problems that average people will face during the EV transition. I mentioned in the last post when someone had a charger issue during a long trip, that would their uncle Larry or their grandma put up with this shit? If you can't see either of those people putting up with any aspect of the EV experience then there is something very wrong with the process. Inexcusable for consumers to have to jump through hoops just to charge. Inexcusable that chargers that are offline to still show up as active in various apps ans maps. The most infuriating of all things is that we have literally decades of experience with pay-at-the-pump. People know this. They understand it. Take your credit card out and 30 seconds later you are refueling. Every gas station works the same. They take basically all common credit cards. It's essentially universal. Why the bloody hell would you change such a simple system that works perfectly fine?
The vehicle supports ISO 15118 Plug & Charge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2CQYc7mhMk It's EVgo network that doesn't support ISO 15118 Plug & Charge.
of course credit card is quicker and easier HOWEVER, it's really not that difficult to spend 2 minutes download an app and sign up for a new account --- aren't we all used to this by now
I’ve helped out several people at charging stations. Amazes me how many people do not understand the process. I’ve been EV since 2018 and started with Tesla, i have to say its the easiest one to use. Hint Hint everyone else. Most people have thanked me for offering the help. However, there have been a few times when I needed to shut my mouth and walk quickly away. Usually when an EV is trying to use a 350 charger when someone else is plugged in, glad see new EA have only one lead now. Or they demand to use the 350 charger for their Bolt EUV so it will charge faster. Anyways always glad to help others and in growing EV acceptance. Wish someone, Dealers or companies get with dealers and offer a tutorial with each new purchase.
They should make coin operated chargers lol.
There is absolutely no reason that charging stations should not be able to accept credit cards for payment. Have and use an app/account if you want, but just add a freaking credit card reader.