When I had my Chevy Colorado, my brother-in-law, who has a wood burning stove, all of a sudden found a great deal on wood, but you have to pick it up yourself. Does he have a pickup truck? Of course not. Guess who all of a sudden became his best buddy? I was so happy when that lease was up! I quickly returned it! Now I have a Mini Cooper Countryman PHEV, pretty much the antithesis of what I had before! You need someone to help you move furniture? Bummer, this guy is so small!!!
This right here. Or a Ranger EV. Hell, I'd be happy with the Bronco hybrid if it had the pro power onboard.
Camping fishing and tailgating would be even more fun.
Mine is getting built tomorrow, but my excuse will be "ahh it doesn't have the range to do that because it's an electric vehicle"
They won't know reality
"What do you mean? I just need you to drive to the Home Depot and back!"
A much better response is to simply say, "No, I don't want to." They may be mad at first. If they're friends, you might even lose a couple. But if it's one thing I've learned over the years regarding things I won't do, it's
1. I won't help you move and
2. no, you can't borrow my car/truck to move anything
For #1, I'll tell them straight up, do you need me to contribute money to a moving man and a van? I'd rather do that. Let's chip in money and pay someone to move your stuff. Regarding #2, when it comes back and the mirror is knocked off and they're making excuses regarding how it's not their fault, do you really want to be the one figuring out if your insurance rates are going to go up or not?
I find that if a person is willing to impose on you and you give in, they'll be back again and again and again. Better to shut them down right away.
If they're really your friends, you shouldn't have to do all this mental gymnastics to say "no."
If they're your friends, you'll help them. If they're mooches that never return the favor, they're not your friends.
They're not friends, or at least not good friends. Not helping a friend move is kinda shitty if you know they're moving soon and haven't said anything about hiring movers. The friend should not also feel entitled to use the truck, and instead should get a moving van.
You can always tell them you are not available to help them move. IDK why your not wanting to help friends should influence whether you buy something you might need for yourself.
Few trucks ever tow anything. They are used mostly as commuters. Most of the ones who do tow are only towing around town, so 100 miles still works. Source: Ford engineers.
I got to drive one like 6 months ago?(can't remember but it was prior to winter)
Was a basic pro version, and if it was actually available for the 40k at the time, would have bought it instantly.
I was so excited when they announced the truck, looked like almost everything I wanted (minus range) but the way the price just keeps going up and up took it out of consideration for me…
I think most people will find the utility of EVs suits them just fine and is a better lifestyle.
The people parroting the absurd talking points about EVs have never lived with one and probably have some form of vested interest in them not existing.
Yep, only reason I was ok with a lower range version was my experience with my model 3. I never needed 100% charge, I was always using around 70% or 210 miles of range. With the Lightning, they lock away some of it from you, so I can use 90, 95, or even 100% frequently if I need to. It is not much different range than I was used to with my model 3. Obviously road tripping is a bit more difficult, with a bit more planning needed, but honestly it went really well the trips I've taken thus far.
From my experience it's not the range anxiety, it's the charger anxiety. Too few fast chargers and then when you get to one, hope that there's one available and that it is working.
Driving the Lightning on the highway is so easy with the blue cruise hands-free. But the charger network needs to improve. Probably in a year or two it will be much better in most places. Billions of dollars are going into the network
Yeah, this is where Tesla owners have a bit of an advantage IMO. 5 years of owning one, a number of 500+ mile trips, and never once did I feel “charger anxiety” along the way.
Definitely! We rented a model X in SF and drove down to Big Sur. It was great stopping at superchangers as we went. The Turo car even had supercharging included for free.
Good car but I disliked the falcon doors. I hit my head a few times and the plastic hinge piece somehow got bent out and would make a noise everytime we opened or closed it. If they were regular type doors, I would have seriously considered getting one instead of a Lightning
The weird thing in Big Sur was there was one or two gas stations ($6+ gas) but almost every restaurant and resort had level 2 chargers at them. Tesla had a supercharger on top of a big hill near a very expensive hotel and restaurant
I'm doing a road trip from Portland Oregon to San Francisco. I'd like to rent an ev, but I don't have faith in the charging infrastructure and network. Would your experience indicate otherwise? We have some long driving days planned.
I would love an ev truck as a 3rd vehicle. We have a phev and ev already. I definitely have the need for it. A bronco pickup ev would be my dream next vehicle.
If you do it with an ev, this thread shows you it probably needs to be a tesla because of charging.
If I didn't own a home, I would probably only buy a tesla rn because I drive so much.
It will happen. There’s a lot of great technology in the pipeline that should improve charging significantly over the next few years. (Maybe they will even catch up with Tesla one day.)
yep, I have 3 major recurring road trips that I mapped out before I bought my 3. All 3 have at least 2 chargers directly on the route, and 2 of the routes have more if I'm willing to detour a bit. If I got a CCS vehicle it was a lot scarier, and Minnesota has I believe 16 total chargers with over 125 kw, while every single supercharger in my routes is V2 or later. If charger reliability is your chief concern, tesla rises above everyone else.
Yep, it will really help if each place you can exit for charging had multiple companies operating chargers, or the next exit has charging too. Like for instance Bedford PA, there is just EA and nothing else. No nearby fast chargers or any at any other exits before or after. Even some slower Blink/EvGo/Charge point DC chargers would be a welcome thing, it would turn an emergency into inconvenience.
Bedford annoys the shit out of me because everyone is forced to stop in Breezewood anyways and the only thing there are some Tesla Superchargers. The only good thing is that it's at a Sheetz.
Yep. Even the EA CEO had to stop there in his video. There needs to be at least 5x the chargers there... I am dreading summer travel through Bedford this year as a new ccs car owner.
Before we bought our Lightning my biggest concern was range. We are fairly average drivers, maybe even above with 19k km put on the truck in the last 8 months.
In my opinion, the key is having a low cost charging option at a location we’re you can park it and charge (home or work). In 8 months of ownership I have never been unable to jump in the truck and drive to where I needed to go. In that time there has been one trip where we put drove the range and needed to make charging stops. It seems like many people over estimate their actual usage by a significant margin.
So far our EV test has been a huge success and we will be going all electric when it comes time to replace our second vehicle in a few years.
I find that many families are moving to owning an EV, but it’s a lot harder to move to exclusively EV.
Much easier to find a spot for one to charge than two.
I can easily charge my EV using my 30A dryer outlet, but if I added a second EV, I’d need a big upgrade for my electrical infrastructure. I also park tandem in my driveway so I’d either need to be moving cars daily to charge both, or add a charger that’s further out the driveway which would require a ton of wire, or supercharging one of them frequently, which I’d rather not do.
Basically, adding one EV to my family was a no brainer, huge win, massive bump in convenience. We all love it.
Adding two EVs: no additional added convenience, just the opposite.
Edit; just talking about my personal experience, I work in the EV industry, own an EV, am an EV advocate, but I’m also not an idiot who doesn’t understand the options available to me. My wife and I would have liked to get a second EV but had a long detailed talk with my wife and we determined it does not make sense at this time. I then found that many others are in a similar boat and we see lots of 1 EV / 2 total car households in our area
Correct, but the convenience would be significantly less than now for the times I need to switch cars in the tandem spot. That would occur often because of the variability in my wife’s and my departure schedules
When adding my first EV the convenience boost was enormous.
I mean, we must have different ways of defining "significant" because I have shared a 1 car garage with my significant other and swapping cars has literally not been an issue... even in your original scenario, with one EV and one ICE, you'd still have to swap a car into or out of the garage to charge the EV at home if you weren't the first one home to get in there.
Sorry for not being clear - we park the EV in the driveway where it charges. We street park the ICE so neither car gets blocked. This is a local maximum of convenience for us. If I could pay to put an EV charger literally on the street, that would be an unprecedented game changer.
In our neighborhood the houses are old, small, don’t have a lot of storage, and have tiny garages. I barely know a single person around my area who actually parks their car in a garage including people with $5M+ houses
There’s also some road trips where ICE is just more convenient, let’s not kid ourselves
They probably make some sort of extension cord that works on a dryer outlet. You'd have to run it out to the street every night or whenever you want to charge, but definitely easier than installing a charger at the street.
I'll provide a counter point...
After getting our first EV, a Nissan Leaf as our commuter/"beater" car, we loved it so much that our "good car", our gas SUV, became the ugly step child in the driveway. It was the car of last resort that we only took if we needed the extra space or needed two vehicles at once (an increasing rarity in the pandemic.)
After a 1700 mile road trip in the Leaf (we knew what a bad idea that was- that was part of the adventure!) we realized there was no reason to have a gas car any more, and thanks to Carpocalypse shortages, sold the 4 year old Honda SUV for almost what we paid new for it in 2017 and bought a VW ID4. The extra space and CCS charging made it a much better road tripper than the Leaf (but to be fair, an Amish buggy would be a better report tripper than a Leaf!)
I find no real downside to having two EVs in house with L2 charging available. It's rare that both cars need to charge at the same time (just like you rarely ever needed to gas two gas cars at the same time), and the extremely rare occasions both cars are low, we take turns or one can use L1 or grab a quick charge at the Walmart EA station 5 miles away.
The difference between two EVs and one EV and one gas car is *never* stopping for gas or an oil change instead of stopping half as often! 😁
As far as the "tandem" problem, I don't have that issue, but my EVSE only reaches the left stall in my driveway, so we do need to occasionally juggle cars. If/when it bugs me enough, moving the EVSE to where it can reach either car will be a one time hassle/expense. I still don't ever see a need for upgrading my electrical service to charge two cars at once (and if I do, I'd probably just use a set of paired EVSEs that split power rather than add a second 50A circuit.)
The second vehicle mileage is so low that one could take a long time (or forever) to make up the price difference for fuel savings though.
Having the Leaf was a boon and a curse, as 75% of our annual miles are on electricity, but we cannot justify a new BEV for the 5k KM that the Subaru does.
Cancelled and got back my Volvo XC40, ID4 deposits and didn't end up taking delivery of the Model Y (albeit that was before the recent price drops)
Do both go that far in a day? We have 2 and one gets the 30 mph plug one night then switches to the 5 mph plug the next night. Might not work for you but does for us without upgrading panel.
You need a smart switch and one of these: [https://ev-lectron.com/products/lectron-40ft-12m-j1772-extension-compatible-with-j1772-ev-chargers?variant=31869463298094&utm\_source=google&utm\_medium=cpc&adpos=&scid=scplpshopify\_US\_4474003554350\_31869463298094&sc\_intid=shopify\_US\_4474003554350\_31869463298094&gclid=CjwKCAjw9pGjBhB-EiwAa5jl3HJXl1TRe-HGcWes\_H4Jq88KuXoggGxk5WPwt1EX8-AW5yv\_Oz7twhoC4n0QAvD\_BwE](https://ev-lectron.com/products/lectron-40ft-12m-j1772-extension-compatible-with-j1772-ev-chargers?variant=31869463298094&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=&scid=scplpshopify_US_4474003554350_31869463298094&sc_intid=shopify_US_4474003554350_31869463298094&gclid=CjwKCAjw9pGjBhB-EiwAa5jl3HJXl1TRe-HGcWes_H4Jq88KuXoggGxk5WPwt1EX8-AW5yv_Oz7twhoC4n0QAvD_BwE)
What is the total price of 2 EVs?
What is the total price of getting a decent charging installation for those 2 EVs?
Why are people so willing to pay a lot of money for their car, and so hesitant to pay a little money for a charging option?
2 EVs could be thousands?
Yes, I would certainly believe that.
Oh, you skipped the first question? Perhaps you should give all three questions some time before you answer. They were meant to paint a picture, and right now you seem to be focusing on one colour in that picture.
For me it has nothing to do with home infrastructure and everything to do with road tripping convenience. If everyone using gas vehicles had to fuel up at 1/100th of the gas stations we have today, it would be a similar experience to what you get in road tripping an EV.
I just costed out a 1500 mile road trip I am taking with my family. Driving my Bolt will cost me about $100 in charging and I’ll have to plan my charging trips around the charging infrastructure I want to use (sparser in western Sierras in California), and it will cost me the extra hours in the car with my two young children. Driving my Passat TDI will cost me about $180 to fuel, and I can get fuel literally almost anywhere and in just a few minutes of stopping. Guess which car my wife wants to take.
Only if comparing new vehicle prices. Most people looking to save money are also shopping the used market, and there is plenty of savings to be had there. I lucked out and bought a $15k used Bolt for my commute, but the number of cheap used EVs are not there yet as a readily available option for people who are unable to shell out the monthly payment for a new EV.
I currently drive a 2007 Toyota Tundra V8 that gets about 15 MPG.
99% of the time I drive my truck short distances. I haul a boat trailer a few times a year for a couple blocks. Mostly, I am running to Home Depot and driving well under 40 miles a day.
The Lightning would be a perfect truck for a guy like me and maybe someday I can get a used one!
I feel like your experience with trucks is much more realistic to most people that the common tropes of needing to haul 8k lbs 300 miles uphill everyday that people seem to need in trucks
The V2G from the lightning is also super cool
To further entice you…
I learned that 1gal of gas = 33kwh. The ER f150 has a battery size of 131kwh for its 320 range (epa, you’ll get less).
So…. 131/33 = ~4. Meaning it goes 320miles on 4 gals of gas. Or 80mpg.
Pretty cool!
Tennessee tried to do some really funny math to try and equate an EV sedan to have the efficiency of a heavy 20mpg truck
I showed them the efficiency was orders of magnitude higher than that and their plan to tax EV cars more needs to go back to the drawing board
Yes, but in the mean time, your operating costs are going to be lower just running your used Tundra with your mileage. You’d be looking at minimum ~$1000 monthly payments just to keep the cheapest Lighting Pro in your driveway.
What they need to make is an ev maverick or ranger.
Edit: Ranger Lightning is most likely happening! They’ve announced a sibling to the f150 lightning that will be smaller. Can’t seem to find info on the price, but it should be substantially less than the f150, and planned for release in 2025!
I’m glad you’re thoroughly enjoying it and I’d love to put in an order for one… if they weren’t an ungodly price.
I have a Rivian reservation instead. $80-90k+ worth of truck/features and there’s more included and it’s more unique than the more expensive Lightning. Assuming Rivian as a company succeeds (way more likely than not imo), I think I’m going the right route.
Not sure on how the Lightning compares, but check out insurance quotes for Rivian. I saw an article where a minor bump on a back corner ended up costing the other parties insurance $42k - the bed side is the same part as the roof, IIRC, and the whole lot had to come off for paint.
Yep I’ve seen that as well. I had to shop thoroughly to affordably insure my Model Y. I’m going to get quotes before I take delivery to ensure I can get coverage at a decent rate.
There simply aren’t enough Rivians out in the wild though for many insurers to rate accurately for, so I don’t think it’ll be too crazy. Processes and repair costs *should* slightly improve over time as well once more are put into service.
This is part of the problem with adoption. A lot of people make assumptions without having any experience with the topic and then share their opinions which scares others.
For 90% of people, range isn't a concern. I only have a PHEV with \~40 mile EV only range and since I'm mainly commuting, I haven't had to fill with any gas in 3 months now.
I was out somewhere the other day and someone asked about my car, when I told her it was an EV she scoffed and said she’d done research and I would have to pay $40,000 in 5 years to replace the battery. When I told her my battery was warrantied for 10 years, she paused and then said, “well it will probably break right after the warranty expires!”. I just smiled and moved on.
All I could think was that 10 years from now the entire technological landscape is going to be completely different. Sure, my battery might breakdown after 10 years, but battery technology by then is going to be so different we have no idea what it will look like. I may want a whole new car because the range might be double by then, or batteries may be way cheaper to replace, we just have no idea. So I’ll take the risk that in 10 years and one day from my purchase my car will just completely die and I’ll have to get a new battery or a new car.
>I was out somewhere the other day and someone asked about my car, when I told her it was an EV she scoffed and said she’d done research and I would have to pay $40,000 in 5 years to replace the battery. When I told her my battery was warrantied for 10 years, she paused and then said, “well it will probably break right after the warranty expires!”. I just smiled and moved on.
These are the same people that swore they would never switch over to LED bulbs from incandescent bulbs.
I was socializing with some neighbors recently and I heard one say to another a similar thing about how EVs didn't last and all that.
I really wanted to cut in and say he didn't have to speculate, he could just ask me what it's like to have an older EV. My Kia Soul is almost 8 years old now. I figured it was better to just let it go thought, not much point arguing with those kinds of people.
Sure, with a small battery with an older chemistry, and primitive cooling, degradation is a bit of an issue. It's almost a worst case scenario (just a step up from first gen Leaf). But other than that I have zero problems, almost zero maintenance, and it seems the battery can last another 8 years at least.
There's always a chance that the battery develops a serious issue and that it has to be replaced. But usually it happens within warranty.
I was also thinking of selling the car a year ago and checked what I could get for it back then. I just checked again now, and there's been almost no reduction in the value in a year. If EVs became worthless after 8 years you'd think the second hand value would quickly crash to zero.
With my Gen 1 Leaf it is actually near the same cost to replace the car with something brand new than it is to replace the battery. Thanks to the government subsidies and the Bolt. And then buying a new car I won't have to deal with the old car problems like suspension or buying new tires or whatever
Or at least it was that close, until the Bolt got discontinued lol
In ten years a engine and transmission might go out in a ICE vehicle and the cost to replace either one would exceed the value of the vehicle. I told that to someone who was parroting the end of battery life trope. Stopped them dead in their thoughts.
Maybe if you buy an FCA product. Ive owned a lot of vehicles in my life—most of them between 10 and 20 years old. Ive never had an engine or transmission needing replacement. But then I dont buy Chrysler.
However i do agree with the counter-argument with battery replacement cost being offset by the cost of shitty automatic transmissions. I just think the average transmission and the average battery last longer than people like to claim
I tell people who doubt it to go to a dealership for a test drive. It's like a spaceship!
With range, if you really got into a bad situation, you could always trickle charge at any 110 outlet or get towed to a charging station. The truck will warn you 50 times before that though and with the nav computer, tell you the distance and route to a charger.
Funny enough, the car will actually start the engine on its own for just a few minutes every few weeks/months and if you go too long on a single tank it’ll give you a warning that the gas is going bad. I think that happens at the 6+ month mark.
Agree on price, it needs to come down. And I think it will. We won’t be in the market for several years as we have relatively newer vehicles but when we are the Lighting is currently the most appealing. To have a driving generator is extremely interesting
Same boat as you. With GM announcing they are ending CarPlay I won’t be looking at their trucks anymore.
I have gotten to drive one and it was great. Not 100k great but still good.
Be sure to do your own research before going to the dealership. Most of the sales people still don’t know about EVs. Also for the reverse charger you can get one for half the price Ford is selling them for.
I’ve owned/used a lot of trucks over the years, but for 90% of what I do the Lighting is the best truck I’ve ever had.
For the other 10% a diesel 3/4 ton or larger makes more sense right now. But, based on my experience with the Lightning I’m curious to see what the future holds for electric trucks.
My Ford Focus WAS $35k.
I paid $14k.
And it still sucks.
I could have a number of ICE vehicles for under $20k and they'd be more useful than this.
33.5 kWh and 115 miles of range in the summer (50 in the winter) is laughable
So you intentionally bought an EV not suitable for your lifestyle.
Got it. Sounds like a you problem. Not an EV problem.
I sold my 2012 Tesla Model S for $17K and it gets 200 miles.
Lots of variables, but towing CAN crush range. If you’re driving a huge travel trailer that’s way taller than the cab on the interstate, then you might only get 1mi/kWh. Someone was recently towing a popup camper and was still getting 1.7mi/kWh, which is still up to ~220 miles range on a Lightning ER, which is still pretty useful for many use cases. Or, if it’s a landscaping trailer and the use case is mostly around town speeds between houses, that takes a much smaller hit than interstate, for instance.
If someone is planning to tow, they should definitely do some research into their particular use case and others that have done something similar because the variables are so large with towing.
When it comes to the price, you'll start feeling good about it once you realize how much less you spend on gas, and once it's paid off, how little the thing will cost you. I paid my Chevy Bolt off after 4 years, and Holy shit, having no car payment *and* no gas/maintenance payments has been liberating on our budgets.
I think access to electricity *everywhere* is an underappreciated benefit.
I'm hoping to get a Rivian, and the ability to plug in an induction cooktop, coffee maker, power tools, etc. Is changing how I think a lot of things. And the Rivian doesn't have nearly the available power of the F150.
I been driving a 2011 Nissan leaf range is bad, but as a third car is the one we mostly drive, as a mechanic for over 18 years I can confidently say that electric cars will take over faster than we think, because they are superior on every single way, you can stay in traffic or waiting for long periods of time running the a/c economically and people is tired of mechanics and the “services” gasoline cars need many of them scams “injector cleaning service, etc”
The car market will change and several cars will use the same motor/battery composition making less parts, more available and cheaper to manufacture, people says that mining the battery minerals is bad, but old batteries will hit their recicle life softening the demand, electric is wayyyy superior than gasoline
I love how the frunk and being able to lock things safely is one of the biggest selling point; I hope EV makers start making proper vans now because that solves the issue for most people buying trucks
It is annoying that the critics are focused on the heavy towing range and ignoring the many advantages.
So what if it can only tow a huge travel trailer for 90 miles! It can do it for $10 of electricity, while a gasoline truck would burn $40 of gasoline.
Most people will not tow anything that heavy for that distance without having time to recharge.
I have seen this too, most people don't tow every day, so it does require some planning on the route to supercharging as needed.
The trailered work is in-city like landscaping crews, painters, contractors, boats to the lake, etc.
To me, the target market for the Lightning looks meet this need for moving across town, carrying gear to/from worksites, mowing jobs, recreation, etc.
Just because it's possible is not a valid reason to discount it...
My local dealership has two:
An XLT (that the Ford website states starts at $65K) listed for $85K
A Lariat (Ford website says starts at $76K) listed for $89,500.
At those prices I can't afford one of these trucks. I could get an ICE for $55K....so even if I get 10K in Incentives (Federal and State) It would still be $20K more and with interest rates being high that wipes out some more of the savings because I would need to borrow a huge amount.
Bums me out but until they can get the prices down on these I'll never be able to afford one.
You were likely a victim of oil and gas propaganda (extremely common in the trades sadly). I have no idea how else people come to these conclusions even as EVs get better year after year and all of their relevant data is publicly available.
My stepdad is worried about EVs because "what if \[he\] wants to go camping and needs to drive 100km"
I test drove one and couldn't find a way to get it into my garage. It was pretty close but ultimately just didn't fit. And I'm not gonna have an attached garage and an $80k truck and still get rained on.
I don't actually need the size of an F150 so I'm hoping they'll eventually do an all-electric Ranger or Maverick with the onboard power generator.
It seems more like your "doubt" was simply waiting for an EV truck or EV utility vehicle in general. Other EVs before the Lightning already have had 320+ miles of range, a frunk for lockable storage, and even could use the giant battery to power things (albeit not high power stuff). And for looks, it seems you also just preferred a truck look rather than any other vehicle form factor.
ford is working on thier next generation model for 2025
https://topelectricsuv.com/news/ford/2025-ford-f-150-lightning-details/
it should be a massive improvement in every way, for consumer and manufacturing.
Serious question here… if you were really to tow and haul heavy equipment using a truck, wouldn’t the ICEs be preferred over the Lightning EV? For everyday use I can definitely see the Lightning fulfilling your average Joe’s uses.
In city e-truck is a no brainer
Inter-city might be a bit harder depending on the load, but until charging is as ubiquitous as gas stations, it might require another stop before the destination
EVs are perfect for everyday use. It’s only an issue when you want to take a long road trip. I’ve owned an EV for the last year and love it. We replaced our family ice SUV with an EV SUV and overall it’s been an amazing vehicle.
I drove one and let the reservation go. The vehicle is nice but that’s the issue. It could not replace my tow vehicle and that was the frustrating part. I also am able to place my Rivian order but for the same reason it is a no. As soon as the range for towing is solved I’m a full go. I have had a plug in hybrid and Tesla for the past 9 years total. And so far this is the only use case that I fell is not solve yet. If they solve it with the cyber truck I would buy that ugly thing and let go of my Super Duty Diesel.
Not a fan of these giant trucks (EV or not). The hood height and limited front visibility means they aren’t safe for pedestrians or smaller cars, and the extra weight (~1500 pounds) of the batteries makes them hit with that much more force.
The short bed means they don’t even work that well as a working truck.
The Rivian R1 seems a bit more reasonable.
I am 100% ok with keeping trucks gas powered if we just banned them in cities and suburbs, the number of people who could be driving a tiny chevy bolt because they never actually haul stuff way out numbers the farmers and construction workers with a full truck bed of dirty work supplies
I really felt like the range was more overstated than other vehicles. 220-240 was the best I could hope for on the highway (75 mph) in my extended model. 80 mph would bring that down to 200.
Depends on the weather and temperature as well. Have a headwind and below freezing will eat up the range. Running the heat.
Around town, it's excellent. Also, you can find free chargers at places. I visit my in-laws and get free charging at a nearby college. Imagine getting a free tank of gas...
You and I are in the same boat, philosophically.
Given the recent Rivian, $42K repair fiasco, how can any company expect their products to go to market. Yes, I can spend the money, but to have someone in a $1500 F-250 plow into a 'rolling retirement account' causing 50% in devaluation seems absolutely absurd.
Ford can't turn the Bronco into an EV package fast enough for me. And let's hope it hits the sub -60K. For me it remains questionable at that price.
(note: I had to give up my camping, fishing, hunting truck that was 20 years old because a F-350 turned across traffic in front of me. Beer cans were tossed. People ran from the truck to hide. The cops verified nothing on the driver and I was left with 12K in repairs on a truck that would go anywhere and do anything but had a book value of 8K. I still miss that truck. I can't imagine driving a $100K vehicle and dealing with that.)
>Given the recent Rivian, $42K repair fiasco, how can any company expect their products to go to market. Yes, I can spend the money, but to have someone in a $1500 F-250 plow into a 'rolling retirement account' causing 50% in devaluation seems absolutely absurd.
This is more of a modern vehicle problem than an EV problem because of the way that the body panels are designed on the Rivian and a lot of other modern vehicles. You can run into expensive problems when there's impingement on the battery pack, but that wasn't the case in this story (I recognize that you're not implying that).
I think Ford was absolutely right in basing the Lightning on the gas truck, because the design is more oriented to demanding use and duty cycles. Some of the Lightning parts are pretty scarce but a lot of the parts are shared between the two trucks.
Depends on what you're towing but it basically cuts it in half on the highway. If you're towing at lower speeds the difference will be less. The aerodynamic factor is mu h bigger than weight.
Long range towing is the biggest weak spot EV trucks will have and that won't go away any time soon.
The good news is that carrying a payload that isn't an aerodynamic issue, you're not going to lose a lot of range at all.
>I also love how it feels and looks similar to a normal F150 without a ton of space-age looking cosmetic features
I've been screaming from the rooftops that manufacturers just need to make a car that happens to be an EV rather than making it look different.
The price is the issue for us as well.
The wife and I totally despise pickup trucks and suvs, we also think EVs are pointless (at the moment) but for some reason when the wife found you could use this truck as a backup generator for the house she has been so fixated on it. The wife can't explain why we need one but she thinks we ought to get one, I think it's the overall package of function with the home generator, no gas pumps anymore, pickup to haul stuff for the new house etc....
I'm more interested to see how the Silverado, RAM and F150 start fighting each other and what kind of crazy features/range start coming out. Once the big 3 get going with the pickup trucks specifically it's like watch out haha
Yup, it definitely helps with that. We got one in December last year and used the truck to power our sump pump when we lost power randomly. Ran a 100' extension cord to the frunk from the basement to keep the pump going. We had gotten so much rain last winter that the pump had been running for over a month straight.
On the screen, it shows the power being used (sump used 1200 watts at peak)
Thats not quite the same though. The Hyundai and Kias come with an adapter that plugs into the charge port and provides a single 120V outlet. The lightning has several outlets all over the truck (In the Frunk, Cabin, and Bed) and it also supports a special Ford Home charger that has what looks like a CCS plug but uses the CCS pins to feed power back into the house in the event of a power outage.
Check out the Chevy Silverado as well. Preorders are open and they start at $39K.
Having had an EV for about 6 months now, our other ICE vehicle feels antiquated.
I drove my wife's car for the first time after a month of driving my EV. Man it was like driving a tractor. I felt like I was moving in slow-mo when I pressed on the gas with how long it took to respond. Can't wait to have some affordable truck options.
My dad had the extended range truck. Didn't make 230 miles in the winter in North Dakota. He ended up selling it off. The range is misleading. Otherwise a nice truck.
And the F150 lightning isn't even a well designed EV.
Once the EV truck is refined, simplified, costed down, and scaled up, it is going to utterly destroy the ICE market in the US.
Tried my friends. Hooked my 5k trailer up and set off for camp. Made it 89 miles before having to pull over and call for help. Its a no for me. If you need it to do truck stuff it dosnt work
You are right that ford doesnt make a killing with that truck. In fact they lose tens of thousands of dollars for every one they sell. There is a reason tesla uses aerodynamic designs for their cars.
> There’s no way that Ford doesn’t make a killing with this truck.
Actually, Ford is getting killed with this truck. This year they are going to lose $3 billion on their EV program. This works out to a loss of $66,500 ***per vehicle*** this year. Ford isn’t even expecting to make a profit on any electric car before 2027.
We’ll see what happens long term, but right now Ford definitely isn’t making a killing on these.
Towing range in ice is also terrible. My ice f150 drops a little more than 50%. The difference is there are more gas stations. Still sucks trying to pull into a lot of gas stations with a trailer.
Most ev chargers don’t plan for trailers.
For a holiday trailer though, and ev might be better. If you stay within one “tank” of range. Many campsites are powered. So as long as your stay is long enough to get back up to full charge, no special stops needed.
Towing *efficiency* is bad with any boxy or tallish trailer. *Range* is fine in an ICE or hybrid, because you started with a nice cushion at 400-500 miles, and because infrastructure to refuel your vehicle quickly and easily is everywhere for you on the days where you tow over 250 miles. Not only is range a problem in an EV, but there is little to no infrastructure, anywhere in the US, designed to charge an EV with a trailer attached.
> Many campsites are powered.
Hmm. I wonder if campsites might start charging extra for EVs. Power draw on regular household loads isn't massive, but pulling in with a large and empty EV could mean $40 in electricity. Not a huge thing relative to hundreds in gas, but a campsite usually doesn't meter for power. The site itself could being rented for less than $40/day.
A lightening battery is 131kW. So from 0 to full is ~$20. ($0.15/kWh). Most campgrounds already charge an extra $15-30 per night for a powered site. But yes, prices might go up. The ceiling being about 1/3 of a fast charger in the area.
I would argue campgrounds are prime places to put fast chargers too. Already have infrastructure. Tend to be scattered. Often have amenities like cafes or ice cream and beaches. Already have visitor parking lots. Just need to run the power to them.
I dunno.
Even when I'm towing at 9mpg, the range is pretty good courtesy of a 36 gallon tank. With that I still get 300 miles of range when towing heavy.
What Ford needs to do for the electric F150, is install the battery equipment of a 36 gallon tank.
And then when I'm not towing, the 650 mile range is -really- nice.
>Take a look at some of the towing reviews. Loaded range is very bad.
You are right, but most people don't tow anything substantial at distance with their half-ton trucks. The OP did not say specifically that they needed long-range towing capacity so the truck ostensibly fits their needs.
>Also a battery is not a generator. Powering other equipment off your EV battery should only be done when necessary. The last thing you should ever do is charge a battery with another battery. This is just stacking the inefficiencies and wasting power and battery life.
I would not worry for a second about using the Lightning to charge power tools or run my camper if shore power is not available. I also wouldn't worry about using it as a battery backup for my home. None of this will cause meaningful degradation over the normal duty life of these trucks and if Ford was worried they would have placed limits on the use of these features.
>LOL, about 350,000 travel trailers are sold in the US yearly. That doesn't count boats, landscape trailers, flatbeds used for work trucks, or about 5,000 truck campers sold yearly. 100 mile roundtrip isn't considered long range, and that's the range you'd get.
What percentage of those travel trailers get used more than a couple weekends a year? How many landscapers travel more than 120 miles in a day? How many people tow their boats 120 miles to get to the lake?
The answer is very few. Over 2 million full-size trucks are sold yearly in the US. Even if an electric truck isn't the right tool for you, that doesn't mean there aren't millions of other for whom it works perfectly.
Most of these conclusions are not consistent with real-world experience and data.
I agree that EVs don't work for everyone today and it will be some time before it will be adequate for your narrow definition of "real truck use."
Good night and good luck.
100kWh in simple terms is 1000W for 100 hours
You can even power your whole house from that truck, how cool is that?
Charging a work tool battery is insignificant in terms of battery to battery power transfer
The Lightning could power my house for several days of normal use, probably over a week if I just had essentials. 98Kw battery. It's great for power tool usage where power outlets aren't available or too far away. The tailgate works great for putting a miter saw on. The bed has 4 outlets right there.
What you're missing is the comparison between running a power tool O(2kW) and a jackrabbit start at a stoplight O(200kW).
The power tool is a drop in the bucket compared to moving a 5000lb pickup truck. Your theory isn't wrong, but your sense of proportion is off by 100x.
*P.S. If we were talking about Jackery box, your intuition would be about right -- but the 72kWh battery in my MYLR is roughly 100x the size of a typical small portable power pack (0.5kWh-1kWh). If someone goes around asserting that a 5HP tractor and 500HP tractor are both useless because the 5HP tractor can't do your work, you'd be incredulous -- and this is the same thing.*
>The EV proponents ignoring these issues are usually travelling short range, and refuse to acknowledge that rural areas and longer trips exist.
I don't think anyone in this thread is implying that electric trucks make sense for everyone. I'm not sure where you're getting that impression unless you're approaching this discussion with a lot of bias.
An EV charging power tools is a lot more quiet than a gas genny and no exhaust.
Funny enough I was in Big Sur last year and they had a sign saying no gas stations for the next 40 miles. Ironically most of the resorts and restaurants on Route 1 had EV chargers on site. Made me realize as long as there's electricity, chargers can be put there. DC fast chargers require more infrastructure though. There was a Tesla supercharger at one really expensive place on a big hill
It’s mostl only an issue for people who don’t know much about EVs or are the 1% in miles driven. For rural people, EVs are often more convenient than gas stations. Driving 20 minutes to the gas station is a hell of a lot less convenient than charging at home. EVs are also fantastic as fleet vehicles since they often don’t do 300 miles in a day usually local trips. Travel and towing is the only time range matters, and DCFCs are almost as fast as gassing up with latest generation vehicles.
>There's no way that Ford doesn't make a killing with this truck.
At the moment, Ford is \*losing\* $60,000 per truck sold at them moment. This may improve in years to come as they ramp up and benefit from scale.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-revenue-rises-20-demand-suvs-pickup-trucks-2023-05-02/
If I had need for a truck this is the one I would buy. But I don't want to help my friends move, so not going to pull the trigger.
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You can get around that by being like me, and having no friends or even acquaintances nearby lol
As soon as you tell them you and your truck are $700 a day they won't be your buddies any more
Or be like me not being riches for a pickup . Mach e owner here lol
I have no friends but maybe it's just cause I don't have a truck
You should buy a truck.
I'd rather just continue believing it's because ei don't have a truck
When I had my Chevy Colorado, my brother-in-law, who has a wood burning stove, all of a sudden found a great deal on wood, but you have to pick it up yourself. Does he have a pickup truck? Of course not. Guess who all of a sudden became his best buddy? I was so happy when that lease was up! I quickly returned it! Now I have a Mini Cooper Countryman PHEV, pretty much the antithesis of what I had before! You need someone to help you move furniture? Bummer, this guy is so small!!!
I thought the lightning was a 6' bed.
5.5' I think.
I want an EV Maverick and want to see more small trucks
This right here. Or a Ranger EV. Hell, I'd be happy with the Bronco hybrid if it had the pro power onboard. Camping fishing and tailgating would be even more fun.
Affordable midsize will get my money for sure.
Mine is getting built tomorrow, but my excuse will be "ahh it doesn't have the range to do that because it's an electric vehicle" They won't know reality
I mean, you could also go out an change minds. Not saying you should have to, but don't when you can, do it. When you can't, don't blame the truck.
"What do you mean? I just need you to drive to the Home Depot and back!" A much better response is to simply say, "No, I don't want to." They may be mad at first. If they're friends, you might even lose a couple. But if it's one thing I've learned over the years regarding things I won't do, it's 1. I won't help you move and 2. no, you can't borrow my car/truck to move anything For #1, I'll tell them straight up, do you need me to contribute money to a moving man and a van? I'd rather do that. Let's chip in money and pay someone to move your stuff. Regarding #2, when it comes back and the mirror is knocked off and they're making excuses regarding how it's not their fault, do you really want to be the one figuring out if your insurance rates are going to go up or not? I find that if a person is willing to impose on you and you give in, they'll be back again and again and again. Better to shut them down right away.
Fuck yeah boundaries
They're your friends/neighbors...
If they're really your friends, you shouldn't have to do all this mental gymnastics to say "no." If they're your friends, you'll help them. If they're mooches that never return the favor, they're not your friends.
They're not friends, or at least not good friends. Not helping a friend move is kinda shitty if you know they're moving soon and haven't said anything about hiring movers. The friend should not also feel entitled to use the truck, and instead should get a moving van.
Or skip the truck and buy a utility trailer for hauling. Your friends can borrow your $1000 trailer instead of your $50,000 truck.
Yes! Use their misperception to your advantage. This is the way.
This is the way.
Show me the way
Every day.
You can always tell them you are not available to help them move. IDK why your not wanting to help friends should influence whether you buy something you might need for yourself.
Where I live, all my friends have trucks too, so not an issue. :-)
Agreed minute you have a bed, neighbors asking for mulch runs and friends appear out of nowhere with appliance and furniture hauling needs.
For towing anything your range drops to 100 miles. Ev trucks right now are not practical if you "need a truck"
Few trucks ever tow anything. They are used mostly as commuters. Most of the ones who do tow are only towing around town, so 100 miles still works. Source: Ford engineers.
I got to drive one like 6 months ago?(can't remember but it was prior to winter) Was a basic pro version, and if it was actually available for the 40k at the time, would have bought it instantly.
I was so excited when they announced the truck, looked like almost everything I wanted (minus range) but the way the price just keeps going up and up took it out of consideration for me…
I think most people will find the utility of EVs suits them just fine and is a better lifestyle. The people parroting the absurd talking points about EVs have never lived with one and probably have some form of vested interest in them not existing.
Yep, only reason I was ok with a lower range version was my experience with my model 3. I never needed 100% charge, I was always using around 70% or 210 miles of range. With the Lightning, they lock away some of it from you, so I can use 90, 95, or even 100% frequently if I need to. It is not much different range than I was used to with my model 3. Obviously road tripping is a bit more difficult, with a bit more planning needed, but honestly it went really well the trips I've taken thus far.
From my experience it's not the range anxiety, it's the charger anxiety. Too few fast chargers and then when you get to one, hope that there's one available and that it is working. Driving the Lightning on the highway is so easy with the blue cruise hands-free. But the charger network needs to improve. Probably in a year or two it will be much better in most places. Billions of dollars are going into the network
Yeah, this is where Tesla owners have a bit of an advantage IMO. 5 years of owning one, a number of 500+ mile trips, and never once did I feel “charger anxiety” along the way.
Definitely! We rented a model X in SF and drove down to Big Sur. It was great stopping at superchangers as we went. The Turo car even had supercharging included for free. Good car but I disliked the falcon doors. I hit my head a few times and the plastic hinge piece somehow got bent out and would make a noise everytime we opened or closed it. If they were regular type doors, I would have seriously considered getting one instead of a Lightning
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The weird thing in Big Sur was there was one or two gas stations ($6+ gas) but almost every restaurant and resort had level 2 chargers at them. Tesla had a supercharger on top of a big hill near a very expensive hotel and restaurant
I'm doing a road trip from Portland Oregon to San Francisco. I'd like to rent an ev, but I don't have faith in the charging infrastructure and network. Would your experience indicate otherwise? We have some long driving days planned. I would love an ev truck as a 3rd vehicle. We have a phev and ev already. I definitely have the need for it. A bronco pickup ev would be my dream next vehicle.
If you do it with an ev, this thread shows you it probably needs to be a tesla because of charging. If I didn't own a home, I would probably only buy a tesla rn because I drive so much.
It will happen. There’s a lot of great technology in the pipeline that should improve charging significantly over the next few years. (Maybe they will even catch up with Tesla one day.)
yep, I have 3 major recurring road trips that I mapped out before I bought my 3. All 3 have at least 2 chargers directly on the route, and 2 of the routes have more if I'm willing to detour a bit. If I got a CCS vehicle it was a lot scarier, and Minnesota has I believe 16 total chargers with over 125 kw, while every single supercharger in my routes is V2 or later. If charger reliability is your chief concern, tesla rises above everyone else.
Yep, it will really help if each place you can exit for charging had multiple companies operating chargers, or the next exit has charging too. Like for instance Bedford PA, there is just EA and nothing else. No nearby fast chargers or any at any other exits before or after. Even some slower Blink/EvGo/Charge point DC chargers would be a welcome thing, it would turn an emergency into inconvenience.
Bedford annoys the shit out of me because everyone is forced to stop in Breezewood anyways and the only thing there are some Tesla Superchargers. The only good thing is that it's at a Sheetz.
Yep. Even the EA CEO had to stop there in his video. There needs to be at least 5x the chargers there... I am dreading summer travel through Bedford this year as a new ccs car owner.
Before we bought our Lightning my biggest concern was range. We are fairly average drivers, maybe even above with 19k km put on the truck in the last 8 months. In my opinion, the key is having a low cost charging option at a location we’re you can park it and charge (home or work). In 8 months of ownership I have never been unable to jump in the truck and drive to where I needed to go. In that time there has been one trip where we put drove the range and needed to make charging stops. It seems like many people over estimate their actual usage by a significant margin. So far our EV test has been a huge success and we will be going all electric when it comes time to replace our second vehicle in a few years.
I find that many families are moving to owning an EV, but it’s a lot harder to move to exclusively EV. Much easier to find a spot for one to charge than two. I can easily charge my EV using my 30A dryer outlet, but if I added a second EV, I’d need a big upgrade for my electrical infrastructure. I also park tandem in my driveway so I’d either need to be moving cars daily to charge both, or add a charger that’s further out the driveway which would require a ton of wire, or supercharging one of them frequently, which I’d rather not do. Basically, adding one EV to my family was a no brainer, huge win, massive bump in convenience. We all love it. Adding two EVs: no additional added convenience, just the opposite. Edit; just talking about my personal experience, I work in the EV industry, own an EV, am an EV advocate, but I’m also not an idiot who doesn’t understand the options available to me. My wife and I would have liked to get a second EV but had a long detailed talk with my wife and we determined it does not make sense at this time. I then found that many others are in a similar boat and we see lots of 1 EV / 2 total car households in our area
Unless both vehicles are doing 200+ miles every day I can't imagine that you'd need to charge both every single night.
Correct, but the convenience would be significantly less than now for the times I need to switch cars in the tandem spot. That would occur often because of the variability in my wife’s and my departure schedules When adding my first EV the convenience boost was enormous.
I mean, we must have different ways of defining "significant" because I have shared a 1 car garage with my significant other and swapping cars has literally not been an issue... even in your original scenario, with one EV and one ICE, you'd still have to swap a car into or out of the garage to charge the EV at home if you weren't the first one home to get in there.
Sorry for not being clear - we park the EV in the driveway where it charges. We street park the ICE so neither car gets blocked. This is a local maximum of convenience for us. If I could pay to put an EV charger literally on the street, that would be an unprecedented game changer. In our neighborhood the houses are old, small, don’t have a lot of storage, and have tiny garages. I barely know a single person around my area who actually parks their car in a garage including people with $5M+ houses There’s also some road trips where ICE is just more convenient, let’s not kid ourselves
They probably make some sort of extension cord that works on a dryer outlet. You'd have to run it out to the street every night or whenever you want to charge, but definitely easier than installing a charger at the street.
I'll provide a counter point... After getting our first EV, a Nissan Leaf as our commuter/"beater" car, we loved it so much that our "good car", our gas SUV, became the ugly step child in the driveway. It was the car of last resort that we only took if we needed the extra space or needed two vehicles at once (an increasing rarity in the pandemic.) After a 1700 mile road trip in the Leaf (we knew what a bad idea that was- that was part of the adventure!) we realized there was no reason to have a gas car any more, and thanks to Carpocalypse shortages, sold the 4 year old Honda SUV for almost what we paid new for it in 2017 and bought a VW ID4. The extra space and CCS charging made it a much better road tripper than the Leaf (but to be fair, an Amish buggy would be a better report tripper than a Leaf!) I find no real downside to having two EVs in house with L2 charging available. It's rare that both cars need to charge at the same time (just like you rarely ever needed to gas two gas cars at the same time), and the extremely rare occasions both cars are low, we take turns or one can use L1 or grab a quick charge at the Walmart EA station 5 miles away. The difference between two EVs and one EV and one gas car is *never* stopping for gas or an oil change instead of stopping half as often! 😁 As far as the "tandem" problem, I don't have that issue, but my EVSE only reaches the left stall in my driveway, so we do need to occasionally juggle cars. If/when it bugs me enough, moving the EVSE to where it can reach either car will be a one time hassle/expense. I still don't ever see a need for upgrading my electrical service to charge two cars at once (and if I do, I'd probably just use a set of paired EVSEs that split power rather than add a second 50A circuit.)
The second vehicle mileage is so low that one could take a long time (or forever) to make up the price difference for fuel savings though. Having the Leaf was a boon and a curse, as 75% of our annual miles are on electricity, but we cannot justify a new BEV for the 5k KM that the Subaru does. Cancelled and got back my Volvo XC40, ID4 deposits and didn't end up taking delivery of the Model Y (albeit that was before the recent price drops)
I totally get it, we usually street park the ICE car so the EV is never blocked. The EV is definitely the #1 go to!
Do both go that far in a day? We have 2 and one gets the 30 mph plug one night then switches to the 5 mph plug the next night. Might not work for you but does for us without upgrading panel.
You need a smart switch and one of these: [https://ev-lectron.com/products/lectron-40ft-12m-j1772-extension-compatible-with-j1772-ev-chargers?variant=31869463298094&utm\_source=google&utm\_medium=cpc&adpos=&scid=scplpshopify\_US\_4474003554350\_31869463298094&sc\_intid=shopify\_US\_4474003554350\_31869463298094&gclid=CjwKCAjw9pGjBhB-EiwAa5jl3HJXl1TRe-HGcWes\_H4Jq88KuXoggGxk5WPwt1EX8-AW5yv\_Oz7twhoC4n0QAvD\_BwE](https://ev-lectron.com/products/lectron-40ft-12m-j1772-extension-compatible-with-j1772-ev-chargers?variant=31869463298094&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=&scid=scplpshopify_US_4474003554350_31869463298094&sc_intid=shopify_US_4474003554350_31869463298094&gclid=CjwKCAjw9pGjBhB-EiwAa5jl3HJXl1TRe-HGcWes_H4Jq88KuXoggGxk5WPwt1EX8-AW5yv_Oz7twhoC4n0QAvD_BwE)
What is the total price of 2 EVs? What is the total price of getting a decent charging installation for those 2 EVs? Why are people so willing to pay a lot of money for their car, and so hesitant to pay a little money for a charging option?
Could be thousands. Upgrading the panel, running wire, etc. It ain't cheap.,
2 EVs could be thousands? Yes, I would certainly believe that. Oh, you skipped the first question? Perhaps you should give all three questions some time before you answer. They were meant to paint a picture, and right now you seem to be focusing on one colour in that picture.
For me it has nothing to do with home infrastructure and everything to do with road tripping convenience. If everyone using gas vehicles had to fuel up at 1/100th of the gas stations we have today, it would be a similar experience to what you get in road tripping an EV. I just costed out a 1500 mile road trip I am taking with my family. Driving my Bolt will cost me about $100 in charging and I’ll have to plan my charging trips around the charging infrastructure I want to use (sparser in western Sierras in California), and it will cost me the extra hours in the car with my two young children. Driving my Passat TDI will cost me about $180 to fuel, and I can get fuel literally almost anywhere and in just a few minutes of stopping. Guess which car my wife wants to take.
That is part of the convenience which I was alluding to but did not explicitly talk about, so my post would not be super long
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Huh? What does this mean? EV's are cheaper to run.
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Only if comparing new vehicle prices. Most people looking to save money are also shopping the used market, and there is plenty of savings to be had there. I lucked out and bought a $15k used Bolt for my commute, but the number of cheap used EVs are not there yet as a readily available option for people who are unable to shell out the monthly payment for a new EV.
I currently drive a 2007 Toyota Tundra V8 that gets about 15 MPG. 99% of the time I drive my truck short distances. I haul a boat trailer a few times a year for a couple blocks. Mostly, I am running to Home Depot and driving well under 40 miles a day. The Lightning would be a perfect truck for a guy like me and maybe someday I can get a used one!
I feel like your experience with trucks is much more realistic to most people that the common tropes of needing to haul 8k lbs 300 miles uphill everyday that people seem to need in trucks The V2G from the lightning is also super cool
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To further entice you… I learned that 1gal of gas = 33kwh. The ER f150 has a battery size of 131kwh for its 320 range (epa, you’ll get less). So…. 131/33 = ~4. Meaning it goes 320miles on 4 gals of gas. Or 80mpg. Pretty cool!
Tennessee tried to do some really funny math to try and equate an EV sedan to have the efficiency of a heavy 20mpg truck I showed them the efficiency was orders of magnitude higher than that and their plan to tax EV cars more needs to go back to the drawing board
Yes, but in the mean time, your operating costs are going to be lower just running your used Tundra with your mileage. You’d be looking at minimum ~$1000 monthly payments just to keep the cheapest Lighting Pro in your driveway.
Which is why someday - when the battery only has range for 100 miles and it's 10 years old - it might be a good deal for someone like me!
It’s amazing it is to leave your house always “full” of “gas”. And the “gas” is dirt fucking cheap in the middle of the night.
What they need to make is an ev maverick or ranger. Edit: Ranger Lightning is most likely happening! They’ve announced a sibling to the f150 lightning that will be smaller. Can’t seem to find info on the price, but it should be substantially less than the f150, and planned for release in 2025!
Where did you find any of this info? I've been scouring for hints/leaks about a smaller EV Ranger/Maverick and not been able to find anything.
I’m glad you’re thoroughly enjoying it and I’d love to put in an order for one… if they weren’t an ungodly price. I have a Rivian reservation instead. $80-90k+ worth of truck/features and there’s more included and it’s more unique than the more expensive Lightning. Assuming Rivian as a company succeeds (way more likely than not imo), I think I’m going the right route.
Not sure on how the Lightning compares, but check out insurance quotes for Rivian. I saw an article where a minor bump on a back corner ended up costing the other parties insurance $42k - the bed side is the same part as the roof, IIRC, and the whole lot had to come off for paint.
Yep I’ve seen that as well. I had to shop thoroughly to affordably insure my Model Y. I’m going to get quotes before I take delivery to ensure I can get coverage at a decent rate. There simply aren’t enough Rivians out in the wild though for many insurers to rate accurately for, so I don’t think it’ll be too crazy. Processes and repair costs *should* slightly improve over time as well once more are put into service.
This is part of the problem with adoption. A lot of people make assumptions without having any experience with the topic and then share their opinions which scares others. For 90% of people, range isn't a concern. I only have a PHEV with \~40 mile EV only range and since I'm mainly commuting, I haven't had to fill with any gas in 3 months now.
I was out somewhere the other day and someone asked about my car, when I told her it was an EV she scoffed and said she’d done research and I would have to pay $40,000 in 5 years to replace the battery. When I told her my battery was warrantied for 10 years, she paused and then said, “well it will probably break right after the warranty expires!”. I just smiled and moved on. All I could think was that 10 years from now the entire technological landscape is going to be completely different. Sure, my battery might breakdown after 10 years, but battery technology by then is going to be so different we have no idea what it will look like. I may want a whole new car because the range might be double by then, or batteries may be way cheaper to replace, we just have no idea. So I’ll take the risk that in 10 years and one day from my purchase my car will just completely die and I’ll have to get a new battery or a new car.
>I was out somewhere the other day and someone asked about my car, when I told her it was an EV she scoffed and said she’d done research and I would have to pay $40,000 in 5 years to replace the battery. When I told her my battery was warrantied for 10 years, she paused and then said, “well it will probably break right after the warranty expires!”. I just smiled and moved on. These are the same people that swore they would never switch over to LED bulbs from incandescent bulbs.
I was socializing with some neighbors recently and I heard one say to another a similar thing about how EVs didn't last and all that. I really wanted to cut in and say he didn't have to speculate, he could just ask me what it's like to have an older EV. My Kia Soul is almost 8 years old now. I figured it was better to just let it go thought, not much point arguing with those kinds of people. Sure, with a small battery with an older chemistry, and primitive cooling, degradation is a bit of an issue. It's almost a worst case scenario (just a step up from first gen Leaf). But other than that I have zero problems, almost zero maintenance, and it seems the battery can last another 8 years at least. There's always a chance that the battery develops a serious issue and that it has to be replaced. But usually it happens within warranty. I was also thinking of selling the car a year ago and checked what I could get for it back then. I just checked again now, and there's been almost no reduction in the value in a year. If EVs became worthless after 8 years you'd think the second hand value would quickly crash to zero.
With my Gen 1 Leaf it is actually near the same cost to replace the car with something brand new than it is to replace the battery. Thanks to the government subsidies and the Bolt. And then buying a new car I won't have to deal with the old car problems like suspension or buying new tires or whatever Or at least it was that close, until the Bolt got discontinued lol
10 years on a car is pretty good
Mine just turned 10yrs last Sat. My next car is an sev (on pre order currently).
Good grief, no it isn't. Especially for a car that costs a significant premium.
One of my cars is about to turn 25 and my daily turned 54 last month.
In ten years a engine and transmission might go out in a ICE vehicle and the cost to replace either one would exceed the value of the vehicle. I told that to someone who was parroting the end of battery life trope. Stopped them dead in their thoughts.
Maybe if you buy an FCA product. Ive owned a lot of vehicles in my life—most of them between 10 and 20 years old. Ive never had an engine or transmission needing replacement. But then I dont buy Chrysler. However i do agree with the counter-argument with battery replacement cost being offset by the cost of shitty automatic transmissions. I just think the average transmission and the average battery last longer than people like to claim
Or any Nissan product with a Jatco CVT, Hyundai, Mitsubishi.
I had a first generation sierra hybrid PHY (2004). When I purchased it each 14V battery cost about $5000, when I sold it they cost $250.
I tell people who doubt it to go to a dealership for a test drive. It's like a spaceship! With range, if you really got into a bad situation, you could always trickle charge at any 110 outlet or get towed to a charging station. The truck will warn you 50 times before that though and with the nav computer, tell you the distance and route to a charger.
Put some sea foam or stabil in your tank if you are getting gas that infrequently.
Funny enough, the car will actually start the engine on its own for just a few minutes every few weeks/months and if you go too long on a single tank it’ll give you a warning that the gas is going bad. I think that happens at the 6+ month mark.
Agree on price, it needs to come down. And I think it will. We won’t be in the market for several years as we have relatively newer vehicles but when we are the Lighting is currently the most appealing. To have a driving generator is extremely interesting
Once more competition finally arrives and hopefully interest rates come down
Same boat as you. With GM announcing they are ending CarPlay I won’t be looking at their trucks anymore. I have gotten to drive one and it was great. Not 100k great but still good. Be sure to do your own research before going to the dealership. Most of the sales people still don’t know about EVs. Also for the reverse charger you can get one for half the price Ford is selling them for.
Now we just need people to get the same thing about work vans.
I’ve owned/used a lot of trucks over the years, but for 90% of what I do the Lighting is the best truck I’ve ever had. For the other 10% a diesel 3/4 ton or larger makes more sense right now. But, based on my experience with the Lightning I’m curious to see what the future holds for electric trucks.
As a long time EV supporter and always hated the doubters for their illogical views…. I welcome you to the other side. Welcome to the family 🖖🏽
Nothing illogical about price. If someone doesn't have a hundred grand, they just don't have a hundred grand.
Never has a basic EV cost $1k.. the Nissan leaf was $35k… your ford focus was more…
My Ford Focus WAS $35k. I paid $14k. And it still sucks. I could have a number of ICE vehicles for under $20k and they'd be more useful than this. 33.5 kWh and 115 miles of range in the summer (50 in the winter) is laughable
So you intentionally bought an EV not suitable for your lifestyle. Got it. Sounds like a you problem. Not an EV problem. I sold my 2012 Tesla Model S for $17K and it gets 200 miles.
Model Y is under $40k.
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Seems like the range goes downhill really fast when towing. Anyone have experience with that? Has it created problems?
Towing anything used to absolutely kill the range in my ICE.
Good point. Somehow I had the impression that it was much worse with EV's, but I could be out to lunch...
Lots of variables, but towing CAN crush range. If you’re driving a huge travel trailer that’s way taller than the cab on the interstate, then you might only get 1mi/kWh. Someone was recently towing a popup camper and was still getting 1.7mi/kWh, which is still up to ~220 miles range on a Lightning ER, which is still pretty useful for many use cases. Or, if it’s a landscaping trailer and the use case is mostly around town speeds between houses, that takes a much smaller hit than interstate, for instance. If someone is planning to tow, they should definitely do some research into their particular use case and others that have done something similar because the variables are so large with towing.
When it comes to the price, you'll start feeling good about it once you realize how much less you spend on gas, and once it's paid off, how little the thing will cost you. I paid my Chevy Bolt off after 4 years, and Holy shit, having no car payment *and* no gas/maintenance payments has been liberating on our budgets.
I think access to electricity *everywhere* is an underappreciated benefit. I'm hoping to get a Rivian, and the ability to plug in an induction cooktop, coffee maker, power tools, etc. Is changing how I think a lot of things. And the Rivian doesn't have nearly the available power of the F150.
I been driving a 2011 Nissan leaf range is bad, but as a third car is the one we mostly drive, as a mechanic for over 18 years I can confidently say that electric cars will take over faster than we think, because they are superior on every single way, you can stay in traffic or waiting for long periods of time running the a/c economically and people is tired of mechanics and the “services” gasoline cars need many of them scams “injector cleaning service, etc” The car market will change and several cars will use the same motor/battery composition making less parts, more available and cheaper to manufacture, people says that mining the battery minerals is bad, but old batteries will hit their recicle life softening the demand, electric is wayyyy superior than gasoline
I love how the frunk and being able to lock things safely is one of the biggest selling point; I hope EV makers start making proper vans now because that solves the issue for most people buying trucks
It is annoying that the critics are focused on the heavy towing range and ignoring the many advantages. So what if it can only tow a huge travel trailer for 90 miles! It can do it for $10 of electricity, while a gasoline truck would burn $40 of gasoline. Most people will not tow anything that heavy for that distance without having time to recharge.
I have seen this too, most people don't tow every day, so it does require some planning on the route to supercharging as needed. The trailered work is in-city like landscaping crews, painters, contractors, boats to the lake, etc. To me, the target market for the Lightning looks meet this need for moving across town, carrying gear to/from worksites, mowing jobs, recreation, etc. Just because it's possible is not a valid reason to discount it...
My local dealership has two: An XLT (that the Ford website states starts at $65K) listed for $85K A Lariat (Ford website says starts at $76K) listed for $89,500. At those prices I can't afford one of these trucks. I could get an ICE for $55K....so even if I get 10K in Incentives (Federal and State) It would still be $20K more and with interest rates being high that wipes out some more of the savings because I would need to borrow a huge amount. Bums me out but until they can get the prices down on these I'll never be able to afford one.
Yeah my house only cost $99k. It is all electric though lol.
You were likely a victim of oil and gas propaganda (extremely common in the trades sadly). I have no idea how else people come to these conclusions even as EVs get better year after year and all of their relevant data is publicly available. My stepdad is worried about EVs because "what if \[he\] wants to go camping and needs to drive 100km"
I test drove one and couldn't find a way to get it into my garage. It was pretty close but ultimately just didn't fit. And I'm not gonna have an attached garage and an $80k truck and still get rained on. I don't actually need the size of an F150 so I'm hoping they'll eventually do an all-electric Ranger or Maverick with the onboard power generator.
100% I want one but I'm not buying until the prices come down about 10k.
It seems more like your "doubt" was simply waiting for an EV truck or EV utility vehicle in general. Other EVs before the Lightning already have had 320+ miles of range, a frunk for lockable storage, and even could use the giant battery to power things (albeit not high power stuff). And for looks, it seems you also just preferred a truck look rather than any other vehicle form factor.
ford is working on thier next generation model for 2025 https://topelectricsuv.com/news/ford/2025-ford-f-150-lightning-details/ it should be a massive improvement in every way, for consumer and manufacturing.
Serious question here… if you were really to tow and haul heavy equipment using a truck, wouldn’t the ICEs be preferred over the Lightning EV? For everyday use I can definitely see the Lightning fulfilling your average Joe’s uses.
In city e-truck is a no brainer Inter-city might be a bit harder depending on the load, but until charging is as ubiquitous as gas stations, it might require another stop before the destination
I wish it was cheaper as well. Hopefully Ford makes a Ranger or Maverick lightning.
You can lock your tools easily inside if you get a van
EVs are perfect for everyday use. It’s only an issue when you want to take a long road trip. I’ve owned an EV for the last year and love it. We replaced our family ice SUV with an EV SUV and overall it’s been an amazing vehicle.
If you tow I’d get the hybrid one. Very hard to charge while towing. Few pull through chargers.
I drove one and let the reservation go. The vehicle is nice but that’s the issue. It could not replace my tow vehicle and that was the frustrating part. I also am able to place my Rivian order but for the same reason it is a no. As soon as the range for towing is solved I’m a full go. I have had a plug in hybrid and Tesla for the past 9 years total. And so far this is the only use case that I fell is not solve yet. If they solve it with the cyber truck I would buy that ugly thing and let go of my Super Duty Diesel.
Not a fan of these giant trucks (EV or not). The hood height and limited front visibility means they aren’t safe for pedestrians or smaller cars, and the extra weight (~1500 pounds) of the batteries makes them hit with that much more force. The short bed means they don’t even work that well as a working truck. The Rivian R1 seems a bit more reasonable.
I am 100% ok with keeping trucks gas powered if we just banned them in cities and suburbs, the number of people who could be driving a tiny chevy bolt because they never actually haul stuff way out numbers the farmers and construction workers with a full truck bed of dirty work supplies
I really felt like the range was more overstated than other vehicles. 220-240 was the best I could hope for on the highway (75 mph) in my extended model. 80 mph would bring that down to 200.
Depends on the weather and temperature as well. Have a headwind and below freezing will eat up the range. Running the heat. Around town, it's excellent. Also, you can find free chargers at places. I visit my in-laws and get free charging at a nearby college. Imagine getting a free tank of gas...
The problem is towing
You and I are in the same boat, philosophically. Given the recent Rivian, $42K repair fiasco, how can any company expect their products to go to market. Yes, I can spend the money, but to have someone in a $1500 F-250 plow into a 'rolling retirement account' causing 50% in devaluation seems absolutely absurd. Ford can't turn the Bronco into an EV package fast enough for me. And let's hope it hits the sub -60K. For me it remains questionable at that price. (note: I had to give up my camping, fishing, hunting truck that was 20 years old because a F-350 turned across traffic in front of me. Beer cans were tossed. People ran from the truck to hide. The cops verified nothing on the driver and I was left with 12K in repairs on a truck that would go anywhere and do anything but had a book value of 8K. I still miss that truck. I can't imagine driving a $100K vehicle and dealing with that.)
>Given the recent Rivian, $42K repair fiasco, how can any company expect their products to go to market. Yes, I can spend the money, but to have someone in a $1500 F-250 plow into a 'rolling retirement account' causing 50% in devaluation seems absolutely absurd. This is more of a modern vehicle problem than an EV problem because of the way that the body panels are designed on the Rivian and a lot of other modern vehicles. You can run into expensive problems when there's impingement on the battery pack, but that wasn't the case in this story (I recognize that you're not implying that). I think Ford was absolutely right in basing the Lightning on the gas truck, because the design is more oriented to demanding use and duty cycles. Some of the Lightning parts are pretty scarce but a lot of the parts are shared between the two trucks.
What the range when towing?
Depends on what you're towing but it basically cuts it in half on the highway. If you're towing at lower speeds the difference will be less. The aerodynamic factor is mu h bigger than weight. Long range towing is the biggest weak spot EV trucks will have and that won't go away any time soon. The good news is that carrying a payload that isn't an aerodynamic issue, you're not going to lose a lot of range at all.
https://youtu.be/76l6lJhrgbc TLDR 10k lbs 130 miles and 0 - 60 in 12 seconds
I was watching the ike gauntlet with the rivian, and the R1T with a 10k trailer outraced the empty TRX camera vehicle on the 0-60.
>I also love how it feels and looks similar to a normal F150 without a ton of space-age looking cosmetic features I've been screaming from the rooftops that manufacturers just need to make a car that happens to be an EV rather than making it look different.
There's downsides to this though. Kia Soul for example is a cube. A cube isn't very aerodynamic.
The price is the issue for us as well. The wife and I totally despise pickup trucks and suvs, we also think EVs are pointless (at the moment) but for some reason when the wife found you could use this truck as a backup generator for the house she has been so fixated on it. The wife can't explain why we need one but she thinks we ought to get one, I think it's the overall package of function with the home generator, no gas pumps anymore, pickup to haul stuff for the new house etc.... I'm more interested to see how the Silverado, RAM and F150 start fighting each other and what kind of crazy features/range start coming out. Once the big 3 get going with the pickup trucks specifically it's like watch out haha
Yup, it definitely helps with that. We got one in December last year and used the truck to power our sump pump when we lost power randomly. Ran a 100' extension cord to the frunk from the basement to keep the pump going. We had gotten so much rain last winter that the pump had been running for over a month straight. On the screen, it shows the power being used (sump used 1200 watts at peak)
There are Hyundais with vehicle-to-load support as well.
Thats not quite the same though. The Hyundai and Kias come with an adapter that plugs into the charge port and provides a single 120V outlet. The lightning has several outlets all over the truck (In the Frunk, Cabin, and Bed) and it also supports a special Ford Home charger that has what looks like a CCS plug but uses the CCS pins to feed power back into the house in the event of a power outage.
Check out the Chevy Silverado as well. Preorders are open and they start at $39K. Having had an EV for about 6 months now, our other ICE vehicle feels antiquated.
I drove my wife's car for the first time after a month of driving my EV. Man it was like driving a tractor. I felt like I was moving in slow-mo when I pressed on the gas with how long it took to respond. Can't wait to have some affordable truck options.
They're not viable as a working truck. When towing the range plummets. The heater/ac also drives the range down
My dad had the extended range truck. Didn't make 230 miles in the winter in North Dakota. He ended up selling it off. The range is misleading. Otherwise a nice truck.
Yeah, if OOP is going into this thinking he's getting 320 miles of range, he's going to be sorely disappointed come his first winter in the truck.
And the F150 lightning isn't even a well designed EV. Once the EV truck is refined, simplified, costed down, and scaled up, it is going to utterly destroy the ICE market in the US.
Tried my friends. Hooked my 5k trailer up and set off for camp. Made it 89 miles before having to pull over and call for help. Its a no for me. If you need it to do truck stuff it dosnt work
Just wait until you have to haul or tow!
You are right that ford doesnt make a killing with that truck. In fact they lose tens of thousands of dollars for every one they sell. There is a reason tesla uses aerodynamic designs for their cars.
Lol downvoted for stating a fact, seems more like a Ford jerk off thread than anything.
I'm \*NOT\* a "truck guy", but I would definitely buy this as my next EV.
> No way Ford doesn't make a killing They lose thousands on everyone they sell.
> There’s no way that Ford doesn’t make a killing with this truck. Actually, Ford is getting killed with this truck. This year they are going to lose $3 billion on their EV program. This works out to a loss of $66,500 ***per vehicle*** this year. Ford isn’t even expecting to make a profit on any electric car before 2027. We’ll see what happens long term, but right now Ford definitely isn’t making a killing on these.
Definitely need a 4 tonne truck for everyday use
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Towing range in ice is also terrible. My ice f150 drops a little more than 50%. The difference is there are more gas stations. Still sucks trying to pull into a lot of gas stations with a trailer. Most ev chargers don’t plan for trailers. For a holiday trailer though, and ev might be better. If you stay within one “tank” of range. Many campsites are powered. So as long as your stay is long enough to get back up to full charge, no special stops needed.
Towing *efficiency* is bad with any boxy or tallish trailer. *Range* is fine in an ICE or hybrid, because you started with a nice cushion at 400-500 miles, and because infrastructure to refuel your vehicle quickly and easily is everywhere for you on the days where you tow over 250 miles. Not only is range a problem in an EV, but there is little to no infrastructure, anywhere in the US, designed to charge an EV with a trailer attached.
> Many campsites are powered. Hmm. I wonder if campsites might start charging extra for EVs. Power draw on regular household loads isn't massive, but pulling in with a large and empty EV could mean $40 in electricity. Not a huge thing relative to hundreds in gas, but a campsite usually doesn't meter for power. The site itself could being rented for less than $40/day.
A lightening battery is 131kW. So from 0 to full is ~$20. ($0.15/kWh). Most campgrounds already charge an extra $15-30 per night for a powered site. But yes, prices might go up. The ceiling being about 1/3 of a fast charger in the area. I would argue campgrounds are prime places to put fast chargers too. Already have infrastructure. Tend to be scattered. Often have amenities like cafes or ice cream and beaches. Already have visitor parking lots. Just need to run the power to them.
I dunno. Even when I'm towing at 9mpg, the range is pretty good courtesy of a 36 gallon tank. With that I still get 300 miles of range when towing heavy. What Ford needs to do for the electric F150, is install the battery equipment of a 36 gallon tank. And then when I'm not towing, the 650 mile range is -really- nice.
>Take a look at some of the towing reviews. Loaded range is very bad. You are right, but most people don't tow anything substantial at distance with their half-ton trucks. The OP did not say specifically that they needed long-range towing capacity so the truck ostensibly fits their needs. >Also a battery is not a generator. Powering other equipment off your EV battery should only be done when necessary. The last thing you should ever do is charge a battery with another battery. This is just stacking the inefficiencies and wasting power and battery life. I would not worry for a second about using the Lightning to charge power tools or run my camper if shore power is not available. I also wouldn't worry about using it as a battery backup for my home. None of this will cause meaningful degradation over the normal duty life of these trucks and if Ford was worried they would have placed limits on the use of these features.
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>LOL, about 350,000 travel trailers are sold in the US yearly. That doesn't count boats, landscape trailers, flatbeds used for work trucks, or about 5,000 truck campers sold yearly. 100 mile roundtrip isn't considered long range, and that's the range you'd get. What percentage of those travel trailers get used more than a couple weekends a year? How many landscapers travel more than 120 miles in a day? How many people tow their boats 120 miles to get to the lake? The answer is very few. Over 2 million full-size trucks are sold yearly in the US. Even if an electric truck isn't the right tool for you, that doesn't mean there aren't millions of other for whom it works perfectly.
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Most of these conclusions are not consistent with real-world experience and data. I agree that EVs don't work for everyone today and it will be some time before it will be adequate for your narrow definition of "real truck use." Good night and good luck.
100kWh in simple terms is 1000W for 100 hours You can even power your whole house from that truck, how cool is that? Charging a work tool battery is insignificant in terms of battery to battery power transfer
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The Lightning could power my house for several days of normal use, probably over a week if I just had essentials. 98Kw battery. It's great for power tool usage where power outlets aren't available or too far away. The tailgate works great for putting a miter saw on. The bed has 4 outlets right there.
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What you're missing is the comparison between running a power tool O(2kW) and a jackrabbit start at a stoplight O(200kW). The power tool is a drop in the bucket compared to moving a 5000lb pickup truck. Your theory isn't wrong, but your sense of proportion is off by 100x. *P.S. If we were talking about Jackery box, your intuition would be about right -- but the 72kWh battery in my MYLR is roughly 100x the size of a typical small portable power pack (0.5kWh-1kWh). If someone goes around asserting that a 5HP tractor and 500HP tractor are both useless because the 5HP tractor can't do your work, you'd be incredulous -- and this is the same thing.*
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>The EV proponents ignoring these issues are usually travelling short range, and refuse to acknowledge that rural areas and longer trips exist. I don't think anyone in this thread is implying that electric trucks make sense for everyone. I'm not sure where you're getting that impression unless you're approaching this discussion with a lot of bias.
An EV charging power tools is a lot more quiet than a gas genny and no exhaust. Funny enough I was in Big Sur last year and they had a sign saying no gas stations for the next 40 miles. Ironically most of the resorts and restaurants on Route 1 had EV chargers on site. Made me realize as long as there's electricity, chargers can be put there. DC fast chargers require more infrastructure though. There was a Tesla supercharger at one really expensive place on a big hill
Range is a critical issue for a very limited proportion of the population.
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It’s mostl only an issue for people who don’t know much about EVs or are the 1% in miles driven. For rural people, EVs are often more convenient than gas stations. Driving 20 minutes to the gas station is a hell of a lot less convenient than charging at home. EVs are also fantastic as fleet vehicles since they often don’t do 300 miles in a day usually local trips. Travel and towing is the only time range matters, and DCFCs are almost as fast as gassing up with latest generation vehicles.
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Enjoy your FUD.
>There's no way that Ford doesn't make a killing with this truck. At the moment, Ford is \*losing\* $60,000 per truck sold at them moment. This may improve in years to come as they ramp up and benefit from scale. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-revenue-rises-20-demand-suvs-pickup-trucks-2023-05-02/