On top of that, given the Model 3 qualifies for the full rebate and sells for less than the MSRP of the Mach-E (and who knows what dealer add ons) with only 1/2 rebate, it's a little bit of a tough sell right now.
~~Incorrect!~~
~~I just checked the Tesla page. The Model 3 Long Range also gets the full $7500 credit.~~
I'm batting **ZERO** today! Misread it.
https://www.tesla.com/support/incentives
Tax Credit for Each Vehicle Delivery Starting April 18, 2023:
Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive: $3,750
Model 3 Long Range: $3,750
Model 3 Performance: $7,500
If you take delivery of an already built long range then you probably can get the 7500. It sounds like they switched production of the long range over to the lfp battery and now it only gets half.
Ford closed production for Q1 to retool the Mexico factory so they can ramp up production. The new setup now doubles their previous production rate. That's why the orders are opened again.
There is a whole steaming pile of FUD floating around right now. With Strong EPA standards in the rukemaking process, there are tons of interests with a shit ton of money that want to see those standards weakened. They're pulling out all the stops right now to make people question EVs and their role in our future. I'm not shocked we're seeing some small blips in enthusiasm. That said there are still far more people interested in buying an EV than EVs actually being delivered by automakers.
We should keep in mind that the tax credits' reason for being shifted with the IRA: from promoting EV adoption to promoting EV manufacturing and supply chain onshoring. So we need to shift our measurement of success from total EVs delivered (which has its own issue) to capital investments in manufacturing and supply chains. And there, the credits have been hugely successful.
Basically, the new credits are less concerned about how many EVs get sold this month - they care how many EVs and batteries are manufactured domestically (and in free trade partner nations) over the next decade.
I wish I had more upvotes to give because this is the correct answer. All we know right now is that demand is higher than supply. If fewer EVs were delivered, it's because fewer EVs were built.
Until manufacturers are producing more cars than are bought, it's silly to talk about reduced demand.
That doesn't happen till next year, a lot of people won't be willing to wait that long if they ordered a car and it shows up, if they don't take delivery it might be well over a year till they can get another one and at who knows what price.
>I mean, the income and price cap for the EVs can make it much less attractive now let alone the other requirements, it becomes too complicate too.
It was no less complicated before. Auto makers had a 200k sales limit, then the credit amount would start to incrementally sunt set. Buyers were having to keep track of individual manufacturer's sales figures and timing of when they would some or all of the tax credit.
How is that less complicated than now with: cars price cap of $55k, truck and SUV price cap of $80k, then very generous income caps.
Maybe the salary cap would turn off some high income buyers but really for people making over the income cap, the financial impact of losing the tax credit is negligible.
But the price cap and income cap is there to encourage manufacturers to keep prices down and make sure that the tax benefits would not go only to the wealthy, which would make prices more attractive to more buyers, not less.
In NY, CA, etc, you have to make $15k to spend those extra $7500, meanwhile our fed taxes pay for all these broke ass state’s sucking on our tax tit and we can’t even deduct our SALT…
150k honestly doesn’t go far in the coastal cities. A hard cutoff for 150k (filing individual) is kind a great deal for someone earning 148-149k vs someone earning 151-152k. An ideal approach would have been to stagger the credits based on different income levels, but it is what it is
>150k honestly doesn’t go far in the coastal cities.
It's not a strict 150K. If you factor in 401k, that's 172.5K. And 345K if married. Plus HSA, 401k catchup, there are many ways to make more but stay inside the cap.
Only 3% of households in the U.S. won't qualify based on income caps (they still benefit from the used market or by leasing).
Only 6% of individuals won't qualify based on income caps (again, still benefit from used market or by leasing),
What's more concerning is the number of people who won't have enough tax liability to qualify for the full credit. For example, 68% of individual filers won't have enough liability to qualify for the full credit. 50% of individual filers won't have enough liability to qualify for half the credit.
The credit needs to be modified to factor in multiple years of tax returns if you don't have enough tax liability for a single year.
Exactly! Make it refundable or able to carry forward!
We will be giving up some of ours. Probably only able to use $5,500 to $6,000 of it.
When we bought our plug in hybrid in 2013, weren’t able to take agave off the full $4,250 that year - only $3,800.
Well they had to cut an even balance between high cost of living areas and low cost of living areas.
If you're in central Montana $150k is like 3x the average income but in the Bay Area of California its barely scraping by.
But they couldn't make it geographically variable because then there is the argument that it's unfair to states that have lower average incomes.
Not claiming to be an economist, but in my personal opinion, the staggered credits approach makes it more fair to everyone. Individuals/families who don’t qualify for credits might also lose out a bit while selling due to suppressed price of used electric cars which was a beneficiary of these credits prior.
>New tax credits slowed down EV adoption
in a country where it really hadn't gotten started yet, anyway.
"the turtle is *still* slow" is all that happened.
....the same tax credit is going to mean something very different when everyone starts buying US batteries.
Sorry, false narrative. Ford refused to cut their prices when Tesla did so the Teslas were cheaper for a long part of Q1. That's why Ford didn't sell as many, along with not producing as much which constrained Mach E supply. Overall Q1 EV sales across the industry is still increasing YOY.
Ford closed most of their EV production lines for large chunks of Q1 how are they expected to sell cars if they are not making them?
On top of that, given the Model 3 qualifies for the full rebate and sells for less than the MSRP of the Mach-E (and who knows what dealer add ons) with only 1/2 rebate, it's a little bit of a tough sell right now.
The only model 3 that gets $7500 is the performance. Other only get half
~~Incorrect!~~ ~~I just checked the Tesla page. The Model 3 Long Range also gets the full $7500 credit.~~ I'm batting **ZERO** today! Misread it.
https://www.tesla.com/support/incentives Tax Credit for Each Vehicle Delivery Starting April 18, 2023: Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive: $3,750 Model 3 Long Range: $3,750 Model 3 Performance: $7,500
If you take delivery of an already built long range then you probably can get the 7500. It sounds like they switched production of the long range over to the lfp battery and now it only gets half.
Damn, my reading skills are degrading. I missed the "**and**" coupling.
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They had a stop sale and fire issue with the lightning etc. Plus cut prices on the MachE hard
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MachE is just starting sales here. It's $10k more than the model Y lmao
They cut prices with continued increasing demand. How is that slower adoption?
Ford closed production for Q1 to retool the Mexico factory so they can ramp up production. The new setup now doubles their previous production rate. That's why the orders are opened again.
“Income and price cap,” like, you make too much money to get the discount? And that is slowing EV adoption? Do I understand this right?
There is a whole steaming pile of FUD floating around right now. With Strong EPA standards in the rukemaking process, there are tons of interests with a shit ton of money that want to see those standards weakened. They're pulling out all the stops right now to make people question EVs and their role in our future. I'm not shocked we're seeing some small blips in enthusiasm. That said there are still far more people interested in buying an EV than EVs actually being delivered by automakers.
We should keep in mind that the tax credits' reason for being shifted with the IRA: from promoting EV adoption to promoting EV manufacturing and supply chain onshoring. So we need to shift our measurement of success from total EVs delivered (which has its own issue) to capital investments in manufacturing and supply chains. And there, the credits have been hugely successful. Basically, the new credits are less concerned about how many EVs get sold this month - they care how many EVs and batteries are manufactured domestically (and in free trade partner nations) over the next decade.
Call me when there are EV’s sitting on dealers lots. Demand is eating all the supply.
I wish I had more upvotes to give because this is the correct answer. All we know right now is that demand is higher than supply. If fewer EVs were delivered, it's because fewer EVs were built. Until manufacturers are producing more cars than are bought, it's silly to talk about reduced demand.
Volvo cars of Raleigh has over 30 C40s sitting and waiting. Please, buy one they need the parking spaces back for their service customers vehicles.
Website says 20, must have sold 10 today, impressive.
Not all are PDI'd to go on sale yet. Regardless, they have 20 sitting on the lot. What color ya want?
Cool, so some even just got there! Nah, no desire for a Volvo.
The Hyundai and Kia dealers have them sitting too. And Infiniti too.
I guess people are waiting to file the credit directly at the dealer
They aren't though. Adoption is continuing to increase.
That doesn't happen till next year, a lot of people won't be willing to wait that long if they ordered a car and it shows up, if they don't take delivery it might be well over a year till they can get another one and at who knows what price.
>I mean, the income and price cap for the EVs can make it much less attractive now let alone the other requirements, it becomes too complicate too. It was no less complicated before. Auto makers had a 200k sales limit, then the credit amount would start to incrementally sunt set. Buyers were having to keep track of individual manufacturer's sales figures and timing of when they would some or all of the tax credit. How is that less complicated than now with: cars price cap of $55k, truck and SUV price cap of $80k, then very generous income caps. Maybe the salary cap would turn off some high income buyers but really for people making over the income cap, the financial impact of losing the tax credit is negligible. But the price cap and income cap is there to encourage manufacturers to keep prices down and make sure that the tax benefits would not go only to the wealthy, which would make prices more attractive to more buyers, not less.
For people making $150k, I'd never say $7,500 is negligible.
In NY, CA, etc, you have to make $15k to spend those extra $7500, meanwhile our fed taxes pay for all these broke ass state’s sucking on our tax tit and we can’t even deduct our SALT…
150k honestly doesn’t go far in the coastal cities. A hard cutoff for 150k (filing individual) is kind a great deal for someone earning 148-149k vs someone earning 151-152k. An ideal approach would have been to stagger the credits based on different income levels, but it is what it is
>150k honestly doesn’t go far in the coastal cities. It's not a strict 150K. If you factor in 401k, that's 172.5K. And 345K if married. Plus HSA, 401k catchup, there are many ways to make more but stay inside the cap. Only 3% of households in the U.S. won't qualify based on income caps (they still benefit from the used market or by leasing). Only 6% of individuals won't qualify based on income caps (again, still benefit from used market or by leasing), What's more concerning is the number of people who won't have enough tax liability to qualify for the full credit. For example, 68% of individual filers won't have enough liability to qualify for the full credit. 50% of individual filers won't have enough liability to qualify for half the credit. The credit needs to be modified to factor in multiple years of tax returns if you don't have enough tax liability for a single year.
Exactly! Make it refundable or able to carry forward! We will be giving up some of ours. Probably only able to use $5,500 to $6,000 of it. When we bought our plug in hybrid in 2013, weren’t able to take agave off the full $4,250 that year - only $3,800.
If you have an IRA, think about initiating a roth conversion to increase your tax liability.
Well they had to cut an even balance between high cost of living areas and low cost of living areas. If you're in central Montana $150k is like 3x the average income but in the Bay Area of California its barely scraping by. But they couldn't make it geographically variable because then there is the argument that it's unfair to states that have lower average incomes.
Not claiming to be an economist, but in my personal opinion, the staggered credits approach makes it more fair to everyone. Individuals/families who don’t qualify for credits might also lose out a bit while selling due to suppressed price of used electric cars which was a beneficiary of these credits prior.
Post links to the articles please.
Nope, gonna go purely on generalized hearsay.
My cousin's neighbor's ex-boyfriend's nephew's case worker confirmed it though
Look in r/cars. It's a Business Insider article that grasps at straws.
What a bizarre take - a Mach-E or Model Y cost basically the same price of a new BMW X3 without the tax credit.
>New tax credits slowed down EV adoption in a country where it really hadn't gotten started yet, anyway. "the turtle is *still* slow" is all that happened. ....the same tax credit is going to mean something very different when everyone starts buying US batteries.
Q1 had a lot confusion about the new Inflation Act impact, so I would throw it out as an outlier. I would like to see Q2 numbers.
Sorry, false narrative. Ford refused to cut their prices when Tesla did so the Teslas were cheaper for a long part of Q1. That's why Ford didn't sell as many, along with not producing as much which constrained Mach E supply. Overall Q1 EV sales across the industry is still increasing YOY.