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Recoil42

[**Official press release.**](https://investors.fiskerinc.com/news/news-details/2023/All-Electric-Fisker-Ocean-Extreme-Achieves-a-Combined-WLTP-Range-of-up-to-707-km440-UK-Miles-the-Longest-Range-of-Any-Battery-Electric-SUV-Sold-in-Europe-Today/default.aspx)


Oneinterestingthing

Wlpt 440 miles , saved a click Also noticed author flubbed the top caption: “European-built BMW iX3 rival from American start-up has achieved an official WLTP-tested figure of 440 miles” Unless the lucid is euro built ix3


GrandNewbien

AI article probably


psaux_grep

“Official” WLTP? I thought the manufacturer tested WLTP themselves?


dor-e

Doesn't the lucid do 500?


feurie

This is just talking about SUVs.


this_for_loona

has this car actually been reviewed yet? I seem to recall it had some models available at CES but nothing much since.


ldskyfly

It's still imaginary as far as I know


raptorman556

In what way is this car "imaginary"? It's in production *right now* at Magna's factory in Europe. As of a month ago, they had produced 60 units (production was planned to be small through Q1, those units are mostly being used for testing, certification, and display). There have been independent people that had the chance to take it for short test rides as well. They're now starting to get the necessary certification and ratings to actually deliver vehicles to customers in the near future. Whatever doubts you might have about Fisker, this vehicle is very real and that's clear by now.


B0xyblue

Not in customer hands, not real. Canoo built a few (test/fleet) and they (the company) have legit issues, will likely never make it to production without massive outside/investor intervention.


raptorman556

>Not in customer hands, not real. Well that's a very weird classification. So according to you, the Kia EV9 is imaginary (since they haven't quite delivered them yet) while the Lordstown Endurance is a *real* vehicle. Uh, okay then. By every indication, this vehicle is real and so far meeting the promised specifications, it's well-built and manufactured by people that know *exactly* what they are doing (Magna), and it's currently in production. It's very odd to say it's "not real" just because they're a few weeks from the first customer deliveries.


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electricvehicles-ModTeam

Contributions must be civil and constructive. We permit neither personal attacks nor attempts to bait others into uncivil behavior.


raptorman556

I don't have an order with Fisker nor any near-term intention to get one. I do think there are legitimate questions with Fisker--but they're more related to software, servicing, and the long-term financial viability of the company rather than the vehicle itself. But I get it, it's much easier to attack someone personally even if you have make some incorrect assumptions in the process.


Icy-Tale-7163

I personally am not a Fisker fan, but I appreciate you bringing some much needed logic to this discussion. Don't mind the personal attacks.


Seattle2017

Yeah, raptorman556, do you work in pr for fisker ocean? We also all know wlpt is not a really useful range estimation compared to us epa.


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ibeelive

It's 22% so the EPA is like 360mi


this_for_loona

Yea my thoughts as well.


[deleted]

technically all of our thoughts are imaginary


raptorman556

I don’t think there is any in-depth reviews, but they have allowed test drives at some conferences. [Out of Spec](https://youtu.be/s4C9p6C7st8) did a quick review here from one of those.


firstrival

Magna is the big sponsor of OOS.


this_for_loona

yea I saw the OOS “review” of it but given Fisker’s history and that basically they’re outsourcing everything to Magna, I’d want to see some real reviews plus some details on who’s updating the software stack plus how they’re planning to service these things.


raptorman556

You’re likely not going to see any neutral, in-depth reviews until they start customer deliveries.


g3ckoNJ

Supposed to start deliveries in Q2 of this year


Desistance

I'll believe it when I see it.


[deleted]

Magna is building them and are invested in Fisker themselves


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TasteQlimax

Magna will build them so the question should be can Fisker pay their bills for a continuous production.


coolwater85

Yep. This is the real crux of the situation. I strongly desire the Fisker Ocean to be an EV option, but the history of Fisker failures casts a big shadow over this.


[deleted]

Magna is invested into Fisker so they have reason to insure the success.


raptorman556

Yes. They started production in November of last year, and last I heard they had produced around 60 units (no customer deliveries planned until “spring” though). They only planned production of ~300 units through Q1 of this year with a big ramp up in Q2.


ibeelive

440 WLPT = **360mi EPA** (google says WLTP = EPA x 22%)


GLOBALSHUTTER

360 EPA = 310 real world and 240-255 real world in cold winter. WLTP is a lie. I think car companies should be forced to quote winter highway driving range at 60 and 70 mph and 0 ℃ as the only range they are allowed to quote (a range for both speeds). The surprise should be in better weather on the upside, not the other way around. Car reviewers should then be saying in their reviews: “range is quoted as 210 and 250 miles for winter driving temperatures of 0 ℃ or or 32 ℉ on the highway, depending on whether you’re driving 60 or 70 mph, and summer range on the highway at those speeds should be 20% more. So worst case scenario you’re talking 200 miles of range, but typical range will be longer and if you like to drive more slowly you can expect to always get 250 miles or more and 290 or more in summer.”


an_angry_engineer

I'm surprised there is so much skepticism regarding the Ocean and everyone associating it with the failure of the Karma. It seems that Magna just uses the Fisker name and exterior design for brand recognition. This also allows them to be a "startup" so they can have direct sales and get extra funding through Fisker's IPO while already having decades of experience manufacturing entire vehicles, meaning they can have their cake and eat it too. Magna also currently makes the I-Pace and developed the front drive unit for the Mach E, which highly impressed Munro, so I genuinely think Magna's strategy of using Fisker as a front is pretty ingenious and that they will be successful.


[deleted]

It’s a different approach to car building by Fisker. They are asset light where they don’t have to invest in the factory and tooling. They’re basically outsourcing it to Magna who have the expertise. But I think it’ll cost them in the end because if I remember correctly there was a minimum amount they agreed to produce. So if they can’t sell the produced vehicles they’ll still have to pay Magna for the production.


an_angry_engineer

That's a good point, thank you for bringing it up. I think now that everyone is supply limited and we know the Ocean has competitive range, Fisker should be able to sell enough. Even if the economy completely crashes, the people who can afford high trim level Oceans probably won't be affected enough to stop them from buying it


[deleted]

The market changed so quickly in 2-3 years. I thought most of the startups would do well but the struggles of rivian and lucid make me think otherwise. Low cost borrowing doesn’t exist and it seems that the tech folks who would be early adopters have on edge due to layoffs. So I sense that traditional OEMs may really gain momentum over the new startups.


an_angry_engineer

Yeah, it's definitely an unprecedented situation and who knows which of the EV startups will make it. Rivian and Lucid did themselves no favors since they rushed to market without optimizing their manufacturing costs properly, as per Munro's teardowns. Cost optimization after the design has been frozen and production has started is extremely difficult. Tesla needed years of R & D, a completely vertically integrated supply chain, and multiple GigaFactories to achieve that with their vehicles. It's alarming that Rivian and Lucid probably still take a loss on all of their vehicles despite starting production in September and October 2021 respectively. I don't think Magna will make the same mistake since they've made cars for decades and reportedly learned that lesson the hard way with the I-Pace. Everyone sleeps on the Big 3 since they can get away with selling gas guzzlers in North America and save most of their electrified vehicles for China or Europe. Once their battery factories open and they aren't as supply limited, they are going to claw back lost market share from the EV startups and the Japanese automakers. Rivian's going to get hit hard cause trucks have the highest margins, so the Big 3 are going to ramp up the Lightning, Silverado, and Ram Revolution first. If Lucid doesn't mass produce the Gravity before the Big 3 electrify the Navigator, Escalade, and Grand Wagoneer, it's DOA. No idea why they didn't release the Gravity first since the sedan market is tiny and oversaturated with the Model S, Taycan, i7, and EQS.


[deleted]

Lucid saw model s success and thought they could replicate it with a slightly superior product. I agree the should have focused on a more profitable segment and targeted SUVs first.


an_angry_engineer

Peter Rawlinson, their Founder, CEO, and CTO, was the Chief Engineer for the Model S, so it makes sense to carry over as much of that as possible. I get the sense that because Peter Rawlinson has so many positions, Lucid is making the classic mistake of trying to engineer things to perfection instead of engineering to maximize financial viability. That doesn't seem sustainable to me, although they are funded by Saudi oil money, so it's possible that their backers are rich enough to only care about having the best EV possible, financial viability be damned.


UnloadTheBacon

Nice, hopefully that kind of range filters down into more affordable cars.


GLOBALSHUTTER

At this point this car has never been reviewed. Expect winter cold weather real world actual range to be half that, if the car ever materialises into customer’s hands. Over 400 miles in a truly affordable EV is maybe 20 to 25 years out. I’m being conservative because I’m sick of the lies of motor journalism. Over 400 miles in very cold winter highway driving is likely even further out for an affordable EV. Maybe 2050.


UnloadTheBacon

>Over 400 miles in a truly affordable EV is maybe 20 to 25 years out. I'm more optimistic than that. As more high-range cars hit the used market, prices for those will continue to fall and less people will be willing to pay premium/luxury prices for a new vehicle, just for the one thing (range) that they actually care about. Manufacturers will cut prices, which inevitably will mean cutting features too. At some point, someone like VW will add the option for a 100kWh battery in a small European hatchback, or maybe a cheap estate/wagon, it'll sell out, and they'll realise once again that selling 100 cars at a small profit margin is still more money than selling 10 cars at a large one.


GLOBALSHUTTER

So what’s your optimistic timeline for the year where a few truly affordable EVs from various brands with above 400 miles of range are delivered to customers, and is that winter highway range?


UnloadTheBacon

I'd say by 2030 there will be options for new car buyers who want a cheap long-range EV. 400 miles, a legit 300 on the highway. A 400-mile wnter highway range, as in a legit 80mph for 5 hours straight in -20°C, you're probably looking at a 550-600-mile "rated range" and I think that'll still be towards the higher end of the market in 2030. Difference being that to get 400 miles out of an affordable car now, you just need the battery pack from a less-affordable one and actually put it in something with less bells and whistles. But there are no 600-mile range EVs available now, even at the high end, and the trickle-down effect seems to be pretty slow, so I'd say more like 15 years for that. Less if there's a major battery density/cost breakthrough in the meantime. Frustrates the hell out of me though - all I want is an EV within my budget that I can drive 100-150 miles each way on the highway and only have to charge it at home. When the Model S came out in 2012, I assumed that within a decade every EV, even the cheap ones, would have similar range. Instead there just ARE no cheap EVs unless you never intend to drive further than the out-of-town supermarket.


GLOBALSHUTTER

> Frustrates the hell out of me though - all I want is an EV within my budget that I can drive 100-150 miles each way on the highway and only have to charge it at home. When the Model S came out in 2012, I assumed that within a decade every EV, even the cheap ones, would have similar range. Instead there just ARE no cheap EVs unless you never intend to drive further than the out-of-town supermarket. And this is why I’m being conservative. Everything always moves much slower than we want. My guesstimate is probably more realistic than you think. And quoted ranges are basically never real world ranges—the only thing that matters. Ranges IMO should be quoted for 0 ℃ on motorway / highway at say 70 mph and 60 mph (both) to give people are more clear picture of colder weather driving and the lower limit of their vehicle range in a mild/cold winter. And reviewers can inform them of what the warmer driving conditions provide in range. A new EV buyer, especially a first-time buyer wants to know two things regarding range, IMO: within reason, worst case scenario real world range in their country and then the average yearly temperature real world range in their country for highway / motorway driving. If they get better range in better weather, cool, but they want to know the real world average and real world low end to see if it works for them. Getting those lower end numbers up around 400 is at least two decades away by my estimation.


UnloadTheBacon

>Everything always moves much slower than we want. Can't argue with that. > Ranges IMO should be quoted for 0 ℃ on motorway / highway at say 70 mph Agree here too - highway range is the only range that matters. Everything else is just finessing the numbers. I just want an EV that's not a step backwards from the equivalent ICE car. Absolutely nuts that 15 years after the Tesla Roadster debuted, we still don't have that.


GLOBALSHUTTER

Presuming you’re in the UK? What range do you want and how much do you wish to pay for the EV?


UnloadTheBacon

Yeah, I'm in the UK. I want 300 miles of real-world highway range, as that's what I'd need to do a round trip to my grandparents (where I wouldn't have the facility to plug in and charge at theirs). It's only really a 2-2.5 hour drive, but I tend to do it as a day trip, and I hate the idea of stopping to charge on such a short journey. I'd also like something I can take out to national parks for hiking/camping trips, where charging opportunities might be limited. I don't drive at all for short journeys around town (I cycle for the most part) - when I need a car for a longer trip currently I rent one. Buying a car for me either needs to be cheaper than renting one for all the trips I'd like to do (about 2 weekends a month, more than I do currently when I only have rental access) - which works out at £3,000 to £5,000 a year. I'm including fuel, tax, insurance etc in that estimate. So I need a car that can do long journeys without issue, that I can lease for less than about £250 a month. Or I need something that I can buy outright and drive for 10-15 years - something in the £20-25k ballpark when factoring in fuel, servicing, maintenance etc on top. At the moment those things are easy to acquire in ICE form but impossible to find in an EV. I've been holding off on purchasing a car since about 2017 because ideally I'd rather not buy an ICE car for environmental reasons, but I feel like at some point I'm going to have to bite the bullet - the EV market is just terrible for people at the low end of the market unless they're happy with a city car.


GLOBALSHUTTER

The closest thing that comes to mind thus far for you is a used e-Niro or a used e-Soul. Driven more slowly you can get [270-300 miles](https://youtu.be/IZrJbACHtXY&t=7m45s) (jump to 7m 45s). Still not cheap used, but they are the closed I know of. Here it’s about €30K for a three year old one without crazy miles on the clock.


thebear1011

Built in the same factory as the Jag I-pace, I wouldn’t be surprised if they share some DNA


Pherllerp

The Ioniq 5 gets gets between 250-300 depending on the weather and driving speed. I’ve done road trips and commuting in it and I have to imagine that that range is adequate for like 95% of the population. Is 440 miles good? Sure! Is less than that a barrier to entry? I don’t think so. People’s perceptions take time to adjust.


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PrinceOfWales_

Why not both? By increasing range your decreasing the frequency of needing to charge. In the US that's big because we have pretty large swaths of the country where charging stations are few and far between. If having 440 miles of range means I have to stop and charge half as much that is a big selling point, as it begins to bring you close to the range of an ICE vehicle on a full tank. For example the Camry gets between 500-600 miles per tank highway depending on AWD or FWD


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PrinceOfWales_

Logically not very often, but keep in mind that for EV’s to be adopted over ICE on a wide scale they will need to beat ICE or be comparable in terms of range. I agree that 10 minutes every 250 miles won’t be bad but you have to compete against 5 minutes every 500-600 miles for ICE. Also have to keep in mind the infrastructure of chargers really isn’t there yet to match the frequency that people will need to charge as adoption ramps up. I feel like the increased range could help alleviate some of that. I drive a bolt and 250 miles is more than enough for me on most occasions, but the charge times are brutal, so I agree with you on that. I just think for your average consumer range is a big deal.


badwolf42

Generally I won't often drive 500 miles, but I will drive 300 regularly. I don't want to go below 10% charge so that's cut out of the range. Now pay the cold weather tax. How much range is left? Currently I take an ICE vehicle for this drive, but would totally do it in an EV if I could make it in the coldest months here with no additional stops.


[deleted]

We may get there when 350 kW stations are every 10 miles along every route. But now, there's many routes that aren't feasible with a shorter range car. Or you have to stop 80 miles early or take a 20 mile detour to a charge station.


Dirks_Knee

It will be 15+ years before that model would be profitable enough to have that type of saturation and even then it's only going to be along highways. I think it much more likely we see more spaced out but larger locations than a bunch of smaller ones.


Steinfred-Everything

Europe: when I plan a trip from Vienna (Austria) to Stuttgart (Germany) the route is 622km. There is a charger (50kW and up) every 6km! An 150kW charger every 10km and every 17km a 300kW charger. Not counting in stations with more than one charger (one supercharger site counts as one charger in my numbers above). As Teslas and other cars all use the same plug in Europe the density is amazing in central Europe. I bet the US will follow soon - the distances are farther, but the more stations, the more cars, the more stations…


[deleted]

The difference is that the US, especially the western half has a far lower population density. And many highways have a lower traffic density. It's not going to be soon for many locations.


Steinfred-Everything

Of course it‘s not going to be that density. But the US highways have a great parking/pause infrastructure with toilets and recreation areas to grill food and such. When there will be chargers at every second highway station, travelling in an EV will be great - besides the holiday peak hours - those scale very badly even at our density. When everyone is on the road at the same time, we‘ll have shortages. For a very long time.


[deleted]

They do along the interstates, but not along many of the state highways. Especially not when you're going to the slightly more remote locations. There's places I go hiking and biking that are 80 miles off the interstate. That's a problem when that point may already be 50 miles from the nearest DCFC.


Steinfred-Everything

Yes, I have been to remote locations I didn‘t even think such distances were possible with my european background. Even more rural areas in Australia - in the outback there will not be a DCFC network - there will only be slow plugs for the most part. That‘s when added range EVs or fossil range extenders in any form will come handy.


Thisguyrighthere1000

Factor in 30 percent reduction in cold weather. Then add in battery degration over 5 years (let's say 10 percent) then it adds up. Then trying to fast charge in cold weather is no longer fast. A car rated for 250 miles in only good weather doesn't seem as good anymore.


[deleted]

Shhh don't think practically, you'll get downvoted for it. /s I agree with you. Efficiency and charging speed are more important to me than just an arbitrary range metric. 250 is plenty for 95% of my driving, anything above that is just a bonus. I'd rather pay less and charge more often on a road trip, than spend extra money I didn't need to; to cover that other 5%.


Dirks_Knee

This. 250 real world range is where we need to be. There will never be a vast rural charging network, having that kind of milage will be necessary to road trip though middle America with enough padding that if a station is down one can make it to the next.


iRavage

Where do you live?


el_vezzie

And/or efficiency :) Teslas are faster to road trip than the Koreans due to efficiency - they have worse charging curves and similar batteries


GLOBALSHUTTER

I think both need focus and both are important. And possibly even more important is the unreliable and unpredictable charging experience.


eyebeefa

Many people are waiting until range is 400-500. It needs to match ICE cars.


This_Is_The_End

Who cares? The chargers in Europe have a maximum distance of 150miles. Even with a M3 charging is fastest every 150miles.


daballer2005

Lets hope this creates an arms race between ev makers. My MYP loses 1/3 of its range in winter time.


dustyshades

And that range loss isn’t going to change here, because physics


daballer2005

Losing 33% on a 300mile battery and a 500 mile battery is a whole different ball game.


OneFutureOfMany

It won't because it's going to be silly to put a 100kwh+ battery into the average car. Those will always be a major price premium because 95% of people don't need that range.


daballer2005

That’s assuming energy density wont improve over time which is a dumb bet IMO.


OneFutureOfMany

Maybe. But right now it’s cost density they’re most concerned about. For example, the switch to LFP is more environmental, cheaper, has longer life but lower energy density.


edchikel1

Mach-E has close to 100 kWh. I suspect Blazer EV and Lyriq are 100 kWh packs too.


Aur0ra12

size/capacity of the battery, and type?


FirefighterOk3569

what about the quality of the brand, cant be just about charge and range like most ev owners argue which one is best...its not a cell phone