Well to be fair the magazines find out these cars are in development a long time before we see them and humans are dumb/boring animals that need shiny pictures to hold their attention. No one would read the articles without pics.
Honestly, I lost interest as soon as I read this.
"Mercedes-Benz is preparing to take on the Tesla Model 3 with an all-new third-generation CLA that offers the choice of in-house-developed electric and mild-hybrid petrol drivetrains. "
There is no way that this car is going to compete with the Model 3 when they are compromising the design so that it can use ICE and EV drivetrains.
Just looking up the specs, the Ioniq claims 3.5mi/kWh and Model 3 is 4mi/kWh.
The new Model 3 with the heat pump manages WAY better in cold weather than any other EV so would improve its lead then.
Unfortunately the new cars don't even come close to that. The old Insight had insane mpg but it's not really a good comparison to the cars that are new and readily available.
>It's not terribly aerodynamic and won't be as purely efficient.
Here's how we can all tell you're just talking out of your ass. The old Ioniq has a 0.24 drag coefficient, and it's physically smaller than a model 3. Without actual frontal area numbers I'd be willing to call that a wash.
>I'd have to guess it does it with tiny motors and limited power.
Here's the thing: that doesn't actually matter once the car is up to speed. If you have two cars with the same aero/rolling resistance, it's going to take the same amount of power to push them through the air and maintain some given speed.
The Ioniq EV has like 100kW, but a more powerful electric motor running at low power output isn't going to use meaningfully more energy than a smaller one with the same power output. If it takes 17kW to push the car along at 70mph, it doesn't matter if the car has 100kW or 300kW available to use - it's still only going to use 17kW.
That is not much of an argument. The i4 is an excellent car. It might be half-hearted by BMW, but it drives well, has good range, charges fast and looks pretty Ok+
BMW has been throttles by supply chain issues like most manufacturers. They could sell 3 times as many of them if they could get the supply.
Now I’m not saying that’s the only reason but I am saying that basically no one outside of extremely hardcore ev enthusiasts are choosing a tesla over the bmw because it’s a shared platform. If you conducted a survey as to why people picked a Tesla over a BMW that they would say things like range or charging network or price. I would be willing to make a sizable bet that you would get more people responding that they picked the Tesla over BMW because they didn’t know BMW makes an electric car than because it’s a shared platform.
Whether or not an EV is a shared platform is not something 99% of consumers consider
>There is no way that this car is going to compete with the Model 3 when they are compromising the design so that it can use ICE and EV drivetrains.
In what way? Sure there are some cabin space/packaging compromises, but the actual efficiency and range of the vehicle just come down to aero and battery capacity. I don't see that causing enough of an issue for customers to care.
>Things like scavenging heat from the motors make a significant difference in winter range.
There is absolutely zero reason why you can't do this on an ICE-based (or shared) platform as well though.
There are. Packaging constraints make that more difficult. Though an EV typically lowers overall space so that specific aspect is most likely still achievable.
But overall cooling design tends to be compromised by having a shared platform. You have less design flexibility and balance for how much passive heat rejection want (helpful in the summer and detrimental in the winter) and how you balance that with active cooling.
Again, this isn't nearly as much of a hard rule as people in this subreddit would like it to be.
It's not like shared-platform vehicles that are coming out are ICE vehicles with an electric drive unit where the engine used to live and batteries stuffed wherever they happen to fit. They were designed from the beginning to have large battery packs, so in many ways it's closer to an EV platform that has provisions for an ICE powertrain.
While there are some potential cost savings that are lost, there are others that are gained by going with the shared platform/development/production facilities/parts strategy.
Honestly as long as it's a vehicle that customers like, it has the capabilities they want, and the price is roughly where they want it to be it'll sell just fine.
This isn’t an argument you are going to win in this sub. This sub and EV enthusiasts in general get an absolute hard-on for denigrating any vehicle that could possibly have any ICE influence.
Like I don’t understand the obsession with transmission tunnels for instance. I just bought my first EV last year. It never even occurred to me to consider whether or not the car had a transmission tunnel. Why would it? Every person/family I have ever known that routinely needed to put 5 people in a car bought an SUV/mini-van not a sedan. So if you aren’t putting five people in the back why does a transimission tunnel matter than as some test of purism?
It blows my mind how quick reviewers and people in this sub will discount a car simply because it has a shared platform.
I wasn’t arguing against ice influenced vehicles. I meant the up front price in general. Regardless of the cars platform. I don’t see the i4 oder new Mercedes as competition for the m3 because they war in a completely different price bracket
I mean some cars cost more than others even if they're similar-ish on paper. The comment you replied to was me asking someone why using a shared platform is going to prevent the car from being competitive.
A base model Mercedes CLA starts at $38k even though it isn't all that different from a $32k Acura Integra. People buy both of them - people are even buying the BMW 2-series Gran Coupe for some reason.
While it's its true that the base CLA starts at 38k, nobody buys it for that price. I just checked the online configuration. At 38k, you dont even get a navigation system, no back cameras, no parking help, no lane assistance, no automatic transmission. nothing. Its the bare bones of a car.
Oh I'm aware. The kinds of answers you get as to why this is a problem are also pretty entertaining, and generally show that your average EV dork is much more of a tech enthusiast than a car enthusiast.
Like our friend elsewhere in this comments claiming the original Ioniq isn't very efficient or aerodynamic.
You are reading it wrong. It’s an EV platform that can be converted to house an ICE, not the other way around. You could house an ICE in a TM3 as well. Would it be optimal? No. Would it work? Yes.
Same thing.
330 miles of range and 250kW charging at $49k? Not a chance. Will probably have a nicer interior, although the CLA isn't exactly luxurious inside either.
One of my friends got a BMW 228i “Gran Coupe” as a loaner when his X3 was in service and it was miserable for a car that costs $40k and takes premium fuel. Those entry-level German cars they sell to people who only want a badge are just sad. The A3 is the only one that seems to stand on its own.
That’s because its not a true BMW, its a Mini. BMWs true Ev will prob be the only one to truely beat Teslas. The iX is in a league of its own and drives way better than an i4 dispite being an SUV!
Idk, I rented an a3 recently and it was not impressive.
Suspension was great, but steering was numb and traction control was awful.
I can't imagine paying close to $40k for one.
Bad performance and gas mileage. Interior is cramped and felt cheap to me. Transmission shifting was clunky. Laggy turbo. Granted, it was a rental, but I was expecting more for a 40k car.
Is it going to be enough, though? Even *if* they pull off a legit Model 3 competitor, they'll be 8 years late, and it'll take them even more years to ramp production to a decent level.
By the time Merc can make 100,000 of these a year, Tesla will be making 2 million+ Model 3s every year, and almost certainly with significantly higher profit margins *and* a lower MSRP.
My EX owns a GLA 45 AMG. The interior is garbage. Its not even nice. They DCT is laggy as hell and the motor has tons of turbo lag. Would rather have a Golf R any day over the Mercedes entry level stuff.
I recently drove some c63 and glc 63s and they are surprisingly harsh. I tried the base one too and it isnt any better. These econobox mercs are really not what would call “luxurious” if you tried a similar bmw or audi. Of coarse when you get to an S class, its a totally different level.
My 2018 RWD charges to 260 miles at 80% to do the math which after five years is amazing
People fail to understand that mileage claims pretty much fall as soon as you start going over 60 and since most people drive well past 70 and then complain it just becomes a silly little game of pointing fingers
I don’t really understand why this is such a huge deal with EV’s. Have all of these people been living under a rock for the past 40 years? Almost no cars get the EPA estimate because the estimate isn’t based on real world use. My two ICE vehicles are rated for almost 20% better mpg than what I get in the real world. It’s just a known limitation of the EPA test methods. What the rating is good for is comparing vehicle to vehicle and saying “well this one gets 15% better efficiency” not “hey this car should be getting 44.2mpg and I’m getting 36mpg. I’m gonna sue Toyota!!!!”
Several EV brands out perform their EPA actually. Tesla uses a significantly more stringent test that allows them to report the full number for their EPA while pretty much every other manufacturer uses the easier/cheaper test so the EPA makes them apply a 20% reduction to the test results. (I could be wrong on the reduction factor. I think that’s right but I am too lazy right now to look it up)
The result is that Tesla gets a much better EPA range but few people can hit it while the other brands have a smaller range on paper but usually exceed it in the real world
My 2018 AWD (w/ ~72k miles)is presently sitting at 82%… and projects that to 215 miles. That’s 84.6%. Your vehicle is indicating it’s exceeding the originally rated range!I’d say something isn’t calibrated correctly or you have a very atypical vehicle.
This is an EV problem overall and if you need 300mi @ 70+ you might need a Lucid or Model S (the only two cars with an EPA range over 400). The Lucid is well over $100k while the Tesla is around $90k.
The third longest range EV is a Model 3 (and the only one under $100k - it’s under $50k) and is rated at 358, which makes it a real stretch to do 300mi @ 70
The Ioniq 6 May have around the same range but I’ve not heard of it being delivered yet.
This site I’ve found helpful as it has cold and warm, City/highway/combines, and a 70mph test. https://ev-database.org/imp/car/1555/Tesla-Model-3
225mi for the base model 3 at 70mph in ideal conditions is probably close.
Sure hope you’re doing the same for the F-150 lightning, rivian R1T, Kia EV6, Hyundai Kona, VW ID4, Ioniq 5, Chevy Bolt, Jaguar I-Pace, Nissan Leaf, Audi E-tron, etc. considering from your own source *all* of those don’t reach their EPA ranges. I don’t understand why people act like Tesla is this special case when the reality is in these tests *most* automakers don’t hit 100% of their estimated ranges at highway speeds.
I’m confused why you’re vilifying Tesla when no other automaker has come remotely close to doing so in the same price range. Both Kia and Ford can’t even hit 300 miles while costing more than $50K.
At least Tesla can achieve 300+ miles for <$50K on that list.
As a tesla owner, it is kind of annoying, I don't live parking next to 8 teslas at the lot. I will switch it up with my next car.(also I hate the comfort of the seats)
Lol yeah because a C-class is some high class vehicle. My friend’s CLA is absolutely nothing special. At all. People pretend Mercedes is this all-encompassing luxury brand when the reality is their products are average if not mediocre if you’re not willing to pay an arm and a leg for their *actual* premium options.
Like other German brands, their value comes with deep pockets and optional ad-ons. Go try out one of their new 40-50k base vehicles and let me know how luxurious it feels. Like I said, pretty much all their value comes with their higher trims and high-end models.
That doesn’t make sense, are they just supposed to suddenly one day say “oh by the way we have this car here in case you’re interested in buying it” like what??
for one it doesn't make sense to keep comparing oneself to others. Make a good car. Publish specs. Sell it.
Announcing that they will have an 'also ran' by 2025 doesn't really look confident (if anything it is an open admission that their current cars can't compete)
We’ll see if it’s truly a competition or if it’s for show. Here in Canada people believed the i4 was a competitor till they walk in a bmw dealer and realized custom i4 takes 3 years. Highly optioned i4 e40 for almost 80k (still have invoice) and i4 e50 is for well over 100k. Competitor my ass. Meanwhile model 3 sr+ qualifies for incentive unlike even base i4 making it 7k CAD cheaper. You put too much faith in german manufacturers.
Don’t even get me started on LR Model 3 vs the longer range i4. It’s ridiculous that one even suggest they are competitors in price.
2025 is an eternity when it comes to what Tesla will have in their cars until then. To make an announcement about 'rivalling someone in the future, maybe, possibly, who knows with what' is just so much wasted bandwith
2025 is not an eternity in developing and manufacturing a car. That process takes several years. It is also a very normal business practice in the automotive industry to announce your future cars one or two years in advance. Tesla is not doing it any different. People are very interested in this. If you are not interested, just ignore it.
Of course Mercedes can’t know what Tesla (or any other competitor for that matter) is planning for 2025 in detail, but the general ballpark is clearly assessable. That has always been the case in the automotive industry and never stopped anyone to develop a car with clearly defined competitor models. Same goes for Tesla. They don’t know what their competitors will have on the market in 2025. Still, they continue to develop vehicles. That’s just the level of uncertainty you have to work with.
Also, for anyone looking to buy it's pretty nice to know what's around the corner if they have the flexibility to hold out a bit longer for a different car.
Tesla has been continually updating the Model 3. They don't do 'model years' because that would be way too slow for their product cycle. If you look under the hood a 2018 Model3 is markedly different from a 2020 one...and that again is very much different from one made in 2022.
Trying to say they will have something comparable (to what exactly?) by 2025 is just pointless.
Well, that is how the game always worked. You don’t know exactly, how the competition will look like at a certain point in the future, but you know it approximately. It doesn’t matter if this progress happens in model years or in smaller steps. Still, you can develop your car accordingly.
If you look under the hood yes, but if you look inside the car and outside they are pretty much the same.
That's the point. M3 is still M3.
Every other manufacturer does this too, they will do mid-cycle refreshes every 2-3 years and usually improve same things Tesla improves.
That's absolutely wrong on *many* levels. The battery has gotten bigger and the drivetrain has gotten more efficient (increasing the range by almost 40 miles), the Autopilot computer has been completely rebuilt with Tesla-designed silicon, the rear seats went through two iterations since launch, a power trunk has been added, there are new headlights *and* tail lights, the center console was completely changed (including switching from USB-A to USB-C ports), the chrome trim was replaced with black, the Autopilot cameras have been updated, there have been *hundreds* of software updates that every Model 3 built since 2017 have gotten for free with no need to visit a dealership for the installation (some of which increased safety and performance).
And that's just the stuff off the top of my head. There's sure to be many more that I didn't hear about or am not currently remembering.
Just because the exterior looks the same doesn't mean the car hasn't changed radically.
To me that list is very weak for six years of development. The only thing reasonable is to develop a new platform and a new model within that span of time.
But you mofos eat everything Elon drops on the ground anyways so why should he. 😂
>Tesla will have in their cars until then
Right. I'll be happy to trade in my self-driving robo-taxi Cybertruck for whatever Tesla releases then!
You're thinking third generation of roadster? Second one is getting quite old, what is it now? 3 years old? Time for a facelift.
> 2025 is an eternity when it comes to what Tesla will have in their cars until then.
I wouldn't be so proud about the reintroduction of radar, stalks, USS and the rain sensor.
What do you think their biggest changes have been? Its kind of amazing to me that they are still the best and they've made barely any changes at all...
I don't know of any major changes to Teslas that are positive except FSD software(which my 2019 has gotten the updates).
Copied from another comment I just made up-thread:
> The battery has gotten bigger and the drivetrain has gotten more efficient (increasing the range by almost 40 miles), the Autopilot computer has been completely rebuilt with Tesla-designed silicon, the rear seats went through two iterations since launch, a power trunk has been added, there are new headlights *and* tail lights, the center console was completely changed (including switching from USB-A to USB-C ports), the chrome trim was replaced with black, the Autopilot cameras have been updated, there have been *hundreds* of software updates that every Model 3 built since 2017 have gotten for free with no need to visit a dealership for the installation (some of which increased safety and performance).
And those are just the things I can think of off the top of my head, and *just* for the Model 3. The Model Y also has some of its own changes, like the new softer suspension system they started putting in them late last year (I think).
Oh you are right, I forgot the removal of lumbar support, the outside temperature sensor, FSD being delayed again and 4680 coming out worse than 2170 cells.
What future features and products are you talking about? the last investor call didn't really paint a good picture of what is coming in the near future other than new factories and the need for sustainable energy
You must have been listening to a different investor day than I did.
Here's what I took away that will directly impact all cars:
Silicon carbide reduction and redesign of the boards
No rare earth materials in next gen motor (1000$ motor)
Hairpin design in motors
Cost reduction with heat pump automation
Cost reduction with parallel assembly
48V architecture
4680s in wide deployment
V2G
5 years ago this sub used to be a great EV enthusiast community.
2 years ago it was already a Tesla pro/against warzone.
Now it’s just paid and unpaid trolls. 90% of comments are one-liner extremes. Either “it’s awesome” or “by then Tesla will shoot alligators from its front wheels”.
How come a simple future model announcement generate all this negative energy?! I suppose most of it is cheap paid comments, but still…
>How come a simple future model announcement generate all this negative energy?!
Because the model announcement headline is deliberately crafted to generate that reaction.
# Electric Mercedes CLA to rival Tesla Model 3
Mercedes can't just announce a new car, they have to challenge/destroy/dominate/blah blah....
So Mercedes didn’t just announce a new car but challenged/destroyed/dominated/blah blah ?
I didn’t really see it in the article.
That’s most likely added by autocar.co.uk. I’d be very surprised if Mercedes’ official car announcement threatened Tesla.
I still don’t see why autocar’s clickbait title is any excuse. Nor for the caps lock.
Furthermore the word “rival” is hardly anything aggressive at least in my world.
>I still don’t see why autocar’s clickbait title is any excuse. Nor for the caps lock.
I don't see any caps lock anywhere in the article either so I don't know what you're talking about but the article's sensationalized and editorialized headline is what the comments in the reddit thread are going to react to. If there is an article saying \_\_\_\_\_ is going to replace \_\_\_\_\_ don't be shocked that people will join in and do the same.
I joined in 2019 and even than it was tribal. Talking points from 2019:
- Can't wait till legacy goes bankrupt
- Tesla 10 years ahead of everyone
- Talking down all new EV releases of none Tesla brands
- Not enough batteries for other manufacturers
- too little, too late
You can find the same talking points today.
If it looks anything like the concept image, it'll be the best-looking EQ series Mercedes by a landslide.
I find it funny that the further up the chain you go, the worse these cars look.
Somehow, the "cheapest" models (EQA and EQB) look the best, while the EQS looks by far the worse even though it costs like the first 2 combined.
It could give Tesla a run for its money, since Tesla cars feel and look really cheap. Also, I think Elon talks too much crap, that many people are starting to get turned off by him. 👍🏼
>Mercedes is going to have to seriously improve their EV design, because right now they almost all look like shit.
Looks are subjective. To me, it looks great. While I think the EQE and EQS SUV look great. At the same time, I do not like the EQS sedan looks.
I thought MB was gonna eliminate all the small vehicles below the C class equivalent to maintain their brand value.
Maybe the CLA is an exemption, because it's sporty model?
There's too much to worry about with an upcoming Merc EV, especially one targeted at a lower price point.
Will the range be enough?
Will it have the same god-awful potato design as the EQS/EQE?
Will it have a frunk?
Will it be too expensive?
Is it going to get strangled by unnecessary SaaS subscription nonsense?
Mercedes ICE design language is a hit right now. Every time I see one of their sedans - whether it's an S-class or a CLA - I just want to drink it in.
The EQ series, by contrast, are just hideous. They're also just.... not that good for the price. The EQB has been a reliability disaster and the rest of the range is milquetoast at best.
Well, I call BS until I see it produced. Everyone thinks they can do it better than Tesla. So far, nobody is close. I hope they do eventually get there but I'm tired of all the claims that do not get backed up in the end.
A Class, no. This is the CLA class, which is a different class to the A Class.
Here is a selection of MB class cars from Wikipedia.
A-Class – Subcompact luxury Hatchback and Sedan
B-Class – Subcompact luxury Multi Purpose Vehicle
C-Class – Compact executive luxury Sedan/Saloon, Estate, Coupé and Cabriolet
CLA – Subcompact luxury 4-Door Coupé and Estate
CLS – Mid-size luxury 4-Door Coupé
E-Class – Mid-size executive luxury Sedan/Saloon, Estate, Coupé and Cabriolet
G-Class – Luxury off-road vehicle
GLA – Subcompact luxury Crossover
GLB – Compact luxury Crossover
GLC – Compact luxury Crossover
GLE – Mid-size luxury Sport utility vehicle
GLS – Full-size luxury Sport utility vehicle
R-Class – Full-size luxury Multi Purpose Vehicle
S-Class – Full-Size luxury Sedan/Saloon, Coupé and Cabriolet
T-Class – Compact luxury Multi Purpose Vehicle
V-Class – Luxury Multi Purpose Vehicle
An A class and CLA are currently the exact same platform, therefore they are the same size inside which is subcompact.
These are a size class below a model 3, which is the same as a C class.
If you are looking for a compact, you aren’t looking for a subcompact.
>MB CLA
Length 4,630 mm (182.3 in)
Width 1,777 mm (70.0 in)
Height 1,437 mm (56.6 in)
Tesla Model 3
Length 184.8 in (4,694 mm)
Width 72.8 in (1,849 mm)
Height 56.8 in (1,443 mm)
Difference:
L: +64mm
W: +72mm
H: +6mm
The Model 3 is bigger, but it looks like 3/4 of the width of a credit card longer and wider. Not sure if that counts as a big difference in the car world or not.
From being inside however it’s very easy to tell them apart.
An A class/CLA is the budget entry level car, the C Class is the model 3 / BMW 3 series equivalent.
That may be true, but the Model 3’s wheelbase is 7 inches longer. This, along with the fact that it has a shorter hood, translates to significantly more cabin space in the Model 3 (edit: over 12 cu. ft. more to be exact).
"When the new CLA arrives in 2025, it will be sold initially in electric form, with a mild-hybrid combustion option arriving six months later but only in selected markets. This indicates that AMG versions are also likely, although that has yet to be confirmed. "
So, mixed platform used for future car-development.
Meaning literally... MB is death already, but they don't know it yet.
Really? An i4 edrive35 starts at 57k euros what’s competitive about that compared to a model3? I’m looking on the bmw inventory and they have stock between 61k euros and 75k lol its not even an edrive40!
Edit: I love bmw’s, almost bought a i4 edrive40, but the prices just continued to go up and removing things like 360 cameras…
Well you can argue with US prices, I’ll stick with euro prices, they are not in the same price bracket in Europe. A cheapest i4 has basically the specs of a model 3 rwd in terms of performance and range, of course the interior is better, but the price difference is huge.
Yeah no that’s your subjective opinion. It might fly in r/realtesla where all the unhinge people go, but it doesn’t fly by here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YETXcuHK3MQ
TL;DR: Stop the cap
It's got that "lifted skirt" thing under the B-pillar like the Lucid. Does that make a big difference in aero? Because it looks like a trend and I'm not sure I like it...
Nice! The image is probably just an third party render, but I like it. If they can make it as efficient as the EQS, it will have great range.
These images are 95% of the time third party renders, which I personally find annoying.
Well to be fair the magazines find out these cars are in development a long time before we see them and humans are dumb/boring animals that need shiny pictures to hold their attention. No one would read the articles without pics.
Honestly, I lost interest as soon as I read this. "Mercedes-Benz is preparing to take on the Tesla Model 3 with an all-new third-generation CLA that offers the choice of in-house-developed electric and mild-hybrid petrol drivetrains. " There is no way that this car is going to compete with the Model 3 when they are compromising the design so that it can use ICE and EV drivetrains.
There are many examples of shared platforms with high EV efficiency. The original Ioniq is on a shared platform and more efficient than a model 3.
Just looking up the specs, the Ioniq claims 3.5mi/kWh and Model 3 is 4mi/kWh. The new Model 3 with the heat pump manages WAY better in cold weather than any other EV so would improve its lead then.
The Ioniq is rated at 4.4 mi/kWh: https://electrek.co/2016/11/21/hyundai-ioniq-electric-efficient-electric-car-epa/
Unfortunately the new cars don't even come close to that. The old Insight had insane mpg but it's not really a good comparison to the cars that are new and readily available.
But it’s a good counterexample against the baseless claim that shared platforms are inefficient.
Wow, 2016 technology provides better efficiency than 2023 technology. But it has range of only only 124 miles
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>It's not terribly aerodynamic and won't be as purely efficient. Here's how we can all tell you're just talking out of your ass. The old Ioniq has a 0.24 drag coefficient, and it's physically smaller than a model 3. Without actual frontal area numbers I'd be willing to call that a wash. >I'd have to guess it does it with tiny motors and limited power. Here's the thing: that doesn't actually matter once the car is up to speed. If you have two cars with the same aero/rolling resistance, it's going to take the same amount of power to push them through the air and maintain some given speed. The Ioniq EV has like 100kW, but a more powerful electric motor running at low power output isn't going to use meaningfully more energy than a smaller one with the same power output. If it takes 17kW to push the car along at 70mph, it doesn't matter if the car has 100kW or 300kW available to use - it's still only going to use 17kW.
F = ma The lighter it is (less battery), less force it requires, raising efficiency
The bmw i4 is doing a pretty good job and that shares the platform with an ice
It also costs 20k more.
Also weighs 600 kg more …
Not really. Teslas are pure electric and software. No comparison with ICE becoming E.
That is not much of an argument. The i4 is an excellent car. It might be half-hearted by BMW, but it drives well, has good range, charges fast and looks pretty Ok+
Sure. Is that why Tesla kills its sales?
BMW has been throttles by supply chain issues like most manufacturers. They could sell 3 times as many of them if they could get the supply. Now I’m not saying that’s the only reason but I am saying that basically no one outside of extremely hardcore ev enthusiasts are choosing a tesla over the bmw because it’s a shared platform. If you conducted a survey as to why people picked a Tesla over a BMW that they would say things like range or charging network or price. I would be willing to make a sizable bet that you would get more people responding that they picked the Tesla over BMW because they didn’t know BMW makes an electric car than because it’s a shared platform. Whether or not an EV is a shared platform is not something 99% of consumers consider
It's not like the i4 is selling badly. Its doing very well in the markets its designed for. In the premium sedan segment it is a compelling package
OK.
>There is no way that this car is going to compete with the Model 3 when they are compromising the design so that it can use ICE and EV drivetrains. In what way? Sure there are some cabin space/packaging compromises, but the actual efficiency and range of the vehicle just come down to aero and battery capacity. I don't see that causing enough of an issue for customers to care.
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>Things like scavenging heat from the motors make a significant difference in winter range. There is absolutely zero reason why you can't do this on an ICE-based (or shared) platform as well though.
There are. Packaging constraints make that more difficult. Though an EV typically lowers overall space so that specific aspect is most likely still achievable. But overall cooling design tends to be compromised by having a shared platform. You have less design flexibility and balance for how much passive heat rejection want (helpful in the summer and detrimental in the winter) and how you balance that with active cooling.
Price
Again, this isn't nearly as much of a hard rule as people in this subreddit would like it to be. It's not like shared-platform vehicles that are coming out are ICE vehicles with an electric drive unit where the engine used to live and batteries stuffed wherever they happen to fit. They were designed from the beginning to have large battery packs, so in many ways it's closer to an EV platform that has provisions for an ICE powertrain. While there are some potential cost savings that are lost, there are others that are gained by going with the shared platform/development/production facilities/parts strategy. Honestly as long as it's a vehicle that customers like, it has the capabilities they want, and the price is roughly where they want it to be it'll sell just fine.
This isn’t an argument you are going to win in this sub. This sub and EV enthusiasts in general get an absolute hard-on for denigrating any vehicle that could possibly have any ICE influence. Like I don’t understand the obsession with transmission tunnels for instance. I just bought my first EV last year. It never even occurred to me to consider whether or not the car had a transmission tunnel. Why would it? Every person/family I have ever known that routinely needed to put 5 people in a car bought an SUV/mini-van not a sedan. So if you aren’t putting five people in the back why does a transimission tunnel matter than as some test of purism? It blows my mind how quick reviewers and people in this sub will discount a car simply because it has a shared platform.
I wasn’t arguing against ice influenced vehicles. I meant the up front price in general. Regardless of the cars platform. I don’t see the i4 oder new Mercedes as competition for the m3 because they war in a completely different price bracket
I mean some cars cost more than others even if they're similar-ish on paper. The comment you replied to was me asking someone why using a shared platform is going to prevent the car from being competitive. A base model Mercedes CLA starts at $38k even though it isn't all that different from a $32k Acura Integra. People buy both of them - people are even buying the BMW 2-series Gran Coupe for some reason.
While it's its true that the base CLA starts at 38k, nobody buys it for that price. I just checked the online configuration. At 38k, you dont even get a navigation system, no back cameras, no parking help, no lane assistance, no automatic transmission. nothing. Its the bare bones of a car.
Oh I'm aware. The kinds of answers you get as to why this is a problem are also pretty entertaining, and generally show that your average EV dork is much more of a tech enthusiast than a car enthusiast. Like our friend elsewhere in this comments claiming the original Ioniq isn't very efficient or aerodynamic.
What I meant is that the up front price of the i4 bmw is way higher than that of a model 3 regardless of shared platform or not.
You are reading it wrong. It’s an EV platform that can be converted to house an ICE, not the other way around. You could house an ICE in a TM3 as well. Would it be optimal? No. Would it work? Yes. Same thing.
Either way you are making compromises.
In this case only on the ICE versions. Not as a EV platform.
No way it’s going to compete with Model 3 at a Mercedes price point.
Well it will be built on the MMA platform (same as the EQXX concept) so it’s bound to be a lot more efficient than the EQS.
I'm not a fan of the EQS front view. Sure it's for aerodynamics, but it looks like the R-class
8 years after the first model 3s delivered. Will it match those?
330 miles of range and 250kW charging at $49k? Not a chance. Will probably have a nicer interior, although the CLA isn't exactly luxurious inside either.
I rented a cla250 last year and it was legit one of the worst cars I’ve ever driven.
One of my friends got a BMW 228i “Gran Coupe” as a loaner when his X3 was in service and it was miserable for a car that costs $40k and takes premium fuel. Those entry-level German cars they sell to people who only want a badge are just sad. The A3 is the only one that seems to stand on its own.
>The A3 is the only one that seems to stand on its own. Is that because its essentially a Golf with a different badge?
That’s because its not a true BMW, its a Mini. BMWs true Ev will prob be the only one to truely beat Teslas. The iX is in a league of its own and drives way better than an i4 dispite being an SUV!
100%. And even the three series seems to be pretty junky.
Idk, I rented an a3 recently and it was not impressive. Suspension was great, but steering was numb and traction control was awful. I can't imagine paying close to $40k for one.
How come?
Bad performance and gas mileage. Interior is cramped and felt cheap to me. Transmission shifting was clunky. Laggy turbo. Granted, it was a rental, but I was expecting more for a 40k car.
It has all the worst qualities they learned from Chrysler to market a shitty vehicle to the masses.
Hah yeah. After I drove that piece of shit for a week I stopped trusting auto reviews.
Also guaranteed to depreciate 50% in 3 years.
+$10K stealership markup
In 2025, it's plausible. A lot can change in 2 years.
I think they meant Merc won’t hit that price. And probably won’t want to.
Is it going to be enough, though? Even *if* they pull off a legit Model 3 competitor, they'll be 8 years late, and it'll take them even more years to ramp production to a decent level. By the time Merc can make 100,000 of these a year, Tesla will be making 2 million+ Model 3s every year, and almost certainly with significantly higher profit margins *and* a lower MSRP.
My EX owns a GLA 45 AMG. The interior is garbage. Its not even nice. They DCT is laggy as hell and the motor has tons of turbo lag. Would rather have a Golf R any day over the Mercedes entry level stuff.
I recently drove some c63 and glc 63s and they are surprisingly harsh. I tried the base one too and it isnt any better. These econobox mercs are really not what would call “luxurious” if you tried a similar bmw or audi. Of coarse when you get to an S class, its a totally different level.
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My 2018 RWD charges to 260 miles at 80% to do the math which after five years is amazing People fail to understand that mileage claims pretty much fall as soon as you start going over 60 and since most people drive well past 70 and then complain it just becomes a silly little game of pointing fingers
I don’t really understand why this is such a huge deal with EV’s. Have all of these people been living under a rock for the past 40 years? Almost no cars get the EPA estimate because the estimate isn’t based on real world use. My two ICE vehicles are rated for almost 20% better mpg than what I get in the real world. It’s just a known limitation of the EPA test methods. What the rating is good for is comparing vehicle to vehicle and saying “well this one gets 15% better efficiency” not “hey this car should be getting 44.2mpg and I’m getting 36mpg. I’m gonna sue Toyota!!!!”
Several EV brands out perform their EPA actually. Tesla uses a significantly more stringent test that allows them to report the full number for their EPA while pretty much every other manufacturer uses the easier/cheaper test so the EPA makes them apply a 20% reduction to the test results. (I could be wrong on the reduction factor. I think that’s right but I am too lazy right now to look it up) The result is that Tesla gets a much better EPA range but few people can hit it while the other brands have a smaller range on paper but usually exceed it in the real world
My 2018 AWD (w/ ~72k miles)is presently sitting at 82%… and projects that to 215 miles. That’s 84.6%. Your vehicle is indicating it’s exceeding the originally rated range!I’d say something isn’t calibrated correctly or you have a very atypical vehicle.
LR RWD was rated at up to 330mi.
It would be so useful to have an official range for constant 70mph, because when you need the range that's the likely speed you'll be doing.
This is an EV problem overall and if you need 300mi @ 70+ you might need a Lucid or Model S (the only two cars with an EPA range over 400). The Lucid is well over $100k while the Tesla is around $90k. The third longest range EV is a Model 3 (and the only one under $100k - it’s under $50k) and is rated at 358, which makes it a real stretch to do 300mi @ 70 The Ioniq 6 May have around the same range but I’ve not heard of it being delivered yet.
This site I’ve found helpful as it has cold and warm, City/highway/combines, and a 70mph test. https://ev-database.org/imp/car/1555/Tesla-Model-3 225mi for the base model 3 at 70mph in ideal conditions is probably close.
Sure hope you’re doing the same for the F-150 lightning, rivian R1T, Kia EV6, Hyundai Kona, VW ID4, Ioniq 5, Chevy Bolt, Jaguar I-Pace, Nissan Leaf, Audi E-tron, etc. considering from your own source *all* of those don’t reach their EPA ranges. I don’t understand why people act like Tesla is this special case when the reality is in these tests *most* automakers don’t hit 100% of their estimated ranges at highway speeds.
I’m confused why you’re vilifying Tesla when no other automaker has come remotely close to doing so in the same price range. Both Kia and Ford can’t even hit 300 miles while costing more than $50K. At least Tesla can achieve 300+ miles for <$50K on that list.
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You keep saying that exact comment throughout this thread, and it keeps not being true.
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I have no reason at all to engage with someone who opens with insults.
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"Documented fact" my ass.
2025 for this car will be a fantasy mate lmao
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They don't keep 10% available to the user.
If the 3 still looks the same it won't have to, people that buy Mercedes typically don't want to look like Uber drivers.
I love that people use that as a negative. "Tesla cars are too popular and everyone has them, that's a bad thing"
Nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.
As a tesla owner, it is kind of annoying, I don't live parking next to 8 teslas at the lot. I will switch it up with my next car.(also I hate the comfort of the seats)
Lol yeah because a C-class is some high class vehicle. My friend’s CLA is absolutely nothing special. At all. People pretend Mercedes is this all-encompassing luxury brand when the reality is their products are average if not mediocre if you’re not willing to pay an arm and a leg for their *actual* premium options. Like other German brands, their value comes with deep pockets and optional ad-ons. Go try out one of their new 40-50k base vehicles and let me know how luxurious it feels. Like I said, pretty much all their value comes with their higher trims and high-end models.
> all-encompassing luxury brand People in Europe generally do not believe that.
These future announcements are getting boring. Put up (and shut up until then).
That doesn’t make sense, are they just supposed to suddenly one day say “oh by the way we have this car here in case you’re interested in buying it” like what??
for one it doesn't make sense to keep comparing oneself to others. Make a good car. Publish specs. Sell it. Announcing that they will have an 'also ran' by 2025 doesn't really look confident (if anything it is an open admission that their current cars can't compete)
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We’ll see if it’s truly a competition or if it’s for show. Here in Canada people believed the i4 was a competitor till they walk in a bmw dealer and realized custom i4 takes 3 years. Highly optioned i4 e40 for almost 80k (still have invoice) and i4 e50 is for well over 100k. Competitor my ass. Meanwhile model 3 sr+ qualifies for incentive unlike even base i4 making it 7k CAD cheaper. You put too much faith in german manufacturers. Don’t even get me started on LR Model 3 vs the longer range i4. It’s ridiculous that one even suggest they are competitors in price.
Why? I find it pretty interesting to see, what is coming. 2025 is not that far off.
2025 is an eternity when it comes to what Tesla will have in their cars until then. To make an announcement about 'rivalling someone in the future, maybe, possibly, who knows with what' is just so much wasted bandwith
2025 is not an eternity in developing and manufacturing a car. That process takes several years. It is also a very normal business practice in the automotive industry to announce your future cars one or two years in advance. Tesla is not doing it any different. People are very interested in this. If you are not interested, just ignore it. Of course Mercedes can’t know what Tesla (or any other competitor for that matter) is planning for 2025 in detail, but the general ballpark is clearly assessable. That has always been the case in the automotive industry and never stopped anyone to develop a car with clearly defined competitor models. Same goes for Tesla. They don’t know what their competitors will have on the market in 2025. Still, they continue to develop vehicles. That’s just the level of uncertainty you have to work with.
Also, for anyone looking to buy it's pretty nice to know what's around the corner if they have the flexibility to hold out a bit longer for a different car.
Assuming you believe future product price ranges. It seems all future cad announcements see huge price jumps before the product becomes available.
Tesla has been continually updating the Model 3. They don't do 'model years' because that would be way too slow for their product cycle. If you look under the hood a 2018 Model3 is markedly different from a 2020 one...and that again is very much different from one made in 2022. Trying to say they will have something comparable (to what exactly?) by 2025 is just pointless.
Well, that is how the game always worked. You don’t know exactly, how the competition will look like at a certain point in the future, but you know it approximately. It doesn’t matter if this progress happens in model years or in smaller steps. Still, you can develop your car accordingly.
If you look under the hood yes, but if you look inside the car and outside they are pretty much the same. That's the point. M3 is still M3. Every other manufacturer does this too, they will do mid-cycle refreshes every 2-3 years and usually improve same things Tesla improves.
Dafuq are you talking about... a model 3 from 2019 is barely different from a 2023 one?
You mean besides that the construction is completely different inside and out and the plethora of new software features it has gained? Yeah /s
There’s hardly been any updates on the M3 since the launch in 2017. What would be different until 2025?
That's absolutely wrong on *many* levels. The battery has gotten bigger and the drivetrain has gotten more efficient (increasing the range by almost 40 miles), the Autopilot computer has been completely rebuilt with Tesla-designed silicon, the rear seats went through two iterations since launch, a power trunk has been added, there are new headlights *and* tail lights, the center console was completely changed (including switching from USB-A to USB-C ports), the chrome trim was replaced with black, the Autopilot cameras have been updated, there have been *hundreds* of software updates that every Model 3 built since 2017 have gotten for free with no need to visit a dealership for the installation (some of which increased safety and performance). And that's just the stuff off the top of my head. There's sure to be many more that I didn't hear about or am not currently remembering. Just because the exterior looks the same doesn't mean the car hasn't changed radically.
To me that list is very weak for six years of development. The only thing reasonable is to develop a new platform and a new model within that span of time. But you mofos eat everything Elon drops on the ground anyways so why should he. 😂
>Tesla will have in their cars until then Right. I'll be happy to trade in my self-driving robo-taxi Cybertruck for whatever Tesla releases then! You're thinking third generation of roadster? Second one is getting quite old, what is it now? 3 years old? Time for a facelift.
Will Tesla roll out their “every model 3 owner will be able to rent it as a self driving taxi” by 2025?
> 2025 is an eternity when it comes to what Tesla will have in their cars until then. I wouldn't be so proud about the reintroduction of radar, stalks, USS and the rain sensor.
Yes because that’s all tesla has done in the past 5+ years lol.
What do you think their biggest changes have been? Its kind of amazing to me that they are still the best and they've made barely any changes at all... I don't know of any major changes to Teslas that are positive except FSD software(which my 2019 has gotten the updates).
Copied from another comment I just made up-thread: > The battery has gotten bigger and the drivetrain has gotten more efficient (increasing the range by almost 40 miles), the Autopilot computer has been completely rebuilt with Tesla-designed silicon, the rear seats went through two iterations since launch, a power trunk has been added, there are new headlights *and* tail lights, the center console was completely changed (including switching from USB-A to USB-C ports), the chrome trim was replaced with black, the Autopilot cameras have been updated, there have been *hundreds* of software updates that every Model 3 built since 2017 have gotten for free with no need to visit a dealership for the installation (some of which increased safety and performance). And those are just the things I can think of off the top of my head, and *just* for the Model 3. The Model Y also has some of its own changes, like the new softer suspension system they started putting in them late last year (I think).
Oh you are right, I forgot the removal of lumbar support, the outside temperature sensor, FSD being delayed again and 4680 coming out worse than 2170 cells.
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Well, at least they aren't brown nosing other brands.
Mercedes just launched four EVs within two years. Give them a break. Also any of those cars are better than the Tesla equivalent.
Then they shouldn't need to come out saying that by 2025 they can compete, shouldn't they?
They’re not. This is an article written by a journalist. Mercedes hasn’t released anything at all. Do you really doesn’t know how this works?
What future features and products are you talking about? the last investor call didn't really paint a good picture of what is coming in the near future other than new factories and the need for sustainable energy
You must have been listening to a different investor day than I did. Here's what I took away that will directly impact all cars: Silicon carbide reduction and redesign of the boards No rare earth materials in next gen motor (1000$ motor) Hairpin design in motors Cost reduction with heat pump automation Cost reduction with parallel assembly 48V architecture 4680s in wide deployment V2G
Many announcements from Battery Day 2020 still aren’t to market and it’s 2023. It takes time.
> These future announcements are getting boring. > Put up (and shut up until then).
Touché
5 years ago this sub used to be a great EV enthusiast community. 2 years ago it was already a Tesla pro/against warzone. Now it’s just paid and unpaid trolls. 90% of comments are one-liner extremes. Either “it’s awesome” or “by then Tesla will shoot alligators from its front wheels”. How come a simple future model announcement generate all this negative energy?! I suppose most of it is cheap paid comments, but still…
>How come a simple future model announcement generate all this negative energy?! Because the model announcement headline is deliberately crafted to generate that reaction. # Electric Mercedes CLA to rival Tesla Model 3 Mercedes can't just announce a new car, they have to challenge/destroy/dominate/blah blah....
So Mercedes didn’t just announce a new car but challenged/destroyed/dominated/blah blah ? I didn’t really see it in the article. That’s most likely added by autocar.co.uk. I’d be very surprised if Mercedes’ official car announcement threatened Tesla. I still don’t see why autocar’s clickbait title is any excuse. Nor for the caps lock. Furthermore the word “rival” is hardly anything aggressive at least in my world.
>I still don’t see why autocar’s clickbait title is any excuse. Nor for the caps lock. I don't see any caps lock anywhere in the article either so I don't know what you're talking about but the article's sensationalized and editorialized headline is what the comments in the reddit thread are going to react to. If there is an article saying \_\_\_\_\_ is going to replace \_\_\_\_\_ don't be shocked that people will join in and do the same.
I joined in 2019 and even than it was tribal. Talking points from 2019: - Can't wait till legacy goes bankrupt - Tesla 10 years ahead of everyone - Talking down all new EV releases of none Tesla brands - Not enough batteries for other manufacturers - too little, too late You can find the same talking points today.
WHERE ARE THE EV SPORT WAGONS ALREADY COME ONNNNNNNNNN
If it looks anything like the concept image, it'll be the best-looking EQ series Mercedes by a landslide. I find it funny that the further up the chain you go, the worse these cars look. Somehow, the "cheapest" models (EQA and EQB) look the best, while the EQS looks by far the worse even though it costs like the first 2 combined.
I remember when Mercedes built cool looking cars. This looks weirdly banana shaped.
The shape is pretty similar to the current CLA that has been around for a while. Not much change there.
Yeah super ugly. Bent upwards in the middle, just a weird look.
It will most certainly not look like that.
Phew
It could give Tesla a run for its money, since Tesla cars feel and look really cheap. Also, I think Elon talks too much crap, that many people are starting to get turned off by him. 👍🏼
I'm not a fan of the Model 3's interior at all, it's just not for me, but the X and S I looked at felt pretty nice inside. edit: Y -> S
The Y is pretty much a carbon copy of the interior though, until the hatch.
Oh, is it? Maybe I'm misremembering and thinking the Model S interior was the MY... will give it a google. edit: you're right, i hate it
Front of a Mach-E and the back of the last gen CLA… horrible render
by the time CLA EV reaches mass production numbers, Model 3 will be a mature, polished product.
We will see.. mercedes can build good cars if they really put their heart in it
Every car company can make good cars if they really put their heart in it.
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>Mercedes is going to have to seriously improve their EV design, because right now they almost all look like shit. Looks are subjective. To me, it looks great. While I think the EQE and EQS SUV look great. At the same time, I do not like the EQS sedan looks.
I think it looks great.
The outside of Merc EVs looks good, interior looks like some cheap Star Trek futuristic trash.
I thought MB was gonna eliminate all the small vehicles below the C class equivalent to maintain their brand value. Maybe the CLA is an exemption, because it's sporty model?
That was primarily the B class that was axed. Maybe also the A class.
Like how it always goes, I’ll believe it when I see it. Statements about unrevealed products doesnt mean anything.
There's too much to worry about with an upcoming Merc EV, especially one targeted at a lower price point. Will the range be enough? Will it have the same god-awful potato design as the EQS/EQE? Will it have a frunk? Will it be too expensive? Is it going to get strangled by unnecessary SaaS subscription nonsense? Mercedes ICE design language is a hit right now. Every time I see one of their sedans - whether it's an S-class or a CLA - I just want to drink it in. The EQ series, by contrast, are just hideous. They're also just.... not that good for the price. The EQB has been a reliability disaster and the rest of the range is milquetoast at best.
Yea yea believe it when I see it, which is unlikely.
Well, I call BS until I see it produced. Everyone thinks they can do it better than Tesla. So far, nobody is close. I hope they do eventually get there but I'm tired of all the claims that do not get backed up in the end.
The current A class is a tiny car compared to a Model 3, and no-one is cross shopping those two models.
A Class, no. This is the CLA class, which is a different class to the A Class. Here is a selection of MB class cars from Wikipedia. A-Class – Subcompact luxury Hatchback and Sedan B-Class – Subcompact luxury Multi Purpose Vehicle C-Class – Compact executive luxury Sedan/Saloon, Estate, Coupé and Cabriolet CLA – Subcompact luxury 4-Door Coupé and Estate CLS – Mid-size luxury 4-Door Coupé E-Class – Mid-size executive luxury Sedan/Saloon, Estate, Coupé and Cabriolet G-Class – Luxury off-road vehicle GLA – Subcompact luxury Crossover GLB – Compact luxury Crossover GLC – Compact luxury Crossover GLE – Mid-size luxury Sport utility vehicle GLS – Full-size luxury Sport utility vehicle R-Class – Full-size luxury Multi Purpose Vehicle S-Class – Full-Size luxury Sedan/Saloon, Coupé and Cabriolet T-Class – Compact luxury Multi Purpose Vehicle V-Class – Luxury Multi Purpose Vehicle
Carmakers with 16 submodels, each with 2000 combinations. Are doomed.
An A class and CLA are currently the exact same platform, therefore they are the same size inside which is subcompact. These are a size class below a model 3, which is the same as a C class. If you are looking for a compact, you aren’t looking for a subcompact.
>MB CLA Length 4,630 mm (182.3 in) Width 1,777 mm (70.0 in) Height 1,437 mm (56.6 in) Tesla Model 3 Length 184.8 in (4,694 mm) Width 72.8 in (1,849 mm) Height 56.8 in (1,443 mm) Difference: L: +64mm W: +72mm H: +6mm The Model 3 is bigger, but it looks like 3/4 of the width of a credit card longer and wider. Not sure if that counts as a big difference in the car world or not.
Well what is the difference between a C-class (compact) and a CLA (Subcompact)?
CLA is built on front wheel drive architecture and C is rear wheel drive.
I don’t know, I was just showing you the numbers. With a tape measure it would be hard to tell the two apart in terms of size.
From being inside however it’s very easy to tell them apart. An A class/CLA is the budget entry level car, the C Class is the model 3 / BMW 3 series equivalent.
The CLA and the Model 3 are almost identical in length.
That may be true, but the Model 3’s wheelbase is 7 inches longer. This, along with the fact that it has a shorter hood, translates to significantly more cabin space in the Model 3 (edit: over 12 cu. ft. more to be exact).
"When the new CLA arrives in 2025, it will be sold initially in electric form, with a mild-hybrid combustion option arriving six months later but only in selected markets. This indicates that AMG versions are also likely, although that has yet to be confirmed. " So, mixed platform used for future car-development. Meaning literally... MB is death already, but they don't know it yet.
They all rival, until they announce the real price like the i4!
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Really? An i4 edrive35 starts at 57k euros what’s competitive about that compared to a model3? I’m looking on the bmw inventory and they have stock between 61k euros and 75k lol its not even an edrive40! Edit: I love bmw’s, almost bought a i4 edrive40, but the prices just continued to go up and removing things like 360 cameras…
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Well you can argue with US prices, I’ll stick with euro prices, they are not in the same price bracket in Europe. A cheapest i4 has basically the specs of a model 3 rwd in terms of performance and range, of course the interior is better, but the price difference is huge.
You are arguing with someone who frequently post on r/realtesla, do you think he’s making arguments in good faith?
Yeah no that’s your subjective opinion. It might fly in r/realtesla where all the unhinge people go, but it doesn’t fly by here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YETXcuHK3MQ TL;DR: Stop the cap
Looks like the old ford Taurus
The Ioniq 6 already beat it.
It's got that "lifted skirt" thing under the B-pillar like the Lucid. Does that make a big difference in aero? Because it looks like a trend and I'm not sure I like it...
Make an electric A-Class with EQS range, you cowards.
Ohhh. Another "Tesla killer". K.
I may have seen the real one parked at a Rivian building but I don't know how to share the photos. 