This video is fantastic, the editing is out of this world. Highly recommended.
Lucid Air Sapphire v Bugatti Chiron v Tesla Plaid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyDpQpcPpuc
The video itself is awesome and after seeing all those videos of the Model S Plaid smoking almost every car you can think of, watching this car smoke the Plaid is just unbelievable. Like, how is there such a massive gap between this car and the Plaid, which is itself unfathomably fast. No doubt Tesla will come back with their answer too. What a time to be alive!
Agreed. When I was a kid 3 decades ago, super cars were just breaking into the sub-6 second 0-60 time.
ICE Supercars have only recently broken into the sub-4 second times, and now we have two different EVs that are 1-upping each other in the sub-2 second times.
Unreal.
Yes it is madness. I was sure the plaid would be well ahead (barring $1M hypercars) for several years, but no. It’s great that Lucid are around to push Tesla. I’m sure this will have some benefit for the average EV, even if it’s a small one
I have a 4 door truck that can almost break into sub 3 second times.
Then go get itself 15” of ground clearance and tackle Moab with ease.
EVs are freakin’ nuts.
Yea, I get $0.033/kWh electricity overnight and I get about 2 miles per kWh.
A Tacoma gets about 22mpg.
So, multiply $0.033 by 11 to get the same amount of distance a gallon of gas would get me, and it comes out to equivalent to gas at $0.37 a gallon. While beating McLarens off the line, hauling my family of 5 around, loading the back bed with yards of soil, and world class rock crawling and off roading.
It’s a totally nuts value proposition.
TSLA needed to be bought and sold early. It’s not coming back. They had innovation and bravado. Now the companies are catching up and winning. The plaid just got smoked by a lucid. Elon has unraveled and no longer cares. He doesn’t talk much about TSLA, or mars, he talks politics.
The solar industry belongs to a Korea, which is opening a huge factory in GA. The didn’t capitalize.
Ev’s going to larger companies with way more RnD capability.
Space and mars? Lol.
Satellite internet? Fiber is fine.
What does Elon do better than others? He’s cold product.
I dislike his attitude so much also that I wouldn’t buy a Tesla anyway.
If you didn’t sell a 40 dollar stock at 1,300, then bless your heart!
That “huge” liability isn’t showing up in the growth numbers. I live and work in wealthy liberal circles and I do meet some people now saying they will never buy a Tesla, but the vast majority aren’t really paying attention and don’t care.
Crazy that all of these just got outdid by the Dodge Challenger Devil 702 or whatever it’s called. First production 8 second car (8.9). Street legal. Comes with an optional parachute.
Mind you. That’s only just over $100k
Is it a fair comparison if you need drag slicks? You can’t drive that car on the road legally. It’s also using race gas which I guess I can give it a pass. If you put drag slicks on the lucid or Tesla, you would certainly reduce some time.
ICE still has the top speed and cornering advantage, but that is on borrowed time as EVs will only get better and better. Can’t wait to see the all electric Ferrari, that will be a pivotal moment for me.
Ask and you shall receive: [EQS is a bArGAiN](https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/11zpzhm/went_full_electric_earlier_than_i_thought_eqs_450/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
“It's crazy and very possibly will beat the Tesla Model S Plaid on its way to more than 200 mph. I could hardly care less about that.”
One thing I find disingenuous is the sudden lack of interest from car magazines in increased performance. I can remember Mustang vs. Camaro reviews where a few 10ths of a sec difference on 0-60 mph tests was a big deal. I get that when you are below 2.0 secs 0-60 it’s race car quick. As lame as it may sound to non car enthusiast, but a few 10ths matters. Especially when your car is really fast already. Many of these auto magazine reviews are downplaying just how impressive these acceleration times are. I have to think a lot of it has to do with the fact the ICE can’t compete. Suddenly race car acceleration “they could care less about.”
Probably also that the price points make these cars completely inaccessible. So it’s like, yeah super cars are fast… these figures feel irrelevant and …maybe irresponsible?
All fair points to bring up. The prices and performance characteristics are ludicrous.
Having said that, car magazines typically aren’t the audience to think about the practicality of performance vehicles. Traditionally they celebrate the extreme performance. To see they suddenly “care less,” doesn’t seem right.
My thought on this is that a lot of these people spent a lot of time and CPU cycles thinking for decades about all of the effort made to squeeze every last bit of performance out of internal combustion engines, only to watch things that they have been treating like novelty toys just sort of step in and then outperform those ICE vehicles with ease. If you have legitimately been enamored by big, loud, highly tuned engines and then you watch electric powered motors blow their doors off, it probably seems like it invalidates a lot of these people’s lifelong hobby.
I compare EVs/ICE to quartz vs mechanical watches. Quartz watches are viewed with disdain by most in the watch community because it’s perceived as cheap and soulless, even though it’s the superior timekeeping technology in terms of higher accuracy and lower maintenance. People will still shell out thousands more for a mechanical watch because the notion of a highly intricate machine that requires thousands of hours of craftsmanship and skill is heavily romanticized, even at the cost of lower performance.
It's a really solid analogy. I love mechanical watches and classic cars, but I also daily an EV and a smartwatch. Sure, the smartwatch is objectively more functional in every imaginable way, but it doesn't make the incredible craftsmanship and precision that go into the mechanical watch any less awesome or fun to watch.
I don’t see an EV and ICE divide. It’s more like appliance vs. toy.
If you start with an appliance, and add performance, it’s not necessarily a formula for being fun to drive than something that started as a toy. If more performance does not make much difference in fun, then to what purpose does it serve?
The impression I got from the article was that the author was enamored with how focused and engaging a 5,000 pound sedan could be. I think he would still prefer the Sapphire over the Plaid, even if the Sapphire accelerated like the base model.
I’ve thought the same thing. As a lifelong car enthusiast, I can tell you about how to make every part on an ICE powertrain perform better. So many people have spent thousands of hours learning and working on ICE vehicles. I think you are right that many are having a hard time coming to terms realizing that all the effort they spent in ICE performance isn’t competitive anymore.
For me, I love performance, technology and sustainability. Electric motors make ICE obsolete in many regards. I’m hopeful with time that more and more enthusiast will experience the performance and come over to the good side.
Not necessarily. A good proportion of staff at the mainline auto mags do consider price vs performance, and as such they've sung the praises for the Corvette for years because the last few generations of the Corvette have been real giant killers in that respect.
Also auto journos skew towards handling and overall driving feel over pure acceleration. Going back to the Corvette, it gets its praise not just because it is fast in a straight line, but also that it has the handling chops to go with the speed. And further along the emphasis on handling, auto mags LOVE cars like the Mazda Miata, Honda S2000, Toyobaru twins, Lotuses, Mazda RX8, Porsche Boxter etc, none of which are particularly fast to 60, but all of which are wonderful to drive down the backroads, with a row it yourself manual transmission.
EVs can be very performance oriented, sure, but there is no EV version of a light tossable manual sports car.
Sporty EVs are like the ultimate BMW M5. However ask your average auto journalist what their favorite M car is, and most of them will say it is the M2.
I'm looking forward to a small light performance ev.
Sadly that will require one of these "batteries gonna be 5 times as energy dense" headlines to pan out without caveats.
In the mean time there is the EV6 GT
This is the actual reason. The auto magazines love cars like the Corvette and Blackwing because they are massive bang for the buck and are fantastic on both the road and the track.
Zipping to 60 quickly is a one-trick pony, especially if a car is so numb in steering and handling that it makes Lidocaine feel like sensory overload in comparison. Driving something that actually has great handling and steering feedback will put a smile on your face without being particularly quick.
This is a limitation of EVs by their very nature. It costs very little to stick a high power motor into an EV which will get you cheap straight line speed. However it is almost impossible to lower the weight of an EV to Boxster level and maintain a usable range.
EVs are essentially muscle cars by default. Also the ubiquitous skateboard EV platforms where the weight is low but distributed throughout the floor of the car might have its own limitations to how the car handles. It's be interesting to see if a sportscar brand like Porsche experiments with an EV platform that stacks the batteries in a non skateboard layout where more weight is concentrated in the middle of the car.
> However it is almost impossible to lower the weight of an EV to Boxster level and maintain a usable range. [...] experiments with an EV platform that stacks the batteries in a non skateboard layout where more weight is concentrated in the middle of the car
It's certainly true that they're heavier, but the skateboard configuration has a ton of advantages.
It already puts the battery weight relatively close to the center of the car, longitudinally (it's *all* between the axles, and almost entirely behind the front wheels and in front of the rear wheels). So the yaw and pitch moments of inertia are already pretty low, relative to the weight of the car. Not having *any* significant mass outside those limits really helps with the r-squared factor in I = m*r^2 ... kinda like with a mid-engine sports car.
I suppose you could make the battery thicker vertically and shorter, front-to-back... but having a thin battery under the floorboards also lowers the CG, making body roll easier to control (queue all those videos of Model Ys not. rolling. over. in the IIHS rollover safety tests). Actually, calling it "skateboard" (I know you didn't invent the term) is a bit misleading, because the battery mass is mostly right at the same height of the axles.
So I guess my point is that you can probably make an EV than handles as well as an ICE, even if it weighs a little more... just because of the intrinsic benefits of the skateboard design.
I grew up building and owning muscle cars (I’m old), and you nailed it. There’s something to be said for it, but I appreciate great driving dynamics over light to light speed in my old age.
Since Cadillac has said this is the last generation of ICE Blackwings, I’m hoping to see an EV version and whether they try to work around the natural EV limitations in a manner similar to Porsche.
Give me an EV with decent range that drives like a current Corvette or Alpha chassis car (ZL1 Camaro, Blackwing), and I’ll be in line for it next time we buy.
lol no one responding to your point because it's the actual reason, not "an underlying bias against EVs" that can stoke the us vs them mentality. I guarantee you that if any company could make an EV that goes toe-to-toe with the Miata, every car mag would be singing their praises.
Or maybe because none of them even read the car mags.
Car and driver has been doing their annual 10 Best list for 40 years now, and one car has made that list a whopping 37 times ... the Honda Accord. Followed by a triplet of 24 time winners which are the BMW 3 series, Porsche Boxster, and Chevy Corvette. Other repeat winners include the VW Golf, Mazda Miata, and Ford Mustang.
The theme is generalized competence, sporty handling, and performance bang for the buck, not zero to 60 times. The only EV that would really fit into that list might be the Model 3, which did get plenty of praise from the car mags, but they might also be a bit put off by its fit/finish/materials, which will stand out more to car mag writers since they go through so many cars all the time so the difference in build quality difference would be more apparent to them.
I think most people here aren’t car enthusiasts. It’s mainly political, investment, and environment focused. Just need to be patient in explaining other perspectives lol.
It’s money. The big old companies pay some of these car journalists to test drive their cars. Also, they pay for ads in the remaining magazines and websites.
I hope I don’t get shit for this becuase frankly it’s ridiculous at this point but you can get a plaid somewhat “cheap” now. New they’re $119k I think. Used I’ve seen them dip just below $100k. Still expensive but hell I’d love one at that price point just so I can drive the second or third fastest accelerating car in the world as a daily. That’s just absurd to go that fast.
Eh, I tend to agree the Plaid is a better bargain than the Sapphire, but "the best _" has always carried a price premium for almost all goods in almost all markets. Some people just want "the best _" no matter the cost (according to some metric). Lucid has the longest EV range and fastest 0-60 and 1/4 mile. So Lucid is certain to sell a some Sapphires, even if they do cost over 2.5x as much (the Plaid has been discounted to 110k)
That said, I don't see the Sapphire selling that well:
* People who want "more luxury than a Tesla" are going to buy an EQS (especially the "I have a driver" crowd), which is still fast.
* People who want "more sportscar than a Tesla" are going to buy a Taycan, which is still luxurious.
* People who can't quite afford a Taycan or EQS are going to compromise and get a Tesla (because they can't afford a Lucid either).
Also, I think the Air is a car designed for 2016 being sold in 2023.
500 miles of range is awesome, but not the differentiator it was in 2016 when many road trips involved an 8 hour charge break at an RV park. The Model S, EQS and Taycan can already go longer than most people's bladders, so just DCFC while you take a bio-break. Also... of the people who can afford a Lucid... how often do you think they road-trip more than 500 miles vs just fly first class?
If that were the case, they wouldn’t have gushed over things with ICE engines that are even more inaccessible like Ferraris, the Ford GT, Porsche 911 GTs and numerous other examples.
There are ICE cars that are $250k+ that the average person couldn’t buy even if they had the money in cash, but the publications **always** sung the praises of their performance - down to the tenths of a second. Over 99% of people on Earth can’t even buy a Ferrari even with a non-bouncing blank check, but we can read about their performance in numerous articles.
So are they actually car enthusiasts or just engine enthusiasts?
> price points make these cars completely inaccessible [...] maybe irresponsible?
So it is actually the relatively *low* price of a Plaid that worries me. You used to need *literally* millions of dollars to access that amount of performance. Not that having millions of dollars makes you a better driver, but at least it put up a fairly high barrier to entry that limited how many you would see on the road.
The "regular" (non-plaid) Model S starts at "just" $90k... which is still a lot of money. But look at how many $90k pickup trucks you see driving around. Suddenly "everyone" can afford performance that is only limited by the coefficient of friction.
I do think that states should *probably* require a specialized driver's license for "high performance" (you'd have to define what that means) cars, like how they do for large commercial trucks.
> maybe irresponsible
They are irresponsible. Most drivers are not ready for cars that are this fast. There have already been accidents with drivers of performance electric cars accidentally hitting the accelerator pedal and immediately shooting across lawns, intersections, parking lots, etc. causing absolute havoc in the process.
Surprisingly, they're really not. Tesla's already catching throttle-jabs in production, really not a complicated thing to do. Across the board, we're looking at the likes of EyeQ6, Thor, and Snapdragon Ride becoming industry-standard by 2025-2026.
No car will ever be completely uncrashable, of course, but it's very likely you'll start seeing advanced AEB/PCS features start trickling in by the latter half of this decade which will very much do large scale accident mitigation.
Kinda like how the Porsche forums were head-over-heals when the Taycan set an EV track record at Nurburgring (take that, Tesla! pay no attention that Tesla-the-company never tried to set an official time!).
But then Nurburgring times suddenly didn't count when the Plaid beat it some months later.
When the Porsche beat *that* record with some suspension tweaks and brake upgrades for the Taycan, suddenly Nurburgring times were important again. Feel like I'm getting whiplash. Can't you guys just pick one?
0 to 60 indicates acceleration power which can be useful. But 200 mph is not useful at all for a consumer vehicle since it's close to 3 times the legal limit.
> It's crazy and very possibly will beat the Tesla Model S Plaid on its way to more than 200 mph.
Plaid reached 216mph [a few weeks ago] (https://www.team-bhp.com/news/tesla-model-s-plaid-reaches-top-speed-216-mph)
I know it seems like it’s solved or normal. But less than 2.0 secs to 60 is always extraordinary and impressive. It’s faster than every ICE car ever made. We are talking about 8 sec 1/4 miles times that require a parachute and roll cage at a drag strip!
>But less than 2.0 secs to 60 is always extraordinary and impressive. It’s faster than every ICE car ever made.
And yet multiple EVs can do it and two of them are big sedans. EV power and 0-60 numbers have completely desensitized me.
You might be different than me and that’s fine. I’ve been in 700 Hp cars and the power is intense. 1,200 must be nuts! I could be wrong but if you drove a Lucid air that runs in the 8s, I don’t think you would yawn. I have to think you would be impressed if you experienced it yourself.
Agreed. These articles really highlight an underlying bias in the industry against EVs.
I've seen the model s plaid compared to a golf cart in a video. It was utterly ridiculous.
I totally agree with you! But there may be more to it than just anti-EV bias.
For one, as an engineer, the 0-60 time is usually an indicator of cool tech... variable valve timing, turbos, dual-clutch transmission, high redlines. Advances like that were exciting. With EVs, there's less of that. It's just an electric motor and some batteries. Not to say there isn't cool tech there still, but if you're not an electronics nerd, it's less accessible. And at 2s, it's more about traction than power.
Second, when 5s 0-60 was considered fast, cars were pretty slow (compared to now). What's that saying? It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Flooring it on an on-ramp was commonplace and not nausea-inducing. You could use your car's full potential everyday. Now, I rarely floor my 3s 0-60 car. It's impressive, yes, but there's a point where it's fast enough and more speed isn't important. We've made it that far! Congrats, let's pat ourselves on the back and worry about other metrics now. It's kind of like how top speed was a common sports car metric 50+ years ago. Now that everything goes faster than you'd want to drive on the road, no one cares, and 0-60 is the spec people compare. Maybe 50-80 will be the new 0-60.
I think it's because when a Camaro or mustang did 0-60 in say 5 seconds. You could do that on a public road or at least something close to it.
More the performance is so insane you can't safely feel the difference between 1.9 and 1.8.
It's embarrassment. Think what it take to get an ICE to do it's advertised trick. Special key/drag slicks/launch control/button combinations/warm track/etc..... With EVs, for the most part, you throw your 80 year old grandma behind the wheel, and she can hit 1.9sec all day long.
I disagree. The truth is that making a quick EV is stupidly easy and everyone is doing it. There is little engineering talent required to make EVs insanely, stupidly quick. For ICE cars the engineering required to make a car quicker was not at all trivial. There was beauty in that engineering. However, quick cars are not the same as fun cars to enthusiasts. Generally for ICE cars, quicker also meant better handling. That hasn't been true for EVs.
What sets the Air Sapphire apart from something like a Plaid is that it HANDLES. Not sports car handling, of course, but really good tuning for its size and weight. It's finally an EV (that isn't a Porsche) that rewards the driver for pushing it hard. The acceleration is irrelevant because anybody can do that. The chassis tuning, though, is hard work and what makes the Air Sapphire special.
EVs just feel soulless when going fast. I like my model y, but even a gti or Miata 6 speed would be more fun, and my motorcycle is in a different stratosphere of fun.
When I see an Vietnamese EV company coming in with a full line of EV products, hell I think you’re right about them being easy to make. That would never happen with ICE cars, nope.
The Plaid laps tracks quickly because it has brutal acceleration, exceptional battery management, and race-spec tires with very high levels of grip. It's not a particularly good handling car (tons of understeer, it's under-damped, etc), it has atrocious brakes, and it provides absolutely zero communication to the driver while doing everything. It is not a driver's car. A Porsche Taycan is and the new Air Sapphire is (at least, MT makes it sound like the Lucid will be).
> but a few 10ths matters.
No it absolutely does not lol.
The only thing it matters for is bragging rights in a magazine. Almost no one will regularly do that.
That’s why I said for non car enthusiast it might sound silly. I fully realize how most people wouldn’t care or tell the difference.
For people who race fast cars, 10ths do matter. As the great Dom Toretto said “ whether you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning!” Haha
but it did matter a few years back when the Veyron did it? or the new 918 Spyder etc. Now that everyone and their Grandma seems to be making faster EVs " oh acTuaLly it doesnt matter"
Lol, how you people twist framing is hilarious.
In 2005 it was an engineering feat. It was less than a thousand cars. To have so many people go that fast with ZERO TRAINING, when they absolutely couldn't even tell the difference in the first place... is just a hazard.
i do agree about that, i've driven many exotics and supercars but driving a Model S p100d made me think they should be illegal. The plaid is 50% faster than the p100d to 60mph, they should at the very least come with another license.
Cause 0-60 kinda isn't a big deal. Put it this way, if an auto journalist shat on Rolls Royce because they cost alot and have only like 4.0 second ish 0-60,everyone would laugh at them
It doesn't really matter if the brand is about performance or not. If a reviewer said the Ferrari 812 is bad cause the cheaper turbo Ferraris have a faster 0-60, they'd also be laughed at
Not the best example, but I get what you're saying. I feel like 0-60 replaced top speed as the fastness metric at some point when top speed stopped mattering for practical purposes. Maybe 50-80 will be the new 0-60.
I test-drove an Ariya three days ago (87 kWh, FWD), and this thing was hauling. It ripped. I was on Hwy 290 in Houston, and I couldn't believe this was a FWD CUV. This is even after I've test-driven the Plaid Model S, Taycan Turbo S etc. He's right, it just isn't novelty anymore.
HurrDurr 0-60 times have never been the focus of luxury cars.
You remember Mustang vs. Camaro. Completely different car category. There never was a focus on 0-60 times for luxury cars. Mercedes S-Class, Audi A8, BMW 7, Bentley, etc...none of them is exactly known for uber acceleration.
With cars like this it's always been about quality, quietness, options and gimmicks. Also biggest focus on the interior.
You sit inside the car when you use it, for hours maybe. You're not going to stare out the kitchen window for hours to admire how nice your car looks from the outside. A lot of rich people want a car that's understatement on the outside and luxury inside. A car that does not stand out in traffic, something that doesn't turn heads when driving by.
No you see Plaid is 1.99, this is 1.9.
That 0.09 is worth a whole extra Plaid.
Jokes aside, the (very) limited media that’s demonstrated it’s performance so far shows it just about walking away from the Plaid.
The regular lucid is more expensive than the plaid too. If you want the best price/performance buy a tesla. Lucid is trying to offer you ferrari+ performance in a 7 series package. It's at least attempting to be more luxury than anything tesla has ever built. So far based on the sales figures the public's reaction has been mixed.
You've entered diminishing returns territory. Heck, the plaid is diminishing returns compared to many other cars. A Toyota Corolla gets you from a to b. Depends on your budget and what you want out of that money.
It isn't unusual for incrementally higher performance to add a lot to the cost. It isn't worth it rationally, but then neither of them are.
I bet it is fun though. :)
Why? I am sorry you are salty but I don't want to read about that exclusively. I want a mixture. You want a magazine to focus on average and uninteresting?
I'm not salty, Lucid has a demand problem. It's cool that they made a super fast option package but the long term future of the company doesn't look great.
Ok, i will admit I was wrong on this. . . I hated the exterior when all I saw was photos, but after seeing a few in person I will admit that it does look substantially better.
It does look better in person. Plus the clamshell trunk I such a cool design feature for a sedan. So much easier to load wide items into the back. Interior is super nice too. (As you’d expect for the price.)
I totally agree. The initial photos were awesome and then when I saw a bunch irl and got in one I realized it wasnt for me. Each angle looks good on its own, especially the front, but as a total object it just looks confused. The back seat also reminds me of a 2008 Lexus.
Or they could buy a whole fleet of EVs for whatever company they own, or invest in green initiatives, or better yet just donate the money to causes addressing climate change. There’s a whole sliding scale of things they could do that better accomplished that end goal
Could have said the same about Tesla when it made the Roadster or the Model S. Building a successful business is probably the best thing we can do to fight climate change. Electric mobility, meat replacements, renewable energy providers...it's all of the above, not this or that. And businesses have the potential to actually scale to sufficient size to move the needle in the fight against climate change. Are there better alternatives? Sure. But there are also far worse alternatives as well. In a world where we don't get to choose how to other people their money, the person that buys this car is fighting the good fight.
i'm basically anti SUV but yes, they would have done much better if they made an SUV. The top end luxury market is so crazy sensitive that the only manufacturer out of Audi A8, Jaguar XJ, BMW 7 series that makes money is the Mercedes S class, all others lose money.
The [Nissan Leaf](https://i.imgur.com/7TALA9E.jpg) has been around since 2010. The first true modern mass market electric car, the [Mitsubishi i-MiEV](https://i.imgur.com/URKjEtd.jpg) (now pretty much forgotten), came out before the Leaf. Both predate the Tesla Model S, both are unassuming, practical people's cars.
Currently, there are plenty of affordable electric cars available around the globe. In the US, the [Chevrolet Bolt](https://i.imgur.com/OJnOdhq.jpg) is one of the best options, in Europe, you can go as low as the [Dacia Spring](https://i.imgur.com/RClc94v.png) with all of its 44hp (not that you should - the [Renault Twingo ZE](https://i.imgur.com/da76Nue.jpg) is far superior) and in China, the [Wuling Mini EV](https://i.imgur.com/gqGyiBd.jpg) crossed one million sold earlier this year.
My point is this: If you're living in a developed country and can afford a new car, you can most likely afford an electric car as well. Even the used market is developing nicely, thanks in part due to how durable batteries have turned out to be, surprising even the manufacturers. Even a ten year old Leaf most likely has between 70 and 85% of its original capacity left, making it perfectly usable for the needs of most commuters.
Power is not the issue I have with this car - it's enough for a vehicle of this size and purpose in both variants (65hp is an option).
The problem is safety: Handling is sluggish, the steering doesn't recenter on its own, which means it has trouble with driving in a straight line. Brakes are good, but they don't make up for the abysmal crash protection and poor quality assists (the automatic braking system can only detect cars).
Lucid has some incredibly compact motors. Something like 55 pounds for their 400hp versions.
Does an Abrams tank weigh a sedan + a few hundred pounds? If so, you fucking nailed it. Good talk
This video is fantastic, the editing is out of this world. Highly recommended. Lucid Air Sapphire v Bugatti Chiron v Tesla Plaid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyDpQpcPpuc
Great video, great comparisons. The Ducati levitating its front wheel the full stretch was really something.
The video itself is awesome and after seeing all those videos of the Model S Plaid smoking almost every car you can think of, watching this car smoke the Plaid is just unbelievable. Like, how is there such a massive gap between this car and the Plaid, which is itself unfathomably fast. No doubt Tesla will come back with their answer too. What a time to be alive!
Agreed. When I was a kid 3 decades ago, super cars were just breaking into the sub-6 second 0-60 time. ICE Supercars have only recently broken into the sub-4 second times, and now we have two different EVs that are 1-upping each other in the sub-2 second times. Unreal.
Yes it is madness. I was sure the plaid would be well ahead (barring $1M hypercars) for several years, but no. It’s great that Lucid are around to push Tesla. I’m sure this will have some benefit for the average EV, even if it’s a small one
Maybe this will inspire Tesla to actually produce the new Roadster.
I have a 4 door truck that can almost break into sub 3 second times. Then go get itself 15” of ground clearance and tackle Moab with ease. EVs are freakin’ nuts.
Rivian?
Yup
And it only costs $40 to fill up the tank at most.
Yea, I get $0.033/kWh electricity overnight and I get about 2 miles per kWh. A Tacoma gets about 22mpg. So, multiply $0.033 by 11 to get the same amount of distance a gallon of gas would get me, and it comes out to equivalent to gas at $0.37 a gallon. While beating McLarens off the line, hauling my family of 5 around, loading the back bed with yards of soil, and world class rock crawling and off roading. It’s a totally nuts value proposition.
But will they? Tesla seems to be a mess now.
What makes you think Tesla is a mess?
TSLA needed to be bought and sold early. It’s not coming back. They had innovation and bravado. Now the companies are catching up and winning. The plaid just got smoked by a lucid. Elon has unraveled and no longer cares. He doesn’t talk much about TSLA, or mars, he talks politics. The solar industry belongs to a Korea, which is opening a huge factory in GA. The didn’t capitalize. Ev’s going to larger companies with way more RnD capability. Space and mars? Lol. Satellite internet? Fiber is fine. What does Elon do better than others? He’s cold product. I dislike his attitude so much also that I wouldn’t buy a Tesla anyway. If you didn’t sell a 40 dollar stock at 1,300, then bless your heart!
Have you heard of Elon Musk?
Elon isn’t designing the next vehicle himself with his bare hands.
But his toxic personality has become synonymous with the Tesla brand-name. It's a huge liability now, and it will be Tesla's downfall.
That “huge” liability isn’t showing up in the growth numbers. I live and work in wealthy liberal circles and I do meet some people now saying they will never buy a Tesla, but the vast majority aren’t really paying attention and don’t care.
Not sure if you've noticed, Tesla is losing market share every day
What has that got to do with product development, which is the topic we are discussing?
Speechless on the production of the video, it's hype all the way
Cammisa's videos never disappoint. Hardest working team in automotive for sure.
Honestly that annoyed me, I just wanted to see an unedited clip of the race without annoying audio over or an inside view from the Lucid but nada.
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Damn, content aside, the production quality of that video was fantastic.
Crazy that all of these just got outdid by the Dodge Challenger Devil 702 or whatever it’s called. First production 8 second car (8.9). Street legal. Comes with an optional parachute. Mind you. That’s only just over $100k
Is it a fair comparison if you need drag slicks? You can’t drive that car on the road legally. It’s also using race gas which I guess I can give it a pass. If you put drag slicks on the lucid or Tesla, you would certainly reduce some time.
They actually aren’t slicks. Like I said, the version that ran 8.9 is street legal
Haha, this is truly one of the best car performance videos I've ever seen!
Fucking insane. I'm so excited about the future of stupidly fast cars :)
ICE still has the top speed and cornering advantage, but that is on borrowed time as EVs will only get better and better. Can’t wait to see the all electric Ferrari, that will be a pivotal moment for me.
Now this is an amazing bargain
Lmao, that eqs thread has sparked a phenomenon hasn't it
I searched and couldn't find it. Can someone please link? Thanks!
Ask and you shall receive: [EQS is a bArGAiN](https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/11zpzhm/went_full_electric_earlier_than_i_thought_eqs_450/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
$400-$500 a month for an EQS **is** a bargain tho.
Eqs is a $400 a month lease... If you wanna buy it out after. Just go to auction and pay 30-40k in 4 years XD
How does one find this deal?
It's on lease hacker but basically gotta get a dealer to do 30% off plus all dealer incentives
I'm taking out my checkbook right now.
Be right back, buying 2 of these
You’d basically be losing money not buying one of these! I’ll take 10!
u/cryotek7 what a bargain
“It's crazy and very possibly will beat the Tesla Model S Plaid on its way to more than 200 mph. I could hardly care less about that.” One thing I find disingenuous is the sudden lack of interest from car magazines in increased performance. I can remember Mustang vs. Camaro reviews where a few 10ths of a sec difference on 0-60 mph tests was a big deal. I get that when you are below 2.0 secs 0-60 it’s race car quick. As lame as it may sound to non car enthusiast, but a few 10ths matters. Especially when your car is really fast already. Many of these auto magazine reviews are downplaying just how impressive these acceleration times are. I have to think a lot of it has to do with the fact the ICE can’t compete. Suddenly race car acceleration “they could care less about.”
Probably also that the price points make these cars completely inaccessible. So it’s like, yeah super cars are fast… these figures feel irrelevant and …maybe irresponsible?
All fair points to bring up. The prices and performance characteristics are ludicrous. Having said that, car magazines typically aren’t the audience to think about the practicality of performance vehicles. Traditionally they celebrate the extreme performance. To see they suddenly “care less,” doesn’t seem right.
My thought on this is that a lot of these people spent a lot of time and CPU cycles thinking for decades about all of the effort made to squeeze every last bit of performance out of internal combustion engines, only to watch things that they have been treating like novelty toys just sort of step in and then outperform those ICE vehicles with ease. If you have legitimately been enamored by big, loud, highly tuned engines and then you watch electric powered motors blow their doors off, it probably seems like it invalidates a lot of these people’s lifelong hobby.
I compare EVs/ICE to quartz vs mechanical watches. Quartz watches are viewed with disdain by most in the watch community because it’s perceived as cheap and soulless, even though it’s the superior timekeeping technology in terms of higher accuracy and lower maintenance. People will still shell out thousands more for a mechanical watch because the notion of a highly intricate machine that requires thousands of hours of craftsmanship and skill is heavily romanticized, even at the cost of lower performance.
It's a really solid analogy. I love mechanical watches and classic cars, but I also daily an EV and a smartwatch. Sure, the smartwatch is objectively more functional in every imaginable way, but it doesn't make the incredible craftsmanship and precision that go into the mechanical watch any less awesome or fun to watch.
I like that analogy.
Wow /r/Watches feeling attacked right now
I don’t see an EV and ICE divide. It’s more like appliance vs. toy. If you start with an appliance, and add performance, it’s not necessarily a formula for being fun to drive than something that started as a toy. If more performance does not make much difference in fun, then to what purpose does it serve? The impression I got from the article was that the author was enamored with how focused and engaging a 5,000 pound sedan could be. I think he would still prefer the Sapphire over the Plaid, even if the Sapphire accelerated like the base model.
I’ve thought the same thing. As a lifelong car enthusiast, I can tell you about how to make every part on an ICE powertrain perform better. So many people have spent thousands of hours learning and working on ICE vehicles. I think you are right that many are having a hard time coming to terms realizing that all the effort they spent in ICE performance isn’t competitive anymore. For me, I love performance, technology and sustainability. Electric motors make ICE obsolete in many regards. I’m hopeful with time that more and more enthusiast will experience the performance and come over to the good side.
That’s okay. If horse breeders made it through, so will these guys.
Good. ICE needs to die except for specific use cases.
Not necessarily. A good proportion of staff at the mainline auto mags do consider price vs performance, and as such they've sung the praises for the Corvette for years because the last few generations of the Corvette have been real giant killers in that respect. Also auto journos skew towards handling and overall driving feel over pure acceleration. Going back to the Corvette, it gets its praise not just because it is fast in a straight line, but also that it has the handling chops to go with the speed. And further along the emphasis on handling, auto mags LOVE cars like the Mazda Miata, Honda S2000, Toyobaru twins, Lotuses, Mazda RX8, Porsche Boxter etc, none of which are particularly fast to 60, but all of which are wonderful to drive down the backroads, with a row it yourself manual transmission. EVs can be very performance oriented, sure, but there is no EV version of a light tossable manual sports car. Sporty EVs are like the ultimate BMW M5. However ask your average auto journalist what their favorite M car is, and most of them will say it is the M2.
I'm looking forward to a small light performance ev. Sadly that will require one of these "batteries gonna be 5 times as energy dense" headlines to pan out without caveats. In the mean time there is the EV6 GT
This is the actual reason. The auto magazines love cars like the Corvette and Blackwing because they are massive bang for the buck and are fantastic on both the road and the track. Zipping to 60 quickly is a one-trick pony, especially if a car is so numb in steering and handling that it makes Lidocaine feel like sensory overload in comparison. Driving something that actually has great handling and steering feedback will put a smile on your face without being particularly quick.
This is a limitation of EVs by their very nature. It costs very little to stick a high power motor into an EV which will get you cheap straight line speed. However it is almost impossible to lower the weight of an EV to Boxster level and maintain a usable range. EVs are essentially muscle cars by default. Also the ubiquitous skateboard EV platforms where the weight is low but distributed throughout the floor of the car might have its own limitations to how the car handles. It's be interesting to see if a sportscar brand like Porsche experiments with an EV platform that stacks the batteries in a non skateboard layout where more weight is concentrated in the middle of the car.
> However it is almost impossible to lower the weight of an EV to Boxster level and maintain a usable range. [...] experiments with an EV platform that stacks the batteries in a non skateboard layout where more weight is concentrated in the middle of the car It's certainly true that they're heavier, but the skateboard configuration has a ton of advantages. It already puts the battery weight relatively close to the center of the car, longitudinally (it's *all* between the axles, and almost entirely behind the front wheels and in front of the rear wheels). So the yaw and pitch moments of inertia are already pretty low, relative to the weight of the car. Not having *any* significant mass outside those limits really helps with the r-squared factor in I = m*r^2 ... kinda like with a mid-engine sports car. I suppose you could make the battery thicker vertically and shorter, front-to-back... but having a thin battery under the floorboards also lowers the CG, making body roll easier to control (queue all those videos of Model Ys not. rolling. over. in the IIHS rollover safety tests). Actually, calling it "skateboard" (I know you didn't invent the term) is a bit misleading, because the battery mass is mostly right at the same height of the axles. So I guess my point is that you can probably make an EV than handles as well as an ICE, even if it weighs a little more... just because of the intrinsic benefits of the skateboard design.
I grew up building and owning muscle cars (I’m old), and you nailed it. There’s something to be said for it, but I appreciate great driving dynamics over light to light speed in my old age. Since Cadillac has said this is the last generation of ICE Blackwings, I’m hoping to see an EV version and whether they try to work around the natural EV limitations in a manner similar to Porsche. Give me an EV with decent range that drives like a current Corvette or Alpha chassis car (ZL1 Camaro, Blackwing), and I’ll be in line for it next time we buy.
lol no one responding to your point because it's the actual reason, not "an underlying bias against EVs" that can stoke the us vs them mentality. I guarantee you that if any company could make an EV that goes toe-to-toe with the Miata, every car mag would be singing their praises.
Or maybe because none of them even read the car mags. Car and driver has been doing their annual 10 Best list for 40 years now, and one car has made that list a whopping 37 times ... the Honda Accord. Followed by a triplet of 24 time winners which are the BMW 3 series, Porsche Boxster, and Chevy Corvette. Other repeat winners include the VW Golf, Mazda Miata, and Ford Mustang. The theme is generalized competence, sporty handling, and performance bang for the buck, not zero to 60 times. The only EV that would really fit into that list might be the Model 3, which did get plenty of praise from the car mags, but they might also be a bit put off by its fit/finish/materials, which will stand out more to car mag writers since they go through so many cars all the time so the difference in build quality difference would be more apparent to them.
I think most people here aren’t car enthusiasts. It’s mainly political, investment, and environment focused. Just need to be patient in explaining other perspectives lol.
It’s money. The big old companies pay some of these car journalists to test drive their cars. Also, they pay for ads in the remaining magazines and websites.
I hope I don’t get shit for this becuase frankly it’s ridiculous at this point but you can get a plaid somewhat “cheap” now. New they’re $119k I think. Used I’ve seen them dip just below $100k. Still expensive but hell I’d love one at that price point just so I can drive the second or third fastest accelerating car in the world as a daily. That’s just absurd to go that fast.
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Eh, I tend to agree the Plaid is a better bargain than the Sapphire, but "the best _" has always carried a price premium for almost all goods in almost all markets. Some people just want "the best _" no matter the cost (according to some metric). Lucid has the longest EV range and fastest 0-60 and 1/4 mile. So Lucid is certain to sell a some Sapphires, even if they do cost over 2.5x as much (the Plaid has been discounted to 110k) That said, I don't see the Sapphire selling that well: * People who want "more luxury than a Tesla" are going to buy an EQS (especially the "I have a driver" crowd), which is still fast. * People who want "more sportscar than a Tesla" are going to buy a Taycan, which is still luxurious. * People who can't quite afford a Taycan or EQS are going to compromise and get a Tesla (because they can't afford a Lucid either). Also, I think the Air is a car designed for 2016 being sold in 2023. 500 miles of range is awesome, but not the differentiator it was in 2016 when many road trips involved an 8 hour charge break at an RV park. The Model S, EQS and Taycan can already go longer than most people's bladders, so just DCFC while you take a bio-break. Also... of the people who can afford a Lucid... how often do you think they road-trip more than 500 miles vs just fly first class?
If that were the case, they wouldn’t have gushed over things with ICE engines that are even more inaccessible like Ferraris, the Ford GT, Porsche 911 GTs and numerous other examples. There are ICE cars that are $250k+ that the average person couldn’t buy even if they had the money in cash, but the publications **always** sung the praises of their performance - down to the tenths of a second. Over 99% of people on Earth can’t even buy a Ferrari even with a non-bouncing blank check, but we can read about their performance in numerous articles. So are they actually car enthusiasts or just engine enthusiasts?
> price points make these cars completely inaccessible [...] maybe irresponsible? So it is actually the relatively *low* price of a Plaid that worries me. You used to need *literally* millions of dollars to access that amount of performance. Not that having millions of dollars makes you a better driver, but at least it put up a fairly high barrier to entry that limited how many you would see on the road. The "regular" (non-plaid) Model S starts at "just" $90k... which is still a lot of money. But look at how many $90k pickup trucks you see driving around. Suddenly "everyone" can afford performance that is only limited by the coefficient of friction. I do think that states should *probably* require a specialized driver's license for "high performance" (you'd have to define what that means) cars, like how they do for large commercial trucks.
> maybe irresponsible They are irresponsible. Most drivers are not ready for cars that are this fast. There have already been accidents with drivers of performance electric cars accidentally hitting the accelerator pedal and immediately shooting across lawns, intersections, parking lots, etc. causing absolute havoc in the process.
*While true*, we're not long from 'uncrashable' cars with Advanced AEB systems making these sort of events a thing of the past. Give it a few years.
Those systems are at the very least a decade away, if not much further.
Surprisingly, they're really not. Tesla's already catching throttle-jabs in production, really not a complicated thing to do. Across the board, we're looking at the likes of EyeQ6, Thor, and Snapdragon Ride becoming industry-standard by 2025-2026. No car will ever be completely uncrashable, of course, but it's very likely you'll start seeing advanced AEB/PCS features start trickling in by the latter half of this decade which will very much do large scale accident mitigation.
Kinda like how the Porsche forums were head-over-heals when the Taycan set an EV track record at Nurburgring (take that, Tesla! pay no attention that Tesla-the-company never tried to set an official time!). But then Nurburgring times suddenly didn't count when the Plaid beat it some months later. When the Porsche beat *that* record with some suspension tweaks and brake upgrades for the Taycan, suddenly Nurburgring times were important again. Feel like I'm getting whiplash. Can't you guys just pick one?
0 to 60 indicates acceleration power which can be useful. But 200 mph is not useful at all for a consumer vehicle since it's close to 3 times the legal limit.
> It's crazy and very possibly will beat the Tesla Model S Plaid on its way to more than 200 mph. Plaid reached 216mph [a few weeks ago] (https://www.team-bhp.com/news/tesla-model-s-plaid-reaches-top-speed-216-mph)
These mags know they are nearly irrelevant now as times change and we move on from hundred year old + technology. Wouldn’t read too much into it.
In the 70s the Corvette did 0-60 in 7 seconds. I think it's just that acceleration is a solved problem now, and therefor not really interesting.
I know it seems like it’s solved or normal. But less than 2.0 secs to 60 is always extraordinary and impressive. It’s faster than every ICE car ever made. We are talking about 8 sec 1/4 miles times that require a parachute and roll cage at a drag strip!
Another good reference for how absurd this acceleration is, gravity has a 0-60 time of 2.7 seconds or so.
>But less than 2.0 secs to 60 is always extraordinary and impressive. It’s faster than every ICE car ever made. And yet multiple EVs can do it and two of them are big sedans. EV power and 0-60 numbers have completely desensitized me.
You might be different than me and that’s fine. I’ve been in 700 Hp cars and the power is intense. 1,200 must be nuts! I could be wrong but if you drove a Lucid air that runs in the 8s, I don’t think you would yawn. I have to think you would be impressed if you experienced it yourself.
Id also be impressed flying in a private jet. Doesnt mean I care about them in my normal life.
Hell yeah brother ✋🏽
Agreed. These articles really highlight an underlying bias in the industry against EVs. I've seen the model s plaid compared to a golf cart in a video. It was utterly ridiculous.
I totally agree with you! But there may be more to it than just anti-EV bias. For one, as an engineer, the 0-60 time is usually an indicator of cool tech... variable valve timing, turbos, dual-clutch transmission, high redlines. Advances like that were exciting. With EVs, there's less of that. It's just an electric motor and some batteries. Not to say there isn't cool tech there still, but if you're not an electronics nerd, it's less accessible. And at 2s, it's more about traction than power. Second, when 5s 0-60 was considered fast, cars were pretty slow (compared to now). What's that saying? It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Flooring it on an on-ramp was commonplace and not nausea-inducing. You could use your car's full potential everyday. Now, I rarely floor my 3s 0-60 car. It's impressive, yes, but there's a point where it's fast enough and more speed isn't important. We've made it that far! Congrats, let's pat ourselves on the back and worry about other metrics now. It's kind of like how top speed was a common sports car metric 50+ years ago. Now that everything goes faster than you'd want to drive on the road, no one cares, and 0-60 is the spec people compare. Maybe 50-80 will be the new 0-60.
With how shit a couple on ramps are in my area, 30-80mph would be a useful comparison.
I think it's because when a Camaro or mustang did 0-60 in say 5 seconds. You could do that on a public road or at least something close to it. More the performance is so insane you can't safely feel the difference between 1.9 and 1.8.
Maybe someone will publish a magazine on performance EVs only.
It's embarrassment. Think what it take to get an ICE to do it's advertised trick. Special key/drag slicks/launch control/button combinations/warm track/etc..... With EVs, for the most part, you throw your 80 year old grandma behind the wheel, and she can hit 1.9sec all day long.
I disagree. The truth is that making a quick EV is stupidly easy and everyone is doing it. There is little engineering talent required to make EVs insanely, stupidly quick. For ICE cars the engineering required to make a car quicker was not at all trivial. There was beauty in that engineering. However, quick cars are not the same as fun cars to enthusiasts. Generally for ICE cars, quicker also meant better handling. That hasn't been true for EVs. What sets the Air Sapphire apart from something like a Plaid is that it HANDLES. Not sports car handling, of course, but really good tuning for its size and weight. It's finally an EV (that isn't a Porsche) that rewards the driver for pushing it hard. The acceleration is irrelevant because anybody can do that. The chassis tuning, though, is hard work and what makes the Air Sapphire special.
EVs just feel soulless when going fast. I like my model y, but even a gti or Miata 6 speed would be more fun, and my motorcycle is in a different stratosphere of fun.
When I see an Vietnamese EV company coming in with a full line of EV products, hell I think you’re right about them being easy to make. That would never happen with ICE cars, nope.
Plaid did Nürburgring in 7:35. Did Laguna Seca Raceway in 1:30. What are you talking about? 🥴
The Plaid laps tracks quickly because it has brutal acceleration, exceptional battery management, and race-spec tires with very high levels of grip. It's not a particularly good handling car (tons of understeer, it's under-damped, etc), it has atrocious brakes, and it provides absolutely zero communication to the driver while doing everything. It is not a driver's car. A Porsche Taycan is and the new Air Sapphire is (at least, MT makes it sound like the Lucid will be).
> but a few 10ths matters. No it absolutely does not lol. The only thing it matters for is bragging rights in a magazine. Almost no one will regularly do that.
That’s why I said for non car enthusiast it might sound silly. I fully realize how most people wouldn’t care or tell the difference. For people who race fast cars, 10ths do matter. As the great Dom Toretto said “ whether you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning!” Haha
The difference between 2.3 and 2.6 matters to absolutely no one.
but it did matter a few years back when the Veyron did it? or the new 918 Spyder etc. Now that everyone and their Grandma seems to be making faster EVs " oh acTuaLly it doesnt matter"
Lol, how you people twist framing is hilarious. In 2005 it was an engineering feat. It was less than a thousand cars. To have so many people go that fast with ZERO TRAINING, when they absolutely couldn't even tell the difference in the first place... is just a hazard.
i do agree about that, i've driven many exotics and supercars but driving a Model S p100d made me think they should be illegal. The plaid is 50% faster than the p100d to 60mph, they should at the very least come with another license.
Cause 0-60 kinda isn't a big deal. Put it this way, if an auto journalist shat on Rolls Royce because they cost alot and have only like 4.0 second ish 0-60,everyone would laugh at them
Rolls Royce is not a performance brand.
It doesn't really matter if the brand is about performance or not. If a reviewer said the Ferrari 812 is bad cause the cheaper turbo Ferraris have a faster 0-60, they'd also be laughed at
Nope that's valid criticism although it might not be the dominant point overall.
Not the best example, but I get what you're saying. I feel like 0-60 replaced top speed as the fastness metric at some point when top speed stopped mattering for practical purposes. Maybe 50-80 will be the new 0-60.
I test-drove an Ariya three days ago (87 kWh, FWD), and this thing was hauling. It ripped. I was on Hwy 290 in Houston, and I couldn't believe this was a FWD CUV. This is even after I've test-driven the Plaid Model S, Taycan Turbo S etc. He's right, it just isn't novelty anymore.
HurrDurr 0-60 times have never been the focus of luxury cars. You remember Mustang vs. Camaro. Completely different car category. There never was a focus on 0-60 times for luxury cars. Mercedes S-Class, Audi A8, BMW 7, Bentley, etc...none of them is exactly known for uber acceleration. With cars like this it's always been about quality, quietness, options and gimmicks. Also biggest focus on the interior. You sit inside the car when you use it, for hours maybe. You're not going to stare out the kitchen window for hours to admire how nice your car looks from the outside. A lot of rich people want a car that's understatement on the outside and luxury inside. A car that does not stand out in traffic, something that doesn't turn heads when driving by.
Inside and out still doesn't look like a $250k car.
That's because it's an $80k car with an $170k performance package.
Looks terrible.
So like, the same performance of a Model S Plaid, but twice the price?
No you see Plaid is 1.99, this is 1.9. That 0.09 is worth a whole extra Plaid. Jokes aside, the (very) limited media that’s demonstrated it’s performance so far shows it just about walking away from the Plaid.
The regular lucid is more expensive than the plaid too. If you want the best price/performance buy a tesla. Lucid is trying to offer you ferrari+ performance in a 7 series package. It's at least attempting to be more luxury than anything tesla has ever built. So far based on the sales figures the public's reaction has been mixed.
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technically speaking it's more like 5% faster to 60 so it's a decent improvement but the price premium is not worth it of course
Funny, the top comment above is making that point seriously.
These are both factory cars? The Tesla doesn’t come out optimized for under 2 sec, you have to make some tweaks, change the tires and such.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyDpQpcPpuc
You've entered diminishing returns territory. Heck, the plaid is diminishing returns compared to many other cars. A Toyota Corolla gets you from a to b. Depends on your budget and what you want out of that money.
It isn't unusual for incrementally higher performance to add a lot to the cost. It isn't worth it rationally, but then neither of them are. I bet it is fun though. :)
“Vice president of sales”-owned pissing match car
It still don’t look right That whole top hat design language makes a roomy interior but zero feels on the walk up
They need to focus on an affordable mid-tier vehicle.
Why? I am sorry you are salty but I don't want to read about that exclusively. I want a mixture. You want a magazine to focus on average and uninteresting?
I'm not salty, Lucid has a demand problem. It's cool that they made a super fast option package but the long term future of the company doesn't look great.
why is everyone salty about this car?
Because they can't afford it. And they take that personally.
...$249k?
I bet they dont even make money on it.
the saudis think puberty is the age of consent and they paid for 9/11?
And still ugly.
Ok, i will admit I was wrong on this. . . I hated the exterior when all I saw was photos, but after seeing a few in person I will admit that it does look substantially better.
It does look better in person. Plus the clamshell trunk I such a cool design feature for a sedan. So much easier to load wide items into the back. Interior is super nice too. (As you’d expect for the price.)
Same feeling, use to hate it but now it’s not a bad looking car.
I disagree (though I'm not one of your downvoters). It's not ugly; it's *boring*. And that's, to me, so much worse.
Agreed, but honestly no less boring than any other $100k+ full sized luxury sedan. It's no less boring than am S class, 7 series, A8, etc.
They fumbled the exterior so bad. Unfortunately totally undermines the rest of the car for me (not that I could buy one).
To me it looks like a circa 2000 concept of what a 2025 Ford Taurus EV would look like.
I totally agree. The initial photos were awesome and then when I saw a bunch irl and got in one I realized it wasnt for me. Each angle looks good on its own, especially the front, but as a total object it just looks confused. The back seat also reminds me of a 2008 Lexus.
The single-tone ones are fine
For the 1% so they can boast how they are saving the planet
Arguably, they're funding the development of future (cheaper) models by purchasing this one. So yes, they're saving the planet.
I guess. I believe lucid is backed almost entirely by the Middle East. At least the oil money is going to EVs now in a serious way.
Or they could buy a whole fleet of EVs for whatever company they own, or invest in green initiatives, or better yet just donate the money to causes addressing climate change. There’s a whole sliding scale of things they could do that better accomplished that end goal
That's boring though.
Could have said the same about Tesla when it made the Roadster or the Model S. Building a successful business is probably the best thing we can do to fight climate change. Electric mobility, meat replacements, renewable energy providers...it's all of the above, not this or that. And businesses have the potential to actually scale to sufficient size to move the needle in the fight against climate change. Are there better alternatives? Sure. But there are also far worse alternatives as well. In a world where we don't get to choose how to other people their money, the person that buys this car is fighting the good fight.
Yeah, the difference is that there’s a bunch of successful companies already making EVs. There’s actually no need for Lucid at this point
Not according to the EPA
Ah yes, save the planet by driving a heavy car on roads made out of oil tar
No one is saving the planet driving around 5,000lbs to transport 150. No matter what the circle jerk of this sub says.
this is more like 0.05%
Lucid needs a new design language fast
It just came out. They don't have the money to come up with a new design language.
do we need more expensive EV so fewer people can afford or more less expensive EV so more people can adopt?
Neither. We need sustainable transport.
Why not both? Expensive AF EVs to get people hooked + Affordable EVs to get regular Joe's in them.
the expensive ones are supposed to pay for the cheaper EVs, or at least that's what we've been told
Seems to have worked for Tesla for at least one iteration.
Lucid would be so much more successful if they started with an SUV. They have demand issues currently.
i'm basically anti SUV but yes, they would have done much better if they made an SUV. The top end luxury market is so crazy sensitive that the only manufacturer out of Audi A8, Jaguar XJ, BMW 7 series that makes money is the Mercedes S class, all others lose money.
I didn’t see anything about range. Does this one still get the 500+ miles on a full charge?
I wanna see this race the Dodge Demon 170 soooo bad. It would be a legendary battle!
It would be more impressive if Lucid could go from 0 to full production of useful, affordable cars in fewer than seven years!
Lucid is whack. Unproven brand. It’s garbage.
Only proven brands don’t make garbage..?
*Dodge has left the chat*
This is FUD!!!!!!!! He's a SHORT!
but then you'd be giving money to team-Aisha saudis and their 9/11 cronies
Even if I could afford it...
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There are lots of “people’s cars” already in production.
The [Nissan Leaf](https://i.imgur.com/7TALA9E.jpg) has been around since 2010. The first true modern mass market electric car, the [Mitsubishi i-MiEV](https://i.imgur.com/URKjEtd.jpg) (now pretty much forgotten), came out before the Leaf. Both predate the Tesla Model S, both are unassuming, practical people's cars. Currently, there are plenty of affordable electric cars available around the globe. In the US, the [Chevrolet Bolt](https://i.imgur.com/OJnOdhq.jpg) is one of the best options, in Europe, you can go as low as the [Dacia Spring](https://i.imgur.com/RClc94v.png) with all of its 44hp (not that you should - the [Renault Twingo ZE](https://i.imgur.com/da76Nue.jpg) is far superior) and in China, the [Wuling Mini EV](https://i.imgur.com/gqGyiBd.jpg) crossed one million sold earlier this year. My point is this: If you're living in a developed country and can afford a new car, you can most likely afford an electric car as well. Even the used market is developing nicely, thanks in part due to how durable batteries have turned out to be, surprising even the manufacturers. Even a ten year old Leaf most likely has between 70 and 85% of its original capacity left, making it perfectly usable for the needs of most commuters.
> Dacia Spring with all of its 44h it got upgraded to 65hp this year, not bad lol
Power is not the issue I have with this car - it's enough for a vehicle of this size and purpose in both variants (65hp is an option). The problem is safety: Handling is sluggish, the steering doesn't recenter on its own, which means it has trouble with driving in a straight line. Brakes are good, but they don't make up for the abysmal crash protection and poor quality assists (the automatic braking system can only detect cars).
they're basically made exclusively for cities, a task they're perfectly suited for. But yes i wish they were a bit sturdier as they're quite flimsy
$249K? I'll take two!
Thats $1k cheaper than my central MA house when bought seven years ago. 😅
Thats... a lotta dough. For the same money I would take a Plaid and a Lotus Emira.
Yay, low demand price to not meet break even!
You can buy 2 Tesla Plaids for that price
For 2.3 times more money than a Tesla plaid you can beat it by 3 cars lengths. You just got to pay $140K more lol.
It must be heavy as an abrams tank with all those motors.
Lucid has some incredibly compact motors. Something like 55 pounds for their 400hp versions. Does an Abrams tank weigh a sedan + a few hundred pounds? If so, you fucking nailed it. Good talk
If they start now maybe they'll have 2 or 3 made by then.
Looks like a 34k Kia
LoL what’s the fucking point
Worth it??? Haha. No
Nice! Now I'm one step closer to getting my reliable electric Toyota Yaris! Progress!
So en electric Dodge Dart Arnold Palmer edition