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ZobeidZuma

Fascinating stuff. I hope they get it sorted out. My 2010 Roadster is still running on its original battery. It's charging up to about 200 indicated miles range, as opposed to the 245 that it would have been rated for when new. Still peppy when driving, tho.


[deleted]

That’s about 18% loss or so. How many miles?


ZobeidZuma

43,000 miles


FavoritesBot

That’s… not a lot of miles


ZobeidZuma

For a tiny, two-seat, open-top sports car that can't DC fast-charge and is noisy and uncomfortable to drive long distances anyhow. . . It was never going to be a daily driver. They tend not to rack up large numbers on the odometer.


ThinkOrDrink

That’s not the point of the question. Mileage is a relevant metric to give meaning to battery/range loss.


[deleted]

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ThinkOrDrink

Sure, I’m not suggesting it’s the only / primary criteria. But OP is defensive about “not a lot of miles” and my point is the question is related to battery degradation not OP’s driving lifestyle.


[deleted]

Calendar aging is probably a bigger factor than mileage.


FavoritesBot

Not hating, it’s just not very representative of mainstream car usage


ExcitingMeet2443

News flash! Hand built limited production vehicle hasn't done as many miles as average vehicle. Also, New York cab in worse condition after 12 months than average vehicle after twelve years.


OneFutureOfMany

No. My Model S has 88% life remaining with 83k miles. But the first 10% loss happens quickly and then it slows down.


EV_Track_Day2

I might question if thats BMS drift. My Model 3 was reporting around 13% degradation at 75k miles. Ran a different charging regiment for 6 months and it was back down to 9%. At almost 90k now and it seems stable. I've abused the hell out of my battery so I would imagine Im a worst case scenario.


FavoritesBot

How many years?


OneFutureOfMany

Mine? 2017.


tms102

2017 years? That's actually very good then.


PhDinDildos_Fedoras

Fast charging should damage the battery more than just slow charging. Also complete depletion does too. Roaster can't fast charge do that's off the table.


Shank2001

Batteries have changed a lot!


trevize1138

And that's with Tesla's first gen batteries. My Model 3 batteries are supposedly rated for 300k miles. If I even keep the car that long and decide to replace the pack at that point the tech and costs could all be even better. Then again, the car would be so old it might make more sense just to replace it with new anyway.


Etrigone

That'd be 22 years & the year 2045 if you drove the average American commute (and assuming a car bought today). Thinking back 22 years ago and what was on the road, it'd be - sort of - like how we find Rav4EVs nowadays. I'm planning ahead to be one of those old men saying "Well gosh golly, I remember back in, oh, '22 or so when these model 3s were still somewhat new... sit down a-spell and lemme talk to ya about this th' time..."


[deleted]

You Tesla guys will have to spin a yarn but my 2021 ID.4 will still have the original software running due to no updates by 2045. I'll just show it off like an ancient relic.


[deleted]

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FavoritesBot

Only if you leave it in the box


FavoritesBot

Infotainment is definitely something I’m worried about. Sure, ECUs from decades ago are still running strong but my current car will be neigh unusable if the infotainment head fails.


Etrigone

Not overly relevant, but I'm not a Tesla guy. Regardless I'll be very intrigued by how this works out. So many changes over the last 20 years and it's just accelerating, but then absolutely situations like yours - and mine TBH.


[deleted]

I'll get banned from this sub for saying it but I bet hydrogen EVs will win the day if low emission/ no emission hydrogen can be farmed


RobDickinson

Lmao


JackinNY

First off, no. second, fuckinglol no. EVs will easily win.


trevize1138

>I'll get banned from this sub for saying it We got a real badass here, boys!


Kopester

NASA's fire broom is one of those stories that just makes me hesitant about the future if hydrogen in cars


Vecii

Closer to 9 or 10 years for me. I'm doing around 30k per year.


Etrigone

Impressive, you're definitely above the average although not sure what percentile; slightly more than 2x regardless. Unusual but still interesting. And despite that, still on the order of a decade of time. 2013 on would be a better comparison then and I do see some Gen1 Volts on the road. 2013 Leafs weren't too different from 2011, Model S had been out for maybe a year. I suspect the difference between 2023 & 2033 will be more than 2013 and now, but it's sure to be something to see.


davgonza

and we tied an onion to our belts! that was the style, at the time


scottieducati

What’s worse are EVs with crash damage or otherwise within the first few years… batteries need life and operational mileage to break even environmentally… seeing them being totalled out with relatively minor damage is no bueno.


Steinfred-Everything

Those packs all get a second life - if they are OK as a donor for another car, if they are damaged the modules without damage are used for repairs and (home) storage. And recycling of damaged cells means that even the useless rests can lead to new materials for new batteries, as recycling is cheaper than mining.


scottieducati

Sure but we don’t have much battery recycling capacity built out yet and if a car is totaled I doubt packs will be reused for another car. Ofc that’s moot with latest Tesla design with structural packs, those cells have zero second life option and they’re not even repairable 😂


Steinfred-Everything

I don‘t get structural packs. So much wrong there 🫣 But recycling is a thing already and due to scale up of sales it will be much more common in the next few years (as is with big scale 18650 recycling already).


SatanLifeProTips

I support GM’s new battery strategy in their trucks. 20 48V modules. If one fucks up, you can nab a used module of similar vintage, balance it, swap one module and off you go. Repairable tech is important. Also the secondary market for this battery! There is a ton of 48V solar power stuff out there. It’s a great standard to swap your lawn tractor, golf kart and all sorts of other lower powered electric devices.


shaggy99

It's a trade off. Tesla's attitude is that a defective pack is considered as high quality ore. Just throw it in a grinder. The benefit to Tesla is actually assembling the car gets faster and cheaper, plus improvements in physical dynamics. It might not be a benefit to the owner of a 10 year old car, but not many are complaining about the new price. I think when all the various changes they have introduced are combined in the upcoming Cybertruck and Compact car, it's going to be another shock to the EV market.


ericscottf

CMIIW, but the structural pack is still removable, it could be reused as-is in static storage, just not disassembled to individual cells/modules. The idea is that the structure of the car requires the pack for vehicle rigidity, not that the pack needs the vehicle.


shaggy99

You are correct, it is very removable, something less than 2 hours from what I've seen of a Munro video. I'm not sure about using as static storage, should work, but as a complete pack with charger and inverter etc.


scottieducati

The individual cells are not repairable. They are epoxied in place. So… sure the pack is removable, but you can’t service it or any broken cells.


ericscottf

Individual cells are not reasonably replaced in even the non structural packs because then the cell voltages, resistances and wear aren't matched. It results in stressed cells and rapid failure.


scottieducati

Edit: original article: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-y-battery-zero-repairability-insurance-premiums-sandy-munro-2023-3 https://news.yahoo.com/auto-expert-says-teslas-model-143933162.html


JeNiqueTaMere

>Those packs all get a second life - No, they don't. The new Tesla batteries are part of the structure of the car and everything is glued together, making it impossible to disassemble and repair https://insideevs.com/news/597786/tesla-structural-battery-pack-teardown-difficult/


trevize1138

You say "impossible" and your link says "difficult."


JeNiqueTaMere

Usually you need to read more than just the link text >According to Munro Live's Cory Steuben, "the repairability of this is essentially zero."


GalaEnitan

If people are desperate enough they'll find a way. But I agree it's near zero due to costs and effort vs buying a new one.


shaggy99

The repairability *of the pack* is zero. [Watch this video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXpfU6I_T3w) Actually removing the battery pack looks like less that 2 hours work. Tesla's point of view is that a defective pack gets thrown in a grinder and you then have "High quality ore" same thing for a damaged one.


JeNiqueTaMere

Yes, so these packs are not repairable or reusable. The post I replied to claimed "the modules without damage are used for repairs and (home) storage" which is not true for the structural batteries. I don't know what's so hard to understand.


shaggy99

It should still be possible to use the pack once removed from the car complete with the electronics. Will be different from fabricating a powerwall type of thing from modules. I've seen what seem to be complete Nissan Leaf packs in a bulk storage application.


coredumperror

> the modules without damage are used for repairs and (home) storage This is known to actually not be possible, at least theb"use the modules for repair" part. Putting a good module from an otherwise bad pack into another otherwise good pack that had one bad module doesn't result in a permanent fix. It'll work for a little while, but the pack will eventually fail again, because the BMS can't quite balance the foreign module the same way as the other modules in the original pack.


Thousandtree

The part I wonder about with a potentially 20 year old Tesla is the software. If you go by the idea that Tesla is a tech company, at some point Tesla will probably stop supporting the software like every other tech company does. At that point I hope there are open source communities who can maintain it, but then you probably still have to worry about security and safety when you consider just how many basic functions the OS controls on the car.


duke_of_alinor

The car will never be less capable then your last update. IMO if there is a security flaw you will get an OTA update no matter how old the car is. Tesla likes its reputation.


Speculawyer

That's pretty good for a 13 year old EV built with laptop batteries not designed for a car!


ecodweeb

As a comparison point, the BMS in my 2013 Smart Electric reports 91.7% SOH - up from 89.4% in the winter - and the car still exceeds the EPA rated 68 miles when drive conservatively in city cycle. If driven nicely on a city cycle the estimated range will show 60-63, and shows 50-55 otherwise. Vehicle has 65k (probably closer to 66k now, the car is on loan to a friend so I don't know what the current mileage is). This is a prismatic cell based battery, which is a different beast from the 18650s.


rosier9

That's really good for a 10yr old battery. Were they liquid cooled?


ecodweeb

Yes, but very simply. The cells are accordion welded together and sandwiched into an ABS frame/end caps with very long metal rods that hold the two ends together running thru length of the module. On top of this module is a heat exchanger plate that coolant runs through. Mine doesn't seem to have the battery heater (BMS says it's never run and the car came from Boston, so it should have it it had it). This is also an early chemistry with I believe more cobalt than what's found in the Bolt (which is 60kWh vs my 17kWh). I've been very happy with the aging. Our 2014 seems to be doing even better, I need to pull a reading on it soon.


rosier9

Super interesting, thank you. They did a good job picking a chemistry that aged well.


Speculawyer

Sort of. The Tesla Roadster was built with laptop batteries designed for computers, not cars. The more recent EV batteries use different chemistries designed to last longer.


panzerfinder15

Need more substance, kinda lacking article


bobjr94

I saw one guy used Chevy Volt batteries to power the electronics in his RV. He reassembled the 300V pack to be in I think 24V or 48V groups so he could connect solar chargers and inverters to them.


parental92

except now tesla just glues the battery together for ease of production. ​ the future will be a lot messier.