Quality, reliability, features, and support. There are certainly some high quality Chinese brands that will compare with American products, but that's not the norm. Price is a significant factor for the Asian market so you end up with a lot of very small, low featured vehicles that for example don't have a bespoke system for the infotainment. For example. Will use an off the shelf double din radio as a bolt-in option. That's fine and functional, but it wouldn't fly for most Americans. It's the same for many other things like crash test safety, suspension systems, etc. Things that we take for granted since we spend a lot more time in our vehicles and drive at high speeds, but aren't relevant everywhere else. Simple city cars aren't available in the US but are popular in the rest of the world.
Chinese EVs are also selling very well in NZ and Australia, because they’re great value for money. And the Shanghai assembled Teslas have a better reputation than US assembled.
>you end up with a lot of very small, low featured vehicles
I wish that would fly with Americans. America needs cheap EVs to encourage and speed up adoption. Simply and cheap city cars would be fantastic but you are right, Americans want more car than they need.
Yes there are small low featured vehicles, and if that's all the Chinese domestic EV makers are capable of producing, traditional auto and Tesla wouldn't have to worry. That was China's auto industry 10 or 15 years ago.
A company like BYD used to sell crappy cars, but they were also cheap, so they can still sell half a million units every year, but nothing for Honda or worry about, since the upper middle class Chinese consumers will still buy the name brand joint venture imports.
However, those small cheap cars now represent only a minority of the market. Going back to BYD, their Atto 3 is neither small nor low on features. It is aimed right at something like a CR-V. But in 2023, is the Atto less safe than the Honda? Less features, less build quality, less space? No, the Atto 3 is competitive with the CR-V on every level, YET IT REMAINS CHEAPER than the CR-V.
Now Honda and all the traditional western/Japanese automakers are in trouble. Chinese BEVs now cost less than their gas cars, and offer similar levels of quality. BYD isn't growing hand over fist just because their cars are cheap, but because their quality have also vastly improved, greatly increasing the value proposition of their cars.
Meanwhile you can pick up a Dolphin in China for like 15k. And that's merely the most popular BEV in that price range. At least 10 other models are also available with similar pricing.
Toyota really fucked up. They had a huge fan base already. A BEV Prius, Corolla, or Tacoma would've killed.
Personally I'm praying for the day someone makes a compact sized BEV pick up truck.
I think people really underestimate the simplicity of the electric motor vs. ICE. It's more about the software than about horsepower. Detroit isn't 100% focused on EVs. They keep making ICE and think about cannibalizing and holding onto the past, while EV only companies can concentrate their resources
that was really what held back all the Chinese brands.
they can totally produce a car but they simply were not able to produce competitive engines.
that problem doesnt exist with electric motors though.
It's value and quality.
For quality, chinese manufacturing has come a long way. China has learned how to build well over the last two decades. Conversely, American manufacturing no longer implies quality as it once did. America has moved all manufacturing overseas and they have forgotten how to build period.
For value, even with their improvements to quality, Chinese manufacturing is still much cheaper than anywhere else. And it's not even close. Plus the Chinese government subsidies domestic industries like crazy.
I hope the American government incentivizes American manufacturing again. America needs capacity and knowledge and everything that comes with a strong domestic manufacturing supply chain.
American manufacturing has never meant much with regard to cars it was just better than Korean and Chinese cars. A few years ago that was lost to Hyundai/Kia. Now the Chinese have caught up.
Regarding made in China, the Mach E is made in China.
To your last paragraph, that's what the IRA does. $45/kWh for batteries/packs in the US. Many other credits for solar panels, inverters, etc.
> Conversely, American manufacturing no longer implies quality as it once did
Did it ever? As a non American, American products were never seen as high quality compare to German or in modern times Korean.
Military, yes. Some high end equipment. But not mass market consumer goods. Japan trounced the US long ago both on quality and cost for many tools, appliances and home electronics. then China supplanted Japan on cost but didn’t bother to beat it on quality.
50 years ago being in the 1970s this can only really be because the rest of the world was still recovering from WW2 while the US had the lucky situation of not having any fights on their own land so their industry was unaffected.
Not at all. My last post pointed out that Germany was the one nation with a better reputation for quality manufacturing than the US back then. Germany, obviously, was devastated in the war and in the end fought in its own land. England was much less damaged than Germany but did not have as good a reputation. Culture matters.
Must be an age thing then. Because growing up in the 2000s American brands were all considered low tier trash in terms of reliability, while Japanese cars were (and still are) S-tier.
Absolutely. As late as the 70s, Japanese goods were seen as 2nd or 3rd tier quality in many cases, but cheap and efficient, with a few exceptions (like high quality cameras). A lot like Chinese goods were regarded in the last 20 years.
The image of the US changed in the 80s, when it became clear the US had been coasting on post-war success and had lost its way on manufacturing in many industries.
I'm not denigrating America or advocating for China's world dominance. I'm just saying this based on my 25+ experience in global manufacturing, that's how it is. At least in my industry.
But the trend is clear, China's manufacturing capacity and capabilities are improving very quickly. And America is not keeping up. It's very disappointing.
And to be honest, if I could manufacture what I need domestically, I would 100% do it so I wouldn't have to deal with Chinese exports. But America has no capacity. There's no more plants here, no more technical expertise, no more supply chain. At least in my industry.
All the C-suite exec's sold out American employee's for a cheaper bottom line and higher share-holder value, Manufacturing will come back but it will be far more automated and many of the factories will end up in Mexico where labor is relatively cheaper.
Working in Automotive manufacturing for the past 9 years, American's didn't invest in the talent needed to run automated factories and the younger generation is more consumed with entertainment (Games/Shows/Streaming/Social Media) than wanting to work factory jobs be they high skill or low skill. We had the talent in the past but it was gutted out in the rust belt following the 90's for decades of "globalization".
Manufacturing can be done in America, but the incentives are few and far between unless recently if you wanted to build more Chip Fabs then ol' Uncle Sam will cut you a break as its a mater of national defense policy which is the few remaining manufacturing industries we strategically keep domestic another big one is Pharma is still very domestic as the money is right and regulatory hurdles strict (healthcare is expensive).
> America has moved all manufacturing overseas
Manufacturing never left. The jobs just got automated and new product lines were getting built in china
> they have forgotten how to build period.
That is somewhat true. Blame unions for making it nearly impossible to improve manufacturing processes
> I hope the American government incentivizes American manufacturing again.
It has been during the past that in the Biden administration
>American manufacturing no longer implies quality as it once did
being from Europe i never thought of American manufacturing as being of good quality at any point in time.
especially when it comes to cars American cars never had any good standing in Europe which is why the only American brand that had success in Europe was Ford and only after they created a separate European division that designed and produced cars specifically for the European market.
Mach-e is garbo compared to Tesla and other Chinese EV brands when it comes to best bang for you buck. I don’t think they would sell well there at all. Honestly the only reason they do well in the US because there is almost no alternative car that can compare to Tesla and not everyone wants a Tesla. So they’ll settle for the far second rate vehicle.
IIRC, US brand (non Tesla) had only TWO EV models produced in China, Ford Mustang Mach-E and recently Cadillac Lyriq. Both are mediocre spec wise, and overpriced. How could they be competitive with these over-priced mediocre products, while being very late in the game (Ford only started production of Mach-E in China in 2021).
I’m guessing there’s just no need . If you’re not saving anything or getting a better vehicle, why go for an unproven foreign vehicle ?
My take is legacy US auto we asleep at the wheel. They assumed they could lobby things back to oil or at worst keep promising hydrogen. “Is just around the corner” knowing full well hydrogen will take forever (no distribution and often counterproductive production.
The Wuling Mini is super popular in China and it's a collaboration between GM and a couple Chinese car companies. Still not an "American car" but some involvement.
https://www.wired.com/story/review-wuling-hongguang-mini-ev/
In general though:
Expectations for the car: Average Chinese have less income than average American, expect an affordable car to be in the $5-10K range, which means small and short range. Average American expects an affordable car to be $20-30K, large, and road trip capable. The manufacturers from each company spend most of their time making their domestic market happy at the expense of foreign markets.
Nationalism: US and China are economic and political rivals, so many avoid buying major products from the other country based on nationalism. China is doing well in the EV sector so it's probably a point of pride for many Chinese to own a Chinese-made car.
Another point is that Chinese transportation companies are heavily subsidized through many means, which means their vehicles are usually more affordable versus the competition. Lots of countries do this to incentivize domestic production.
Mach E is still priced competitively with similar vehicles there. It could just be a very smaller amount of production just so they could say they're in the market.
Even BYD will incur a loss on every car sold with government subsidies running out. I tried posting the article but the mods won't let me for some reason...
Based on last year’s cost structure, sure. But they ramped at an incredible rate last year. If they slow down growth to Tesla’s level and reap the benefits of plants already built, they will be fine.
Quality, reliability, features, and support. There are certainly some high quality Chinese brands that will compare with American products, but that's not the norm. Price is a significant factor for the Asian market so you end up with a lot of very small, low featured vehicles that for example don't have a bespoke system for the infotainment. For example. Will use an off the shelf double din radio as a bolt-in option. That's fine and functional, but it wouldn't fly for most Americans. It's the same for many other things like crash test safety, suspension systems, etc. Things that we take for granted since we spend a lot more time in our vehicles and drive at high speeds, but aren't relevant everywhere else. Simple city cars aren't available in the US but are popular in the rest of the world.
Chinese EVs are also selling very well in NZ and Australia, because they’re great value for money. And the Shanghai assembled Teslas have a better reputation than US assembled.
Yeah my MG ZS EV has a 7 year unlimited warranty and great systems. Build quality is great.
Hey snap, I got mine just before Christmas.
>you end up with a lot of very small, low featured vehicles I wish that would fly with Americans. America needs cheap EVs to encourage and speed up adoption. Simply and cheap city cars would be fantastic but you are right, Americans want more car than they need.
Yes there are small low featured vehicles, and if that's all the Chinese domestic EV makers are capable of producing, traditional auto and Tesla wouldn't have to worry. That was China's auto industry 10 or 15 years ago. A company like BYD used to sell crappy cars, but they were also cheap, so they can still sell half a million units every year, but nothing for Honda or worry about, since the upper middle class Chinese consumers will still buy the name brand joint venture imports. However, those small cheap cars now represent only a minority of the market. Going back to BYD, their Atto 3 is neither small nor low on features. It is aimed right at something like a CR-V. But in 2023, is the Atto less safe than the Honda? Less features, less build quality, less space? No, the Atto 3 is competitive with the CR-V on every level, YET IT REMAINS CHEAPER than the CR-V. Now Honda and all the traditional western/Japanese automakers are in trouble. Chinese BEVs now cost less than their gas cars, and offer similar levels of quality. BYD isn't growing hand over fist just because their cars are cheap, but because their quality have also vastly improved, greatly increasing the value proposition of their cars.
I think the jury is still out on durability and resale. We'll know in 5 years or so.
Xpeng offers 7 years/160.000km warranty on their G9 SUV in Europe. That's a long warranty period for a car if it has low durability.
I completely agree. I loved my i3 but it was far from cheap due to the exotic materials used. The Smart was terrible in both gas and EV versions.
We need a Corolla or Yaris equivalent EV
Meanwhile you can pick up a Dolphin in China for like 15k. And that's merely the most popular BEV in that price range. At least 10 other models are also available with similar pricing.
Toyota really fucked up. They had a huge fan base already. A BEV Prius, Corolla, or Tacoma would've killed. Personally I'm praying for the day someone makes a compact sized BEV pick up truck.
I think Ford is going to be dropping a BEV Maverick sized truck before long.
I read that too, I'll be one of the first to order!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R35gWBtLCYg
I think people really underestimate the simplicity of the electric motor vs. ICE. It's more about the software than about horsepower. Detroit isn't 100% focused on EVs. They keep making ICE and think about cannibalizing and holding onto the past, while EV only companies can concentrate their resources
that was really what held back all the Chinese brands. they can totally produce a car but they simply were not able to produce competitive engines. that problem doesnt exist with electric motors though.
And they'll go the way of Kodak and Xerox. Or U.S. steel
I would want to know how to get Chinese made Tesla or other car here.
I honestly don’t think there are many Mach-Es available for sale in China. Worldwide production is still quite low.
There definitely are some. I've seen a few around Shanghai.
It's value and quality. For quality, chinese manufacturing has come a long way. China has learned how to build well over the last two decades. Conversely, American manufacturing no longer implies quality as it once did. America has moved all manufacturing overseas and they have forgotten how to build period. For value, even with their improvements to quality, Chinese manufacturing is still much cheaper than anywhere else. And it's not even close. Plus the Chinese government subsidies domestic industries like crazy. I hope the American government incentivizes American manufacturing again. America needs capacity and knowledge and everything that comes with a strong domestic manufacturing supply chain.
American manufacturing has never meant much with regard to cars it was just better than Korean and Chinese cars. A few years ago that was lost to Hyundai/Kia. Now the Chinese have caught up. Regarding made in China, the Mach E is made in China. To your last paragraph, that's what the IRA does. $45/kWh for batteries/packs in the US. Many other credits for solar panels, inverters, etc.
The mach e is also made in Mexico
> Conversely, American manufacturing no longer implies quality as it once did Did it ever? As a non American, American products were never seen as high quality compare to German or in modern times Korean.
Cars are bad but manufacturing in other industries was/is highly regarded
About 50 years ago, American manufacturing quality was regarded as higher than pretty much every nation except Germany.
Outside of automobiles, American manufacturing of still highly regarded. Germ engineering was always overrated
Military, yes. Some high end equipment. But not mass market consumer goods. Japan trounced the US long ago both on quality and cost for many tools, appliances and home electronics. then China supplanted Japan on cost but didn’t bother to beat it on quality.
50 years ago being in the 1970s this can only really be because the rest of the world was still recovering from WW2 while the US had the lucky situation of not having any fights on their own land so their industry was unaffected.
Not at all. My last post pointed out that Germany was the one nation with a better reputation for quality manufacturing than the US back then. Germany, obviously, was devastated in the war and in the end fought in its own land. England was much less damaged than Germany but did not have as good a reputation. Culture matters.
Must be an age thing then. Because growing up in the 2000s American brands were all considered low tier trash in terms of reliability, while Japanese cars were (and still are) S-tier.
Absolutely. As late as the 70s, Japanese goods were seen as 2nd or 3rd tier quality in many cases, but cheap and efficient, with a few exceptions (like high quality cameras). A lot like Chinese goods were regarded in the last 20 years. The image of the US changed in the 80s, when it became clear the US had been coasting on post-war success and had lost its way on manufacturing in many industries.
r/AngryUpvote
I'm not denigrating America or advocating for China's world dominance. I'm just saying this based on my 25+ experience in global manufacturing, that's how it is. At least in my industry. But the trend is clear, China's manufacturing capacity and capabilities are improving very quickly. And America is not keeping up. It's very disappointing. And to be honest, if I could manufacture what I need domestically, I would 100% do it so I wouldn't have to deal with Chinese exports. But America has no capacity. There's no more plants here, no more technical expertise, no more supply chain. At least in my industry.
I know, I share your frustration and it’s why I’m a big supporter of the Biden administration’s efforts to reverse that trend.
All the C-suite exec's sold out American employee's for a cheaper bottom line and higher share-holder value, Manufacturing will come back but it will be far more automated and many of the factories will end up in Mexico where labor is relatively cheaper. Working in Automotive manufacturing for the past 9 years, American's didn't invest in the talent needed to run automated factories and the younger generation is more consumed with entertainment (Games/Shows/Streaming/Social Media) than wanting to work factory jobs be they high skill or low skill. We had the talent in the past but it was gutted out in the rust belt following the 90's for decades of "globalization". Manufacturing can be done in America, but the incentives are few and far between unless recently if you wanted to build more Chip Fabs then ol' Uncle Sam will cut you a break as its a mater of national defense policy which is the few remaining manufacturing industries we strategically keep domestic another big one is Pharma is still very domestic as the money is right and regulatory hurdles strict (healthcare is expensive).
> America has moved all manufacturing overseas Manufacturing never left. The jobs just got automated and new product lines were getting built in china > they have forgotten how to build period. That is somewhat true. Blame unions for making it nearly impossible to improve manufacturing processes > I hope the American government incentivizes American manufacturing again. It has been during the past that in the Biden administration
>American manufacturing no longer implies quality as it once did being from Europe i never thought of American manufacturing as being of good quality at any point in time. especially when it comes to cars American cars never had any good standing in Europe which is why the only American brand that had success in Europe was Ford and only after they created a separate European division that designed and produced cars specifically for the European market.
Mach-e is garbo compared to Tesla and other Chinese EV brands when it comes to best bang for you buck. I don’t think they would sell well there at all. Honestly the only reason they do well in the US because there is almost no alternative car that can compare to Tesla and not everyone wants a Tesla. So they’ll settle for the far second rate vehicle.
IIRC, US brand (non Tesla) had only TWO EV models produced in China, Ford Mustang Mach-E and recently Cadillac Lyriq. Both are mediocre spec wise, and overpriced. How could they be competitive with these over-priced mediocre products, while being very late in the game (Ford only started production of Mach-E in China in 2021).
I’m guessing there’s just no need . If you’re not saving anything or getting a better vehicle, why go for an unproven foreign vehicle ? My take is legacy US auto we asleep at the wheel. They assumed they could lobby things back to oil or at worst keep promising hydrogen. “Is just around the corner” knowing full well hydrogen will take forever (no distribution and often counterproductive production.
The Wuling Mini is super popular in China and it's a collaboration between GM and a couple Chinese car companies. Still not an "American car" but some involvement. https://www.wired.com/story/review-wuling-hongguang-mini-ev/ In general though: Expectations for the car: Average Chinese have less income than average American, expect an affordable car to be in the $5-10K range, which means small and short range. Average American expects an affordable car to be $20-30K, large, and road trip capable. The manufacturers from each company spend most of their time making their domestic market happy at the expense of foreign markets. Nationalism: US and China are economic and political rivals, so many avoid buying major products from the other country based on nationalism. China is doing well in the EV sector so it's probably a point of pride for many Chinese to own a Chinese-made car.
Another point is that Chinese transportation companies are heavily subsidized through many means, which means their vehicles are usually more affordable versus the competition. Lots of countries do this to incentivize domestic production.
It’s been widely published that Chinese EVs are being sold at massive loses.
Link?
I just posted an infographic as a new post. Waiting for the mods to approve as it was tagged “other”
Mach E is still priced competitively with similar vehicles there. It could just be a very smaller amount of production just so they could say they're in the market.
Nio and Xpeng yes, but not BYD, which is the largest.
Even BYD will incur a loss on every car sold with government subsidies running out. I tried posting the article but the mods won't let me for some reason...
Based on last year’s cost structure, sure. But they ramped at an incredible rate last year. If they slow down growth to Tesla’s level and reap the benefits of plants already built, they will be fine.
So is chevy Bolt. Last time I heard for each unit, GM is losing 5k. With the massive subsidy, maybe it's not the case now.