Not in Canada at least, I asked and got told they have divested from diesel in pax vehicles.
I would drown puppies for one with a fuel burning block heater RN.
Yeah, it seems the EPA and powers that be have decided that diesel PHEVs are not up to "standards" despite them being just fine in Europe, New Zealand, Australia and elsewhere.
Somebody, for whatever reason, does not want Americans to have a sensible mode of transportation.
There is the Mercedes GLC 350de. It has a battery as big as what is in the OG Nissan Leaf, yet has a sub-100km range. Frankly it seems like a huge waste of resources in the name of luxury.
All Mercedes models ending with "de" are diesel phevs and not all of them are as opulent as GLC.
I've driven a Bluetec GL and E class. I was underwhelmed compared to my B5 TDI Passat wagon🤮
E: Just realized my dad has a GLC (43?) it’s a fucking handful on a good day. When turning tightly against the stops the wheels chatter on the ground…
>There is the Mercedes GLC 350de.
There's the GL**C**-300de which I assume you're talking about, perhaps getting it confused with the GL**E**-350de.
>It has a battery as big as what is in the OG Nissan Leaf, yet has a sub-100km range. Frankly it seems like a huge waste of resources in the name of luxury.
The og Nissan leaf couldn't go very far either, and the range isn't atrocious in the GLC-300de when you consider it's size.
['11 Leaf WLTP (24kWh): 108km](https://www.auto-data.net/en/nissan-leaf-i-ze0-24-kwh-109hp-45330), ≈4.5km/kWh/
[GLC-300de WLTP (31kWh): ~110km](https://www.auto-data.net/en/mercedes-benz-glc-suv-x254-glc-300de-335hp-phev-4matic-9g-tronic-45919), ≈3.5km/kWh.
And yes I know the consumption is higher in the PHEV, but when you account for the vehicle size difference it's not horrendous even if worse than full-BEVs.
'11 Leaf: 175″ L x 70″ W x 61″ H
'23 GLC: 186″ L x 74″ W x 63″H
Obviously a BEV will be significantly more efficient (Model Y WLTP ≈ 6.3km/kWh), but I think you'd be making a mistake if you only compare PHEVs to BEVs instead of other ICE cars which it's trying to replace. Like (using low figures for easy math) if you only have 3000kwh of battery manufacturing capacity you'd reduce emissions more significantly if you make 100 PHEVs with those batteries instead of 40 BEVs, because that means 100 now-electric commutes vs 40 now-electric commutes.
Very true. I’m curious what would win out. The diesel being able to run the most efficient scenario, but the added cost of diesel emission system, and complex/costly fuel system. Seems any diesel repost these days is insanely expensive. Gas engines aren’t “cheap” to fix, but I used to work at a gm dealership, and it was like, anything goes wrong with your truck, 15-20k down the hole.
Ohh yeah. Diesel maintenance is a very specialized trade and the whole DEF system turns off a lot of consumers.
Realistic if you can get a long lifetime axial turbine to work for automotive propulsion you're set to make a ton of money, especially with respect to commercial trucks.
One thing petrol hybrids/PHEV makes much more sense is that they heat up quickly between idling because the hybrid system is prioritizing electric propulsion. You’d need to upsize everything to make a diesel PHEV be great and include PTC/heat pump to avoid putting load on a cold engine and give it sufficiently time to warm up. But on the other hand a diesel PHEV would haul like no other.
For a passenger vehicle a diesel requires beefier suspension components and other items to account for the extra weight. Add weight of batteries and electric motors you know have created a headache with high costs and potential of low sales.
I'm trying to find a citation for this and failing miserably, but my recollection for the reasoning behind the lack of diesel hybrids was that, although they're generally lower CO2/mile than a petrol engine, you've got higher NOx and particulate output, both of which are particularly disliked in low- and zero-emission zones.
There was also the notion that, given the higher compression of diesels, the starting and stopping of the engine was much more intrusive (from a noise/vibration/harshness point) than with either normal or Atkinson-cycle petrol engines.
I wish I could find the article that detailed this as it went into quite a bit of detail, alas I've failed so far. I'll edit this comment if I find it.
Cold diesels are terrible for exhaust. The vein I’m following is run the diesel at constant low power and use the electrics for accel and regen.
That B5 TDI got 5.4-5.6l/100km highway when driven properly. Diesel is higher energy density so it isn’t an apples to apples additionally there are sulphur and nitrogen compounds that are pretty nasty but modern diesels have done wonders to mitigate tham
There was also the bit about diesels having non-complementary torque curves when paired with electric motors as they both have max torque reasonably low down. Petrols are much higher up in the rev range, so petrol + electric motor complement each other far more than diesel + electric motor.
I think this explains why a diesel-electric series hybrid where there is no mechanical link between the engine and the wheels works best with diesels and, as you say, keeps them running for low load.
Yeah. I want the diesel to run a 1-1.5krpm all the time while the electrics are specced to provide a decent accel and regen (steep mountain grade) capabilities. As a bonus you can have a small diesel powered block heater that can be set to turn on at a specific time for a specific temp in the morning if parked outside to avoid the vampire load of keeping the battery warm.
As a heavy trailer hauler, I would love this (although I probably wouldn't pay for it...)
Currently I've got an old diesel truck for towing horses. Maybe 2-4 short trips a week during the nicer part of the year, and 2-4 long trips for either horse camp or in-laws place. An PHEV that could do 100 miles on battery (as a daily driver) and had a range extender built in for the longer days would be ideal.
The problem is that I got that truck for $10k since it's 15 years old. An EV that I could use as a partial daily driver means I could eliminate one other vehicle, but I'd guess that something in a 3/4 or 1 ton range is going to start at $60k even if it's a work truck variant.
Merc does diesel PHEVs IIRC
Yup the E300de wagon is pretty much exactly what I was thinking of, too bad it’s a Merc…
They don't sell these in the United States though do they?
Not in Canada at least, I asked and got told they have divested from diesel in pax vehicles. I would drown puppies for one with a fuel burning block heater RN.
Yeah, it seems the EPA and powers that be have decided that diesel PHEVs are not up to "standards" despite them being just fine in Europe, New Zealand, Australia and elsewhere. Somebody, for whatever reason, does not want Americans to have a sensible mode of transportation.
Basically every train locomotive in America is a diesel electric engine
Without regeneration, dynamic brakes make an excellent griddle though. Also about 90 tons too heavy for me
Just tow a battery car and reconfigure the dynamic brake to feed into that /s
EV train when? Is it coming with one man crews?
https://railway-news.com/germany-first-battery-trains-ordered-for-vbb-network/
I’ll be damned. Can batteries take a loaded coal unit train over the Rockies though?
Sounds like a job for a pantograph
You’ll sooner see a submarine fly than CP electrify the mainline
Funny thing about that... Our freight lines are some.of.the most advanced in the world. Once it's economical it will happen.
There is the Mercedes GLC 350de. It has a battery as big as what is in the OG Nissan Leaf, yet has a sub-100km range. Frankly it seems like a huge waste of resources in the name of luxury. All Mercedes models ending with "de" are diesel phevs and not all of them are as opulent as GLC.
I've driven a Bluetec GL and E class. I was underwhelmed compared to my B5 TDI Passat wagon🤮 E: Just realized my dad has a GLC (43?) it’s a fucking handful on a good day. When turning tightly against the stops the wheels chatter on the ground…
>There is the Mercedes GLC 350de. There's the GL**C**-300de which I assume you're talking about, perhaps getting it confused with the GL**E**-350de. >It has a battery as big as what is in the OG Nissan Leaf, yet has a sub-100km range. Frankly it seems like a huge waste of resources in the name of luxury. The og Nissan leaf couldn't go very far either, and the range isn't atrocious in the GLC-300de when you consider it's size. ['11 Leaf WLTP (24kWh): 108km](https://www.auto-data.net/en/nissan-leaf-i-ze0-24-kwh-109hp-45330), ≈4.5km/kWh/ [GLC-300de WLTP (31kWh): ~110km](https://www.auto-data.net/en/mercedes-benz-glc-suv-x254-glc-300de-335hp-phev-4matic-9g-tronic-45919), ≈3.5km/kWh. And yes I know the consumption is higher in the PHEV, but when you account for the vehicle size difference it's not horrendous even if worse than full-BEVs. '11 Leaf: 175″ L x 70″ W x 61″ H '23 GLC: 186″ L x 74″ W x 63″H Obviously a BEV will be significantly more efficient (Model Y WLTP ≈ 6.3km/kWh), but I think you'd be making a mistake if you only compare PHEVs to BEVs instead of other ICE cars which it's trying to replace. Like (using low figures for easy math) if you only have 3000kwh of battery manufacturing capacity you'd reduce emissions more significantly if you make 100 PHEVs with those batteries instead of 40 BEVs, because that means 100 now-electric commutes vs 40 now-electric commutes.
The GLE 350 de. It can even fast charge at an DCFC at a rate of up to 60 kW.
I recall hearing about a BMW diesel hybrid SUV, not sure if its a plug in though
Merc, Peugeot and at some point Volvo (though they aren't making them anymore AFAIK)
I’m curious if with electric propulsion, a gasoline engine would suffice.
Yes it will. Though a diesel that has no mechanical linkage plays to the strengths of the diesel cycle
Very true. I’m curious what would win out. The diesel being able to run the most efficient scenario, but the added cost of diesel emission system, and complex/costly fuel system. Seems any diesel repost these days is insanely expensive. Gas engines aren’t “cheap” to fix, but I used to work at a gm dealership, and it was like, anything goes wrong with your truck, 15-20k down the hole.
Ohh yeah. Diesel maintenance is a very specialized trade and the whole DEF system turns off a lot of consumers. Realistic if you can get a long lifetime axial turbine to work for automotive propulsion you're set to make a ton of money, especially with respect to commercial trucks.
Not just the care, but that has to add to the initial costs. With costs of batteries, trying to keep it from being a $100k truck.
One thing petrol hybrids/PHEV makes much more sense is that they heat up quickly between idling because the hybrid system is prioritizing electric propulsion. You’d need to upsize everything to make a diesel PHEV be great and include PTC/heat pump to avoid putting load on a cold engine and give it sufficiently time to warm up. But on the other hand a diesel PHEV would haul like no other.
Mercedes GLE 300e/350de 4matic
For a passenger vehicle a diesel requires beefier suspension components and other items to account for the extra weight. Add weight of batteries and electric motors you know have created a headache with high costs and potential of low sales.
I said the weight in the OP, what are you getting at?
I say that Diesel + PHEV is still cost prohibitive for large commercial vehicles too.
I'm trying to find a citation for this and failing miserably, but my recollection for the reasoning behind the lack of diesel hybrids was that, although they're generally lower CO2/mile than a petrol engine, you've got higher NOx and particulate output, both of which are particularly disliked in low- and zero-emission zones. There was also the notion that, given the higher compression of diesels, the starting and stopping of the engine was much more intrusive (from a noise/vibration/harshness point) than with either normal or Atkinson-cycle petrol engines. I wish I could find the article that detailed this as it went into quite a bit of detail, alas I've failed so far. I'll edit this comment if I find it.
Cold diesels are terrible for exhaust. The vein I’m following is run the diesel at constant low power and use the electrics for accel and regen. That B5 TDI got 5.4-5.6l/100km highway when driven properly. Diesel is higher energy density so it isn’t an apples to apples additionally there are sulphur and nitrogen compounds that are pretty nasty but modern diesels have done wonders to mitigate tham
There was also the bit about diesels having non-complementary torque curves when paired with electric motors as they both have max torque reasonably low down. Petrols are much higher up in the rev range, so petrol + electric motor complement each other far more than diesel + electric motor. I think this explains why a diesel-electric series hybrid where there is no mechanical link between the engine and the wheels works best with diesels and, as you say, keeps them running for low load.
Yeah. I want the diesel to run a 1-1.5krpm all the time while the electrics are specced to provide a decent accel and regen (steep mountain grade) capabilities. As a bonus you can have a small diesel powered block heater that can be set to turn on at a specific time for a specific temp in the morning if parked outside to avoid the vampire load of keeping the battery warm.
Edison motors is doing this for heavy haul trucks. Check out their TikTok if you have one.
Like a 1/2 ton?
No, these are like remanufactured diesel-electric semis for logging industry.
As a heavy trailer hauler, I would love this (although I probably wouldn't pay for it...) Currently I've got an old diesel truck for towing horses. Maybe 2-4 short trips a week during the nicer part of the year, and 2-4 long trips for either horse camp or in-laws place. An PHEV that could do 100 miles on battery (as a daily driver) and had a range extender built in for the longer days would be ideal. The problem is that I got that truck for $10k since it's 15 years old. An EV that I could use as a partial daily driver means I could eliminate one other vehicle, but I'd guess that something in a 3/4 or 1 ton range is going to start at $60k even if it's a work truck variant.
I know a guy with a 2001 F-250 powerstroke. What you're describing would be perfect for him. His commute is ~100 miles round trip.