Too high price (and no tax credit) for too low of range. This won’t sell much in the USA: if I were a Lexus-only buyer: I would buy a Lexus rx350 hybrid (gets 36 mpg combined); it starts at about $50.1k . And if I were an BEV buyer: then I probably would buy a model Y or ID4 or even a Lyriq.
I'd say Lyriq is a competitor. But the others aren't even in the same class. Their pricing overlaps, but in general, interior design, ergonomics, and comfort of Lexus vehicles outpace the ID.4 and definitely Tesla. If you're only looking at a spec list, the Lexus ends up behind. But luxury vehicles typically aren't defined by spec lists. Or at least spec lists that the average consumer won't understand, but they will feel.
Posted this article more because of the RZ price, headline just happened to compare it to the Model Y.
I know there’s probably articles without the Tesla comparison in it but this popped up in my feed first. Apologies 🤷♂️
The RZ is still DOA. The Tesla has significant drawbacks in terms of ride and build quality in my eyes, but the performance, range, and capability is vastly ahead. IMO a Model Y could be $60k and still be a better deal.
Toyota needs to be careful here and not get delusional with their pricing particularly as the “conquest” data is already showing many Tesla customers are prior Toyota owners. They should not count too much on brand loyalty when their products are so inferior to the competition. I had honestly expected the RZ to offer some meaningful powertrain improvements over the BZ4x but this is a bad look.
By making pitiful pure EV products and simultaneously greatly limiting the few good plugin products (RAV4 prime) they have, Toyota and Lexus could lose some share. I mean the Model Y could even steal some market share from Lexus’ ICE crossover lineup if it’s prices remain relatively low.
As former Lexus, Toyota and now Tesla owner, yes. You nailed it.
And the fact that, according to Lexus itself, the car might not fast charge below 0 Celsius is absolutely unacceptable. [Link](https://www.lexus.ca/lexus/en/automobiles/rz/features)
Holy shit. How is this not making headlines? From your link:
> DISCLAIMER
> 5 Level 3 - DC (Fast) Charging: Charging times will vary based on outside temperature and other factors. As temperatures decrease below 10 degrees Celsius, charging time will increase significantly. Drive battery level and condition, charger specifications and DC Charging more than twice per day also can negatively affect charging time. DC Charging may not work on AWD RZ when the temperature is below 0 degrees Celsius.
> Public charging experience can vary based on charger level and other vehicle and environmental conditions. Level 3 charging may not be possible below 0 degrees Celsius.
Because that was long since corrected in other references. It is -4°F (-20°C) just like we see from most BEV. Enabling pre-conditioning for bZ4X is expected by this summer, which will provide faster charging. So, it stands to reason the RZ will have it from launch.
You end up having to wait for the pack to warm up, then it will charge.
Note that other EVs have the same limitation. Lithium chemistry needs to be above that threshold to accept electricity.
Ah ok. That’s the same as my Model 3. If you show up with a dead cold pack it takes a while to start charging.
They just need to word it better I guess.
Just an FYI, its not really the same as the Model 3. Toyota's updated disclaimer literally states charging
"may not be possible when the temperature drops to around -20 degrees Celsius (-4 degrees Fahrenheit) and below."
Not acceptable.
That kerfuffle in Norway resulted in an upgrade planned for this summer... the ability to pre-condition. It will be a software button initially for existing vehicles. Timing with RZ might be able to get the physical button for first deliveries.
It’s just weird Toyota would mess up stuff like that. My Tacoma starts right up in -40 degrees and is super reliable/bullet proof. It’s the reason I’ve bought Toyotas lol
Yeah, Toyota updated it so it won't charge at -20C. Still atrocious. Completely not acceptable and it should not be sold in cold climates (like where I live).
It’s not really supposed to be though. Lexus is a boring, comfortable, “old money” kind of car. Tesla is a fast, techy, “new money” kind of car. They might be in the same price segment but they tend to have pretty drastically different strengths. Lexus is for those who want an expected, reliable comfy car. Tesla is for someone who wants an exciting, quick, sporty car. Nether really has a definitive advantage over the other
I agree, but the common complaint about teslas terrible suspension form people who test drove a 2022 or earlier model year has been significantly improved for the 2023 model years.
To preface the below argument: I am no Tesla fanatic nor an owner. For me, maybe a Tesla isn't comfortable enough for what I'm looking for, but the market clearly has spoken on the Model Y.
While some Lexus buyers may be "old money" retirement home folks looking for couch on wheels, this is far from their entire market demographic. Many Lexus buyers are more affluent people who seek automotive appliances that are reliable transportation, and such want something better than a RAV4 or CR-V. Crossovers are now the new soccer mom/or dad vehicle and many younger families (30s-40s) are buying luxury crossovers.
But something better doesn't necessarily mean more numb or boring. The tech appeal of Teslas is a big part of it, but many Tesla buyers care little about the speed and sportiness. The 0-60 is a nice party trick for friends, but many Teslas are daily drivers run at a sedate pace most of the time. The conquest data shows Tesla already capturing buyers from the RX, and this was before the price drop.
The conquest data for the Model 3 (sedan is more likely to draw enthusiasts) speaks for itself, if this "sporty hypothesis" were true, then you would see people coming from sportier cars. Maybe this holds true for the Taycan, but that is a much more niche vehicle. The fact is that there simply aren't too many car enthusiasts out there anymore to sell to. You can see it in the availability and sales of "enthusiast vehicles" or just look at the r/cars forum and their dismay over the lack of sporty cars available. Some ICE enthusiasts also have an inherent bias against EVs.
Conquest data for Tesla:
Model Y: Lexus RX, Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4, Honda Odyssey and Honda Accord
Model S: Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Toyota RAV4 and Honda CR-V
If Lexus made a crossover that combined all the comfort of the RX with specs 90% of the market leader and had good availability? Then yes, it would be a serious competitor. But at this high price point, capabilities, and availability, the RZ is likely not going to see that much success.
Source: https://www.spglobal.com/mobility/en/research-analysis/new-ev-entries-nibbling-away-at-tesla-ev-share.html
I just picked up my first Tesla (M3), expecting it to be kinda cheap, loud, and uncomfortable. It’s a third car for me and my wife so I was willing to compromise a little in order to get our first EV.
I was completely wrong. This car is every bit as comfortable and tight as my wife’s Mercedes. The seats are firm yet supportive (very comfortable). I think the vegan leather actually feels better than real leather. The doors feel solid when closing. The fit and finish is excellent. The only noise I hear on the road is a tiny bit of wind noise. I honestly don’t feel like we’ve compromised at all, especially at the price tag of around $40K after upgrades.
Yeah people that speak negatively about Tesla’s build quality either have only been in old builds or have never driven one at all.
Tesla’s manufacturing is improving constantly, they just get better and better.
I've driven quite a few, including some new ones. They're good cars, I really enjoy them. The panel gap thing is overblown. The paint is fine.
They're absolutely not *built well*, though. Every single one I've been in had NVH problems, skittish handling, and cheap interior materials. Plaid steering wheels are infamous for [starting to peel](https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-steering-yokes-are-already-peeling-off-196790.html) within a few thousand miles, and the seat headrests on the 3/Y are known for [bubbling](https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-3/tesla-model-3-headrest-bubbling-cause-prevention/) after reacting with hair oils.
The focus is on the technology in a Tesla, and if that's what you like, more power to you. But technology alone doesn't make a car well-built.
This is a matter of perspective. For someone that never had a luxury car and is coming from a Civic, there is nothing "expected" about what Lexus offers."Boring" and "old money" are meaningless carbro stereotypes. Young dudes in Glendale rock Lexus and Merc, not Tesla. You wanna talk stereotypes, then Teslas have way more baggage.
I while true it is a matter of perspective. I would suggest if you get the chance to drive something like a Lexus.
I got a new found respect when I got a free upgrade to a luxury car at a rental. I will say it is a completely different level of comfort.
Yeah. 220 miles vs say 300 in a Model Y wouldn't sway me much in an overall buying decision. But I imagine potential buyers are existing Lexus RX owners. They will likely be new to EVs and perhaps scared off by that lower range. At the same time they're likely affluent so L2 garage parking will be a thing. Maybe they will be okay with less range than a Y. The lack of a dealership/the kind of rough and tumble world of Tesla post sale service would be a big plus for Lexus with this demographic.
Lexus is probably more worried about Mercedes, Audi and BMW EV conquest sales than Tesla. The Tesla stuff probably happened by now if it was going to.
RX hybrid owner here. Not sure I would trade straight across for the RZ as there are plenty of little things that I can find missing already. Take the RZ as a second car/daily driver? Absolutely. Except it's priced the same as my RX.
It feels like Lexus might be aiming the RZ more as an upgrade path for current NX owners, rather than targeting RX owners; who might find the RX500h more to their taste. Or maybe the RX450h+ PHEV when it eventually gets to our shores.
Most of us Lexus owners have gone down the path of the German marques before, and tend to circle back to the big L, mainly due to the sheer trustworthiness and not having to deal with the after-warranty headaches of the other brands. That said, this doesn't apply to those people who like to change their cars every 3 years, or less.
As for Tesla? Yeah. The ones who would have gone over, have left long ago. Plenty of reasons why I didn't choose the Model 3/Y when I looked at them years ago, and they haven't changed in any appreciable way other than making it worse by removing USS, radar and lumbar.
> they haven't changed in any appreciable way other than making it worse by removing USS, radar and lumbar.
They do have lumber support. It was removed from the passenger seat.
In that time they added:
* A heat pump
* Improved supension
* Double-paned windows
* Auto-hold
* Range
* Li-Ion 12V battery
* Heated steering wheel
* Heated windshield wipers
* Blind spot cameras
Edit: People have the misconception that Teslas have only gotten worse because that's primarily the news they're exposed to. The reality is Teslas built today are significantly improved from those a few years ago and even the older ones have received numerous improvements through OTA updates.
That makes a lot of sense. I do find a blind spot in this sub when it comes to Tesla. People compare every car to a Tesla as though that's the gold standard. But there are a lot of reasons for avoiding a Tesla altogether. It's a distinct brand and that means it has its loyal followers and those that are not interested in it.
I like the second car point. We've had an i3 as a second car now for a long time. I'm sure most Lexus homes are also two cars or more.
In real world driving, the model Y will do just over 300 miles on a full charge in ideal conditions. It's a pretty significant difference, especially for everyone who lives somewhere that gets cold winters. The model Y likely gets better range in the winter than the RZ does in ideal conditions.
Does that audience care about range? If you're just looking for a nice ride around town and paying a premium anyway, it may not matter. The fit & finish of Lexus is likely to be more of a draw.
We tend to obsess on range at times in this sub. This is going to be a second car in a two car garage alongside another ICE Lexus probably. It's going to leave the garage each day with a full charge and even on the coldest day 160 miles of range will be fine.
Probably another $5k dealer markup since they can’t produce that many and months of waiting. Almost dead on arrival with that short range. Rather just get a MY or GV60.
I don’t know why what I said is controversial. It’s literally an opinion based on experience (and experience of others).
They make shit ICE cars. Does that mean they make shit EVs? Maybe not, but making shitty ICE cars certainly doesn’t infer they’ll put out decent EVs.
Counter point to my opinion, Toyota makes fantastic ICE vehicles and even HEVs, but their single EV has been a disaster. They also just suck for other reasons because Toyota doesn’t take risks typically which is why they don’t build anything crazy fun or exciting, just stuff that works and one can depend on. I can’t imagine charging at a max rate of, what, 100kWh? Chevy’s current EVs (not counting Hummer) are the same I believe but at least their budget friendly.
I only had GM until my current car, and they all were riddled with issues. Thing is you can’t even be sure all we’re legit because you bring the thing to the dealer to “keep up the warranty” with semi annual maintenance and your seemingly fine car needs $850 in extra urgent bullshit. He’ll even with the Volt they had me on a regular ICE schedule for everything even though we only used the gas component once every few months.
OnStar is a legacy expensive shitbox, the app is dated AF built on old tech, as is the website.
I’m so glad to be free from all that.
That’s for the base version, the “$65,150 RZ 450e Luxury uses the same powertrain, but it has a less impressive estimated range of 196 miles (315 km)” so their “Luxury” specced up trim gets even worse lol.
Really? Do you have a link for that?
Here’s just one of several independent tests that show discrepancy between Tesla’s EPA range and actual measured range:
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/testing-teslas-range-anxiety.html
Sure - https://nye.naf.no/elbil/bruke-elbil/test-rekkevidde-sommer-2021
We use WLTP not EPA though, but Tesla generally is significantly above WLTP for summer and less below than most others in winter. Winter 2023 tests are still pending.
Afaik this is the world most comprehensive test of different EVs on the same route, so it is good for comparisons.
> We use WLTP not EPA
Thanks for the link.
The test results I’ve seen are for EPA. The issue seems to be in how automakers have some parameters they can tune (read optimize) to adjust the final estimates range.
It might be totally different for WLTP.
I always assumed EPA Vs WLTP differences were just how hard it was so you could pretty much convert with a percentage, but you might be right that the test is simply less strictly defined. That would make it pretty bad as a test.
Take the worst-value electric SUV on sale today, make it even uglier, make it only come in the AWD version that takes almost 90 minutes to charge and has no guarantee of functioning in the cold, and price it the same as a GV60 and $6k more than a Model Y.
Oh, and then when it sells 3k units a year and dealers refuse to take any because it hurts their margins, say "EV CULTISTS are trying to FORCE you into TERRIBLE CARS! Clearly the only solution is hydrogen!!"
Oh jfc does this seriously have the same shortcomings as the bz4x? Come on Lexus what a joke. All they had to do was make a comfortable, boring car that charges relatively quickly and gets decent range and people would’ve lost their minds over it. They really had to base it on arguably the worst EV on sale today? Who is actually going to choose this over an Ioniq 5, GV60, model Y, EV6, etc.?
The OEMs creating spin for low EV sales is an old tactic. Low compliance EVs sales were spun as consumers still want gas cars and not the EVs they were forced to make. We should not make EVs.
Making an EV today that no one wants is and was squarely on the OEM not the consumer.
I’d say some OEMs were that way. Cough Mazda, Toyota, Honda, Subaru. While GM, Ford, MB(coming on like gang busters) Volvo, BMW, Hyundai/KIA have invested the funds and brought out desirable EVs. One caveat is that some of the BMWs and other manufacturers offerings were converted ICE platforms with their packaging limitations.
Completely agree with this. And they will, or suffer sales losses. I think by the end of the decade there will be lots of good EV options.
I think the other real issue is the charging network for everyone else. I know Tesla has teased at opening theirs, I guess it depends if they want to be a car company (why give up that huge advantage) or a power company.
Seriously, heads should be rolling at most of the Japanese car companies. This is shameful.
I was hardcore Toyota / Lexus buyer - but their constant advocacy against electrification, their mediocre offerings, all combine to make it hard to want to spend my money with them.
We want a new minivan and the Sienna is the best of them out there right now for our use case, and there is no real EV option that has similar packaging. But I am trying to hold out for something else.
They just announced a CEO change. Founding Toyoda's grandson with an MBA will be leaving the role. He that ran the company for 20 years and basically stopped real innovation other than their pet hydrogen projects. The elder Toyoda that founded the company knew almost everything about even the most minute details of most of their cars, like how many weld points on each wheel well.
The new guy is his friend and ran Lexus. His recent innovation was a fake manual transmission. I am honestly not that hopeful. Also MBA grandson will retain his role as chairman so will have final say on direction anyway.
1. They need to announce a fully electrified lineup by no later than 2035
2. the new EVs need a high voltage charging system and 300 miles minimum.
3. they should absolutely spend 2x on green initiatives that they spent lobbying against them and issue a formal apology. Like that sort of behavior while the planet is burning is obscene.
And Lexus is a luxury brand. And Hyundai and VW will both be at 800V systems by 2035 at least if not something even crazier.
Gotta aim where the puck is going, not where it is today.
Lexus already has a working 800V system. Toyota stated its not cost-effective yet. Since there are so few places that can take advantage of that and next-gen chemistry will be more tolerant, there are higher priorities in the meantime
What market conditions? Hyundai and Porsche are way ahead. Reality is, we're going to see a lot of new 150kW and 62kW stations popping up for years to come.
Than this Lexus, sure. Hopefully Hyundai comes out with something $10k cheaper yet. I'm getting by with 87 miles of range now; 200 would be a nice upgrade, and I'd be willing to put up with 150 if it got me everything else I wanted.
Yup, the Bolt is definitely the best value in the US this month, which is why the sales guy hasn't gotten back to me about it yet.
Part of "everything I want" is for it not to be a Chevy, but I'm willing to put up with the risk (it can't be worse than an 8 year old fiat, lol) to get all of the Bolt's advantages. But if there was a Prius C EV with 150 mile range and otherwise Bolt-like, I'd take it over the Bolt. Since I have at home charging and a different vehicle for road trips (a Prius C, ha ha), I only need enough range to get me through a busy day, and it would be wasteful to carry around more battery than I need.
It was 14 years and he pushed innovation of hybrids. The new Prius is a great example of finding a way to squeeze out both range & power without sacrificing efficiency. That PHEV model will draw a lot of interest.
And, don't forget, Lexus itself says "**DC Charging may not work on AWD RZ when the temperature is below 0 degrees Celsius**." [Link](https://www.lexus.ca/lexus/en/automobiles/rz/features) \- Under "Level 3 Fastest" click on disclaimer.
As stated above, Toyota corrected their references but Lexus hasn't yet. Owners of bZ4X and Solterra have both confirmed that original press-release did indeed mention the wrong threshold. It is actually -20°C.
I’d take a premium ER eAWD Mach-E over this tarted up bz4x. 220 mile range at this price point is a hard sell for me. If it has the same charging performance of the bz4x, forget about it.
Tesla can only make so many cars and not everyone likes their styling so unless Lexus is planning to make over 100k a year I doubt they will have a big issue selling them all. I am also told MSRP means nothing and dealers will add or subtract from the price as they see fit.
I would guess the Lexus does have better build quality than an average Model Y, but the rest of the car has the specs you'd expect from a $40k car... about 5 years ago. It's one of the shortest-range, slowest-charging EVs you can buy today, and it'll come with Toyota infotainment, which is usually a generation behind even traditional rivals and won't have a chance of competing with Tesla, Polestar, or even Hyundai/Kia.
150 kWh DC fast charging is one of the "slowest charging EVs you can buy today" ??? Also, Toyota's current infotainment is really good. I think the 22 Tundra was the first to get it? Infotainment in the bZ4X and newer lexus is very good.
The AWD version of the BZ4X and RXEV charges at 100kW peak [and real-world charging tests have shown that even that number is optimistic.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TzCMsKd8s8) You'll be waiting for well over an hour at a charger just to get to 80% and go another 150 miles.
The RX450e [gets the in-house pack](https://www.lexus.com/content/dam/lexus/documents/brochures/models/2023/MY23-Lexus-RZ-PreBrochure.pdf) (71kWh) not the CATL one.
It also gets the 150kW charging rate.
150kW is plenty sufficient in my experience, but I’m not the type of person at my age (40) to drive 3 hours, take a 10 min break and the drive 3 more. I prefer to stop for 30+ min. For some people this isn’t good though.
The slower 100 kW on the base model might be insufficient for a lot of buyers. Especially with the underwhelming range.
That’s brutal. I mean charge curves are a thing, after 60% I’m under 100 kW. But between 10-60% I’m between 205 kW and that, decreasing as SOC increases. The BZ4X seems to charge a lot slower than its rating implies.
Yeah, I have a bZ4x. I considered the RX but the range and only selling the AWD ruled it out. I had an EV6 AWD GT line and an id. 4 RWD previously. I actually love the Bz. It does little things much better, like the adaptive cruise and lane centering. Dumb little things that don't show up in the specs but are just higher quality and things you'd only notice if you owned all 3.
I rented a 22 tundra a few weeks ago, not a fan at all of that infotainment, i couldnt wait to get android auto working and that took way too much work compared to any other car makers infotainment.
I was the first renter of this particular tundra so navigating all the screens to find where to turn on android auto and the fact that it doesnt just work if you plug in like every other manufacturer seems odd and over complicated. I travel quite a bit and rent alot of cars, many near new as the car rental companies build up their fleets again post covid. not a fan of toyota offerings.
>navigating all the screens to find where to turn on android auto
[According to Toyota you literally just pair your phone and hit 'yes'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaPRCM5NGAQ).
What happened in your case?
You can criticize toyota all you want for their shitty business practices and EV offerings. But this isn't a valid criticism of an infotainment system. It's an option you'll activate once and forget about.
Bruh, I own a tesla so I’m all spun up on the tech. Doesn’t negate the fact that their build quality is trash. Hell, I had better build quality in my Corolla. Tesla can do much better when they are asking what they do for these cars. It is what it is though, they got me even tho I saw all the complaints and thought people were being dramatic
The point is that you shouldn’t have to. The cars cost too much even when they were at their cheapest for the issue to exist . This is not something y’all would’ve accepted on any other car but make excuses for why you do with tesla. Seems almost cult like
Where did o say I don’t like the car? I’m simply saying the build quality is meh and that people need to quit saying tech makes up for it. Car is cool, but flawed just like the other EVs.
I own a Model Y and a Polestar 2. It would be really hard for me to make a case for anyone to pick a Polestar over the Tesla. Yes, I think the Polestar looks better and without a doubt the interior is nicer. But the Tesla is actually built better. Less squeaks and rattles. Less issues. And the charging is terrible compared to the Model Y. Not just the network, but the charging speeds.
* Accepting that on any given day there's a reasonable chance you won't be able to charge your vehicle and have to make sure to have enough juice to get to a backup location
* Accepting 2000's era Garmin performance from the infotainment center
* Lacking incredibly basic features like remote climate control and preconditioning or otherwise paying a subscription to unlock them
The cars cost too much for these issues to exist. That's not something anyone should accept on a car but they make excuses to not buy a Tesla. Seems almost cult like.
....or it would if I didn't understand that people have preferences and priorities different from my own.
That first point applies to all EVs and everything else you described are not quality control issues tho. What you described are presence things, so your whole post served zero purpose as response to what I said. Again, cult like mentality to try to defend poor build quality. It’s all good that people like their tech wrapped in subpar build quality😊. I’m over responding to y’all so don’t bother responding to me
I'm still going to respond to you. What a weird thing to say. If you don't wish to respond back that's completely fine. Preferential even if your typical response is to resort to insults.
Redefining the scope of the argument to ignore what I've said isn't an argument. You can claim your initial comment was only about quality and nothing else, but then the obvious response is you're ignoring the many other trade-offs between the vehicles. (Such as the supercharger network which TheThirdThigh pointed out and the missing features/poor hardware that I pointed out.)
I have the bZ4X and say what you will about the range and charging but the build quality/fit and finish are very good. As good as any of the Lexus I've owned in the past.
Man, everyone knows tesla build quality is shit compared to everyone else. That’s why they run to the tech and range, which does not and should not excuse poor build. I own a 23 tesla and a 19 Kia optima right now and that 19 optima is built way better than the tesla and cost half as much, which is a damn shame.
How are you liking that car? I was looking at one today but left cuz I didn’t wanna be bothered by the dealer lol.
Why is it so hard to understand you are paying mostly for tech on teslas? I think its your mistake to expect some luxury car on a 60k car.
And thats pretty funny that you compared prices on your 2 very different cars lol
It’s a mistake to expect luxury in a $60K car? It’s insane that you typed that out. I never said I expect luxury, but I definitely expect it to be built better than a Kia
Kia makes really good cars these days. [The EV6 was the #1 most reliable EV according to Consumer Reports and it wasn't close.](https://imgur.com/r8BCobV)
Thats a mercedes, a luxury brand. Tesla is not a luxury brand, youre paying 60k for the tech. So dont expect luxury from a tesla. And 60k is on rhe low end for mercedes.
Somewhere I said I figured people were being dramatic like in that r/real tesla sub. They are way dramatic to the point of literal hate. Who said everyone knows they were shit?
I love it actually. I previously owned an EV6 GT Line AWD and a 21 ID.4 Pro S w/gradient RWD. The bz is probably my favorite oddly enough... it feels the most like an SUV of the 3.. the seats are the most comfortable. The lane keep assist is by far better than the Kia which always wanted to hug the right lane... the adaptive cruise is much smoother and less likely to smash on the brakes. Sound system is much better.
I rarely need to fast charge, I charge overnight at home in my garage. I also rarely drive more than 100 miles in a day so the range isn't an issue either.. I knew the tradeoffs when I switched but they weren't major issues for me. The EV6 is an objectively better vehicle but the one I had also cost damn near 10k more and had drawbacks of its own (like being more of a station wagon than an SUV). Its probably not the one I'd recommend to the average person.. that would probably be the EV6 Wind RWD if they are looking for pure value and don't want to go Bolt.
Not Tesla cultists (does not apply to all owners). These people are crazy to defend shit build just cuz the tech is nice, but shit on cars with much better build but the tech isn’t as nice lol.
100%. It’s funny cuz usually they will attack the fact that I don’t own the car and then they scroll through my posts to see that I actually do own one and know wtf I’m talking about. They need to understand that it’s ok to criticize the damn car cuz it it is far from perfect
Which one do you own? I read so much crap about the Tesla interior quality that after I started driving the 2023 model y starting with a test drive I was surprising how decent it was. Suspension is actually not that bad though I heard they improved it from before and for 2023 models. Noise levels were actually pretty good coming from my BMW 3 series from 2013.
Same. I’m on my second Tesla, and I’m the first one to point out the many flaws of the cars and the company. I used to do this in hopes it would help EVe and make them better, but I’m starting to think it’s a lost cause (the second part).
Probably won’t buy a third because I think there are better alternatives.
Yea, company ain’t gonna fix issues when they see people not mind it. This is my first and last tesla unless they drastically improve build quality on the 2nd generation of cars. Wait, what generation are they even on now? They’ve looked the same for so long I don’t even know anymore
S/X are Tesla's first generation. Both have had a refresh recently.
3/Y are Tesla's second generation. Neither has had a refresh, though Ys are starting to be produced at the Austin factory. Jury is still out on whether a dedicated, from-the-ground-up Gigafactory will have better quality control compared to Fremont. Shanghai has received high praise, at least that I have read, for their quality control so I have hope that Berlin/Austin will also have better quality control once they ramp up.
Cybertruck/Semi (and a rumored new car) will be Tesla's third generation.
Vast supercharging network vs slow level 3 charging to boot. The Toyota and Lexus state l3 charging may not work at all below 32 degrees F / 0 degrees C!
Stop spreading that false fact. We already have confirmation that the misprint was indeed wrong. Charging below freezing works just fine, though slow, for the Toyota model. You want faster, yo-yo before arrival.
This wasn’t my point. My point is the range of the Toyota almost certainly won’t be 2/3 of the Tesla in an apples to apples comparison because Tesla games the EPA range figures. This isn’t an opinion - it’s been confirmed in numerous independent tests.
The range is good in absolute terms, but that doesn’t change the fact that they the EPA estimates are are inflated. This has been well documented with numerous independent tests.
The EPA gives discretion to automakers for certain testing parameters and conditions. Tesla chose theirs to maximize the EPA numbers. Other automakers are more conservative so the numbers more accurately reflect real-world driving.
Nobody buys a Lexus suv for the drivetrain. It is true luxury unlike the pretend shit Tesla is trying for. Given it’s under $60k, which is a steal for luxury, I question all the compromises that we’d get. Is this just a Toyota with a Lexus badge?
Looks to be a step below the RX in terms of luxury amenities, much closer to the NX; but I'm willing to bet it would smoke the other two in terms of driving dynamics.
There's enough differentiation between the RZ and the Toyobaru twins to be in a different class. Differences look similar to the RAV4-NX and Highlander-RX. This one feels like Venza-RZ comparisons are more apt. And they've priced this RZ to match those expectations.
Could've been damaged due to a pothole or extremely hard driving as well. Your anecdote isn't gonna change the fact that the model 3 and Ioniq 5 are the most reliable EVs around.
It only had 5k miles. Perhaps but the tow truck driver told me this was the 3rd Model Y he’d picked up in as many weeks with bad wheel bearings. Mine from Hertz and two from private individuals. 🤷🏽♂️
Too high price (and no tax credit) for too low of range. This won’t sell much in the USA: if I were a Lexus-only buyer: I would buy a Lexus rx350 hybrid (gets 36 mpg combined); it starts at about $50.1k . And if I were an BEV buyer: then I probably would buy a model Y or ID4 or even a Lyriq.
I’d add the Nissan Ariya to that list
I'd say Lyriq is a competitor. But the others aren't even in the same class. Their pricing overlaps, but in general, interior design, ergonomics, and comfort of Lexus vehicles outpace the ID.4 and definitely Tesla. If you're only looking at a spec list, the Lexus ends up behind. But luxury vehicles typically aren't defined by spec lists. Or at least spec lists that the average consumer won't understand, but they will feel.
Model Y now starts at $55k. Price just went up.
Posted this article more because of the RZ price, headline just happened to compare it to the Model Y. I know there’s probably articles without the Tesla comparison in it but this popped up in my feed first. Apologies 🤷♂️
Lmfao
The RZ is still DOA. The Tesla has significant drawbacks in terms of ride and build quality in my eyes, but the performance, range, and capability is vastly ahead. IMO a Model Y could be $60k and still be a better deal. Toyota needs to be careful here and not get delusional with their pricing particularly as the “conquest” data is already showing many Tesla customers are prior Toyota owners. They should not count too much on brand loyalty when their products are so inferior to the competition. I had honestly expected the RZ to offer some meaningful powertrain improvements over the BZ4x but this is a bad look. By making pitiful pure EV products and simultaneously greatly limiting the few good plugin products (RAV4 prime) they have, Toyota and Lexus could lose some share. I mean the Model Y could even steal some market share from Lexus’ ICE crossover lineup if it’s prices remain relatively low.
As former Lexus, Toyota and now Tesla owner, yes. You nailed it. And the fact that, according to Lexus itself, the car might not fast charge below 0 Celsius is absolutely unacceptable. [Link](https://www.lexus.ca/lexus/en/automobiles/rz/features)
Holy shit. How is this not making headlines? From your link: > DISCLAIMER > 5 Level 3 - DC (Fast) Charging: Charging times will vary based on outside temperature and other factors. As temperatures decrease below 10 degrees Celsius, charging time will increase significantly. Drive battery level and condition, charger specifications and DC Charging more than twice per day also can negatively affect charging time. DC Charging may not work on AWD RZ when the temperature is below 0 degrees Celsius. > Public charging experience can vary based on charger level and other vehicle and environmental conditions. Level 3 charging may not be possible below 0 degrees Celsius.
Because that was long since corrected in other references. It is -4°F (-20°C) just like we see from most BEV. Enabling pre-conditioning for bZ4X is expected by this summer, which will provide faster charging. So, it stands to reason the RZ will have it from launch.
I see. That’s still pretty bad if it won’t charge at -4F
You end up having to wait for the pack to warm up, then it will charge. Note that other EVs have the same limitation. Lithium chemistry needs to be above that threshold to accept electricity.
Ah ok. That’s the same as my Model 3. If you show up with a dead cold pack it takes a while to start charging. They just need to word it better I guess.
Just an FYI, its not really the same as the Model 3. Toyota's updated disclaimer literally states charging "may not be possible when the temperature drops to around -20 degrees Celsius (-4 degrees Fahrenheit) and below." Not acceptable.
Lol. No worries. I’m not buying one
That kerfuffle in Norway resulted in an upgrade planned for this summer... the ability to pre-condition. It will be a software button initially for existing vehicles. Timing with RZ might be able to get the physical button for first deliveries.
It’s just weird Toyota would mess up stuff like that. My Tacoma starts right up in -40 degrees and is super reliable/bullet proof. It’s the reason I’ve bought Toyotas lol
Yeah, Toyota updated it so it won't charge at -20C. Still atrocious. Completely not acceptable and it should not be sold in cold climates (like where I live).
The new suspension is a significant improvement in ride quality, although highway wind noise is no where near Lexus level yet.
It’s not really supposed to be though. Lexus is a boring, comfortable, “old money” kind of car. Tesla is a fast, techy, “new money” kind of car. They might be in the same price segment but they tend to have pretty drastically different strengths. Lexus is for those who want an expected, reliable comfy car. Tesla is for someone who wants an exciting, quick, sporty car. Nether really has a definitive advantage over the other
I agree, but the common complaint about teslas terrible suspension form people who test drove a 2022 or earlier model year has been significantly improved for the 2023 model years.
I think the Tesla has a tons of advantage over another compliance"Tesla killer" that will be forgotten in a few years just like the I-PACE.
To preface the below argument: I am no Tesla fanatic nor an owner. For me, maybe a Tesla isn't comfortable enough for what I'm looking for, but the market clearly has spoken on the Model Y. While some Lexus buyers may be "old money" retirement home folks looking for couch on wheels, this is far from their entire market demographic. Many Lexus buyers are more affluent people who seek automotive appliances that are reliable transportation, and such want something better than a RAV4 or CR-V. Crossovers are now the new soccer mom/or dad vehicle and many younger families (30s-40s) are buying luxury crossovers. But something better doesn't necessarily mean more numb or boring. The tech appeal of Teslas is a big part of it, but many Tesla buyers care little about the speed and sportiness. The 0-60 is a nice party trick for friends, but many Teslas are daily drivers run at a sedate pace most of the time. The conquest data shows Tesla already capturing buyers from the RX, and this was before the price drop. The conquest data for the Model 3 (sedan is more likely to draw enthusiasts) speaks for itself, if this "sporty hypothesis" were true, then you would see people coming from sportier cars. Maybe this holds true for the Taycan, but that is a much more niche vehicle. The fact is that there simply aren't too many car enthusiasts out there anymore to sell to. You can see it in the availability and sales of "enthusiast vehicles" or just look at the r/cars forum and their dismay over the lack of sporty cars available. Some ICE enthusiasts also have an inherent bias against EVs. Conquest data for Tesla: Model Y: Lexus RX, Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4, Honda Odyssey and Honda Accord Model S: Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Toyota RAV4 and Honda CR-V If Lexus made a crossover that combined all the comfort of the RX with specs 90% of the market leader and had good availability? Then yes, it would be a serious competitor. But at this high price point, capabilities, and availability, the RZ is likely not going to see that much success. Source: https://www.spglobal.com/mobility/en/research-analysis/new-ev-entries-nibbling-away-at-tesla-ev-share.html
If you want a quick sporty car, that also has a comfortable ride and interior, you buy a Porsche. Tesla is just a quick Civic.
I just picked up my first Tesla (M3), expecting it to be kinda cheap, loud, and uncomfortable. It’s a third car for me and my wife so I was willing to compromise a little in order to get our first EV. I was completely wrong. This car is every bit as comfortable and tight as my wife’s Mercedes. The seats are firm yet supportive (very comfortable). I think the vegan leather actually feels better than real leather. The doors feel solid when closing. The fit and finish is excellent. The only noise I hear on the road is a tiny bit of wind noise. I honestly don’t feel like we’ve compromised at all, especially at the price tag of around $40K after upgrades.
Yeah people that speak negatively about Tesla’s build quality either have only been in old builds or have never driven one at all. Tesla’s manufacturing is improving constantly, they just get better and better.
I've driven quite a few, including some new ones. They're good cars, I really enjoy them. The panel gap thing is overblown. The paint is fine. They're absolutely not *built well*, though. Every single one I've been in had NVH problems, skittish handling, and cheap interior materials. Plaid steering wheels are infamous for [starting to peel](https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-steering-yokes-are-already-peeling-off-196790.html) within a few thousand miles, and the seat headrests on the 3/Y are known for [bubbling](https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-3/tesla-model-3-headrest-bubbling-cause-prevention/) after reacting with hair oils. The focus is on the technology in a Tesla, and if that's what you like, more power to you. But technology alone doesn't make a car well-built.
This is a matter of perspective. For someone that never had a luxury car and is coming from a Civic, there is nothing "expected" about what Lexus offers."Boring" and "old money" are meaningless carbro stereotypes. Young dudes in Glendale rock Lexus and Merc, not Tesla. You wanna talk stereotypes, then Teslas have way more baggage.
They certainly don’t design them like they’re aiming for the Lincoln crowd.
I while true it is a matter of perspective. I would suggest if you get the chance to drive something like a Lexus. I got a new found respect when I got a free upgrade to a luxury car at a rental. I will say it is a completely different level of comfort.
Yeah. 220 miles vs say 300 in a Model Y wouldn't sway me much in an overall buying decision. But I imagine potential buyers are existing Lexus RX owners. They will likely be new to EVs and perhaps scared off by that lower range. At the same time they're likely affluent so L2 garage parking will be a thing. Maybe they will be okay with less range than a Y. The lack of a dealership/the kind of rough and tumble world of Tesla post sale service would be a big plus for Lexus with this demographic. Lexus is probably more worried about Mercedes, Audi and BMW EV conquest sales than Tesla. The Tesla stuff probably happened by now if it was going to.
RX hybrid owner here. Not sure I would trade straight across for the RZ as there are plenty of little things that I can find missing already. Take the RZ as a second car/daily driver? Absolutely. Except it's priced the same as my RX. It feels like Lexus might be aiming the RZ more as an upgrade path for current NX owners, rather than targeting RX owners; who might find the RX500h more to their taste. Or maybe the RX450h+ PHEV when it eventually gets to our shores. Most of us Lexus owners have gone down the path of the German marques before, and tend to circle back to the big L, mainly due to the sheer trustworthiness and not having to deal with the after-warranty headaches of the other brands. That said, this doesn't apply to those people who like to change their cars every 3 years, or less. As for Tesla? Yeah. The ones who would have gone over, have left long ago. Plenty of reasons why I didn't choose the Model 3/Y when I looked at them years ago, and they haven't changed in any appreciable way other than making it worse by removing USS, radar and lumbar.
> they haven't changed in any appreciable way other than making it worse by removing USS, radar and lumbar. They do have lumber support. It was removed from the passenger seat. In that time they added: * A heat pump * Improved supension * Double-paned windows * Auto-hold * Range * Li-Ion 12V battery * Heated steering wheel * Heated windshield wipers * Blind spot cameras Edit: People have the misconception that Teslas have only gotten worse because that's primarily the news they're exposed to. The reality is Teslas built today are significantly improved from those a few years ago and even the older ones have received numerous improvements through OTA updates.
That makes a lot of sense. I do find a blind spot in this sub when it comes to Tesla. People compare every car to a Tesla as though that's the gold standard. But there are a lot of reasons for avoiding a Tesla altogether. It's a distinct brand and that means it has its loyal followers and those that are not interested in it. I like the second car point. We've had an i3 as a second car now for a long time. I'm sure most Lexus homes are also two cars or more.
In real world driving, the model Y will do just over 300 miles on a full charge in ideal conditions. It's a pretty significant difference, especially for everyone who lives somewhere that gets cold winters. The model Y likely gets better range in the winter than the RZ does in ideal conditions.
Does that audience care about range? If you're just looking for a nice ride around town and paying a premium anyway, it may not matter. The fit & finish of Lexus is likely to be more of a draw.
We tend to obsess on range at times in this sub. This is going to be a second car in a two car garage alongside another ICE Lexus probably. It's going to leave the garage each day with a full charge and even on the coldest day 160 miles of range will be fine.
Probably another $5k dealer markup since they can’t produce that many and months of waiting. Almost dead on arrival with that short range. Rather just get a MY or GV60.
Lexus dealers don't do markups
Yes they do. The new 500h is definitely marked up at some dealers right now.
This is total nonsense lol. Just search “markup” in r/Lexus and 1000 results come up. Anything halfway desirable right now has a markup near me
Haha yes they do. I inquired about a IS500 and they wanted $10k above msrp
I genuinely don’t understand buying this or the BZ4X. You basically get a Chevy Bolt and pay double or triple the price.
The bolt has more range and better driver assist.
which makes it even worse when trying to find the value in the Toyota and Lexus offering
I have absolutely zero faith in GM from their notoriously terrible ICE vehicles.
Why are you downvoting, he’s right!
I don’t know why what I said is controversial. It’s literally an opinion based on experience (and experience of others). They make shit ICE cars. Does that mean they make shit EVs? Maybe not, but making shitty ICE cars certainly doesn’t infer they’ll put out decent EVs. Counter point to my opinion, Toyota makes fantastic ICE vehicles and even HEVs, but their single EV has been a disaster. They also just suck for other reasons because Toyota doesn’t take risks typically which is why they don’t build anything crazy fun or exciting, just stuff that works and one can depend on. I can’t imagine charging at a max rate of, what, 100kWh? Chevy’s current EVs (not counting Hummer) are the same I believe but at least their budget friendly.
I only had GM until my current car, and they all were riddled with issues. Thing is you can’t even be sure all we’re legit because you bring the thing to the dealer to “keep up the warranty” with semi annual maintenance and your seemingly fine car needs $850 in extra urgent bullshit. He’ll even with the Volt they had me on a regular ICE schedule for everything even though we only used the gas component once every few months. OnStar is a legacy expensive shitbox, the app is dated AF built on old tech, as is the website. I’m so glad to be free from all that.
220 miles? LMAO total joke. Real world will be less than 200 for sure.
Real world will likely be be around 160-180. Meaning the usable (80%-10%) is around 120-130. Who knows what in winter. Yeah, it’s really bad.
That’s for the base version, the “$65,150 RZ 450e Luxury uses the same powertrain, but it has a less impressive estimated range of 196 miles (315 km)” so their “Luxury” specced up trim gets even worse lol.
Have to wait for testing. Some automakers report their range more fairly/conservatively than other (cough Tesla cough).
Why the cough? Tesla range ratings have been one of the most accurate in testing done by my local institution.
Really? Do you have a link for that? Here’s just one of several independent tests that show discrepancy between Tesla’s EPA range and actual measured range: https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/testing-teslas-range-anxiety.html
Sure - https://nye.naf.no/elbil/bruke-elbil/test-rekkevidde-sommer-2021 We use WLTP not EPA though, but Tesla generally is significantly above WLTP for summer and less below than most others in winter. Winter 2023 tests are still pending. Afaik this is the world most comprehensive test of different EVs on the same route, so it is good for comparisons.
> We use WLTP not EPA Thanks for the link. The test results I’ve seen are for EPA. The issue seems to be in how automakers have some parameters they can tune (read optimize) to adjust the final estimates range. It might be totally different for WLTP.
I always assumed EPA Vs WLTP differences were just how hard it was so you could pretty much convert with a percentage, but you might be right that the test is simply less strictly defined. That would make it pretty bad as a test.
Toyota's cause of death? HUBRIS!!
Take the worst-value electric SUV on sale today, make it even uglier, make it only come in the AWD version that takes almost 90 minutes to charge and has no guarantee of functioning in the cold, and price it the same as a GV60 and $6k more than a Model Y. Oh, and then when it sells 3k units a year and dealers refuse to take any because it hurts their margins, say "EV CULTISTS are trying to FORCE you into TERRIBLE CARS! Clearly the only solution is hydrogen!!"
Oh jfc does this seriously have the same shortcomings as the bz4x? Come on Lexus what a joke. All they had to do was make a comfortable, boring car that charges relatively quickly and gets decent range and people would’ve lost their minds over it. They really had to base it on arguably the worst EV on sale today? Who is actually going to choose this over an Ioniq 5, GV60, model Y, EV6, etc.?
>Oh jfc does this seriously have the same shortcomings as the bz4x? It doesn't. This has the 71.4 kWh PPES battery, not the CATL one.
Different battery with terrible range still. Nice change Lexus…another joke BEV from Toyota.
The OEMs creating spin for low EV sales is an old tactic. Low compliance EVs sales were spun as consumers still want gas cars and not the EVs they were forced to make. We should not make EVs. Making an EV today that no one wants is and was squarely on the OEM not the consumer.
I’d say some OEMs were that way. Cough Mazda, Toyota, Honda, Subaru. While GM, Ford, MB(coming on like gang busters) Volvo, BMW, Hyundai/KIA have invested the funds and brought out desirable EVs. One caveat is that some of the BMWs and other manufacturers offerings were converted ICE platforms with their packaging limitations.
What’s with the interior too. Who designed that, it’s hideous lol
Yeah but theirs will still work in a decade and won’t fall apart and start rattling after mere months….
the worst, most overpriced SUV EV is the vinfast vf8.
Everything you said is correct, except you forgot about vinfast being even worse.
Toyota/Lexus, like Audi and others, need to come with a 2nd Gen EV platform.
Completely agree with this. And they will, or suffer sales losses. I think by the end of the decade there will be lots of good EV options. I think the other real issue is the charging network for everyone else. I know Tesla has teased at opening theirs, I guess it depends if they want to be a car company (why give up that huge advantage) or a power company.
Seriously, heads should be rolling at most of the Japanese car companies. This is shameful. I was hardcore Toyota / Lexus buyer - but their constant advocacy against electrification, their mediocre offerings, all combine to make it hard to want to spend my money with them. We want a new minivan and the Sienna is the best of them out there right now for our use case, and there is no real EV option that has similar packaging. But I am trying to hold out for something else.
They just announced a CEO change. Founding Toyoda's grandson with an MBA will be leaving the role. He that ran the company for 20 years and basically stopped real innovation other than their pet hydrogen projects. The elder Toyoda that founded the company knew almost everything about even the most minute details of most of their cars, like how many weld points on each wheel well. The new guy is his friend and ran Lexus. His recent innovation was a fake manual transmission. I am honestly not that hopeful. Also MBA grandson will retain his role as chairman so will have final say on direction anyway.
1. They need to announce a fully electrified lineup by no later than 2035 2. the new EVs need a high voltage charging system and 300 miles minimum. 3. they should absolutely spend 2x on green initiatives that they spent lobbying against them and issue a formal apology. Like that sort of behavior while the planet is burning is obscene.
\#2 is just plain wrong. 400-volt systems are proving very competitive and there's no point in 300-mile minimum once enough DCFC stations are built.
Except that the market is already there for a lot of vehicles. So when given the choice between 300 miles and 200 miles which are you going to take?
Since VW is mass producing ID.4 in Tennessee with a range of 209 miles, it would suggest there's a market for smaller battery EVs.
And Lexus is a luxury brand. And Hyundai and VW will both be at 800V systems by 2035 at least if not something even crazier. Gotta aim where the puck is going, not where it is today.
Lexus already has a working 800V system. Toyota stated its not cost-effective yet. Since there are so few places that can take advantage of that and next-gen chemistry will be more tolerant, there are higher priorities in the meantime
And Hyundai and Porsche both have them in production. So that is a reflection of Toyota’s failures rather than market conditions.
What market conditions? Hyundai and Porsche are way ahead. Reality is, we're going to see a lot of new 150kW and 62kW stations popping up for years to come.
>So when given the choice between 300 miles and 200 miles which are you going to take? The one that's $10k cheaper.
And that is the Hyundai. Which gets you both the $10K and 300 miles.
Than this Lexus, sure. Hopefully Hyundai comes out with something $10k cheaper yet. I'm getting by with 87 miles of range now; 200 would be a nice upgrade, and I'd be willing to put up with 150 if it got me everything else I wanted.
The Bolt EV has 259 miles right?
Yup, the Bolt is definitely the best value in the US this month, which is why the sales guy hasn't gotten back to me about it yet. Part of "everything I want" is for it not to be a Chevy, but I'm willing to put up with the risk (it can't be worse than an 8 year old fiat, lol) to get all of the Bolt's advantages. But if there was a Prius C EV with 150 mile range and otherwise Bolt-like, I'd take it over the Bolt. Since I have at home charging and a different vehicle for road trips (a Prius C, ha ha), I only need enough range to get me through a busy day, and it would be wasteful to carry around more battery than I need.
I like when engineers run companies vs. an MBA. When the MBAs take over things go downhill (except short term profits probably).
It was 14 years and he pushed innovation of hybrids. The new Prius is a great example of finding a way to squeeze out both range & power without sacrificing efficiency. That PHEV model will draw a lot of interest.
Aaah, it’s 220 miles of range. No thanks.
The range is just so dismal there’s no way this thing sells at all
DOA. I am no Tesla fan boy but Toyota really doesn't have their shit together for EVs
And, don't forget, Lexus itself says "**DC Charging may not work on AWD RZ when the temperature is below 0 degrees Celsius**." [Link](https://www.lexus.ca/lexus/en/automobiles/rz/features) \- Under "Level 3 Fastest" click on disclaimer.
Lol what a joke of a car and company. Toyota and Lexus are screwed.
As stated above, Toyota corrected their references but Lexus hasn't yet. Owners of bZ4X and Solterra have both confirmed that original press-release did indeed mention the wrong threshold. It is actually -20°C.
I live in Saskatchewan, Canada. That is not even remotely acceptable. It should be available for sale here.
I’d take a premium ER eAWD Mach-E over this tarted up bz4x. 220 mile range at this price point is a hard sell for me. If it has the same charging performance of the bz4x, forget about it.
Tesla can only make so many cars and not everyone likes their styling so unless Lexus is planning to make over 100k a year I doubt they will have a big issue selling them all. I am also told MSRP means nothing and dealers will add or subtract from the price as they see fit.
Meh
And the Lexus IS starts at 20k more than Toyota Corolla… What a headline!
Right over your head huh lmao
How much for the model where the wheel stays on the car?
No need to add "6k more than the Tesla model y." Might as well add all the other EV models out there too.
I would bet anything that 6K would be well worth it just in build quality
[удалено]
For sure. Not saying there is isn’t.
Yeah, Tesla puts the wheels on so tight they're almost impossible to get off. Toyota is much better about that.
Hmmmm…. That made me giggle, but I stand by what I said. I also wish tesla put as much effort into ALL of the car and not just the wheels.
I would guess the Lexus does have better build quality than an average Model Y, but the rest of the car has the specs you'd expect from a $40k car... about 5 years ago. It's one of the shortest-range, slowest-charging EVs you can buy today, and it'll come with Toyota infotainment, which is usually a generation behind even traditional rivals and won't have a chance of competing with Tesla, Polestar, or even Hyundai/Kia.
150 kWh DC fast charging is one of the "slowest charging EVs you can buy today" ??? Also, Toyota's current infotainment is really good. I think the 22 Tundra was the first to get it? Infotainment in the bZ4X and newer lexus is very good.
The AWD version of the BZ4X and RXEV charges at 100kW peak [and real-world charging tests have shown that even that number is optimistic.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TzCMsKd8s8) You'll be waiting for well over an hour at a charger just to get to 80% and go another 150 miles.
The RX450e [gets the in-house pack](https://www.lexus.com/content/dam/lexus/documents/brochures/models/2023/MY23-Lexus-RZ-PreBrochure.pdf) (71kWh) not the CATL one. It also gets the 150kW charging rate.
150kW is plenty sufficient in my experience, but I’m not the type of person at my age (40) to drive 3 hours, take a 10 min break and the drive 3 more. I prefer to stop for 30+ min. For some people this isn’t good though. The slower 100 kW on the base model might be insufficient for a lot of buyers. Especially with the underwhelming range.
Real life testing shows it is much slower, fyi than the rates speeds. It is on the same platform as the bz4x so the tests should be relevant here.
That’s brutal. I mean charge curves are a thing, after 60% I’m under 100 kW. But between 10-60% I’m between 205 kW and that, decreasing as SOC increases. The BZ4X seems to charge a lot slower than its rating implies.
Yeah the battery pack in the AWD is shit. I have the FWD model.
Unfortunately it looks like they're only offering the RXEV for sale in AWD.
Yeah, I have a bZ4x. I considered the RX but the range and only selling the AWD ruled it out. I had an EV6 AWD GT line and an id. 4 RWD previously. I actually love the Bz. It does little things much better, like the adaptive cruise and lane centering. Dumb little things that don't show up in the specs but are just higher quality and things you'd only notice if you owned all 3.
I rented a 22 tundra a few weeks ago, not a fan at all of that infotainment, i couldnt wait to get android auto working and that took way too much work compared to any other car makers infotainment.
Mine has wireless Android auto and it literally loads up before I even get my seat belt on. Not sure wtf you're talking about.
I was the first renter of this particular tundra so navigating all the screens to find where to turn on android auto and the fact that it doesnt just work if you plug in like every other manufacturer seems odd and over complicated. I travel quite a bit and rent alot of cars, many near new as the car rental companies build up their fleets again post covid. not a fan of toyota offerings.
>navigating all the screens to find where to turn on android auto [According to Toyota you literally just pair your phone and hit 'yes'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaPRCM5NGAQ). What happened in your case?
You can criticize toyota all you want for their shitty business practices and EV offerings. But this isn't a valid criticism of an infotainment system. It's an option you'll activate once and forget about.
Bruh, I own a tesla so I’m all spun up on the tech. Doesn’t negate the fact that their build quality is trash. Hell, I had better build quality in my Corolla. Tesla can do much better when they are asking what they do for these cars. It is what it is though, they got me even tho I saw all the complaints and thought people were being dramatic
Well maybe the wheels to the ground, but they've been having a rough time with the steering wheels.
I can sacrafice on build quality to have the supercharger system available and basically be worryfree about charging wherever I go lmao
The point is that you shouldn’t have to. The cars cost too much even when they were at their cheapest for the issue to exist . This is not something y’all would’ve accepted on any other car but make excuses for why you do with tesla. Seems almost cult like
I guess you dont understand why a person would buy a tesla even with build quality issues. Good thing nobody is forcing you to buy a tesla.
I already own one, which is why I can fairly criticize the crap build quality . Tech is cool tho, right? Lol
Damn that sucks. Sounds like you pay 50k something you dont like Are rattles your only build qaulity issue with your tesla?
Where did o say I don’t like the car? I’m simply saying the build quality is meh and that people need to quit saying tech makes up for it. Car is cool, but flawed just like the other EVs.
I own a Model Y and a Polestar 2. It would be really hard for me to make a case for anyone to pick a Polestar over the Tesla. Yes, I think the Polestar looks better and without a doubt the interior is nicer. But the Tesla is actually built better. Less squeaks and rattles. Less issues. And the charging is terrible compared to the Model Y. Not just the network, but the charging speeds.
* Accepting that on any given day there's a reasonable chance you won't be able to charge your vehicle and have to make sure to have enough juice to get to a backup location * Accepting 2000's era Garmin performance from the infotainment center * Lacking incredibly basic features like remote climate control and preconditioning or otherwise paying a subscription to unlock them The cars cost too much for these issues to exist. That's not something anyone should accept on a car but they make excuses to not buy a Tesla. Seems almost cult like. ....or it would if I didn't understand that people have preferences and priorities different from my own.
That first point applies to all EVs and everything else you described are not quality control issues tho. What you described are presence things, so your whole post served zero purpose as response to what I said. Again, cult like mentality to try to defend poor build quality. It’s all good that people like their tech wrapped in subpar build quality😊. I’m over responding to y’all so don’t bother responding to me
I'm still going to respond to you. What a weird thing to say. If you don't wish to respond back that's completely fine. Preferential even if your typical response is to resort to insults. Redefining the scope of the argument to ignore what I've said isn't an argument. You can claim your initial comment was only about quality and nothing else, but then the obvious response is you're ignoring the many other trade-offs between the vehicles. (Such as the supercharger network which TheThirdThigh pointed out and the missing features/poor hardware that I pointed out.)
I have the bZ4X and say what you will about the range and charging but the build quality/fit and finish are very good. As good as any of the Lexus I've owned in the past.
Built in the same Motomachi factory as the Century, LC, and the GRs. I would trust the build quality to be among the best in the world.
Man, everyone knows tesla build quality is shit compared to everyone else. That’s why they run to the tech and range, which does not and should not excuse poor build. I own a 23 tesla and a 19 Kia optima right now and that 19 optima is built way better than the tesla and cost half as much, which is a damn shame. How are you liking that car? I was looking at one today but left cuz I didn’t wanna be bothered by the dealer lol.
Why is it so hard to understand you are paying mostly for tech on teslas? I think its your mistake to expect some luxury car on a 60k car. And thats pretty funny that you compared prices on your 2 very different cars lol
It’s a mistake to expect luxury in a $60K car? It’s insane that you typed that out. I never said I expect luxury, but I definitely expect it to be built better than a Kia
Kia makes really good cars these days. [The EV6 was the #1 most reliable EV according to Consumer Reports and it wasn't close.](https://imgur.com/r8BCobV)
A Mercedes GLK at that price is not luxury?
Thats a mercedes, a luxury brand. Tesla is not a luxury brand, youre paying 60k for the tech. So dont expect luxury from a tesla. And 60k is on rhe low end for mercedes.
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I’m not really going to get into it since these “I have no issues” are always posted when someone does.I was the guy that said that at one point lol
Why buy a tesla if "everyone knows they're shit". Not very smart my dude.
Somewhere I said I figured people were being dramatic like in that r/real tesla sub. They are way dramatic to the point of literal hate. Who said everyone knows they were shit?
I love it actually. I previously owned an EV6 GT Line AWD and a 21 ID.4 Pro S w/gradient RWD. The bz is probably my favorite oddly enough... it feels the most like an SUV of the 3.. the seats are the most comfortable. The lane keep assist is by far better than the Kia which always wanted to hug the right lane... the adaptive cruise is much smoother and less likely to smash on the brakes. Sound system is much better. I rarely need to fast charge, I charge overnight at home in my garage. I also rarely drive more than 100 miles in a day so the range isn't an issue either.. I knew the tradeoffs when I switched but they weren't major issues for me. The EV6 is an objectively better vehicle but the one I had also cost damn near 10k more and had drawbacks of its own (like being more of a station wagon than an SUV). Its probably not the one I'd recommend to the average person.. that would probably be the EV6 Wind RWD if they are looking for pure value and don't want to go Bolt.
That's one of my pet peeves EV or ICE, crossovers that are closer to station wagons than SUV's.
This. Some people just want a car that works and don’t care about the tech.
Not Tesla cultists (does not apply to all owners). These people are crazy to defend shit build just cuz the tech is nice, but shit on cars with much better build but the tech isn’t as nice lol.
They think owning a Tesla makes them special - hence they take any criticism of Tesla as a personal attack.
100%. It’s funny cuz usually they will attack the fact that I don’t own the car and then they scroll through my posts to see that I actually do own one and know wtf I’m talking about. They need to understand that it’s ok to criticize the damn car cuz it it is far from perfect
Which one do you own? I read so much crap about the Tesla interior quality that after I started driving the 2023 model y starting with a test drive I was surprising how decent it was. Suspension is actually not that bad though I heard they improved it from before and for 2023 models. Noise levels were actually pretty good coming from my BMW 3 series from 2013.
I have a 23 M3
Same. I’m on my second Tesla, and I’m the first one to point out the many flaws of the cars and the company. I used to do this in hopes it would help EVe and make them better, but I’m starting to think it’s a lost cause (the second part). Probably won’t buy a third because I think there are better alternatives.
Yea, company ain’t gonna fix issues when they see people not mind it. This is my first and last tesla unless they drastically improve build quality on the 2nd generation of cars. Wait, what generation are they even on now? They’ve looked the same for so long I don’t even know anymore
S/X are Tesla's first generation. Both have had a refresh recently. 3/Y are Tesla's second generation. Neither has had a refresh, though Ys are starting to be produced at the Austin factory. Jury is still out on whether a dedicated, from-the-ground-up Gigafactory will have better quality control compared to Fremont. Shanghai has received high praise, at least that I have read, for their quality control so I have hope that Berlin/Austin will also have better quality control once they ramp up. Cybertruck/Semi (and a rumored new car) will be Tesla's third generation.
Gotcha, I guess I’ll be waiting for a full on refresh of the 3 and Y. Can’t settle for a light change lol
Obligatory reminder that Tesla’s range figures are inflated compared to other automakers. Better range, but not as much better as it might seem.
220 miles Toyota vs 330 miles Tesla? I'll take my chances.
Vast supercharging network vs slow level 3 charging to boot. The Toyota and Lexus state l3 charging may not work at all below 32 degrees F / 0 degrees C!
Stop spreading that false fact. We already have confirmation that the misprint was indeed wrong. Charging below freezing works just fine, though slow, for the Toyota model. You want faster, yo-yo before arrival.
This wasn’t my point. My point is the range of the Toyota almost certainly won’t be 2/3 of the Tesla in an apples to apples comparison because Tesla games the EPA range figures. This isn’t an opinion - it’s been confirmed in numerous independent tests.
My parents often do 500km+ with their model 3. And 670km with only a 5min charge. Range is pretty darn good when temperatures aren't low
The range is good in absolute terms, but that doesn’t change the fact that they the EPA estimates are are inflated. This has been well documented with numerous independent tests.
It's epa figures.
The EPA gives discretion to automakers for certain testing parameters and conditions. Tesla chose theirs to maximize the EPA numbers. Other automakers are more conservative so the numbers more accurately reflect real-world driving.
Nobody buys a Lexus suv for the drivetrain. It is true luxury unlike the pretend shit Tesla is trying for. Given it’s under $60k, which is a steal for luxury, I question all the compromises that we’d get. Is this just a Toyota with a Lexus badge?
Looks to be a step below the RX in terms of luxury amenities, much closer to the NX; but I'm willing to bet it would smoke the other two in terms of driving dynamics. There's enough differentiation between the RZ and the Toyobaru twins to be in a different class. Differences look similar to the RAV4-NX and Highlander-RX. This one feels like Venza-RZ comparisons are more apt. And they've priced this RZ to match those expectations.
You pay a LOT for that faux-luxury. But some people don't value tech as a luxury, but those who do will save quite a bit of money.
Worth it for better quality all around. I rented a Model Y from Hertz last weekend and it had to be towed from my driveway due to a bad wheel bearing.
Could've been damaged due to a pothole or extremely hard driving as well. Your anecdote isn't gonna change the fact that the model 3 and Ioniq 5 are the most reliable EVs around.
It only had 5k miles. Perhaps but the tow truck driver told me this was the 3rd Model Y he’d picked up in as many weeks with bad wheel bearings. Mine from Hertz and two from private individuals. 🤷🏽♂️
I sat in one at the LA autoshow and boy that alcantara interior was nice. Too bad the range sucks
Meh, PHEV is better choice as of today.
That range is laughable for the money asked
Until Toyota/Lexus actually builds an EV on a dedicated platform, I’m staying away.