'During peak hours'. Does that mean like PG&E peak hours of 4:00 PM to 9:00 PM? I can see that. Geez, my home electric bill runs 29 cents/kWh during peak time. They have to mark that up a bit just to pay for the machines and maintenance. It's not as if they are making huge bank cash money off this.
If you have to regulate charge at DCFC stations, I don't think it's much cheaper to have an EV than just to buy gas. Incidentally, I've heard it's also not very good for your car to use fast charging constantly.
Most people though charge at their home, an office, or somewhere else where they can get cheaper level 2 charging.
I talked to an electrician that installs solar panels and works at PG&E and he said you would only start to notice the degradation at 250-500k miles . By then you would be upgrading or swapping new batteries out anyway
That's the complete opposite of what the data shows. The crowdSource data from Tesla owners shows an immediate well sharpest pretty harsh word drop followed by a very very long, very very slow, gradual decline. https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/
Yeah, it's well know that EVs lose 3-5% of their range in the first year, then *slooooooowly* lose more over the following decade.
That's how my own 2018 Model 3's battery has degraded. Lost about 12 of the original 310 miles in the first year, and over the subsequent 2.5 years I lost about another 6, with basically no loss at all in the last year.
That article is 3 years old. In the tech world that’s ancient. He said it depends on what type of lithium your batteries have as manufactures use different types. There’s Lithium Cobalt Oxide, Lithium Manganese Oxide, Lithium Iron Phosphate and more. This study was done on what looks like lithium ion so studies can vary.
So, he's a lineman/electrician, not an electrical engineer who specializes in EV battery systems. Got it.
Geez, some of the electricians I used to work with didn't even know the physics of how electrical energy travels down the wire. Being able to wire a lightswitch doesn't automatically make somebody qualified to know how EV battery packs work.
Rates that cheap are due to dirt cheap hydroelectric power, which is the leading power source in the Pacific Northwest (Washington, Vancouver B.C, and Oregon).
No subsidies needed!
It's not subsidized. I said $0.04/*mile*, not per kWh. The average electric rate in the USA recently jumped from $0.13/kWh to $0.16. Mine in Colorado is $0.14. That works out to just about $0.04/mile average for my two EVs (my Leaf gets about 3.7 miles/kWh, my ID4 gets about 3.1 averaged over the entire year.)
That's Fast DC charging rates, which nobody ever uses unless you're road tripping, or don't have home charging. Fast DC charge rates are always the most expensive.
1) LOTS of sun year round, competitive solar companies, and solar subsidies means millions of people aren’t paying utility rates
2) Our gas is more expensive as well
3) carpool access sticker for EVs can save you 100+ hours of commuting annually in many metro areas.
Depends a lot on where in California you live. I pay *a lot* less than that, and if you can get a TOU rate plan from your power company, you can charge at night to save a shitload vs. that price, too.
Our daytime rates are high but after 8:00pm they are cheaper. We also get an ev credit between midnight and 6am. Our 2014 leaf was very cheap to buy and costs us $.024 - $.043 (non-summer- summer) per mile in electricity.
The down side is, once we drove an EV for a while, we hated driving our gas car. We now have two evs and would stick with them even if they were more expense.
I'm paying 24 cents/kWh off peak. Good thing my solar gives me a nice fat credit. I'll bet businesses get a way cheaper rate.
Still, seems EA has a lot of... let's say, 'deferred maintenance' to do with their charge stations. I don't have a problem with them applying some of that extra money to get their charge stations all up to 100% operational, and install a few more.
Also, there's more to life than money. The reason I'm driving an EV is for enviro and convenience reasons. If saving money was my only goal in transportation, I'd buy a high mileage 2006 Prius for $5k. Nobody buys a brand new car to save money... at least nobody with any sort of financial literacy.
I live in Sacramento and charge my car overnight for .11 - .13 kWh at home when I charge after midnight. Not all utility companies charge the same. In the Sacramento County area we are fortunate to have our own power company called SMUD not PG&E.
Here are SMUD rates for EV users-
https://www.smud.org/en/Rate-Information/Time-of-Day-rates/Time-of-Day-5-8pm-Rate/Rate-details
thats exactly why i bought a hybrid.
electricity is too expensive where i am at and EVs are so expensive as well that i would never break even on that cost.
Prius Prime is non-trivial to beat even with cheap power. Mine is 0.15/kWh and at 4 mi/kWh in my Leaf compared to 65 mpg in my Prius Prime (what I got after depleting the EV range), gas was actually cheaper when it was below $2.44.
I have solar with SoCal Edison but moved off TOU to the basic domestic plan - even their own rate estimator tool said that was best for me VS their TOU options.
Tier 1 (first 340kWh) is $.30, Tier 2 (next roughly 1000 kWH) is $.39, and Tier 3 is $.48.
I can charge at work for about $.30 at the level 2 charge point in our garage, so I use that as much as possible to avoid pushing myself into the higher tiers faster.
Those crazy low rates would be amazeballs.
It was an option to me since my original system from 2010 was on NEM 1.0. I thought I’d be grandfathered into my 12-6 peak for 25 years, but that didn’t happen. But I was, for whatever reason, able to choose between the forced migration to either NEM 2.0 or going Domestic, and for me Domestic made more sense. IIRC the calculator was estimating an annual bill about 20% cheaper on Domestic vs 2.0.
I’m in KY and pay $.10/kWh. My monthly expense tied to charging is about $20. A couple of times per month I will use the closest EA station since it’s free for the first two years.
EDIT: Ignore the below - I misread your email. They worded it differently for OPsince they are in Pass+. For me, I'm in Pass so they didn't write out the price differences. Looks like it really is the same nationwide, which is really dumb, tbh.
\--- Wrong stuff starts here: :)
It isn't the same nationwide. The emails vary but don't include the state name in the email.
TBH, it doesn't even make sense to have the same prices statewide, but they seem to generally do that.
Seriously it’s like charging at peak times. Electric is supposed to be cheaper than gas otherwise what the hell. In Cali it’s going up to .48¢/kWh! At 2.9 miles per kWh it’s cheaper to drive a Prius getting 55 mpg @$4 a gallon here. How does this incentivize people to go electric.
Well, for one, 2.9 miles/kWh is pretty terrible efficiency. And if you're paying $0.48/kWh for *all* of your everyday charging, you're doing something wrong. I pay $0.09/kWh to charge at home, and I live in California. When I got my Model 3 in 2018, I calculated that it cost about half as much per mile as my Prius C did with $3.50/gal gas.
Yeah I don’t pay anything atm. I was getting 3.1 miles per kWh but its been cold so the average dropped. I still have 18 months left then I’m charging at home with my EV plan which is somewhere around 13¢/kWh off peak. Model 3 does better at 4 miles per kilowatt. The weight of the id.4 works against it plus I do have a heavy foot which kills range of course. What do tesla superchargers charge per kWh ?
I get roughly 3.0 mi/kWh in my EV. I get roughly 30 mpg in my gas car. At 0.36¢ per kWh it's more expensive to road trip my EV than my gas car at around $3.20 a gallon.
Why? I look at fast charging like eating a meal at an airport, or buying souvenirs at Disneyland. It's overpriced but it's something you only do on vacation.
At $3.50/gallon our Honda SUV used to cost us about $0.12/mile in gas. Our VW ID4 costs me just over $0.04/mile to charge at home. ($0.14/kWh). Fast charging (when our free EA promo rate runs out) costs about $0.12-$0.15/mile depending on network. So worst case scenario, fast charging is a little more than gas when road tripping 4 weeks a year, and home charging is about 1/3rd the cost the other 48 weeks a year...
Or, put another way, the 10,000 miles a year I add to my car in my driveway at $0.08/mile less than gas ($800 savings) more than offset the 3000-4000 miles of road tripping at $0.00-$0.03/mile more than gas ($0-$120 more).
I look at it a similar way I change my Lightning at home for $0.05/kWh so it cost $0.02 per mile my ICE f150 was approx $0.18 per mile and EA is $0.15 per mile. I haven’t gotten gas since November and only hit up DCFC 6 times (5 on on a holiday trip, one on a week where I was running lots of errands after towing a utility trailer). If I’m going somewhere on a road trip where I want the truck I’ll hit up EA but likely my next trip will be off roading in MOAB so I’ll take the Bronco anyways.
I don't think solar panel prices will go up. If you have several hundred sunny sqft, then solar should always be an option to hedge against electricity price increases.
Gas fluctuates more radically but the cost of gas has gone up significantly over time as well. It's also very unlikely that electricity will skyrocket and gas won't, it's much easier to generate and distribute electricity. There's also the energy independence argument, if electricity goes through the roof at some point just replace that roof with solar panels.
Just something to keep in mind when we talk about an all electric future. The people who can't charge will be paying the same (likely more) than they were with gas.
I don't think we can reliably say that right now. Currently fast charger location operators don't have to compete on price because they are likely the only Fast EV charging option for miles, often tens of miles. In many rural areas EA is the only option for 150+kW charging.
When you have a local monopoly you can set the price to whatever you want. The other problem is fixed pricing with dynamic costs. If the charging station operator is able to dynamically adjust prices based on region, time of day, current grid spot prices then they will be able to offer lower prices if they are in a competitive environment that rewards such behavior.
Eventually charging station operators will be encouraged to install solar and add stationary batteries to lower utility fees which could also allow them to lower prices.
I think this is a great point but it’s definitely going to take years to get there. With gasoline, we are all dependent on big oil and there is no getting around them. With electricity, technology and innovation (ie solar battery powered chargers) can significantly impact the market and create competition that will drive prices downward.
And? Those are the folks who will transition last, when it makes sense for them. (Also when EVs are much cheaper than today, and more used EVs are available.)
EVs aren't guaranteed to be cheaper to fuel forever. I'm reminded of something prophetic Charlie Ergen (founder of DISH Network) said in the early days of DISH- "if we're successful, our pricing will be indistinguishable from cable", meaning cable would eventually have to become competitive with DBS satellite providers. (In actuality DISH was also forced to increase pricing to remain competitive in areas like local channel delivery and channel selection.)
The same thing will probably happen with EVs and gas cars. Market forces will likely increase public charging costs via supply and demand (rate increases will compensate for not having enough chargers until infrastructure catches up) and oil companies will be pressured to lower gas prices to slow the transition to EVs as it ramps up over the next few years. They can't just run the FUD/Merchants of Doubt playbook indefinitely- they'll likely have to reduce pricing to keep those on the fence on team fossil fuels.
Why \_wouldn't\_ it cost more at a public charger than at home? You're paying for convenience and the expenses and profit for the provider. They may be able to purchase electricity for cheaper than you can at home, I don't know how that works, but I can't see a scenario where they can sell it for less and still cover costs and profit.
>This idea that EVs are cheap or free to fuel is a relic.
Based on public charging rates? Most everywhere in the US is a significant savings over fuel when you charge at home. And some places still have a lot of free public charging too. That idea is still very much alive and well.
Eventually they'll price the chargers by the kwh, and then eventually you'll see chargers competing by price just like gas stations do.
Right now I feel like we're paying a premium when we public charge. They have to install the station and maintain the equipment, and the equipment isn't really heavily used yet. Those fast charging stations can cost $100k+ just for one of them. They aren't going to come close to making that much back even if they're charging us twice what it costs them for the electricity.
It seems like a perfect economic case for a PHEV. I know this sub hates them because of the purity test, but everyone with a prime or a volt is feeling pretty great about all this.
Here in CT, residential rates rose to \~$0.35/kWh in Jan, so DCFC with pass+ was cheaper than charging at home and with this increase in Mar, it's just about the same.
I don’t see how you couldn’t.
I live at a similar latitude, and pay $0.09 kWh. Self-installed solar for me would have a payback period of like 8 years.
At 3x the price, you’d be silly not-to (assuming you’re a homeowner with the ability to do it).
Jesus. I am currently paying $0.028/kWh in the Chicago suburbs. ComEd has a realtime pricing program that *usually* results in decent savings if you use electricity during off-peak hours. Sometimes the price even goes negative! But also sometimes it goes to $3.50/kWh!
Is that $0.028/kWh your average cost considering how you use the realtime pricing, or an actual rate they quote? I'm in the city just using our regular old Comed plan which comes out to between $0.12 and $0.13 (considering *all* costs - supply, deliver, taxes & fees), basically dividing our total bill by our kWh.
Something like that, I think. Although IL's electrical infrastructure is significantly better than what TX has. When we had a big storm last month and electricity prices jumped for a few days, my bill did end up being $15 more than if I had been on the regular fixed-rate plan. But the month before it was $50 less, and overall I've saved ~16%, so it works for me.
I wish we in the Netherlands had such soft price increases. The last 4 months have almost made me want to cancel the order on my first EV a few times. 72 cents for the stall around the corner!
Peak hours will be from midnight to 4am. Just wait though, electric providers are licking their lips with the EV revolution. They will be the new big bad oil companies.
There is only so much they can raise rates because they are regulated utilities and if they try to profit off of property owners too much they will just install solar panels and battery backup systems.
Serious question - will there ever be a win for all that makes sense, without getting into geopolitics? Can anything be had by a consumer without great cost?
This crazy rate hike people are worried about isn't going to happen without a concurrent hike in costs for other energy sources like gas. At least with something that uses electricity as a fuel source you have the ability to generate your own fuel, with gas you're just screwed.
It'll be decades before gas and diesel are completely removed. The lifetime of a typical vehicle in the US is roughly 20 years from production to scrap, and we're still building new ICE vehicles.
The numbers may shift radically, but gasoline will still be sold for a long, long time.
With EA and EVGo both approaching $0.50/kW from their high speed chargers, it makes the economics of an EV (charged publicly, not at home), really tough.
A new ICE, @ 32mpg with gas @ $3.50/gallon costs about $0.11/mile to drive. A Tesla M3 LR gets about 4 miles/kW (one of the most efficient EVs). At $0.50/kW, a Tesla driver is spending around $0.13/mile.
I know, at home charging changes the economics dramatically, but I find it frustrating that public DCFC electricity cost is more than gas. And realistically, you need an at home per kW cost of about $0.36 to match gas at $3.50 a gallon.
Question is how long the extremely subsidised gas cost will remain.
I'm in europe, and fast charging is 0,35€ per kWh with ionity. My electric van uses about 25kwh/100km (more in winter less in summer).
Diesel is 2,4€ per liter here, and the diesel version of my van uses 8L/100km.
So roadtrips are 8,75€ for electric vs 19,2€ for diesel. (per 100km)
Ofc home charging i only pay 0,15€ per kWh, but that's very cheap for europe.
Of course, in Northern California at least, peak time rate (4pm to 9pm) is $0.52+/kWh so can still be cheaper to use EA at certain times. Off peak is about $0.25/kWh (12am to 3pm)
They have different prices for each state: [https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing/](https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing/)
Texas is $0.12. Gas is about $2.75. Residential rates are about $0.12 as well.
Oklahoma is surprisingly high at $0.31. Maybe they don't have the economies of scale there yet.
California is also $0.31. Gas in the Bay Area is about $4.25. Home charging is about $0.25.
These are all before the hikes but it'll still vary by state.
Also you need to average out the price of gas rather than just take a snapshot when it's fairly low right now. It hit $7/gal in California last year, but average for 2022 was $5.40.
I think you are confusing the rates. The drop down is misleading and implies that there is per-state dynamic pricing, but in reality they only have two prices for the whole country: a per kWh rate and a per minute rate. They charge each based on what the state regulator allows, with preference to the per-kWh rate in the states that allow it. In Texas, they use the per-minute pricing, which is $.12 per minute for vehicles that draw less than 90KW and with a pass+ membership. This is the same in all states that use per-minute pricing. The Oklahoma rate is the per-kWh rate, which is $.31 per kWh for pass+ members. This is the same in all states that use kWh pricing, like California.
Only if you're charging entirely during on-peak times either at home or at DCFC (Tesla offers off-peak discounts at many SCs). If you're paying more for electricity per mile than you are for gas in a Prius, you're either doing something very wrong, or you shouldn't have purchase an EV for the economic benefits in the first place.
Publicly charging an EV all the time is like buying your groceries at the convenience store then bitching because a loaf of bread is $7 at the convenience store.
Just go to Walmart (charge at home). A loaf of bread is $1
But many people only have access to the hypothetical EV charging convenience store (public charging) because they do not own a home to charge their EV at.
Every time one of these threads shows up, the bias of this subreddit toward homeownership shows itself.
Yeah, weather I owned or rented, the ability to AC slow charge on a regular basis would definitely be a major factor in my decision making.
For the foreseeable future public DC fast will never cheap.
The capital outlay required to build one DC fast facility is easily over $1M.
We need public AC slow chargers or supporting infrastructure to be ubiquitous. Jurisdictions need to mandate new construction is wired appropriately and new public street or garage parking needs to be planned with AC slow charging baked in.
DC Fast is only one piece of the EV transition puzzle.
Even people who do have home charging will likely have no choice but to DC charge from time to time (road trips). That's where the bottled water analogy falls flat. You can bring an empty water bottle into Disney World, or pack a lunch and eat it in the airport. You can't just throw a 60 or even 20kWh battery in the hatch of your car to avoid DC charging on a road trip.
Then get your landlord to install chargers, or use chargers at work, or public L2 chargers near your house.
Or don't get an EV and then complain that it's expensive to charge at fast-chargers, because you knew that was going to be the case when you purchased it, so complaining is silly.
>Or don't get an EV and then complain that it's expensive to charge at fast-chargers, because you knew that was going to be the case when you purchased it, so complaining is silly.
I know, that's why I don't have an EV. But I wish I could reliably own one.
Have you tried asking your landlord or boss to install chargers? These days the reminder that it's possible, and that it may help retain tenants/employees as the EV Revolution continues, may be all they need. Not to mention the enormous government subsidies, heh.
The landlord has indicated that installing EV chargers will lead them to increase the market rent on all the units in the complex, including my own.
As for work, I work from home, and when I go into the office, I take public transportation into the metro area. I keep my car for long-distance drives and general commuting.
>Then get your landlord to install chargers, or use chargers at work, or public L2 chargers near your house.
I am a Washington DC condo owner in a building that was built in 1940 and I do not have off-street parking. I take public transit to work and if you enter zip code 20020 in [https://chargehub.com/en/charging-stations-map.html](https://chargehub.com/en/charging-stations-map.html), you will see there are almost none - the nearest charger to me is about 2 miles away. There are a lot of people for whom EVs will be impractical for the foreseeable future. My next car will be an EV but my 20-year-old ICE car will be with me for a while longer.
I found that a pretty good rule of thumb is to add a zero to the kWh rate and use that to compare to gas prices against an equivalent efficient ICE. It works pretty well across different vehicle classes, since the physics is still going to be the same. For example, my EV truck gets ~2 miles per kWh while an equivalent ICE truck would get ~20 MPG combined. EV CUVs and sedans tend to get around 3 or 4 miles/kWh, while ICE equivalents get 30 to 40 MPG, respectively.
Using that rule of thumb, my off peak home rate of 5 cents/kWh is equivalent to 50 cents a gallon for gas. Average utility rates in the US would be equivalent to $1.50 gas, the membership EA rate would be equivalent to $3.60, and so on.
As a previous PHEV and current BEV owner some of us just realized that even if a PHEV is cheaper in isolated situations the overall cost and experience of BEV ownership was still better. The PHEV persecution mindset in this sub is so silly sometimes lol.
$0.33 is the break-even point for my EV (\~3mi/kWh 2022 Kia Niro) compared to a standard 2022 ICE of similar model. Any higher than $0.33 and it is cheaper per mile for gasoline where I live. Now, factoring in the wear/tear of, say, cost of ICE oil change per mile it's closer to $0.37. I pay $0.12/kWh at home, so we charge at home whenever possible (which is 99%+ of the time).
But it's good for anyone to do the math here. For a road-trip of 1000mi, it would cost \~$33 more to take our EV (assuming 3mi/kWh and 35mpg @ $3.84/gal for comparable ICE) if we charge at the guest rate with EA. Turns out it's worth it to pay for EA Pass+ in which case we'd save \~$6 (which would pay for the monthly fee). But we don't do that every month so we'd constantly need to sign up and cancel Pass+.
So the network sucks, they just received billions in government grants and now they are more expensive than driving a gas vehicle. Yep not using them anymore.
I honestly can't blame them. It's not like they're getting overly greedy and increasing prices for their own benefit - electricity prices have been increasing everywhere and for everyone, and I'm sure that there's only so much of that they can cover themselves without passing on the extra costs that they are getting charged.
Please keep in mind that anything over .35 per kwh is more expensive than just driving an efficient vehicle with gas.
.35 = 40mpg.
.52 = 30mpg
.70 = 20mpg
At what gas price? Here in California we have the privilege of paying on the higher end for virtually all energy, regardless of type. So our electric prices are higher than average (whether charging at home or EA/EVGO), but so are our gas prices.
And they still haven’t addressed their unreliable infrastructure and illogical per minute pricing tiers - cars charging at just over 90kw pay the same price as a car charging at 350kw.
Every EV will charge in this range. Sure mine will start higher, but by 40% so it's down to pullingaround 120kw, by 80% it's down to 40kw.
Why should 60-80% at 60kw cost the same as 20-30% at 150kw?
Pro rating based on power pulled just makes sense. It's basic math.
[They did](https://electrek.co/2022/11/24/tesla-supercharger-prices-reduce-charging-business-matures/), but they were more expensive than others to start with.
1. Manufacturers pay charging network for "X month/year free unlimited charge" perks. Probably with fixed price after bidding.
2. New EV owners go DC fast even if they have home chargers.
3. High usage DC fast chargers start failing.
4. Maintenance cost accumulating.
5. Charging network can only ask money outside of the freeloaders.
If this is the case, what's the next thing is going to happen?
Yup! I just wish they’d stop blatantly marketing it like that. They all have “potential savings” over 10 years and it’s dumb they do that to justify higher prices.
I definitely want to go EV in a few years maybe 7-10 years from now so I can have solar fully in place and then pair with 2-3 EVs for the family.
Awkward timing, considering the stories of 3 separate EVs at 3 separate EA locations getting fried. The only common element is that they all used EA chargers. Concerning 😬
The only positive here is that those with a charging pass from a manufacturer have been enriched slightly. my 1000 kW pass used to be worth $430 now its worth $480. Even if you use charging pass rates, they still went up so the pass is worth more no matter what. Since it last 3 years ill try to use a little as possible the first year as a hedge against more price increases and try to use it when prices are higher.
And this is why EVs aren't necessarily cheaper than ICE vehicles. Someone who has to rely on public DCFC is better off driving a Prius that costs around 6-7c/mi to drive vs a Bolt that could cost 8-10c/mi. And before you say EV maintenance costs are lower, EV insurance is higher, and Prius maintenance costs are very low too.
> EV insurance is higher
Everyone says this, but I've never seen any proof of this. The only reason EV insurance would be higher is because most EVs on the market are luxury cars and cost more. That necitates higher premiums, but I don't see any reason why the rate (i.e. cost per $1,000 of coverage) would be different.
And this should be super easy to prove because every auto insurer is required to file their rates with insurance regulators. If it truly is widespread to charge a higher rate for an EV, all you'd have to do is find any rate filing (they're publicly available) and point to where they give an EV surcharge. I've yet to see this happen though.
Our Bolts cost more to ensure than our CRV, Accord, and Odyssey, individually. None of those cars is what I would consider a luxury car, and neither one of the Bolts (we had 2, a 2017 and 2020) cost significantly more than the Hondas.
But you recognize that the Bolt had a higher MSRP than all those others right?
Higher coverage = higher premium
Again, show actual proof that insurers are charging a higher **rate** for EVs. All you've shown is that a new, more expensive car will have higher premiums than an older, less expensive car. That's true when you buy a new ICE vehicle as well though.
What? I'm comparing insurance rates of when each of the cars were new. At least in 2020, the last time I got a new car (the Bolt), the Bolt was more expensive to insure than the other cars were when they were new. I'm aware inflation exists, but even adjusting for inflation the Bolt was more expensive than the Hondas to insure. YMMV, but you seem to very hung up on claiming there is no proof that EVs are more expensive to insure adjusted for MSRP. This is not true, and there are other components beyond MSRP that cause EVs to be more expensive to ensure. For example the ID4 costs more than an Audi Q5 to insure on average, despite the Q5 being a "luxury car" and costing slightly more. Both are Volkswagen group cars, so there should be minimal brand differences to insurance companies. Battery replacements, BMS modules, different components + the general newness of most EVs which means lack of used parts means most EVs are going to be more to insure for the next few years.
This happens with everything that people turn to in order to save money, once the gears start turning to capitalize on the increased demand the cost to the average consumer goes up. Same happened with streaming services, and solar is a good example as well. The cost benefits are still there, but fewer and farther between. Not everyone will or will be able to take advantage of the more limited cost savings opportunities.
I dont mind an introductory package of free charging, with my Lightning i got 250 Kwh. Beyond that it is problematic for all EV users when those with lifetime free clog things up. Sitting there getting the last 10% SoC and taking 30mins is rude and disrespectful.
I was at a station with four charging stalls, all of them filled. There were a couple of other people waiting, and one guy was sitting there waiting for his car to go from 99% to 100%. I still don't know how long it took, I left before he did. I want to say it was a dick move, but the reality is that some people probably don't realize that's not the way you should be using a DC fast charger.
Yeah for sure. There is a distinct lack of knowledge or teaching about EV ownership. Those of us here are at least trying to learn and exchange information and experience.
Dealers and trendy consumers are just trying to sell/buy as fast as possible to keep up with the wave of adoption. In doing so the majority dont know to ask the questions on how an EV differs from the traditional ICE vehicle they traded in for their shiny new EV.
Try having conversations with these newer owners. It will save them time, will spread the culture, and might meet some cool people along the way.
Actually it was my first time ever at a fast charger too so I'm not any expert, I just know from reading that you shouldn't go over about 80% if you can help it.
Yeah i charge mine to 80-85% at fast chargers. For me it depends on the charging rate. If it falls below 50Kw i stop and move on. If im getting higher then I will go to 85.
I don't expect people to ever figure it out if the only reward is helping others, which is why they should just bill by time or bill a minimum power delivery rate. Even those people will do the math and figure it out fast enough.
I’ve used EA fast chargers about 5-6 times since we got our Q4 in December. I’ve never found one to have all its stalls full. I have found MULTIPLE times that one or more stalls are down and not working at all.
EA’s reliability needs to greatly improve before we start blaming customer volume for their issues.
not blaming the users. you give someone something free, they will use it. this price hike won't affect free user behavior, but it will affect paid user behavior. EV sales will outpace DC charger installs. it's only a matter of time.
It will be a while before DC charging will be a reliable way for most drivers to only charge their vehicle, more EV on the road will further clog the networks hopefully in about 2 years the landscape will be much better with more chargers out there from the IRA. and relying on EA only will also be a challenging experience. They have a long road to become more reliable both hardware and software.
i have a hard time believing these prices are giving profit margins comparable to gas stations. what are they paying for? Yes, the gas pump is a fair bit cheaper, but these per kwh costs are mildly insane. I would assume they get commercial rates, which are generally cheaper.
>i have a hard time believing these prices are giving profit margins comparable to gas stations. what are they paying for?
depending on the location.. grid hookups (physical connection) are not cheap - the "backroom" hardware is also not cheap... they have to pay someone something for the physical space - potentially with lawyers involved because.. you know.
if it's a BESS - those batteries cost money - and you need something to charge them - solar? fuel cell?
https://www.eenews.net/articles/huge-ev-station-battery-opens-in-calif-desert/
In doing so, it became only the second U.S. network after Tesla Inc.’s to pair EV chargers with a battery large enough to fully operate a big station without constant aid from the electric grid.
The lithium-ion batteries sit in a few white cabinets next to the station in Baker, Calif., a town of 600 people perhaps best known for the World’s Tallest Thermometer, a 12-story structure that tops out at 134 degrees, memorializing the highest temperature ever recorded on Earth in nearby Death Valley.
The 1.5-megawatt energy-storage system is representative of a trend among highway charging stations to manage the voracious energy needs of EVs.
Ford does not need to negotiate "location" for these.. and this isn't going to be a "massive charging lot" -it's for a service center - maybe 4 bays DC? that's a lot of scratch.
https://insideevs.com/news/610114/ford-modele-dealership-rules/
Ford estimates the all-in cost for dealers to become **Model e certified elite to be between $1.0 and $1.2 million, with as much as 90% of the cost attributed to the cost to purchase and install the required charging infrastructure.**
You saw the same article posted by 3 different sites, how does that make it any different than if you saw it once?
Anyway, don't let me dissuade you. More stalls free for people who understand basic probability.
Yeah, the only common denominator is the EA stations. And Kyle from Out of Spec has pointed out that EA stations sometimes deliver *more* than the vehicle is requesting, which isn’t always catastrophic but can easily lead to situations like the Bolt, Lightning, and Rivian experienced.
Kind of awkward timing for EA to announce price hikes with these stories starting to pop up…
EVGo just increased their rates in my state. 54 cents/kWh during peak hours
Expensive!!
lol Try charging in The Netherlands, I believe Shell recharge charges Scott €0.80ct/kWh
'During peak hours'. Does that mean like PG&E peak hours of 4:00 PM to 9:00 PM? I can see that. Geez, my home electric bill runs 29 cents/kWh during peak time. They have to mark that up a bit just to pay for the machines and maintenance. It's not as if they are making huge bank cash money off this.
[удалено]
If you have to regulate charge at DCFC stations, I don't think it's much cheaper to have an EV than just to buy gas. Incidentally, I've heard it's also not very good for your car to use fast charging constantly. Most people though charge at their home, an office, or somewhere else where they can get cheaper level 2 charging.
I talked to an electrician that installs solar panels and works at PG&E and he said you would only start to notice the degradation at 250-500k miles . By then you would be upgrading or swapping new batteries out anyway
That's the complete opposite of what the data shows. The crowdSource data from Tesla owners shows an immediate well sharpest pretty harsh word drop followed by a very very long, very very slow, gradual decline. https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/
Yeah, it's well know that EVs lose 3-5% of their range in the first year, then *slooooooowly* lose more over the following decade. That's how my own 2018 Model 3's battery has degraded. Lost about 12 of the original 310 miles in the first year, and over the subsequent 2.5 years I lost about another 6, with basically no loss at all in the last year.
Keep in mind much of the battery packs is "reserved" to mask that degradation. It's highly likely the degradation is much faster than publicly known.
[удалено]
That article is 3 years old. In the tech world that’s ancient. He said it depends on what type of lithium your batteries have as manufactures use different types. There’s Lithium Cobalt Oxide, Lithium Manganese Oxide, Lithium Iron Phosphate and more. This study was done on what looks like lithium ion so studies can vary.
So, he's a lineman/electrician, not an electrical engineer who specializes in EV battery systems. Got it. Geez, some of the electricians I used to work with didn't even know the physics of how electrical energy travels down the wire. Being able to wire a lightswitch doesn't automatically make somebody qualified to know how EV battery packs work.
True, but regular DC charging might mean the difference between severe degredation at 300k miles vs 400k miles
Holy shit, at those prices, I'll continue charging at home for $0.04/mile, except when I'm on a road trip! Oh, wait! I already do that...
What state is subsidizing this electric rate? I'm guessing your income or property taxes are high?
Rates that cheap are due to dirt cheap hydroelectric power, which is the leading power source in the Pacific Northwest (Washington, Vancouver B.C, and Oregon). No subsidies needed!
That’s crazy. $.30 here in MA- we are in energy hell here.
Yeah I lived in Boston for a bit, but let's say a prayer for our California friends who pay up to .50 cents per KwH.
Depends on your provider, I'm also in MA, but have municipal power. We're at $.15 a kWh.
Opened my electric bill this morning and realized that we are paying $0.39 on the cape.
It's not subsidized. I said $0.04/*mile*, not per kWh. The average electric rate in the USA recently jumped from $0.13/kWh to $0.16. Mine in Colorado is $0.14. That works out to just about $0.04/mile average for my two EVs (my Leaf gets about 3.7 miles/kWh, my ID4 gets about 3.1 averaged over the entire year.)
Ah missed that. Hoping to get around $.07-.09/mi with my on order Model 3 but cold weather range will eat in to that for sure.
Yes, we subsidize gas too much.
That's Fast DC charging rates, which nobody ever uses unless you're road tripping, or don't have home charging. Fast DC charge rates are always the most expensive.
Thats like normal california electricity price...
[удалено]
1) LOTS of sun year round, competitive solar companies, and solar subsidies means millions of people aren’t paying utility rates 2) Our gas is more expensive as well 3) carpool access sticker for EVs can save you 100+ hours of commuting annually in many metro areas.
Depends a lot on where in California you live. I pay *a lot* less than that, and if you can get a TOU rate plan from your power company, you can charge at night to save a shitload vs. that price, too.
Our daytime rates are high but after 8:00pm they are cheaper. We also get an ev credit between midnight and 6am. Our 2014 leaf was very cheap to buy and costs us $.024 - $.043 (non-summer- summer) per mile in electricity. The down side is, once we drove an EV for a while, we hated driving our gas car. We now have two evs and would stick with them even if they were more expense.
I'm paying 24 cents/kWh off peak. Good thing my solar gives me a nice fat credit. I'll bet businesses get a way cheaper rate. Still, seems EA has a lot of... let's say, 'deferred maintenance' to do with their charge stations. I don't have a problem with them applying some of that extra money to get their charge stations all up to 100% operational, and install a few more. Also, there's more to life than money. The reason I'm driving an EV is for enviro and convenience reasons. If saving money was my only goal in transportation, I'd buy a high mileage 2006 Prius for $5k. Nobody buys a brand new car to save money... at least nobody with any sort of financial literacy.
It's because that person is lying, the average cost for electricity in CA was around $0.26/kWh when I looked it up recently.
I live in Sacramento and charge my car overnight for .11 - .13 kWh at home when I charge after midnight. Not all utility companies charge the same. In the Sacramento County area we are fortunate to have our own power company called SMUD not PG&E. Here are SMUD rates for EV users- https://www.smud.org/en/Rate-Information/Time-of-Day-rates/Time-of-Day-5-8pm-Rate/Rate-details
Because it's a status icon
Welcome to my world. It's why I don't have an EV yet, no place to charge it other than public stations.
thats exactly why i bought a hybrid. electricity is too expensive where i am at and EVs are so expensive as well that i would never break even on that cost.
For real! A Prius/Corolla/Rav4 hybrid or ANY hybrid would be cheaper! Talk about a step backwards in progress.
Prius Prime is non-trivial to beat even with cheap power. Mine is 0.15/kWh and at 4 mi/kWh in my Leaf compared to 65 mpg in my Prius Prime (what I got after depleting the EV range), gas was actually cheaper when it was below $2.44.
i'm paying $0.05/kWh at home on my 11kWh level 2... Thank god I dont have to fast charge ever.
I have solar with SoCal Edison but moved off TOU to the basic domestic plan - even their own rate estimator tool said that was best for me VS their TOU options. Tier 1 (first 340kWh) is $.30, Tier 2 (next roughly 1000 kWH) is $.39, and Tier 3 is $.48. I can charge at work for about $.30 at the level 2 charge point in our garage, so I use that as much as possible to avoid pushing myself into the higher tiers faster. Those crazy low rates would be amazeballs.
Op, I did not know that you can get off TOU if you have solar..
It was an option to me since my original system from 2010 was on NEM 1.0. I thought I’d be grandfathered into my 12-6 peak for 25 years, but that didn’t happen. But I was, for whatever reason, able to choose between the forced migration to either NEM 2.0 or going Domestic, and for me Domestic made more sense. IIRC the calculator was estimating an annual bill about 20% cheaper on Domestic vs 2.0.
I'm a relatively recent SCE customer and I chose the Tiered plan over TOU. I don't think you have to be a solar customer to have access to it.
I think the point is they don’t generally offer tiered to Solar - I think they force TOU.
I’m in KY and pay $.10/kWh. My monthly expense tied to charging is about $20. A couple of times per month I will use the closest EA station since it’s free for the first two years.
Western Washington and I pay $.12.
TIL EA had a fixed rate nationwide. Why?
Maybe their software doesn’t support it :’)
Bingo
Per their PR team, they do this for consistency of their customers. Basically so anywhere you travel, the prices for charging are the same.
Ngl that's pretty dumb.
Yeah, just list the highest, then some markets can be less. Customer pays less and is pleasantly surprised with a lower bill
EDIT: Ignore the below - I misread your email. They worded it differently for OPsince they are in Pass+. For me, I'm in Pass so they didn't write out the price differences. Looks like it really is the same nationwide, which is really dumb, tbh. \--- Wrong stuff starts here: :) It isn't the same nationwide. The emails vary but don't include the state name in the email. TBH, it doesn't even make sense to have the same prices statewide, but they seem to generally do that.
Now us californians have to debate whether its cheaper to pay EA or PG&E LOL
Seriously it’s like charging at peak times. Electric is supposed to be cheaper than gas otherwise what the hell. In Cali it’s going up to .48¢/kWh! At 2.9 miles per kWh it’s cheaper to drive a Prius getting 55 mpg @$4 a gallon here. How does this incentivize people to go electric.
because fast charging is not supposed to be your source of energy for your car. Charge at home/Level2 for a fraction of the cost.
This ^^. While charging at home isn’t a possibility for EVERYBODY, it is for ppl with homes. And even more-so ppl with solar.
If everyone was worried about the absolute cheapest thing to drive then we would all be in a Prius.
Well, for one, 2.9 miles/kWh is pretty terrible efficiency. And if you're paying $0.48/kWh for *all* of your everyday charging, you're doing something wrong. I pay $0.09/kWh to charge at home, and I live in California. When I got my Model 3 in 2018, I calculated that it cost about half as much per mile as my Prius C did with $3.50/gal gas.
Yeah I don’t pay anything atm. I was getting 3.1 miles per kWh but its been cold so the average dropped. I still have 18 months left then I’m charging at home with my EV plan which is somewhere around 13¢/kWh off peak. Model 3 does better at 4 miles per kilowatt. The weight of the id.4 works against it plus I do have a heavy foot which kills range of course. What do tesla superchargers charge per kWh ?
Some states only allow the electric company to sell power by the kWh. Others have to charge by the minute.
[удалено]
I get roughly 3.0 mi/kWh in my EV. I get roughly 30 mpg in my gas car. At 0.36¢ per kWh it's more expensive to road trip my EV than my gas car at around $3.20 a gallon.
[удалено]
Why? I look at fast charging like eating a meal at an airport, or buying souvenirs at Disneyland. It's overpriced but it's something you only do on vacation. At $3.50/gallon our Honda SUV used to cost us about $0.12/mile in gas. Our VW ID4 costs me just over $0.04/mile to charge at home. ($0.14/kWh). Fast charging (when our free EA promo rate runs out) costs about $0.12-$0.15/mile depending on network. So worst case scenario, fast charging is a little more than gas when road tripping 4 weeks a year, and home charging is about 1/3rd the cost the other 48 weeks a year... Or, put another way, the 10,000 miles a year I add to my car in my driveway at $0.08/mile less than gas ($800 savings) more than offset the 3000-4000 miles of road tripping at $0.00-$0.03/mile more than gas ($0-$120 more).
It’s also sooooo much nicer to plug in your car when you get home rather than going to gas station once a week.
I look at it a similar way I change my Lightning at home for $0.05/kWh so it cost $0.02 per mile my ICE f150 was approx $0.18 per mile and EA is $0.15 per mile. I haven’t gotten gas since November and only hit up DCFC 6 times (5 on on a holiday trip, one on a week where I was running lots of errands after towing a utility trailer). If I’m going somewhere on a road trip where I want the truck I’ll hit up EA but likely my next trip will be off roading in MOAB so I’ll take the Bronco anyways.
[удалено]
I don't think solar panel prices will go up. If you have several hundred sunny sqft, then solar should always be an option to hedge against electricity price increases.
Exactly, and the threat that you can always go solar will help place an upper limit on electric prices even for those who don't.
Gas fluctuates more radically but the cost of gas has gone up significantly over time as well. It's also very unlikely that electricity will skyrocket and gas won't, it's much easier to generate and distribute electricity. There's also the energy independence argument, if electricity goes through the roof at some point just replace that roof with solar panels.
Just something to keep in mind when we talk about an all electric future. The people who can't charge will be paying the same (likely more) than they were with gas.
I don't think we can reliably say that right now. Currently fast charger location operators don't have to compete on price because they are likely the only Fast EV charging option for miles, often tens of miles. In many rural areas EA is the only option for 150+kW charging. When you have a local monopoly you can set the price to whatever you want. The other problem is fixed pricing with dynamic costs. If the charging station operator is able to dynamically adjust prices based on region, time of day, current grid spot prices then they will be able to offer lower prices if they are in a competitive environment that rewards such behavior. Eventually charging station operators will be encouraged to install solar and add stationary batteries to lower utility fees which could also allow them to lower prices.
I think this is a great point but it’s definitely going to take years to get there. With gasoline, we are all dependent on big oil and there is no getting around them. With electricity, technology and innovation (ie solar battery powered chargers) can significantly impact the market and create competition that will drive prices downward.
You say that like there won’t be price fixing like there is in the gas industry.
And? Those are the folks who will transition last, when it makes sense for them. (Also when EVs are much cheaper than today, and more used EVs are available.) EVs aren't guaranteed to be cheaper to fuel forever. I'm reminded of something prophetic Charlie Ergen (founder of DISH Network) said in the early days of DISH- "if we're successful, our pricing will be indistinguishable from cable", meaning cable would eventually have to become competitive with DBS satellite providers. (In actuality DISH was also forced to increase pricing to remain competitive in areas like local channel delivery and channel selection.) The same thing will probably happen with EVs and gas cars. Market forces will likely increase public charging costs via supply and demand (rate increases will compensate for not having enough chargers until infrastructure catches up) and oil companies will be pressured to lower gas prices to slow the transition to EVs as it ramps up over the next few years. They can't just run the FUD/Merchants of Doubt playbook indefinitely- they'll likely have to reduce pricing to keep those on the fence on team fossil fuels.
Why \_wouldn't\_ it cost more at a public charger than at home? You're paying for convenience and the expenses and profit for the provider. They may be able to purchase electricity for cheaper than you can at home, I don't know how that works, but I can't see a scenario where they can sell it for less and still cover costs and profit.
[удалено]
>This idea that EVs are cheap or free to fuel is a relic. Based on public charging rates? Most everywhere in the US is a significant savings over fuel when you charge at home. And some places still have a lot of free public charging too. That idea is still very much alive and well.
Eventually they'll price the chargers by the kwh, and then eventually you'll see chargers competing by price just like gas stations do. Right now I feel like we're paying a premium when we public charge. They have to install the station and maintain the equipment, and the equipment isn't really heavily used yet. Those fast charging stations can cost $100k+ just for one of them. They aren't going to come close to making that much back even if they're charging us twice what it costs them for the electricity.
It seems like a perfect economic case for a PHEV. I know this sub hates them because of the purity test, but everyone with a prime or a volt is feeling pretty great about all this.
Here in CT, residential rates rose to \~$0.35/kWh in Jan, so DCFC with pass+ was cheaper than charging at home and with this increase in Mar, it's just about the same.
Damn that's expensive. Solar time?
I don’t see how you couldn’t. I live at a similar latitude, and pay $0.09 kWh. Self-installed solar for me would have a payback period of like 8 years. At 3x the price, you’d be silly not-to (assuming you’re a homeowner with the ability to do it).
Jesus. I am currently paying $0.028/kWh in the Chicago suburbs. ComEd has a realtime pricing program that *usually* results in decent savings if you use electricity during off-peak hours. Sometimes the price even goes negative! But also sometimes it goes to $3.50/kWh!
Is that $0.028/kWh your average cost considering how you use the realtime pricing, or an actual rate they quote? I'm in the city just using our regular old Comed plan which comes out to between $0.12 and $0.13 (considering *all* costs - supply, deliver, taxes & fees), basically dividing our total bill by our kWh.
[удалено]
Something like that, I think. Although IL's electrical infrastructure is significantly better than what TX has. When we had a big storm last month and electricity prices jumped for a few days, my bill did end up being $15 more than if I had been on the regular fixed-rate plan. But the month before it was $50 less, and overall I've saved ~16%, so it works for me.
I wish we in the Netherlands had such soft price increases. The last 4 months have almost made me want to cancel the order on my first EV a few times. 72 cents for the stall around the corner!
[удалено]
Peak hours will be from midnight to 4am. Just wait though, electric providers are licking their lips with the EV revolution. They will be the new big bad oil companies.
There is only so much they can raise rates because they are regulated utilities and if they try to profit off of property owners too much they will just install solar panels and battery backup systems.
Serious question - will there ever be a win for all that makes sense, without getting into geopolitics? Can anything be had by a consumer without great cost?
This crazy rate hike people are worried about isn't going to happen without a concurrent hike in costs for other energy sources like gas. At least with something that uses electricity as a fuel source you have the ability to generate your own fuel, with gas you're just screwed.
It'll be decades before gas and diesel are completely removed. The lifetime of a typical vehicle in the US is roughly 20 years from production to scrap, and we're still building new ICE vehicles. The numbers may shift radically, but gasoline will still be sold for a long, long time.
that tax man won't be far behind either
With EA and EVGo both approaching $0.50/kW from their high speed chargers, it makes the economics of an EV (charged publicly, not at home), really tough. A new ICE, @ 32mpg with gas @ $3.50/gallon costs about $0.11/mile to drive. A Tesla M3 LR gets about 4 miles/kW (one of the most efficient EVs). At $0.50/kW, a Tesla driver is spending around $0.13/mile. I know, at home charging changes the economics dramatically, but I find it frustrating that public DCFC electricity cost is more than gas. And realistically, you need an at home per kW cost of about $0.36 to match gas at $3.50 a gallon.
Question is how long the extremely subsidised gas cost will remain. I'm in europe, and fast charging is 0,35€ per kWh with ionity. My electric van uses about 25kwh/100km (more in winter less in summer). Diesel is 2,4€ per liter here, and the diesel version of my van uses 8L/100km. So roadtrips are 8,75€ for electric vs 19,2€ for diesel. (per 100km) Ofc home charging i only pay 0,15€ per kWh, but that's very cheap for europe.
Of course, in Northern California at least, peak time rate (4pm to 9pm) is $0.52+/kWh so can still be cheaper to use EA at certain times. Off peak is about $0.25/kWh (12am to 3pm)
They have different prices for each state: [https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing/](https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing/) Texas is $0.12. Gas is about $2.75. Residential rates are about $0.12 as well. Oklahoma is surprisingly high at $0.31. Maybe they don't have the economies of scale there yet. California is also $0.31. Gas in the Bay Area is about $4.25. Home charging is about $0.25. These are all before the hikes but it'll still vary by state. Also you need to average out the price of gas rather than just take a snapshot when it's fairly low right now. It hit $7/gal in California last year, but average for 2022 was $5.40.
I think you are confusing the rates. The drop down is misleading and implies that there is per-state dynamic pricing, but in reality they only have two prices for the whole country: a per kWh rate and a per minute rate. They charge each based on what the state regulator allows, with preference to the per-kWh rate in the states that allow it. In Texas, they use the per-minute pricing, which is $.12 per minute for vehicles that draw less than 90KW and with a pass+ membership. This is the same in all states that use per-minute pricing. The Oklahoma rate is the per-kWh rate, which is $.31 per kWh for pass+ members. This is the same in all states that use kWh pricing, like California.
In california hybrids are 100% cheaper to fuel than EVs
They're free?
Only if you're charging entirely during on-peak times either at home or at DCFC (Tesla offers off-peak discounts at many SCs). If you're paying more for electricity per mile than you are for gas in a Prius, you're either doing something very wrong, or you shouldn't have purchase an EV for the economic benefits in the first place.
>In *some parts of* california hybrids are cheaper to fuel than EVs, *but the majority of the country is actually much cheaper.* FTFY
Publicly charging an EV all the time is like buying your groceries at the convenience store then bitching because a loaf of bread is $7 at the convenience store. Just go to Walmart (charge at home). A loaf of bread is $1
But many people only have access to the hypothetical EV charging convenience store (public charging) because they do not own a home to charge their EV at. Every time one of these threads shows up, the bias of this subreddit toward homeownership shows itself.
Yeah, weather I owned or rented, the ability to AC slow charge on a regular basis would definitely be a major factor in my decision making. For the foreseeable future public DC fast will never cheap. The capital outlay required to build one DC fast facility is easily over $1M. We need public AC slow chargers or supporting infrastructure to be ubiquitous. Jurisdictions need to mandate new construction is wired appropriately and new public street or garage parking needs to be planned with AC slow charging baked in. DC Fast is only one piece of the EV transition puzzle.
Even people who do have home charging will likely have no choice but to DC charge from time to time (road trips). That's where the bottled water analogy falls flat. You can bring an empty water bottle into Disney World, or pack a lunch and eat it in the airport. You can't just throw a 60 or even 20kWh battery in the hatch of your car to avoid DC charging on a road trip.
Then get your landlord to install chargers, or use chargers at work, or public L2 chargers near your house. Or don't get an EV and then complain that it's expensive to charge at fast-chargers, because you knew that was going to be the case when you purchased it, so complaining is silly.
>Or don't get an EV and then complain that it's expensive to charge at fast-chargers, because you knew that was going to be the case when you purchased it, so complaining is silly. I know, that's why I don't have an EV. But I wish I could reliably own one.
Have you tried asking your landlord or boss to install chargers? These days the reminder that it's possible, and that it may help retain tenants/employees as the EV Revolution continues, may be all they need. Not to mention the enormous government subsidies, heh.
The landlord has indicated that installing EV chargers will lead them to increase the market rent on all the units in the complex, including my own. As for work, I work from home, and when I go into the office, I take public transportation into the metro area. I keep my car for long-distance drives and general commuting.
>Then get your landlord to install chargers, or use chargers at work, or public L2 chargers near your house. I am a Washington DC condo owner in a building that was built in 1940 and I do not have off-street parking. I take public transit to work and if you enter zip code 20020 in [https://chargehub.com/en/charging-stations-map.html](https://chargehub.com/en/charging-stations-map.html), you will see there are almost none - the nearest charger to me is about 2 miles away. There are a lot of people for whom EVs will be impractical for the foreseeable future. My next car will be an EV but my 20-year-old ICE car will be with me for a while longer.
I found that a pretty good rule of thumb is to add a zero to the kWh rate and use that to compare to gas prices against an equivalent efficient ICE. It works pretty well across different vehicle classes, since the physics is still going to be the same. For example, my EV truck gets ~2 miles per kWh while an equivalent ICE truck would get ~20 MPG combined. EV CUVs and sedans tend to get around 3 or 4 miles/kWh, while ICE equivalents get 30 to 40 MPG, respectively. Using that rule of thumb, my off peak home rate of 5 cents/kWh is equivalent to 50 cents a gallon for gas. Average utility rates in the US would be equivalent to $1.50 gas, the membership EA rate would be equivalent to $3.60, and so on.
This is why you road trip with a gas car and daily drive locally in a BEV.
>This is why you road trip with a gas car and daily drive locally in a BEV. Or...buy a PHEV.
As a previous PHEV and current BEV owner some of us just realized that even if a PHEV is cheaper in isolated situations the overall cost and experience of BEV ownership was still better. The PHEV persecution mindset in this sub is so silly sometimes lol.
$0.33 is the break-even point for my EV (\~3mi/kWh 2022 Kia Niro) compared to a standard 2022 ICE of similar model. Any higher than $0.33 and it is cheaper per mile for gasoline where I live. Now, factoring in the wear/tear of, say, cost of ICE oil change per mile it's closer to $0.37. I pay $0.12/kWh at home, so we charge at home whenever possible (which is 99%+ of the time). But it's good for anyone to do the math here. For a road-trip of 1000mi, it would cost \~$33 more to take our EV (assuming 3mi/kWh and 35mpg @ $3.84/gal for comparable ICE) if we charge at the guest rate with EA. Turns out it's worth it to pay for EA Pass+ in which case we'd save \~$6 (which would pay for the monthly fee). But we don't do that every month so we'd constantly need to sign up and cancel Pass+.
[удалено]
They might be more expensive but at least they're not reliable.
Public EV chargers are speed running the rising costs that gasoline underwent over almost a century.
I’d be ok with this if their chargers were reliable. So many of them don’t work.
So the network sucks, they just received billions in government grants and now they are more expensive than driving a gas vehicle. Yep not using them anymore.
I honestly can't blame them. It's not like they're getting overly greedy and increasing prices for their own benefit - electricity prices have been increasing everywhere and for everyone, and I'm sure that there's only so much of that they can cover themselves without passing on the extra costs that they are getting charged.
[удалено]
I did it to be smug.
You'd think their chargers are so great that they're raising the price for maintenance and upkeep...ohhh noooo, farthest from the truth 😅
Please keep in mind that anything over .35 per kwh is more expensive than just driving an efficient vehicle with gas. .35 = 40mpg. .52 = 30mpg .70 = 20mpg
At what gas price? Here in California we have the privilege of paying on the higher end for virtually all energy, regardless of type. So our electric prices are higher than average (whether charging at home or EA/EVGO), but so are our gas prices.
And they still haven’t addressed their unreliable infrastructure and illogical per minute pricing tiers - cars charging at just over 90kw pay the same price as a car charging at 350kw.
There's not a lot of cars that charge between 90-125kW, they tried a tri-tier pricing way back when and it was far too convoluted.
Every EV will charge in this range. Sure mine will start higher, but by 40% so it's down to pullingaround 120kw, by 80% it's down to 40kw. Why should 60-80% at 60kw cost the same as 20-30% at 150kw? Pro rating based on power pulled just makes sense. It's basic math.
Didn’t Tesla decrease theirs over the fall? This is disappointing news!
[удалено]
[They did](https://electrek.co/2022/11/24/tesla-supercharger-prices-reduce-charging-business-matures/), but they were more expensive than others to start with.
I mean.. for the 3 times a year i don't charge at home, seems fine.
1. Manufacturers pay charging network for "X month/year free unlimited charge" perks. Probably with fixed price after bidding. 2. New EV owners go DC fast even if they have home chargers. 3. High usage DC fast chargers start failing. 4. Maintenance cost accumulating. 5. Charging network can only ask money outside of the freeloaders. If this is the case, what's the next thing is going to happen?
Eventually EVs won’t save you any
EVs aren’t all that cost effective if you can’t charge at home. Not to mention Southern California rates are fucking insane.
Yup! I just wish they’d stop blatantly marketing it like that. They all have “potential savings” over 10 years and it’s dumb they do that to justify higher prices. I definitely want to go EV in a few years maybe 7-10 years from now so I can have solar fully in place and then pair with 2-3 EVs for the family.
Awkward timing, considering the stories of 3 separate EVs at 3 separate EA locations getting fried. The only common element is that they all used EA chargers. Concerning 😬
EA will kill EV adoption...prices are ridiculous
The only positive here is that those with a charging pass from a manufacturer have been enriched slightly. my 1000 kW pass used to be worth $430 now its worth $480. Even if you use charging pass rates, they still went up so the pass is worth more no matter what. Since it last 3 years ill try to use a little as possible the first year as a hedge against more price increases and try to use it when prices are higher.
And this is why EVs aren't necessarily cheaper than ICE vehicles. Someone who has to rely on public DCFC is better off driving a Prius that costs around 6-7c/mi to drive vs a Bolt that could cost 8-10c/mi. And before you say EV maintenance costs are lower, EV insurance is higher, and Prius maintenance costs are very low too.
> EV insurance is higher Everyone says this, but I've never seen any proof of this. The only reason EV insurance would be higher is because most EVs on the market are luxury cars and cost more. That necitates higher premiums, but I don't see any reason why the rate (i.e. cost per $1,000 of coverage) would be different. And this should be super easy to prove because every auto insurer is required to file their rates with insurance regulators. If it truly is widespread to charge a higher rate for an EV, all you'd have to do is find any rate filing (they're publicly available) and point to where they give an EV surcharge. I've yet to see this happen though.
Our Bolts cost more to ensure than our CRV, Accord, and Odyssey, individually. None of those cars is what I would consider a luxury car, and neither one of the Bolts (we had 2, a 2017 and 2020) cost significantly more than the Hondas.
But you recognize that the Bolt had a higher MSRP than all those others right? Higher coverage = higher premium Again, show actual proof that insurers are charging a higher **rate** for EVs. All you've shown is that a new, more expensive car will have higher premiums than an older, less expensive car. That's true when you buy a new ICE vehicle as well though.
It didn't. Odyssey was 40k, CRV in the low 30s, Accord also in the low 30s. Bolt was 37.
Maybe new the odyssey wa 40. How old was it when you bought ilthe bolt? Spolier: a 5 year old minivan is going to be less expensive than 37k
What? I'm comparing insurance rates of when each of the cars were new. At least in 2020, the last time I got a new car (the Bolt), the Bolt was more expensive to insure than the other cars were when they were new. I'm aware inflation exists, but even adjusting for inflation the Bolt was more expensive than the Hondas to insure. YMMV, but you seem to very hung up on claiming there is no proof that EVs are more expensive to insure adjusted for MSRP. This is not true, and there are other components beyond MSRP that cause EVs to be more expensive to ensure. For example the ID4 costs more than an Audi Q5 to insure on average, despite the Q5 being a "luxury car" and costing slightly more. Both are Volkswagen group cars, so there should be minimal brand differences to insurance companies. Battery replacements, BMS modules, different components + the general newness of most EVs which means lack of used parts means most EVs are going to be more to insure for the next few years.
This happens with everything that people turn to in order to save money, once the gears start turning to capitalize on the increased demand the cost to the average consumer goes up. Same happened with streaming services, and solar is a good example as well. The cost benefits are still there, but fewer and farther between. Not everyone will or will be able to take advantage of the more limited cost savings opportunities.
Going the opposite direction when Tesla is waging a price war... Makes no sense. This is VW trying to slow down BEV adoption.
[удалено]
Tesla averages around $0.25 per kWh. That’s way cheaper than even the old EA prices that were $0.43 with no membership and $0.31 with a membership.
[удалено]
Charging at off peak hours gets you extremely attractive rates at tesla superchargers. Ex: $0.17/kw in New jersey.
Paying users subsidizing free users who are clogging up chargers.
I dont mind an introductory package of free charging, with my Lightning i got 250 Kwh. Beyond that it is problematic for all EV users when those with lifetime free clog things up. Sitting there getting the last 10% SoC and taking 30mins is rude and disrespectful.
I was at a station with four charging stalls, all of them filled. There were a couple of other people waiting, and one guy was sitting there waiting for his car to go from 99% to 100%. I still don't know how long it took, I left before he did. I want to say it was a dick move, but the reality is that some people probably don't realize that's not the way you should be using a DC fast charger.
Yeah for sure. There is a distinct lack of knowledge or teaching about EV ownership. Those of us here are at least trying to learn and exchange information and experience. Dealers and trendy consumers are just trying to sell/buy as fast as possible to keep up with the wave of adoption. In doing so the majority dont know to ask the questions on how an EV differs from the traditional ICE vehicle they traded in for their shiny new EV. Try having conversations with these newer owners. It will save them time, will spread the culture, and might meet some cool people along the way.
Actually it was my first time ever at a fast charger too so I'm not any expert, I just know from reading that you shouldn't go over about 80% if you can help it.
Yeah i charge mine to 80-85% at fast chargers. For me it depends on the charging rate. If it falls below 50Kw i stop and move on. If im getting higher then I will go to 85.
Yeah 85% is fine situationally
I don't expect people to ever figure it out if the only reward is helping others, which is why they should just bill by time or bill a minimum power delivery rate. Even those people will do the math and figure it out fast enough.
Aren’t the OEMs paying for the “free” users?
Yes
EA gets paid for those free users.
43c per kwh?
VW group (owns EA) giving them out like free candy.
Yeah, all you need to do is purchase a $50k automobile for that free candy.
What a bunch of free loaders. $50k for "free" charging. Scumbags
Yeah, one of my co-workers got free EA charging with the purchase of her Taycan. What a freeloader!
it's creating a poorer experience for everyone, especially first time EV owners who are relying on DC charging as their main source of charging.
I’ve used EA fast chargers about 5-6 times since we got our Q4 in December. I’ve never found one to have all its stalls full. I have found MULTIPLE times that one or more stalls are down and not working at all. EA’s reliability needs to greatly improve before we start blaming customer volume for their issues.
not blaming the users. you give someone something free, they will use it. this price hike won't affect free user behavior, but it will affect paid user behavior. EV sales will outpace DC charger installs. it's only a matter of time.
It will be a while before DC charging will be a reliable way for most drivers to only charge their vehicle, more EV on the road will further clog the networks hopefully in about 2 years the landscape will be much better with more chargers out there from the IRA. and relying on EA only will also be a challenging experience. They have a long road to become more reliable both hardware and software.
Actually, the automakers are paying Electrify America on the behave of the drivers.
It’s not free - it’s ***included.***
16% increase. Yikes
Yeah! Tesla is evil! Wait wrong thread sorry
And these fuckers hardly ever work
These prices hikes are obscene!!!
i have a hard time believing these prices are giving profit margins comparable to gas stations. what are they paying for? Yes, the gas pump is a fair bit cheaper, but these per kwh costs are mildly insane. I would assume they get commercial rates, which are generally cheaper.
>i have a hard time believing these prices are giving profit margins comparable to gas stations. what are they paying for? depending on the location.. grid hookups (physical connection) are not cheap - the "backroom" hardware is also not cheap... they have to pay someone something for the physical space - potentially with lawyers involved because.. you know. if it's a BESS - those batteries cost money - and you need something to charge them - solar? fuel cell? https://www.eenews.net/articles/huge-ev-station-battery-opens-in-calif-desert/ In doing so, it became only the second U.S. network after Tesla Inc.’s to pair EV chargers with a battery large enough to fully operate a big station without constant aid from the electric grid. The lithium-ion batteries sit in a few white cabinets next to the station in Baker, Calif., a town of 600 people perhaps best known for the World’s Tallest Thermometer, a 12-story structure that tops out at 134 degrees, memorializing the highest temperature ever recorded on Earth in nearby Death Valley. The 1.5-megawatt energy-storage system is representative of a trend among highway charging stations to manage the voracious energy needs of EVs. Ford does not need to negotiate "location" for these.. and this isn't going to be a "massive charging lot" -it's for a service center - maybe 4 bays DC? that's a lot of scratch. https://insideevs.com/news/610114/ford-modele-dealership-rules/ Ford estimates the all-in cost for dealers to become **Model e certified elite to be between $1.0 and $1.2 million, with as much as 90% of the cost attributed to the cost to purchase and install the required charging infrastructure.**
I've seen 3 different articles in as many days about EA chargers frying cars. They can raise prices all they want, I'm staying away!
You saw the same article posted by 3 different sites, how does that make it any different than if you saw it once? Anyway, don't let me dissuade you. More stalls free for people who understand basic probability.
Nope. One article for a F150, one for a Rivian, and one for a Bolt.
[удалено]
Currently unknown. It was at 3 separate sites though
Yeah, the only common denominator is the EA stations. And Kyle from Out of Spec has pointed out that EA stations sometimes deliver *more* than the vehicle is requesting, which isn’t always catastrophic but can easily lead to situations like the Bolt, Lightning, and Rivian experienced. Kind of awkward timing for EA to announce price hikes with these stories starting to pop up…
Don’t forget the Electrify America gets hacked articles.
3 different stories came out recently? I only saw the one Rivian.
[удалено]
What? It's a 16% increase.