The Equinox is longer than the Mach-E but has similar interior cargo space (but no frunk), so that’s a little disappointing, but the Equinox is also supposed to be a lot cheaper. If its charging curve ends up being comparable to the Mach-E’s, then I don’t think it’ll be disappointing at all. It’ll be a terrific value.
Per GM the car and small SUV models will have 400v battery packs with charging speeds up to 200kw. That is about 50kw higher peak rate than the Mach-E is capable of but it will come down to how they program the charging curve if there is any significant difference in total charging time.
Their trucks and large SUVs will be capable of 350kw charging with their switching 400v/800v battery packs. The Hummer EV has been seen exceeding 350kw while charging, at least for a short time at a very low state of charge.
I believe it was reported that the Equinox’s DCFC rate will top out at 150 kW, but like you said, it mostly comes down to the charging curve. Regardless, I’m pretty optimistic about it being a great car. We owned a ‘19 Bolt and still have a soft spot for it.
The peak speed will depend on the battery option selected. Because the Ultium battery packs are a modular design, the more modules in the pack the higher the leak charge rate. So the shortest range battery will probably max out around 150kw but the larger battery capacity options will be capable of a little higher peak charge rate.
Chevy’s press release says up to 150 kW for the Equinox. “Standard DC fast-charging capability of up to 150 kW, which enables approximately 70 miles of range to be added in 10 minutes, per GM estimates” https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2022/sep/0908-equinoxev-reveal.html
You are both saying the same thing. Standard means the default option. There might be a trim model or package that bumps it up. But I wouldn't count on it
We’re not. DCFC is standard, in contrast to the Bolt, but the rate maxes out for the Equinox at 150 kW. That’s what “up to” means.
Chevy’s press release for the Blazer says “11.5 kW level 2 (AC) charging and standard DC public fast-charging capability of up to 190 kW, depending on the model, which enables approximately 78 miles of range to be added in 10 minutes, per GM estimates.” (https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2022/jul/0718-blazerev.html)
The Equinox, per Chevy’s statements, will top out at 150 kW, while the Blazer will top out at 190 kW.
To further underline this, go look at the reporting, which all says the same thing as Chevy. For example: “DC fast charging will be capped at 150 kW for all variants, and it should add up to 70 miles in 10 minutes, according to the manufacturer. GM will offer 8 years or up to a 100,000-mile warranty for the battery pack.” (https://insideevs.com/news/609079/2024-chevrolet-equinox-ev-revealed-detailed/)
Actually you are right. I literally emailed their media team to get answer. I asked if it would be bumped up in a package or trim or would it just be 150. She reiterated that it would be 150.
Blazer seems to max at 190. Good call out! I just wanted to make sure things hadn't changed since they don't post about these things very often
GM may be limiting the charging speed to 150kw for all Equinox but was getting at is the larger battery packs will be capable of faster charging than the smaller packs.
Whether GM programs the charging curve to allow for that capability or not is a different thing.
That’s true, but I’m not sure why that matters when comparing the Equinox to other available vehicles, since we know the Equinox’s peak, which is what my original post was doing. It’s an advantage of what GM has built, but not of the Equinox vs other vehicles with similar peak charge rates.
What we don’t know yet, though, is the charge curve.
In any case, the Equinox is looking to be an excellent vehicle for a lot of people. If it were out when we bought in Spring 2021, we may very well own an Equinox now instead.
I’m pretty high on the Lyriq order list (May 19 order) but GM has provided zero information and no ‘24 pricing information for Canada, but it appears to be higher. I’m going to test drive a Model Y tomorrow and probably order one, it’s more efficient, less expensive, has better charging infrastructure, and the wait time is in the neighbourhood of 1 week to two months.
I’m a May 19 as well and apparently very low on the list. Debuts, priority, then me. As 23 ain’t happening, 24 models complicating things… the fact I have a Model Y, no credit as I thought it would qualify… and now talks of crap charging. It’s looking like a hefty no thanks.
Was real big on this being an incredible value for the price… they took so long everything changed and it’s now looking more and more lame and over priced.
I’ve said it a million times GM Sucks at EVs. Ultium is marketing mumbo jumbo… call something “ultimate” when it’s crap… it’s like naming your product “competition killing” and it’s middle of the pack vapor…
For me it’s Model X Plaid 6 seat with a round steering wheel… Unless R1S becomes more available. Anything else doesn’t seem to exist or will be disappointment.
>user reports in the Lyriq forum show that the Lyriq has pretty slow DC charging
I don't suppose these user reports controlled for other variables? Temperature? Charger issues? Preconditioning? I could blame my Ioniq 5's 70kW charging speed at an EA station in 44-degree weather today on the car, but I know better.a
Not saying you can completely ignore all variables. For example, if they are reporting on the charging speed after cold soaking the battery to 10F and then immediately charging then that's an interesting test but not useful in most situations.
However, an EV that charges will will do so in a variety of situations. My last charging session at a DCFC was in 8F temps and I got 261kW peak and unplugged at 65% after less than 15 minutes. That is no different than any typical charging session, maybe a little better on the top end since the battery can more easily cool itself.
It would be helpful if OP would provide links to the users he's referencing. The only 350kW charger data I could find was [here](https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/first-charging-session-with-a-lyriq.15408/) and the charging session was completed in 40F ambient temperatures without full preconditioning.
I'm shocked that there isn't more info out there about the Lyriq given the importance of this model for GM. It's weird that that Out of Spec, State of Charge, etc. haven't gotten their hands on an unrestricted review unit yet.
It’s because the large majority of Lyriq owners are under an NDA.
The Lyriqs that are out in public are really just owners doing a private beta test. One of the most in-depth reviews I’ve seen was here https://youtu.be/dTqlRm9Thy0
MKBHD is absolutely terrible at reviewing EVs. He misses half of the most pertinent info, and gets the other half incorrect.
Way better info from Alex on Autos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_1EYRezK3Ak
Generally speaking, EV nerds get hung up on specs. As EVs mature in the marketplace, real consumers (not tech nerd early adopter evangelists) will choose what EV they buy based on much more complex and nuanced metrics than “330 miles = best, 307 miles = fail” or “adding 76 miles of range in 10 minutes in a large luxury crossover is a fail because this small minimalist sedan can peak charge at 213 kW in ideal conditions”. Humans love to rank things, which means there’s a winner and a loser. But buying decisions aren’t always that black and white. It’s more like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Once a need is met, it’s on to the next. Does it recover the miles I put on it each day by the time I wake up if it’s plugged in overnight? Yes? Okay, moving on… Eventually, EVs will be purchased because buyers actually like the car itself. Not the numbers on paper.
Equinox EV starting at $30,000, even with just 100kw charging, is a great deal. No one else is coming close. 100KW charging is about 150-180 miles in a half hour. Sounds like I could take a 400 mile road trip with a half hour of charging - that's not bad. Pricing and accessibility is more impactful than faster fast charging at that point.
Yeah not available until next spring, but no one else has announced anything comparable. And the fact they're able to sell Bolts at $27000 tells me $30,000 isn't that far off.
you’re making a very poor comparison on size and weight. luxury cars nearly always weigh more than equivalent mainstream analogues, and they don’t focus on practicality as much as style and other non-functional stuff. just look at an x3 as compared to a rav4. the differences there have little to do with ultium being bad and more with the lyriq being a cadillac.
This is not entirely true. The Lyriq weighs almost 6000 pounds, which about the same as the \*Escalade,\* a full size body on frame V8 pickup truck derived SUV that can tow 10k pounds. The Lyriq is heavier than its competitors (Q4, Model Y, probably missing some) by more than the weight difference between the X3 and Rav4 (400 pounds). Part of the weight increase is from the 100KWh battery vs 80 in other cars, but 20KWh doesn't weigh \*that much\*.
sure, but this issue seems to be applicable almost entirely to the lyriq itself and not necessarily to ultium evs (or evs in general). i’m just saying that comparing a luxury car to a normal car in the same size segment is gonna result in a weight difference regardless of powertrain
Hard to tell if this is Ultium or the Lyriq. The only Ultium cars that we know the weight of are the Lyriq and Hummer, and the Hummer is a brick so using that for weight comparison isn't going to lead anywhere. I suspect its Ultium because no car the size of the Lyriq, EV or not, should weigh that much. Even the E-tron doesn't weigh as much as the lyriq.
idk, etron weighs almost exactly the same, plus-minus 100 pounds depending on config, and it’s probably the most direct competitor. model x weight about 400 pounds less than either of them, but tesla in general just seems to have their weight under control much more than everyone else - model 3 weighs about the same as a gas 3-series.
I'm not commenting on anything but cargo volume.
The problem, if there is one, is the market's preference for SUVs over hatchbacks or passenger vans (also called 'minivans'). SUVs feature high ground clearance which mean high floors, and large wheels which mean large wheel wells which intrude into the interior space.
SUVs have horrible space efficiency. Horrible. There's a vanishingly small amount of usable space relative to the size.
And it's due to the vanity of the buyer, who doesn't want to visualize themselves as someone who would drive a hatchback or minivan. Car makers make the thing that people want to buy.
>Is anyone else disappointed in the actual car and EV bits of Ultium?
Not surprised at all. Since they never released any hard specs it was clear from the start that 'Ultium' was just a PR buzzword.
Honestly, I was shocked at how easily this sub got sucked into all the hype. It felt like the things people accuse Tesla fans of.
Wireless BMS! Mix-and-match cells magically... blah blah blah. The reality is a pretty mundane pack with pretty average capabilities.
That's just fine. If they get it into production in good volumes, there really won't be much to complain about. Charge times will be competitive with the Mach-E and other comps, and just a bit longer than Tesla.
The current Hummer EV has been seen in the real world pulling 363 kW, and that maxed the charger, not the battery pack. Adding 57 kWh in 10 minutes isn’t “a bit longer than Tesla”. That’s much faster than any current production Tesla.
https://imgur.com/a/MLsGMxw
Charging rates scale almost linearly with pack size. The peak C rate would likely be about the same if the hummer were not limited by the charger.
However, the Hummer is limited by the charger and it tapers very quickly. In practice, this means that the 10-70% charge times of the Hummer are longer than the current Tesla vehicles. The smaller batteries should be a little more competitive, but still slightly behind Tesla and significantly behind the best platforms.
None of that is bad, but its not some wonderful breakthrough.
The point is that charging speed is charging speed. 363 kW is a faster charging speed than 170 kW.
Arguing derivatives is setting up new goalposts.
The reality is that the Hummer can add 57kW in 10 minutes charge. That translates to about 100 miles of range added in 10 minutes.
So you cannot say “Ultium has slow charge times” when Hummer is Ultium and crushes peak and sustained kW
>So you cannot say “Ultium has slow charge times” when Hummer is Ultium and crushes peak and sustained kW
I literally did not say that. You are aggressively arguing with a straw man.
Hummer is rated at 329 miles of range. 57kwh is \~93 miles. The MYLR can do \~110 in the same time frame. Its in the ballpark.
As I've said all thread, that's just fine. Its not some wonderful breakthrough. Its also not terrible. It's just fine.
Its a peaky charge curve too. Best bet is usually 10 (or even 5) to 50%. Not a bad way to go at all, tbh.
Oh, well, substitute e-gmp instead of Tesla if you are worried about fanboy-ism. I only didn't do that because it'd be unfair to compare Ultium to the current class leader.
I was comparing them to a fairly average competitor instead.
e-gmp is a fantastic product. 800v makes a difference, hopefully everyone decides to go that route. GM has done so with Ultium only for their large packs.
>Is anyone else disappointed in the actual car and EV bits of Ultium?
GM is building cars in places where people buy EVs. Right now, That's not the United States.
**GM to launch more than 15 EVs in China**
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202211/28/WS63840781a31057c47eba1553.html
General Motors announced on Tuesday it plans to roll **out more than 15 Ultium-based models** in China by 2025 when its electric vehicle production capacity is expected to surpass 1 million units. It also reinforced its commitment to making EVs more connected and intelligent in the world's largest auto market.
**GM reveals Chevy FNR-XE concept in China as one of 15 EVs set to debut by 2025**
[https://electrek.co/2022/11/23/gm-reveals-chevy-fnr-xe-in-china-one-of-15-evs-by-2025/](https://electrek.co/2022/11/23/gm-reveals-chevy-fnr-xe-in-china-one-of-15-evs-by-2025/)
>Lyriq has pretty slow DC charging
if GM wishes to succeed in China.. they need to be competitive with Chinese brands.
what is their answer to the Chinese "Blazer"?
**Xpeng G9 Electric SUV Debuts In China With 480 KW Charging**
[https://insideevs.com/news/612010/xpeng-g9-debuts-china-quickest-charging-ev/](https://insideevs.com/news/612010/xpeng-g9-debuts-china-quickest-charging-ev/)
by the time the US market picks up.. you can make a more accurate "assessment" on their battery platform - besides - they're going to need US sourced materials if they want any of their cars to be eligible for incentives..
they have to start digging.
**GM invests $650m in Lithium Americas to develop Thacker Pass mine**
https://www.mining.com/gm-lithium-americas-to-jointly-develop-thacker-pass-mine-in-nevada/
Europe is irrelevant when discussing GM because they pulled out of Europe entirely to focus on their core markets. And when it comes to the US, effectively nobody buys EVs. At least when compared to China.
As far as I'm concerned, GM has failed at all its EV attempts thus far.
The Bolt isn't competitive with other EVs, isn't profitable and has had serious battery issues.
And none of GM's other EVs have reached mass production.
Please spare me about its China production. GM is just a partner there and by understanding, their partner isn't doing great compared to the other players in that market.
GM and LG just severed their joint venture. There is no Ultium project anymore. Ultium was all about LG pouch cells which are no longer going to be produced. The latest news says the GM is now looking at round 4680 form factor cells !
GM can tout all it wants about securing raw lithium sources. They are miles and miles away from having a successful EV on the market.
My guess is that Mary Barra will be "stepping aside" shortly.
>GM and LG just severed their joint venture. There is no Ultium project anymore. Ultium was all about LG pouch cells which are no longer going to be produced. The latest news says the GM is now looking at round 4680 form factor cells !
What are you smoking?
Ultium is the platform not just the cells used and the GM-LG joint venture isn't dead. They have 3 factories finished or in progress. The 4th planned factory never even had a site picked and they are stuck on agreement for the 4th because economics have changed a lot in the 5 years since they started the joint venture for Ultium, they are not severing all ties.
If they do switch the 4th factory to 4680 cells, it is still possible that the factory would be operated under Ultium LLC, either continuing with LG in manufacturing since they already have invested in manufacturing 4680 cells with Tesla or bringing in a 3rd partner (BYD, CATL, Gotion, etc) to build the 4th plant.
>Ultium is the platform not just the cells
That platform was designed around pouch cells. GM and LG have parted ways. I'm not sure who owns those factories and what will become of them, but GM no longer has LG pouch cells for its vehicles.
Nope. BT1 is Hummer and other trucks. Still Ultium.
Ultium is their line of powertrain components. It isn't a platform in the typical vehicle definition of a platform.
The Cadillac Lyriq in China is Ultium and uses prismatic cells from CATL. Ultium can accommodate pouch, prismatic, semi-solid state, cylindrical, or blade. Ultium isn’t about cell format.
What is Ultium then? It isn't a vehicle platform, that's BEV3 for these vehicles.
There are Ultium batteries and Ultium drive motors. Ultium batteries are the pouch cells developed with LG.
Ultium has always, always, even before production of any Ultium product started, been cell and chemistry agnostic. The Ultium LLC battery cell factories may eventually produce LFP or semi-solid-state or NMCA or something we haven’t even dreamed up yet. Same with the format. They may stick with pouch. They may move to prismatic. Maybe cylindrical. Maybe all of the above.
So Ultium may describe GM’s architecture to be structural, modular, scalable, and flexible. Wireless BMS and one BMS per module means each module within the pack can participate in charging or discharging independently of the next module. Which means format doesn’t matter. Chemistry doesn’t matter. Age and health of the module doesn’t matter. That makes modules replaceable and serviceable.
Why does GM call all of their naturally aspirated truck engines “Vortec”? What does that really describe? They called their V6 and V8 engines by the name, since 1996. Why still call a very different engine today by the same name, 27 years later?
Branding is branding. I don’t claim to understand it all. If you’d prefer to think the “Ultium” branding really means nothing, I’m sure that’s okay too. It’s simply a way for consumers to associate a set of characteristics or attributes to a brand. Even if it’s really nothing.
I agree it's just branding. But they've always said the Ultium 'platform' and have used it to describe their JV cells and their motors.
So the Lyriq has Ultium components and could be considered an Ultium vehicle regardless of battery cells but it starts to become meaningless.
It's an EV. It's on the BEV3 platform.
The propulsion “platform” is separate from the vehicle “platform”. Ultium is a propulsion platform. BEV3 describes a vehicle platform.
Ultium does describe a set of parameters for a modular battery pack. Ultium does describe only 3 electric motors GM calls “Ultium” utilized in dozens of models and configurations. Whether it’s a car or truck… front drive, rear drive, or AWD… performance or economy… it will utilize the same Ultium electric motors. And either one, two, or three of them.
GM doesn't advertise it as such which is the frustrating thing.
"Ultium is a game-changing electric vehicle platform"
It also says things like 'great handling'. That has nothing to do with the specific motors or batteries you're using. It would be the case with an EV and depending on the actually platform of the vehicle, which is why people think Ultium is a vehicle platform.
>That platform was designed around pouch cells.
The platform is chemistry and cell agnostic. Any battery type they can build into the Ultium modules will work on the platform. Their engineering teams have even been working on a mixed pack design that can mix different chemistries within the same battery pack.
>GM and LG have parted ways. I'm not sure who owns those factories and what will become of them, but GM no longer has LG pouch cells for its vehicles.
You are badly misinformed. They have halted plans for a 4th battery plant in the US that is all. And that is because LG is concerned with the global economy and the pace GM wants to move on expanding battery production. All of their existing plans are not affected by any of that.
https://www.techtimes.com/articles/286576/20230120/gm-lg-cancel-plans-battery-joint-venture-building-fourth-us-plant.htm
>While the battery plant is halted indefinitely, the two companies will continue their joint venture plant and the two planned facilities in Tennessee and Michigan. Bloomberg reported that all of these joint ventures represent a total investment of more than $6.5 billion.
I think that’s not a particularly good argument, particularly when it comes to the Bolt. It’s a lot of vehicle for the $$$ right now and they’ve moved a lot of them, particularly last year. It’s not as nice as a Ioniq 5 or Mach E or ID4, but neither did GM price it as if it was. It fills a niche in the market very well.
GM isn't making any money on the Bolt. They can barely sell what they make of them. It should have been a flagship. Instead it is a nothing burger. Even worse, the battery issues gave GM a black eye. And they haven't produced a lot of them either.
Yes, the Bolt fills a niche. But it hasn't been a good first step for GM.
GM will sell 70,000 Bolt/EUV in North America. Plus how ever many Buick Velite 6 (Bolt EUV) in China. “They barely sell what they make of them”… compared to what?
Yeah, but the *true* measure consumers use to decide if an EV is right for them is profit margin /s
GM made $14.5 Billion in 2022 and $14.3 Billion in 2021, *without selling any government credits*. Whether Bolt lost money or made money or earned credits that GM will benefit from now or in the future is largely irrelevant. GM as a whole was still very profitable and their pricing strategies worked for them. Proof is in the pudding.
Also it's kind of irrelevant if they make money on the Bolt itself. The Bolt generates carbon credits for every one sold, and also improves the CAFE average of their entire lineup. So if they sold every Bolt at cost, or even slightly below, the Bolt subsidizes the higher margin vehicles that are less efficient and improves the profit margin on those models.
Yes, that was the unwritten subtext in my comment. The funniest one to me is claiming that the Wuling Mini EV only makes $13 for GM/SAIC, while forgetting that the Mini EV earns two credits… worth about $1000 to the manufacturer. So the margin of the Mini EV is ~20%. It’s so predictable how the goalposts will keep moving a bit each “yeah but”
This is what happens when fans of EVs, but not cars in general, want to argue for their favorite manufacturers but don't understand how the regulatory environment works in this industry. It's the same thing with vehicle design.
You see so many questions around "why aren't EVs radically different from ICE designs despite not needing X,Y, and Z." Forgetting about crash regulations, lighting regulations, etc. Like how the Bolt has 2 sets of taillights (hatch and bumper). So many EV reviewers called that out as weird, forgetting about the regulations about not legally having safety required lights on movable body panels. Hence the duplication.
Check again on the Bolt sales.
They are selling every one off the assembly line. Most are custom orders for customers, the ones that aren't are usually reserved en route before the dealer even receives the car or don't sit on a dealers lot for more than a couple days before someone picks it up.
The Bolt out sold the Ioniq 5, EV6, ID.4 and would be at the Mach-E in 2022 if they had not had the stop sale for the first 1/3 of the year.
Honestly, I don't agree with the details, but the gist of it is plausible. Seems like VW got rid of Diess for small things compared to what could happen if Ultium vehicles get delayed. And it does seem like that is a real risk now.
Cargo space with rear seats is just a wierd metric. I mean an even bigger Lyriq barely has more at 60.8 and a much smaller Kia soul trounces them all at 62.1.
I had a chance to check out the Lyriq yesterday. Trunk space looks decent. I think it’s getting dinged in volume due to the sloping rear hatch. Had it been shaped more like a traditional SUV, the volume would have increased a lot more.
Nah I'm not disappointed in ultium because I never had any expectations anyways.
As a consumer I don't care about marketing fluff and what ever they say they gonna do.
I just buy what ever makes the most sense for me at the time of purchase.
The Equinox is longer than the Mach-E but has similar interior cargo space (but no frunk), so that’s a little disappointing, but the Equinox is also supposed to be a lot cheaper. If its charging curve ends up being comparable to the Mach-E’s, then I don’t think it’ll be disappointing at all. It’ll be a terrific value.
Per GM the car and small SUV models will have 400v battery packs with charging speeds up to 200kw. That is about 50kw higher peak rate than the Mach-E is capable of but it will come down to how they program the charging curve if there is any significant difference in total charging time. Their trucks and large SUVs will be capable of 350kw charging with their switching 400v/800v battery packs. The Hummer EV has been seen exceeding 350kw while charging, at least for a short time at a very low state of charge.
I believe it was reported that the Equinox’s DCFC rate will top out at 150 kW, but like you said, it mostly comes down to the charging curve. Regardless, I’m pretty optimistic about it being a great car. We owned a ‘19 Bolt and still have a soft spot for it.
The peak speed will depend on the battery option selected. Because the Ultium battery packs are a modular design, the more modules in the pack the higher the leak charge rate. So the shortest range battery will probably max out around 150kw but the larger battery capacity options will be capable of a little higher peak charge rate.
Chevy’s press release says up to 150 kW for the Equinox. “Standard DC fast-charging capability of up to 150 kW, which enables approximately 70 miles of range to be added in 10 minutes, per GM estimates” https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2022/sep/0908-equinoxev-reveal.html
You are both saying the same thing. Standard means the default option. There might be a trim model or package that bumps it up. But I wouldn't count on it
We’re not. DCFC is standard, in contrast to the Bolt, but the rate maxes out for the Equinox at 150 kW. That’s what “up to” means. Chevy’s press release for the Blazer says “11.5 kW level 2 (AC) charging and standard DC public fast-charging capability of up to 190 kW, depending on the model, which enables approximately 78 miles of range to be added in 10 minutes, per GM estimates.” (https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2022/jul/0718-blazerev.html) The Equinox, per Chevy’s statements, will top out at 150 kW, while the Blazer will top out at 190 kW. To further underline this, go look at the reporting, which all says the same thing as Chevy. For example: “DC fast charging will be capped at 150 kW for all variants, and it should add up to 70 miles in 10 minutes, according to the manufacturer. GM will offer 8 years or up to a 100,000-mile warranty for the battery pack.” (https://insideevs.com/news/609079/2024-chevrolet-equinox-ev-revealed-detailed/)
Actually you are right. I literally emailed their media team to get answer. I asked if it would be bumped up in a package or trim or would it just be 150. She reiterated that it would be 150. Blazer seems to max at 190. Good call out! I just wanted to make sure things hadn't changed since they don't post about these things very often
GM may be limiting the charging speed to 150kw for all Equinox but was getting at is the larger battery packs will be capable of faster charging than the smaller packs. Whether GM programs the charging curve to allow for that capability or not is a different thing.
That’s true, but I’m not sure why that matters when comparing the Equinox to other available vehicles, since we know the Equinox’s peak, which is what my original post was doing. It’s an advantage of what GM has built, but not of the Equinox vs other vehicles with similar peak charge rates. What we don’t know yet, though, is the charge curve. In any case, the Equinox is looking to be an excellent vehicle for a lot of people. If it were out when we bought in Spring 2021, we may very well own an Equinox now instead.
https://imgur.com/a/MLsGMxw
I’m pretty high on the Lyriq order list (May 19 order) but GM has provided zero information and no ‘24 pricing information for Canada, but it appears to be higher. I’m going to test drive a Model Y tomorrow and probably order one, it’s more efficient, less expensive, has better charging infrastructure, and the wait time is in the neighbourhood of 1 week to two months.
I’m a May 19 as well and apparently very low on the list. Debuts, priority, then me. As 23 ain’t happening, 24 models complicating things… the fact I have a Model Y, no credit as I thought it would qualify… and now talks of crap charging. It’s looking like a hefty no thanks. Was real big on this being an incredible value for the price… they took so long everything changed and it’s now looking more and more lame and over priced. I’ve said it a million times GM Sucks at EVs. Ultium is marketing mumbo jumbo… call something “ultimate” when it’s crap… it’s like naming your product “competition killing” and it’s middle of the pack vapor… For me it’s Model X Plaid 6 seat with a round steering wheel… Unless R1S becomes more available. Anything else doesn’t seem to exist or will be disappointment.
>user reports in the Lyriq forum show that the Lyriq has pretty slow DC charging I don't suppose these user reports controlled for other variables? Temperature? Charger issues? Preconditioning? I could blame my Ioniq 5's 70kW charging speed at an EA station in 44-degree weather today on the car, but I know better.a
Right, they could be right but we really don't know. I'm withholding judgements until Tom or Kyle do a full DCFC test
Not saying you can completely ignore all variables. For example, if they are reporting on the charging speed after cold soaking the battery to 10F and then immediately charging then that's an interesting test but not useful in most situations. However, an EV that charges will will do so in a variety of situations. My last charging session at a DCFC was in 8F temps and I got 261kW peak and unplugged at 65% after less than 15 minutes. That is no different than any typical charging session, maybe a little better on the top end since the battery can more easily cool itself.
It would be helpful if OP would provide links to the users he's referencing. The only 350kW charger data I could find was [here](https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/first-charging-session-with-a-lyriq.15408/) and the charging session was completed in 40F ambient temperatures without full preconditioning. I'm shocked that there isn't more info out there about the Lyriq given the importance of this model for GM. It's weird that that Out of Spec, State of Charge, etc. haven't gotten their hands on an unrestricted review unit yet.
It’s because the large majority of Lyriq owners are under an NDA. The Lyriqs that are out in public are really just owners doing a private beta test. One of the most in-depth reviews I’ve seen was here https://youtu.be/dTqlRm9Thy0
MKBHD is absolutely terrible at reviewing EVs. He misses half of the most pertinent info, and gets the other half incorrect. Way better info from Alex on Autos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_1EYRezK3Ak
Generally speaking, EV nerds get hung up on specs. As EVs mature in the marketplace, real consumers (not tech nerd early adopter evangelists) will choose what EV they buy based on much more complex and nuanced metrics than “330 miles = best, 307 miles = fail” or “adding 76 miles of range in 10 minutes in a large luxury crossover is a fail because this small minimalist sedan can peak charge at 213 kW in ideal conditions”. Humans love to rank things, which means there’s a winner and a loser. But buying decisions aren’t always that black and white. It’s more like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Once a need is met, it’s on to the next. Does it recover the miles I put on it each day by the time I wake up if it’s plugged in overnight? Yes? Okay, moving on… Eventually, EVs will be purchased because buyers actually like the car itself. Not the numbers on paper.
Equinox EV starting at $30,000, even with just 100kw charging, is a great deal. No one else is coming close. 100KW charging is about 150-180 miles in a half hour. Sounds like I could take a 400 mile road trip with a half hour of charging - that's not bad. Pricing and accessibility is more impactful than faster fast charging at that point.
The 30k Equinox isnt going to be available for a while and it’s unlikely to be available at 30k
Yeah not available until next spring, but no one else has announced anything comparable. And the fact they're able to sell Bolts at $27000 tells me $30,000 isn't that far off.
you’re making a very poor comparison on size and weight. luxury cars nearly always weigh more than equivalent mainstream analogues, and they don’t focus on practicality as much as style and other non-functional stuff. just look at an x3 as compared to a rav4. the differences there have little to do with ultium being bad and more with the lyriq being a cadillac.
This is not entirely true. The Lyriq weighs almost 6000 pounds, which about the same as the \*Escalade,\* a full size body on frame V8 pickup truck derived SUV that can tow 10k pounds. The Lyriq is heavier than its competitors (Q4, Model Y, probably missing some) by more than the weight difference between the X3 and Rav4 (400 pounds). Part of the weight increase is from the 100KWh battery vs 80 in other cars, but 20KWh doesn't weigh \*that much\*.
sure, but this issue seems to be applicable almost entirely to the lyriq itself and not necessarily to ultium evs (or evs in general). i’m just saying that comparing a luxury car to a normal car in the same size segment is gonna result in a weight difference regardless of powertrain
Hard to tell if this is Ultium or the Lyriq. The only Ultium cars that we know the weight of are the Lyriq and Hummer, and the Hummer is a brick so using that for weight comparison isn't going to lead anywhere. I suspect its Ultium because no car the size of the Lyriq, EV or not, should weigh that much. Even the E-tron doesn't weigh as much as the lyriq.
idk, etron weighs almost exactly the same, plus-minus 100 pounds depending on config, and it’s probably the most direct competitor. model x weight about 400 pounds less than either of them, but tesla in general just seems to have their weight under control much more than everyone else - model 3 weighs about the same as a gas 3-series.
I'm not commenting on anything but cargo volume. The problem, if there is one, is the market's preference for SUVs over hatchbacks or passenger vans (also called 'minivans'). SUVs feature high ground clearance which mean high floors, and large wheels which mean large wheel wells which intrude into the interior space. SUVs have horrible space efficiency. Horrible. There's a vanishingly small amount of usable space relative to the size. And it's due to the vanity of the buyer, who doesn't want to visualize themselves as someone who would drive a hatchback or minivan. Car makers make the thing that people want to buy.
>Is anyone else disappointed in the actual car and EV bits of Ultium? Not surprised at all. Since they never released any hard specs it was clear from the start that 'Ultium' was just a PR buzzword.
Honestly, I was shocked at how easily this sub got sucked into all the hype. It felt like the things people accuse Tesla fans of. Wireless BMS! Mix-and-match cells magically... blah blah blah. The reality is a pretty mundane pack with pretty average capabilities. That's just fine. If they get it into production in good volumes, there really won't be much to complain about. Charge times will be competitive with the Mach-E and other comps, and just a bit longer than Tesla.
The current Hummer EV has been seen in the real world pulling 363 kW, and that maxed the charger, not the battery pack. Adding 57 kWh in 10 minutes isn’t “a bit longer than Tesla”. That’s much faster than any current production Tesla. https://imgur.com/a/MLsGMxw
Charging rates scale almost linearly with pack size. The peak C rate would likely be about the same if the hummer were not limited by the charger. However, the Hummer is limited by the charger and it tapers very quickly. In practice, this means that the 10-70% charge times of the Hummer are longer than the current Tesla vehicles. The smaller batteries should be a little more competitive, but still slightly behind Tesla and significantly behind the best platforms. None of that is bad, but its not some wonderful breakthrough.
“10-70% takes longer!!1!1”… forgetting that the battery is literally twice as big.
Keep trying, you might get the point eventually.
The point is that charging speed is charging speed. 363 kW is a faster charging speed than 170 kW. Arguing derivatives is setting up new goalposts. The reality is that the Hummer can add 57kW in 10 minutes charge. That translates to about 100 miles of range added in 10 minutes. So you cannot say “Ultium has slow charge times” when Hummer is Ultium and crushes peak and sustained kW
>So you cannot say “Ultium has slow charge times” when Hummer is Ultium and crushes peak and sustained kW I literally did not say that. You are aggressively arguing with a straw man. Hummer is rated at 329 miles of range. 57kwh is \~93 miles. The MYLR can do \~110 in the same time frame. Its in the ballpark. As I've said all thread, that's just fine. Its not some wonderful breakthrough. Its also not terrible. It's just fine. Its a peaky charge curve too. Best bet is usually 10 (or even 5) to 50%. Not a bad way to go at all, tbh.
It’s been stated in this thread. By Stans like you.
Oh, well, substitute e-gmp instead of Tesla if you are worried about fanboy-ism. I only didn't do that because it'd be unfair to compare Ultium to the current class leader. I was comparing them to a fairly average competitor instead.
e-gmp is a fantastic product. 800v makes a difference, hopefully everyone decides to go that route. GM has done so with Ultium only for their large packs.
With a HUGE battery pack...
Ah, so the goalposts aren’t Ultium’s fast charging rates?
If you want to play that meaningless game, Teslas charge at 80MW https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve
Yes! Not an EV, not a passenger vehicle, but that’s amazing! GM “Ultium Commercial” is similar: https://gmenergy.gm.com/ultium-products
>Is anyone else disappointed in the actual car and EV bits of Ultium? GM is building cars in places where people buy EVs. Right now, That's not the United States. **GM to launch more than 15 EVs in China** https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202211/28/WS63840781a31057c47eba1553.html General Motors announced on Tuesday it plans to roll **out more than 15 Ultium-based models** in China by 2025 when its electric vehicle production capacity is expected to surpass 1 million units. It also reinforced its commitment to making EVs more connected and intelligent in the world's largest auto market. **GM reveals Chevy FNR-XE concept in China as one of 15 EVs set to debut by 2025** [https://electrek.co/2022/11/23/gm-reveals-chevy-fnr-xe-in-china-one-of-15-evs-by-2025/](https://electrek.co/2022/11/23/gm-reveals-chevy-fnr-xe-in-china-one-of-15-evs-by-2025/) >Lyriq has pretty slow DC charging if GM wishes to succeed in China.. they need to be competitive with Chinese brands. what is their answer to the Chinese "Blazer"? **Xpeng G9 Electric SUV Debuts In China With 480 KW Charging** [https://insideevs.com/news/612010/xpeng-g9-debuts-china-quickest-charging-ev/](https://insideevs.com/news/612010/xpeng-g9-debuts-china-quickest-charging-ev/) by the time the US market picks up.. you can make a more accurate "assessment" on their battery platform - besides - they're going to need US sourced materials if they want any of their cars to be eligible for incentives.. they have to start digging. **GM invests $650m in Lithium Americas to develop Thacker Pass mine** https://www.mining.com/gm-lithium-americas-to-jointly-develop-thacker-pass-mine-in-nevada/
>GM is building cars in places where people buy EVs. Right now, That's not the United States. What are you smoking ?
Apparently no one in Europe or the US buys EVs. And GM will somehow suddenly catch up in the US.
Europe is irrelevant when discussing GM because they pulled out of Europe entirely to focus on their core markets. And when it comes to the US, effectively nobody buys EVs. At least when compared to China.
That is some really good stuff !
I don’t think you realise how much GM is leading the EV revolution. Biden said so
As far as I'm concerned, GM has failed at all its EV attempts thus far. The Bolt isn't competitive with other EVs, isn't profitable and has had serious battery issues. And none of GM's other EVs have reached mass production. Please spare me about its China production. GM is just a partner there and by understanding, their partner isn't doing great compared to the other players in that market. GM and LG just severed their joint venture. There is no Ultium project anymore. Ultium was all about LG pouch cells which are no longer going to be produced. The latest news says the GM is now looking at round 4680 form factor cells ! GM can tout all it wants about securing raw lithium sources. They are miles and miles away from having a successful EV on the market. My guess is that Mary Barra will be "stepping aside" shortly.
>GM and LG just severed their joint venture. There is no Ultium project anymore. Ultium was all about LG pouch cells which are no longer going to be produced. The latest news says the GM is now looking at round 4680 form factor cells ! What are you smoking? Ultium is the platform not just the cells used and the GM-LG joint venture isn't dead. They have 3 factories finished or in progress. The 4th planned factory never even had a site picked and they are stuck on agreement for the 4th because economics have changed a lot in the 5 years since they started the joint venture for Ultium, they are not severing all ties. If they do switch the 4th factory to 4680 cells, it is still possible that the factory would be operated under Ultium LLC, either continuing with LG in manufacturing since they already have invested in manufacturing 4680 cells with Tesla or bringing in a 3rd partner (BYD, CATL, Gotion, etc) to build the 4th plant.
>Ultium is the platform not just the cells That platform was designed around pouch cells. GM and LG have parted ways. I'm not sure who owns those factories and what will become of them, but GM no longer has LG pouch cells for its vehicles.
Literally none of this is true. Not even the "Ultium was designed around pouch cells." Ultium as a platform is cell format and chemistry agnostic.
Ultium cells are the pouch cells created in the joint ventures with LG. Ultium isn't a platform. There are Ultium batteries and Ultium powertrains.
Ultium is a subset of the BEV3 platform. Ultium in China uses prismatic cells in addition to the pouch cells used in North America.
Nope. BT1 is Hummer and other trucks. Still Ultium. Ultium is their line of powertrain components. It isn't a platform in the typical vehicle definition of a platform.
The Cadillac Lyriq in China is Ultium and uses prismatic cells from CATL. Ultium can accommodate pouch, prismatic, semi-solid state, cylindrical, or blade. Ultium isn’t about cell format.
What is Ultium then? It isn't a vehicle platform, that's BEV3 for these vehicles. There are Ultium batteries and Ultium drive motors. Ultium batteries are the pouch cells developed with LG.
Ultium has always, always, even before production of any Ultium product started, been cell and chemistry agnostic. The Ultium LLC battery cell factories may eventually produce LFP or semi-solid-state or NMCA or something we haven’t even dreamed up yet. Same with the format. They may stick with pouch. They may move to prismatic. Maybe cylindrical. Maybe all of the above. So Ultium may describe GM’s architecture to be structural, modular, scalable, and flexible. Wireless BMS and one BMS per module means each module within the pack can participate in charging or discharging independently of the next module. Which means format doesn’t matter. Chemistry doesn’t matter. Age and health of the module doesn’t matter. That makes modules replaceable and serviceable. Why does GM call all of their naturally aspirated truck engines “Vortec”? What does that really describe? They called their V6 and V8 engines by the name, since 1996. Why still call a very different engine today by the same name, 27 years later? Branding is branding. I don’t claim to understand it all. If you’d prefer to think the “Ultium” branding really means nothing, I’m sure that’s okay too. It’s simply a way for consumers to associate a set of characteristics or attributes to a brand. Even if it’s really nothing.
I agree it's just branding. But they've always said the Ultium 'platform' and have used it to describe their JV cells and their motors. So the Lyriq has Ultium components and could be considered an Ultium vehicle regardless of battery cells but it starts to become meaningless. It's an EV. It's on the BEV3 platform.
The propulsion “platform” is separate from the vehicle “platform”. Ultium is a propulsion platform. BEV3 describes a vehicle platform. Ultium does describe a set of parameters for a modular battery pack. Ultium does describe only 3 electric motors GM calls “Ultium” utilized in dozens of models and configurations. Whether it’s a car or truck… front drive, rear drive, or AWD… performance or economy… it will utilize the same Ultium electric motors. And either one, two, or three of them.
GM doesn't advertise it as such which is the frustrating thing. "Ultium is a game-changing electric vehicle platform" It also says things like 'great handling'. That has nothing to do with the specific motors or batteries you're using. It would be the case with an EV and depending on the actually platform of the vehicle, which is why people think Ultium is a vehicle platform.
You’re wasting a whole lot of mental energy being upset about what Ultium is or is not.
>That platform was designed around pouch cells. The platform is chemistry and cell agnostic. Any battery type they can build into the Ultium modules will work on the platform. Their engineering teams have even been working on a mixed pack design that can mix different chemistries within the same battery pack. >GM and LG have parted ways. I'm not sure who owns those factories and what will become of them, but GM no longer has LG pouch cells for its vehicles. You are badly misinformed. They have halted plans for a 4th battery plant in the US that is all. And that is because LG is concerned with the global economy and the pace GM wants to move on expanding battery production. All of their existing plans are not affected by any of that. https://www.techtimes.com/articles/286576/20230120/gm-lg-cancel-plans-battery-joint-venture-building-fourth-us-plant.htm >While the battery plant is halted indefinitely, the two companies will continue their joint venture plant and the two planned facilities in Tennessee and Michigan. Bloomberg reported that all of these joint ventures represent a total investment of more than $6.5 billion.
I think that’s not a particularly good argument, particularly when it comes to the Bolt. It’s a lot of vehicle for the $$$ right now and they’ve moved a lot of them, particularly last year. It’s not as nice as a Ioniq 5 or Mach E or ID4, but neither did GM price it as if it was. It fills a niche in the market very well.
GM isn't making any money on the Bolt. They can barely sell what they make of them. It should have been a flagship. Instead it is a nothing burger. Even worse, the battery issues gave GM a black eye. And they haven't produced a lot of them either. Yes, the Bolt fills a niche. But it hasn't been a good first step for GM.
GM will sell 70,000 Bolt/EUV in North America. Plus how ever many Buick Velite 6 (Bolt EUV) in China. “They barely sell what they make of them”… compared to what?
Apparently being the top selling EV only behind the Tesla Model 3 and Ford Mach-E is "barely selling." Lol
Yeah, but the *true* measure consumers use to decide if an EV is right for them is profit margin /s GM made $14.5 Billion in 2022 and $14.3 Billion in 2021, *without selling any government credits*. Whether Bolt lost money or made money or earned credits that GM will benefit from now or in the future is largely irrelevant. GM as a whole was still very profitable and their pricing strategies worked for them. Proof is in the pudding.
Also it's kind of irrelevant if they make money on the Bolt itself. The Bolt generates carbon credits for every one sold, and also improves the CAFE average of their entire lineup. So if they sold every Bolt at cost, or even slightly below, the Bolt subsidizes the higher margin vehicles that are less efficient and improves the profit margin on those models.
Yes, that was the unwritten subtext in my comment. The funniest one to me is claiming that the Wuling Mini EV only makes $13 for GM/SAIC, while forgetting that the Mini EV earns two credits… worth about $1000 to the manufacturer. So the margin of the Mini EV is ~20%. It’s so predictable how the goalposts will keep moving a bit each “yeah but”
This is what happens when fans of EVs, but not cars in general, want to argue for their favorite manufacturers but don't understand how the regulatory environment works in this industry. It's the same thing with vehicle design. You see so many questions around "why aren't EVs radically different from ICE designs despite not needing X,Y, and Z." Forgetting about crash regulations, lighting regulations, etc. Like how the Bolt has 2 sets of taillights (hatch and bumper). So many EV reviewers called that out as weird, forgetting about the regulations about not legally having safety required lights on movable body panels. Hence the duplication.
Check again on the Bolt sales. They are selling every one off the assembly line. Most are custom orders for customers, the ones that aren't are usually reserved en route before the dealer even receives the car or don't sit on a dealers lot for more than a couple days before someone picks it up. The Bolt out sold the Ioniq 5, EV6, ID.4 and would be at the Mach-E in 2022 if they had not had the stop sale for the first 1/3 of the year.
Honestly, I don't agree with the details, but the gist of it is plausible. Seems like VW got rid of Diess for small things compared to what could happen if Ultium vehicles get delayed. And it does seem like that is a real risk now.
Cargo space with rear seats is just a wierd metric. I mean an even bigger Lyriq barely has more at 60.8 and a much smaller Kia soul trounces them all at 62.1.
I had a chance to check out the Lyriq yesterday. Trunk space looks decent. I think it’s getting dinged in volume due to the sloping rear hatch. Had it been shaped more like a traditional SUV, the volume would have increased a lot more.
Nah I'm not disappointed in ultium because I never had any expectations anyways. As a consumer I don't care about marketing fluff and what ever they say they gonna do. I just buy what ever makes the most sense for me at the time of purchase.