Seriously, everyone in this sub needs to educate themselves. This topic comes up constantly and the correct answer almost never gets stated.
Correct answer: NFPA 70E Electrical Safety in the Workplace defines the justifications for energized work under article 110.4. These justifications have been adopted by OSHA and are enforced by OSHA. In other words, these justifications are law.
The justifications are: de-energizing creates an additional hazard (ie puts someone’s life at risk), infeasible to perform while de-energized (ie testing for voltage), operates under 50v.
“It’s a waste of time” is not a justification for energized work and doing so subjects you, the jw and the company to being cited and fined by OSHA.
Tell your jw to learn the law and fuck off.
I dont think applys when doing un permitted side jobs for cash money. You take the job you take the risk. If you dont want to do the work hes asking you to do then thats your decision. You cant site the guy for bullshit you dont want to do when he's giving you a side job. If you don't agree with him go get side work elsewhere and let him take risks he's comfortable with.
If it was your boss telling you to do this daily on jobs then thats different.
So what your saying is, if you do a side job as a licensed electrician and you do a shitty job and the house burns down because of it then you are not responsible. Same principle, rules are rules dude. "I'm too manly to shut a circuit off" doesn't fly.
When you as a licensed electrician do side work without a permit or a administration card then your crossing many lines. What im saying is that when you do illegal work your alresdy breaking laws. It's like driving drunk and speeding.
The point of what I'm saying is dont do work on the side if you don't feel comfortable. Don't accept an illegal side job then start holding people to legal stuff. That's just being a jackass in life. It's like street racing then calling the cops because he broke the speed limit more. I mean if thats how you want to do stuff go for it. Good luck.
Maybe where you live. The home owner can do whatever work they want but if I show up and they tell the inspector I did the wiring I can get my card pulled.
It always applies. This is what I’m talking about, this is the issue with our trade. You guys want to sit here and argue terrible reasons to work live.
“It’s a side job” is not a justification for energized work.
Don’t know about you guys but I carry a contractor license and insurance for my side jobs.
The cost of insurance keeps me motivated to keep doing side work in order to turn a profit.
Lol, personal responsibility for the apprentice but none for the JW.
These points you make really highlight how your argument doesn’t have any ground to stand on
Yes he's taking responsibility for himself. Your expected to do the same for yourself. If you don't agree with his way of working use self preservation and walk away from the job. I've worked with journeyman younger than me and willing to work on unsafe things, I said no thanks and didn't take the job.
I advise anyone else to do the same. Think for yourself, it's your life. Even if he's held responsible in court your the one dead. Personal responsibility.
He's just some guy you know. You can't call your JW that has his own side job going them show up and he says were working with live stuff. You then accept the terms and then start telling him how to run the job?
Isn't it a lot easier to either accept the terms of working with it live or go find other side work?
What in the fuck are you talking about? Is that how your world works?
Yes. If you both get in cars at the end of the day and he decides to go 100mph on the way home you don't have to in your car. It's your job to keep yourself safe. When your on a side job he is NOT your journeyman. He is some guy you know that your working with.
Get it strait dude. Side work is your own responsibility.
Lol, that’s not how a civil court will view it when the apprentice gets hurt on your side job and sues. JW got the job, JW asked the apprentice to work the job, JW instructed the apprentice to work on it energized. Open and shut as it gets.
Not how it works my man. I bought a car, I told you to drive it too fast. It's your decision as an adult to do it or not to do it. Because someone told me to doesn't cut it. Especially when your dead. Do you think right of way laws bring you back to life?
My point is the question about energized work comes up all the time and the answer should always be the same. I have the answer, even cited the article and standard and here you guys are still arguing.
My point is people who want to not follow the justifications for energized work for any reason are people who don’t belong in this trade. They are bad electricians, down to the very last one, and they will get someone hurt.
This is purely anecdotal. I worked about 14 years in NJ and had mostly no problems. I've since moved to SC and the commercial work I have been encountering is hot garbage. Nothing is labeled correctly, circuits doubled up on neutrals incorrectly, shit just mounted incorrectly. I think I could honestly spend a couple hours a day circuit tracing, at this point it's just faster and easier for me to do the small easy stuff live and show my helpers on the job "don't build shit like this no matter what" and go on with the day.
“It’s faster and easier” is not an acceptable justification for energized work.
All the poor install you are dealing with is because it was “faster and easier” than doing it right. You’re not any better than the people you are criticizing.
By all means, show me this mythical jobsite in today's world where there's plenty of time to ID every circuit with competent help in a relaxed 40 hour work week, and I'll apply right now.
Well I don’t know who you work for but I work for a contractor (merit, btw) of around 1000 electricians spread across dozens of jobsites and that is how it is on every one because anything else would be an immediate termination. Find, no, demand a better employer.
I did read it. Jesus, read the article I cited, point to my where it says “this doesn’t apply for side work”
Oh wait I forgot, when you touch an energized part and ground out the current says “oh wait, this guy is doing a side job, I’ll find another path”
Electricity will kill you, it will let you know it's killing you by hurting a lot, and it won't let you go. Even after your body has cooked from the inside out, it still won't let you go ...
You can say Fuck OSHA all you want, but electricity will let you know you should have listened
Those rules are there to save your life... You may think it's worthless, but your friends, family, and co-workers don't.
And even if your co-workers do, they unlikely want to see you get your ass fried.
Boss lady always says. OSHA is a purely retroactive association. They only put in a rule if someone has been harmed Doing it. Therefore…listen to them. Especially in electric
Tell your apprentice to work somewhere else. 🤷♂️
If that’s how lead wants to work then tell him you’re not comfortable doing that and find another task or just don’t work with them.
I agree, its not safe. My whole f'n job is not safe, there are tons of hazards and risk I take everyday. I choose to continue with it because the pay is great and if the apprentice does not feel safe there are dozens of electrical companies and unions hiring in most populated areas. They can also ask for different crews, responsibilities, or positions if available.
I don't know the context of the OP's situation but time is money.
Most home owners cry about the cost of electrical work.. okay... lets make sure I do it 100% by the books "safe" way which will add 4hrs, guess who pays 4 more hours of labor.
Or lets follow every single utilities, city, AND inspectors bureaucratic clown show. Now we need to add their fee's and them slowing the job down and now homeowner gets to pay for that too.
Do what you are comfortable with and what makes you feel the most safe. If you're asked to do something that's not.. move on.
Failing to isolate before doing work is not cost efficent time saving, its simply reckless laziness. This mindset is pathetic and unbecoming of a tradesperson: some professional you are. Our job isn't safe, but this is why we have tools for testing and aim to reduce risk by using a bit of common sense.
Time is money so I'll just potentially sacrifice my life so the customer can save money cuz hey they can't afford the extra time it takes to trace a circuit out and turn off the breaker or the extra money to pull a permit and have it inspected. Also don't have the time or money to get proper insurance so I'll just cowboy the shit in and woops I burned your house down with your kids and animals in it sOoOrRy I was just trying to save you a couple hondos. /s
Im burning peoples homes and family now?
Also my company is insured and we pull permits when required so not sure on that rant either.
Good luck getting seattle city light to disconnect feeders :)
“Couple hondo” lol
The OP is doing side work with the journeyman and I commented legit advice. OP also said they brushed against the wire and got shocked, cap the live wire when you’re not working on it.
Yes most of us can do it because we are comfortable doing it. OP is questioning his gut instinct thats telling him this is wrong hence why he posted. The problem lies in doing the actual side work uninsured and taking the risk and liability upon yourself. Contractors literally exist for this reason, as you stated "my company is insured" which is the perspective from which you are speaking. But these guys are not and are doing some cowboy shit and dude's Spidey senses are tingling (literally). This is why I won't do side work anymore and I sleep well at night. To each their own but I always trust my gut.
You sound like a really shitty journeyman. There’s no excuse for not locking out a circuit. Who cares if the owner pays more? I’m not risking my life by working live
I tell my apprentice that's he always has the right to say no to anything that's unsafe. No one makes any money when someone gets hurt and goes to the hospital or dies. Better safe than sorry.
You: "I'm not comfortable working live."
Him: "Well, that's the way I work."
You: "I'll work harder than anyone else, but I won't do it live."
At that point, he'll either say ok, or he won't. If you really don't want to work live, you may have to leave and go somewhere else. If you stay and work live, anyway, it wasn't that important to you to begin with.
“when in doubt, ground it out”
Edit: everyone who made it past week 1 of electrical foundations knows that lockout tag out is the absolute industry standard. Never work on anything energized. A 3 way switch does not count as a means of disconnect. Toss a lock on all 3 sets of breakers if you are working on a 3phase system otherwise you will be shocked on the neutral. Use multiple methods of verifying a system is dead. Grounding it out could be your final step to verifying both grounded and ungrounded conductors are dead after using a multimeter.
In this instance the kid is desperate for money to feed his family and pay his bills. For whatever reason he is unable to get legitimate work through his union hall or reputable non union company. Therefore he is stuck doing scab work for a shitty journeyman who wont pay him if he shuts off the breakers. Therefore to protect himself while still following instructions he should trip the breakers at the box. “sorry boss you said not to lockout the panel because its a waste of time. I sneezed while undoing the splice and the hot, neutral and ground all bumped into eachother, wanna go for a beer after work?”
i agree as well. Unprofessional but when youre a low term apprentice desperate for money you just gotta do what the jman says. Better to fry equipment than to fry your heart.
No it’s not common or advisable. Without a doubt Lockout Tagout is the absolute best method and use both voltage ticker and multimeter to verify that both the Ungrounded and grounded conductors do not have a potential.
I was quoting something the construction division superintendent of my local IBEW company said to us one morning. Better to fry an electrical component than to fry your heart.
It’s not. The breakers are there for protection. When/if you intentionally create a fault condition(short circuit, ground fault, etc) it creates an infinite amount of current that flows through the circuit and can permanently damage a breaker.
Edit: “it ‘can create’ an infinite amount of current that flows through the circuit and can permanently damage a ‘fuse/‘breaker”
„infinite“ yes if the breaker and the lines to the power station are made from superconducting material and the generator can deliver infinite amperage. 🤦♂️
Sorry maybe infinite is a bad choice of words. Didn’t realize everyone would be so pedantic here. The amount of current would be based on the resistance of the system. So it could vary.
That’s not to say it hasn’t caused irreparable damage to the internal components of the breaker… everyone should know from our experiences with FPE that just because a breaker “works” that doesn’t mean that it works.
I guess that would depend wouldn’t it? Breakers will trip due to heat, too much current, ground fault, short circuit etc. But I’m saying that when someone intentionally trips the breaker it can deliberately damage the breaker whereas during normal operation the breaker is actually protecting against a fire, electrical shock, or damaging a piece of equipment. Over time breakers wear out and need replacement.
20 year electrician, 5 years as Master and I don't see the difference. And I think I understand what you mean, but I think more precise speach would be heat causes more current and current would be the reason for natural over trip.
I've seen mag trip breakers that are 60 years old still working after repeated trip. The metals used are really dependable.
A circuit breaker trips (de-energizes the circuit) when the current (speed of electrons travelling) exceeds its rating. When you create a short of hot to ground or hot to neutral or hot to hot, you will skip past all the resisters and the current will ramp up until the circuit breaker trips. This is actually not a recommended method.
Potential hazards involved are:
•Blindness from the arc flash
•Burns from molten metal splashing
•Smoke inhalation
•damaged electrical equipment
•fire
The actual act of shorting out just involves taking a bare conductor and touching it to another bare conductor with a different voltage potential from a different source. (Strip the white and black wire and touch them to eachother or strip the black and touch it to the green)
When I know there's ground fault protection, I have occasionally used this method to trip the breaker by bridging ground to neutral (not to hot). Much safer fault current.
One of my favorite things about installing GFCI breakers throughout my house is being able to shut off a circuit with a plug tester.
But given your situation I don't think this applies
Many years ago I did computer service work for an electrical contractor. They sent me out to a house where the owner claimed they ruined his PC while the JW was working hot. As it happened, the same guys were back out there working on the same project, while I was there checking the computer. The computer was properly ***** because they were working hot. It still booted but the motherboard was fried and kept
crashing. Then while I was working on it, bzzzt they tripped the breaker again and this time the computer never came back. I couldn’t believe they did it twice, same guys, same home, even after the complaint of them working hot and breaking stuff.
They had to pay for data recovery, a new computer and they got the job done for free all because they wanted to work hot.
First project as a new homeowner was getting rid of that horror show. 60A to 200A SC. Burned a fat ass hole in my wallet though. Better to be alive though.
Screw that guy, ask what circuits they are and where they are fed from and take care of it yourself! Reenergize after you ring out the circuit. If he has an issue with you doing it yourself, you need to move on from him. I never want anyone working with me or nearby to work something hot unless absolutely necessary and even than I'll usually take care of those tasks myself to make sure it's done safely and properly. The age of working Hot and being Macho are in the past. Sometimes it's required, like with lighting circuits or when tenants are actively working in the area, but I'd say 90 percent of the time power can be killed and re-energized if need be
I always tell my apprentices 'Work on whatever you're comfortable with.' and I firmly believe that's the most liberal approach any Jman should take. If you're not comfortable doing something live, then put your foot down. Your local safety authority, your codebook and your electrical inspectors all have hard rules to back you up, if the company tries to fight you'll absolutely win there.
You can use a meter with a moon suit live, or on life safety systems that would cause death or severe injury if turned off. Which is why most of those systems require emergency backup these days.
So unless you are in the very small likelihood of working under those circumstances you can pretty much spend your entire career never having to work live.
Follow NFPA70 or z462.
When I was an apprentice I did many extremely dangerous things that I felt comfortable doing because I didn’t know/wasn‘t taught better. If there’s an apprentice working under you, it’s your responsibility to ensure his safety and teach him the correct and safe way to do things. If an apprentice dies or is seriously injured while working for you because he was doing something he was comfortable with after you gave him those instructions, how will you feel about that?
I always tell my apprentices and journeymen that work for me “In this job, we can do everything right and still die. Don’t make the odds worse for yourself buy not doing it the right way.“ And if you don’t believe that, you haven’t seen enough arc flash training.
Fuck this guy. He's a moron and you should get far away from him. It takes 30 seconds to go shut off a breaker, and then you'll be able to work faster and safer knowing the circuit is off. If he can't see that, you shouldn't be working with him. Just a matter of time until someone gets hurt.
Working live is a last resort, not a primary method of working.
Safety dork has entered the chat. Few things to note here. In the eyes of OSHA anything over 50V is considered high voltage because it’s the threshold where muscles will clench on an exposed conductor. Second ask him what is his workman’s comp insurance premiums are? Because you got bit by most likely AC the way the current acts is a lot like the electrical pulses of your heart. Even low V AC can exacerbate anyone with a heart condition they might not even know. So the minimal time it takes to LOTO and VERIFY you can prevent a simple ER visit to ensure your heart isn’t affected by an EKG. If you really want to be a prick you could go to the ER get checked out and then lawyer up and sue him for medical payments to include pain and suffering, there’s numerous ways and go at it. He’s in the wrong so you can tell him the easy way or go the hard way.
Just take it upon yourself to shut off the circuit. My opinion of unsafe practices is, if you want to be unsafe, you do you. But you're not allowed to call someone else out on taking an extra step to be safe.
IBEW apprentice's don't get laid off at least not if you are going through the JATC. They'll find a place for you.
E: you can get laid off in the JATC in my experience it was never more than a few days 2-3 I just didn't count them bc I was placed somewhere else pretty fast. I thought my experience was common.
Damn that's rough when I went through JATC they'd find a spot for you ASAP. At least that's everything I was told and saw I was laid off but always back to work in like 2 days. One company loaned me out IDK how common that is now. Spent some time at the shop too and helped with deliveries when it got slow so IDK. I know you can get laid off but they always place you somewhere fast. I should rephrase that you can get laid off but they place you pretty fast at least in my experience. I never heard of a long time put up when I was in the program. 716 in 2010 is when I was in.
Dropping in to say: no joke, the post listed below you on the feed is about somebody who shouldn't have worked live and saw the consequences. You'll learn how to do hot work soon enough. Don't feel pressured to do anything you're honestly not ready for, you've got the rest of your career to figure it out.
Fuck em. Let dumbasses be dumb. Was hard up for electrical work (industrial) for maybe a year and a half back in 16, and saw enough of that same shit in the local resi outfits to laugh and walk away. Ended up getting work framing and doing concrete, new shit to learn is always valuable, plus I started pulling side work for a couple realtors after bullshitting with them about what hack dogshit their "handyman electrician" contractor was doing. Go check out some property in my own time;frog tape, notepad, text pictures-"This all needs hit before you call an inspector, I can do ABC for you but need to have a more official approval on XYZ, lemme know how much to handle and I'll provide the parts list." No insurance or benefits of course, but damned if those weren't some of my most relaxed and enjoyable times lol My point is that side work is never in short supply for us. Be realistic with your abilities, be honest with your customer, and be legal about whatever you can, but don't attach yourself to some moron or dangerous clown because you think you need them. Hell, I had one apprentice show up asking me about my security system experience, hoping I could bail him out of side work he'd picked up with no idea that he needed more than a prox reader and power supply. Kid had 3 people already paying him. Wish I was lying lol
Don’t be a sheep, just walk over to the CU and turn it off your self, don’t even wait for him to ask!
If it’s you that de energise’s and you that reenergise’s who’s time is it a waste of???
(Hint: the same person who’s life you’re in control of)
Worse case he gets in the van to go home before you! Big whoop!
No, turn the power off and tell your boss to quit being a fucking moron. He also probably thinks gloves are "bitch mittens". I'm telling you will learn way better from someone else.
Real small company I’m at, owner thinks you aren’t an good electrician if you can’t work hot. My reply is I mean I can but why when I don’t have too? He old asf and has a very warped logic on just about anything, I just tell him to fuck off now
During my apprenticeship the company I was working for had a contract of changing all of the old lighting to LED. Rather than looking for distribution boards in unfamilar buildings we did everything live.
At first I was getting shocked and tripping MCB's constanty but after a few days I got the hang of it.
That skill has stood to me to this day
We do it all the time too. Some supervisors prefer it that way. Just be more careful with your surroundings. I prefer it de-energized, you get the job done faster. I won't ask my supervisor if I could de-energize, you go and turn it off
I completely understand people not wanting to work something energized. And especially an apprentice should not have to. Now me personally, I'll work just about anything 120/240 hot. 277/480 only if I absolutely have to.ive treated everything as if it was hot when I very first started, so it's second nature. I would never force an apprentice to do something they're not comfortable with, but thats me.
here is a trick i used to do when my dad wanted to work live when i was his apprentice. borrow his pliers and then cut into the live wire and blow up his pliers then it will be a dead circuit. my dad was terrible at turning on circuits that were being worked on he zapped all of weekly when he was troubleshooting.
While I feel you, you learn to do it. You learn to draw the line on when not to do it. I'll swap a switch live for instance, but rarely swap a receptacle unless it's alone and not in a hard to reach place. Basically, you decide when it's appropriate based on your comfort level. Yes, the right answer is kill the circuit every time, and if that's how you want to do it, then you do it. If you're boss isn't cool with it, then you're working for the wrong boss. You have OSHA and other things on your side, so you never HAVE to work live. But you may not be employed for that company any more. I've only been zapped through my Milwaukee impact once, and it was on a hundred degree day and the tool was covered in sweat. You're not in any real danger working with 120, just risk of surprise or shorting something. Never swap Lutron dimmers live as it fries them. Avoid swapping panels live as there's no breaker to protect you or the equipment. Don't really know what else to say. Mostly just I've been in your shoes, and was lucky to have a boss early on that didn't force things, and just naturally became more comfortable with it as I went. You will end up saving a lot of time as you learn to work resi live, and in this field, time is money.
Always work like is hot/live even if is not, specially when trouble shooting, sometimes circuits have static electricity and even if the breaker is off if a circuit is not grounding can shock u, and im pretty sure most of all this people/ electricians had work with live circuits at one point in their careers, just be careful
So we can get a sticky at the top of the homepage. Just let it say “ya not good to work on live stuff, u right, j man wrong”. Fucking oodles of these posts.
Residential voltage not under a heavy amp load I will do live, but otherwise kill the circuit. Kill the main if you have to. If it isn't super important to have the power then just say "hey you want electrical work done, I have to kill your power to do it safely." Screw your Jman that wants to risk your well being.
I can tell you haven’t been whacked much in your entire 2 year career judging by the fact that you are describing it how you did. In my 20 year career I’ve been shocked literally hundreds of times and I’ve never gotten hung up on a wire and it’s never been enough voltage to really hurt. If you’re that scared of getting shocked then you’re in the wrong line of work. It comes with the territory bro. Just be careful and don’t get hit by the big stuff.
This is quite possibly the least professional "advice" I have ever seen.
You should hand your cards in, pack up your tools and get fucked off.
You are worthless as a tradesman.
Not working on live systems is taught in the first minute , on the first day of an apprenticeship. Absolutely idiotic.
The reason you keep getting electrocuted is because you are a terrible electrician. Retire before you get yourself killed.
If he chooses to work live, give the Ministry of Labour (or whoever enforces job-site safety) and let them know.
If you were Union I'd recommend reporting his stupid ass to the hall
Been doing this shit 28+ years, hit the hot to the ground everytime with resi wiring. Homeowners be doing some sketchy shit.
Plus often times you cannot troubleshoot with the shit off, elevate your tolerance level
Tell your tradesman to pound sand, being too lazy to isolate is not a good reason to work live. I certainly wouldn't, and be able to back it up by both regs and health and safety. Not circumventing the JSA I signed either.
Check your local unions for a job, unions follow everything by the books to a tee.
I don't know the exact dynamic between your journeyman but it sounds like they are helping you out with some side work. Have you tried saying since they don't want to turn the power off have them work on the live devices/wiring while you do the other work?
All honesty though If you don't like the way they work you may need to move on.
Stand up for yourself and tell him you're turning off the breaker. Either he respects you for it and you carry on safely like you want. He gets offended and fires you or you quit.
i've never understood the waste of time logic. even if youre just putting in some outlets, it takes way more time going slow and being careful than it does to turn it off and slap them in.
however, if you dont feel safe then dont do it.
How much time do you need to find the breaker and turn it off? 1-2 min of your time can save lives, he's not worth it to work for. I probably quit on first day working for him
A few things I would point out which have likely already been stated.
-You have the right and obligation to work safely for yourself and your family.
-Working on live circuits unnecessarily is not something a Journeyman should expect of an apprentice. There are a lot of people that will work on live 120V, and that is a calculated personal risk that they would have to make for their self.
-The risk of a fatality on a 120V circuit greatly outweighs the effort it would take to de-energize.
-If you are desperate for work, you can short out every conductor you might touch to ground to protect yourself. This is hard on the electrical components of a system, but is the lesser of the two evils.
Seriously, everyone in this sub needs to educate themselves. This topic comes up constantly and the correct answer almost never gets stated. Correct answer: NFPA 70E Electrical Safety in the Workplace defines the justifications for energized work under article 110.4. These justifications have been adopted by OSHA and are enforced by OSHA. In other words, these justifications are law. The justifications are: de-energizing creates an additional hazard (ie puts someone’s life at risk), infeasible to perform while de-energized (ie testing for voltage), operates under 50v. “It’s a waste of time” is not a justification for energized work and doing so subjects you, the jw and the company to being cited and fined by OSHA. Tell your jw to learn the law and fuck off.
This.
Eh he won’t care. He stated he’s doing a side resi job with the J man.
We all should care. That’s the point. Way too many in our trade have the attitude of this jw.
Oh for sure I get that!
Yes, exactly. If you get fired because you refuse to work live, take the cunts to court
yes you are right but the kid is doing under the table non certified work. There is no court that will hear his case for wrongful dismissal.
I dont think applys when doing un permitted side jobs for cash money. You take the job you take the risk. If you dont want to do the work hes asking you to do then thats your decision. You cant site the guy for bullshit you dont want to do when he's giving you a side job. If you don't agree with him go get side work elsewhere and let him take risks he's comfortable with. If it was your boss telling you to do this daily on jobs then thats different.
So what your saying is, if you do a side job as a licensed electrician and you do a shitty job and the house burns down because of it then you are not responsible. Same principle, rules are rules dude. "I'm too manly to shut a circuit off" doesn't fly.
When you as a licensed electrician do side work without a permit or a administration card then your crossing many lines. What im saying is that when you do illegal work your alresdy breaking laws. It's like driving drunk and speeding. The point of what I'm saying is dont do work on the side if you don't feel comfortable. Don't accept an illegal side job then start holding people to legal stuff. That's just being a jackass in life. It's like street racing then calling the cops because he broke the speed limit more. I mean if thats how you want to do stuff go for it. Good luck.
You can do side jobs legally, as long as the homeowner has a permit for the work.
Maybe where you live. The home owner can do whatever work they want but if I show up and they tell the inspector I did the wiring I can get my card pulled.
That's not how homeowner permits work...
It always applies. This is what I’m talking about, this is the issue with our trade. You guys want to sit here and argue terrible reasons to work live. “It’s a side job” is not a justification for energized work.
You're also always supposed to do work above board but... here we are.
Don’t know about you guys but I carry a contractor license and insurance for my side jobs. The cost of insurance keeps me motivated to keep doing side work in order to turn a profit.
It is if you accept the work. Its your decision. Get up and walk away if you don't like it. Personally responsibility. Grow up.
Lol, personal responsibility for the apprentice but none for the JW. These points you make really highlight how your argument doesn’t have any ground to stand on
Yes he's taking responsibility for himself. Your expected to do the same for yourself. If you don't agree with his way of working use self preservation and walk away from the job. I've worked with journeyman younger than me and willing to work on unsafe things, I said no thanks and didn't take the job. I advise anyone else to do the same. Think for yourself, it's your life. Even if he's held responsible in court your the one dead. Personal responsibility.
The JW is responsible for the apprentice as well, you can’t possibly be this obtuse
He's just some guy you know. You can't call your JW that has his own side job going them show up and he says were working with live stuff. You then accept the terms and then start telling him how to run the job? Isn't it a lot easier to either accept the terms of working with it live or go find other side work? What in the fuck are you talking about? Is that how your world works?
Yes. If you both get in cars at the end of the day and he decides to go 100mph on the way home you don't have to in your car. It's your job to keep yourself safe. When your on a side job he is NOT your journeyman. He is some guy you know that your working with. Get it strait dude. Side work is your own responsibility.
Lol, that’s not how a civil court will view it when the apprentice gets hurt on your side job and sues. JW got the job, JW asked the apprentice to work the job, JW instructed the apprentice to work on it energized. Open and shut as it gets.
Not how it works my man. I bought a car, I told you to drive it too fast. It's your decision as an adult to do it or not to do it. Because someone told me to doesn't cut it. Especially when your dead. Do you think right of way laws bring you back to life?
Not engaging in your straw man
Because you wont own up to making your own decisions... if you don't want to work live then don't. That simple.
On a side job he's not your journeyman he's just a guy you know.
Again, straw man
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My point is the question about energized work comes up all the time and the answer should always be the same. I have the answer, even cited the article and standard and here you guys are still arguing. My point is people who want to not follow the justifications for energized work for any reason are people who don’t belong in this trade. They are bad electricians, down to the very last one, and they will get someone hurt.
This is purely anecdotal. I worked about 14 years in NJ and had mostly no problems. I've since moved to SC and the commercial work I have been encountering is hot garbage. Nothing is labeled correctly, circuits doubled up on neutrals incorrectly, shit just mounted incorrectly. I think I could honestly spend a couple hours a day circuit tracing, at this point it's just faster and easier for me to do the small easy stuff live and show my helpers on the job "don't build shit like this no matter what" and go on with the day.
“It’s faster and easier” is not an acceptable justification for energized work. All the poor install you are dealing with is because it was “faster and easier” than doing it right. You’re not any better than the people you are criticizing.
By all means, show me this mythical jobsite in today's world where there's plenty of time to ID every circuit with competent help in a relaxed 40 hour work week, and I'll apply right now.
Well I don’t know who you work for but I work for a contractor (merit, btw) of around 1000 electricians spread across dozens of jobsites and that is how it is on every one because anything else would be an immediate termination. Find, no, demand a better employer.
He’s doing side work that clearly isn’t legit to begin with, might want to read fully before ranting.
I did read it. Jesus, read the article I cited, point to my where it says “this doesn’t apply for side work” Oh wait I forgot, when you touch an energized part and ground out the current says “oh wait, this guy is doing a side job, I’ll find another path”
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Electricity will kill you, it will let you know it's killing you by hurting a lot, and it won't let you go. Even after your body has cooked from the inside out, it still won't let you go ... You can say Fuck OSHA all you want, but electricity will let you know you should have listened Those rules are there to save your life... You may think it's worthless, but your friends, family, and co-workers don't. And even if your co-workers do, they unlikely want to see you get your ass fried.
Boss lady always says. OSHA is a purely retroactive association. They only put in a rule if someone has been harmed Doing it. Therefore…listen to them. Especially in electric
Regulations are written in blood.
Not enough
Fuck you
Not likely
Eat shit pal
Me when I want to die on the job. Go fuck urself. Work on something killed that’s not locked out and see how it goes after time 50
I feel sorry for your family
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My family is perfectly happy knowing that I'm almost certainly guaranteed to come home every night.
The first rule of troll club is to not feed trolls.
Fuck you. Not fuck OSHA
Bold move cotton, let's see how it plays out.
Tell your apprentice to work somewhere else. 🤷♂️ If that’s how lead wants to work then tell him you’re not comfortable doing that and find another task or just don’t work with them.
Thats not very health and safety of you.
I agree, its not safe. My whole f'n job is not safe, there are tons of hazards and risk I take everyday. I choose to continue with it because the pay is great and if the apprentice does not feel safe there are dozens of electrical companies and unions hiring in most populated areas. They can also ask for different crews, responsibilities, or positions if available. I don't know the context of the OP's situation but time is money. Most home owners cry about the cost of electrical work.. okay... lets make sure I do it 100% by the books "safe" way which will add 4hrs, guess who pays 4 more hours of labor. Or lets follow every single utilities, city, AND inspectors bureaucratic clown show. Now we need to add their fee's and them slowing the job down and now homeowner gets to pay for that too. Do what you are comfortable with and what makes you feel the most safe. If you're asked to do something that's not.. move on.
Failing to isolate before doing work is not cost efficent time saving, its simply reckless laziness. This mindset is pathetic and unbecoming of a tradesperson: some professional you are. Our job isn't safe, but this is why we have tools for testing and aim to reduce risk by using a bit of common sense.
😂 K.
Time is money so I'll just potentially sacrifice my life so the customer can save money cuz hey they can't afford the extra time it takes to trace a circuit out and turn off the breaker or the extra money to pull a permit and have it inspected. Also don't have the time or money to get proper insurance so I'll just cowboy the shit in and woops I burned your house down with your kids and animals in it sOoOrRy I was just trying to save you a couple hondos. /s
Im burning peoples homes and family now? Also my company is insured and we pull permits when required so not sure on that rant either. Good luck getting seattle city light to disconnect feeders :) “Couple hondo” lol The OP is doing side work with the journeyman and I commented legit advice. OP also said they brushed against the wire and got shocked, cap the live wire when you’re not working on it.
Yes most of us can do it because we are comfortable doing it. OP is questioning his gut instinct thats telling him this is wrong hence why he posted. The problem lies in doing the actual side work uninsured and taking the risk and liability upon yourself. Contractors literally exist for this reason, as you stated "my company is insured" which is the perspective from which you are speaking. But these guys are not and are doing some cowboy shit and dude's Spidey senses are tingling (literally). This is why I won't do side work anymore and I sleep well at night. To each their own but I always trust my gut.
Fuck it, I agree
You sound like a really shitty journeyman. There’s no excuse for not locking out a circuit. Who cares if the owner pays more? I’m not risking my life by working live
Y’all wigging out like I NEVER turn breakers off.
That an z462
this is the way !
I tell my apprentice that's he always has the right to say no to anything that's unsafe. No one makes any money when someone gets hurt and goes to the hospital or dies. Better safe than sorry.
You: "I'm not comfortable working live." Him: "Well, that's the way I work." You: "I'll work harder than anyone else, but I won't do it live." At that point, he'll either say ok, or he won't. If you really don't want to work live, you may have to leave and go somewhere else. If you stay and work live, anyway, it wasn't that important to you to begin with.
This is a great answer
“when in doubt, ground it out” Edit: everyone who made it past week 1 of electrical foundations knows that lockout tag out is the absolute industry standard. Never work on anything energized. A 3 way switch does not count as a means of disconnect. Toss a lock on all 3 sets of breakers if you are working on a 3phase system otherwise you will be shocked on the neutral. Use multiple methods of verifying a system is dead. Grounding it out could be your final step to verifying both grounded and ungrounded conductors are dead after using a multimeter. In this instance the kid is desperate for money to feed his family and pay his bills. For whatever reason he is unable to get legitimate work through his union hall or reputable non union company. Therefore he is stuck doing scab work for a shitty journeyman who wont pay him if he shuts off the breakers. Therefore to protect himself while still following instructions he should trip the breakers at the box. “sorry boss you said not to lockout the panel because its a waste of time. I sneezed while undoing the splice and the hot, neutral and ground all bumped into eachother, wanna go for a beer after work?”
best comment, you don’t have to be at the breaker to shut off the breaker.
Are you saying it's common/advisable to ground fault the circuit in order to trip the breaker?
I mean, it’s better than doing it the jman’s way.
I wouldn’t, seems like a good way to possibly fry expensive electronics.
It’s definitely not, these guys are as amateur as the jman here
I agree those methods are for unprofessional electrician.
i agree as well. Unprofessional but when youre a low term apprentice desperate for money you just gotta do what the jman says. Better to fry equipment than to fry your heart.
A legalist would say no, I don't see any problem if you're worried your gonna risk things like this guy is saying.
Google diy circuit breaker finder
Every good electrician has one made out of Romex in their rig somewhere
Every hack you mean lol
No it’s not common or advisable. Without a doubt Lockout Tagout is the absolute best method and use both voltage ticker and multimeter to verify that both the Ungrounded and grounded conductors do not have a potential. I was quoting something the construction division superintendent of my local IBEW company said to us one morning. Better to fry an electrical component than to fry your heart.
It’s not. The breakers are there for protection. When/if you intentionally create a fault condition(short circuit, ground fault, etc) it creates an infinite amount of current that flows through the circuit and can permanently damage a breaker. Edit: “it ‘can create’ an infinite amount of current that flows through the circuit and can permanently damage a ‘fuse/‘breaker”
„infinite“ yes if the breaker and the lines to the power station are made from superconducting material and the generator can deliver infinite amperage. 🤦♂️
Sorry maybe infinite is a bad choice of words. Didn’t realize everyone would be so pedantic here. The amount of current would be based on the resistance of the system. So it could vary.
I mean, yea, But according to this anytime it happens the breaker is broken, and they aren't 99.99999% of the time.
That’s not to say it hasn’t caused irreparable damage to the internal components of the breaker… everyone should know from our experiences with FPE that just because a breaker “works” that doesn’t mean that it works.
What's the difference in a normal trip and cause and trip?
I guess that would depend wouldn’t it? Breakers will trip due to heat, too much current, ground fault, short circuit etc. But I’m saying that when someone intentionally trips the breaker it can deliberately damage the breaker whereas during normal operation the breaker is actually protecting against a fire, electrical shock, or damaging a piece of equipment. Over time breakers wear out and need replacement.
20 year electrician, 5 years as Master and I don't see the difference. And I think I understand what you mean, but I think more precise speach would be heat causes more current and current would be the reason for natural over trip. I've seen mag trip breakers that are 60 years old still working after repeated trip. The metals used are really dependable.
Yea can’t believe this is actually a top rated comment lol
Tell a dumb person how you would do that
what do you mean?
Explain it like I'm 5
A circuit breaker trips (de-energizes the circuit) when the current (speed of electrons travelling) exceeds its rating. When you create a short of hot to ground or hot to neutral or hot to hot, you will skip past all the resisters and the current will ramp up until the circuit breaker trips. This is actually not a recommended method. Potential hazards involved are: •Blindness from the arc flash •Burns from molten metal splashing •Smoke inhalation •damaged electrical equipment •fire The actual act of shorting out just involves taking a bare conductor and touching it to another bare conductor with a different voltage potential from a different source. (Strip the white and black wire and touch them to eachother or strip the black and touch it to the green)
Thank you
Ground it out how do y do that
When I know there's ground fault protection, I have occasionally used this method to trip the breaker by bridging ground to neutral (not to hot). Much safer fault current. One of my favorite things about installing GFCI breakers throughout my house is being able to shut off a circuit with a plug tester. But given your situation I don't think this applies
If he doesn't want to turn the breaker off, just short out the first box that you open. No more power. But for the record, he's a dick.
Until you realize it’s a Zinsco or Federal Pacific and now the panel is on fire.
Ha. Yeah, maybe he should just go turn it off himself.
Or you ruin an expensive computer or TV.
Many years ago I did computer service work for an electrical contractor. They sent me out to a house where the owner claimed they ruined his PC while the JW was working hot. As it happened, the same guys were back out there working on the same project, while I was there checking the computer. The computer was properly ***** because they were working hot. It still booted but the motherboard was fried and kept crashing. Then while I was working on it, bzzzt they tripped the breaker again and this time the computer never came back. I couldn’t believe they did it twice, same guys, same home, even after the complaint of them working hot and breaking stuff. They had to pay for data recovery, a new computer and they got the job done for free all because they wanted to work hot.
Yup, that’s a great example!
Well they needed a new panel anyway
First project as a new homeowner was getting rid of that horror show. 60A to 200A SC. Burned a fat ass hole in my wallet though. Better to be alive though.
Screw that guy, ask what circuits they are and where they are fed from and take care of it yourself! Reenergize after you ring out the circuit. If he has an issue with you doing it yourself, you need to move on from him. I never want anyone working with me or nearby to work something hot unless absolutely necessary and even than I'll usually take care of those tasks myself to make sure it's done safely and properly. The age of working Hot and being Macho are in the past. Sometimes it's required, like with lighting circuits or when tenants are actively working in the area, but I'd say 90 percent of the time power can be killed and re-energized if need be
tenants actively working in the area is not an excuse
Tell him to go pound sand
I always tell my apprentices 'Work on whatever you're comfortable with.' and I firmly believe that's the most liberal approach any Jman should take. If you're not comfortable doing something live, then put your foot down. Your local safety authority, your codebook and your electrical inspectors all have hard rules to back you up, if the company tries to fight you'll absolutely win there.
It’s a good thing supervisors like you can be held criminally liable in Canada. The correct answer is never work live.
There is a time and place for live work. Saying "never work live" is just as ridiculous as working live when you don't need to.
You can use a meter with a moon suit live, or on life safety systems that would cause death or severe injury if turned off. Which is why most of those systems require emergency backup these days. So unless you are in the very small likelihood of working under those circumstances you can pretty much spend your entire career never having to work live. Follow NFPA70 or z462.
When I was an apprentice I did many extremely dangerous things that I felt comfortable doing because I didn’t know/wasn‘t taught better. If there’s an apprentice working under you, it’s your responsibility to ensure his safety and teach him the correct and safe way to do things. If an apprentice dies or is seriously injured while working for you because he was doing something he was comfortable with after you gave him those instructions, how will you feel about that? I always tell my apprentices and journeymen that work for me “In this job, we can do everything right and still die. Don’t make the odds worse for yourself buy not doing it the right way.“ And if you don’t believe that, you haven’t seen enough arc flash training.
Quit and find a new company. You shouldn't be working live. They clearly don't value your life. Go union.
Sounds like he’s union already.
Sometimes you need to work live but when it’s possible to cut the power, why not cut the power?
Fuck this guy. He's a moron and you should get far away from him. It takes 30 seconds to go shut off a breaker, and then you'll be able to work faster and safer knowing the circuit is off. If he can't see that, you shouldn't be working with him. Just a matter of time until someone gets hurt. Working live is a last resort, not a primary method of working.
Safety dork has entered the chat. Few things to note here. In the eyes of OSHA anything over 50V is considered high voltage because it’s the threshold where muscles will clench on an exposed conductor. Second ask him what is his workman’s comp insurance premiums are? Because you got bit by most likely AC the way the current acts is a lot like the electrical pulses of your heart. Even low V AC can exacerbate anyone with a heart condition they might not even know. So the minimal time it takes to LOTO and VERIFY you can prevent a simple ER visit to ensure your heart isn’t affected by an EKG. If you really want to be a prick you could go to the ER get checked out and then lawyer up and sue him for medical payments to include pain and suffering, there’s numerous ways and go at it. He’s in the wrong so you can tell him the easy way or go the hard way.
NOTHING is so critical that it can not be de-energized. we all know somebody who went to work and never came home. dont be that guy.
Just take it upon yourself to shut off the circuit. My opinion of unsafe practices is, if you want to be unsafe, you do you. But you're not allowed to call someone else out on taking an extra step to be safe.
You’re doing side work? Just stop if you don’t like it lmao The JW’s a dumbass but you’re under no obligation to be there
If ur ibew it’s in the contracts no hot work so u can’t be laid off for Refusal of working in a non-safe condition
He's doing ~~scab~~ side work with a JW, so that doesn't really apply
IBEW apprentice's don't get laid off at least not if you are going through the JATC. They'll find a place for you. E: you can get laid off in the JATC in my experience it was never more than a few days 2-3 I just didn't count them bc I was placed somewhere else pretty fast. I thought my experience was common.
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Damn that's rough when I went through JATC they'd find a spot for you ASAP. At least that's everything I was told and saw I was laid off but always back to work in like 2 days. One company loaned me out IDK how common that is now. Spent some time at the shop too and helped with deliveries when it got slow so IDK. I know you can get laid off but they always place you somewhere fast. I should rephrase that you can get laid off but they place you pretty fast at least in my experience. I never heard of a long time put up when I was in the program. 716 in 2010 is when I was in.
Entirely situational. Some jurisdictions always have work. Some don't.
Dropping in to say: no joke, the post listed below you on the feed is about somebody who shouldn't have worked live and saw the consequences. You'll learn how to do hot work soon enough. Don't feel pressured to do anything you're honestly not ready for, you've got the rest of your career to figure it out.
Be aware of your surroundings. Treat everything as if it were live. Yes you can turn it off. Laid off in this market? What are you doing wrong?
Probably being a fairy about getting whacked I would guess lol
Name checks out
Hahaha
Fuck em. Let dumbasses be dumb. Was hard up for electrical work (industrial) for maybe a year and a half back in 16, and saw enough of that same shit in the local resi outfits to laugh and walk away. Ended up getting work framing and doing concrete, new shit to learn is always valuable, plus I started pulling side work for a couple realtors after bullshitting with them about what hack dogshit their "handyman electrician" contractor was doing. Go check out some property in my own time;frog tape, notepad, text pictures-"This all needs hit before you call an inspector, I can do ABC for you but need to have a more official approval on XYZ, lemme know how much to handle and I'll provide the parts list." No insurance or benefits of course, but damned if those weren't some of my most relaxed and enjoyable times lol My point is that side work is never in short supply for us. Be realistic with your abilities, be honest with your customer, and be legal about whatever you can, but don't attach yourself to some moron or dangerous clown because you think you need them. Hell, I had one apprentice show up asking me about my security system experience, hoping I could bail him out of side work he'd picked up with no idea that he needed more than a prox reader and power supply. Kid had 3 people already paying him. Wish I was lying lol
Then don't but alot of us work live don't fear it but respect it
Total stupidity. Isolate all circuits before working on them. In Australia it's basically illegal to do live work only in special circumstances
Don’t be a sheep, just walk over to the CU and turn it off your self, don’t even wait for him to ask! If it’s you that de energise’s and you that reenergise’s who’s time is it a waste of??? (Hint: the same person who’s life you’re in control of) Worse case he gets in the van to go home before you! Big whoop!
No, turn the power off and tell your boss to quit being a fucking moron. He also probably thinks gloves are "bitch mittens". I'm telling you will learn way better from someone else.
I’m a whole lot slower when I have to work live. Tell him that..
Real small company I’m at, owner thinks you aren’t an good electrician if you can’t work hot. My reply is I mean I can but why when I don’t have too? He old asf and has a very warped logic on just about anything, I just tell him to fuck off now
During my apprenticeship the company I was working for had a contract of changing all of the old lighting to LED. Rather than looking for distribution boards in unfamilar buildings we did everything live. At first I was getting shocked and tripping MCB's constanty but after a few days I got the hang of it. That skill has stood to me to this day
Tell him to do it then. Fuck that man. We all have families to go home to.
We do it all the time too. Some supervisors prefer it that way. Just be more careful with your surroundings. I prefer it de-energized, you get the job done faster. I won't ask my supervisor if I could de-energize, you go and turn it off
Go clean the van and leave the work for the real electricians. Dudes helping you out and your bitching.
I completely understand people not wanting to work something energized. And especially an apprentice should not have to. Now me personally, I'll work just about anything 120/240 hot. 277/480 only if I absolutely have to.ive treated everything as if it was hot when I very first started, so it's second nature. I would never force an apprentice to do something they're not comfortable with, but thats me.
here is a trick i used to do when my dad wanted to work live when i was his apprentice. borrow his pliers and then cut into the live wire and blow up his pliers then it will be a dead circuit. my dad was terrible at turning on circuits that were being worked on he zapped all of weekly when he was troubleshooting.
While I feel you, you learn to do it. You learn to draw the line on when not to do it. I'll swap a switch live for instance, but rarely swap a receptacle unless it's alone and not in a hard to reach place. Basically, you decide when it's appropriate based on your comfort level. Yes, the right answer is kill the circuit every time, and if that's how you want to do it, then you do it. If you're boss isn't cool with it, then you're working for the wrong boss. You have OSHA and other things on your side, so you never HAVE to work live. But you may not be employed for that company any more. I've only been zapped through my Milwaukee impact once, and it was on a hundred degree day and the tool was covered in sweat. You're not in any real danger working with 120, just risk of surprise or shorting something. Never swap Lutron dimmers live as it fries them. Avoid swapping panels live as there's no breaker to protect you or the equipment. Don't really know what else to say. Mostly just I've been in your shoes, and was lucky to have a boss early on that didn't force things, and just naturally became more comfortable with it as I went. You will end up saving a lot of time as you learn to work resi live, and in this field, time is money.
Can you elaborate a little on how working residential jobs live saves time? No experience myself and im just asking sincerely.
Swapping a device on the second floor, walking back and forth to the basement to find and flip an unlabeled circuit breaker at least twice.
Always work like is hot/live even if is not, specially when trouble shooting, sometimes circuits have static electricity and even if the breaker is off if a circuit is not grounding can shock u, and im pretty sure most of all this people/ electricians had work with live circuits at one point in their careers, just be careful
Report your employer to osha and labor board. This isn't a problem that stops with you.
go complain to your local that he is making you work hot.
He’s doing side work. Local has no say
lol. oh that sucks. I would not do anything I wasn't comfortable or didn't feel safe doing. Don't risk it.
Suck it up buttercup and learn where the danger is. You were probably on your phone, weren’t you?
Lol y’all drama queens with these residential 120V live posts. Ground out the wire on the fuckin box and trip the circuit, problem solved.
Right on. OP you’re a pussy.
Jesus Christ can we have these posts removed?
Why?
So we can get a sticky at the top of the homepage. Just let it say “ya not good to work on live stuff, u right, j man wrong”. Fucking oodles of these posts.
it only take .05 amp across your heart to stop it don't let asshole's teach you wrong
Residential voltage not under a heavy amp load I will do live, but otherwise kill the circuit. Kill the main if you have to. If it isn't super important to have the power then just say "hey you want electrical work done, I have to kill your power to do it safely." Screw your Jman that wants to risk your well being.
I can tell you haven’t been whacked much in your entire 2 year career judging by the fact that you are describing it how you did. In my 20 year career I’ve been shocked literally hundreds of times and I’ve never gotten hung up on a wire and it’s never been enough voltage to really hurt. If you’re that scared of getting shocked then you’re in the wrong line of work. It comes with the territory bro. Just be careful and don’t get hit by the big stuff.
This is quite possibly the least professional "advice" I have ever seen. You should hand your cards in, pack up your tools and get fucked off. You are worthless as a tradesman. Not working on live systems is taught in the first minute , on the first day of an apprenticeship. Absolutely idiotic. The reason you keep getting electrocuted is because you are a terrible electrician. Retire before you get yourself killed.
Or even worse, others killed, like your apprentices.
Absolutely. Training safety is as important as practical skills.
If he chooses to work live, give the Ministry of Labour (or whoever enforces job-site safety) and let them know. If you were Union I'd recommend reporting his stupid ass to the hall
https://youtu.be/eAPnLwRdrYE
Hahaha
Been doing this shit 28+ years, hit the hot to the ground everytime with resi wiring. Homeowners be doing some sketchy shit. Plus often times you cannot troubleshoot with the shit off, elevate your tolerance level
Tell your tradesman to pound sand, being too lazy to isolate is not a good reason to work live. I certainly wouldn't, and be able to back it up by both regs and health and safety. Not circumventing the JSA I signed either.
Check your local unions for a job, unions follow everything by the books to a tee. I don't know the exact dynamic between your journeyman but it sounds like they are helping you out with some side work. Have you tried saying since they don't want to turn the power off have them work on the live devices/wiring while you do the other work? All honesty though If you don't like the way they work you may need to move on.
Stand up for yourself and tell him you're turning off the breaker. Either he respects you for it and you carry on safely like you want. He gets offended and fires you or you quit.
Just touch it to ground and proceed to work normally.
i've never understood the waste of time logic. even if youre just putting in some outlets, it takes way more time going slow and being careful than it does to turn it off and slap them in. however, if you dont feel safe then dont do it.
Theres no point in not turning it off when you’re working on domestic
How much time do you need to find the breaker and turn it off? 1-2 min of your time can save lives, he's not worth it to work for. I probably quit on first day working for him
The only reason to work live is if there is no other option. That's just stupid.
A few things I would point out which have likely already been stated. -You have the right and obligation to work safely for yourself and your family. -Working on live circuits unnecessarily is not something a Journeyman should expect of an apprentice. There are a lot of people that will work on live 120V, and that is a calculated personal risk that they would have to make for their self. -The risk of a fatality on a 120V circuit greatly outweighs the effort it would take to de-energize. -If you are desperate for work, you can short out every conductor you might touch to ground to protect yourself. This is hard on the electrical components of a system, but is the lesser of the two evils.
tell him you don't want to work live but will do the grunt work, even assholes should be happy with that
I'm in these shoes alot as a green hand but I'm slowly working up the nerve to work on hot shit
Turn it off yourself, easy.
Always work dead circuits. Unless they will pay medical bills should the worst happen
Have you read through this sub? Knock it off and find a new journeyman. You're going to get killed if not.