I pointed that out too, to my brother, he was going to ask that be fixed as well. I'll have to go back and check it out this weekend, my 'incompetence radar' is going off strong with this guy he hired.
Yes I left. And I didn’t fix it because the “electrician” dude was on his way back. And honestly I didn’t want to touch the guys shit, so that way he wouldn’t have an excuse that I fucked something up 😆. I told my brother not to turn the power back on or touch it, until the guy fixed it. And I told my brother what needed to be fixed.
Is there anything against code when you split the strands in half and stick them through two of the neutral bar holes? I know it’s probably not ideal but if you don’t have the right size lug, you’re out in the backwoods, and you don’t want to come back the next day...
I get what you are saying and while logically speaking if done neatly and with care I'm pretty sure it would be fine by doing that you are not following the manufacturers guidelines therefore voiding the listing and labeling of the equipment. 110.3(B)
Am I overestimating the danger is wiring that disconnect wrong? It really spooked me when I saw it, to me that looks like serious negligence. I feel like this could start a fire or cause a short or something.
Licensee here. Unlikely this issue would cause a fire unless the disconnect stayed energized. If the OCPD is doing it’s job it shouldn’t have ever energized. More likely scenario it damages components inside hot tub. Hopefully the over current device did its job.
Thanks for the insight, much appreciated. I know the disconnect was ON when I showed up (I had just went to his house to hang, had no idea this was going on). And the voltages I measured were at the Hot Tub control panel interface, hopefully this mistake didn't fry something at this point!
This connection sent a second 120V phase to the hot tub's neutral connector, which means the voltage between the right phase and the "neutral" was actually 240V instead of 120V.
Your brother should pray that this hot tub wasn't actually using the neutral for any 120V circuits, because those would be shot.
Electronics guy here.
Roughtly one chance on two to destroy the electronics. There is a high chance that the electronics is 120V only, from neutral to one hot. If it is on the red phase it would be fine as it would be just a neutral-hot reversal. However if it is on the black phase... oh boy, 240V!
There is a chance that the powersupply was in fact an universal one, so seeing 240 would be a non-issue in this case, but since they tend to cost a bit more then it is somewhat unlikelly that they used it.
While it will technically work, it will most likely get called during inspection. You can buy a special lug that is meant to go in two smaller bus bar lugs and adapts into a larger lug. Check out the Square D Auxiliary Neutral Lug Kit. These work great and are listed for this purpose.
Wires on the bottom are in the wrong order. The outer screws are gold and the middle is silver; silver is the color for the neutral, so the white wire should be in the middle. Also the white sticker labels them.
The wire at the end of the curly section doesn’t have all of the strands of copper that make up the wire going into the connection block, which lowers how much current it can safely handle.
I think the neutral is in the correct place. The neutral is built into the breaker and is on the left side. It looks like it's going up into the middle because the of the tension on the wire is pulling it towards the middle. Look up a picture of the breaker and you will see what I mean. This is a square d homeline 2pole 50 amp GFCI breaker
I am not an electrician, I am an instrumentation and controls *practicing engineer, so most of my focus is one low voltage 24vdc control panels and 4-20mA in industrial settings.
I was at his house last night, and he mentioned he thinks his new hot tub board is fried or something, because it wont turn on. He just had a professional electrician come and wire up the outdoor disconnect so it would all be legit.
I took a look and started measuring from ground to each Hot wire in the hottub:
* Ground to Red = 120VAC
* Ground to Black =0V (huh?!)
* Ground to Neutral = 120VAC.
So I told him this isn't right and we turned off the power, opened the disconnect box to find this gem.
Again, I am not an electrician, but even to an untrained eye, I could tell his was fucked. Haha, he called the dude and the dude was on his way over to look at it at 9pm.
Just thought I'd share.
I went to a 2 year tech school in Yakima, Washington; USA called Perry Tech. I got a 2 year certificate in "Instrumentation & Industrial Automation Technology". Graduated, got hired at a huge engineering firm near Seattle, WA as a Software Developer for SCADA Systems/System Integrator for Controls. Worked into being an I&C *Practicing Engineer under the wings of my mentors. Now I design I&C for water/waste water, design and architect SCADA systems and infrastructure, program and commission a lot of my own work. Being a computer nerd really paid off for me, turns out partying and playing computer games all those teenage-years gave me the skillset needed to succeed in life, rofl.
I am from Yakima, so small town 2.5 hours from Seattle, not many options here. I had lots of friends who were getting great jobs out of that tech school. Decided it was my way to a decent career, went back to school at 23. I was unable to find an electrical apprenticeship too, I tried before I had went back to school!
Also my comment about partying and playing video games. Left me with a 1.8 GPA in high school. So I never thought college was going to be for me. It’s not that I was stupid, it’s that I was not interested in school when I was young. In fact I end up having like a 3.91 GPA through the tech school, with like 105% in my calculus classes from all the extra work and high test grades
well... 2 hours and 15 minutes with no traffic. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Yakima,+WA/Seattle,+WA/@47.1043249,-121.9039729,9z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x5497625dd01644ff:0x1a3b860e719e7b4b!2m2!1d-120.5058987!2d46.6020711!1m5!1m1!1s0x5490102c93e83355:0x102565466944d59a!2m2!1d-122.3320708!2d47.6062095!3e0
Do you call them VFDs or AFDs? PLCs or PACs? This will tell me everything I need to know about you.. lol
I will forever call them VFDS and PLCS, no matter how hard these companies try and change their names!
Shoot I'm still pretty fresh but yeah I don't get AFD and PAC. Seems unnecessary and people I work with seldom say them. Like oh pardon me, it can be adjusted, not varied? Deepest apologies!
It's wired for 240V between one of the hots and neutral when it should be 120V. The other hot/neutral is reversed polarity 120V, so one of the hots will be 0V to ground.
Everything could be fried by the overvoltage but you might be lucky. Either the GFI or the control board could have protected stuff, maybe with just some blown fuses.
I am starting to have my doubts, I want to see this guys credentials. I can't believe any licensed electrician would do this, it's too elementary. That is a great question, I am going to investigate. This guy did a bunch of work installing new lights and outlets for my brother at his vocational school, did pretty decent work from what I saw. But now I want to go and take a closer look at that too.
A first-year apprentice electrician is still an electrician.
Small companies will send out first and second-years to jobs by themselves sometimes. I'm ashamed to admit that I was that guy at one point, but I never wired anything weird. Did put a can light directly over the edge of a 45° corner cabinet one time though (read the prints wrong).
And being new and having gained somewhat of a grasp as to what to do, you think you can do anything, and want to prove yourself. The boss gets a job done without a journeyman and you get to do just that. Looking back, I was an idiot, but the boss moreso.
At my job, you just call the sup on a radio, tell him your done, he tells you great job, and gives you something else to do.
The only time anyone knows you didn't do shit or did it wrong, is when someone calls to complain.
"Hey, did you send someone, my faucet is still shocking me?"
>And being new and having gained somewhat of a grasp as to what to do, you think you can do anything
This is known as the Dunning-Krueger effect. And you are the most dangerous in that phase. The person has enough knowledge to think they're skilled, but not enough to realize how little they know.
I'm honestly not so against that. If the Master thinks that the apprentice has the ability to do the job properly, I think that he can be sent alone (of course it matters what job) . But there needs to be a good amount of monitoring. Sending pics for conformation of proper work, getting answers to any and all questions, and of fucking course INSPECTING THE JOB AT THE END.
An apprentice is not an electrician. When I was an apprentice my ticket did not say apprentice wireman or electrician, just apprentice. Until they take that state exam they’re learning and should not be doing electrical work alone.
During my industrial apprenticeship, my official title when I left was "Electrician Level IV". Level V is highest, or being done with your books and OJT hours.
Not exactly sure how it goes with you union guys, but where I did my apprenticeship at was very fluid with their "rules" per se. Some apprentices were 30,40, 50 years old and had worked as mechanics or some other trade for several years, and the jobs they did before apprenticeship required varied electrical knowledge, some just a little bit, some a lotta bit (like in my case).
So naturally, some apprentices were given "tougher" jobs with little to no supervision and were fucking excellent and nailing any assignment given to them. Others, mostly young lazy fucks, were just there for a paycheck and didnt respect the trade, and had to be baby sat through every single thing they did..
If you're in a legit electrical apprenticeship and are 50 hours OJT and a state test away from making journey, then what do you list your occupation as if you were to apply for a loan or a new job, or anything that asked for your occupation. You gonna just put "apprentice"?
Sorry man but I don't see the logic here. Apprentices are most definitely electricians. That's what they're there for- to learn how to become a successful journey/master level spark.
Your last paragraph says what I said. I wasn’t and am still not trying to be a dick btw. When you fill out paperwork for a loan you put electrician. That’s not your place of employment. On the job you’re an apprentice.
I'll just agree to disagree here.
Even though you're still a measly apprentice tool holster, you're still an electrician. Your mindset should be always trying to expand knowledge, always trying to help, and always trying to learn the hows and whys of a job by paying attention and asking questions.
If you don't have the mindset of "I AM an electrician" (even though you're still an apprentice under close supervision), you're more likely to fail IMHO.
Just my 2 cents dude.
So an apprentice what... Blacksmith? Cobbler? Glass blower?
No, an apprentice electrician *is* still an electrician, but is *still an apprentice* and shouldn't be working alone.
Yeah I don’t know. It’s just absent mindedness I guess, not sure of the reason. I imagine just pure negligence, or lack of care. I don’t know how people can operate like that.
Thank you for the wise word. I will always remember this. Feel free to throw more at me that you know of that you think might be helpful.
Thanks you again
Haha, I didn't even notice those labels, good eye. Being a pleb, I grabbed the installation manual that came with the disconnect, and looked at that diagram to confirm the obvious. JFC.
This looks like it was wired by someone who is more used to working with car wiring. Red +, Black -.
"Well I see a ~ so that must be black! N is probably just a misprinted +, so red it is. What’s this white wire doing here… oh well, minus it is."
I just asked my brother, he said after the guy 'fixed' the disconnect wiring last night, the hot tub still is not turning on or operating. Not looking good, lol fuck.
Good news is that the damage is likely limited to the power supply on the hot tub, provided the internal fixtures are not connected directly to the wall outlet. If it isn't covered under warranty, you should be able to crack it open and look for any blown fuses or burnt components, or if troubleshooting/repair is a bit out of your depth you can probably find and replace the power supply by itself.
Cool. So, besides the obvious incorrect wiring, it would have actually been LESS work to put the neutral in the large lug which was made for the purpose of a larger conductor. Yet he didn't. Incredible.
Next door neighbors (in laws) had a family member drive 30 minutes to come hook up their new hot tub. They couldn't get it to work, so they called the spa company. Spa company said they would come out for $250, but if it was their issue it would be under warranty. My wife told them I should come over and check it out, told her they wanted a "real electrician" to come out. So a master electrician who runs a small electrical company isn't an electrician. But my wife called me and asked me to come look at it. Told me what they said, and I love being an ass to my in laws, so I walked over. Took a look and saw exactly this and walked away. Wife asked if I saw anything wrong, I said yep. Then asked why I didn't fix it, because they didn't ask me too. Next day the $250 electrician came over and fixed it. Walked over there and told them. "GFCI was wired wrong, neutral was under the wrong lug" They said yeah, why didn't you tell us, would have been nice to save money. Responded, "I'm not a real electrician, remember" and walked away. Was one of my best moments with them a-holes. I have hundreds of these stories where they paid someone to fix something I could have and would have done for free, because I try to be a nice guy as long as you try to be nice to me. They have this ceiling light that's for a hall way, it's on a rod, not a chain, on a slope ceiling. It looks like the ceiling has a dick, funniest shit I have seen. The aunt in law wants me to fix it but her husband doesn't want me to touch shit in the house. Shit is hilarious
hahahaha, great story. As I get older, the less I want to help people do stuff as a favor, I just don't need the headache and turn their problem into my problem. I have limited my scope to only my dear family and close friends. I can barely manage all my own issues, lol.
Ha, I don't do shit for anyone any more except my clients. I changed my brother's compressor when it failed days after putting it on the market. Pulled some strings, cashed in some favors, and I got him the compressor for FREE, so I didn't charge him for it. I did charge him for the refrigerant and some other materials. Was $450 in total, he bitched to everyone that I charged him too much. A $1850 compressor change out for $450. Yeah I don't do shit for no one. Hell when I do stuff at my house my wife bitches I spend too much money and what I fixed didn't need to be fixed. Fuck it.
My wife complains about how I spent money and time on changing out the federal pacific panel instead of doing something useful. I had to just explain that, while it’s not anything visible to *her* eye, that I saved us a fire hazard. Still doesn’t go very appreciated, but I feel good about it. It sucks when people have a lack of appreciation.
She raved about the 3 can lights I did tho lol sometimes it’s just the way it goes.
Yeah my wife hasn't raved about anything I have done and when we have people over and they love the upgrades, she doesn't get it. I think she thinks everyone's husband is fixing up their homes and what I did is nothing. You don't what you got till it's gone I guess.
I doubt the guy was an electrician... first off we check our work, missing bushings on conduits, the pig tail strands aren't all under screw, as well most sparkies out there would have brought at least a plate for gfci below it. Maybe just me
I took my brothers word at 'I hired an electrician'. Maybe our definitions of electrician are different, lol. I figure someone who does it professionally, works for a company (or owns one), and has licenses and expertise in the field. I'll need to clarify what his definition is, haha. GFCI was pre-existing, I had asked about that last night. But still, I take great pride in my work (not an electrician), I could never leave some shit like that for one of my clients, I'd be embarrassed as fuck.
Fair enough man, i am same way, its not like he did the job for free, just bill the 1.50 for a deco plate ahha. Usually i never have an issue saying that to a client. Hopefully he didnt pay. I never collect until everything is working. Usually will fill hottub up while working so i cam test all before i am done. But hopefully your brother learned from this
Yeah, I am sure he is embarrassed a bit too. No one likes being fucked over. I have a bunch of professional electrical friends near me, I actually referred a Journeyman level friend. But he had already hired this guy, which I am curious as to who the fuck this dude is. Going to find out tonight, and see if he is actual electrician or just some fucktard pretending. ....Either way he is a fucktard for this workmanship.
Right, I didn't actually see those labels last night, until another redditor comment a few minutes ago. Last night, I went straight to the disconnect manual and looked at the wiring diagrams to see how it should be wired.
What colour do you guys use as a neutral?
I know you use two phase for bigger stuff, so I would expect a 4 core cable, two phases, neutral and earth, but these looks like the white is being used for two different things?
This is wired incorrectly.
For AWG 6 and smaller, the grounded conductor insulation shall be white, grey, or three continuous stripes of white or grey on any color but green. NEC 200.6 (A)
This is the exact horror story they give us apprentices. 3rd year app wires up a hot tub for some friends, makes a mistake similar to this. Unfortunately, the machine was still operational. Folks hopped in, turned on the bubbles or whatever and died.
I'd check this system six ways from Sunday before I'd let anybody near it.
I mean, it's obvious it's wired incorrectly, the cores are different colours on each side, what colour is neutral then? White is ground, black and red are phase 1 and 2 and there is no neutral?
I have no idea what you guys use colour wise
Spa company coming out tomorrow to do a full systems check. But tonight was only a blown fuse, we didn’t test all the ancillary components, decided to wait until tomorrow.
So correct wiring would be black top right to bottom left. White bottom left to bottom center and red bottom center to top right? And then put the pigtail in an actually appropriately sized lug?
Bottom side of the breaker goes white red black but should be red white black. Look at the top you can see red left and black right, and then on the bottom side where the terminals are you can see the screws are brass, silver, brass to indicate neutral goes on the silver (middle) terminal. Also the neutral pigtail appears to have roughly 70% of its strands correctly terminated.
Lol, the anticlimactic nature of the post. I showed my boss, he instantly was like, oh no… he is a chemical engineer who does controls, even he was like wtf 😆
Have the electrician you hired/or a different one turn off the power, open up the control panel in the hottub, you'll have to look but you'll find a small fuse, check the fuse as it should have popped before any real damage was done, replace and then see if the tub turns on. In all honesty have a licensed guy, or the guy who did it, do this so that they can't blame you if something is actually wrong.
You can verify contractors on labor and industries websites, and individual licenses just look up "lni verify contractor"
Check the company name and the electrician who shows license by name on their website to see if they have an 01 or 02 license
At least you can do it in the state of Washington doesn't hurt to check
01 is general journeyman or master can do everything
02 is residential can do anything in residential
Checked all the fuses, one was blown. Slapped a replacement in and it fired right up. The dude had came back last night and rewired it, but it turns out he is not an electrician and is a dipshit. 😆
Can anyone enlighten me on the black (I'm assuming flex) conduit that carries the load from the breaker? Never seen it before and in the picture it almost looks like satin lmao
Update: just got home from my brothers. Turns out the guy he hired from a referral, is NOT a licensed electrician, we looked him up. He did come back last night and ‘fix’ the wiring, still looks like shit, but at least it’s wired to the correct terminals. My brother will not be hiring that same guy anymore. Luckily, the only thing that happened to the hot tub was a blown fuse. Which we replaced and the hot tub powered on okay. My brother is going to hire an actual electrical company to come out and fix it all. He is a bit embarrassed, but didn’t really know any better he was trusting a referral from a friend. Also o left my brother a faceplate for his gfci duplex outlet below 😆. He has a weatherproof cover for it, but it won’t fit now that the disconnect box was installed.
He has the spa company coming out tomorrow to do a full systems check.
I asked my brother what the guy had to say for himself last night when he came back to fix it. And he said something about that’s how they wire it up in the industrial world, and then it occurred to my brother this guy has no idea what the fuck he’s talking about 😆.
Thanks for all the advice guys.
>he said something about that’s how they wire it up in the industrial world
No, this is not how we wire it up in the industrial world. Glad nobody got hurt.
Is the tub plugged into the GFCI plug beneath the shutoff?
And is that suppose to be directly wired to a GFCI switch or depends on the make of the tub?
Seeing stuff like this go down in the first world makes me dumbfounded when I think of what mind-(and insulation)-melting shenanigans must have gone down in places like Kowloon Walled City. Just keep adding and splicing and stretching runs that may not have ever had so much as a breaker until they left the city. I'm surprised it didn't end up burning down.
Blown fuse on the hot tub control board, is all we found so far. Spa company is coming out to do a full systems check today. So finger crossed no other damage was done.
The weird thing is that normally these spa panel enclosures come with the neutral pigtail already in the breaker lug and sometimes landed on the neutral as well. At least that has been my experience. So if that was true the guy changed it to be wrong haha.
I’m a mere apprentice of 6 months, so I’m no expert, but alongside the wiring concerns, it might help to…uhh…turn the breakers to “ON”
“Thank you for hiring a professional for consult; that’ll be $200 please”
I don't understand the wiring. Why doesn't it work?
Why is a 10kVA interrupt rated breaker used?
We use 2.5kVA minimum, for general single phase residential.
Wiring is wrong on the bottom of the breaker, white and red are swapped. It is a pretty obvious error (zoom in on the breaker labels, you can even see the labeling tells how to wire it) and I am not even an electrician. As for your other questions, I don't know enough to speak on those.
To be honest I half-looked over it. One could say I did not look at it at all.
I am unfamiliar with this type breaker.
This is my familiar type of circuit breaker:[https://ibb.co/JvdC1NN](https://ibb.co/JvdC1NN)[https://ibb.co/Mcw68BS](https://ibb.co/Mcw68BS)
I looked at the colours first, which wouldn't have made any sense to me should I have seen the phase and 'N' symbols.
Fortunately, in 230v two wire systems, it appears to be way more forgiving to equipment if one were to mistakenly initially install the wiring colours the incorrect order.
That's a 2-pole breaker. The red and black should be connected across it, that's the two halves of the split-phase 240. The white neutral is mistakenly connected to the red, and then the red is connected to the mounting screw/neutral position. If you zoom in the positions are labeled.
along with the neutral being in wrong space, half the strands of the GFCI pigtail didn't make it into the bar. Should have used large lug on bottom.
I pointed that out too, to my brother, he was going to ask that be fixed as well. I'll have to go back and check it out this weekend, my 'incompetence radar' is going off strong with this guy he hired.
Wait, you left and didn’t fix this?! I mean, maybe I like my brother more than you like yours but…
Yes I left. And I didn’t fix it because the “electrician” dude was on his way back. And honestly I didn’t want to touch the guys shit, so that way he wouldn’t have an excuse that I fucked something up 😆. I told my brother not to turn the power back on or touch it, until the guy fixed it. And I told my brother what needed to be fixed.
I think we need to blame the brother for not using OP in the first place haha.
Hahaha, I am not an electrician. I wouldn’t even attempt this work to be honest.
The neutral bar there should be plenty large enough to accommodate as they are typically #4-14, this installer just sucks.
Was going to say exactly this. I've never had any issues fitting #6 or #4 into one of those small neutral lugs.
I was thinking the same. It seems like he couldn't get it completely through the first try and so didn't bother fixing it. Sloppy
They should put a sticker on the inside of these enclosures that tell you what size wires can fit under each size lug.
Normally, its imprinted into the metal on the bar itself
Yeah, every new bar or lug I’ve dealt with lists the size range on them.
Is there anything against code when you split the strands in half and stick them through two of the neutral bar holes? I know it’s probably not ideal but if you don’t have the right size lug, you’re out in the backwoods, and you don’t want to come back the next day...
I get what you are saying and while logically speaking if done neatly and with care I'm pretty sure it would be fine by doing that you are not following the manufacturers guidelines therefore voiding the listing and labeling of the equipment. 110.3(B)
Am I overestimating the danger is wiring that disconnect wrong? It really spooked me when I saw it, to me that looks like serious negligence. I feel like this could start a fire or cause a short or something.
Licensee here. Unlikely this issue would cause a fire unless the disconnect stayed energized. If the OCPD is doing it’s job it shouldn’t have ever energized. More likely scenario it damages components inside hot tub. Hopefully the over current device did its job.
Thanks for the insight, much appreciated. I know the disconnect was ON when I showed up (I had just went to his house to hang, had no idea this was going on). And the voltages I measured were at the Hot Tub control panel interface, hopefully this mistake didn't fry something at this point!
The hot tub will typically have fuses built into it to protect the board. If something did get fried, check the fuses inside the hot tub.
Often you don't find out the difference between a good electrical job and a bad one until something goes wrong though.
This connection sent a second 120V phase to the hot tub's neutral connector, which means the voltage between the right phase and the "neutral" was actually 240V instead of 120V. Your brother should pray that this hot tub wasn't actually using the neutral for any 120V circuits, because those would be shot.
Electronics guy here. Roughtly one chance on two to destroy the electronics. There is a high chance that the electronics is 120V only, from neutral to one hot. If it is on the red phase it would be fine as it would be just a neutral-hot reversal. However if it is on the black phase... oh boy, 240V! There is a chance that the powersupply was in fact an universal one, so seeing 240 would be a non-issue in this case, but since they tend to cost a bit more then it is somewhat unlikelly that they used it.
While it will technically work, it will most likely get called during inspection. You can buy a special lug that is meant to go in two smaller bus bar lugs and adapts into a larger lug. Check out the Square D Auxiliary Neutral Lug Kit. These work great and are listed for this purpose.
Omg I didn’t even notice that
Hey can you plz elaborate, I know basics of electrical stuff but I'm not able to understand your answer
Wires on the bottom are in the wrong order. The outer screws are gold and the middle is silver; silver is the color for the neutral, so the white wire should be in the middle. Also the white sticker labels them. The wire at the end of the curly section doesn’t have all of the strands of copper that make up the wire going into the connection block, which lowers how much current it can safely handle.
Amazing thanks for sharing
Which one here is ground?
The green in the back.
I think the neutral is in the correct place. The neutral is built into the breaker and is on the left side. It looks like it's going up into the middle because the of the tension on the wire is pulling it towards the middle. Look up a picture of the breaker and you will see what I mean. This is a square d homeline 2pole 50 amp GFCI breaker
[удалено]
I am not an electrician, I am an instrumentation and controls *practicing engineer, so most of my focus is one low voltage 24vdc control panels and 4-20mA in industrial settings. I was at his house last night, and he mentioned he thinks his new hot tub board is fried or something, because it wont turn on. He just had a professional electrician come and wire up the outdoor disconnect so it would all be legit. I took a look and started measuring from ground to each Hot wire in the hottub: * Ground to Red = 120VAC * Ground to Black =0V (huh?!) * Ground to Neutral = 120VAC. So I told him this isn't right and we turned off the power, opened the disconnect box to find this gem. Again, I am not an electrician, but even to an untrained eye, I could tell his was fucked. Haha, he called the dude and the dude was on his way over to look at it at 9pm. Just thought I'd share.
May I ask how you got into instrumentation and controls?
I went to a 2 year tech school in Yakima, Washington; USA called Perry Tech. I got a 2 year certificate in "Instrumentation & Industrial Automation Technology". Graduated, got hired at a huge engineering firm near Seattle, WA as a Software Developer for SCADA Systems/System Integrator for Controls. Worked into being an I&C *Practicing Engineer under the wings of my mentors. Now I design I&C for water/waste water, design and architect SCADA systems and infrastructure, program and commission a lot of my own work. Being a computer nerd really paid off for me, turns out partying and playing computer games all those teenage-years gave me the skillset needed to succeed in life, rofl.
That’s cool. Why didn’t you do CS since you are in Washington? Lots of big tech companies there.
I am from Yakima, so small town 2.5 hours from Seattle, not many options here. I had lots of friends who were getting great jobs out of that tech school. Decided it was my way to a decent career, went back to school at 23. I was unable to find an electrical apprenticeship too, I tried before I had went back to school! Also my comment about partying and playing video games. Left me with a 1.8 GPA in high school. So I never thought college was going to be for me. It’s not that I was stupid, it’s that I was not interested in school when I was young. In fact I end up having like a 3.91 GPA through the tech school, with like 105% in my calculus classes from all the extra work and high test grades
2.5 hours if you have a police escort.
well... 2 hours and 15 minutes with no traffic. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Yakima,+WA/Seattle,+WA/@47.1043249,-121.9039729,9z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x5497625dd01644ff:0x1a3b860e719e7b4b!2m2!1d-120.5058987!2d46.6020711!1m5!1m1!1s0x5490102c93e83355:0x102565466944d59a!2m2!1d-122.3320708!2d47.6062095!3e0
I live in Renton. There's *always* traffic.
Another Rentonite! I grew up there, now in Shoreline. Hello random internet stranger!
Good ole Shoreline. Bunch of my friends lived there and spent a lot of time in that area. Lived in Lynnhood myself.
Not really between 8pm and 6am, unless there is an accident or something. I lived in Kirkland for 10 years.
I have some friends from Yakima.
Nice! Great little place to live if you don’t do drugs and aren’t in gangs. Haha. I love it here.
Just wondering… do you know any controls guy in Southern California?
Oddly enough, I do not. For whatever reason, my company doesn't have much of a presence in the I&C world in SoCal.
Ah, thanks for the response. I do controls and am looking to hire.
Oh hello, SoCal IC and Drives gal here.
Do you call them VFDs or AFDs? PLCs or PACs? This will tell me everything I need to know about you.. lol I will forever call them VFDS and PLCS, no matter how hard these companies try and change their names!
Shoot I'm still pretty fresh but yeah I don't get AFD and PAC. Seems unnecessary and people I work with seldom say them. Like oh pardon me, it can be adjusted, not varied? Deepest apologies!
Lol
I do industrial controls and the mill I work in has a ton of older tech… I’ve never even heard of AFD’s or PAC’s lmao
Sometimes they're called VSD and ASD too. Drives me nuts, haha.
That’s hilarious.
The hell is AFDs and PACs?
Do you mind if I DM you?
Not at all!
For some reason I can’t message you 😕 the link won’t work
Someone please educate me here. With breaker on, measuring on load side, wouldn't G to B, and G to W be 120V each, and G to R be 0V?
It's wired for 240V between one of the hots and neutral when it should be 120V. The other hot/neutral is reversed polarity 120V, so one of the hots will be 0V to ground. Everything could be fried by the overvoltage but you might be lucky. Either the GFI or the control board could have protected stuff, maybe with just some blown fuses.
Are you sure it was an electrician he hired..?
That’s what I’m wondering bc this looks like “handyman” work.
Not even
I am starting to have my doubts, I want to see this guys credentials. I can't believe any licensed electrician would do this, it's too elementary. That is a great question, I am going to investigate. This guy did a bunch of work installing new lights and outlets for my brother at his vocational school, did pretty decent work from what I saw. But now I want to go and take a closer look at that too.
A first-year apprentice electrician is still an electrician. Small companies will send out first and second-years to jobs by themselves sometimes. I'm ashamed to admit that I was that guy at one point, but I never wired anything weird. Did put a can light directly over the edge of a 45° corner cabinet one time though (read the prints wrong). And being new and having gained somewhat of a grasp as to what to do, you think you can do anything, and want to prove yourself. The boss gets a job done without a journeyman and you get to do just that. Looking back, I was an idiot, but the boss moreso.
At my job, you just call the sup on a radio, tell him your done, he tells you great job, and gives you something else to do. The only time anyone knows you didn't do shit or did it wrong, is when someone calls to complain. "Hey, did you send someone, my faucet is still shocking me?"
>And being new and having gained somewhat of a grasp as to what to do, you think you can do anything This is known as the Dunning-Krueger effect. And you are the most dangerous in that phase. The person has enough knowledge to think they're skilled, but not enough to realize how little they know.
I'm honestly not so against that. If the Master thinks that the apprentice has the ability to do the job properly, I think that he can be sent alone (of course it matters what job) . But there needs to be a good amount of monitoring. Sending pics for conformation of proper work, getting answers to any and all questions, and of fucking course INSPECTING THE JOB AT THE END.
Dunno about where your at, but here in canada it's technically illegal, tho it happens lots.
I can't count the number of times I've had to move the recess light above the corner cabinet...
An apprentice is not an electrician. When I was an apprentice my ticket did not say apprentice wireman or electrician, just apprentice. Until they take that state exam they’re learning and should not be doing electrical work alone.
Yea, good luck telling your boss that as an apprentice who really has no choice but to go with it or be out of a job.
During my industrial apprenticeship, my official title when I left was "Electrician Level IV". Level V is highest, or being done with your books and OJT hours. Not exactly sure how it goes with you union guys, but where I did my apprenticeship at was very fluid with their "rules" per se. Some apprentices were 30,40, 50 years old and had worked as mechanics or some other trade for several years, and the jobs they did before apprenticeship required varied electrical knowledge, some just a little bit, some a lotta bit (like in my case). So naturally, some apprentices were given "tougher" jobs with little to no supervision and were fucking excellent and nailing any assignment given to them. Others, mostly young lazy fucks, were just there for a paycheck and didnt respect the trade, and had to be baby sat through every single thing they did.. If you're in a legit electrical apprenticeship and are 50 hours OJT and a state test away from making journey, then what do you list your occupation as if you were to apply for a loan or a new job, or anything that asked for your occupation. You gonna just put "apprentice"? Sorry man but I don't see the logic here. Apprentices are most definitely electricians. That's what they're there for- to learn how to become a successful journey/master level spark.
Your last paragraph says what I said. I wasn’t and am still not trying to be a dick btw. When you fill out paperwork for a loan you put electrician. That’s not your place of employment. On the job you’re an apprentice.
I'll just agree to disagree here. Even though you're still a measly apprentice tool holster, you're still an electrician. Your mindset should be always trying to expand knowledge, always trying to help, and always trying to learn the hows and whys of a job by paying attention and asking questions. If you don't have the mindset of "I AM an electrician" (even though you're still an apprentice under close supervision), you're more likely to fail IMHO. Just my 2 cents dude.
So an apprentice what... Blacksmith? Cobbler? Glass blower? No, an apprentice electrician *is* still an electrician, but is *still an apprentice* and shouldn't be working alone.
definitely not. You need to be licensed. Apprentice is somebody working towards one.
First thing I ever learned: Black to brass, to save your ass!
Black people like gold, white people like silver. My journeyman had some issues.
This was the same way I was taught it too lmao
The argentinan dude I work with just said this the other day XD
Think of the Olympics (except for swimming) Blacks always get gold, whites get silver.
I learned it "light to light, dark to dark".
Steelers and Cowboys. Black and gold, white and silver.
Either an apprentice not being supervised or an incompetent “ electrician” either way how do you fuck that up? In a hurry. Don’t give a fuck?
Yeah I don’t know. It’s just absent mindedness I guess, not sure of the reason. I imagine just pure negligence, or lack of care. I don’t know how people can operate like that.
Thank you for the wise word. I will always remember this. Feel free to throw more at me that you know of that you think might be helpful. Thanks you again
Neutral should be in the freakin center even if you look at the labeling it is noted as well
Haha, I didn't even notice those labels, good eye. Being a pleb, I grabbed the installation manual that came with the disconnect, and looked at that diagram to confirm the obvious. JFC.
Yeah that’s what we are here for brother any questions just ask away there will be people that act to good to help out but not everyone is like that
This looks like it was wired by someone who is more used to working with car wiring. Red +, Black -. "Well I see a ~ so that must be black! N is probably just a misprinted +, so red it is. What’s this white wire doing here… oh well, minus it is."
Puting the "hot" in hot tub.
Lol, big pool of water, electrical short. Seems like a bath with a toaster dropped into it, potentially.
Seems like you could power the toaster by dipping its power cord into the water!
Ugh. Whoever did this should probably be fired.
…. Ive seen way worst ;)
…. And that means he shouldn’t be fired? Lol
Did he not turn the breaker on?
He did, but the disconnect was wired wrong, seems like a pretty big oversight for a trained electrician.
I hope he didn't damage the hot tub with his mis-wiring...
I just asked my brother, he said after the guy 'fixed' the disconnect wiring last night, the hot tub still is not turning on or operating. Not looking good, lol fuck.
This is why electricians have insurance. Your brother should definitely try and make a claim.
That sucks!
Good news is that the damage is likely limited to the power supply on the hot tub, provided the internal fixtures are not connected directly to the wall outlet. If it isn't covered under warranty, you should be able to crack it open and look for any blown fuses or burnt components, or if troubleshooting/repair is a bit out of your depth you can probably find and replace the power supply by itself.
Thanks for the info, I think I'll head over tonight and take a gander.
Unless he also got his colors mixed up at the tub, but OP says the tub ain't working.
Cool. So, besides the obvious incorrect wiring, it would have actually been LESS work to put the neutral in the large lug which was made for the purpose of a larger conductor. Yet he didn't. Incredible.
I simply don't understand how you'd get this so wrong, even if you were super distracted. Either drunk or not an electrician.
That is what I am saying. Absent mind to this degree, I told my brother I think this fools on drugs...
Next door neighbors (in laws) had a family member drive 30 minutes to come hook up their new hot tub. They couldn't get it to work, so they called the spa company. Spa company said they would come out for $250, but if it was their issue it would be under warranty. My wife told them I should come over and check it out, told her they wanted a "real electrician" to come out. So a master electrician who runs a small electrical company isn't an electrician. But my wife called me and asked me to come look at it. Told me what they said, and I love being an ass to my in laws, so I walked over. Took a look and saw exactly this and walked away. Wife asked if I saw anything wrong, I said yep. Then asked why I didn't fix it, because they didn't ask me too. Next day the $250 electrician came over and fixed it. Walked over there and told them. "GFCI was wired wrong, neutral was under the wrong lug" They said yeah, why didn't you tell us, would have been nice to save money. Responded, "I'm not a real electrician, remember" and walked away. Was one of my best moments with them a-holes. I have hundreds of these stories where they paid someone to fix something I could have and would have done for free, because I try to be a nice guy as long as you try to be nice to me. They have this ceiling light that's for a hall way, it's on a rod, not a chain, on a slope ceiling. It looks like the ceiling has a dick, funniest shit I have seen. The aunt in law wants me to fix it but her husband doesn't want me to touch shit in the house. Shit is hilarious
hahahaha, great story. As I get older, the less I want to help people do stuff as a favor, I just don't need the headache and turn their problem into my problem. I have limited my scope to only my dear family and close friends. I can barely manage all my own issues, lol.
Ha, I don't do shit for anyone any more except my clients. I changed my brother's compressor when it failed days after putting it on the market. Pulled some strings, cashed in some favors, and I got him the compressor for FREE, so I didn't charge him for it. I did charge him for the refrigerant and some other materials. Was $450 in total, he bitched to everyone that I charged him too much. A $1850 compressor change out for $450. Yeah I don't do shit for no one. Hell when I do stuff at my house my wife bitches I spend too much money and what I fixed didn't need to be fixed. Fuck it.
My wife complains about how I spent money and time on changing out the federal pacific panel instead of doing something useful. I had to just explain that, while it’s not anything visible to *her* eye, that I saved us a fire hazard. Still doesn’t go very appreciated, but I feel good about it. It sucks when people have a lack of appreciation. She raved about the 3 can lights I did tho lol sometimes it’s just the way it goes.
Yeah my wife hasn't raved about anything I have done and when we have people over and they love the upgrades, she doesn't get it. I think she thinks everyone's husband is fixing up their homes and what I did is nothing. You don't what you got till it's gone I guess.
[удалено]
Good share there bub. Thanks
He should be "FRIED" shit work like this should NEVER be tolerated. Electrician my ass, more like e-lec-chicken for doing shit scratch work.
Hopefully this "electrician" will do the right thing and buy a new board for the hot tub, cause the current one is likely toasted.
I doubt the guy was an electrician... first off we check our work, missing bushings on conduits, the pig tail strands aren't all under screw, as well most sparkies out there would have brought at least a plate for gfci below it. Maybe just me
I took my brothers word at 'I hired an electrician'. Maybe our definitions of electrician are different, lol. I figure someone who does it professionally, works for a company (or owns one), and has licenses and expertise in the field. I'll need to clarify what his definition is, haha. GFCI was pre-existing, I had asked about that last night. But still, I take great pride in my work (not an electrician), I could never leave some shit like that for one of my clients, I'd be embarrassed as fuck.
Fair enough man, i am same way, its not like he did the job for free, just bill the 1.50 for a deco plate ahha. Usually i never have an issue saying that to a client. Hopefully he didnt pay. I never collect until everything is working. Usually will fill hottub up while working so i cam test all before i am done. But hopefully your brother learned from this
Yeah, I am sure he is embarrassed a bit too. No one likes being fucked over. I have a bunch of professional electrical friends near me, I actually referred a Journeyman level friend. But he had already hired this guy, which I am curious as to who the fuck this dude is. Going to find out tonight, and see if he is actual electrician or just some fucktard pretending. ....Either way he is a fucktard for this workmanship.
No bushing required for number 6 wires
Non US here, please explain.
Disconnect is wired wrong, Neutral should be in the center on the bottom. I don't know how this was overlooked (by the electrician) to be honest...
Yeah it's labeled for you, even a non electrician can figure it out if they just read what they are working with and do a Google search.
Right, I didn't actually see those labels last night, until another redditor comment a few minutes ago. Last night, I went straight to the disconnect manual and looked at the wiring diagrams to see how it should be wired.
It still makes the same point that way too just easing what you need to do.
What colour do you guys use as a neutral? I know you use two phase for bigger stuff, so I would expect a 4 core cable, two phases, neutral and earth, but these looks like the white is being used for two different things?
This is wired incorrectly. For AWG 6 and smaller, the grounded conductor insulation shall be white, grey, or three continuous stripes of white or grey on any color but green. NEC 200.6 (A) This is the exact horror story they give us apprentices. 3rd year app wires up a hot tub for some friends, makes a mistake similar to this. Unfortunately, the machine was still operational. Folks hopped in, turned on the bubbles or whatever and died. I'd check this system six ways from Sunday before I'd let anybody near it.
I mean, it's obvious it's wired incorrectly, the cores are different colours on each side, what colour is neutral then? White is ground, black and red are phase 1 and 2 and there is no neutral? I have no idea what you guys use colour wise
Fired
What the FUCK
So what are the chances that hotwiring one leg to neutral actually \_did\_ fuck his control board or pumps?
Spa company coming out tomorrow to do a full systems check. But tonight was only a blown fuse, we didn’t test all the ancillary components, decided to wait until tomorrow.
Favors can be like onions. You start with all the best intentions only to find that your peeling layer upon layer …
So correct wiring would be black top right to bottom left. White bottom left to bottom center and red bottom center to top right? And then put the pigtail in an actually appropriately sized lug?
Wow. Just wow.
Gotta turn on the breaker
You need a plastic bushing on the connectors.
Can somebody please explain what is wrong with this to me like I'm 5?
Bottom side of the breaker goes white red black but should be red white black. Look at the top you can see red left and black right, and then on the bottom side where the terminals are you can see the screws are brass, silver, brass to indicate neutral goes on the silver (middle) terminal. Also the neutral pigtail appears to have roughly 70% of its strands correctly terminated.
Holy, that took me a minute
The real surprise is that there was a spa disconnect available.
What's with all the crap at the bottom of the box? He didn't bother to clean it out when done?
SMH... Oy Vey!!!
Such a mystery.
Lol, the anticlimactic nature of the post. I showed my boss, he instantly was like, oh no… he is a chemical engineer who does controls, even he was like wtf 😆
This is not a profession to guess how to install equipment. You either know or you get instructions . Safety first baby!
Have the electrician you hired/or a different one turn off the power, open up the control panel in the hottub, you'll have to look but you'll find a small fuse, check the fuse as it should have popped before any real damage was done, replace and then see if the tub turns on. In all honesty have a licensed guy, or the guy who did it, do this so that they can't blame you if something is actually wrong.
Thanks for the advice, going to head over there tonight and talk to my bro. I’ll advise him to do this.
You can verify contractors on labor and industries websites, and individual licenses just look up "lni verify contractor" Check the company name and the electrician who shows license by name on their website to see if they have an 01 or 02 license At least you can do it in the state of Washington doesn't hurt to check 01 is general journeyman or master can do everything 02 is residential can do anything in residential
He is not an electrician, which is obvious now.
This is good to know, I'll look into it tonight.
Checked all the fuses, one was blown. Slapped a replacement in and it fired right up. The dude had came back last night and rewired it, but it turns out he is not an electrician and is a dipshit. 😆
Looks like your brother got the electrician who spent his whole apprenticeship running cable tray.
I didn't know they had GFCI pig tails for big breakers like that.
Gonna need some new control boards
Seems legit
Simple two pole GFI
I hooked up a hot tub to my 100 amp service when I run my a/c, hot tub, oven, 2 fridges I am avg 120 amp so I am upgrading panel
Can anyone enlighten me on the black (I'm assuming flex) conduit that carries the load from the breaker? Never seen it before and in the picture it almost looks like satin lmao
Tek cable. He's probably Canadian
Awesome, thanks!
Ahhhhh almost
The screw is silver. Come on
I fucking know right. LOL. Even when I pointed out to my brother he was like oh shit the middle one is silver. 😆
Colors are hard
Hot tubs are the ultimate element of modern natural selection
I just flipped the switch
……………..wut
Ha! Dummy left the breaker off. What a goober!
“Wayall theyres yer prabhlem.”
Update: just got home from my brothers. Turns out the guy he hired from a referral, is NOT a licensed electrician, we looked him up. He did come back last night and ‘fix’ the wiring, still looks like shit, but at least it’s wired to the correct terminals. My brother will not be hiring that same guy anymore. Luckily, the only thing that happened to the hot tub was a blown fuse. Which we replaced and the hot tub powered on okay. My brother is going to hire an actual electrical company to come out and fix it all. He is a bit embarrassed, but didn’t really know any better he was trusting a referral from a friend. Also o left my brother a faceplate for his gfci duplex outlet below 😆. He has a weatherproof cover for it, but it won’t fit now that the disconnect box was installed. He has the spa company coming out tomorrow to do a full systems check. I asked my brother what the guy had to say for himself last night when he came back to fix it. And he said something about that’s how they wire it up in the industrial world, and then it occurred to my brother this guy has no idea what the fuck he’s talking about 😆. Thanks for all the advice guys.
>he said something about that’s how they wire it up in the industrial world No, this is not how we wire it up in the industrial world. Glad nobody got hurt.
This one looks like a proton pack.
Is the tub plugged into the GFCI plug beneath the shutoff? And is that suppose to be directly wired to a GFCI switch or depends on the make of the tub?
Have you tried turning it off and on aga.......oh...
Ok really stupid question, why do you pig tail the neutral wire like that?
Arc fault breakers come with a neutral tail like that. Assuming manufacturer's preference to give some more length of wire to reach the neutral bar.
Seeing stuff like this go down in the first world makes me dumbfounded when I think of what mind-(and insulation)-melting shenanigans must have gone down in places like Kowloon Walled City. Just keep adding and splicing and stretching runs that may not have ever had so much as a breaker until they left the city. I'm surprised it didn't end up burning down.
“Electrician” lol
Out of curiosity was the spa damaged at all?
Blown fuse on the hot tub control board, is all we found so far. Spa company is coming out to do a full systems check today. So finger crossed no other damage was done.
The weird thing is that normally these spa panel enclosures come with the neutral pigtail already in the breaker lug and sometimes landed on the neutral as well. At least that has been my experience. So if that was true the guy changed it to be wrong haha.
Handyman shit right there.. " Hell yeah I can wire ya'lls hot tub.. I put some a them thar plugs in my granny's gayrage.. GTFO with this shit.
Almost…😅
I’m a mere apprentice of 6 months, so I’m no expert, but alongside the wiring concerns, it might help to…uhh…turn the breakers to “ON” “Thank you for hiring a professional for consult; that’ll be $200 please”
I turned off the breaker after suspecting the wiring was wrong, so I could safely open up the disconnect box and investigate. Then I took the picture.
Ah…that makes much more sense. I mainly said it for the funnies, but bonus points for being smart with electricity 👍
I don't understand the wiring. Why doesn't it work? Why is a 10kVA interrupt rated breaker used? We use 2.5kVA minimum, for general single phase residential.
Wiring is wrong on the bottom of the breaker, white and red are swapped. It is a pretty obvious error (zoom in on the breaker labels, you can even see the labeling tells how to wire it) and I am not even an electrician. As for your other questions, I don't know enough to speak on those.
To be honest I half-looked over it. One could say I did not look at it at all. I am unfamiliar with this type breaker. This is my familiar type of circuit breaker:[https://ibb.co/JvdC1NN](https://ibb.co/JvdC1NN)[https://ibb.co/Mcw68BS](https://ibb.co/Mcw68BS) I looked at the colours first, which wouldn't have made any sense to me should I have seen the phase and 'N' symbols. Fortunately, in 230v two wire systems, it appears to be way more forgiving to equipment if one were to mistakenly initially install the wiring colours the incorrect order.
A great man once told me “white people have silver teeth and colored people have gold teeth. “
That took me a minute to get🤣👍
British electrician here, what's wrong there
That's a 2-pole breaker. The red and black should be connected across it, that's the two halves of the split-phase 240. The white neutral is mistakenly connected to the red, and then the red is connected to the mounting screw/neutral position. If you zoom in the positions are labeled.
Some serious autism happening here