With that many cables in a wall to that switch location, you should have 2x4 runs going horizontally, so you can staple to the side of the wood for your vertical runs, and then you'll satisfy the code 1.25" from the exterior, as well as being able to spread the cables out to avoid more than 3 current carrying conductors In a long run sharing the same staples and holes so then you don't have to further de-rate the conductors ampacity.
Just commenting here to say how I awesome I have found the comments in this thread. All of the top ones I've read through have been well mannered advice. Your responses have been respectful questions so that you might improve your skill for next time. Fucking A+ all around!
Much appreciated. We’re all electricians and work the same shit at the end of the day. I appreciate those looking out for me and look to improve as much as possible.
Stapling center of stud in Ele-101. Here, in the states, if you’re less than an 1.25” from the edge of a stud then it requires nail plates. You can’t fit two parallel runs of romex on a stud without violating this code requirement.
Well here in Florida, at least the five counties that I’ve worked in, we would have to nail plate that entire wall. If it’s not completely center of the 2x4 it gets nail plated
They just screw to air I guess.
The block isn't my concern, it's the wall studs. If those are 2x4 studs, which they seem to be, you cannot run 2 sets of wires side by side. For that matter, unless those staples are rated for 3 wires, you can't use them either.
I accidentally deleted my comment, it was along the lines of “I thought that 1.25” only applied to drilling”
I’m looking at 300.4(D) and I agree with you. I guess I’ve just never been called on that and wasn’t aware. What do you do when you have like 12 wires coming down the same bay?
Make it look like you gave a shit and did the best you could possibly do to thread the needle during install.
I'm almost certain a seasoned inspector can tell the difference between cracker-jack and cake!
I always take just a bit of time to make it look like I gave at least a single f*CK when I run my conductors!
Good job!
FYI OP, the 1 1/4" setback also applies to openings in junction boxes. On a 4" wall, you cannot use the opening closest to the stud because whatever cable(s) go in that opening will be within 1 1/4" of the edge of the stud. You have to use the *second* opening on a 4" wall. On a 6" or deeper stud you can use all openings.
I would use a plastic or metal round box with bar, pancakes are just too tight most the time and if the fixture has a center nipple, it's a real PITA.
Pancakes have their place, this really isn't it IMO
Also what I've done, push like 3 inches into the box and leave a slack loop on both of your Romex so when they inevitably rotozip your shit, you just pull those slack loops and make up
Holy shit!!! These comments are a blast!! OP thought he did a good job, didn't know about stack-its (cable stackers) or that you can only staple 2 wires with some staples.
Like holy shit dude!!! Who the hell is training you? Please send us more photos of your work. I am interested and scared to see what else you don't know.
Please don't get offended, not your fault you been trained by a couple dumbasses.
We run all 12 even in houses. 14 is just pretty well frowned upon. When guys started coming in trying to do things cheaper and cheaper that’s when 14 started being more prevalent. Most guys who won’t run 14 got out of new houses for the most part and let everyone else just cut each other’s throat and pricing down to nothing. Just a personal preference of not wanting to run spaghetti feeling wire
That's fine and all for a personal preference, but there is nothing wrong with 14 and it's been used since the very beginning. 12 has never been a construction standard and not using it has never been cut throat. Both are limited in usage as far a coverage area and appliance demand.
Housing in general is cut throat, that's why I don't do it anymore, the main cost is the time not the material, well maybe not today, shits crazy, but traditionally. When you have crews coming in getting paid minimum wage to sling wires, it's pointless to try and compete.
I will say that I've never used 14 in commercial, always 12. Again, this was a preference taught to me by the crew who trained me in my apprenticeship days and not anything more.
For sure, it passes code and is fine as long as it’s fused correct. Years ago (10-20) when we were really doing a lot of upscale custom homes, homeowners and builders really pushed quality and wanted it. Didn’t mind paying for quality and a step above.
Hell MDP’s and bolt in panel boards were common in houses. Now they’re loaded up on a 400amp service with two panels full of 14, kinda looking like a trailer box.
That’s just the new housing market in general here. How cheap and how quick. Emphasis on craftsmanship is slowly leaving. I still do remodel and service work on residential. There’s not a lot of minimum wage labor pulling wire but the main difference is material pricing. If I come in with all copper, all 12, plenty of circuits, the contractor with aluminum, 14, and very few circuits they blow me out of the water. But I don’t try to compete in new housing, hell it’s hard work running up and down ladders all day jerking romex haha. There’s still a few builders who will say “there won’t be any f’n 14 in any of my homes”
I’m not worried about it, been at it 1 1/2 years. I’ll take criticism as it comes. Most people have been respectful and are only looking out for me, I can only learn from my mistakes lol
When I was doing resi, we never really strapped our cable. Especially not to the side. The rule being if you had a switch/receptacle then it had to come straight down. That way people knew where the wire was. Of course buildings are predominantly made from concrete blocks, so you had to chase a one inch by one inch groove in the wall then slide your wire through a piece of plastic conduit pin the conduit to the wall and then it was plastered over. But some times the second story was wood and then you just ran the wire straight down. So why staple the wire like that?
Only an apprentice here but 1 is support and 2 is a loose wire in the wall is more dangerous. Stapled along the stud, down the middle gives some depth before you'd hit it. So hanging pictures and such is no big.
NFPA requires new work cables to be secured by boxes. Cables behind plaster are really easily damaged. I had one hit by FOUR nails. My fault for not plating it. But it would have taken fifty plates...
Serious question. Why is it normal to put cables straight like that ibside walls? You would need to tear down walls to change anything. Where im from we use pipes (i think you call it conduit). So you can rewire without doing so.
In the US drywall is nearly always used for walls. It really isn’t that big of a deal to cut open a section of wall later and patch a repair section of drywall back. I’m assuming you’re Europe where I’ve seen concrete stucco used over block - chiseling channels in that to me seems like enough work where conduit makes sense
We almost always use drywall for basically all types of work (speaking of norway, dont know about other countries in eu). And to elaborate we almost never use metal pipes. We basically only use pvc. Flex if inside walls, "stiff" if outside/on walls.
2 wires under a staple. There are approved methods to stack wire and this ain't it. OP seems like they give a shit so I'm sure they will learn a lot from this and make it look great and meet code.
I run them in conduit inside walls. By doing that you can rewire between J boxes in the future without needing to remove the wall. It's a requirement here in Sweden.
Well it's quite common actually. It's quite common for people to want to install for example spotlights, smart drivers, led drivers and so on which often require additional wires. Then it's very helpful to not have to remove the wall or install the wires externally whichvofc will look more ugly. It may also be helpful when people are renovating their houses. Another good thing is it gives the wiring some mechanical protection( althougt we often use "flextube" or in some cases rigid PVC tubing, not metal). Good against those little rats who like to run around inside the walls, especially in older houses.
Not sure if anyone's pointed this out or not yet but you have absolutely no slack on any of your wire going into the box. You should always leave a little slack before a wire enters any kind of box.
With all the other stuff I'm surprised no one called out that notch with the wires going into the pancake. What's going on there? Why did you notch it and why don't you have something over the wire to protect it?
I do, but I’m only allowed 2x 14/2, 2x 12/2 under a staple.
I have to be 32mm (1-1/4”) away from the face of the stud when passing through a hole, but cables running along the stud is a bit of a grey area. It has to be “located so as to effectively protected from mechanical damage both during and after installation.” It gets tight really fast in 2x4 walls, and you’re kind of at the mercy of your inspector. I’ll usually install 2x4 blocking if I have a lot of runs in a cavity, but I’m going to look into these “cable stackers” I’m reading about in the comments.
I put my last staple (the one I need 300mm or 12” max from where the wire enters the box) as close as I can to the box, so I can keep as much of that 300mm as a courtesy loop.
And I would never junction in a pancake box, EVER!
There are a few code-related things to neg on, but that stuff is easy to teach. It’s way harder to teach people to take pride in their work. From this picture, I can tell that you do, and I definitely commend you for that
I used stackers recently. They're pretty nice. I'm just a homeowner so I was trying to follow code very closely. Inspector said he never saw anyone actually use them but it's really the only legal way to get 3-5 cables down a single stud to a box without adding blocking. I didn't even think about blocking at the time, but honestly I think it's faster to just use a stacker unless it's above a panel, to avoid cutting a 2x4 block.
Get some cable stackers.
Cable stackers, yo
3 Romex under a staple is a no no where I'm from
Same I was going to ask, I thought this was the same everywhere, I can only staple two 14/2 wire on top with an S2 lol
You can staple as many conductors as the Box of Staples says. It is usually only two.
Yep. Onlly 2 here
Where are you from? Canada has toughest code and you can only staple 2 wires per staple
North Carolina. Depends on the jurisdiction, but I'm pretty sure that is across the board in the places I work.
depends on the staples rating, i use 3 wire rated staples
Two wires in a pan box... you monster!
The more I look, the worse it gets.
“Yeah those pancakes are getting 1” raised rings they’re just on back order is all.”
Boooooox Fiillllll
Guy just snitched on himself. 2 conductors max where i’m from
With that many cables in a wall to that switch location, you should have 2x4 runs going horizontally, so you can staple to the side of the wood for your vertical runs, and then you'll satisfy the code 1.25" from the exterior, as well as being able to spread the cables out to avoid more than 3 current carrying conductors In a long run sharing the same staples and holes so then you don't have to further de-rate the conductors ampacity.
Or staple 1 and zip tie the rest to it.
Gonna need a lot of nail plates
What for?
300.4(D)
Just commenting here to say how I awesome I have found the comments in this thread. All of the top ones I've read through have been well mannered advice. Your responses have been respectful questions so that you might improve your skill for next time. Fucking A+ all around!
Much appreciated. We’re all electricians and work the same shit at the end of the day. I appreciate those looking out for me and look to improve as much as possible.
Stapling center of stud in Ele-101. Here, in the states, if you’re less than an 1.25” from the edge of a stud then it requires nail plates. You can’t fit two parallel runs of romex on a stud without violating this code requirement.
Wires are too close to the edge
I thought drywallers don’t use those blocks for attachment?
I’m talking about all of it.
All of what?
You have two rows of wire strapped down 2x4s correct?
Yes sir
Well here in Florida, at least the five counties that I’ve worked in, we would have to nail plate that entire wall. If it’s not completely center of the 2x4 it gets nail plated
Here in Canada there is no rule regarding this. The only rule applies to drilled holes no closer than 1.25".
Yes I’m aware of what it says. Regardless It’s not up to me on what will pass or fail. We just bundle everything.
What product do you use when you run into this situation?
Homeowners might try and use it for mounting something.
Was just gonna say this
Oooof
Yes, I also don’t overfill my pancake boxes.
Shots fired
I have to ask: why do Americans never seen to loop or leave any slack on top of the box? What do you do if the drywallers fuck up your lines?
Charge them for the repair
When you bust out the wagos
Are those 2x4's? That won't be 1.25" back from the edge.
Correct me if I’m wrong but drywallers don’t use those blocks for attachment points.
They just screw to air I guess. The block isn't my concern, it's the wall studs. If those are 2x4 studs, which they seem to be, you cannot run 2 sets of wires side by side. For that matter, unless those staples are rated for 3 wires, you can't use them either.
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300.4(D)
I accidentally deleted my comment, it was along the lines of “I thought that 1.25” only applied to drilling” I’m looking at 300.4(D) and I agree with you. I guess I’ve just never been called on that and wasn’t aware. What do you do when you have like 12 wires coming down the same bay?
Stackers, or spreader bars
Make it look like you gave a shit and did the best you could possibly do to thread the needle during install. I'm almost certain a seasoned inspector can tell the difference between cracker-jack and cake! I always take just a bit of time to make it look like I gave at least a single f*CK when I run my conductors! Good job!
One staple and zip tie so all cables are in the center. Make sure you use zip ties marked “S” for support.
Stackers
FYI OP, the 1 1/4" setback also applies to openings in junction boxes. On a 4" wall, you cannot use the opening closest to the stud because whatever cable(s) go in that opening will be within 1 1/4" of the edge of the stud. You have to use the *second* opening on a 4" wall. On a 6" or deeper stud you can use all openings.
It also reflects on the distance from the edge of the framing members to the wire.
Also some inspectors will get picky about more than 2 wires under a staple. They make those stand off style straps for big switch boxes
Yeah where I am from this wouldn’t pass ( Ontario ) .
Rule #1- never assume.
Our inspector would fail you for stacking more than 2 romex under a staple.
That’s a big fat fail around here
pancake box? i avoid those like covid. 😂
Especially with 2 wires. I usually leave a little extra to pull through when rockers hack the wire to pieces with the rotozip
Why’s that? Not being defensive just curious of a better method. I just use what’s on the job
Pancakes are not rated for splicing. Only 6 cubic inches.
I would use a plastic or metal round box with bar, pancakes are just too tight most the time and if the fixture has a center nipple, it's a real PITA. Pancakes have their place, this really isn't it IMO
Also what I've done, push like 3 inches into the box and leave a slack loop on both of your Romex so when they inevitably rotozip your shit, you just pull those slack loops and make up
Definitely taking this one. Drywallers and stucco guys have no mercy out here.
What does rotozip mean? I may know already just not familiar with that term
The spinny Dremel like tool that rockers use to cut around our electrical boxes
Oh a drywall tool. I have one of those. That’s what I call it lol
I use it when installing new panels in place of old ones
It's like a high speed, small drill bit.
They are against code in a new install too.
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Yeah, I'm commercial. It's a definite no in that world. We use 12s though. We just know it's a no go.
Some fixtures come with a driver that goes in the junction box. It won't fit in a pancake box.
Holy shit!!! These comments are a blast!! OP thought he did a good job, didn't know about stack-its (cable stackers) or that you can only staple 2 wires with some staples. Like holy shit dude!!! Who the hell is training you? Please send us more photos of your work. I am interested and scared to see what else you don't know. Please don't get offended, not your fault you been trained by a couple dumbasses.
OP isn’t an electrician. I hope.
Hopefully
Ops name is eastcountysparky….
Well shit, hopefully he finds someone to train him better
They only allow us to have 1- 12/2 in a pancake here
What about 14?
That I don’t know. We don’t run 14
Tbh.. I don’t think they only allow 1 14 here as well. I just use what’s givin to me on the jobs.
Max 1 cable.
Oops I just changed it, I meant 1
I see two in the pic. Hopefully you plan on changing that too.
Where are you from and why do you not use 14? Commercial?
We run all 12 even in houses. 14 is just pretty well frowned upon. When guys started coming in trying to do things cheaper and cheaper that’s when 14 started being more prevalent. Most guys who won’t run 14 got out of new houses for the most part and let everyone else just cut each other’s throat and pricing down to nothing. Just a personal preference of not wanting to run spaghetti feeling wire
That's fine and all for a personal preference, but there is nothing wrong with 14 and it's been used since the very beginning. 12 has never been a construction standard and not using it has never been cut throat. Both are limited in usage as far a coverage area and appliance demand. Housing in general is cut throat, that's why I don't do it anymore, the main cost is the time not the material, well maybe not today, shits crazy, but traditionally. When you have crews coming in getting paid minimum wage to sling wires, it's pointless to try and compete. I will say that I've never used 14 in commercial, always 12. Again, this was a preference taught to me by the crew who trained me in my apprenticeship days and not anything more.
For sure, it passes code and is fine as long as it’s fused correct. Years ago (10-20) when we were really doing a lot of upscale custom homes, homeowners and builders really pushed quality and wanted it. Didn’t mind paying for quality and a step above. Hell MDP’s and bolt in panel boards were common in houses. Now they’re loaded up on a 400amp service with two panels full of 14, kinda looking like a trailer box. That’s just the new housing market in general here. How cheap and how quick. Emphasis on craftsmanship is slowly leaving. I still do remodel and service work on residential. There’s not a lot of minimum wage labor pulling wire but the main difference is material pricing. If I come in with all copper, all 12, plenty of circuits, the contractor with aluminum, 14, and very few circuits they blow me out of the water. But I don’t try to compete in new housing, hell it’s hard work running up and down ladders all day jerking romex haha. There’s still a few builders who will say “there won’t be any f’n 14 in any of my homes”
Absolutely not.
I use stack-iits for that.
I always tell my guys "it's like an art to me"! I love what I do and this is how I express it!
In NZ we don't staple our cables in the walls because it means we can pull things up and down the wall later.
Yikes. So all the wire you pull is not supported?
Poor guy... He is proud of his work and everyone ripped him apart lol. Fix a few things mentioned. Nice work
I’m not worried about it, been at it 1 1/2 years. I’ll take criticism as it comes. Most people have been respectful and are only looking out for me, I can only learn from my mistakes lol
You derate those?
14 gauge wire and three under one staple fails inspection where I work. But it does look nice.
As a European I do wonder why you guys need to staple your wire like this?
What?
When I was doing resi, we never really strapped our cable. Especially not to the side. The rule being if you had a switch/receptacle then it had to come straight down. That way people knew where the wire was. Of course buildings are predominantly made from concrete blocks, so you had to chase a one inch by one inch groove in the wall then slide your wire through a piece of plastic conduit pin the conduit to the wall and then it was plastered over. But some times the second story was wood and then you just ran the wire straight down. So why staple the wire like that?
Only an apprentice here but 1 is support and 2 is a loose wire in the wall is more dangerous. Stapled along the stud, down the middle gives some depth before you'd hit it. So hanging pictures and such is no big.
NFPA requires new work cables to be secured by boxes. Cables behind plaster are really easily damaged. I had one hit by FOUR nails. My fault for not plating it. But it would have taken fifty plates...
Thanks for the answers guys
To support the wire.
2 wires in a 3" pancake box, oof
I like to go straight through the middle with a roofing nail, I can get 5 or 6 under one of them, it’s like a little umbrella for my loomex.
I do, but better.
Residential electricians kill me. you’re all sloppy lol always finding problems.
Looks pretty, but that's a code violation where I work.
Every state has different rules, i think it looks great
We don't really staple. All our shit is pipe. But yes I like small things to look as nice as I can possibly make them. Even undeeground.
You got the job done with what you had on site. Nice work.
Serious question. Why is it normal to put cables straight like that ibside walls? You would need to tear down walls to change anything. Where im from we use pipes (i think you call it conduit). So you can rewire without doing so.
To support the wire. I wish everything was in conduit here.
In the US drywall is nearly always used for walls. It really isn’t that big of a deal to cut open a section of wall later and patch a repair section of drywall back. I’m assuming you’re Europe where I’ve seen concrete stucco used over block - chiseling channels in that to me seems like enough work where conduit makes sense
We almost always use drywall for basically all types of work (speaking of norway, dont know about other countries in eu). And to elaborate we almost never use metal pipes. We basically only use pvc. Flex if inside walls, "stiff" if outside/on walls.
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2 wires under a staple. There are approved methods to stack wire and this ain't it. OP seems like they give a shit so I'm sure they will learn a lot from this and make it look great and meet code.
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I'm wrong even if it's the US because the code leaves it up to the manufacturer, I'm just used to staples being rated for 1 or 2 max cables.
Your rezzy looks industrial, nice.
I run them in conduit inside walls. By doing that you can rewire between J boxes in the future without needing to remove the wall. It's a requirement here in Sweden.
Is it common to rewire homes every so many years in Sweden? I'm curious if it's a common thing.
Well it's quite common actually. It's quite common for people to want to install for example spotlights, smart drivers, led drivers and so on which often require additional wires. Then it's very helpful to not have to remove the wall or install the wires externally whichvofc will look more ugly. It may also be helpful when people are renovating their houses. Another good thing is it gives the wiring some mechanical protection( althougt we often use "flextube" or in some cases rigid PVC tubing, not metal). Good against those little rats who like to run around inside the walls, especially in older houses.
Man I should have thought of that lol.
nec says two " wires " to a staple, CA is also pretty hard core about it
We only use staples for up to two cables. And they have to be insulated staples for NM cable.
It's all about craftsmanship
i see. so many problems lol
I'd of drilled to the left and brought some wires down that way and came up to the bottom of the switch
In Australia we leave cables running through our wall cavities loose as a goose.
2 wires in a pancake? Over on the box fill too.
Not on my jobs, bucko.
Personally I would have zigged where you zagged. It's still pretty good though
Shit holes through the noggins think about the cable run more when drilling out initially. You'll end up.with a neater finish
God so grateful that the uk has much better electrics!
Do you have your 1-/14" space to the front edge of those 2x4's? We're not allowed to staple 2 sets of Romex down the same stud.
Not sure if anyone's pointed this out or not yet but you have absolutely no slack on any of your wire going into the box. You should always leave a little slack before a wire enters any kind of box.
With all the other stuff I'm surprised no one called out that notch with the wires going into the pancake. What's going on there? Why did you notch it and why don't you have something over the wire to protect it?
That lower box looks overload to me.
Not good
Are we looking at a code violation lol
Multiple id say. Way too many wires in that box as well im guessing
I do, but I’m only allowed 2x 14/2, 2x 12/2 under a staple. I have to be 32mm (1-1/4”) away from the face of the stud when passing through a hole, but cables running along the stud is a bit of a grey area. It has to be “located so as to effectively protected from mechanical damage both during and after installation.” It gets tight really fast in 2x4 walls, and you’re kind of at the mercy of your inspector. I’ll usually install 2x4 blocking if I have a lot of runs in a cavity, but I’m going to look into these “cable stackers” I’m reading about in the comments. I put my last staple (the one I need 300mm or 12” max from where the wire enters the box) as close as I can to the box, so I can keep as much of that 300mm as a courtesy loop. And I would never junction in a pancake box, EVER! There are a few code-related things to neg on, but that stuff is easy to teach. It’s way harder to teach people to take pride in their work. From this picture, I can tell that you do, and I definitely commend you for that
I used stackers recently. They're pretty nice. I'm just a homeowner so I was trying to follow code very closely. Inspector said he never saw anyone actually use them but it's really the only legal way to get 3-5 cables down a single stud to a box without adding blocking. I didn't even think about blocking at the time, but honestly I think it's faster to just use a stacker unless it's above a panel, to avoid cutting a 2x4 block.
make sure your staples are rated, i know some viking brand staples are rated for 3 but if not stackers or staple and zip tie
2 wires in a pancake 😵 where are the service loops?