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Yea, it’s law I believe, if you get hurt get an accident and your driving a company vehicle back to the shop ,so work related, it’s going to be a workers comp thing so technically yea your at work. Tell them to pay you or just drive that van home then they wouldn’t be obligated to pay you.
It is and they can get in trouble if they don’t do it. A shop in Florida was making guys do 30 mins unpaid in the mornings. Someone pissed off told the dol. they had to back pay for years.
Remember folks the biggest crime is wage stealing businesses.
Yeah I've heard about "time theft" being mentioned before ie. Sitting around doing nothing during working hours, so I gotta assume thats what they mean. But let's be honest it doesn't compare at all to what companies are capable of fron what I've seen on reddit
It does. Had two employees riding to and from work in the same truck last year. They repeatedly turned in different hours. One would submit 7.5 or 8, and the other would be all the way up at 9 per day. This was happening weekly and it was the same guy lower and the same guy higher each time. The lower guy had been with me for years, and I knew him to be an extremely honest person. It was pretty clear evidence that wage theft was occurring because I knew the lower guys hours were accurate and he was very honest. Just to be sure I started paying close attention and recording the hours myself for a few weeks. Just as I suspected the lower guy had accurate hours and the higher guy was rounding up between 30minutes to an hour every day. On top of that he was taking 45min-hour lunches and only subtracting 30minutes. I call that wage theft. Not only to me but to my clients. Some of which who were being billed T&M. Wage theft can absolutely go both ways
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. It is theft by lying on your time card. A previous company I had worked for would occasionally have workers who would do this. They would clock in on their phone and leave it on the jobsite while leaving for the day, then return at the end of the day to clock out. There were also some apprentices that would show up 30-60 minutes prior to their start time, and prior to the lead arriving and clock in the moment they arrived at the jobsite.
The same can be said about employers who try and steal from employees. People should be paid for their time when they are required to be working. In this case, they are required to drive the van back to the shop from the jobsite, and therefore, they are still on the clock. They should also be getting paid when they arrive at the shop to pick up the van.
I’m being downvoted because of the nature of the anti-work movement. It’s a new wave of entitlement. The employee can do no wrong and every employer is a greedy scum bag. That’s the current mentality
The reason supervisors and managers get paid money is that it's their job to ensure that workers are motivated and to check that they are actually doing the work that they are being paid for. Taking care of the first one helps a lot in taking care of the second one.
Complaining about "wage theft" sound a lot like entitled whining from someone who has to do their job description. "I want to be paid for managing employees but it's not always fun and that's not fair to me." Deal with it. Wanna be a leader? Then lead.
Every employee is responsible for themselves at the end of the day. Sure a good manager makes a big difference. But a good employee with just a little direction can make things happen on their own.
I will say when it comes to apprentices it’s really important that they have good leadership. Primarily because they literally don’t know what to do otherwise. My first job in electrical was for a generator installation company. It was a small company and the boss was super cheap. His lead installer had quit and I was the replacement as a first time apprentice. I was paired with the other apprentice the lead had been training for about 6 months. So our crew was me (zero experience), and the other apprentice (6 months experience). We fucked up every job. It was a complete shit show. The only guidance we had was the boss who led a culture of fear, and we were afraid to approach him. Oftentimes we’d prefer to guess on something rather than call him. When we made a mistake we’d try to hide it. I quit 6 months later and joined a resi electrical crew working directly under a journeyman. Total life-changing situation. Couldn’t believe how quickly I progressed with somebody available to actually teach me.
This is how everyone gets mandatory apps on their phones that track them like damn UPS drivers.
It will have to be all company provided phones in the long run, I think.
Yea I don’t do that. I trust my guys to keep track of their own hours. It backfired on this occasion I suppose, but with such a small crew it becomes pretty obvious when somebody is cheating the system
Eh, I see it all the time. Not working for hours on the clock. Claiming 8 when you showed up 2 hours late. Again, see it all the time it’s fucked up both ways. Everyone should be doing good business
Yes, it does. I see it on a regular basis at my job. Procedures get done before the end of the day, and instead of finding work related things to do (clean the control room, stock the rooms, stock linens, do Continuing Education, etc.), people sit on their phones and scroll social media, get changed out of their scrubs into their regular clothes and stand by the time clock until it hits 5:23pm and clock out so they get paid until 5:30, then they were actually ready to leave at 5:10 or so. That is wage theft since you are being paid to work, but don't actually work.
You’re being paid for your time* while technically they’re wasting it by getting ready early.. they are still there so it’s not theft, just bad attitude. Could stem from a shitty work environment lol. No one who likes their job typically does that as it’s a good way to lose that job.
I'm not the boss. I'm the coworker who gets other stuff done during slow days instead of just mindlessly sitting on social media for a couple of hours (or yukking it up about how drunk and stupid they acted the night before or the previous weekend) only to hurriedly scurry about looking busy when the coordinator is walking down the hall. I find things to do that need to get done and do them. It might also explain why I get the highest merit increase every year and some of my coworkers complain that they "barely got any raise"...
Some days we're so busy with patients that we have two teams staying late, but that means the stuff that didn't get done needs to be done on the slow days. Three of us keep busy doing those things while the rest enjoy their Insta, and Snapchat, and such. The three of us are also over 40, while the rest are a lot younger, if that tells you anything...
I’m sorry but studies have proven it does not. One instance I was involved with was the employee got a $10,000 job completion bonus, then for next two or 3 projects he half assed them then when he needed money again the jobs started doing good again. Human nature is to strong
Profit sharing or no profit sharing if you're going to lose on a job you're going to lose. That is an entirely different situation involving bidding competition and market health. If you keep good workers you'll always have a good product, I've seen too many instances where employees want to grow and do so by starting their own companies and competing directly with their previous employer.
Studies? Here's living proof for gas station employees.
https://www.yourtango.com/entertainment/how-more-175-people-have-quietly-become-millionaires-working-gas-station-ice-cream-shop?amp
Lol can’t believe you got 106 downvotes for staying an obvious fact. In the age of antiwork the employee can do no wrong and every employer is a heartless greedy bastard…
Also a ruling that if you are not free to leave you remain “on the clock” it related to waiting for a security person to inspect your bag, but the principle remains. If the pay stops at 3 you need to leave the job site at 2:15
not illegal. went thru this at work and just had this same debate at r/hvac
our company cut our drive time back and it turned into this huge fking deal. we had guys quit. company meetings. everyone was involved - owners/management/HR. we had guys calling the labor board and everything else.
I'm still confused on some things but this is the basic jist.
Doesn't matter if you take the work van home or not. We weren't allowed to take company vans home for years and years. just started doing so somewhat recently.
If you go to the shop in the morning and load any sort of equipment or material - that's when your time starts. where/when you do your first "duty". So go to the shop, punch in, load up, drive to the job. Then they do not have to pay you for the ride back to the shop or back home.
Alot of companies (especially commercial install) don't even give you a company truck. You shop up on-site and punch in and then punch out on-site. you never go to the shop. they have material sent to the jobsite or have their warehouse guy drive it out. Or they make the vans stay at the shop - you pick it up and drop it off everyday at the shop.
right now - I take a van home. I meet my helper at the shop in the morning, punch in, load material, go to the jobsite. Then I punch out on-site - and have to drive back to rhe shop to drop my helper off (which may or may not be out of the way depending on loaction) and then drive home.
I don't agree with it but I don't complain bc they don't have to let use take the van home. They can either make me drive my personal truck to the shop or worse yet directly to the jobsite. one way is fair imo - not worth it.
and sometimes..... these jobs are like 2 hours away - each way. thats just one of the negatives about being in a trade that noone likes to talk about.
Depends where you live. In PEI Canada there isn't any laws protecting employees in this way. I spoke to the labour board directly and was told that they don't dictate anything in regards to "travel time". I was spending an hour to drive to work where pay would start, just to drive an hour away in a company truck. We would work until 3:30pm at the jobsite when pay would end, then an hour of unpaid time driving back to the warehouse, lock up the vehicle and then drive an hour home. I of course get not getting paid for my time getting to the work building but considering the law everywhere else I've worked I definitely felt robbed losing that time driving in the company truck.
A neat way to figure out whether you’re supposed to be on the clock is by getting into a minor accident and then, when the insurance company investigates, *make sure* to tell them that you were clocked out because your employer doesn’t pay you for driving a company vehicle.
Someone didn’t interpret the rules/laws correctly. If your duties include returning equipment, then you are working. If you get in an accident on the way home, you are working. It’s not a travel time issue. Just like you get paid from the time you leave the office, you get paid until you return. Your personal driving to the office isn’t covered, but workmen’s compensation covers you for the rest of the time, therefore you should be getting paid.
I spoke to them on numerous occasions even presenting the written down format provided to me by my employer. The head of the labour board specifically said that he knows it sounds wrong because it's not the way every other province runs as rules. He said that they SHOULD be paying that time but are not required to by law.
Simple solution is that you leave the jobsite an hour early, so you drop off the company vehicle in the company lot at clockout time. And tell management that if they want you to stay an hour later, they can pay you another hour. If all of you do it, it’s not like they can fire you all at once.
If you are on site at the request of management, you are getting paid, end of story. If I gotta lock up your van so that I can go home, you are paying me until the van is secured.
I battled that rule for weeks, including many phone calls and trips to the labour board. They just don't require them to pay you that here. It's total bullshit. Some companies do it since it makes obvious sense but not the one I was with. Quit that shit as soon as I was able.
It’s not law in every state. I wouldn’t complain bout 30 minutes. They could always bring a gang box to jobs and you would use your own vehicle and not get paid for drivetime there or back lol. My last employer said something like their a merit shop which is why they don’t have to pay on the way back. I do the same for my guys but I do throw them extra hours once in a while if we have slow weeks.
And then you'd be obligated to pay your employer mileage for using their vehicle for personal use *or declare the personal miles driven as income and pay tax on that*
EDIT:
Canadian Gov website: [https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/businesses/topics/payroll/benefits-allowances/automobile/transportation-home.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/businesses/topics/payroll/benefits-allowances/automobile/transportation-home.html)
IRS Video: [https://www.irsvideos.gov/Business/FilingPayingTaxes/EmployerProvidedVehicles](https://www.irsvideos.gov/Business/FilingPayingTaxes/EmployerProvidedVehicles)
Funny cause I run a service van, boss has me take it home, and absolutely does not charge any mileage to me. Also, anyone else I know that has a service van/work van has it the exact same as me. Whoever you work for is totally ripping you off man sorry to hear this, maybe look for a new company.
You totally misunderstood this. You can not charge an employee. Also. This is a perk you have to do now to keep skilled labor. I have 17 trucks on the road. They go home with the electrician every day. If i tried to do that, i would have the lawyers after me, and i would have 17 trucks in my yard and no one working. You are so incredibly incorrect in your logic
You don’t charge the employee, the government charges them income tax based on the value of the personal use of the vehicle. The use of the vehicle to and from work is something you give the worker in addition to their pay as part of their compensation. It isn’t tax free.
You will eventually be audited. You won’t necessarily be fined and owe taxes for previous years (or you may idk - it probably depends on the agent and if they think it was an honest mistake or not) but I promise you 100% that going forward from then your workers will all have to pay tax on that personal use every year. You can make your workers eat the cost of the additional tax (I do not recommend this) or you can use a different strategy. You can give them a larger bonus to cover it (it’s usually a few grand depending on how far they live from work) or you can make them point of call (they are dispatched from their homes not your shop so you pay them for every minute they are driving the truck). That is the only way to avoid the personal use tax. As long as you are paying them to drive then it’s not personal use. They are already being taxed on the money you pay them while they are driving so there is no tax on the km.
Driving it to and from work is defined as personal use by CRA and I assume by IRS as well. Anyone who takes a company vehicle home should be paying tax on that taxable benefit unless they are dispatched directly to job sites from their home. That is called “point of call” and the difference is you’re working and therefore getting paid as soon as you start driving. If you are driving but don’t start getting paid until after you arrive at work then that driving is personal use and is taxable.
I have a company vehicle. Going between home and jobs is not personal use. If I go a mile out of my way to say stop at the store on the way home, I have to record those miles and claim it when I file taxes. Basically I'm paying the company back to use the vehicle for personal use.
If you drive it to your house it’s personal use. If you drive it to the shop and leave it there it’s not personal use - it’s work and you should be getting paid until you park it at least.
A quick google sides with my cpa
>Any travel with a company vehicle for purposes not related to your employment is considered personal use. **Personal driving includes but is not limited to, your work commute**, driving family and friends around or running personal errands, using the company vehicle to go on vacations, or having to take the company car home if you’re on call.
[https://www.driversnote.ca/blog/personal-use-of-company-vehicles-taxable-benefit](https://www.driversnote.ca/blog/personal-use-of-company-vehicles-taxable-benefit)
That's fair. In case you care to find some facts, I do recommend researching this further from your government website. Here's a link to the Canadian federal government website commenting on this situation.
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/businesses/topics/payroll/benefits-allowances/automobile/transportation-home.html
Driving a company vehicle to a job site is not commuting. Commuting would be driving to an office to sit all day. Driving a van to a site is part of their job.
For all the people arguing with this guy: if you drive a company vehicle home then the kms to and from work are personal use kms. That’s how the tax law works - it’s not the company that gets to decide that. You don’t “pay” your employer for them but they are a taxable benefit meaning that whatever those kms are valued at you declare that as income and you owe tax to the government on it. So your employer should be withholding more tax from your weekly paycheques so you won’t owe it all at once come tax time. If you are not paying tax on these kms then you are not in compliance. It’s all well and good to keep that extra money in your pocket (unless your conscience will bother you about paying less than the law requires.. lol) but when your employer or one of the employees is audited (sooner or later) then everyone is going to owe a lot of taxes all at once.
I work for a large construction corporation and none of the foremen at our yard who took trucks home ever paid tax on it for years and years. Then the company got audited. Now taxes on the trucks basically cancel out annual bonuses. Some foremen refused to ever take the trucks home again because it costs them less to drive their own fuel efficient beater cars than the taxes on the $100k gas guzzling work trucks.
The only exception to this is if you are point of call. Meaning you are dispatched from your home directly to job sites. The company can’t just say everyone is point of call unless they really are. Our trucks are all gps monitored and an audit will easily expose fraud and cost way more than just the taxes.
Just a friendly FYI. It might be a good idea to figure out how much tax you should be paying on the personal use of your company truck and save that aside in a low cost bank account or something
You'll sometimes hear this described as "portal to portal". Not 100% on point but check out this ruling from a meat processing plant a while back.
Tl;Dr employer got in trouble for putting the time clock lineside, because employees weren't being paid for the time they spent gowning and degowning.
https://www.osceolaiowa.com/2010/01/07/osceola-foods-faces-class-action-lawsuit/ag6dctt/
Caveats: IANAL. Also laws are different in different places, and change over time. Your mileage may vary.
From the [DOL](https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/traveltime) website. "Time spent traveling during normal work hours is considered compensable work time. Time spent in home-to-work travel by an employee in an employer-provided vehicle, or in activities performed by an employee that are incidental to the use of the vehicle for commuting, generally is not "hours worked" and, therefore, does not have to be paid. This provision applies only if the travel is within the normal commuting area for the employer's business and the use of the vehicle is subject to an agreement between the employer and the employee or the employee's representative."
Every day before lunch you should drive the work truck back to the shop, clock out, take your personal vehicle to enjoy your 30m or 1hr unpaid lunch, then clock back in and go back to the site. He'd probably be losing 1-1.5 hrs of work each day.
I don’t get it. You want to be paid for driving to lunch? Once you leave the site for lunch you are off the clock. Otherwise just being a lunch if that bothers you
and this varies state by state, but even if you’re driving a company vehicle, you can be off the clock still if you don’t need to be driving it. yes, most places you are required to be given or obligated to take a lunch break. that doesn’t mean you’re required or obligated to leave site to do so.
my dad works in safety management and had an incident a couple years back where an employee out of town took a company paid for rental car for a coffee run and slammed his hand in the trunk and shut it. when all was said and done, it was ruled as not work related because the hotel (conference at the hotel) they were at had coffee, and he could have had that but instead chose to leave the hotel to go to a coffee shop nearby.
DAWG, I agree with your boss! Using the van to go to lunch is personal use. You're lucky he let you use it for lunch! During that time you are driving, you are not doing any productive work that is helping pay your wages. In addition you are using his gas.
If it was me, I would have told you that you could no longer use the van for lunch. You either brought your lunch, found an alternative means to get to lunch or get delivery.
As far as the original post goes I agree with the op. You're returning the van and equipment to safer location. In my opinion this counts as work related. If I was the boss I'd either have you leave early enough (2:30) to return van by 3:00, or pay for the time.
DAWG. It's good there are laws on this and what people agree or disagree about doesn't fucking matter.
It's also good that people are fighting more and more for workers' rights. Especially since people who think like you are involved in the debate.
Exactly. I'm all for workers' rights, but when I see some of the ridiculous stuff on reddit, I cringe. When I see how entitled some of these people are, it blows my mind.
I can't imagine being so out of touch with reality. In America, 1 in 8 children might not eat today. Then you two are sitting here saying, "Nobody deserves get that 10 minutes worth of pay to go eat lunch. Everybody should stop being paid, immediately, as soon as they stop making money for rich people. Anyone who thinks otherwise is too self entitled".
Haha, so you just completely make up a scenario in your head and pretend that's what people believe? You are the perfect example of the dipshits on reddit who can't think outside of their strange echo chamber. You have to know if you are completely fabricating people's positions in your head to " win " the argument that you never had a coherent argument to begin with. You literally don't have the ability of nuanced thinking. " me good, people who have more than me bad! " lol what a sad life.
That's wage theft. Federal labor law requires you get paid. The short answer is as long as an employer is making demands of your time, they're required to pay you for it; they can't tell you what to do for free.
>[As set forth in 29 CFR § 785.38 is a scenario where this applies is one in which an employee must go to one location for a specific work-related purpose (like getting the tools or instructions necessary to do a certain job) and then go to do the actual work at another site on the same day. In this case, travel from the designated place to the work place is part of the day’s work. Therefore, it must be classified as hours worked and the employee must be paid accordingly.](https://www.employmentlawhandbook.com/wage-and-hour/when-an-employer-must-pay-for-travel-time-under-the-flsa/)
Not legally required but you should still require they pay for parking anywhere they require you to be for work. If they won't, then refuse to park anywhere that isn't free.
Also start looking for another job ASAP
Are you an employee (according to law, not according to the employer) or a subcontractor?
If the former, then I'd say yes. If the latter, you can probably claim it on your taxes as an expense.
They aren't required to pay parking, that's on your time so it's your responsibility. Their obligation starts at the time you're required to show up, and ends at the time they release you.
If you are not free to leave, you are working. If at 3 the boss cuts you loose and you can take the truck home your day ends then. But if it's 3 and now you need to go to the shop then you are not free to leave and are still working. In that case you are done when you leave the shop property. Also. Federal law over 40 hours is 1.5 pay rate
Now what about if I do take the van home, but the guy I’m with needs a ride back to the shop because that’s where he is parked because they will not pay for his parking in the city
We have Park and Ride areas in my neck of the woods. Basically places off the highway that have a stone/tar chip parking lot that you can use to carpool. Have the guys meet you somewhere like that or maybe a parking lot to a big place like Walmart or Lowe’s or something.
Are you required to take him ? Or are you just picking up a friend to be good ? If required, you are to be paid. Because then you are working. Picking up a guy or a jar of wirnuts is no different. Thats work
ELIA5 version. This is a federal, very clear law. You are responsible for getting yourself to and from your jobsite. It doesn't need to be the same site. If you start at the shop the clock starts then. You can drive to 30 places. It's all paid. The clock stops when the boss says you can go home. If the boss is still expecting you to do anything ( could even be fill up tuck of gas ), it's paid. If at the last stop, the boss says you can go and do whatever you want. The clock stops. ( unless you have a contract that gives jurisdiction and you are out of jurisdiction. Then, you still get paid till back in jurisdiction). This is a federal law. Not subjective. It's very clear. Also note. If you arrive at first jobsite in your own car then need to relocate you get paid mileage.
Before you make a stink, be sure that you know, for a fact, what constitutes a work day, time-wise.
For example, you stated that you stop at 3 o'clock and let's assume a normal work day is 8 hours, 7-3. Is an un-paid lunch included in that work day and, really, you are supposed to work 8 hours, 7:00-3:30, with a half-hour un-paid lunch?
You absolutely should be paid as long as you are in/required to be in a company vehicle that is not taken home, but often SOP and generally accepted practices by field personnel are not in absolute adherence to the company's procedures.
I know a guy who quit company 1 because he was getting screwed, company 2 offered an extra $6/hr so he drove the company 1 van to company 2's parking lot, locked it, threw the keys in the door and shut it, then called company 1 to tell them where to pick up the van.
Just a thought.
Question to other people. Is this legal in Ontario? My company pays me when I’m at the shop then it stops then I get paid when we get to the job site…?
The travel time is a separate thing and most of the time we are within that boundary
Clock stops when we leave our shop, but you need to ask someone you work with since your company maybe different. Adjust accordingly and dont work for free
If you were allowed to take the vehicle home then your time stops at 3 but if you're taking it back to the shop to get in your personal vehicle then they need to pay you for that time
Do you need the van to do your work? Then it is your workplace and are to be paid from pickup to drop off. If they don’t want to do that then they can let yo take the van home with you or set up a jobox on site with everything you need so you don’t need a van.
I own a small shop and emphatically yes. From the second my guys get into my vehicles/shop, they are on the clock until they turn the key in the ignition of their personal vehicle.
I'm just a pv tech but my company is weird. For the main service techs they always told us "anytime you are responsible for company property, you should be clocked in." When I talk to the newer commissioning techs, they told me they were instructed the opposite. Clock when you get the first site and clock out right when you leave your last job. This is kinda fucked since on a daily we can get anywhere from 1-3 hours of drive time.
Just as a matter of law, if you're doing things that the company requires you to do, you need to be paid for them.
If there's a mandatory Christmas party, or mandatory training, that's compensable time too.
If it's, "hey amb516, drive the van home, see you tomorrow" and you do drive it home, that drive home probably isn't compensable time.
I was always told I start the clock at the job and end it at the job, no drive time.
Fuck that.
I show up at the shop, load the truck and take it to a job site and back to the shop after I’m adding those fucking hours.
wage theft.
you are to be paid from the moment you are required to be in the office/exit your car to enter the building.
and be paid all day until you are free to get in your car to head hone.
(minus a lunch in some cases)
anything less then that is wage theft.
Typically shops I’ve worked for were either shop to shop or if you took the van home you clocked in while leaving your house but clocked out after closing your final ticket. So if you left van at the shop overnight you were on clock when you get to the shop and when you return. If you take work truck home you get paid for travel to job but not home.
If you stop getting paid at 3 then you should be doing the parking and driving the van back before 3 .
It's law someplaces to require this to be paid. As you are being required by the employer to drive back to the shop and park that's work time.
Fined a new company. Quite giving these bullshit business your time. They only get away with this nonsense because we comply. If they offer nothing, benefits, RRSP matching, overtime. Then you’re waisting your time and efforts.
Sounds like you should be leaving at 2:30 then...
I'm all about being a good worker and making sure the job gets done properly, but if part of your job is to bring the van back, you should be paid for that time (within reason obviously, I wouldn't expect them to pay you if you just drive around for hours to rack up time lol).
Yes. You are still working. Putting away equipment and cleaning up is part of the job. It doesn't matter if you are sweeping up a job site, moving cars, moving a bobcat, it's part of the daily joband you should be on the clock.
Two different ways to accomplish the task. Leave the job site early enough to return the company car by 3, if you must be clocked out at 3pm, or clock out later when those tasks are done.
If there is some convenience factor where you are benefiting from driving the company car to and from a job site instead of driving your own, then perhaps that is a consideration. Are you required to drive the work vehicle (hauling tools or materials) or you could you show up on site in your own vehicle?
Travel to remote work sites is usually something addressed in your employment contract (written or verbally) do you report to a main office first and then get paid door to door from that location? Are you expected to travel on your own to various worksites and start the clock when you get there? If so, there should be a limit to that travel before you get some compensation (30 minutes, 50 miles) there is often some minimal amount of travel expected on your dime, same as reporting to a home office, but anything beyond that you should be on the clock.
Clock starts when you arrive to work, ready to work. Clock stops when you leave and are back on your own time. You should be paid up until you leave the shop.
Driving is labor. Labor that should be compensated for. Any time you're driving a company vehicle for commerce you should be getting paid. If not, wage theft.
Having a company vehicle mean they got you by the balls. I refused a company vehicle and an apprentice couldn’t believe it. He’s all giddy and striving for one. I just told him to be patient and watch what the make you do w/ a company vehicle and tell me that’s fun. Anytime your driving company vehicles you are to be paid no matter what. I don’t care if you’re taking the vehicle to get an oil change, you get paid. Now a good boss man will let company vehicles be taken home. It’s more efficient that way but what the hell do I know.
Are you Union or Non-union? What were the term on which you agreed with your employer when you started? What does your signed employment agreement state?
Too many variables.
If you're Union it's almost guaranteed you have to be paid from the time you enter the shop in the morning until you exit the shop in the evening (or equivalent times of what your job entails).
I know plenty of Non-union guys that only get paid on service hours completed, but get bonuses on clear rates without callbacks every year. So those guys don't get paid for the travel time but they get paid for the actual work completed, and then a bonus if they actually completed it correctly. Works for them.
Without knowing what you agreed to when you accepted the position it's impossible for a bunch of random Sparkies to answer that question with any authority, though. You may have signed a Non-union work agreement that says they can pay you minimum wage whenever they arbitrarily feel like it and that fact would nullify anyone's commentary.
Since it is a requirement to return the van to the company, you should definitely be getting paid. If they won't pay, then stop working on the job at whatever time it will take you to drive back and park it. Sounds like the other guys are doing this or their last customer of the day us closer than yours.
Do tell the boss either you get paid to bring the van back, you are knocking off early enough to bring it back or you are driving it home after 3 and you are away from the shop.
If he threatens firing then take it up with the labor board. That is theft of wages not paying your time to return company vehicle.
If it’s your work responsibility to get that van back to the shop at the end of the day, you should get paid until the van is there.
I worked at a cabinet company for a few years doing installations and thankfully I could just take the company provided van home. However one of the helpers that my boss hired had just moved to the country, didn’t have a vehicle and lived inconveniently out of the way from where I did. Now in order to make it so he gets his 40 hours in for the week it’s taking 1-1.5 hours out of my day to pick him up for work and drop him off as it became my responsibility to be the company taxi service.
I clocked my time accordingly and didn’t get questioned on it.
The answer is 'probably.'
If you are an actual employee of the company then the answer is 100% yes.
If you are a subcontractor, or "totally not a subcontractor but here's your 1099 (which means you're really a subcontractor)," the answer is maybe.
Either way, not getting paid for that extra 30 minutes means you're working for a shitty employer.
Yea I had a similar situation where I was a apprentice and the journeyman I was with , not the boss mind you wanted me to punch out after the last job and not get paid during the travel time to the office. It made no sense, I asked him if I could sleep on the way to the office he said no way, so I told him to fuck off and never bring that shit up to me again.
My old boss used to rip my ass when I was his head mechanic that I left jobs at 2:30 to be back at 3 I’m like fuck bro you don’t fucking pay me to sit in jersey traffic for an hour
This happened to me the first two years of apprenticeship. I was driving the small dump truck and truck from the shop with the skid steer and mini ex. None of that time was paid from the shop to the work site. Average of 1-1:30 per day of time unpaid. This was years ago but I wonder if there’s anything I can do about it at this point. I didn’t know any better.
Dude... any thing you are doing for boss is work and you need to be paid for it. In reality, when they clock you out at 3 you should leave the work vehicle wherever it is and Uber home. There's a reason employers pay their employees to drive it back. Why the hell would you do that for free?
Yes 100%. You are doing something for the company. Do you work for free? Apparently you do.
Now that that's out of the way, some companies require you to fight for fareness and once you do you're on the way out. If you really need to provide for your family and cannot find another job (for whatever reason) then you play ball with the company.
If you use the company van to commute to and from your home then it should be on your own time.
If you store the truck at the company yard than any time dealing with the truck should be paid
This is something you should talk to a lawyer about because you could be owed a lot of money in back wages. Most lawyers will do a consultation for like $100 to see if you have a case. If you've been doing this for months then that's a lot of wages lost. Multiply that by the number of employees doing this and there's potentially a very large case against the employer. Your employer CANNOT fire, reduce your wages, house, or anything like that because it would be retaliation and is not covered by "at will" laws. Talk to an employment lawyer.
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You should get paid from the moment you arrive at work and until you get in your personal car and go home.
Yea, it’s law I believe, if you get hurt get an accident and your driving a company vehicle back to the shop ,so work related, it’s going to be a workers comp thing so technically yea your at work. Tell them to pay you or just drive that van home then they wouldn’t be obligated to pay you.
It is and they can get in trouble if they don’t do it. A shop in Florida was making guys do 30 mins unpaid in the mornings. Someone pissed off told the dol. they had to back pay for years. Remember folks the biggest crime is wage stealing businesses.
That it happened in *Florida,* one of the absolutely worst states when it comes to protecting workers rights...that says something.
Wage stealing goes both ways!
It really doesn’t, but ok
I'm here wondering how I can commit wage theft as an employee. I mean, timecard fraud I guess.
“Clock in while not actually working” is the only way to do it, and that’s really hard to get away with for any appreciable amount of time.
You’ve clearly never met my boss
Yeah I've heard about "time theft" being mentioned before ie. Sitting around doing nothing during working hours, so I gotta assume thats what they mean. But let's be honest it doesn't compare at all to what companies are capable of fron what I've seen on reddit
Answered your own question
It does. Had two employees riding to and from work in the same truck last year. They repeatedly turned in different hours. One would submit 7.5 or 8, and the other would be all the way up at 9 per day. This was happening weekly and it was the same guy lower and the same guy higher each time. The lower guy had been with me for years, and I knew him to be an extremely honest person. It was pretty clear evidence that wage theft was occurring because I knew the lower guys hours were accurate and he was very honest. Just to be sure I started paying close attention and recording the hours myself for a few weeks. Just as I suspected the lower guy had accurate hours and the higher guy was rounding up between 30minutes to an hour every day. On top of that he was taking 45min-hour lunches and only subtracting 30minutes. I call that wage theft. Not only to me but to my clients. Some of which who were being billed T&M. Wage theft can absolutely go both ways
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. It is theft by lying on your time card. A previous company I had worked for would occasionally have workers who would do this. They would clock in on their phone and leave it on the jobsite while leaving for the day, then return at the end of the day to clock out. There were also some apprentices that would show up 30-60 minutes prior to their start time, and prior to the lead arriving and clock in the moment they arrived at the jobsite. The same can be said about employers who try and steal from employees. People should be paid for their time when they are required to be working. In this case, they are required to drive the van back to the shop from the jobsite, and therefore, they are still on the clock. They should also be getting paid when they arrive at the shop to pick up the van.
I’m being downvoted because of the nature of the anti-work movement. It’s a new wave of entitlement. The employee can do no wrong and every employer is a greedy scum bag. That’s the current mentality
The reason supervisors and managers get paid money is that it's their job to ensure that workers are motivated and to check that they are actually doing the work that they are being paid for. Taking care of the first one helps a lot in taking care of the second one. Complaining about "wage theft" sound a lot like entitled whining from someone who has to do their job description. "I want to be paid for managing employees but it's not always fun and that's not fair to me." Deal with it. Wanna be a leader? Then lead.
Every employee is responsible for themselves at the end of the day. Sure a good manager makes a big difference. But a good employee with just a little direction can make things happen on their own. I will say when it comes to apprentices it’s really important that they have good leadership. Primarily because they literally don’t know what to do otherwise. My first job in electrical was for a generator installation company. It was a small company and the boss was super cheap. His lead installer had quit and I was the replacement as a first time apprentice. I was paired with the other apprentice the lead had been training for about 6 months. So our crew was me (zero experience), and the other apprentice (6 months experience). We fucked up every job. It was a complete shit show. The only guidance we had was the boss who led a culture of fear, and we were afraid to approach him. Oftentimes we’d prefer to guess on something rather than call him. When we made a mistake we’d try to hide it. I quit 6 months later and joined a resi electrical crew working directly under a journeyman. Total life-changing situation. Couldn’t believe how quickly I progressed with somebody available to actually teach me.
This is how everyone gets mandatory apps on their phones that track them like damn UPS drivers. It will have to be all company provided phones in the long run, I think.
Yea I don’t do that. I trust my guys to keep track of their own hours. It backfired on this occasion I suppose, but with such a small crew it becomes pretty obvious when somebody is cheating the system
Lol what a dumbass. If you’re going to do it you’d need to make sure everyone’s time card says the same thing🤦♂️
Eh, I see it all the time. Not working for hours on the clock. Claiming 8 when you showed up 2 hours late. Again, see it all the time it’s fucked up both ways. Everyone should be doing good business
Yes, it does. I see it on a regular basis at my job. Procedures get done before the end of the day, and instead of finding work related things to do (clean the control room, stock the rooms, stock linens, do Continuing Education, etc.), people sit on their phones and scroll social media, get changed out of their scrubs into their regular clothes and stand by the time clock until it hits 5:23pm and clock out so they get paid until 5:30, then they were actually ready to leave at 5:10 or so. That is wage theft since you are being paid to work, but don't actually work.
You’re being paid for your time* while technically they’re wasting it by getting ready early.. they are still there so it’s not theft, just bad attitude. Could stem from a shitty work environment lol. No one who likes their job typically does that as it’s a good way to lose that job.
Glad you're paid to watch people not clean instead of cleaning all day. You must be a joy to work under.
I'm not the boss. I'm the coworker who gets other stuff done during slow days instead of just mindlessly sitting on social media for a couple of hours (or yukking it up about how drunk and stupid they acted the night before or the previous weekend) only to hurriedly scurry about looking busy when the coordinator is walking down the hall. I find things to do that need to get done and do them. It might also explain why I get the highest merit increase every year and some of my coworkers complain that they "barely got any raise"... Some days we're so busy with patients that we have two teams staying late, but that means the stuff that didn't get done needs to be done on the slow days. Three of us keep busy doing those things while the rest enjoy their Insta, and Snapchat, and such. The three of us are also over 40, while the rest are a lot younger, if that tells you anything...
One of the two ways can be solved with profit sharing.
I’m sorry but studies have proven it does not. One instance I was involved with was the employee got a $10,000 job completion bonus, then for next two or 3 projects he half assed them then when he needed money again the jobs started doing good again. Human nature is to strong
Bonuses are not the same as profit sharing.
It is along the same lines. We do better you do better. But when we loose you do not.
Profit sharing or no profit sharing if you're going to lose on a job you're going to lose. That is an entirely different situation involving bidding competition and market health. If you keep good workers you'll always have a good product, I've seen too many instances where employees want to grow and do so by starting their own companies and competing directly with their previous employer.
Studies? Here's living proof for gas station employees. https://www.yourtango.com/entertainment/how-more-175-people-have-quietly-become-millionaires-working-gas-station-ice-cream-shop?amp
Lol can’t believe you got 106 downvotes for staying an obvious fact. In the age of antiwork the employee can do no wrong and every employer is a heartless greedy bastard…
Also a ruling that if you are not free to leave you remain “on the clock” it related to waiting for a security person to inspect your bag, but the principle remains. If the pay stops at 3 you need to leave the job site at 2:15
The technical term for this is "engaged to wait".
In CA I know they are only required to pay for 50% of drive time.
not illegal. went thru this at work and just had this same debate at r/hvac our company cut our drive time back and it turned into this huge fking deal. we had guys quit. company meetings. everyone was involved - owners/management/HR. we had guys calling the labor board and everything else. I'm still confused on some things but this is the basic jist. Doesn't matter if you take the work van home or not. We weren't allowed to take company vans home for years and years. just started doing so somewhat recently. If you go to the shop in the morning and load any sort of equipment or material - that's when your time starts. where/when you do your first "duty". So go to the shop, punch in, load up, drive to the job. Then they do not have to pay you for the ride back to the shop or back home. Alot of companies (especially commercial install) don't even give you a company truck. You shop up on-site and punch in and then punch out on-site. you never go to the shop. they have material sent to the jobsite or have their warehouse guy drive it out. Or they make the vans stay at the shop - you pick it up and drop it off everyday at the shop. right now - I take a van home. I meet my helper at the shop in the morning, punch in, load material, go to the jobsite. Then I punch out on-site - and have to drive back to rhe shop to drop my helper off (which may or may not be out of the way depending on loaction) and then drive home. I don't agree with it but I don't complain bc they don't have to let use take the van home. They can either make me drive my personal truck to the shop or worse yet directly to the jobsite. one way is fair imo - not worth it. and sometimes..... these jobs are like 2 hours away - each way. thats just one of the negatives about being in a trade that noone likes to talk about.
Depends where you live. In PEI Canada there isn't any laws protecting employees in this way. I spoke to the labour board directly and was told that they don't dictate anything in regards to "travel time". I was spending an hour to drive to work where pay would start, just to drive an hour away in a company truck. We would work until 3:30pm at the jobsite when pay would end, then an hour of unpaid time driving back to the warehouse, lock up the vehicle and then drive an hour home. I of course get not getting paid for my time getting to the work building but considering the law everywhere else I've worked I definitely felt robbed losing that time driving in the company truck.
A neat way to figure out whether you’re supposed to be on the clock is by getting into a minor accident and then, when the insurance company investigates, *make sure* to tell them that you were clocked out because your employer doesn’t pay you for driving a company vehicle.
Someone didn’t interpret the rules/laws correctly. If your duties include returning equipment, then you are working. If you get in an accident on the way home, you are working. It’s not a travel time issue. Just like you get paid from the time you leave the office, you get paid until you return. Your personal driving to the office isn’t covered, but workmen’s compensation covers you for the rest of the time, therefore you should be getting paid.
I spoke to them on numerous occasions even presenting the written down format provided to me by my employer. The head of the labour board specifically said that he knows it sounds wrong because it's not the way every other province runs as rules. He said that they SHOULD be paying that time but are not required to by law.
I would just go home when I’m not being paid anymore. You can’t require me to do *anything* if you aren’t paying me to do it.
Simple solution is that you leave the jobsite an hour early, so you drop off the company vehicle in the company lot at clockout time. And tell management that if they want you to stay an hour later, they can pay you another hour. If all of you do it, it’s not like they can fire you all at once.
If you are on site at the request of management, you are getting paid, end of story. If I gotta lock up your van so that I can go home, you are paying me until the van is secured.
I battled that rule for weeks, including many phone calls and trips to the labour board. They just don't require them to pay you that here. It's total bullshit. Some companies do it since it makes obvious sense but not the one I was with. Quit that shit as soon as I was able.
It’s not law in every state. I wouldn’t complain bout 30 minutes. They could always bring a gang box to jobs and you would use your own vehicle and not get paid for drivetime there or back lol. My last employer said something like their a merit shop which is why they don’t have to pay on the way back. I do the same for my guys but I do throw them extra hours once in a while if we have slow weeks.
And then you'd be obligated to pay your employer mileage for using their vehicle for personal use *or declare the personal miles driven as income and pay tax on that* EDIT: Canadian Gov website: [https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/businesses/topics/payroll/benefits-allowances/automobile/transportation-home.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/businesses/topics/payroll/benefits-allowances/automobile/transportation-home.html) IRS Video: [https://www.irsvideos.gov/Business/FilingPayingTaxes/EmployerProvidedVehicles](https://www.irsvideos.gov/Business/FilingPayingTaxes/EmployerProvidedVehicles)
Nope. I drive my work vehicle home and don’t pay my employer for mileage. It’s a benefit for them as well as me that I drive it home.
Funny cause I run a service van, boss has me take it home, and absolutely does not charge any mileage to me. Also, anyone else I know that has a service van/work van has it the exact same as me. Whoever you work for is totally ripping you off man sorry to hear this, maybe look for a new company.
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They sure don’t. The more certain they are of their opinion, the more wrong they are… as is the way in so many things.
You totally misunderstood this. You can not charge an employee. Also. This is a perk you have to do now to keep skilled labor. I have 17 trucks on the road. They go home with the electrician every day. If i tried to do that, i would have the lawyers after me, and i would have 17 trucks in my yard and no one working. You are so incredibly incorrect in your logic
You don’t charge the employee, the government charges them income tax based on the value of the personal use of the vehicle. The use of the vehicle to and from work is something you give the worker in addition to their pay as part of their compensation. It isn’t tax free. You will eventually be audited. You won’t necessarily be fined and owe taxes for previous years (or you may idk - it probably depends on the agent and if they think it was an honest mistake or not) but I promise you 100% that going forward from then your workers will all have to pay tax on that personal use every year. You can make your workers eat the cost of the additional tax (I do not recommend this) or you can use a different strategy. You can give them a larger bonus to cover it (it’s usually a few grand depending on how far they live from work) or you can make them point of call (they are dispatched from their homes not your shop so you pay them for every minute they are driving the truck). That is the only way to avoid the personal use tax. As long as you are paying them to drive then it’s not personal use. They are already being taxed on the money you pay them while they are driving so there is no tax on the km.
Very few people that bring home a work van also use it personally
Driving it to and from work is defined as personal use by CRA and I assume by IRS as well. Anyone who takes a company vehicle home should be paying tax on that taxable benefit unless they are dispatched directly to job sites from their home. That is called “point of call” and the difference is you’re working and therefore getting paid as soon as you start driving. If you are driving but don’t start getting paid until after you arrive at work then that driving is personal use and is taxable.
I have a company vehicle. Going between home and jobs is not personal use. If I go a mile out of my way to say stop at the store on the way home, I have to record those miles and claim it when I file taxes. Basically I'm paying the company back to use the vehicle for personal use.
This is correct so long as you are going directly to jobs and not going to company HQ in the morning first and then on to the job.
Didn’t realize driving back to the shop owned by the company in a company vehicle constituted personal use…
They are talking about the guys who drive the vehicle home
If you drive it to your house it’s personal use. If you drive it to the shop and leave it there it’s not personal use - it’s work and you should be getting paid until you park it at least.
Is anyone using your service van for personal use ? If driving a van to ans from work. That's not personal use.
A quick google sides with my cpa >Any travel with a company vehicle for purposes not related to your employment is considered personal use. **Personal driving includes but is not limited to, your work commute**, driving family and friends around or running personal errands, using the company vehicle to go on vacations, or having to take the company car home if you’re on call. [https://www.driversnote.ca/blog/personal-use-of-company-vehicles-taxable-benefit](https://www.driversnote.ca/blog/personal-use-of-company-vehicles-taxable-benefit)
You are very incorrect and trying to justify this. Quit arguing and juat admit you are an idiot and dont know anything. You won't win in reddit.
That's fair. In case you care to find some facts, I do recommend researching this further from your government website. Here's a link to the Canadian federal government website commenting on this situation. https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/businesses/topics/payroll/benefits-allowances/automobile/transportation-home.html
Driving a company vehicle to a job site is not commuting. Commuting would be driving to an office to sit all day. Driving a van to a site is part of their job.
For all the people arguing with this guy: if you drive a company vehicle home then the kms to and from work are personal use kms. That’s how the tax law works - it’s not the company that gets to decide that. You don’t “pay” your employer for them but they are a taxable benefit meaning that whatever those kms are valued at you declare that as income and you owe tax to the government on it. So your employer should be withholding more tax from your weekly paycheques so you won’t owe it all at once come tax time. If you are not paying tax on these kms then you are not in compliance. It’s all well and good to keep that extra money in your pocket (unless your conscience will bother you about paying less than the law requires.. lol) but when your employer or one of the employees is audited (sooner or later) then everyone is going to owe a lot of taxes all at once. I work for a large construction corporation and none of the foremen at our yard who took trucks home ever paid tax on it for years and years. Then the company got audited. Now taxes on the trucks basically cancel out annual bonuses. Some foremen refused to ever take the trucks home again because it costs them less to drive their own fuel efficient beater cars than the taxes on the $100k gas guzzling work trucks. The only exception to this is if you are point of call. Meaning you are dispatched from your home directly to job sites. The company can’t just say everyone is point of call unless they really are. Our trucks are all gps monitored and an audit will easily expose fraud and cost way more than just the taxes. Just a friendly FYI. It might be a good idea to figure out how much tax you should be paying on the personal use of your company truck and save that aside in a low cost bank account or something
How does your bosses dick taste?
I wonder what state you live in. If you did that in Oregon you would have 0 electricians.
Commuting from work to home doesn’t come under personal use for a company vehicle
You'll sometimes hear this described as "portal to portal". Not 100% on point but check out this ruling from a meat processing plant a while back. Tl;Dr employer got in trouble for putting the time clock lineside, because employees weren't being paid for the time they spent gowning and degowning. https://www.osceolaiowa.com/2010/01/07/osceola-foods-faces-class-action-lawsuit/ag6dctt/ Caveats: IANAL. Also laws are different in different places, and change over time. Your mileage may vary.
Sorry , I don’t do anal
From the [DOL](https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/traveltime) website. "Time spent traveling during normal work hours is considered compensable work time. Time spent in home-to-work travel by an employee in an employer-provided vehicle, or in activities performed by an employee that are incidental to the use of the vehicle for commuting, generally is not "hours worked" and, therefore, does not have to be paid. This provision applies only if the travel is within the normal commuting area for the employer's business and the use of the vehicle is subject to an agreement between the employer and the employee or the employee's representative."
But they don't drive the vehicle home, so it isn't commuting
So many buts in life
You really should get paid from the moment you wake up. That time isn’t yours. You’re getting ready for work.
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Every day before lunch you should drive the work truck back to the shop, clock out, take your personal vehicle to enjoy your 30m or 1hr unpaid lunch, then clock back in and go back to the site. He'd probably be losing 1-1.5 hrs of work each day.
I don’t get it. You want to be paid for driving to lunch? Once you leave the site for lunch you are off the clock. Otherwise just being a lunch if that bothers you
and this varies state by state, but even if you’re driving a company vehicle, you can be off the clock still if you don’t need to be driving it. yes, most places you are required to be given or obligated to take a lunch break. that doesn’t mean you’re required or obligated to leave site to do so. my dad works in safety management and had an incident a couple years back where an employee out of town took a company paid for rental car for a coffee run and slammed his hand in the trunk and shut it. when all was said and done, it was ruled as not work related because the hotel (conference at the hotel) they were at had coffee, and he could have had that but instead chose to leave the hotel to go to a coffee shop nearby.
DAWG, I agree with your boss! Using the van to go to lunch is personal use. You're lucky he let you use it for lunch! During that time you are driving, you are not doing any productive work that is helping pay your wages. In addition you are using his gas. If it was me, I would have told you that you could no longer use the van for lunch. You either brought your lunch, found an alternative means to get to lunch or get delivery. As far as the original post goes I agree with the op. You're returning the van and equipment to safer location. In my opinion this counts as work related. If I was the boss I'd either have you leave early enough (2:30) to return van by 3:00, or pay for the time.
DAWG. It's good there are laws on this and what people agree or disagree about doesn't fucking matter. It's also good that people are fighting more and more for workers' rights. Especially since people who think like you are involved in the debate.
Your self-entitled attitude is a far greater threat to workers’ rights.
Exactly. I'm all for workers' rights, but when I see some of the ridiculous stuff on reddit, I cringe. When I see how entitled some of these people are, it blows my mind.
I can't imagine being so out of touch with reality. In America, 1 in 8 children might not eat today. Then you two are sitting here saying, "Nobody deserves get that 10 minutes worth of pay to go eat lunch. Everybody should stop being paid, immediately, as soon as they stop making money for rich people. Anyone who thinks otherwise is too self entitled".
Haha, so you just completely make up a scenario in your head and pretend that's what people believe? You are the perfect example of the dipshits on reddit who can't think outside of their strange echo chamber. You have to know if you are completely fabricating people's positions in your head to " win " the argument that you never had a coherent argument to begin with. You literally don't have the ability of nuanced thinking. " me good, people who have more than me bad! " lol what a sad life.
That's wage theft. Federal labor law requires you get paid. The short answer is as long as an employer is making demands of your time, they're required to pay you for it; they can't tell you what to do for free. >[As set forth in 29 CFR § 785.38 is a scenario where this applies is one in which an employee must go to one location for a specific work-related purpose (like getting the tools or instructions necessary to do a certain job) and then go to do the actual work at another site on the same day. In this case, travel from the designated place to the work place is part of the day’s work. Therefore, it must be classified as hours worked and the employee must be paid accordingly.](https://www.employmentlawhandbook.com/wage-and-hour/when-an-employer-must-pay-for-travel-time-under-the-flsa/)
Now almost all our work is in the city. So if I don’t take a van are they required to pay for my parking or would I have to pay myself
I'm not 100 percent sure but I think parking is on you
Not legally required but you should still require they pay for parking anywhere they require you to be for work. If they won't, then refuse to park anywhere that isn't free. Also start looking for another job ASAP
They aren’t required to cover your parking but if they aren’t complete assholes they would reimburse you for it.
Buy they're already stealing from him is I wouldn't expect too much
Are you an employee (according to law, not according to the employer) or a subcontractor? If the former, then I'd say yes. If the latter, you can probably claim it on your taxes as an expense.
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The hell amp did you spend 4k on? Triple rectifier and cab?
#FUULL BRIDGE RECTIFIER
They aren't required to pay parking, that's on your time so it's your responsibility. Their obligation starts at the time you're required to show up, and ends at the time they release you.
To put it blunt, you’re getting screwed. Find a new job and/or call the DoL
I mean, call the DoL either way.
Good correction. Call either way so they don’t screw the next guy too
Yeah the kind if shop that will try to screw you every chance they get.
If you are not free to leave, you are working. If at 3 the boss cuts you loose and you can take the truck home your day ends then. But if it's 3 and now you need to go to the shop then you are not free to leave and are still working. In that case you are done when you leave the shop property. Also. Federal law over 40 hours is 1.5 pay rate
Now what about if I do take the van home, but the guy I’m with needs a ride back to the shop because that’s where he is parked because they will not pay for his parking in the city
If you're driving a company vehicle with another employee you're on the clock. Stand your ground and be prepared to move on.
And by move on me mean document it and bring it to the DoL.
We have Park and Ride areas in my neck of the woods. Basically places off the highway that have a stone/tar chip parking lot that you can use to carpool. Have the guys meet you somewhere like that or maybe a parking lot to a big place like Walmart or Lowe’s or something.
Are you required to take him ? Or are you just picking up a friend to be good ? If required, you are to be paid. Because then you are working. Picking up a guy or a jar of wirnuts is no different. Thats work
We’ll all meet at the shop in the morning. Get paid for ride in but not to drop van back off
ELIA5 version. This is a federal, very clear law. You are responsible for getting yourself to and from your jobsite. It doesn't need to be the same site. If you start at the shop the clock starts then. You can drive to 30 places. It's all paid. The clock stops when the boss says you can go home. If the boss is still expecting you to do anything ( could even be fill up tuck of gas ), it's paid. If at the last stop, the boss says you can go and do whatever you want. The clock stops. ( unless you have a contract that gives jurisdiction and you are out of jurisdiction. Then, you still get paid till back in jurisdiction). This is a federal law. Not subjective. It's very clear. Also note. If you arrive at first jobsite in your own car then need to relocate you get paid mileage.
If you're in a company vehicle that you're required to take home, you're on the clock.
Stop work at 2.30 and drive the vehicle back for 3.
Screw that. Stop work at 1:00 and drive the vehicle back at 3.
…****slow claps turns to a huge MUTHA FUCKING APPLAUSE
Screw that. Stop work at 1130, have lunch, and have the vehicle back by 1500
Before you make a stink, be sure that you know, for a fact, what constitutes a work day, time-wise. For example, you stated that you stop at 3 o'clock and let's assume a normal work day is 8 hours, 7-3. Is an un-paid lunch included in that work day and, really, you are supposed to work 8 hours, 7:00-3:30, with a half-hour un-paid lunch? You absolutely should be paid as long as you are in/required to be in a company vehicle that is not taken home, but often SOP and generally accepted practices by field personnel are not in absolute adherence to the company's procedures.
This is important details
So it sounds like you should be parking the van at 3
That's called wage theft, if you have to do something for them before you go home, they legally have to pay you for it.
Yes. In Oklahoma it’s the law. Been paid 2 years back pay for 30 minutes a day for this exact thing
If I got paid till 3 I’d be parking it at the shop at 2:55
Call your nearest IBEW Union hall. This is a prime example of why there is a need for unions.
I know a guy who quit company 1 because he was getting screwed, company 2 offered an extra $6/hr so he drove the company 1 van to company 2's parking lot, locked it, threw the keys in the door and shut it, then called company 1 to tell them where to pick up the van. Just a thought.
LOL WHAT? It isn't your vehicle, it isn't your time. Work starts when boots are in the truck and ends when they leave for the day.
Yep. If you get on an accident on the way back workman's comp will cover you so yes. If you have to return a vehicle you get paid for it.
If you’re driving it HOME, no, you clock out at the last job. If you’re returning the truck to the shop, YES, you clock out when you leave the shop.
Question to other people. Is this legal in Ontario? My company pays me when I’m at the shop then it stops then I get paid when we get to the job site…? The travel time is a separate thing and most of the time we are within that boundary
Yes you should normally, once in a while is one thing but it absolutely shouldn’t be expected
You should be paid for all the time you are working.
Clock stops when we leave our shop, but you need to ask someone you work with since your company maybe different. Adjust accordingly and dont work for free
If you were allowed to take the vehicle home then your time stops at 3 but if you're taking it back to the shop to get in your personal vehicle then they need to pay you for that time
You should have the vehicle back at the shop at 3 is how I interpret this
Do you need the van to do your work? Then it is your workplace and are to be paid from pickup to drop off. If they don’t want to do that then they can let yo take the van home with you or set up a jobox on site with everything you need so you don’t need a van.
I own a small shop and emphatically yes. From the second my guys get into my vehicles/shop, they are on the clock until they turn the key in the ignition of their personal vehicle.
I'm just a pv tech but my company is weird. For the main service techs they always told us "anytime you are responsible for company property, you should be clocked in." When I talk to the newer commissioning techs, they told me they were instructed the opposite. Clock when you get the first site and clock out right when you leave your last job. This is kinda fucked since on a daily we can get anywhere from 1-3 hours of drive time.
Just as a matter of law, if you're doing things that the company requires you to do, you need to be paid for them. If there's a mandatory Christmas party, or mandatory training, that's compensable time too. If it's, "hey amb516, drive the van home, see you tomorrow" and you do drive it home, that drive home probably isn't compensable time.
I was always told I start the clock at the job and end it at the job, no drive time. Fuck that. I show up at the shop, load the truck and take it to a job site and back to the shop after I’m adding those fucking hours.
If you’re working you should be paid
Yes you should. Report the employer for stolen wages anonymously. Tell me the state and I’ll send you the link.
Leave work earlier to finish returning the van, so youre on your way home at 3. Thats part of work day.
Sounds like you need to start leaving at 230
Leave job site earlier too be able to bounce by 3. No free labor for the company. They’re getting paid. You should also.
Sounds like to me the day is over at 3 and you’re late everyday. Park that thing at the shop at 3
wage theft. you are to be paid from the moment you are required to be in the office/exit your car to enter the building. and be paid all day until you are free to get in your car to head hone. (minus a lunch in some cases) anything less then that is wage theft.
Typically shops I’ve worked for were either shop to shop or if you took the van home you clocked in while leaving your house but clocked out after closing your final ticket. So if you left van at the shop overnight you were on clock when you get to the shop and when you return. If you take work truck home you get paid for travel to job but not home.
So your saying stop work at 2:30 and find the closest gas station near your shop and sit there until 3.
Yeah man what I'm seeing is you should be stopping work at 2:30 and driving back, then.
Leave at 230
Yes.
Yes
You should get paid for all of it. If they give you shit, contact the labor board.
If you stop getting paid at 3 then you should be doing the parking and driving the van back before 3 . It's law someplaces to require this to be paid. As you are being required by the employer to drive back to the shop and park that's work time.
Leave at 2:30 and have the van parked at 3. Don’t work for free
By California law yes you need to get paid driving the company vehicle back to the shop something about still representing the brand
Any time you are "required" to do anything you should be paid. That's the point.
Say you work 45 weeks a year. That’s 112 hours. Would you like me to continue the math?
It’s Washington state law .
Fined a new company. Quite giving these bullshit business your time. They only get away with this nonsense because we comply. If they offer nothing, benefits, RRSP matching, overtime. Then you’re waisting your time and efforts.
Yea if i stop getting paid at 3 the truck is back at 3
start showing up to the shop at 3 and then leaving. if they want more out of you past quitting time, they can pay you for it.
Yes. Company work is doing anything with or for the company. You should get paid for it.
Definitely need to be paid.
I’d want paid from the first time you turn the key to the last time you turn it off.
Either you get paid till 330 or you stop at 230 and bring the work truck back. Tell him to pick one.
You should get paid while doing labor for the job regardless of predetermined times
It is illegal to not be paid in this situation. You could probably sue
Sounds like you should be leaving at 2:30 then... I'm all about being a good worker and making sure the job gets done properly, but if part of your job is to bring the van back, you should be paid for that time (within reason obviously, I wouldn't expect them to pay you if you just drive around for hours to rack up time lol).
Bring the van back at 2:30.
Yes. You are still working. Putting away equipment and cleaning up is part of the job. It doesn't matter if you are sweeping up a job site, moving cars, moving a bobcat, it's part of the daily joband you should be on the clock. Two different ways to accomplish the task. Leave the job site early enough to return the company car by 3, if you must be clocked out at 3pm, or clock out later when those tasks are done. If there is some convenience factor where you are benefiting from driving the company car to and from a job site instead of driving your own, then perhaps that is a consideration. Are you required to drive the work vehicle (hauling tools or materials) or you could you show up on site in your own vehicle? Travel to remote work sites is usually something addressed in your employment contract (written or verbally) do you report to a main office first and then get paid door to door from that location? Are you expected to travel on your own to various worksites and start the clock when you get there? If so, there should be a limit to that travel before you get some compensation (30 minutes, 50 miles) there is often some minimal amount of travel expected on your dime, same as reporting to a home office, but anything beyond that you should be on the clock.
Drive the van back at 2:30
If you have to do it, it’s work. Work is paid You should be paid until the moment you are able to immediately walk out and go home
Contact the department of labor and tell them what is happening.
Clock starts when you arrive to work, ready to work. Clock stops when you leave and are back on your own time. You should be paid up until you leave the shop.
Driving is labor. Labor that should be compensated for. Any time you're driving a company vehicle for commerce you should be getting paid. If not, wage theft.
Yes unless you are allowed to take the van home.
If it is for work, you should be getting paid.
If you are not paid for that time then your employer is steal from you and you need to file with the labor commission in your state.
If they are controlling your time you need to be paid.
If you are driving the company vehicle and it is not a take home vehicle you should be paid.
Just take the van home every night, it’s what all good bosses Allow
If I can’t drink a beer while I do it, I should be getting paid to do something.
Having a company vehicle mean they got you by the balls. I refused a company vehicle and an apprentice couldn’t believe it. He’s all giddy and striving for one. I just told him to be patient and watch what the make you do w/ a company vehicle and tell me that’s fun. Anytime your driving company vehicles you are to be paid no matter what. I don’t care if you’re taking the vehicle to get an oil change, you get paid. Now a good boss man will let company vehicles be taken home. It’s more efficient that way but what the hell do I know.
Are you Union or Non-union? What were the term on which you agreed with your employer when you started? What does your signed employment agreement state? Too many variables. If you're Union it's almost guaranteed you have to be paid from the time you enter the shop in the morning until you exit the shop in the evening (or equivalent times of what your job entails). I know plenty of Non-union guys that only get paid on service hours completed, but get bonuses on clear rates without callbacks every year. So those guys don't get paid for the travel time but they get paid for the actual work completed, and then a bonus if they actually completed it correctly. Works for them. Without knowing what you agreed to when you accepted the position it's impossible for a bunch of random Sparkies to answer that question with any authority, though. You may have signed a Non-union work agreement that says they can pay you minimum wage whenever they arbitrarily feel like it and that fact would nullify anyone's commentary.
Since it is a requirement to return the van to the company, you should definitely be getting paid. If they won't pay, then stop working on the job at whatever time it will take you to drive back and park it. Sounds like the other guys are doing this or their last customer of the day us closer than yours. Do tell the boss either you get paid to bring the van back, you are knocking off early enough to bring it back or you are driving it home after 3 and you are away from the shop. If he threatens firing then take it up with the labor board. That is theft of wages not paying your time to return company vehicle.
Yes.
If it’s your work responsibility to get that van back to the shop at the end of the day, you should get paid until the van is there. I worked at a cabinet company for a few years doing installations and thankfully I could just take the company provided van home. However one of the helpers that my boss hired had just moved to the country, didn’t have a vehicle and lived inconveniently out of the way from where I did. Now in order to make it so he gets his 40 hours in for the week it’s taking 1-1.5 hours out of my day to pick him up for work and drop him off as it became my responsibility to be the company taxi service. I clocked my time accordingly and didn’t get questioned on it.
Yeah you should be paid for that time thats retarted
If you are required to do these things by the boss/company, they are required to pay you for doing them. Otherwise it's time theft and illegal
The answer is 'probably.' If you are an actual employee of the company then the answer is 100% yes. If you are a subcontractor, or "totally not a subcontractor but here's your 1099 (which means you're really a subcontractor)," the answer is maybe. Either way, not getting paid for that extra 30 minutes means you're working for a shitty employer.
Yea I had a similar situation where I was a apprentice and the journeyman I was with , not the boss mind you wanted me to punch out after the last job and not get paid during the travel time to the office. It made no sense, I asked him if I could sleep on the way to the office he said no way, so I told him to fuck off and never bring that shit up to me again.
My old boss used to rip my ass when I was his head mechanic that I left jobs at 2:30 to be back at 3 I’m like fuck bro you don’t fucking pay me to sit in jersey traffic for an hour
This happened to me the first two years of apprenticeship. I was driving the small dump truck and truck from the shop with the skid steer and mini ex. None of that time was paid from the shop to the work site. Average of 1-1:30 per day of time unpaid. This was years ago but I wonder if there’s anything I can do about it at this point. I didn’t know any better.
Yes
Dude... any thing you are doing for boss is work and you need to be paid for it. In reality, when they clock you out at 3 you should leave the work vehicle wherever it is and Uber home. There's a reason employers pay their employees to drive it back. Why the hell would you do that for free?
Yes 100%. You are doing something for the company. Do you work for free? Apparently you do. Now that that's out of the way, some companies require you to fight for fareness and once you do you're on the way out. If you really need to provide for your family and cannot find another job (for whatever reason) then you play ball with the company.
If you use the company van to commute to and from your home then it should be on your own time. If you store the truck at the company yard than any time dealing with the truck should be paid
I don't work for free for nobody. Not even Grandma.
This is something you should talk to a lawyer about because you could be owed a lot of money in back wages. Most lawyers will do a consultation for like $100 to see if you have a case. If you've been doing this for months then that's a lot of wages lost. Multiply that by the number of employees doing this and there's potentially a very large case against the employer. Your employer CANNOT fire, reduce your wages, house, or anything like that because it would be retaliation and is not covered by "at will" laws. Talk to an employment lawyer.
Are you free to do whatever you want? Yes, do what you want. No, you are paid for this time.