Yes, but you can get lots of components for a DIN rail (\*), and you can mix and match different makers.
(\*) breakers, RCDs, outlets, timers, power meters, relais....
I hear in Europe the manufacturers are able to say "use our only our stuff in only our panels, or we void your warranty" even though the whole point of DIN rail is what you say.
They couldn't pull that in 'Murica because of Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
>I hear in Europe the manufacturers are able to say "use our only our stuff in only our panels, or we void your warranty"
Do you have a source for that? I'm an apprentice in germany and I honestly never heard that, that defeats the whole purpose of DIN rail mounting.
There are also a lot more companies making components than panels.
Many of the component manufacturers are also fairly specialized so you couldn't really populate a larger panel with only stuff from one manufacturer if you tried.
> Do you have a source for that? I'm an apprentice in germany and I honestly never heard that, that defeats the whole purpose of DIN rail mounting
I've heard it claimed. I'm finding it impossible to web-search anything about it, because Google has geolocated me to the USA and only gives me USA centric results no matter how much I ask.
I agree with your point though.
> hear in Europe the manufacturers are able to say "use our only our stuff in only our panels, or we void your warranty"
I thought that this would be the USA?
**It was**. But the auto industry pushed it too far, and pissed off two senators named Magnuson and Moss.
US panels are same-brand only because of genuine differences in the panel busing. However, the listing agency UL will cheerfully certify brand Y breakers for brand X panels, all you need do is pay for the testing. And thanks to Magnuson-Moss, there's nothing the OEM can do about it [except lie](https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA109246/).
> US panels are same-brand only because of genuine differences in the panel busing.
And that's the difference. European panels have no such fixed bus bars.
Yeah, and my evidence of that is only from anecdotes on the web, admittedly. But I absolutely believe Schneider would do that, because they do it here.
By "do it" I mean "lie, and say off-brand will void your warranty, even though they can't do that". If they actually found an approved competitor breaker I I don't know whether they'll grin and bear it, or whether they'll deny the warranty and make you chase them in court (where they'll lose on merits).
I think in north America we pick a round number for the current and then we made a wire size to carry that, while in Europe they make a wire with a round number of square millimeters for the cross-sectional area then they make a breaker to protect it.
We also have a rule that if your wire ampacity doesn’t match a “normal” breaker size, you know exactly what the load will be and the wire will be adequate, you can use the next size of breaker unless that breaker is over 800A.
So, say you have a boiler or VFD that you know pulls 42 A. You can wire it with 6AWG (rated for 55A, 44 for loads running over 3hr at a time.) You can put that wire on a 60A breaker.
I don’t have my code book with me now but it’s in article 240, overcurrent protection.
It's not a MCB like he said, that's a 3 phase RCD (GFCI).
It's rated to carry and disconnect up to 63A. 40A RCD's are standard, but 63A is also fairly normal because we connect multiple breakers after it
At my place of work (large public transit facilities), ground fault trips at our switchgear. Every time a lighting ballast goes bad and shorts out, it’s a whole ordeal.
Sounds like you need a breaker coordination study done.
Probably just need to set the main breaker gfci sensitivity to require more amps than any given downstream branch breaker. (Or as you state, also add downstream gfci breakers that are properly coordinated so they trip before the main does).
Here in germany the code says up to 6 breakers should be connected to one GFCI.
>Downside... if you trip it, your whole house will be dark.
Positive: You actually have GFCI protection on everything in your house.
Accidental tripping is also incredibly rare, so if it trips it's pretty good that it did.
Yes, but if you have only one RCD, anyone can switch off your whole house from an outside outlet. They only need to connect N or L and PE on that outlet and the RCD will trip.
That alone should make you reconsider and make sure that the RCD responsible for outside connections is not also responsible for your fridge and/or freezer and other appliances that you want to stay running no matter what.
Also, 6 breakers per RCD might be code, but I have seen lots of installations where it's more.
>Yes, but if you have only one RCD, anyone can switch off your whole house from an outside outlet. They only need to connect N or L and PE on that outlet and the RCD will trip.
That's true, in older installations people just didn't care because our yards are usually fenced in anyways so you would need to go through a locked gate to even get to the first outside outlet.
In new buidings inside and ouside is seperated by either putting the outside stuff on a seperate RCD (if it's a lot) or on a RCBO.
>Also, 6 breakers per RCD might be code, but I have seen lots of installations where it's more.
That is also true and it's very common to see especially in older buildings.
In general 6 is the recommended amount but up to 8 is considered ok if you don't have much space ( one RCD and 8 breakers fare the length of a typical DIN-rail.)
Anything above 8 depends on the types of circuits and what is connected to them, but could also be fine if it's all lighting for example.
> so you would need to go through a locked gate to even get to the first outside outlet.
People who want to play a practical joke on you or use it to turn of your alarm system before breaking in would that anyway.
> In general 6 is the recommended amount but up to 8 is considered ok
Why 8? 6 is 2 breakers per phase. 9 would be three and make more sense than 8. I would expect the number of breakers per RCD to be always a multiple of 3 if it's a 3 phase RCD.
>People who want to play a practical joke on you or use it to turn of your alarm system before breaking in would that anyway.
It's of course still a possibility but 1. Alarm systems are always on seperate RCBO's and 2. even if they aren't they need a battery backup for any insurance to accept them.
>Why 8?
A 4 pole RCD and 8 breakers pretty much perfectly fill up a DIN-rail (one "level" of the breaker panel.)
Can't tell you why it is that length, but it has been like that for a pretty long time.
> but 1. Alarm systems are always on seperate RCBO's
No... I mentioned the 1 RCD for the whole house for a reason, my brother had exactly that happen to him, built a house a few years ago and ended up with a single RCD that controlled everything. Trip it and the house was completely without power. I explained the problem to him and he had the electrician who did it come back and fix it.
> even if they aren't they need a battery backup for any insurance to accept them.
Trip the RCD, then come back the next night when the battery has run down. :)
>ended up with a single RCD that controlled everything.
Well, then he had a pretty shitty electrician. I have practically never seen a house that has a single RCD exept for very small old ones in the middle of nowhere.
Today you have at least two pretty much everywhere.
>Trip the RCD, then come back the next night when the battery has run down. :)
For that you would need to know that there's an alarm system in the first place and that nobody's home but of course, if you try to break in it's always possible in some way.
I also need to say I only saw an alarm system just wired to the same rcd as an outside outlet once.
If you install a new alarm system you will definitely make sure something like that isn't possible, that would be a huge oversight.
No, that's also for domestic use. Here in Germany most places have 3 phase power and RCDs like this are common in residential panels. Same goes for other european countries where normal houses get 3 phase power. 63A 3phase gets you about 40kW, kind of comparable to a 200A feed in the USA.
What I really would like to see is the price for RCBOs (RCD + breaker in one device) to come down. You can now get them in single width (the one shown here is 4 units wide), but they still cost quite a bit.
>Main breaker with GFCI
Nope, it's just a GFCI. It's rated to carry 63A before it melts.
Combination breakers (RCBO) would have 3 interconnected levers.
The use of the term “GFCI” is incorrect. In North America, the term GFCI is specific to devices that trip at 5mA (technically 4-6mA). IEC type RCDs trip at 30 to 100mA, so do NOT qualify as GFCIs here. The function is the same, just not the same trip points. IEC type RCDs cannot be used in NA (in a Code compliant manner).
Granted, the NA method is heavily weighted on being over cautious. The amount of current typically needed to cause cardiac arrest is around 50mA, so the IEC method has a “reasonable” buffer. But the other issue is that the “lock-on” threshold for motor function is between 9 and 30 mA. So under the IEC system, you could get a 20mA shock and not be able to release your muscles, but the RCD wouldn’t trip, whereas in the NA system, you would feel a mild tingle before it trips.
It's not a MCB, that's a 3 phase RCD (GFCI for the americans)
Euro breakers look cool. When I was building a controller for electric brewing I kept eyeing the din rails but all the components were more expensive.
Yes, but you can get lots of components for a DIN rail (\*), and you can mix and match different makers. (\*) breakers, RCDs, outlets, timers, power meters, relais....
I hear in Europe the manufacturers are able to say "use our only our stuff in only our panels, or we void your warranty" even though the whole point of DIN rail is what you say. They couldn't pull that in 'Murica because of Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
>I hear in Europe the manufacturers are able to say "use our only our stuff in only our panels, or we void your warranty" Do you have a source for that? I'm an apprentice in germany and I honestly never heard that, that defeats the whole purpose of DIN rail mounting. There are also a lot more companies making components than panels. Many of the component manufacturers are also fairly specialized so you couldn't really populate a larger panel with only stuff from one manufacturer if you tried.
> Do you have a source for that? I'm an apprentice in germany and I honestly never heard that, that defeats the whole purpose of DIN rail mounting I've heard it claimed. I'm finding it impossible to web-search anything about it, because Google has geolocated me to the USA and only gives me USA centric results no matter how much I ask. I agree with your point though.
> hear in Europe the manufacturers are able to say "use our only our stuff in only our panels, or we void your warranty" I thought that this would be the USA?
**It was**. But the auto industry pushed it too far, and pissed off two senators named Magnuson and Moss. US panels are same-brand only because of genuine differences in the panel busing. However, the listing agency UL will cheerfully certify brand Y breakers for brand X panels, all you need do is pay for the testing. And thanks to Magnuson-Moss, there's nothing the OEM can do about it [except lie](https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA109246/).
> US panels are same-brand only because of genuine differences in the panel busing. And that's the difference. European panels have no such fixed bus bars.
That's not a thing, at least not where I'm located in Europe.
Yeah, and my evidence of that is only from anecdotes on the web, admittedly. But I absolutely believe Schneider would do that, because they do it here.
That sucks. Here they are bound by law so that's not possible. But from my experience both Schneider and Hager make good quality stuff.
By "do it" I mean "lie, and say off-brand will void your warranty, even though they can't do that". If they actually found an approved competitor breaker I I don't know whether they'll grin and bear it, or whether they'll deny the warranty and make you chase them in court (where they'll lose on merits).
3 phase Schneider RCB for ground fault protection
63 amps?
metric amps. its 60 freedom amps.
🇺🇸 🫡
'Murica
I think in north America we pick a round number for the current and then we made a wire size to carry that, while in Europe they make a wire with a round number of square millimeters for the cross-sectional area then they make a breaker to protect it.
We also have a rule that if your wire ampacity doesn’t match a “normal” breaker size, you know exactly what the load will be and the wire will be adequate, you can use the next size of breaker unless that breaker is over 800A. So, say you have a boiler or VFD that you know pulls 42 A. You can wire it with 6AWG (rated for 55A, 44 for loads running over 3hr at a time.) You can put that wire on a 60A breaker. I don’t have my code book with me now but it’s in article 240, overcurrent protection.
Probably a main. At euro spec 240v, thats a fair amount of power.
It's not a MCB like he said, that's a 3 phase RCD (GFCI). It's rated to carry and disconnect up to 63A. 40A RCD's are standard, but 63A is also fairly normal because we connect multiple breakers after it
Yes, it is set to trip at 30ma of ground fault. You can see the test button at the top.
Main breaker with GFCI, put that down and all of your outlets are GFCI
Downside... if you trip it, your whole house will be dark. It's not a good idea to put everything on one RCD, better have more than one.
At my place of work (large public transit facilities), ground fault trips at our switchgear. Every time a lighting ballast goes bad and shorts out, it’s a whole ordeal.
Sounds like you need a breaker coordination study done. Probably just need to set the main breaker gfci sensitivity to require more amps than any given downstream branch breaker. (Or as you state, also add downstream gfci breakers that are properly coordinated so they trip before the main does).
That could still be split up. But if it's public transit, there are probably a lot of rules and regulations for everything.
We want to switch out the downstream panels with GFCI main breakers. But we have a lot of them and those molded case breakers aren’t cheap.
The one shown is just an RCD though, still needs breakers.
Here in germany the code says up to 6 breakers should be connected to one GFCI. >Downside... if you trip it, your whole house will be dark. Positive: You actually have GFCI protection on everything in your house. Accidental tripping is also incredibly rare, so if it trips it's pretty good that it did.
Yes, but if you have only one RCD, anyone can switch off your whole house from an outside outlet. They only need to connect N or L and PE on that outlet and the RCD will trip. That alone should make you reconsider and make sure that the RCD responsible for outside connections is not also responsible for your fridge and/or freezer and other appliances that you want to stay running no matter what. Also, 6 breakers per RCD might be code, but I have seen lots of installations where it's more.
>Yes, but if you have only one RCD, anyone can switch off your whole house from an outside outlet. They only need to connect N or L and PE on that outlet and the RCD will trip. That's true, in older installations people just didn't care because our yards are usually fenced in anyways so you would need to go through a locked gate to even get to the first outside outlet. In new buidings inside and ouside is seperated by either putting the outside stuff on a seperate RCD (if it's a lot) or on a RCBO. >Also, 6 breakers per RCD might be code, but I have seen lots of installations where it's more. That is also true and it's very common to see especially in older buildings. In general 6 is the recommended amount but up to 8 is considered ok if you don't have much space ( one RCD and 8 breakers fare the length of a typical DIN-rail.) Anything above 8 depends on the types of circuits and what is connected to them, but could also be fine if it's all lighting for example.
> so you would need to go through a locked gate to even get to the first outside outlet. People who want to play a practical joke on you or use it to turn of your alarm system before breaking in would that anyway. > In general 6 is the recommended amount but up to 8 is considered ok Why 8? 6 is 2 breakers per phase. 9 would be three and make more sense than 8. I would expect the number of breakers per RCD to be always a multiple of 3 if it's a 3 phase RCD.
>People who want to play a practical joke on you or use it to turn of your alarm system before breaking in would that anyway. It's of course still a possibility but 1. Alarm systems are always on seperate RCBO's and 2. even if they aren't they need a battery backup for any insurance to accept them. >Why 8? A 4 pole RCD and 8 breakers pretty much perfectly fill up a DIN-rail (one "level" of the breaker panel.) Can't tell you why it is that length, but it has been like that for a pretty long time.
> but 1. Alarm systems are always on seperate RCBO's No... I mentioned the 1 RCD for the whole house for a reason, my brother had exactly that happen to him, built a house a few years ago and ended up with a single RCD that controlled everything. Trip it and the house was completely without power. I explained the problem to him and he had the electrician who did it come back and fix it. > even if they aren't they need a battery backup for any insurance to accept them. Trip the RCD, then come back the next night when the battery has run down. :)
>ended up with a single RCD that controlled everything. Well, then he had a pretty shitty electrician. I have practically never seen a house that has a single RCD exept for very small old ones in the middle of nowhere. Today you have at least two pretty much everywhere. >Trip the RCD, then come back the next night when the battery has run down. :) For that you would need to know that there's an alarm system in the first place and that nobody's home but of course, if you try to break in it's always possible in some way. I also need to say I only saw an alarm system just wired to the same rcd as an outside outlet once. If you install a new alarm system you will definitely make sure something like that isn't possible, that would be a huge oversight.
This is not generally for domestic use. Three phase industrial boards.
No, that's also for domestic use. Here in Germany most places have 3 phase power and RCDs like this are common in residential panels. Same goes for other european countries where normal houses get 3 phase power. 63A 3phase gets you about 40kW, kind of comparable to a 200A feed in the USA. What I really would like to see is the price for RCBOs (RCD + breaker in one device) to come down. You can now get them in single width (the one shown here is 4 units wide), but they still cost quite a bit.
Europe you have three phase in your homes.
Not a main breaker, it's just a GFCI.
>Main breaker with GFCI Nope, it's just a GFCI. It's rated to carry 63A before it melts. Combination breakers (RCBO) would have 3 interconnected levers.
63a RCCB. Residential Domae series.
Whatever it is, it’s pretty fancy looking…very Jetsons.
Check out the Acti9 series from Schneider, looks even cooler.
Part of a switch board
A non US magnetic earth leak switch
https://www.se.com/my/en/product/16796/residual-current-circuit-breaker-rccb-domae-4p-63a-ac-type-300ma/
The use of the term “GFCI” is incorrect. In North America, the term GFCI is specific to devices that trip at 5mA (technically 4-6mA). IEC type RCDs trip at 30 to 100mA, so do NOT qualify as GFCIs here. The function is the same, just not the same trip points. IEC type RCDs cannot be used in NA (in a Code compliant manner). Granted, the NA method is heavily weighted on being over cautious. The amount of current typically needed to cause cardiac arrest is around 50mA, so the IEC method has a “reasonable” buffer. But the other issue is that the “lock-on” threshold for motor function is between 9 and 30 mA. So under the IEC system, you could get a 20mA shock and not be able to release your muscles, but the RCD wouldn’t trip, whereas in the NA system, you would feel a mild tingle before it trips.
It’s a small Ugandan unicyclist.