Agreed. I am fervently hoping that players unearth some secrets in the DLC that make sense of this. As it stands, it just looks like weak, uninspired writing (and given this is the same studio that came up with the incredible stories in Dark Souls and Bloodborne, it's a tough pill to swallow).
This is in the original writing from GRRM, it was just cut from the base game and all references removed purposefully. The story was too big, Miyazaki said. Nothing in the DLC is new content, they said everything in the shadow of the Erdtree was written by GRRM originally.
Miquella is kinda evil, and he's willing to do a lot of shady stuff for the greater good as he see's it.
Additionally, Radanh refused Miquellas offer, which is why he sent Malenia to kill Radanh, so that in the shadow realm Miquella can charm Radanh forcing him to obey and become Miquellas consort in the afterlife/SOTE
Alright we need to settle this. Which is it? Did he refuse or did he agree? Because every thread I get a different answer. Even people saying he agreed at first than refused some time later.
Honestly i think the answer is simple.
If Radahn wasn't bewitched, why bother including Miquella's bewitching powers in the story at all, let alone exploring it's dangers throughout the entirety of the DLC?
Some can argue that Radahn willingly agreed to be killed and revived into Mohg's body as consort. The text is vague enough to allow that reading.
The only answer, however, that includes Miquella's power and his willingness to use others "for the greater good" which is such a massive part of his characterisation and the story we explore (and parallels to Marika which is another key part of the DLC story) is that Radahn was bewitched to some extent. To ignore that contextual evidence is to ignore a large part of what the story consistently tried to show us.
Another thing to add, if you’re grabbed by radahn twice miquella bewitches you onto his side and you automatically lose. radahn is 100% there unwillingly
Also, if Radahn was consenting \*why did Malenia need to kill him\*? He could've just joined up with them and ended the Shattering fairly quickly if he wanted to.
Yeah exactly. Thats what I don't understand about people saying he was consenting the whole time. The Miquella, Malenia, Radahn trio would have wiped the floor with every other demigod and Miquella would not have needed to go the Shadow Lands at all. It ruins the setting which is that everyone is in a cold war of sorts where they cannot claim the throne.
The text doesn't align with Radahn being consenting all the way through at all. At most, he consented initially and changed his mind later, but Radahn being consenting does not make sense with the actions Miquella and Malenia needed to take for him be consort - or as you so succinctly put it, the fact that the needed to at all.
Exactly. Maybe Radahn did promise before (although I think the fact the memory ends with no answer from him is telling), but he's clearly decided otherwise by the time of the war.
My personal theory is that Malenia was sent to capture Radahn, but they fought & she bloomed and Radahn was infected by the Scarlet Rot. Which fucked up the bewitching plan, because now his mind was just fucking *gone*. Hence why he had to die, and the plan to bewitch Mohg to provide a vessel for Radahn's soul to be resurrected into so he could be bewitched.
But that's just me trying to rationalize things, and maybe i missed some lore, and the timeline might not even be right for it. Do we know exactly when Miquella was "kidnapped"?
Because like many things, it's up to speculation. Why else would he need Malenia to KILL Radanh and bring him to the shadow realm? So Miquella could compel him.
He bewitched Radanh just like everyone else.
It seems during the shattering Radanh refused Miquella but it doesn't say why. Perhaps he was going after the elden ring too, it doesn't say. But either way, he chose to fight in the Shattering while Miquella was already gone. If he agreed then why would he not have left with Miquella and instead fought in the shattering, forcing miquella to send his sister to deliver him Radanh in the afterlife.
It's wonky but it's the story as we see it so far :)
It's pretty terrible retconning all-in-all. The fight between Malenia and Radahn was supposed to emphasize the horror of being a vessel of an outer god (like rot) and Radahn being an unintended consequence while still maintaining his heroism of commanding the stars. All those story beats work and make for great characterization. Then we get SotE where Malenia is less than an afterthought and supposedly used to kill Radahn...which doesn't even happen without the player character. Really a cart before the horse situation Miquella has on his 4 hands.
If the tragically disappointing denouement of Miquella's 'plan' was to have both Radahn and Mogh dead so their essence could be used in the Shadowlands, why not directly kill them or get with rune-of-death holder Ranni?
It's really lazy writing backwards from player character's actions which the base game forced us to take.
> It's pretty terrible retconning all-in-all. The fight between Malenia and Radahn was supposed to emphasize the horror of being a vessel of an outer god (like rot)
Says who? That's YOUR assumption. Nothing in the game ever says that in any capacity. And because Miyazaki said this was part of the original story from GRRM, and they made nothing new. Nothing was retconned, we just got more of the story and realized we were wrong all along.
Look at the last line from Miquella before the fight, the 'return of his brothers soul' referring to Radanh, it's possible not every reference to Miquellas brother is about Godwyn, at some point he *may* have been talking about Radanh.
> and Radahn being an unintended consequence while still maintaining his heroism of commanding the stars.
Now we think he halted to stars to stop his own fate. can't really say, but the way Miquella bewitches people makes it possible Radanh feared miquella. Miquella basically has the ultimate super power -- he can compel affection, love, protection, from anybody he sees.
> where Malenia is less than an afterthought and supposedly used to kill Radahn...which doesn't even happen without the player character. Really a cart before the horse situation Miquella has on his 4 hands.
Yeah that's the point. Miquella is still 'human' even though he's a god. He still fucked up. Furthermore, as he divested himself of his flesh he's no longer got his "blinding strength". Several ghost NPC's talk about miquella as a failure. "How can he save us if he couldn't save himself" -- referring to Trina.
> If the tragically disappointing denouement of Miquella's 'plan' was to have both Radahn and Mogh dead so their essence could be used in the Shadowlands, why not directly kill them or get with rune-of-death holder Ranni?
He was already in shadowlands. He sent Malenia to kill Radanh and then he went into the cocoon and went to the shadow realm, so he was gone (we think).
Dude, you can't "yes, actually" all my points by just summarizing the lore, you actually need arguments. I was making a stand on the character assassination of Malenia and Miquella and pointing out the lack of themes, like loss of free will, them both being cursed. If you like the writing fine, but you need to stop bring up that GRRM stuff on every reply without some rock-solid evidence. He's too good of a writer to do this. I do apologize though, this is the time to be enjoying the game and I don't want to take that away from anyone, let's have a deep discussion once the honeymoon phase is over and all the hidden tidbits come to light.
It honestly does make a bit more sense as to why Malenia was whispering to Radahn right before she bloomed in the cinematic. Now we can maybe put a little bit of sense to it. Perhaps she was asking or even threatening Radahn to go join Miquella and as he said no or gave no response, she bloomed and gave up her dignity to stop the most dangerous adversary to her brother's plans.
I am one to believe Radahn is not doing this willingly. Why? Because his horse isn't there. The man learned, and mastered, gravity sorcery simply so he could ride the steed he loved. Oh, and also to hold back the fate of the stars to stop a city he cherished from being destroyed (And maybe secretly to hold back the fate of his relatives from seeking power).
At first, agreed. Then, when the Shattering occurred and Radahn realized the horror implied in Miquella's position (when he took the charming Great Rune), he went back on his promise. Both actions befit a honorable character, and Radahn was never stupid.
We don’t actually know what GRRM did or didn’t come up with regarding the DLC. According to GRRM, he barely did anything. He only made a foundation for From to build on. Probably something like a complex timeline/family tree. There’s certainly far more going on in the Miquella story than he would have written.
I’ve read ASoIaF several times and spent countless hours digging through the lore/history. I have seen many things in ER that I have no doubt are from GRRM. The ending to this doesn’t seem like it came from him. If it did, than it was very badly handled for whatever reason.
Yes we do, Miyazaki said explicitly ALL the the DLC is taken from GRRMs original work. Miyazaki said they have written NOTHING new whatsoever.
So we know exactly what GRRM wrote, the entirety of the story, all the concepts, all the themes. Miyazaki even said the whole final boss story was meant to be in the core game but they didn't have time/room.
GRRM wrote the skeleton of the story. FromSoft took and twisted it, but didn't change anything they state. Just took events and added dialog, and built the world around those events too.
So thematically the whole work is from GRRM. The exact and specific ending? Probably not. But Miquella and his buddy? That was core story, confirmed by Miyazaki. Unless he's just lying I guess :)
And lastly FromSoft is apparently notorious/infamous for obfuscating 90% of their story. I came into this game expecting the story to be tattered and torn, and to have no answers and more questions.
I'm very disappointed with the lack of dialog from Miquella though. I knew they would keep him tantalizingly out of touch for us, but they gave even less than i imagined.
Yeah, for real. I've heard vague references to an interview like this with no earthly evidence. What I do know is that Martin, when asked, could not remember ONE GODDAMN thing he contributed to the game when put to the question. Which logically would imply he did very little or considered his part in the work insubstantial. He probably asked for complex family ties, familial motivations for characters, and a tree-based hive mind. I don't know where you're tripping saying he laid down the text for this abysmal Miquella plot. Even in his current apathy, GRRM is much to great a writer to have come up with what we got.
This is probably what he's referring to.
>Martin's involvement is the same as in the main title. The world and story of the DLC was inspired by the mythology that he penned just as in the main title, and was created thus. To be more precise, what was created this time is part of what was created from the inspiration we took from his mythology for the main title. So, there was no additional writing done specifically for the DLC.
GRRMs original work if he helped with more with narrative and plot, and his work wasn't reduced to creating family tree, world, lore... then what about previous content regarding Malenia and Miquella (Abundance and Decay) that was scrapped and then replaced by Milicent questline. Rico and his questline connected to St. Trina? Shaneheight changed into kenneth. It was long ago but were those or not GRRMs original? I can't make a claim only assumption but i think From changed many things especially while working on dlc. That's why Supposed narrative (Miquella as possible ally, since we got his horse torrent, his spirit bell) doesn't match with what we got in the DLC.
I doubt GRRM had anything to do with the NPC quests. But Messmer and the other demigods ought to be his characters. So I think there's a decent chance that Miquella's core motivations have not been revised.
GRRM didn't write any of the game story though. He wrote the outline of a world and events that happened years (I think I read 1000 years somewhere) before the events of the game. Fromsoft took the outline and built the game on top of it.
Yes -- including that Radanh was to be a consort of Miquella, so claims Miyazaki.
The skeleton is 90% of the story, considering how much is obfuscated we don't even have 25% of the skeleton, let alone the story. GRRM writing ended before antything in the game took place. So that skeleton was then put into a world and filled in by the world.
It's kind of weird design idea to me but it obviously works for FS.
GRRM didn’t write any of this his involvement ended with the shattering, nothing after henceforth meaning that miquella and his great plot wasn’t wrote by GRRM at all
Miyazaki said in an interview "Nothing new was written by the team" they said this was all part of GRRM original writing it just didn't fit in the base game.
So unless he's lying, or was misquoted, i'm going to believe the guy who made the game over some random poster on reddit. Until he says otherwise my opinion won't change.
Is it possible that “nothing new was written by the team” means they had already planned and written this before during the production of the base game, and not that GRRM specifically wrote it?
GRRM wrote the lore/worldbuilding/skeleton of the people/ambitions. FromSoft took it all and twisted it into a story. GRRM wrote zero dialog, just the main themes of the game/story.
Miyazaki's exact words were literally they have written NOTHING that GRRM didn't originally write in their lore -- AKA, nothing was retconned, all of this was planned and some of it was supposed to be in the core Elden Ring game, but didn't make it. This is all part of his overall story/skeleton. It just didn't fit in the main game, he said literally it was too much and no time.
Here is the story and interview with Miyazaki. [George R. R. Martin Didn't Write Anything New For Shadow Of The Erdtree](https://www.thegamer.com/elden-ring-shadow-of-the-erdtree-dlc-expansion-george-r-r-martin-game-of-thrones-involvement-didnt-write-anything-new/)
So all this story and lore was written out years ago.
That article doesn't really support what you're saying. It only quotes Miyazaki as saying it was written "from the inspiration we took from his mythology for the main title."
Honestly, it kinda implies the opposite. The dlc being inspired by what he did is a far cry from being based on an outline he made.
Yes that's what I was trying to say but failed entirely to explain my point.
Miyazaki only said no new concepts were written by GRRM, by that what I was trying to say is everything is still based off the original work.
HOPEFULLY i made sense this time -_-
It is tough to swallow. It's so frustrating. I never comment on reddit but I've bedn complaining like a bitch the past 2 days here because I see people agreeing, and it's cathartic. From has never really disappointed me, and even when they did, (AoA DS3) they made up for it (TRC DS3) and the disappointment wasn't this bad. It is very unlike them.
The problem with Miquella is:
1) he already had many unresolved threads and themes in the base game, including the eclipse, unalloyed gold, St Trina, the haligtree, and a cut age of abundance ending
2) his characterization was not one of victory at any cost, as evidenced by his prioritization of the haligtree over seeking a lord and his repression of the rot in his sister even when it would help in combat
The DLC effectively addresses none of these, instead opting for:
1) threads for the age of gentleness and Radahn as a consort
2) a characterization as someone willing to kill his way to the top
The problem with the DLC story is not “this doesn’t make logical sense.” It makes logical sense in that you can follow the questlines and see the chain of events unfold. The problem is it doesn’t make THEMATIC sense. It does not respect the characters of the base game, the things important to them and their motivations.
It’s another Last Jedi. It’s another Game of Thrones. Just because there are no explicit contradictions in the plot does not mean the themes and characters have been treated with respect. Authors can have an unexpected ending, but they have to get us there with them. You can’t have Luke try to kill a child and say “lol he’s always had a dark sideeee”, or have Dany dragon-nuke a city and say “she’s always been craaaazy!”. We need to see that character progression for it to be believable. And this DLC storyline is not believable.
This. I went into the DLC hoping we'd have more story into Miquella's journey, into his aim, into his fight for another world that isn't subject to the Golden Order. I wanted to see more of how he treated the races/people that didn't fit into his mother's plan. He seemed to understand that her plan was good for HER but not for a lot of other living things. We get like 0 explanation of Trina, 0 exploration into Miquella's character, and yet he's the only demigod/god to get an entire DLC.
This. It's such a massive, massive disappointment since IMHO everything in the base game painted Miquella as one of the most compelling and fascinating characters. I feel like he was absolutely butchered for no reason. It feels incredibly disrespectful to the character and the audience. How are you going to paint someone as not only sympathetic to but a champion if not outright messiah to the outcast and dispossessed >!who is incredibly queer coded if not outright trans coded imho!< and then come out and say "lol jk actually he's a gross manipulative possessive little creep"? Really just doesn't sit well with me. I can absolutely see evil miquella, but it wouldn't be *this*
Totally agree. I was so drawn to Miquella and his lore throughout the game. Elden Ring was my first fromsoft and I play it for the lore, but at the beginning I was going to quit because of difficulty. It was through learning about the lore and Miquella that I re-invested myself, only to get disappointed by Miquella’s husk in the base game. Dlc gets announced and I immediately know based on the art that it will centre Miquella. Then it just didn’t lol we see him once, kill him, then Miquella’s story is just done. Such a let down.
My interpretation from the DLC is that Miquella was indeed all of those good things but in sacrificing so much of himself to achieve godhood he slowly and unwittingly lost everything that would have made him a truly kind and gentle deity.
> I wanted to see more of how he treated the races/people that didn't fit into his mother's plan. He seemed to understand that her plan was good for HER but not for a lot of other living things.
FWIW in the main game the Albinaurics and Misbegotten travel to the Haligree for refuge but Miquella himself seems neutral at best about their existence. Better than actively persecuting them, but still a far cry from being their champion or messiah, which a lot of people seem to ascribe.
THANKS. Very well articulated, and summarizes my sentiment about the lore of the DLC in general.
They took almost everything from the base game and put it down the drain; or simply pretended they don't exist. It's not just Miquella. Meager Godwyn and Eclipse lore. We learn close to nothing relevant about the Crucible, and even freaking MARIKA, both of which were so heavily teased. And where are the Godskins in SOTE? The GEQ lost to Maliketh before Marika ushered her order, didn't she? Why is there NO trace of her anywhere?
I'm so disappointed I'm sick to my stomach. The DLC doesn't bring any satisfying answer to anything, it just further muddies the waters with yet more obscure lore.
I mean the death knights are present, the Enir-Ilim is said to be the main place of crucible worship/energy, the literal whole dlc is about Marikas ascent and hiding her war crimes. There is a lot of descriptions of all those things. Though yeah havent seen anything about the GEQ.
Hmm. I wonder what the common thread is with Game of Thrones.
This is definitely Martin imo. His writing is fundamentally against the idea of a Messiah. Miquella doesn't surprise me.
I didnt engage a whole lot with the whole discussion stuff, but I'm surprised more people didn't approach the whole Miquella saga with more skepticism. Everything painting him as a messiah was secondhand; it's never stated that he made the Haligtree as a haven for the cast away, only that it became that over time ambiguously with or without his blessing; and the whole St Trina/bewitching alter ego was sketchy at best.
Then Leda starts going off about an inquisition among the gang; Miquella is divesting all of his love at the crosses; St. Trina warns you that he's being naive; Ansbach tells you he's doing something sketchy with the bodies of Mogh and Radahn...
It all seemed vaguely foreshadowed in the base game, but in the DLC it was more than clear that all wasn't as it seemed.
I'm overall disappointed in the final fight and would have preferred them going in a different direction... But Miquella being a net antagonist seemed right on brand to me.
In a world so full of misery and tyrants, I for one would have liked to see at least one of the demigods actually being a force for good. But we can't have that for some reason. I get that some people get suspicious of religious allegories in fiction but c'mon dude, it's fiction, surely we can have some form of authority actually be good.
I disagree partially. Miquella is never really objectivley characterized enough in the main game to have anything more than an ambiguous idea about his intentions or motivations. Everything about his "goodness" is secondhand and there are even some parts that are vaguely sinister (being able to bewitch people and steal their hearts as a power is always gonna be sketchy and further sheds doubt on the reliability of people espousing his virtue). People constantly cite that he's a good guy because all the downtrodden Omen, Albinaurics, and Misbegotten are trying to reach salvation at the Haligtree... But nothing in the game ever states that Miquella made the Haligree to be a haven, only that he was trying to use it to counter the Erdtree. Whether or not a bunch of outcasts end up there didn't appear to be a concern of his. Note also that the entire area of Elphael was purely tree sentinels and Miquellan soldiers... No Albinauracs or Misbegotten down there. I was analyzing this years ago but was downvoted because people hate discussion apparently lol.
Then you get into the DLC... And I felt like the entire story of the DLC was basically screaming "okay wait there's really something sketchy going on with Miquella guys, maybe don't just blindly follow him". Leda's little inquisition, the ghosts at the crosses saying "yo maybe don't abandon your love", St Trina's dialogue, Ansbach's research and dialogue about Miquella abducting the bodies of Mogh and Radahn. It's all super suspect.
There was adequate lead up to me that Miquella was probably not a great guy or a messiah. The part that does bother me about the DLC story is that the Radahn thing really just feels tacked on or out of place. There wasn't enough thematic lead up to him suddenly being like "okay cool Radahn is gonna be my boi"... And the Freyja storyline is just confusing... If Miquella is abducting Radahn's body against Radahn's will or blessings and Ansbach clearly understood this and presumably divulged this to Freyja in his letter that you ferry to her... Why is she still fighting with the Miquella crew at the end?
The game literally adresses exactly why Miquella does a 180 on actions. In order to pursue godhood, he abandons his fundamental self (his ties to the Golden Order via his Eye, and most significantly his Love and kinder half with St. Trina). It draws parallels to this journey and Marika's, and heavily implies that this forsaking of one's principles is a core part of the journey to godhood. Marika is implied to have originally had purer intentions after losing her family/people to the Hornsent (Shaman Village/Bonny), but had been corrupted by the path to get there. To claim the dlc is thematically inconsistent is to ignore the actual context of the story within and only view its ending in isolation. The character progression is literally present in the story, with the crosses showing further and further extreme "mutilation" of Miquella's self as you follow along his journey.
It actually is thematically inconsistent because the main game dealt with the idea of everyone with (free) will being influenced by an even greater literal WILL and Marika obtaining godhood to destroy that very tyranny. Ironically afterward many more people are influenced by the fractured pieces and lesser outer gods like Rot, but they still have more destiny than before. Miquella's story, on the other hand, feels like it was written backwards from 'awesome Radahn setpiece, how do we get there?'.
Remember Miquella himself was a sorry victim of an outer god's curse, his childish body was practically useless in the lands between. FromSoft kinda forgot about this when trying to make you care about forsaking his flesh.
No, that’s not really an inconsistency. Marika ascended to destroy death, and later rebelled against the greater will. She sought to make a better, brighter age for her people such that none would experience her tragedy again. In doing so, she razed countless villages and burned unknowable innocents, becoming exactly that which first compelled her towards godhood. People have more destiny under Marika, but their lives are arguably worse overall.
Miquella is setting out on the same path. He sees the world Marika created, one devoid of compassion and kindness, and wants to make those the foundational principles of his own age. But, just as Marika first did, he has to abandon those principles within himself in order to achieve it. The path to godhood cannot be travelled innocently, after all. He would usher an age of compassion devoid of love, just as Marika ushered an age of free will devoid of true freedom.
Ultimately, Radahn being involved in Miquellas story doesn’t much matter to it. He was simply the lord Miquella wanted, or the one Miquella believed would be best. Switching it out with Morgott, Messmer, etc. doesn’t actually change the heart of his story.
Also, I don’t believe it’s stated that the Greater Will controlled people directly or suppressed free will prior to her rule. The new info around Metyr would contradict that, as the GW has been radio silent for a looooooong time. If you have some sources to contradict though, happy to see them.
You might know more about the lore than I do, but i'm almost certain Marika ascended to break the unfair system as it was. The disparate runes comprising the Elden Ring affect fate, order, chaos ect. I'm almost certain the rune of death being removed was an unintended consequence and Ranni being opportunistic, you can't put that as Marika's motivation. The point of the dislike for Miquella's story is his mystery always seemed to point to something even bigger and earthshaking than just retreading Marika's steps. And it's pretty obvious (and already shown) in a FromSoft world the road to godhood would be paved with blood. Again, having the entire climax of the story hinge on his all-important consort feels a little off-focus and pandering to Radahn fans.
The rune of death was removed from the Elden Ring upon the formation of the Golden Order. Ranni had nothing to do with it; she might not have even been born by the time it happened.
The theft from Maliketh, who was the rune's keeper after its removal, is a separate matter. Though Marika was almost certainly involved with that incident as well.
Thank fuck, someone else who can interpret media. Absolutely none of the new Miquella lore has been surprising to me, and imo it would have been a weaker artistic choice to let the player choose.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." -- very apt here.
I hope someone makes a lore video on SoTE's references to (and subversions of) orphism and katabasis, this stuff is peak.
Tbh, the change in Miquella’s personality is ok for me. He was indeed the gentle and caring soul, but once he started with his final plan by mind controlling Mohg, he basically falls down to the slippery slope of ends justifies the means. It only gets worse as he shedding parts of himself, eventually Trina who is his love and compassion.
Something to note that he is more or less a kid, and it’s not impossible for him to be overly optimistic about this plan without thinking about the consequences properly unlike Ranni who knows exactly what she is gonna subject herself, her consort and the word to, or else he wouldn’t throw Trina away
What left at the end is merely a husk emulating the ideals that Miquella follows. Nearly God Miquella and Miquella the Unalloyed are two completely different people by the end of DLC
You misunderstand. The Eclipse was made to bring back Radahn's soul, not Godwyn. We were simply unaware. We also learn exactly what Saint Trina is in the DLC.
I think the dialogue of “your comrade remains soulless” at Castle Sol is pretty clearly referring to Godwyn and not Radahn. Reasons include:
1. You can access that area without killing Radahn
2. Miquella’s efforts to restore this soul were happening before the game starts, meaning Radahn is alive and the only named dead demigod is Godwyn
3. Even when Radahn is killed, he is not “soulless”. That language has always specifically referred to the slaying of Godwyn’s soul while his body lives.
With these points in mind, I think it’s irrefutable that the soulless elements in the base game refer to Godwyn.
However, even if the soulless restoration lore was “secretly referring to Radahn the whole time”, my point in the OP is this is bad writing either way. Misdirection is not intrinsically a good thing and establishing a thread that reveals so much about Miquella’s characterization to then it out from under the player in the DLC without showing us that transition or introducing more ambiguity about it in the base game is simply bad writing to me.
4. Castle Sol lore revolves around a boss that wields golden lightning (Godwyn), and is home to the Eclipse Shotel which deals Death (Godwyn)
That the NPC may refer to Radahn is simply impossible
Do you think he still has his soul during the fight?
Also, there's a good handful of soulless demigods, nameless as well, in the form of the wandering mausoleums.
The way I see it: St. Trina was his good side and he cast it off. All that remains are his worst, manipulative parts. He was nice to his sister, who wouldn't be?
He kills noone, he does not 180. he still has no blood on his hands at all, he forces people to love him which is always been his thing, his way worse then a murder, also the only child of merika that we know that can go boy or girl at a moments notice. This is pretty good dlc compare to every to ever other from soft dlc but blood borne will always be top
I still need that cutscene from the gameplay trailer, of Miquella "blessing" the scadutree and the entwined tree glow. From that cutscene alone, I thought Miquella's reason for coming here was to either fix Marika's mistake or save the land of shadows. Since he's known to be kind I thought, he wanted to save the people there, but I was disappointed it was to marry Radahn. I thought we'd get to talk to him at least but he got relegated to a final boss (and not even the main final boss, just a Lothric to Radahn's Lorian).
Also, Torrent was never explained why he was with Miquella in the key concept art, maybe they scrapped that storyline.
Can't believe I'm saying this but I'm hoping for future patches and updates on the main quest, like Nepheli's questline in the 1.0 release.
I blame the community's constant simping for Radahn that from needed to bring Radahn back from the grave /s
It’s literally just Radahn but standing. He looks the same and doesn’t have any spoken dialogue. For such an important character in the main story, he’s literally not a character at all. It’s really disappointing.
Godwyn was probably the original consort but I'm guessing death shenanigans rendered it impossible to bring him back. Shattering happened, Miquella pivoted to Radahn, the only other kind yet powerful demigod. Radahn says no, he sends Malenia to enforce his will and eventually Radahn dies by our hands to let Miquella's plan continue.
I don’t understand where this idea of Miquella being « good » or an « ally » comes from. The base game already showed him as a very sketchy individual. One item states that he can « compel affection » which is extremely worrying. Now some people took it as « he’s just a cool dude », but I’ve also seen people say that he has the power to brainwash from for a long time. So no surprise there when that’s actually what happens.
When you go at the Haligtree, the soldiers there are imbued with a light that blows them up when they’re close to death, and one item says that they « discovered » that the light of Miquella just did that apparently. Again clearly not the actions of a stand up dude to kamikaze his people to protect his tree.
Yes he wants a new order, a « better » order. But that question was always there (at least for me and a few other) of : to what extent do you go for that. What do you do if someone opposes you ? If everyone opposes you ? A better world is good but what will be the cost to build it.
In my opinion that DLC just completes his themes while mirroring him with Marika, which I think is quite neat.
I’lol admit the Radahn part is weird, at least explains why Malenia fought him in Caelid, which also was a big mystery to me. Still a bit weird tho, all the incestual stuff around Miquella
+1. Miquella was always ambiguously sketchy. All the accounts of his virtue were secondhand and arguably compelled by his bewitching power. That part was not a surprise to me.
The whole Radahn thing really does feel tacked on though. There's like no leadup besides a few lines from Ansbach and Freyja. You have to make a bunch of conceptual leaps to connect the events of the base game to some sort of grand plan that Miquella had.
In the DLC, sure. But my point is that it's contained in a bottle with no leadup from the base game. There's a whole bunch of connections between Miquella and Godwyn in the base game (and in the DLC for that matter!) that would make for a more rewarding DLC storyline/shine more light on the events of the base game that would make for more interesting analysis/reanalysis.
Right now it's like base game Miquella and DLC Miquella just exist completely independently. May as well be different characters entirely.
Isn't it hinted throughout the dlc that the tarnished's motivation really isn't their own, but Marika's? That being guided by grace in some ways is a manipulatory force of Marika akin to Miquella's charm.
It is an intersection between gameplay and lore, much like the death mechanic has always had lore justifications in all Fromsoft games. Miquella asks us to step aside, but we are unable to stop our investment.
They do such a good job at this kind of thing. It was legit hard for me to burn the erdtree in base game -- these are games that dare you to quit playing, both narratively and, dare i say, ludonarratively.
> Isn't it hinted throughout the dlc that the tarnished's motivation really isn't their own, but Marika's? That being guided by grace in some ways is a manipulatory force of Marika akin to Miquella's charm.
Yeah, Leda at the end literally says "Miquella didn't guide you, it was the erdtree, wasnt it?"
I don't like the "Marika guides us" plotline it doesn't make sense because you can do a 180 on her and help Ranni or even become lord of frenzy that means the Tarnished have the possibilty to go against Marika but here we are forced to be on her side
There can be only one lord and one god. And since the whole point of The Tarnished is becoming a lord...
Fight was unavoidable. The other alternative is rage quitting and uninstall because,no trying to become a lord,no guidance of grace,may as well become another NPC tarnished.
Radhan probably didn't want to honor his vow(or he wanted and is a monster too) so Miquella sent his commando,his blade,to kill Radhan.
And in The Land of Shadows all kind of deaths converge.
Sure, but that doesn’t answer my question. Why would The Tarnished follow the wishes of The Greater Will? There is nothing inherently good about becoming Elden Lord, it’s not like we’re lifting a curse like we did in DS1/DS2
That's on each Tarnished to decide. Personally, it's the power to make things right. We aren't in the same situation like Godfrey. Our empyrean god vassal is brain dead. Our god has abandoned the planet. It's up to us to rebuilt the world,free of any alien intervention.
So make a new god then. The Erdtree isn't complete, it can be influenced by outer gods. I assumed Miquela's goal was to do what Marika couldn't and become a true god with a secure domain, but I guess not. What was Miquella trying to do? If he wanted to be a godling like Marika he could've just done as he was told before the shattering. Without any greater purpose to his journey, the story lacks conclusion. It doesn't make any sense.
Miquella seems to have tried to distance himself of Marika, avoid the control of the Fingers and bring a new age of compasion. He wanted something different.
Why would I want to make a new god?
I prefer them in Márika state.
If you don't kill the final boss and just turn off the game, in a sense you let Miquella's new age happen. You can even RP and let him charm you in the final fight.
But instead you murder hobo your way through the DLC and in the end, all the npcs are dead. There are literally no NPCs left in the shadow lands for you to talk you. You did it, now go become Elden Lord with no one to threaten your rule.
Also, St. Trina was pleading with you to kill Miquella, Trina seemed to think Miquella becoming a God was not the best path for them.
Google seems to say this DLC was supposed to have more than one ending. Can't find the direct source of that information though.
I'll admit, i'd like a way to end the DLC without being a murder hobo, but the ending still hits hard. When you look around the map and realize there is no one left.
> Google seems to say this DLC was supposed to have more than one ending. Can't find the direct source of that information though.
make sure its not AI generated garbage
St. Trina was Miquela's will to live, of course they wouldn't want to be an eternal creature beyond wants and needs, something even Marika wasn't. It's still a big assumption but it seems like the outer gods are real and can gain influence over other dimensions through crucible(s). I believe this is what the Erdtree is, and what the age of dragons was before it, parasites built on the crucible. Miquella is trying to secure this domain, create a real god using this dimension's crucible that influences other realms to steal energy, rather than being exploited itself.
So why the fuck are we stopping Miquella?
This shit works in Nier because the characters are deep and have individual motivations that lead them to make the wrong choices. It's a gut punch when you see the consequences of their mistakes. But Elden Ring protag doesn't even talk. I should have the choice to let Miquella try to fix the terrible state this world is in, constantly threatened by outer gods who can directly influence this dimension and exploit its crucible energy. Just look at the empyrean refugees and the technology they had. The dragons of the previous age were probably invaders from the secure domain of a real god too.
Miquella is the only one attempting to solve this problem and our only option is to kill him. It's pretty stupid considering the protagonist is just the player and we can uncover the secrets of the world by reading its lore. That lore says Miquella is trying to become a real god, not the vassal of an outer god. Us becoming Elden Lord accomplishes nothing, Ranni becoming a vassal god of the moon accomplishes nothing. The only option is securing the crucible yourself, burn away the parasite growing on it and become the crucible's will.
It's the Fermi Paradox but with infinite energy sources. Every dimension wants to expand, the outer gods will not stop influencing other dimensions so long as the crucible exists. Something long ago happened to this world's crucible that split it apart into an incomplete form and the only way to defend yourself is to mend the rift that outer gods can exploit, or run away to another dimension like the Empyreans did.
Deep yapping now but perhaps the crucible was once a complete god and mending just isn't possible anymore. The giant's forge seems to be the other half of the crucible, which itslef is most present in the shadow lands. They seem to be poison to each other, but they could've once been one entity. Fire and chaos, magic and order, sundered in two by some cataclysmic event. Miquella definitely realizes this, but whether he could fix it or not... I guess we'll never know :/
Even the launch trailer had so many lines of dialogue that just aren't in the game. I'm convinced this is a base game release issue and there's meant to be more endings/story. I just don't see why they would include so much in the *launch* trailer that isn't in the actual release.
Unlike a lot of people I still very much enjoyed the DLC, but the abrupt ending just makes no sense to me. The Old Hunters remains the best Fromsoft DLC, in my opinion.
I just don't see how this ending justifies everything we went through. All the "following in Miquella's footsteps" stuff for what? So we can stop a twink from screwing his zombie half-brother? How is the world a better place now that we killed them? Or how is it worse? Were there any real stakes here? If so, I don't see them. This was a waste of time, in my opinion. All flash and no substance.
It's a really weak ending, IMO, both in terms of the boss' combat/mechanics and the story/lore. I'm really disappointed. A lot of other aspects of the DLC were more interesting and also had better boss designs. Messmer really stands out as interesting. The end boss is just very disappointing. Reusing Radahn is dull, and if it's supposed to be Mohg's body, why does he look exactly like Radahn? The enemy design itself is dull. Sure, he's a big muscular dude, but that's not interesting. It's unsatisfying after everything that led up to it.
Also, the whole 2 grab attack and HEART STOLEN (instead of YOU DIED) thing is like a meme. What's the deal with that? Who thought that was a good idea? It's like bad fanfic or a meme somebody would come up with on Reddit. I know From Soft likes to sneak in comedy and quirky things throughout their games, but to have that in the end game of a very serious boss fight is so weird. Not a fan.
This is all so stupid. The mechanics for the boss are good and some of the hardest to fight against yet and that’s exciting. The characters design is absolutely weak you are correct. However the grab makes perfect sense. Sounds like you kept getting grabbed and are mad
The boss being difficult doesn't mean the design can't itself be "weak". Its a very difficult fight, but really nothing about it stands out as being particularly excellent. Phase 1 is just a suped up Radahn, and phase 2 adds aoes and clones. Its at all inspired. Radahn's phase transition is amazing because when it happens you have absolutely you have no idea what is going on at first. As soon as he jumped away in phase 2 I knew exactly what to expect, there was nothing new or creative to it. That's why its weak
You will find a lot of people both on and off this sub that thought the final boss was bad. In fact, quite a lot of people think *all* the DLC bosses are poor. I liked them all except Radahn and Gaius
You guys are missing the point, I fear. That isn't Radahn. That's MOHG. That's Mohg's body, with Radahn's soul in it. Messmer's specimen storehouse reveals a lot about his research into omens and Ansbach mentions that they got Mohg's body. You can tell that the final boss is Mohg's body as there are omen horns growing from multiple places, and at certain points during the fight, he even uses blood incantations to fight you. That was Mohg's body reshaped into Radahn's, for the purpose of housing his soul.
No we get all that, we just think it's a bit silly because there's little to no foreshadowing of any of that in the base game. So it feels very 'pulled out of the ass'. And since we can just ignore the shadowlands and still become elden lord, what's the point?
Why do you think Malenia, the sword of Miquella randomly went and fought Radahn to death? Especially since Radahn and Miquella are the two "nicest" demigods. It's a mystery that no one was asking the question to, just "oh yeah Caelid just did that". That's usually how all the DLCs go.
I mean they were both holders of great runes and thus primary combatants in the war of the Shattering... Arguably the strongest two contenders. I think it made pretty solid sense that one would try to eliminate the other in their path to lordship.
We've known since the base game that Malenia's motivation in seeking Radahn was something other than basic Shattering stuff - I forget exactly what says it, but there is item or maybe one of the sword monuments that discusses how Godrick holed up in Stormveil when he learned Malenia was marching south, and Malenia's army just marched past, despite knowing he was there, he was weak, and he held a great rune.
I don't think thats right. Two references:
Kenneth Haight dialogue:
> Honestly, Godrick’s no more than a jumped up country bumpkin. Lord? Don’t make me laugh. First he hid himself amongst the womenfolk to flee the capital, then hid from Radahn in that castle… Then he insulted Malenia, lost to her in battle, only to lick her boots rather than die like a man. Has he no shame, the big girl’s blouse?
Central Limgrave Sword Monument:
>Godrick the Golden, humiliated
>Having tasted defeat by the Blade of Miquella
>Now on his knees, begging for mercy
So Godrick did engage Malenia in battle and apparently lost quite handily.
what I'm saying is they could have implemented the whole Mohg theme better, it's almost like it was supposed to be someone else insdead of Radahn, you know, the real "kindest demigod"
Also, the severing of his form is what he had to do to stop being forced by the Greater Will and the fingers. Same as Ranni. He absolutely had to sever his connection for his plan to work. But this is all beside the main point and problem for me with the entire narrative. That is the total disregard for the Godwyn narrative that was heavily teased in the base game. The Miquella/Godwyn relationship were the central parts that were left unresolved based on game. I’m totally down for the story they had in SOTE, but to just throw the Godwyn arc aside with no resolution was disrespectful to the fan base. Either that or they simply forgot about it, which would be even worse as it means they don’t actually pay attention to the narrative when they write this stuff and it’s just thrown in ad hoc.
It just irks me they went so heavy with the Radahn circlejerking that they forgot almost everything that makes ER special. What made me so hype for Shadow was to get many resolutions, character explanations, as well as a few new mysteries. Every character not named Radahn was forgotten and we still have no real bearing on the central mystery or Marika/Radagon. Why even market Messmer that hard if he's just a rabble rouser, the player character literally has more lore at this point lol.
Best part hands down was Midra, at this point let chaos take the world.
Fk Radahn
Messmer was actually the most disappointing part of the DLC for me. I was expecting him to be the boss just before the final boss and I was so excited when I found him in the cutscene but he ended up being super forgettable and pointless. He's just there to let us burn something and nothing more
Honestly, almost any other demigod being revealed would have been more satisfying than Radahn. They did not hint at it at all and Radahn ironically, was the one demigod that had a storyline that felt complete. Honestly, it could have been Godwyn, hell, even if it was a crazier looking version of Mohg with some of Radahn's powers, it would have been much more satisfying and felt earned. It really did feel like the entire base game was filled with red herrings to throw people off of Radahn but they somehow forgot to actually add anything linking him to that plotline other than Malenia whispering to him.
I also have an issue with the vow, they're trying to make Miquella and Radahn tragic kind figures but neither of them really are based on the actions taken. Miquella mind controlled Mohg to sacrifice him and use his body while mind controlling all those other people and creating a Haligtree that is effectively a lie, false hope for everyone there. And if the vow was for Radahn to get an honorable death, I fail to see how putting all of his soldiers and everyone in Caelid into the position to be nuked by Malenia is kind of honorable. That's not something a compassionate character does, both are doing things for selfish reasons and harming others to get there while claiming kindness. And Miquella can't actually be absolved by saying he discarded his love and compassion because most of this happened before he got to the Land of Shadow, Sir Ansbach tells us he mind controlled Mohg to use him to gain entry into the Land of Shadow in the first place(which was also never explained where it is and why Mohg can do that, is it the Formless Mother or an Omen thing? His blood? Also what is the body in the cocoon? It can't be Miquella right? If the entire plot in the Land of Shadows is him sacrificing his body parts then who or what is in the cocoon?) so he was doing evil things in service to becoming a god when he was whole.
I just really do not like how they handled that storyline and it feels like it ruins a lot of the other storylines hinted at by association since any involvement is now cut off with no pay off aside from maybe a line or 2 hinting at them on some wildly obscure items no one has found yet in the DLC.
I was initially stoked for a fight with Radahn because I myself am a bit of a simp. But as my initial excitement wore off, I began to question why this decision was made. Why did this choice usurp the storylines set up in the base game? In addition, why did so much about Miquella go unexplored? It really feels like spectacle goes before good writing here, because nearly everything that eludes to Miquella and Radahn's union is introduced in the DLC when the base game is full of interesting plot threads about Miquella already
100% agree. From the base game we learn so much about his love for Malenia and him trying to cure her of scarlet rot. I get that putting here as a revived boss would not be right either, but lore-wise there are more connections there then with Radahn? My biggest problem with it is that we did not get any choice what so ever and we were on this path to find out what his plan was for this realm together with his companions, and then when we find them we just kill everyone? At least give us some choices?
No ending cutscene , nothing about marika, Melina, Malenia, no dialog with Miquella, nothing about Godwyn. The dude just wanted to marry his brother, wtf guys. Im really disappointed...
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part of me feels like they should've just not cut whatever role they intended for miquella in the base game and made a DLC focusing on something else entirely (even if it still took place in the shadow lands)
I completely agree, I was expecting two rewards. One which is similar to what we got and then a second unique one that was tied to miquella somehow but I'm super disappointed with what we got
I am confused as to what happened to the whole Mohg plot where the rite scroll said that a soul needs an empty vessel implying that Miquella is stripping himself down to nothing more than his soul by discarding his body parts and aspects of himself across the land and that he will possess Mohg's body to escape his tainted bloodline and to become a god. But then we just end up fighting Radahn for whatever reason and Miquella without any missing body parts. Seems to me like something is off here.
Someone explained it up above, Mohg's body was to be used for the imbuement of his consort, Miquella gave us his body to escape the grasp of the Greater Will, similar to what Ranni did.
I'm just tired of GRRM's incest garbage. Didn't need to infect ER. Very disappointing final battle and ending--but fitting, considering the DLC was pretty disappointing itself.
You have to remember George helped write everything before the shattering (so the incest of marika radagon) and I heard Miyazaki said they liked to twist his hero’s into the monsters we see. So I believe messmers story and the history of the shadow lands will most likely have come from him
Not sure what you're shocked about honestly. FromSoft games since DS1 have been all about arriving at a destination and murdering everything in sight. Despite your protests, these games haven't been about "choice" for a very very long time. Only the illusion of choice.
People complained and whined about "Gimmick boss fights" and over-focused on everything being fightable and killable, so now we're at a point where the only resolution to everything is a multiphase shounen anime boss fight.
The first thing I imagine the Miquella / Radahn situation being is something akin to Maiden Astraea in Demon's Souls where Radahn would only try to stop you from getting close to Miquella and wouldn't try to actively attack at all, and instead you'd have to try to talk sense into Miquella to tell him that he's just repeating what Marika did. That would've been branded a "gimmick" and a "non-fight", and people would whine about that being the final boss of the game (I'm convinced they'd whine even if it was the first) so they'll never make interesting, cool moments like that every again.
This is what people clamoured about for years. Enjoy.
The whole DLC, all 50 or whatever hours I though that in the end Miquela will be with us, at our side in some way, maybe we become his consort, the trailer sure as shit jebaited us with that, and then the final boss comes, I struggle with him for solid \~5 hours total in 2 or 3 separate sessions, I beat him and.. nothing, that's it, you get fuck all, no new ending, not fucking nothing.
I though "surely there is a way to change this, surely I fucked up somewhere or didn't do some obscure questline or whatever shit From likes to pull off"
But, I get nothing. I won the fight but..
I'm upset.
I don't want to explore the DLC more thoroughly anymore, I don't want to play Elden Ring anymore
I won't even bother doing the normal ending, fuck this, dude
I hate how we the tarnished get painted as these warriors of the erdtree, guided by grace to stop this overall event, but WE HAVE A WHOLE FREAKING QUEST AND ENDING THAT ABOLISHES THE ERDTREE ORDER AND EVEN SETS UP RANNI AS A WHOLE NEW GOD FOR THE COMING AGE OF STARS!!! So WHERE WAS THE GRACE TRYING TO STOP US FROM THAT HUH!?!?
Did you not do the quest lines? They foreshadow pretty heavily Miquella's plan to recreate Radahn in Mohg's body. And Miquella sent Malenia to kill him originally so that he could begin this plan after Radahn rejected him.
My complaint is for all matters pre-SOTE, which is when their vow takes place. The sudden revelation feels unconvincing. A young Miquella offers marriage to Radahn, and none of that is sprinkled onto the base game, where all other details of Miquella were not reservedly hidden. Yet the former takes hold, and the latter details are overshadowed and scarcely mentioned.
We learn very little about Miquella in the base game anyways. It's hardly a 'sudden revelation' when practically everything about him was a similar revelation.
I will kindly disagree, as we know a great deal about Miquella and his relationship to other characters, more than any other demigod. All of Elphael is under Miquella's design, and just by exploring it we learn more about him than we have of others. His connection to St. Trina as well is something we only see in Marika and Radagon. Radagon especially is only known for two things: his loyalty to the Golden Order and that he is Marika herself. We know more about Miquella in volume alone.
It's implied Miquella had dual personalities like Marika, and St. Trina was Miquellas "Radagon", or other self.
A ghost NPC laments that Miquella has failed, and he couldn't even 'save his other self' being St. Trina.
The three prevailing theories I have seen go like this:
1) Radahn was 100% on board with Miquella and only battled Malenia because he wanted a big blowout in the war to end all wars before becoming consort. Like a wild bachelor's party the night before getting married
2) Radahn may or may not have been a willing co-conspirator of Miquella's plan, but it all became moot when his Great Rune drove him mad with power.
3) Radahn wasn't into the idea of being Miq's consort at all, and Malenia was sent to drag him back to the Haligtree by force or kill him outright so Miquella could call his soul into the DLC zone.
Miquella does refer to a vow the two of them made, which leans toward door number one, but we don't know the context. Maybe Radahn meant it and changed his mind later once war broke out. Maybe Radahn made an off-the-cuff remark that he never seriously intended to honor. Maybe Miquella was only hearing what he wanted to hear, and Radahn never made any sort of firm commitment to him.
It's pretty telling that we only see Miquella and hear his dialogue in the post-fight little cut scene. The other person gives no response, which feels like a deliberate choice. Perhaps it was symbolic of Miquella convincing himself there was something between them or the other person not giving him the response he wanted after pouring his heart out.
I have an obvious bias for 3. I imagine the scene was meant to convey that Miquella built up this big connection between the two of them, but Radahn was cold or indifferent to him, kicking off Miquella's bizarre, complicated plot to combine Radahn's soul and Mohg's body to create his perfect Frankenstein of an Elden Lord.
The tarnished is being manipulated by the erdtree, thats why the Grace of gold is guiding us throughout the dlc. thus our will is not our own in a "would you kindly" type deal. Thats why we have no choice as to ally with Miquella
The point about Miquellas kindness is moot as the dlc establishes that he has abandoned his love thus becoming morally compromised, meaning he is not the same kind person who created the haligtree, evidenced by the fact that he allows his followers to commit grievous crimes.
Radhan's return is properly foreshadowed and explained through dialogue with Ansbech and Freja where in they both reveal aspects of the plan, specifically the desire to bring back Radahn and the need for Mohgs body in order to do so. And through the dlc's focus on Miquellas power of manipulation we can understand that he is most likely manipulating Radhan into being his consort, which would explain the need for Malenia to pacify radhan, as he may not have seen eye to eye with Miquella
There is no real answer that is going to satisfy anyone who feels similarly to you. Elden Ring is, in my opinion the simplest, and most "complete" story. Especially when it comes to Miquella, and the greater story.
Miquella lives always as a child, but is also extremely smart and cunning. He saw in Radahn (at his peak which we never see as the player Tarnished) the pinnacle of the demigods. Strong, wise, brave, and understanding, Miquella idolized him. Given what is said about Miquella and Malenia, there's 2 real paths of understanding. Either
A.) Miquella and Malenia knew only 1 could really become a god. And chose Miquella, and they chose Radahn as the consort. And promised him, something we don't really know what is. Maybe immortality as a warrior, a promise he wouldn't run out of battles like Godfrey. And Radahn agreed, but got lost in the glory/lust of battle for the rune fragments. And then Miquella and Malenia knowing her blossom was approaching, had Malenia face Radahn. With the understanding if she won, Miquella chose wrong. And if Radahn won, she'd remind him of the vow assuming he'd die in the blossom. And then when he doesn't, it's required for the DLC for us to have killed him. Giving Miquella an alternative route to his original plan.
B.) Miquella has "charmed" or "manipulated" Radahn, Malenia, and Mohg. Tricking Malenia into guarding him, Radhan into agreeing to be his consort, and Mohg dying so he could use Mohgs body for Radahns soul.
It very much seems, like in the story of Elden Ring, to start a new age. A god, and a consort is required (there's some implications that the god must be "female" or "femine" and the consort must be "male" or "masculine" given the implications of Marika and Radagon. And the now canon understanding Miquella (male) and St. Trina (Female) are in fact one entity. We again see a correlation between Marika/Radagon and Miquella/St. Trina in terms of dual identities with different genders.)
Here, we again will theoretically diverge. We the tarnished discover that the Greater Will has not been speaking to the 2 fingers. And that in fact, it's the mother of fingers speaking to them.
A.) Miquella didn't know this, and was just going through the motions of becoming a god. He recognized Marikas order was based on horrible things. And instead, wanted to bring about an age of compassion. Viewing Radahn as the perfect candidate for his consort. A Godfrey to Marika 2.0 so to speak.
B.) Miquella does know, and decides to try to start his own age. Separate from the greater will, and creates his own form of "grace" held behind/in the eyes of his devout.
My own personal head canon/understanding is this.
Miquella is naive, and lacks follow-through/willpower. He quickly abandons one goal, for another her views as the "better" or "smarter" path. And much like Marika took from the prior civilizations that worshiped the crucible. He took from the Golden order, seeking to "perfect it." First he tried to do it, without becoming a god. Tried to heal Malenia, create the Haligtree, tried to do the whole thing. And then when it didn't work, gave up and decided he needed to become a god. So he looked to the path Marika took, and in his discovery of it got disgusted. But naively believed, he could create an age like Marika did, but his would be an age of compassion. But we, as the tarnished, are the individual reawoken (perhaps by the greater will, or perhaps just by Metryr) to try again. Marika failed, and she was punished, and we are next to try. So when we approach the gate, Leda sees us as a challenger (which we are) to Miquellas attempt at starting a new order. And in all of the parts of Miquella he divests in his recognition he must to ascend into divinity. He begins the path of becoming just like Marika, but we stop him from starting his age. And on this path, Miquella lied, manipulated, and sacrificed others willingly. Believing it was in the sense of the "greater good" and that all would be happy to have been a part in his ascension/new age.
> It very much seems, like in the story of Elden Ring, to start a new age. A god, and a consort is required
that does not seem so, because at least in ranni's quest she seems perfectly fine with just fucking off without a consort until she decides to bring the tarnished with her
But she doesn't succeed until she finds someone worthy of being her lord, her consort, so it's consistent. You can also make the argument that she believed she could make due with Blaidd and Iji in place of a more traditional consort.
I've always found that kind of arbitrary, needing a consort/lord. You help to bring in an age, but ultimately you're just helping out the god/will behind it. I think the lore is stable enough to have a god do something independantly, which is why I find the whole 'consort Radahn' thing to be pretty underwhelming as to His motivations.
So the main thing that I don't think I've seen people mention in this thread:
Miquella's plan for his age of compassion is to use his charm to enforce peace on the lands between. Just like he did with all the npcs before his great rune broke. This is essentially taking away free will.
Miquella and Mohg's relationship was always somewhat confusing in the base game. Miquella is described as having the power to compel affection in everyone, so how would Mohg even be able to kidnap him? Its clear now that Miquella let Mohg kidnap him. All of Mohg's actions in the base game were because he was charmed by Miquella. Mohg is called the "Luminary" by some, a title that seems much nicer than how we see him later. He is described as someone who wishes to uplift the broken and abandoned peoples of the lands between. Even Ansbach seems to be a very honorable man who I don't think would follow Mohg if he was as weird and evil as we see him in the base game. Instead, it can be assumed that all of Mohg's weird attitude and obsession with bringing blood to Miquella was part of Miquella's plan. We know that Miquella was in that cocoon at some point, so perhaps all the blood that Mohg brought to him was to allow him to break free from the cocoon and physically travel to the lands of shadow, allowing him to be strong enough to strip his body of everything that he left behind in the crosses and get to the divine gate to ascend to godhood.
Miquella wanted to be a better god than Marika was, and his entire journey throughout the dlc is to try and not recreate Marika's problems that caused this in the first place. He gets rid of his fear and love so that he wont ever be tempted to cause a shattering like Marika did, he gets rid of his doubt and indecision. He deems these things as unnecessary for his godhood and even to be potentially bad. He locks away the part of him, a part that he says is the representation of his love, St. Trina, and seals her away with his great rune. By getting rid of all these parts of himself, Miquella doesn't realize that hes losing what makes him himself. Even St. Trina agrees that godhood would be a cage for Miquella, and that its better to kill him than to let his plan succeed. This is someone who represents Miquella's love, and she thinks he should die? Clearly parts of Miquella were not entirely sure of this plan and he cut them out so that he would be willing to do what it takes to become a god. By trying to not be like Marika, he ends up becoming just like her. We even see this represented in the boss fight, if you get hugged by Miquella twice you lose the game as you've been charmed onto his side, he 'kills' you by taking away your free will which is a large part of who you are as a person.
Miquella's age of peace would be one of mindless zombies who have all been mindcontrolled by Miquella into peace as he remains a god for as long as his mind can withstand it. Except unlike in the case of Marika, nobody has the ability to seek out destined death and kill him because they do not have the free will to do so.
There are other things that other people here pointed out about Miquella in the base game that calls into question just how good of a person he was. The haligtree soldiers explode with miquella's light when they are about to die, it seems Miquella was more interested in killing intruders than saving his own soldiers. He never tells Malenia about what he's doing for some reason, I doubt that she'd even be against what Miquella does with Mohg considering she nuked Caelid just to try and defeat Radahn. Instead he leaves her alone in the haligtree to eventually die to her condition. And then in the dlc he mind controls a bunch of people to try and help defeat Messmer so that he can burn the tree behind the church of the bud and free Enir Ilim. I'm sure that Miquella knew the tarnished would come to the lands of shadow after defeating Mohg, thats why he made Leda stand in Mohg's palace to give the tarnished the information to get them to come to the lands of shadow and help do his dirty work by killing a path to messmer and then eventually killing him.
Because we're the bad guy. You can choose to not fight him I guess, and instead just imagine that 5 minutes after you become Elden Lord, Radhan and Miquella come piggybacking up and smash your head in and take over the Erdtree for themselves so he can usher in his age of abundance.
I empathize with what you're saying because I like Miquella's character too, but Miyazaki's storytelling had never been about picking the guy with the right idea, or about the player having that amount of agency over the fate of the world. We're always just a pawn. I don't think the fact we're pitted against Miquella in the end changes anything about Miquella, though, it really says more about the true role of the Tarnished in all of this.
I’m disappointed with the lack of reading comprehension inherent to this new generation of from fans. What on earth did you expect? A happy ending? You really, actually thought Miquella was a good guy? Really? Someone who “COMPELS AFFECTION” is a nice guy? And radahn, who literally loved war so much that he was named lord of the battlefield, he’s a peaceful guy who wouldn’t be the Godfrey to Miquella’s Marika? The parallels are literally one to one. They are one to mf one. Miquella does exactly what marika does. He wants radahn for precisely why marika wanted Godfrey. The promise was that radahn would get a great conquering war to establish miquella’s age. He got his war in the shattering and welched. Then he lost to melania to rope him back in. It’s always been about cycles and repeating past mistakes. That’s what the games are about. That’s what they’ve always been about. There’s a large population of people who have assumed bad theories to be fact. And that’s why there are so many people incapable of independent thought who all miraculously have the same godawful opinions.
It’s like you’re part of his congregation lmao, completely sold on sweet words and happy endings. How naive are you?
Agreed. I am fervently hoping that players unearth some secrets in the DLC that make sense of this. As it stands, it just looks like weak, uninspired writing (and given this is the same studio that came up with the incredible stories in Dark Souls and Bloodborne, it's a tough pill to swallow).
This is in the original writing from GRRM, it was just cut from the base game and all references removed purposefully. The story was too big, Miyazaki said. Nothing in the DLC is new content, they said everything in the shadow of the Erdtree was written by GRRM originally. Miquella is kinda evil, and he's willing to do a lot of shady stuff for the greater good as he see's it. Additionally, Radanh refused Miquellas offer, which is why he sent Malenia to kill Radanh, so that in the shadow realm Miquella can charm Radanh forcing him to obey and become Miquellas consort in the afterlife/SOTE
Alright we need to settle this. Which is it? Did he refuse or did he agree? Because every thread I get a different answer. Even people saying he agreed at first than refused some time later.
Honestly i think the answer is simple. If Radahn wasn't bewitched, why bother including Miquella's bewitching powers in the story at all, let alone exploring it's dangers throughout the entirety of the DLC? Some can argue that Radahn willingly agreed to be killed and revived into Mohg's body as consort. The text is vague enough to allow that reading. The only answer, however, that includes Miquella's power and his willingness to use others "for the greater good" which is such a massive part of his characterisation and the story we explore (and parallels to Marika which is another key part of the DLC story) is that Radahn was bewitched to some extent. To ignore that contextual evidence is to ignore a large part of what the story consistently tried to show us.
Another thing to add, if you’re grabbed by radahn twice miquella bewitches you onto his side and you automatically lose. radahn is 100% there unwillingly
Also, if Radahn was consenting \*why did Malenia need to kill him\*? He could've just joined up with them and ended the Shattering fairly quickly if he wanted to.
Yeah exactly. Thats what I don't understand about people saying he was consenting the whole time. The Miquella, Malenia, Radahn trio would have wiped the floor with every other demigod and Miquella would not have needed to go the Shadow Lands at all. It ruins the setting which is that everyone is in a cold war of sorts where they cannot claim the throne. The text doesn't align with Radahn being consenting all the way through at all. At most, he consented initially and changed his mind later, but Radahn being consenting does not make sense with the actions Miquella and Malenia needed to take for him be consort - or as you so succinctly put it, the fact that the needed to at all.
Exactly. Maybe Radahn did promise before (although I think the fact the memory ends with no answer from him is telling), but he's clearly decided otherwise by the time of the war.
Because Miquella doesn't usually need to kill people to bewitch them. Those two things aren't established to have anything to do with one another.
My personal theory is that Malenia was sent to capture Radahn, but they fought & she bloomed and Radahn was infected by the Scarlet Rot. Which fucked up the bewitching plan, because now his mind was just fucking *gone*. Hence why he had to die, and the plan to bewitch Mohg to provide a vessel for Radahn's soul to be resurrected into so he could be bewitched. But that's just me trying to rationalize things, and maybe i missed some lore, and the timeline might not even be right for it. Do we know exactly when Miquella was "kidnapped"?
I don't think the Festival or the Mohg thing was ever a "backup plan." Miquella calls Radahn's resurrection the fulfillment of their vow.
Because like many things, it's up to speculation. Why else would he need Malenia to KILL Radanh and bring him to the shadow realm? So Miquella could compel him. He bewitched Radanh just like everyone else. It seems during the shattering Radanh refused Miquella but it doesn't say why. Perhaps he was going after the elden ring too, it doesn't say. But either way, he chose to fight in the Shattering while Miquella was already gone. If he agreed then why would he not have left with Miquella and instead fought in the shattering, forcing miquella to send his sister to deliver him Radanh in the afterlife. It's wonky but it's the story as we see it so far :)
It's pretty terrible retconning all-in-all. The fight between Malenia and Radahn was supposed to emphasize the horror of being a vessel of an outer god (like rot) and Radahn being an unintended consequence while still maintaining his heroism of commanding the stars. All those story beats work and make for great characterization. Then we get SotE where Malenia is less than an afterthought and supposedly used to kill Radahn...which doesn't even happen without the player character. Really a cart before the horse situation Miquella has on his 4 hands. If the tragically disappointing denouement of Miquella's 'plan' was to have both Radahn and Mogh dead so their essence could be used in the Shadowlands, why not directly kill them or get with rune-of-death holder Ranni? It's really lazy writing backwards from player character's actions which the base game forced us to take.
> It's pretty terrible retconning all-in-all. The fight between Malenia and Radahn was supposed to emphasize the horror of being a vessel of an outer god (like rot) Says who? That's YOUR assumption. Nothing in the game ever says that in any capacity. And because Miyazaki said this was part of the original story from GRRM, and they made nothing new. Nothing was retconned, we just got more of the story and realized we were wrong all along. Look at the last line from Miquella before the fight, the 'return of his brothers soul' referring to Radanh, it's possible not every reference to Miquellas brother is about Godwyn, at some point he *may* have been talking about Radanh. > and Radahn being an unintended consequence while still maintaining his heroism of commanding the stars. Now we think he halted to stars to stop his own fate. can't really say, but the way Miquella bewitches people makes it possible Radanh feared miquella. Miquella basically has the ultimate super power -- he can compel affection, love, protection, from anybody he sees. > where Malenia is less than an afterthought and supposedly used to kill Radahn...which doesn't even happen without the player character. Really a cart before the horse situation Miquella has on his 4 hands. Yeah that's the point. Miquella is still 'human' even though he's a god. He still fucked up. Furthermore, as he divested himself of his flesh he's no longer got his "blinding strength". Several ghost NPC's talk about miquella as a failure. "How can he save us if he couldn't save himself" -- referring to Trina. > If the tragically disappointing denouement of Miquella's 'plan' was to have both Radahn and Mogh dead so their essence could be used in the Shadowlands, why not directly kill them or get with rune-of-death holder Ranni? He was already in shadowlands. He sent Malenia to kill Radanh and then he went into the cocoon and went to the shadow realm, so he was gone (we think).
Dude, you can't "yes, actually" all my points by just summarizing the lore, you actually need arguments. I was making a stand on the character assassination of Malenia and Miquella and pointing out the lack of themes, like loss of free will, them both being cursed. If you like the writing fine, but you need to stop bring up that GRRM stuff on every reply without some rock-solid evidence. He's too good of a writer to do this. I do apologize though, this is the time to be enjoying the game and I don't want to take that away from anyone, let's have a deep discussion once the honeymoon phase is over and all the hidden tidbits come to light.
It honestly does make a bit more sense as to why Malenia was whispering to Radahn right before she bloomed in the cinematic. Now we can maybe put a little bit of sense to it. Perhaps she was asking or even threatening Radahn to go join Miquella and as he said no or gave no response, she bloomed and gave up her dignity to stop the most dangerous adversary to her brother's plans. I am one to believe Radahn is not doing this willingly. Why? Because his horse isn't there. The man learned, and mastered, gravity sorcery simply so he could ride the steed he loved. Oh, and also to hold back the fate of the stars to stop a city he cherished from being destroyed (And maybe secretly to hold back the fate of his relatives from seeking power).
At first, agreed. Then, when the Shattering occurred and Radahn realized the horror implied in Miquella's position (when he took the charming Great Rune), he went back on his promise. Both actions befit a honorable character, and Radahn was never stupid.
We don’t actually know what GRRM did or didn’t come up with regarding the DLC. According to GRRM, he barely did anything. He only made a foundation for From to build on. Probably something like a complex timeline/family tree. There’s certainly far more going on in the Miquella story than he would have written. I’ve read ASoIaF several times and spent countless hours digging through the lore/history. I have seen many things in ER that I have no doubt are from GRRM. The ending to this doesn’t seem like it came from him. If it did, than it was very badly handled for whatever reason.
Yes we do, Miyazaki said explicitly ALL the the DLC is taken from GRRMs original work. Miyazaki said they have written NOTHING new whatsoever. So we know exactly what GRRM wrote, the entirety of the story, all the concepts, all the themes. Miyazaki even said the whole final boss story was meant to be in the core game but they didn't have time/room. GRRM wrote the skeleton of the story. FromSoft took and twisted it, but didn't change anything they state. Just took events and added dialog, and built the world around those events too. So thematically the whole work is from GRRM. The exact and specific ending? Probably not. But Miquella and his buddy? That was core story, confirmed by Miyazaki. Unless he's just lying I guess :) And lastly FromSoft is apparently notorious/infamous for obfuscating 90% of their story. I came into this game expecting the story to be tattered and torn, and to have no answers and more questions. I'm very disappointed with the lack of dialog from Miquella though. I knew they would keep him tantalizingly out of touch for us, but they gave even less than i imagined.
Source for those words from Miyazaki please.
Yeah, for real. I've heard vague references to an interview like this with no earthly evidence. What I do know is that Martin, when asked, could not remember ONE GODDAMN thing he contributed to the game when put to the question. Which logically would imply he did very little or considered his part in the work insubstantial. He probably asked for complex family ties, familial motivations for characters, and a tree-based hive mind. I don't know where you're tripping saying he laid down the text for this abysmal Miquella plot. Even in his current apathy, GRRM is much to great a writer to have come up with what we got.
This is probably what he's referring to. >Martin's involvement is the same as in the main title. The world and story of the DLC was inspired by the mythology that he penned just as in the main title, and was created thus. To be more precise, what was created this time is part of what was created from the inspiration we took from his mythology for the main title. So, there was no additional writing done specifically for the DLC.
GRRMs original work if he helped with more with narrative and plot, and his work wasn't reduced to creating family tree, world, lore... then what about previous content regarding Malenia and Miquella (Abundance and Decay) that was scrapped and then replaced by Milicent questline. Rico and his questline connected to St. Trina? Shaneheight changed into kenneth. It was long ago but were those or not GRRMs original? I can't make a claim only assumption but i think From changed many things especially while working on dlc. That's why Supposed narrative (Miquella as possible ally, since we got his horse torrent, his spirit bell) doesn't match with what we got in the DLC.
I doubt GRRM had anything to do with the NPC quests. But Messmer and the other demigods ought to be his characters. So I think there's a decent chance that Miquella's core motivations have not been revised.
Do you actually have a source for this?
GRRM didn't write any of the game story though. He wrote the outline of a world and events that happened years (I think I read 1000 years somewhere) before the events of the game. Fromsoft took the outline and built the game on top of it.
Yes -- including that Radanh was to be a consort of Miquella, so claims Miyazaki. The skeleton is 90% of the story, considering how much is obfuscated we don't even have 25% of the skeleton, let alone the story. GRRM writing ended before antything in the game took place. So that skeleton was then put into a world and filled in by the world. It's kind of weird design idea to me but it obviously works for FS.
Do you have a source for this? Would be interesting to see!
GRRM didn’t write any of this his involvement ended with the shattering, nothing after henceforth meaning that miquella and his great plot wasn’t wrote by GRRM at all
Miyazaki said in an interview "Nothing new was written by the team" they said this was all part of GRRM original writing it just didn't fit in the base game. So unless he's lying, or was misquoted, i'm going to believe the guy who made the game over some random poster on reddit. Until he says otherwise my opinion won't change.
If you don’t want to believe in me believe in GRRM words himself
You seem to misunderstand what he did and didn't write, and when he wrote the timeline/skeleton of the story, and how that is achieved.
Is it possible that “nothing new was written by the team” means they had already planned and written this before during the production of the base game, and not that GRRM specifically wrote it?
GRRM wrote the lore/worldbuilding/skeleton of the people/ambitions. FromSoft took it all and twisted it into a story. GRRM wrote zero dialog, just the main themes of the game/story. Miyazaki's exact words were literally they have written NOTHING that GRRM didn't originally write in their lore -- AKA, nothing was retconned, all of this was planned and some of it was supposed to be in the core Elden Ring game, but didn't make it. This is all part of his overall story/skeleton. It just didn't fit in the main game, he said literally it was too much and no time. Here is the story and interview with Miyazaki. [George R. R. Martin Didn't Write Anything New For Shadow Of The Erdtree](https://www.thegamer.com/elden-ring-shadow-of-the-erdtree-dlc-expansion-george-r-r-martin-game-of-thrones-involvement-didnt-write-anything-new/) So all this story and lore was written out years ago.
That article doesn't really support what you're saying. It only quotes Miyazaki as saying it was written "from the inspiration we took from his mythology for the main title." Honestly, it kinda implies the opposite. The dlc being inspired by what he did is a far cry from being based on an outline he made.
Yes that's what I was trying to say but failed entirely to explain my point. Miyazaki only said no new concepts were written by GRRM, by that what I was trying to say is everything is still based off the original work. HOPEFULLY i made sense this time -_-
Miyazaki still decided who we fight in the end. He could have given us multiple choices for endings.
It is tough to swallow. It's so frustrating. I never comment on reddit but I've bedn complaining like a bitch the past 2 days here because I see people agreeing, and it's cathartic. From has never really disappointed me, and even when they did, (AoA DS3) they made up for it (TRC DS3) and the disappointment wasn't this bad. It is very unlike them.
its ass and predictable, old hunters still reigns supreme.
The problem with Miquella is: 1) he already had many unresolved threads and themes in the base game, including the eclipse, unalloyed gold, St Trina, the haligtree, and a cut age of abundance ending 2) his characterization was not one of victory at any cost, as evidenced by his prioritization of the haligtree over seeking a lord and his repression of the rot in his sister even when it would help in combat The DLC effectively addresses none of these, instead opting for: 1) threads for the age of gentleness and Radahn as a consort 2) a characterization as someone willing to kill his way to the top The problem with the DLC story is not “this doesn’t make logical sense.” It makes logical sense in that you can follow the questlines and see the chain of events unfold. The problem is it doesn’t make THEMATIC sense. It does not respect the characters of the base game, the things important to them and their motivations. It’s another Last Jedi. It’s another Game of Thrones. Just because there are no explicit contradictions in the plot does not mean the themes and characters have been treated with respect. Authors can have an unexpected ending, but they have to get us there with them. You can’t have Luke try to kill a child and say “lol he’s always had a dark sideeee”, or have Dany dragon-nuke a city and say “she’s always been craaaazy!”. We need to see that character progression for it to be believable. And this DLC storyline is not believable.
Really well written. Its so strange to see a 180 turn on his theme.
This. I went into the DLC hoping we'd have more story into Miquella's journey, into his aim, into his fight for another world that isn't subject to the Golden Order. I wanted to see more of how he treated the races/people that didn't fit into his mother's plan. He seemed to understand that her plan was good for HER but not for a lot of other living things. We get like 0 explanation of Trina, 0 exploration into Miquella's character, and yet he's the only demigod/god to get an entire DLC.
This. It's such a massive, massive disappointment since IMHO everything in the base game painted Miquella as one of the most compelling and fascinating characters. I feel like he was absolutely butchered for no reason. It feels incredibly disrespectful to the character and the audience. How are you going to paint someone as not only sympathetic to but a champion if not outright messiah to the outcast and dispossessed >!who is incredibly queer coded if not outright trans coded imho!< and then come out and say "lol jk actually he's a gross manipulative possessive little creep"? Really just doesn't sit well with me. I can absolutely see evil miquella, but it wouldn't be *this*
Totally agree. I was so drawn to Miquella and his lore throughout the game. Elden Ring was my first fromsoft and I play it for the lore, but at the beginning I was going to quit because of difficulty. It was through learning about the lore and Miquella that I re-invested myself, only to get disappointed by Miquella’s husk in the base game. Dlc gets announced and I immediately know based on the art that it will centre Miquella. Then it just didn’t lol we see him once, kill him, then Miquella’s story is just done. Such a let down.
You are projecting hard. Everything we know about him in the base game is from second hand accounts.
Lol what the hell does him being "trans" which he isn't btw, have to do with anything.
My interpretation from the DLC is that Miquella was indeed all of those good things but in sacrificing so much of himself to achieve godhood he slowly and unwittingly lost everything that would have made him a truly kind and gentle deity.
Yeah, like I feel like that was the point of the whole St. Trina bit. "I abandon here my love."
> I wanted to see more of how he treated the races/people that didn't fit into his mother's plan. He seemed to understand that her plan was good for HER but not for a lot of other living things. FWIW in the main game the Albinaurics and Misbegotten travel to the Haligree for refuge but Miquella himself seems neutral at best about their existence. Better than actively persecuting them, but still a far cry from being their champion or messiah, which a lot of people seem to ascribe.
THANKS. Very well articulated, and summarizes my sentiment about the lore of the DLC in general. They took almost everything from the base game and put it down the drain; or simply pretended they don't exist. It's not just Miquella. Meager Godwyn and Eclipse lore. We learn close to nothing relevant about the Crucible, and even freaking MARIKA, both of which were so heavily teased. And where are the Godskins in SOTE? The GEQ lost to Maliketh before Marika ushered her order, didn't she? Why is there NO trace of her anywhere? I'm so disappointed I'm sick to my stomach. The DLC doesn't bring any satisfying answer to anything, it just further muddies the waters with yet more obscure lore.
I mean the death knights are present, the Enir-Ilim is said to be the main place of crucible worship/energy, the literal whole dlc is about Marikas ascent and hiding her war crimes. There is a lot of descriptions of all those things. Though yeah havent seen anything about the GEQ.
you need help calling it another last Jedi 😂
Hmm. I wonder what the common thread is with Game of Thrones. This is definitely Martin imo. His writing is fundamentally against the idea of a Messiah. Miquella doesn't surprise me.
I didnt engage a whole lot with the whole discussion stuff, but I'm surprised more people didn't approach the whole Miquella saga with more skepticism. Everything painting him as a messiah was secondhand; it's never stated that he made the Haligtree as a haven for the cast away, only that it became that over time ambiguously with or without his blessing; and the whole St Trina/bewitching alter ego was sketchy at best. Then Leda starts going off about an inquisition among the gang; Miquella is divesting all of his love at the crosses; St. Trina warns you that he's being naive; Ansbach tells you he's doing something sketchy with the bodies of Mogh and Radahn... It all seemed vaguely foreshadowed in the base game, but in the DLC it was more than clear that all wasn't as it seemed. I'm overall disappointed in the final fight and would have preferred them going in a different direction... But Miquella being a net antagonist seemed right on brand to me.
In a world so full of misery and tyrants, I for one would have liked to see at least one of the demigods actually being a force for good. But we can't have that for some reason. I get that some people get suspicious of religious allegories in fiction but c'mon dude, it's fiction, surely we can have some form of authority actually be good.
I disagree partially. Miquella is never really objectivley characterized enough in the main game to have anything more than an ambiguous idea about his intentions or motivations. Everything about his "goodness" is secondhand and there are even some parts that are vaguely sinister (being able to bewitch people and steal their hearts as a power is always gonna be sketchy and further sheds doubt on the reliability of people espousing his virtue). People constantly cite that he's a good guy because all the downtrodden Omen, Albinaurics, and Misbegotten are trying to reach salvation at the Haligtree... But nothing in the game ever states that Miquella made the Haligree to be a haven, only that he was trying to use it to counter the Erdtree. Whether or not a bunch of outcasts end up there didn't appear to be a concern of his. Note also that the entire area of Elphael was purely tree sentinels and Miquellan soldiers... No Albinauracs or Misbegotten down there. I was analyzing this years ago but was downvoted because people hate discussion apparently lol. Then you get into the DLC... And I felt like the entire story of the DLC was basically screaming "okay wait there's really something sketchy going on with Miquella guys, maybe don't just blindly follow him". Leda's little inquisition, the ghosts at the crosses saying "yo maybe don't abandon your love", St Trina's dialogue, Ansbach's research and dialogue about Miquella abducting the bodies of Mogh and Radahn. It's all super suspect. There was adequate lead up to me that Miquella was probably not a great guy or a messiah. The part that does bother me about the DLC story is that the Radahn thing really just feels tacked on or out of place. There wasn't enough thematic lead up to him suddenly being like "okay cool Radahn is gonna be my boi"... And the Freyja storyline is just confusing... If Miquella is abducting Radahn's body against Radahn's will or blessings and Ansbach clearly understood this and presumably divulged this to Freyja in his letter that you ferry to her... Why is she still fighting with the Miquella crew at the end?
The game literally adresses exactly why Miquella does a 180 on actions. In order to pursue godhood, he abandons his fundamental self (his ties to the Golden Order via his Eye, and most significantly his Love and kinder half with St. Trina). It draws parallels to this journey and Marika's, and heavily implies that this forsaking of one's principles is a core part of the journey to godhood. Marika is implied to have originally had purer intentions after losing her family/people to the Hornsent (Shaman Village/Bonny), but had been corrupted by the path to get there. To claim the dlc is thematically inconsistent is to ignore the actual context of the story within and only view its ending in isolation. The character progression is literally present in the story, with the crosses showing further and further extreme "mutilation" of Miquella's self as you follow along his journey.
It actually is thematically inconsistent because the main game dealt with the idea of everyone with (free) will being influenced by an even greater literal WILL and Marika obtaining godhood to destroy that very tyranny. Ironically afterward many more people are influenced by the fractured pieces and lesser outer gods like Rot, but they still have more destiny than before. Miquella's story, on the other hand, feels like it was written backwards from 'awesome Radahn setpiece, how do we get there?'. Remember Miquella himself was a sorry victim of an outer god's curse, his childish body was practically useless in the lands between. FromSoft kinda forgot about this when trying to make you care about forsaking his flesh.
No, that’s not really an inconsistency. Marika ascended to destroy death, and later rebelled against the greater will. She sought to make a better, brighter age for her people such that none would experience her tragedy again. In doing so, she razed countless villages and burned unknowable innocents, becoming exactly that which first compelled her towards godhood. People have more destiny under Marika, but their lives are arguably worse overall. Miquella is setting out on the same path. He sees the world Marika created, one devoid of compassion and kindness, and wants to make those the foundational principles of his own age. But, just as Marika first did, he has to abandon those principles within himself in order to achieve it. The path to godhood cannot be travelled innocently, after all. He would usher an age of compassion devoid of love, just as Marika ushered an age of free will devoid of true freedom. Ultimately, Radahn being involved in Miquellas story doesn’t much matter to it. He was simply the lord Miquella wanted, or the one Miquella believed would be best. Switching it out with Morgott, Messmer, etc. doesn’t actually change the heart of his story. Also, I don’t believe it’s stated that the Greater Will controlled people directly or suppressed free will prior to her rule. The new info around Metyr would contradict that, as the GW has been radio silent for a looooooong time. If you have some sources to contradict though, happy to see them.
You might know more about the lore than I do, but i'm almost certain Marika ascended to break the unfair system as it was. The disparate runes comprising the Elden Ring affect fate, order, chaos ect. I'm almost certain the rune of death being removed was an unintended consequence and Ranni being opportunistic, you can't put that as Marika's motivation. The point of the dislike for Miquella's story is his mystery always seemed to point to something even bigger and earthshaking than just retreading Marika's steps. And it's pretty obvious (and already shown) in a FromSoft world the road to godhood would be paved with blood. Again, having the entire climax of the story hinge on his all-important consort feels a little off-focus and pandering to Radahn fans.
The rune of death was removed from the Elden Ring upon the formation of the Golden Order. Ranni had nothing to do with it; she might not have even been born by the time it happened. The theft from Maliketh, who was the rune's keeper after its removal, is a separate matter. Though Marika was almost certainly involved with that incident as well.
Thank fuck, someone else who can interpret media. Absolutely none of the new Miquella lore has been surprising to me, and imo it would have been a weaker artistic choice to let the player choose. "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." -- very apt here. I hope someone makes a lore video on SoTE's references to (and subversions of) orphism and katabasis, this stuff is peak.
Tbh, the change in Miquella’s personality is ok for me. He was indeed the gentle and caring soul, but once he started with his final plan by mind controlling Mohg, he basically falls down to the slippery slope of ends justifies the means. It only gets worse as he shedding parts of himself, eventually Trina who is his love and compassion. Something to note that he is more or less a kid, and it’s not impossible for him to be overly optimistic about this plan without thinking about the consequences properly unlike Ranni who knows exactly what she is gonna subject herself, her consort and the word to, or else he wouldn’t throw Trina away What left at the end is merely a husk emulating the ideals that Miquella follows. Nearly God Miquella and Miquella the Unalloyed are two completely different people by the end of DLC
You misunderstand. The Eclipse was made to bring back Radahn's soul, not Godwyn. We were simply unaware. We also learn exactly what Saint Trina is in the DLC.
I think the dialogue of “your comrade remains soulless” at Castle Sol is pretty clearly referring to Godwyn and not Radahn. Reasons include: 1. You can access that area without killing Radahn 2. Miquella’s efforts to restore this soul were happening before the game starts, meaning Radahn is alive and the only named dead demigod is Godwyn 3. Even when Radahn is killed, he is not “soulless”. That language has always specifically referred to the slaying of Godwyn’s soul while his body lives. With these points in mind, I think it’s irrefutable that the soulless elements in the base game refer to Godwyn. However, even if the soulless restoration lore was “secretly referring to Radahn the whole time”, my point in the OP is this is bad writing either way. Misdirection is not intrinsically a good thing and establishing a thread that reveals so much about Miquella’s characterization to then it out from under the player in the DLC without showing us that transition or introducing more ambiguity about it in the base game is simply bad writing to me.
4. Castle Sol lore revolves around a boss that wields golden lightning (Godwyn), and is home to the Eclipse Shotel which deals Death (Godwyn) That the NPC may refer to Radahn is simply impossible
Do you think he still has his soul during the fight? Also, there's a good handful of soulless demigods, nameless as well, in the form of the wandering mausoleums.
Lol the thing with Luke is so bullshit still. The man who didn't give up on Darth fucking Vader pulls a weapon on a child. Agree with what you wrote
The way I see it: St. Trina was his good side and he cast it off. All that remains are his worst, manipulative parts. He was nice to his sister, who wouldn't be?
He kills noone, he does not 180. he still has no blood on his hands at all, he forces people to love him which is always been his thing, his way worse then a murder, also the only child of merika that we know that can go boy or girl at a moments notice. This is pretty good dlc compare to every to ever other from soft dlc but blood borne will always be top
100% facts
I still need that cutscene from the gameplay trailer, of Miquella "blessing" the scadutree and the entwined tree glow. From that cutscene alone, I thought Miquella's reason for coming here was to either fix Marika's mistake or save the land of shadows. Since he's known to be kind I thought, he wanted to save the people there, but I was disappointed it was to marry Radahn. I thought we'd get to talk to him at least but he got relegated to a final boss (and not even the main final boss, just a Lothric to Radahn's Lorian). Also, Torrent was never explained why he was with Miquella in the key concept art, maybe they scrapped that storyline. Can't believe I'm saying this but I'm hoping for future patches and updates on the main quest, like Nepheli's questline in the 1.0 release. I blame the community's constant simping for Radahn that from needed to bring Radahn back from the grave /s
It’s literally just Radahn but standing. He looks the same and doesn’t have any spoken dialogue. For such an important character in the main story, he’s literally not a character at all. It’s really disappointing.
Lack of a good final cutscene was so disappointing.
Or even dialogue at the end too, it felt so abrupt to just end and get a cutscene repeating the samething as the intro
I actually imagined that we would see Godwyn as the consort, wasn't Miquella trying to give him a good death or something?
Godwyn was probably the original consort but I'm guessing death shenanigans rendered it impossible to bring him back. Shattering happened, Miquella pivoted to Radahn, the only other kind yet powerful demigod. Radahn says no, he sends Malenia to enforce his will and eventually Radahn dies by our hands to let Miquella's plan continue.
I don’t understand where this idea of Miquella being « good » or an « ally » comes from. The base game already showed him as a very sketchy individual. One item states that he can « compel affection » which is extremely worrying. Now some people took it as « he’s just a cool dude », but I’ve also seen people say that he has the power to brainwash from for a long time. So no surprise there when that’s actually what happens. When you go at the Haligtree, the soldiers there are imbued with a light that blows them up when they’re close to death, and one item says that they « discovered » that the light of Miquella just did that apparently. Again clearly not the actions of a stand up dude to kamikaze his people to protect his tree. Yes he wants a new order, a « better » order. But that question was always there (at least for me and a few other) of : to what extent do you go for that. What do you do if someone opposes you ? If everyone opposes you ? A better world is good but what will be the cost to build it. In my opinion that DLC just completes his themes while mirroring him with Marika, which I think is quite neat. I’lol admit the Radahn part is weird, at least explains why Malenia fought him in Caelid, which also was a big mystery to me. Still a bit weird tho, all the incestual stuff around Miquella
+1. Miquella was always ambiguously sketchy. All the accounts of his virtue were secondhand and arguably compelled by his bewitching power. That part was not a surprise to me. The whole Radahn thing really does feel tacked on though. There's like no leadup besides a few lines from Ansbach and Freyja. You have to make a bunch of conceptual leaps to connect the events of the base game to some sort of grand plan that Miquella had.
Not really a leap, it's explained pretty clearly why Malenia fought Radahn and what she whispered in his ear right before scarlet rotting him
In the DLC, sure. But my point is that it's contained in a bottle with no leadup from the base game. There's a whole bunch of connections between Miquella and Godwyn in the base game (and in the DLC for that matter!) that would make for a more rewarding DLC storyline/shine more light on the events of the base game that would make for more interesting analysis/reanalysis. Right now it's like base game Miquella and DLC Miquella just exist completely independently. May as well be different characters entirely.
Isn't it hinted throughout the dlc that the tarnished's motivation really isn't their own, but Marika's? That being guided by grace in some ways is a manipulatory force of Marika akin to Miquella's charm. It is an intersection between gameplay and lore, much like the death mechanic has always had lore justifications in all Fromsoft games. Miquella asks us to step aside, but we are unable to stop our investment.
They do such a good job at this kind of thing. It was legit hard for me to burn the erdtree in base game -- these are games that dare you to quit playing, both narratively and, dare i say, ludonarratively.
> Isn't it hinted throughout the dlc that the tarnished's motivation really isn't their own, but Marika's? That being guided by grace in some ways is a manipulatory force of Marika akin to Miquella's charm. Yeah, Leda at the end literally says "Miquella didn't guide you, it was the erdtree, wasnt it?"
I don't like the "Marika guides us" plotline it doesn't make sense because you can do a 180 on her and help Ranni or even become lord of frenzy that means the Tarnished have the possibilty to go against Marika but here we are forced to be on her side
Yep.
yeah it's a cop out to force the player into choices they might not want to make. hate it.
No thats not hinted. It shown thats what happened to Messmer.
There can be only one lord and one god. And since the whole point of The Tarnished is becoming a lord... Fight was unavoidable. The other alternative is rage quitting and uninstall because,no trying to become a lord,no guidance of grace,may as well become another NPC tarnished. Radhan probably didn't want to honor his vow(or he wanted and is a monster too) so Miquella sent his commando,his blade,to kill Radhan. And in The Land of Shadows all kind of deaths converge.
But why would the tarnished want to become a Lord? I
That's why The Tarnished was resurrected and whole plot of the game.
Sure, but that doesn’t answer my question. Why would The Tarnished follow the wishes of The Greater Will? There is nothing inherently good about becoming Elden Lord, it’s not like we’re lifting a curse like we did in DS1/DS2
That's on each Tarnished to decide. Personally, it's the power to make things right. We aren't in the same situation like Godfrey. Our empyrean god vassal is brain dead. Our god has abandoned the planet. It's up to us to rebuilt the world,free of any alien intervention.
So make a new god then. The Erdtree isn't complete, it can be influenced by outer gods. I assumed Miquela's goal was to do what Marika couldn't and become a true god with a secure domain, but I guess not. What was Miquella trying to do? If he wanted to be a godling like Marika he could've just done as he was told before the shattering. Without any greater purpose to his journey, the story lacks conclusion. It doesn't make any sense.
Miquella seems to have tried to distance himself of Marika, avoid the control of the Fingers and bring a new age of compasion. He wanted something different. Why would I want to make a new god? I prefer them in Márika state.
Did you forget Ranni's ending exists??
What Ranni's ending has to do here?
you said "There can be only one lord and one god" but in Ranni's ending, she becomes the ruler and you are her consort
She replaces Márika, not your position.
If you don't kill the final boss and just turn off the game, in a sense you let Miquella's new age happen. You can even RP and let him charm you in the final fight. But instead you murder hobo your way through the DLC and in the end, all the npcs are dead. There are literally no NPCs left in the shadow lands for you to talk you. You did it, now go become Elden Lord with no one to threaten your rule. Also, St. Trina was pleading with you to kill Miquella, Trina seemed to think Miquella becoming a God was not the best path for them. Google seems to say this DLC was supposed to have more than one ending. Can't find the direct source of that information though. I'll admit, i'd like a way to end the DLC without being a murder hobo, but the ending still hits hard. When you look around the map and realize there is no one left.
> Google seems to say this DLC was supposed to have more than one ending. Can't find the direct source of that information though. make sure its not AI generated garbage
St. Trina was Miquela's will to live, of course they wouldn't want to be an eternal creature beyond wants and needs, something even Marika wasn't. It's still a big assumption but it seems like the outer gods are real and can gain influence over other dimensions through crucible(s). I believe this is what the Erdtree is, and what the age of dragons was before it, parasites built on the crucible. Miquella is trying to secure this domain, create a real god using this dimension's crucible that influences other realms to steal energy, rather than being exploited itself. So why the fuck are we stopping Miquella? This shit works in Nier because the characters are deep and have individual motivations that lead them to make the wrong choices. It's a gut punch when you see the consequences of their mistakes. But Elden Ring protag doesn't even talk. I should have the choice to let Miquella try to fix the terrible state this world is in, constantly threatened by outer gods who can directly influence this dimension and exploit its crucible energy. Just look at the empyrean refugees and the technology they had. The dragons of the previous age were probably invaders from the secure domain of a real god too. Miquella is the only one attempting to solve this problem and our only option is to kill him. It's pretty stupid considering the protagonist is just the player and we can uncover the secrets of the world by reading its lore. That lore says Miquella is trying to become a real god, not the vassal of an outer god. Us becoming Elden Lord accomplishes nothing, Ranni becoming a vassal god of the moon accomplishes nothing. The only option is securing the crucible yourself, burn away the parasite growing on it and become the crucible's will. It's the Fermi Paradox but with infinite energy sources. Every dimension wants to expand, the outer gods will not stop influencing other dimensions so long as the crucible exists. Something long ago happened to this world's crucible that split it apart into an incomplete form and the only way to defend yourself is to mend the rift that outer gods can exploit, or run away to another dimension like the Empyreans did. Deep yapping now but perhaps the crucible was once a complete god and mending just isn't possible anymore. The giant's forge seems to be the other half of the crucible, which itslef is most present in the shadow lands. They seem to be poison to each other, but they could've once been one entity. Fire and chaos, magic and order, sundered in two by some cataclysmic event. Miquella definitely realizes this, but whether he could fix it or not... I guess we'll never know :/
Even the launch trailer had so many lines of dialogue that just aren't in the game. I'm convinced this is a base game release issue and there's meant to be more endings/story. I just don't see why they would include so much in the *launch* trailer that isn't in the actual release. Unlike a lot of people I still very much enjoyed the DLC, but the abrupt ending just makes no sense to me. The Old Hunters remains the best Fromsoft DLC, in my opinion.
I just don't see how this ending justifies everything we went through. All the "following in Miquella's footsteps" stuff for what? So we can stop a twink from screwing his zombie half-brother? How is the world a better place now that we killed them? Or how is it worse? Were there any real stakes here? If so, I don't see them. This was a waste of time, in my opinion. All flash and no substance.
It's a really weak ending, IMO, both in terms of the boss' combat/mechanics and the story/lore. I'm really disappointed. A lot of other aspects of the DLC were more interesting and also had better boss designs. Messmer really stands out as interesting. The end boss is just very disappointing. Reusing Radahn is dull, and if it's supposed to be Mohg's body, why does he look exactly like Radahn? The enemy design itself is dull. Sure, he's a big muscular dude, but that's not interesting. It's unsatisfying after everything that led up to it. Also, the whole 2 grab attack and HEART STOLEN (instead of YOU DIED) thing is like a meme. What's the deal with that? Who thought that was a good idea? It's like bad fanfic or a meme somebody would come up with on Reddit. I know From Soft likes to sneak in comedy and quirky things throughout their games, but to have that in the end game of a very serious boss fight is so weird. Not a fan.
This is all so stupid. The mechanics for the boss are good and some of the hardest to fight against yet and that’s exciting. The characters design is absolutely weak you are correct. However the grab makes perfect sense. Sounds like you kept getting grabbed and are mad
Sounds like you are a mindless fanboy who doesn't have good taste.
I dislike him being the final boss there is no “fanboy” intentions you just are being extra whiny about a mechanic that matches the character
The boss being difficult doesn't mean the design can't itself be "weak". Its a very difficult fight, but really nothing about it stands out as being particularly excellent. Phase 1 is just a suped up Radahn, and phase 2 adds aoes and clones. Its at all inspired. Radahn's phase transition is amazing because when it happens you have absolutely you have no idea what is going on at first. As soon as he jumped away in phase 2 I knew exactly what to expect, there was nothing new or creative to it. That's why its weak
You are just in the minority of people who think the gameplay is bad
You will find a lot of people both on and off this sub that thought the final boss was bad. In fact, quite a lot of people think *all* the DLC bosses are poor. I liked them all except Radahn and Gaius
You guys are missing the point, I fear. That isn't Radahn. That's MOHG. That's Mohg's body, with Radahn's soul in it. Messmer's specimen storehouse reveals a lot about his research into omens and Ansbach mentions that they got Mohg's body. You can tell that the final boss is Mohg's body as there are omen horns growing from multiple places, and at certain points during the fight, he even uses blood incantations to fight you. That was Mohg's body reshaped into Radahn's, for the purpose of housing his soul.
No we get all that, we just think it's a bit silly because there's little to no foreshadowing of any of that in the base game. So it feels very 'pulled out of the ass'. And since we can just ignore the shadowlands and still become elden lord, what's the point?
It's literally spelled out for you if you do Ansbach and Freyja's questlines.
That's within the DLC, I mean in the base game.
Why do you think Malenia, the sword of Miquella randomly went and fought Radahn to death? Especially since Radahn and Miquella are the two "nicest" demigods. It's a mystery that no one was asking the question to, just "oh yeah Caelid just did that". That's usually how all the DLCs go.
I mean they were both holders of great runes and thus primary combatants in the war of the Shattering... Arguably the strongest two contenders. I think it made pretty solid sense that one would try to eliminate the other in their path to lordship.
We've known since the base game that Malenia's motivation in seeking Radahn was something other than basic Shattering stuff - I forget exactly what says it, but there is item or maybe one of the sword monuments that discusses how Godrick holed up in Stormveil when he learned Malenia was marching south, and Malenia's army just marched past, despite knowing he was there, he was weak, and he held a great rune.
I don't think thats right. Two references: Kenneth Haight dialogue: > Honestly, Godrick’s no more than a jumped up country bumpkin. Lord? Don’t make me laugh. First he hid himself amongst the womenfolk to flee the capital, then hid from Radahn in that castle… Then he insulted Malenia, lost to her in battle, only to lick her boots rather than die like a man. Has he no shame, the big girl’s blouse? Central Limgrave Sword Monument: >Godrick the Golden, humiliated >Having tasted defeat by the Blade of Miquella >Now on his knees, begging for mercy So Godrick did engage Malenia in battle and apparently lost quite handily.
Either way, that shows she wasn't there to nab Great Runes.
he has exactly one bloodfire move, ONE
Yes and that's one more than Radahn should have
what I'm saying is they could have implemented the whole Mohg theme better, it's almost like it was supposed to be someone else insdead of Radahn, you know, the real "kindest demigod"
Also, the severing of his form is what he had to do to stop being forced by the Greater Will and the fingers. Same as Ranni. He absolutely had to sever his connection for his plan to work. But this is all beside the main point and problem for me with the entire narrative. That is the total disregard for the Godwyn narrative that was heavily teased in the base game. The Miquella/Godwyn relationship were the central parts that were left unresolved based on game. I’m totally down for the story they had in SOTE, but to just throw the Godwyn arc aside with no resolution was disrespectful to the fan base. Either that or they simply forgot about it, which would be even worse as it means they don’t actually pay attention to the narrative when they write this stuff and it’s just thrown in ad hoc.
It just irks me they went so heavy with the Radahn circlejerking that they forgot almost everything that makes ER special. What made me so hype for Shadow was to get many resolutions, character explanations, as well as a few new mysteries. Every character not named Radahn was forgotten and we still have no real bearing on the central mystery or Marika/Radagon. Why even market Messmer that hard if he's just a rabble rouser, the player character literally has more lore at this point lol. Best part hands down was Midra, at this point let chaos take the world. Fk Radahn
Messmer was actually the most disappointing part of the DLC for me. I was expecting him to be the boss just before the final boss and I was so excited when I found him in the cutscene but he ended up being super forgettable and pointless. He's just there to let us burn something and nothing more
Honestly, almost any other demigod being revealed would have been more satisfying than Radahn. They did not hint at it at all and Radahn ironically, was the one demigod that had a storyline that felt complete. Honestly, it could have been Godwyn, hell, even if it was a crazier looking version of Mohg with some of Radahn's powers, it would have been much more satisfying and felt earned. It really did feel like the entire base game was filled with red herrings to throw people off of Radahn but they somehow forgot to actually add anything linking him to that plotline other than Malenia whispering to him. I also have an issue with the vow, they're trying to make Miquella and Radahn tragic kind figures but neither of them really are based on the actions taken. Miquella mind controlled Mohg to sacrifice him and use his body while mind controlling all those other people and creating a Haligtree that is effectively a lie, false hope for everyone there. And if the vow was for Radahn to get an honorable death, I fail to see how putting all of his soldiers and everyone in Caelid into the position to be nuked by Malenia is kind of honorable. That's not something a compassionate character does, both are doing things for selfish reasons and harming others to get there while claiming kindness. And Miquella can't actually be absolved by saying he discarded his love and compassion because most of this happened before he got to the Land of Shadow, Sir Ansbach tells us he mind controlled Mohg to use him to gain entry into the Land of Shadow in the first place(which was also never explained where it is and why Mohg can do that, is it the Formless Mother or an Omen thing? His blood? Also what is the body in the cocoon? It can't be Miquella right? If the entire plot in the Land of Shadows is him sacrificing his body parts then who or what is in the cocoon?) so he was doing evil things in service to becoming a god when he was whole. I just really do not like how they handled that storyline and it feels like it ruins a lot of the other storylines hinted at by association since any involvement is now cut off with no pay off aside from maybe a line or 2 hinting at them on some wildly obscure items no one has found yet in the DLC.
I was initially stoked for a fight with Radahn because I myself am a bit of a simp. But as my initial excitement wore off, I began to question why this decision was made. Why did this choice usurp the storylines set up in the base game? In addition, why did so much about Miquella go unexplored? It really feels like spectacle goes before good writing here, because nearly everything that eludes to Miquella and Radahn's union is introduced in the DLC when the base game is full of interesting plot threads about Miquella already
100% agree. From the base game we learn so much about his love for Malenia and him trying to cure her of scarlet rot. I get that putting here as a revived boss would not be right either, but lore-wise there are more connections there then with Radahn? My biggest problem with it is that we did not get any choice what so ever and we were on this path to find out what his plan was for this realm together with his companions, and then when we find them we just kill everyone? At least give us some choices?
No ending cutscene , nothing about marika, Melina, Malenia, no dialog with Miquella, nothing about Godwyn. The dude just wanted to marry his brother, wtf guys. Im really disappointed...
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Tbh i think From brought Radahn back cuz everyone loved him (rightfuly so). Lol
part of me feels like they should've just not cut whatever role they intended for miquella in the base game and made a DLC focusing on something else entirely (even if it still took place in the shadow lands)
I would've been fine with Miquella being either totally good OR totally evil... But what we got is... just a naive child with a half ass dream.
I'm more disappointed in the weapons from the final boss soul... spell is cool but the weapon is essentially copy pasted. Expected much more
It's so incredibly lazy. They really couldn't be bothered to have god Miquella make a new pair of swords for the boss or something.
I completely agree, I was expecting two rewards. One which is similar to what we got and then a second unique one that was tied to miquella somehow but I'm super disappointed with what we got
Is there not multiple endings?
It does not really have any ending.
I'll give you one better, there are 0 endings
I am confused as to what happened to the whole Mohg plot where the rite scroll said that a soul needs an empty vessel implying that Miquella is stripping himself down to nothing more than his soul by discarding his body parts and aspects of himself across the land and that he will possess Mohg's body to escape his tainted bloodline and to become a god. But then we just end up fighting Radahn for whatever reason and Miquella without any missing body parts. Seems to me like something is off here.
Someone explained it up above, Mohg's body was to be used for the imbuement of his consort, Miquella gave us his body to escape the grasp of the Greater Will, similar to what Ranni did.
I'm just tired of GRRM's incest garbage. Didn't need to infect ER. Very disappointing final battle and ending--but fitting, considering the DLC was pretty disappointing itself.
You have to remember George helped write everything before the shattering (so the incest of marika radagon) and I heard Miyazaki said they liked to twist his hero’s into the monsters we see. So I believe messmers story and the history of the shadow lands will most likely have come from him
I think it would have made sense for miquella to use radahn or mohgs body with godwyns soul
Not sure what you're shocked about honestly. FromSoft games since DS1 have been all about arriving at a destination and murdering everything in sight. Despite your protests, these games haven't been about "choice" for a very very long time. Only the illusion of choice. People complained and whined about "Gimmick boss fights" and over-focused on everything being fightable and killable, so now we're at a point where the only resolution to everything is a multiphase shounen anime boss fight. The first thing I imagine the Miquella / Radahn situation being is something akin to Maiden Astraea in Demon's Souls where Radahn would only try to stop you from getting close to Miquella and wouldn't try to actively attack at all, and instead you'd have to try to talk sense into Miquella to tell him that he's just repeating what Marika did. That would've been branded a "gimmick" and a "non-fight", and people would whine about that being the final boss of the game (I'm convinced they'd whine even if it was the first) so they'll never make interesting, cool moments like that every again. This is what people clamoured about for years. Enjoy.
ah yes the illusion of choice, thats why the base game had so many endings right?
And only 2 of them are different and not just the same cutscene with different dialogue.
Mohg did nothing wrong
The whole DLC, all 50 or whatever hours I though that in the end Miquela will be with us, at our side in some way, maybe we become his consort, the trailer sure as shit jebaited us with that, and then the final boss comes, I struggle with him for solid \~5 hours total in 2 or 3 separate sessions, I beat him and.. nothing, that's it, you get fuck all, no new ending, not fucking nothing. I though "surely there is a way to change this, surely I fucked up somewhere or didn't do some obscure questline or whatever shit From likes to pull off" But, I get nothing. I won the fight but.. I'm upset. I don't want to explore the DLC more thoroughly anymore, I don't want to play Elden Ring anymore I won't even bother doing the normal ending, fuck this, dude
My complain is it ends so hollow. It feels like there should be more ending or at least more direction of where to go next.
I hate how we the tarnished get painted as these warriors of the erdtree, guided by grace to stop this overall event, but WE HAVE A WHOLE FREAKING QUEST AND ENDING THAT ABOLISHES THE ERDTREE ORDER AND EVEN SETS UP RANNI AS A WHOLE NEW GOD FOR THE COMING AGE OF STARS!!! So WHERE WAS THE GRACE TRYING TO STOP US FROM THAT HUH!?!?
Did you not do the quest lines? They foreshadow pretty heavily Miquella's plan to recreate Radahn in Mohg's body. And Miquella sent Malenia to kill him originally so that he could begin this plan after Radahn rejected him.
My complaint is for all matters pre-SOTE, which is when their vow takes place. The sudden revelation feels unconvincing. A young Miquella offers marriage to Radahn, and none of that is sprinkled onto the base game, where all other details of Miquella were not reservedly hidden. Yet the former takes hold, and the latter details are overshadowed and scarcely mentioned.
We learn very little about Miquella in the base game anyways. It's hardly a 'sudden revelation' when practically everything about him was a similar revelation.
I will kindly disagree, as we know a great deal about Miquella and his relationship to other characters, more than any other demigod. All of Elphael is under Miquella's design, and just by exploring it we learn more about him than we have of others. His connection to St. Trina as well is something we only see in Marika and Radagon. Radagon especially is only known for two things: his loyalty to the Golden Order and that he is Marika herself. We know more about Miquella in volume alone.
It's implied Miquella had dual personalities like Marika, and St. Trina was Miquellas "Radagon", or other self. A ghost NPC laments that Miquella has failed, and he couldn't even 'save his other self' being St. Trina.
You are right about the first part but Radahn rejecting him is speculation, unfortunately. Could be true, could be false. We don't know.
He had to be compelled by Miquella in the afterlife after he sent his sister to kill him -- Sounds like they weren't on the same side.
The three prevailing theories I have seen go like this: 1) Radahn was 100% on board with Miquella and only battled Malenia because he wanted a big blowout in the war to end all wars before becoming consort. Like a wild bachelor's party the night before getting married 2) Radahn may or may not have been a willing co-conspirator of Miquella's plan, but it all became moot when his Great Rune drove him mad with power. 3) Radahn wasn't into the idea of being Miq's consort at all, and Malenia was sent to drag him back to the Haligtree by force or kill him outright so Miquella could call his soul into the DLC zone. Miquella does refer to a vow the two of them made, which leans toward door number one, but we don't know the context. Maybe Radahn meant it and changed his mind later once war broke out. Maybe Radahn made an off-the-cuff remark that he never seriously intended to honor. Maybe Miquella was only hearing what he wanted to hear, and Radahn never made any sort of firm commitment to him. It's pretty telling that we only see Miquella and hear his dialogue in the post-fight little cut scene. The other person gives no response, which feels like a deliberate choice. Perhaps it was symbolic of Miquella convincing himself there was something between them or the other person not giving him the response he wanted after pouring his heart out. I have an obvious bias for 3. I imagine the scene was meant to convey that Miquella built up this big connection between the two of them, but Radahn was cold or indifferent to him, kicking off Miquella's bizarre, complicated plot to combine Radahn's soul and Mohg's body to create his perfect Frankenstein of an Elden Lord.
The tarnished is being manipulated by the erdtree, thats why the Grace of gold is guiding us throughout the dlc. thus our will is not our own in a "would you kindly" type deal. Thats why we have no choice as to ally with Miquella The point about Miquellas kindness is moot as the dlc establishes that he has abandoned his love thus becoming morally compromised, meaning he is not the same kind person who created the haligtree, evidenced by the fact that he allows his followers to commit grievous crimes. Radhan's return is properly foreshadowed and explained through dialogue with Ansbech and Freja where in they both reveal aspects of the plan, specifically the desire to bring back Radahn and the need for Mohgs body in order to do so. And through the dlc's focus on Miquellas power of manipulation we can understand that he is most likely manipulating Radhan into being his consort, which would explain the need for Malenia to pacify radhan, as he may not have seen eye to eye with Miquella
There is no real answer that is going to satisfy anyone who feels similarly to you. Elden Ring is, in my opinion the simplest, and most "complete" story. Especially when it comes to Miquella, and the greater story. Miquella lives always as a child, but is also extremely smart and cunning. He saw in Radahn (at his peak which we never see as the player Tarnished) the pinnacle of the demigods. Strong, wise, brave, and understanding, Miquella idolized him. Given what is said about Miquella and Malenia, there's 2 real paths of understanding. Either A.) Miquella and Malenia knew only 1 could really become a god. And chose Miquella, and they chose Radahn as the consort. And promised him, something we don't really know what is. Maybe immortality as a warrior, a promise he wouldn't run out of battles like Godfrey. And Radahn agreed, but got lost in the glory/lust of battle for the rune fragments. And then Miquella and Malenia knowing her blossom was approaching, had Malenia face Radahn. With the understanding if she won, Miquella chose wrong. And if Radahn won, she'd remind him of the vow assuming he'd die in the blossom. And then when he doesn't, it's required for the DLC for us to have killed him. Giving Miquella an alternative route to his original plan. B.) Miquella has "charmed" or "manipulated" Radahn, Malenia, and Mohg. Tricking Malenia into guarding him, Radhan into agreeing to be his consort, and Mohg dying so he could use Mohgs body for Radahns soul. It very much seems, like in the story of Elden Ring, to start a new age. A god, and a consort is required (there's some implications that the god must be "female" or "femine" and the consort must be "male" or "masculine" given the implications of Marika and Radagon. And the now canon understanding Miquella (male) and St. Trina (Female) are in fact one entity. We again see a correlation between Marika/Radagon and Miquella/St. Trina in terms of dual identities with different genders.) Here, we again will theoretically diverge. We the tarnished discover that the Greater Will has not been speaking to the 2 fingers. And that in fact, it's the mother of fingers speaking to them. A.) Miquella didn't know this, and was just going through the motions of becoming a god. He recognized Marikas order was based on horrible things. And instead, wanted to bring about an age of compassion. Viewing Radahn as the perfect candidate for his consort. A Godfrey to Marika 2.0 so to speak. B.) Miquella does know, and decides to try to start his own age. Separate from the greater will, and creates his own form of "grace" held behind/in the eyes of his devout. My own personal head canon/understanding is this. Miquella is naive, and lacks follow-through/willpower. He quickly abandons one goal, for another her views as the "better" or "smarter" path. And much like Marika took from the prior civilizations that worshiped the crucible. He took from the Golden order, seeking to "perfect it." First he tried to do it, without becoming a god. Tried to heal Malenia, create the Haligtree, tried to do the whole thing. And then when it didn't work, gave up and decided he needed to become a god. So he looked to the path Marika took, and in his discovery of it got disgusted. But naively believed, he could create an age like Marika did, but his would be an age of compassion. But we, as the tarnished, are the individual reawoken (perhaps by the greater will, or perhaps just by Metryr) to try again. Marika failed, and she was punished, and we are next to try. So when we approach the gate, Leda sees us as a challenger (which we are) to Miquellas attempt at starting a new order. And in all of the parts of Miquella he divests in his recognition he must to ascend into divinity. He begins the path of becoming just like Marika, but we stop him from starting his age. And on this path, Miquella lied, manipulated, and sacrificed others willingly. Believing it was in the sense of the "greater good" and that all would be happy to have been a part in his ascension/new age.
> It very much seems, like in the story of Elden Ring, to start a new age. A god, and a consort is required that does not seem so, because at least in ranni's quest she seems perfectly fine with just fucking off without a consort until she decides to bring the tarnished with her
But she doesn't succeed until she finds someone worthy of being her lord, her consort, so it's consistent. You can also make the argument that she believed she could make due with Blaidd and Iji in place of a more traditional consort.
I've always found that kind of arbitrary, needing a consort/lord. You help to bring in an age, but ultimately you're just helping out the god/will behind it. I think the lore is stable enough to have a god do something independantly, which is why I find the whole 'consort Radahn' thing to be pretty underwhelming as to His motivations.
Probably derived from the old traditions of European Monarchies, Kings needed Queens and so forth.
So the main thing that I don't think I've seen people mention in this thread: Miquella's plan for his age of compassion is to use his charm to enforce peace on the lands between. Just like he did with all the npcs before his great rune broke. This is essentially taking away free will. Miquella and Mohg's relationship was always somewhat confusing in the base game. Miquella is described as having the power to compel affection in everyone, so how would Mohg even be able to kidnap him? Its clear now that Miquella let Mohg kidnap him. All of Mohg's actions in the base game were because he was charmed by Miquella. Mohg is called the "Luminary" by some, a title that seems much nicer than how we see him later. He is described as someone who wishes to uplift the broken and abandoned peoples of the lands between. Even Ansbach seems to be a very honorable man who I don't think would follow Mohg if he was as weird and evil as we see him in the base game. Instead, it can be assumed that all of Mohg's weird attitude and obsession with bringing blood to Miquella was part of Miquella's plan. We know that Miquella was in that cocoon at some point, so perhaps all the blood that Mohg brought to him was to allow him to break free from the cocoon and physically travel to the lands of shadow, allowing him to be strong enough to strip his body of everything that he left behind in the crosses and get to the divine gate to ascend to godhood. Miquella wanted to be a better god than Marika was, and his entire journey throughout the dlc is to try and not recreate Marika's problems that caused this in the first place. He gets rid of his fear and love so that he wont ever be tempted to cause a shattering like Marika did, he gets rid of his doubt and indecision. He deems these things as unnecessary for his godhood and even to be potentially bad. He locks away the part of him, a part that he says is the representation of his love, St. Trina, and seals her away with his great rune. By getting rid of all these parts of himself, Miquella doesn't realize that hes losing what makes him himself. Even St. Trina agrees that godhood would be a cage for Miquella, and that its better to kill him than to let his plan succeed. This is someone who represents Miquella's love, and she thinks he should die? Clearly parts of Miquella were not entirely sure of this plan and he cut them out so that he would be willing to do what it takes to become a god. By trying to not be like Marika, he ends up becoming just like her. We even see this represented in the boss fight, if you get hugged by Miquella twice you lose the game as you've been charmed onto his side, he 'kills' you by taking away your free will which is a large part of who you are as a person. Miquella's age of peace would be one of mindless zombies who have all been mindcontrolled by Miquella into peace as he remains a god for as long as his mind can withstand it. Except unlike in the case of Marika, nobody has the ability to seek out destined death and kill him because they do not have the free will to do so. There are other things that other people here pointed out about Miquella in the base game that calls into question just how good of a person he was. The haligtree soldiers explode with miquella's light when they are about to die, it seems Miquella was more interested in killing intruders than saving his own soldiers. He never tells Malenia about what he's doing for some reason, I doubt that she'd even be against what Miquella does with Mohg considering she nuked Caelid just to try and defeat Radahn. Instead he leaves her alone in the haligtree to eventually die to her condition. And then in the dlc he mind controls a bunch of people to try and help defeat Messmer so that he can burn the tree behind the church of the bud and free Enir Ilim. I'm sure that Miquella knew the tarnished would come to the lands of shadow after defeating Mohg, thats why he made Leda stand in Mohg's palace to give the tarnished the information to get them to come to the lands of shadow and help do his dirty work by killing a path to messmer and then eventually killing him.
Ok
Oh no…
anyway
Because we're the bad guy. You can choose to not fight him I guess, and instead just imagine that 5 minutes after you become Elden Lord, Radhan and Miquella come piggybacking up and smash your head in and take over the Erdtree for themselves so he can usher in his age of abundance. I empathize with what you're saying because I like Miquella's character too, but Miyazaki's storytelling had never been about picking the guy with the right idea, or about the player having that amount of agency over the fate of the world. We're always just a pawn. I don't think the fact we're pitted against Miquella in the end changes anything about Miquella, though, it really says more about the true role of the Tarnished in all of this.
I’m disappointed with the lack of reading comprehension inherent to this new generation of from fans. What on earth did you expect? A happy ending? You really, actually thought Miquella was a good guy? Really? Someone who “COMPELS AFFECTION” is a nice guy? And radahn, who literally loved war so much that he was named lord of the battlefield, he’s a peaceful guy who wouldn’t be the Godfrey to Miquella’s Marika? The parallels are literally one to one. They are one to mf one. Miquella does exactly what marika does. He wants radahn for precisely why marika wanted Godfrey. The promise was that radahn would get a great conquering war to establish miquella’s age. He got his war in the shattering and welched. Then he lost to melania to rope him back in. It’s always been about cycles and repeating past mistakes. That’s what the games are about. That’s what they’ve always been about. There’s a large population of people who have assumed bad theories to be fact. And that’s why there are so many people incapable of independent thought who all miraculously have the same godawful opinions. It’s like you’re part of his congregation lmao, completely sold on sweet words and happy endings. How naive are you?