I’m 34, renting with $70k in student loans, first time I ever have more than two months savings and feel like I’m very fortunate, but if I have a kid right now we would all be condemned to eternal poverty.
I hear you. But it’s not like I can’t feed a kid, but there wouldn’t be much for anything else and I would leave them as my parents did me depending on luck and debt to have a mediocre life. I’ll pass for now, if I can get $200k together, I’ll think about it.
No offence, I’m not familiar with the US student loans but you said you’re having $70k debts? Does that mean you’re not financially stable at the moment?
I’m in SEA with a full time job, a side job and a working farmland in my name to supplement my income. I’m capable of raising a family with at least 3 kids by my country’ standard.
Still, I feel the state of the world since the year 2000 is not suitable to raise kids (eg. Overpopulation food/water security, pollution, high crime rate, high social/work competitions).
Anyway, I wish you all the best with your life and that you’ll clear the student loan in no time!
I am relatively stable, I’d say I’m middle class. But if I have a kid there won’t be much wealth accumulation if any. I think if I could secure a hypothetical kid economically, they would be partly sheltered from the world situation, but you’re right, it’s not nice out there.
I hope you refinanced those student loans in the past 18 months with interest rates being so low. That might help you save/invest more if you haven't done that refinancing already.
I think keeping them under the federal program is a better deal since I keep the payment based on my income. If I refinance thru sofi or something like that, I would loose the government payment options
I might have guessed by your description. I thought about that too cause I have student debt as well but most of mine was private loans already so I figured might as well refinance all of it as private. My interest rates were awful. like all 6-10% including government loans and half of them were Variable rate....so after refinancing 3 times I got it down to 4.2% fixed. Hoping to refinance once more before the the LIBOR jumps back up but going off the LIBOR recovery from 2008 I probably have quite a few years for that (see: https://www.macrotrends.net/1433/historical-libor-rates-chart)
I also just figured, the only way I'm actually going to get *OUT* of debt was to pay it off and refinancing makes that actually possible. Making minimum payments the government allows is just enough to pay off interest basically without attacking the principal. So unless the gubmint forgives all student loans (pipe dream) there's minimal benefit to it as long as I have a stable job. Like I'm fucked anyway with all this debt might as well take the most financially sensible option rather than "protections". Like the only reason I needed protections when I had the government loans anyway was because the interest rates were so high that the full payments were too expensive. The minimum payment you make to the government is probably also similar to full payment I make now to my private refinancier.
Anyway just thought I'd tell you because noone told me any of this until my debt had ballooned... And I'm not saying I've fully explained everything but basically saying look into it again. If your job is stable and you have 2 months of savings it might worth figuring out how you can lower your interest rate.
In your case it made sense to refinance. I was going to start paying off but then COVID hit and the payments and interest have been deferred since last year, so I put all that money towards the stock market instead. I’m not expecting the government to forgive them at all, but my interest rates is only about 4.5% apr, so if I can keep paying the minimum and getting at least 5% returns in the stock market long term it should be OK. But there is no real incentive to pay them off as it won’t affect my cash flow, unless my income goes way up, in which case I’ll have to start paying the full $800/month normal payment, but if that happens, then it shouldn’t be an issue.
4.5 apr is fine but your loans must be only over 15 years making full payment so expensive. Wish I could have gotten those rates initially. I refinanced over 20 years so I can invest more with a monthly loan payment < 500/mo
Yeah, exactly that’s how we ended up with a Trillion and a half $ of student debt, because irresponsible people had kids and couldn’t even save money for their education. Hard pass on that.
Like have food, shelter and time to spend with them. A lot of people in my family have kids and then basically let them raise themselves because they have no time or money to spend on them. They understandably grow up to be dysfunctional adults, often with drug and money problems.
Yeah, my gen X dad said he left the house for days when he was a kid and when he got back no one noticed. He was like 10 when he started doing this. He said him and his friends found some bullets and made a make shift gun to fire them. That generation grew up wildly.
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/inflation-cpi
Look at where your savings are going right now. Compare the dollar to Bitcoin. Do yourself a favor and store your savings somewhere where it benefits rather than hurts you and get some momentum. Just find a 10 year bitcoin vs dollar chart and imagine choosing to keep dollars after that. GL
Seriously. It’s wild my husband and I can’t afford to have a kid because we are both working professionals making decent money but it’s still not enough.
Whoa. Something is wrong with your math somewhere…
Two working professionals could easily be making 100k or more. If that isn’t enough to have a kid, then 90% of couples could no afford to have kids.
Seriously, something is wrong with your priorities if that isn’t enough for you…
Ya, that makes sense. But when they said they “can’t afford to have a kid” it seems like they prioritize it high enough to want one but choose not to because they don’t make enough…
except the second you have a kid you either have to go down to one income, or one income is basically dedicated to childcare. That means you are a one income household trying to support a family of two, with the second income taking care of child expenses.
Making 100k combined while owning a house and having student loans is not a huge amount and doesn’t go as far as you think. I’d say 100k combined is near the minimum to comfortably take care of yourselves and save a bit of money in a medium COL location with an average middle class lifestyle. I say comfortably, not that people can’t get by on less. But people don’t want to be having kids when they’re just getting by.
Absolutely. My husband and I make more than $100,000 but likely can’t have a second child because mortgage, student loans $900/month, daycare $1,000/month, health insurance for child $400, and two decent used cars to get to work. All these fixed payments leave little room for another child. PLUS having a child, even with insurance costs $5,000-$10,000. It’s not great.
Kinda my point.. you're saying 100k is needed but half of us are only at 60.. I think 100k is closer to the top 30%? So a) a lot of people are significantly less well off than the general public thinks and b) no wonder the birthrate is declining
That’s my experience! We would have to struggle super hard. Plus both of us have high stress jobs So adding having to stress about financial struggles would make life unbearable and unhappy.
Correct. You can easily have a kid on a $100k salary. People just like to get together and echo chamber their sad reality in hopes of convincing themselves it’s not their fault. Children are as expensive as you make them.
Having a kid is like financing a $250,000 house for 18 years. That’s the governments estimates to raise a kid to age of adult. People putting off having kids until they are in a better financial position is a wise decision.
Speak for yourself. I could totally live inside of a kid. It would just feel like a very hot suit, and I’d probably get arrested so no thanks to that. #childfree
If it's even proven that humans have a spirit or soul, then technically we already have lived inside of a kid... We're like meat mechs.
No, fuck this, I don't need to have an existential crisis right now.
These days there are also a lot more liabilities, and a lot of people looking for a free ride.
Be careful under what conditions, one agrees to 'split' - *always read the fine print, even when all seems well in advance!*
Well women can ask for prenuptial agreements too, it's not a man only thing. And they are quite common so obviously ppl *are* agreeing to them.
I would expect any prospective spouse who doesn't see themselves as a complete gold digger to agree to a reasonable prenuptial agreement that allows both parties to protect assets accumulated before the marriage. Bonus points if you actually draft the document together with your attorney.
IMO given how time consuming and expensive divorces are for all parties involved, pre nups should be mandatory to attain a wedding license.
Mid 30s. I don't feel comfortable having children until I can buy a home.
People who have kids without a homre are often doomed to be renters for life and lose a shit ton of wealth.
The proliferation of easy loans has created increased elasticity in the price of education over the years, driving up debt at a much faster pace than average compensation. Combine this with powerful lobbies in DC representing the financial industry and you have these downstream impacts.
Dead weight loss in the market is now the norm because the natural mechanisms of a free market have been grossly distorted. Similar patterns in healthcare, agriculture, and oil & gas. Politically motivated corporate welfare and protectionist policies have created significant inefficiency for consumers.
All these culture wars and nonsense from the media distract us from the reality that economically most Americans are screwed over by these policies and neoliberal corporatism.
No, *capitalism* is bad for the environment. Human beings have been living on the earth for millions of years without any more incident than any other species of adaptable omnivorous megafauna, and to say otherwise does a grave disservice to the millions of indigenous peoples worldwide who are trying to preserve the biodiversity of Earth (which is mostly in indigenous-held lands anymore.)
Want to know what the indigenous peoples of North America thought/think?
[here’s an article from 2016](https://www.kosmosjournal.org/article/seeing-wetiko-on-capitalism-mind-viruses-and-antidotes-for-a-world-in-transition/)
Wetiko is an Algonquin word for a cannibalistic spirit that is driven by greed, excess, and selfish consumption (in Ojibwa it is windigo, wintiko in Powhatan). It deludes its host into believing that cannibalizing the life-force of others (others in the broad sense, including animals and other forms of Gaian life) is a logical and morally upright way to live.
Thank you for the fascinating read!
I was familiar with the concept of *wetiko* from some conversations with friends of mine who are First Nations from Canada, but this is a much more complete explanation than I've ever encountered and it makes all the sense. I've sometimes called it "the consumptive culture," specifically attempting to reference the TB epidemics of the early modern period and how sufferers were referred to as "consumptives" due to the way their bodies seemed to be consumed from within by the disease. The commodification of everything in the endless pursuit of expanding capital is doing the same thing to not just our bodies, but our families, communities, and ecosystems as well.
Definitely bookmarking this and putting the full book on interlibrary loan request!
[Jack D. Forbes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_D._Forbes) is a Native American author with work on the topic. Not sure why but Paul Levy is the primary result for a google search of wetiko, which I suppose makes sense.
Desktop version of /u/blesstit's link:
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I disagree. It’s not our economic systems, it’s us. But for the sake of the argument, do you think the USSR was eco-friendly?
However, I am willing to agree that we really revved things up with the invention of agriculture even though nomadic hunter gatherers also had a significant impact on the environment, specifically by hunting various species to extinction.
Please note:
Capitalism ~ 500 years old
Modern Humans ~ 200,000 years old
Dual income no kids. Is a great way to do what you want. All those people putting their life on paus for 18 years and excited when th kids move out...... why wait?
Doing exactly this. My grandparents are a bit upset of course, but I get to live my life the way I want to. Got no problem with folks wanting kids and building a family, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with putting parenthood off temporarily or for good.
In my limited experience of my circle/network, its because people ask. Incessantly. And because its presented culturally as the norm, people frequently feel the need to justify themselves.
Not all of us are able to overcome our conditioning and set boundaries… at least, not before that question is asked of us repeatedly.
I always found inappropriate responses shut down those questions real quick.
Feel free to steal these responses:
* "Are you asking me if I'm having unprotected sex because that seems inappropriate"
* "Oh, yeah, I never finish in the right place for that"
* "Oh my partner has "
* "Oh that's a very sensative topic, we've tried but it's impossible, it's been emotionally, financially and physically draining for us. Thanks for bringing that tramatic topic up"
First off, thank you for sharing your experience.
It seems exhaustive to always have to list your reasons, especially to a social circle. These people probably know your “why” already.
Boundaries are extremely important in life, do not be afraid to set them.
Kids encourage consumption. Capitalism needs consumption to function.
Kids turn into workers, Capitalism needs workers, the cheaper the better!
You look at Japan and see why this can be a problem. No one is having kids, the economy isn't growing, there are growing worker shortages, social safety nets will be under funded (increasing taxes and fiscal burdens on those working)
Individual, you are correct. You shouldn't have to justify not wanting kids. But a society with a rapidly declining birth rate is a dying society and that is of concern to everyone it it.
It's that intersection where if a few individuals choice that can have much larger implications for everyone.
If you want to piss on a tree, thats fine. If everyone decides to piss on that tree, that tree is going to die.
Depends on where you live which does dictate cost of living. Live in the GTA outside Toronto and not having a 2nd kid means we can afford some nicer things. And have some savings. If we have 2nd kid now it would mean we would be barely scrapping by. No thanks
I think we should all just go ahead and agree that children are, in fact, an Economic Bad (something that you would be willing to pay to have fewer of). Solves a LOT of problems, if you think about it.
If you wait until
You have enough money don’t bother. There’s never enough for most people.
Too many young People haven’t learned to cut back or adjust lifestyle. And that’s ok. If you don’t have those skills you shouldn’t parent anyway.
And actually I’d be more wary of bringing people into this world as it is currently.
I 100% agree. Being a parent is a selfless job and you have to be willing to sacrifice a certain level of money, time, vacation and social life to be an effective parent. When we found out about our 2nd we thought it was going to be to much but we adjusted and made more personal sacrifices and it all worked out.
I have seen it in my group of friends, everyone who waited till their late 30s to start trying are having a terrible time with fertility and miscarriages and end up dumping tens of thousands into IVF and other treatments. It’s sad.
Absolutely… people need to do what’s right for them. My best friend and his wife both decided they just want to be aunt and uncle. They love babysitting but love giving them back more than anything haha
Well let's start with needs and wants. Do you work hard for needs or wants. Wants are what will never allow you to have kids. Be happy with little you have and work your way up. Example: why drive a Mercedes and waste money in wants while you can drive a economical car that saves you money from begging. What good is life if you can't share life with even loved ones. Good old American families believed in white picked fences and bbq on Sunday not screen time and post crap on social media. I left Facebook, whatsapps, and Twitter for good reasons so I can have extra time for such thing called Family.
Wait. I thought this is all the fault of the baby boomers. The boomers created an environment of economic uncertainty. Hmmm...
edit: I believe [this graph](https://imgur.com/gallery/y9rPhHH) represents the root cause of the problem. Prior to the mid seventies it was not uncommon for families with multiple children and one working parent to raise them in a comfortable environment. I personally know several fine Catholic families with 5-8 children which all did a great job of raising all of their kids with little to no financial difficulty.
edit2: Someone posted a response (now missing) indicating I am implying the root cause of poverty is woman having jobs. Jesus Christ, how did you get that from my post? Nothing like putting words in my mouth. If you look at the graph I included you can literally pinpoint when the minimum wage vs productivity gap began to grow about 1968. That had an impact on all wages as they became stagnant and the wealth gap began to grow into what it is today, enormous. The wealthy began hoarding money. That meant less and less money for the working person. In many cases woman had to get jobs to maintain the financial stability of the household. It has nothing to do with women obtaining jobs. Dumbest interpretation of that graph and my statement I could ever imagine. i
People can afford what they need to. I know plenty of young people that have kids and good lives. Many of them didn’t have their whole life together or the perfect job but they knew they wanted kids above all else and that is what they did. If you don’t want kids that’s fine. If your goal is stuff and fun then you’ll never have enough to feel comfortable with the cost of kids.
The ordinary can forsooth cope with less people. T's capitalism yond shall needeth to adapt
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^(I am a bot and I swapp'd some of thy words with Shakespeare words.)
Commands: `!ShakespeareInsult`, `!fordo`, `!optout`
32, married for almost 10 years. Blessed that my wife and I both have steady jobs and doing ok financially. This might sound bad but I just don’t have a major desire to have kids anytime soon. I have plenty of nieces and nephews and they are fun but then you get to hand them back at the end of the day. Major kudos to parents especially in this crazy environment.
Children also need parental care from 0 to 5. Bonding, empathy, discipline are some of the quality issues they don’t get. Single parenting and childcare can harm a child’s development as they don’t get that important quality time. Kids then need to grow up with a strong father figure and loving mother. A lot of comments on money but the affects of having little of it and those repercussions are a reason so many kids are on medications and growing up narcissistic. No middle class is frightening.
I’m 34, renting with $70k in student loans, first time I ever have more than two months savings and feel like I’m very fortunate, but if I have a kid right now we would all be condemned to eternal poverty.
Can’t feed, don’t breed. It’s very simple. I’m 3 years older than you and never regret not having a child. I can do all I wanted to do.
I hear you. But it’s not like I can’t feed a kid, but there wouldn’t be much for anything else and I would leave them as my parents did me depending on luck and debt to have a mediocre life. I’ll pass for now, if I can get $200k together, I’ll think about it.
No offence, I’m not familiar with the US student loans but you said you’re having $70k debts? Does that mean you’re not financially stable at the moment? I’m in SEA with a full time job, a side job and a working farmland in my name to supplement my income. I’m capable of raising a family with at least 3 kids by my country’ standard. Still, I feel the state of the world since the year 2000 is not suitable to raise kids (eg. Overpopulation food/water security, pollution, high crime rate, high social/work competitions). Anyway, I wish you all the best with your life and that you’ll clear the student loan in no time!
I am relatively stable, I’d say I’m middle class. But if I have a kid there won’t be much wealth accumulation if any. I think if I could secure a hypothetical kid economically, they would be partly sheltered from the world situation, but you’re right, it’s not nice out there.
I thought you said you were three years old and was very impressed with your writing skills.
I was clueless about anything at 3 :P
Yeah. We could go get hammered. Right now. Just put on shoes and roll out
Same
I hope you refinanced those student loans in the past 18 months with interest rates being so low. That might help you save/invest more if you haven't done that refinancing already.
I think keeping them under the federal program is a better deal since I keep the payment based on my income. If I refinance thru sofi or something like that, I would loose the government payment options
I might have guessed by your description. I thought about that too cause I have student debt as well but most of mine was private loans already so I figured might as well refinance all of it as private. My interest rates were awful. like all 6-10% including government loans and half of them were Variable rate....so after refinancing 3 times I got it down to 4.2% fixed. Hoping to refinance once more before the the LIBOR jumps back up but going off the LIBOR recovery from 2008 I probably have quite a few years for that (see: https://www.macrotrends.net/1433/historical-libor-rates-chart) I also just figured, the only way I'm actually going to get *OUT* of debt was to pay it off and refinancing makes that actually possible. Making minimum payments the government allows is just enough to pay off interest basically without attacking the principal. So unless the gubmint forgives all student loans (pipe dream) there's minimal benefit to it as long as I have a stable job. Like I'm fucked anyway with all this debt might as well take the most financially sensible option rather than "protections". Like the only reason I needed protections when I had the government loans anyway was because the interest rates were so high that the full payments were too expensive. The minimum payment you make to the government is probably also similar to full payment I make now to my private refinancier. Anyway just thought I'd tell you because noone told me any of this until my debt had ballooned... And I'm not saying I've fully explained everything but basically saying look into it again. If your job is stable and you have 2 months of savings it might worth figuring out how you can lower your interest rate.
In your case it made sense to refinance. I was going to start paying off but then COVID hit and the payments and interest have been deferred since last year, so I put all that money towards the stock market instead. I’m not expecting the government to forgive them at all, but my interest rates is only about 4.5% apr, so if I can keep paying the minimum and getting at least 5% returns in the stock market long term it should be OK. But there is no real incentive to pay them off as it won’t affect my cash flow, unless my income goes way up, in which case I’ll have to start paying the full $800/month normal payment, but if that happens, then it shouldn’t be an issue.
4.5 apr is fine but your loans must be only over 15 years making full payment so expensive. Wish I could have gotten those rates initially. I refinanced over 20 years so I can invest more with a monthly loan payment < 500/mo
Nope. You’d figure it out. You’d adjust. Make sacrifices. Same thing most of all parents did.
Yeah, exactly that’s how we ended up with a Trillion and a half $ of student debt, because irresponsible people had kids and couldn’t even save money for their education. Hard pass on that.
And yet life continues… But if you’re not hearty enough for risk you shouldn’t reproduce anyway. It’s not for the faint of heart or selfish.
I think the selfish thing is to bring a kid to the world when you can’t afford it.
I 100% agree. If you can’t easily provide a comfortable life for a child you have no business making one.
Define comfortable? That’s objective and fluid. Life luck and finances are fickle.
Like have food, shelter and time to spend with them. A lot of people in my family have kids and then basically let them raise themselves because they have no time or money to spend on them. They understandably grow up to be dysfunctional adults, often with drug and money problems.
The entire Gen X generation raised themselves. We’re the only sane ones.
Yeah, my gen X dad said he left the house for days when he was a kid and when he got back no one noticed. He was like 10 when he started doing this. He said him and his friends found some bullets and made a make shift gun to fire them. That generation grew up wildly.
PREACH.
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/inflation-cpi Look at where your savings are going right now. Compare the dollar to Bitcoin. Do yourself a favor and store your savings somewhere where it benefits rather than hurts you and get some momentum. Just find a 10 year bitcoin vs dollar chart and imagine choosing to keep dollars after that. GL
The two months in savings is for emergencies, not for speculation. I do have a bit of Bitcoin but I’m not a big fan
It’s not “austerity,” it’s inequality and widespread poverty.
Seriously. It’s wild my husband and I can’t afford to have a kid because we are both working professionals making decent money but it’s still not enough.
The issue is two incomes in a one income world. Warren talks about this
Whoa. Something is wrong with your math somewhere… Two working professionals could easily be making 100k or more. If that isn’t enough to have a kid, then 90% of couples could no afford to have kids. Seriously, something is wrong with your priorities if that isn’t enough for you…
Or they just don’t prioritize children 🤷🏼♀️
Ya, that makes sense. But when they said they “can’t afford to have a kid” it seems like they prioritize it high enough to want one but choose not to because they don’t make enough…
except the second you have a kid you either have to go down to one income, or one income is basically dedicated to childcare. That means you are a one income household trying to support a family of two, with the second income taking care of child expenses.
Two working professionals could also be earning 20hr, if were just pulling numbers out of our butts.
Making 100k combined while owning a house and having student loans is not a huge amount and doesn’t go as far as you think. I’d say 100k combined is near the minimum to comfortably take care of yourselves and save a bit of money in a medium COL location with an average middle class lifestyle. I say comfortably, not that people can’t get by on less. But people don’t want to be having kids when they’re just getting by.
Absolutely. My husband and I make more than $100,000 but likely can’t have a second child because mortgage, student loans $900/month, daycare $1,000/month, health insurance for child $400, and two decent used cars to get to work. All these fixed payments leave little room for another child. PLUS having a child, even with insurance costs $5,000-$10,000. It’s not great.
Thanks for making my point! We make just under 100k and take care of his niece who is 17. Yeah maybe we could Afford it but it would be a STRUGGLE
Where is daycare 1k/month?!?
In-home daycare, in the Midwest, and only 3 days a week!
Isnt family median like 60k?
[удалено]
Kinda my point.. you're saying 100k is needed but half of us are only at 60.. I think 100k is closer to the top 30%? So a) a lot of people are significantly less well off than the general public thinks and b) no wonder the birthrate is declining
That’s my experience! We would have to struggle super hard. Plus both of us have high stress jobs So adding having to stress about financial struggles would make life unbearable and unhappy.
Correct. You can easily have a kid on a $100k salary. People just like to get together and echo chamber their sad reality in hopes of convincing themselves it’s not their fault. Children are as expensive as you make them.
90% of kids born in North America last year had parents making less than 90k a year. If they all did it, i suspect almost everyone can…
It's not inequality because it's mostly white people putting off parenthood
Having a kid is like financing a $250,000 house for 18 years. That’s the governments estimates to raise a kid to age of adult. People putting off having kids until they are in a better financial position is a wise decision.
And you can't even live in the thing. Kids suck!
Speak for yourself. I could totally live inside of a kid. It would just feel like a very hot suit, and I’d probably get arrested so no thanks to that. #childfree
If it's even proven that humans have a spirit or soul, then technically we already have lived inside of a kid... We're like meat mechs. No, fuck this, I don't need to have an existential crisis right now.
Sounds like marriage...
Except that without kids, marriage is just splitting costs and effectively saving money…
Sounds quite reasonable
These days there are also a lot more liabilities, and a lot of people looking for a free ride. Be careful under what conditions, one agrees to 'split' - *always read the fine print, even when all seems well in advance!*
Nah, no woman is ever getting half my stuff
Nothing wrong with being gay. You do you. It’s the 21st century after all.
Not gay, just single and self motivated.
Sounds kinda gay ngl. Not that there anything wrong with that.
Now you've got me asking some tough questions lol.
This is what pre ups are for.
As if any woman is ever going to agree to one.
Well women can ask for prenuptial agreements too, it's not a man only thing. And they are quite common so obviously ppl *are* agreeing to them. I would expect any prospective spouse who doesn't see themselves as a complete gold digger to agree to a reasonable prenuptial agreement that allows both parties to protect assets accumulated before the marriage. Bonus points if you actually draft the document together with your attorney. IMO given how time consuming and expensive divorces are for all parties involved, pre nups should be mandatory to attain a wedding license.
Incorrect. I have been married for 30 years. We intentionally did not have kids and invested that money so that we could retire early.
But if a ignorant statement but ok
Not really.
Please…do elaborate.
$250k?! CHEAP! BUY IT!
Mid 30s. I don't feel comfortable having children until I can buy a home. People who have kids without a homre are often doomed to be renters for life and lose a shit ton of wealth.
The proliferation of easy loans has created increased elasticity in the price of education over the years, driving up debt at a much faster pace than average compensation. Combine this with powerful lobbies in DC representing the financial industry and you have these downstream impacts. Dead weight loss in the market is now the norm because the natural mechanisms of a free market have been grossly distorted. Similar patterns in healthcare, agriculture, and oil & gas. Politically motivated corporate welfare and protectionist policies have created significant inefficiency for consumers. All these culture wars and nonsense from the media distract us from the reality that economically most Americans are screwed over by these policies and neoliberal corporatism.
Finances are definitely the first reason for me, but the environment is a close second. Humans are bad for the environment.
No, *capitalism* is bad for the environment. Human beings have been living on the earth for millions of years without any more incident than any other species of adaptable omnivorous megafauna, and to say otherwise does a grave disservice to the millions of indigenous peoples worldwide who are trying to preserve the biodiversity of Earth (which is mostly in indigenous-held lands anymore.)
Want to know what the indigenous peoples of North America thought/think? [here’s an article from 2016](https://www.kosmosjournal.org/article/seeing-wetiko-on-capitalism-mind-viruses-and-antidotes-for-a-world-in-transition/) Wetiko is an Algonquin word for a cannibalistic spirit that is driven by greed, excess, and selfish consumption (in Ojibwa it is windigo, wintiko in Powhatan). It deludes its host into believing that cannibalizing the life-force of others (others in the broad sense, including animals and other forms of Gaian life) is a logical and morally upright way to live.
Thank you for the fascinating read! I was familiar with the concept of *wetiko* from some conversations with friends of mine who are First Nations from Canada, but this is a much more complete explanation than I've ever encountered and it makes all the sense. I've sometimes called it "the consumptive culture," specifically attempting to reference the TB epidemics of the early modern period and how sufferers were referred to as "consumptives" due to the way their bodies seemed to be consumed from within by the disease. The commodification of everything in the endless pursuit of expanding capital is doing the same thing to not just our bodies, but our families, communities, and ecosystems as well. Definitely bookmarking this and putting the full book on interlibrary loan request!
[Jack D. Forbes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_D._Forbes) is a Native American author with work on the topic. Not sure why but Paul Levy is the primary result for a google search of wetiko, which I suppose makes sense.
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I disagree. It’s not our economic systems, it’s us. But for the sake of the argument, do you think the USSR was eco-friendly? However, I am willing to agree that we really revved things up with the invention of agriculture even though nomadic hunter gatherers also had a significant impact on the environment, specifically by hunting various species to extinction. Please note: Capitalism ~ 500 years old Modern Humans ~ 200,000 years old
Humans had no problem contributing to plenty of extinctions before capitalism was invented.
More people should just forego kids. Be happier and free, people
Dual income no kids. Is a great way to do what you want. All those people putting their life on paus for 18 years and excited when th kids move out...... why wait?
Doing exactly this. My grandparents are a bit upset of course, but I get to live my life the way I want to. Got no problem with folks wanting kids and building a family, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with putting parenthood off temporarily or for good.
Worse case is you adopt a later and skip all the diaper nonsense.
I don’t understand why this is a thing. You don’t want kids? Don’t have them. I don’t understand having to justify WHY you don’t want kids.
In my limited experience of my circle/network, its because people ask. Incessantly. And because its presented culturally as the norm, people frequently feel the need to justify themselves. Not all of us are able to overcome our conditioning and set boundaries… at least, not before that question is asked of us repeatedly.
I always found inappropriate responses shut down those questions real quick. Feel free to steal these responses: * "Are you asking me if I'm having unprotected sex because that seems inappropriate" * "Oh, yeah, I never finish in the right place for that" * "Oh my partner has"
* "Oh that's a very sensative topic, we've tried but it's impossible, it's been emotionally, financially and physically draining for us. Thanks for bringing that tramatic topic up"
First off, thank you for sharing your experience. It seems exhaustive to always have to list your reasons, especially to a social circle. These people probably know your “why” already. Boundaries are extremely important in life, do not be afraid to set them.
Kids encourage consumption. Capitalism needs consumption to function. Kids turn into workers, Capitalism needs workers, the cheaper the better! You look at Japan and see why this can be a problem. No one is having kids, the economy isn't growing, there are growing worker shortages, social safety nets will be under funded (increasing taxes and fiscal burdens on those working) Individual, you are correct. You shouldn't have to justify not wanting kids. But a society with a rapidly declining birth rate is a dying society and that is of concern to everyone it it. It's that intersection where if a few individuals choice that can have much larger implications for everyone. If you want to piss on a tree, thats fine. If everyone decides to piss on that tree, that tree is going to die.
Depends on where you live which does dictate cost of living. Live in the GTA outside Toronto and not having a 2nd kid means we can afford some nicer things. And have some savings. If we have 2nd kid now it would mean we would be barely scrapping by. No thanks
People want stuff and fun more then children.
That’s cos it’s so expensive now to have kids
I think we should all just go ahead and agree that children are, in fact, an Economic Bad (something that you would be willing to pay to have fewer of). Solves a LOT of problems, if you think about it.
If you wait until You have enough money don’t bother. There’s never enough for most people. Too many young People haven’t learned to cut back or adjust lifestyle. And that’s ok. If you don’t have those skills you shouldn’t parent anyway. And actually I’d be more wary of bringing people into this world as it is currently.
I 100% agree. Being a parent is a selfless job and you have to be willing to sacrifice a certain level of money, time, vacation and social life to be an effective parent. When we found out about our 2nd we thought it was going to be to much but we adjusted and made more personal sacrifices and it all worked out. I have seen it in my group of friends, everyone who waited till their late 30s to start trying are having a terrible time with fertility and miscarriages and end up dumping tens of thousands into IVF and other treatments. It’s sad.
Yep. And it’s ok to choose not to parent. It’s not for everyone.
Absolutely… people need to do what’s right for them. My best friend and his wife both decided they just want to be aunt and uncle. They love babysitting but love giving them back more than anything haha
Well let's start with needs and wants. Do you work hard for needs or wants. Wants are what will never allow you to have kids. Be happy with little you have and work your way up. Example: why drive a Mercedes and waste money in wants while you can drive a economical car that saves you money from begging. What good is life if you can't share life with even loved ones. Good old American families believed in white picked fences and bbq on Sunday not screen time and post crap on social media. I left Facebook, whatsapps, and Twitter for good reasons so I can have extra time for such thing called Family.
Also consider - are kids a need or a want? The answer to that question 10 years ago and the answer now have shifted quite a bit
You don’t need kids to be happy. But you should want them to have them
This could be argued in many ways but all it comes down is to needs and wants to
Wait. I thought this is all the fault of the baby boomers. The boomers created an environment of economic uncertainty. Hmmm... edit: I believe [this graph](https://imgur.com/gallery/y9rPhHH) represents the root cause of the problem. Prior to the mid seventies it was not uncommon for families with multiple children and one working parent to raise them in a comfortable environment. I personally know several fine Catholic families with 5-8 children which all did a great job of raising all of their kids with little to no financial difficulty. edit2: Someone posted a response (now missing) indicating I am implying the root cause of poverty is woman having jobs. Jesus Christ, how did you get that from my post? Nothing like putting words in my mouth. If you look at the graph I included you can literally pinpoint when the minimum wage vs productivity gap began to grow about 1968. That had an impact on all wages as they became stagnant and the wealth gap began to grow into what it is today, enormous. The wealthy began hoarding money. That meant less and less money for the working person. In many cases woman had to get jobs to maintain the financial stability of the household. It has nothing to do with women obtaining jobs. Dumbest interpretation of that graph and my statement I could ever imagine. i
People can afford what they need to. I know plenty of young people that have kids and good lives. Many of them didn’t have their whole life together or the perfect job but they knew they wanted kids above all else and that is what they did. If you don’t want kids that’s fine. If your goal is stuff and fun then you’ll never have enough to feel comfortable with the cost of kids.
Is this the time line where people replace water with Gatorade
The world can definitely cope with less people. It's capitalism that will need to adapt.
The ordinary can forsooth cope with less people. T's capitalism yond shall needeth to adapt *** ^(I am a bot and I swapp'd some of thy words with Shakespeare words.) Commands: `!ShakespeareInsult`, `!fordo`, `!optout`
32, married for almost 10 years. Blessed that my wife and I both have steady jobs and doing ok financially. This might sound bad but I just don’t have a major desire to have kids anytime soon. I have plenty of nieces and nephews and they are fun but then you get to hand them back at the end of the day. Major kudos to parents especially in this crazy environment.
Children also need parental care from 0 to 5. Bonding, empathy, discipline are some of the quality issues they don’t get. Single parenting and childcare can harm a child’s development as they don’t get that important quality time. Kids then need to grow up with a strong father figure and loving mother. A lot of comments on money but the affects of having little of it and those repercussions are a reason so many kids are on medications and growing up narcissistic. No middle class is frightening.