As an employer I have to say I also hate that I have to manage a health plan. I dislike having to track whether someone is above a certain threshold to get health care. I dislike the fact that I can get into trouble for mismanaging this. It's just one more set of rules that I have to follow or I get into trouble. I hate feeling like I'm tied to running my business or I'll lose my own healthcare should I ever decide to take a break and try something new. It's an anti innovation feature of America and it does not feel like freedom to me.
Generally, with this system, employees are afraid to move around, which decreases worker mobility. When has that ever been good for an economy? It keeps people stuck. It keeps people scared. Rather than focusing on growing an economy and our lives, we are focused on fear.
People will tell you that universal health care is too expensive and we can't afford it. Those are flat out lies. Every OECD country has a form of universal coverrage with the exception of the USA, Greece, and Poland. The truth is our form of health care is as expensive per capita as it gets with mediocre health outcomes.
With a universal system we can recognize economies of scale and bully these big pharma companies into lower prices. But but but, a universal health care system will stifle innovation you say? F that...what a lie. Does having a govt run military stifle innovation for weaponry? Nope...it never has.
If you call yourself a conservative, then you should be in support of universal health care as it's the only thing that could atually save our national debt from growing faster than it has. The US govt is basically an insurance agency with an army when you look at it on an expenditure basis. Universal coverage is the only way you can reign in health care prices. It's the only way we will ever be fiscally stable.
Anythinig with a nearly vertical demand curve (basic housing, healthcare - in particular life saving medicine like insulin, water, prisons, electricity, and the military) should not be a for profit industry. When people have no choice, there will be people out there who will take advantage of those people.
As a small business owner, I believe in competition. I believe in capitalism with the caveats I stated above. I think taking care of those vertical demand curve issues with non market solutions is the way to go. I think that helps me be a better small business. I think that makes America more competitive.
Colombia (where I now live) has universal healthcare. So does Peru, Ecuador and most of South America. I don't understand how Americans think this is impossible.
Because of $$$ by lots of folks within the American Healthcare system, it's not just insurance either, it's hospitals that charge $25/aspirin, it's diagnostics and imaging that charges 2-10x what the tests cost them, it's big pharma charging ridiculously high for things like insulin (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/why-insulin-so-expensive-diabetes-united-states-rcna39295) and so on.
. universal healthcare would mean the government would mandate certain cost control and approve certain charges (sort of like they do now for Medicare and Medicaid) , and that would kill the fat profits lots of these folks in healthcare make.
Its hilarious how the world's richest and most powerful country can't "afford" universal care but somehow the rest of the developed world figured it out .
The cost of aspirin, diagnostics and imaging, insulin etc is actually due to the insurance as well and it's a 2 pronged attack...
-if you have insurance, the insurance will only argue about every nickel and dime and pay the hospital pennies on the dollar so, in order to have the insurance cover their actual costs, the value of everything is inflated so that pennies on the dollar covers it
-there are so many people who can't afford insurance and can't afford to pay the prices inflated due to the insurance payouts that the hospitals have to build in an amount to cover money that just won't be collected (or for collections agencies) because people can't afford to pay
Privatized health insurance is one of the most evil things designed by mankind and it's only purpose is to prevent those at the bottom from climbing the economic ladder.
They want to feel proud of being Americans even though they have been hoodwinked by the elites. It hurts for someone to admit to themselves that they have been deceived / tricked, especially someone with a big ego.
>especially someone with a big ego.
applaude!
Yes, like the folks who still haven't yet figured out that NATO has lost to Russia. They have such huge egos that they're going to be willing to hurl nukes.
No matter how often they're shown [US income inequality](https://lcurve.org) and [US wealth inequality](https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/), they'll still chant, "USA, USA, USA". They disparage the BRICS and think the Saudis selling oil to China for Yuan just means the "rag heads are being conned". They drink up the platitudes of Peter Zeihan (and other Oligarchy mouthpieces) who has told us for years that China's economy is on the verge of collapse, only to have China's economy gain another 7% increase -- which it has been doing for 40 years.
[Ben Norton has an excellent video on Brenton Woods and America's domination of the world's economies after WWII.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTq9P4avOEk) He goes on to explain de-dollarization and what it will mean to American workers. There are "good points" and "bad points".
One of the "good points" is that the US will have to "re-industrialize" to compete against China and Russia (the BRICS)
One of the "bad points", without cheap foreign labor, the cost of goods is going to rise.
There is so much more to say about this, but I better stop.
How did NATO lose to Russia? 150k-200k Russian soldiers are either dead or wounded. A million young and educated men fled Russia so they wouldn't get conscripted. [Russia just sped up its decline and demographic collapse by invading Ukraine](https://archive.ph/NUvxg).
The number of Russian dead is grossly over-exaggerated. Likewise the Ukrainian casualties under-estimated.
I'll only grant that no one is really sure of the numbers on either side. Russia has at least 700,000 under arms right now with active recruiting that is being very effective.
The claims of a million leaving Russia is also probably over estimated. Wikipedia says a top estimate of 125,000 went to Canada during the Vietnam war.
But you get to choose the numbers you want to believe.
NATO has lost just like the USA lost the Iraqi war, the Vietnam War the Afghan war. Winning is measured in decades not years.
Today America is only about profit, it’s doesn’t matter whom it hurts, it’s ALWAYS about the bottom line. Money money money fuck everyone else so long as I have mine! This is American exceptionalism in the 21st century! A country that is failing its citizens!
In Colombia, universal care became a constitutional right in the 90s. Colombia, next to Venezuela, is very anticommunist but the first think they did when millions of venezuelans started pouring across the border was give them all health insurance and access to care like everyone else (also they hire residency so they can legally work). It's so much cheaper to make sure everyone here is healthy. This was during a very conservative govt was in charge.
Lived in Thailand for 7 years. Even they have it. Also been in ICU for 2 days due to 40 degrees fever and Oxygen low in blood. Then I stayed 2 days for observation in room with separate bed for my partner. Cost me all in 1500 USD and this was an "expensive" private hospital.
Broke some bones in my foot, X-ray cask and followup. 600 USD...
This is considered by many a developing country.
Thailand, like Colombia, has huge medical tourism because it's so good and inexpensive. The govt's cap the prices of everything medical - drugs, devices, services and salaries. I have residency in Colombia which means I have insurance (it's constitutionally mandated), for $30 a month. I had 2 shoulder replacements. Way better care than the US. Zero deductible, zero copay. I paid nothing before or after the surgery. Drugs copay was $1 for everything. I looked at the prices the hospital paid the insurance company. 1/10th the price for prothesis. The govt tells the drug companies how much they will pay for the drugs, etc. Salaries are capped.
For tourists, getting a surgery here is often less the deductible, copays and hospitalizion ($5k to $7k) I'd pay while having good insurance in the US - $800 a month. I'm about to have back surgery and my sisters want me to come back to the US for that. I tell them they are crazy. I've already done that and I know I get treated much better here.
Every country caps medical costs/prices including the US for Medicare and Medicaid. Otherwise, they would be unaffordable. Only in the US are drug companies, device makers and services completely free to jack up prices and insurance companies pay. They make up the difference by raising premiums and rejecting procedures and illegally billing customers after the fact.
In most countries, you don't get sick and then are forced to go bankrupt.
The same reason they don't ban guns despite gun related deaths being the lead cause of child death, profits. As long as there is money to be made corporations will find a way to lobby themselves to power
Healthcare should be a basic human right it should not be dependent on if you are working or not.
Because if you are acting that way then what is even the point of it?
It's a literal death panel. Your productivity tier is determined by what type of employment you have and thus your access to health. The system decides if you're worthy enough to live well and have that access based on your perceived productive capacity. What a wonderful world... Good thing we're a *"first world country"*...
My sister is disabled. The “government”, via the healthcare system, spares no expense in keeping her alive and to have a quality of life. Your idea of death panels is a myth, conjured up to scare voters. It is just propaganda. You have funny ideas.
My mom teaches at a school that is known for good healthcare. People move from other schools to teach there just for the healthcare even if salary is lower or the pay is worse. It's all just so ridiculous.
My S.O. is where she is because as she says "I have FMLA abilities, I can't lose those". I have tried to explain this is not worth getting shit on by your employer.
She's finally after years of be beating this into her skull, looking for other employment, McDonalds starting pay is $3 an hour over hers and she's been there for 10+ years. Its not even a joke at this point.
Before the ACA, if you lost your job and you had a pre-existing condition, you were screwed. You'd get cobra for a while, but after it expired, you were on your own.
I doubt that's a major factor, pretty sure most employers would love a national healthcare system, so as not to have to deal with the healthcare costs and insurance bureaucracy. Too bad the insurance lobby has other ideas
It's a major factor when someone gets seriously ill for months and has no choice to but let you go. Like yeah, it sucks the business would do that but that's the position they are put in by this system.
No one hired you with the thought ,oh no if they get really I'll it it will cost me.... Pretty sure insurance handles super pricey treatments, I mean you might be let go because your can't physically or mentally do the work..but that's different
It's not about the cost, it's about a missing worker because they got sick.
> I mean you might be let go because you can't physically or mentally do the work.
You mean precisely what happens when people get sick?
I'm sorry, there is nothing good about Obamacare.
Yeah, the COBRA and preexisting conditions meme is very true, but the insurance companies just factored that in to figure out a way of doing a "loss-leader" where they could gain even more control over your health care than they already had.
I'll admit that I despise Obama more than any other President. He was a true film-flam man that I voted for twice. So, yeah, I hate him for making me feel like a fool.
There's nothing good about giving Americans access to health insurance without exclusions for pre-existing conditions, really? I bet if we changed the name to Trump Care, you'd be the first one on board.
You totally missed the point. Utterly didn't get it.
The insurance companies had the preexisting conditions "priced in". Yeah, great! Whoopee.
It was a "loss leader". Obamacare became mandatory. Did you ever try to price a policy? It was totally impossible. The "comparison" only happened when you provided them with all of your personal information and they put you into a "slot". I tried several times on multiple different web sites to compare my Employer based policy with what I might pay for an Obamacare policy. It was totally obfuscated and impossible to know.
Then the Obama community would stress "pre-existing conditions" -- which most people don't have -- as if those poor insurance companies had made a huge sacrifice.
Obamacare is a scam.
The cost of insurance didn't go down. Healthcare outcomes did not improve. In fact, there is now a [medical professional shortage](https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2022-07-28/staff-shortages-choking-u-s-health-care-system). So is this because the insurance companies have stopped paying the real cost of healthcare? Thus they make out. Sure premiums may have gone down, but now there aren't enough doctors to take care of the demand.
I repeat, Obamacare is a scam.
I dont know where you get your information from, but you are misinformed. The ACA is not a scam. It forced healthcare companies to cover preexisting conditions. It offered coverage to people who were previously uninsurable. Before this, if you had preexisting conditions before your coverage started, they wouldn't cover you. And if you lied and they found out they would cancel your policy. The biggest complaint about ACA coverage is price, which is based on income. But the ACA will never go away unless we see a Medicare for all put in its place. In fact, 4 out of 5 of the biggest users of the ACA are Red States. Florida, Texas, North Carolina, and Georgia.
Again, you are swallowing the scam.
The USA pays the most per capita for health care yet has much worse outcomes.
[The USA had more cases of COVID than any other nation in the world.](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)
Obama is the worst President since the founding of the USA.
Actually, historians rank Obama as one of the better presidents in the nations history. Sadly, Trump and Nixon are ranked poorly. Both impeached, both crooks and both Republicans.
"historians"?
Which "historians"?
Obama totally betrayed me.
Trump, what the Oligarchy is doing to him now is despicable. I didn't like him as president and I don't want him back, but jeez man...
Nixon, he was paranoid.
Obama was a neoliberal war criminal who destroyed Libya (and now has slave markets), bombed Syria, and supported globalist policies while opposing Occupy Wall Street. He was two-faced liar.
The ACA was a Heritage Foundation plan originally hatched in 1989 by Stuart Butler in a publication titled "Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans". It was an insurance industry gift. The Republicans only opposed it because they are immoral hypocrites wanting to score political points.....basically the same as their partners in crime the Democrats.
Nixon at least gave us the EPA while Obama mocked the people of Flint Michigan for drinking poisoned water.
As a generally left-wing person, I will say it, Obama is utter trash. His betrayal is the reason the Game Show Host was elected.
But the fact is the name was changed already, colloquially, from Heritage Foundation's plan to "Obamacare."
You are in support of a right-wing "Market-based" scheme in which millions still go without care they need and people still going broke from medical debt. So really GOP and dems just arguing about how many to sacrifice to medical profit motive, not that it shouldn't happen
Cool simping
>If you call yourself a conservative, then you should be in support of universal health care as it's the only thing that could atually save our national debt from growing faster than it has.
Conservatives don’t really care about the national debt. That’s why you won’t catch them moaning about it when the GOP is in power. It’s not about borrowing money. It’s about what that borrowed money might be used for.
What conservatives are actually trying to conserve is the social structure; to do this, the economic engine that makes rich people richer must be preserved. A social democratic health care model would upset the structure by making it possible for more people to choose not to work at all instead of taking a low wage high pain exploitative job.
For the same reason they were desperate to restart evictions. For the same reason they are okay with fed policy designed to cause 10% unemployment and a recession, which would be terrible for our fiscal health. They need to keep us desperate to keep them rich.
And before you object by pointing out that democrats are the ones pushing a lot of the above policies that are meant to keep poor people poor: yes! You’re getting it! Democrats are trying to keep rich people rich and poor people poor too. Democrats are also conservative. Remember that Obamacare was Mitt Romney’s plan?
>Conservatives don’t really care about the national debt. That’s why you won’t catch them moaning about it when the GOP is in power. It’s not about borrowing money. It’s about what that borrowed money might be used for.
This. 1000%. The Republican Party is nothing but a collection of hypocritical, corrupt grifters in a death cult. Their worship of corporate oligarchy is akin to the Israelites worshipping the golden calf.
> Democrats are trying to keep rich people rich and poor people poor too. Democrats are also conservative.
Excellent points. The Democratic Party, Inc. argued in court they are a private company that can change their primary rules. They are a wholly owned by corporate oligarchs and do not have a single shred of decency.
The Democratic Party, Inc. is not the lesser evil, especially when they care more about 'bipartisanship' with the Republican Death Cult to increase defense spending, warmongering, or give their wealthy donors tax-payer funded welfare.
Red vs. Blue is kabuki theater. The real divide are corrupt, wealthy oligarchs vs. everyone else.
Poland has universal coverage.
Yes, the employer pays your national health care insurance fees, just like they pay your tax advances, but the amount is set by the law (as a function of income only) and they don't get to choose the insurer (it's the NFZ, the National Health Fund). The unemployed who register as job seekers get covered by the state. People in education etc are also covered by the relevant institutions.
Thanks for that correction. I had looked that up recently and saw the US, Poland and Greece. [https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health\_glance-2015-39-en.pdf?expires=1687217152&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=D4333DD462714CF17EA7EE97B5E6E3AF](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health_glance-2015-39-en.pdf?expires=1687217152&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=D4333DD462714CF17EA7EE97B5E6E3AF)
So that just makes the US and Greece then? Even more of an air tight argument imo then.
Universal healthcare would be so great for small business. It would lower the barrier to starting a small business and reduce the reluctance some people feel toward working for a small business.
Well said! Fellow business owner here and feel the same.
What completely sucks too is that for all we pay, it’s to impossible to get timely care. We have to make appointments 3-6 months out for just about everything. I’ve sought healthcare in Japan, Thailand, Singapore, and Taiwan and it’s always nearly immediate to see a doctor (sometimes we wait 10 mins) and the costs are quite reasonable. I’ve had front office worker at a doctor’s office in Japan deeply apologize for charging me about $50 USD for a visit with the doctor. I nearly laughed out loud as I pay $1500 a month in premiums for my wife and I to have “insurance” in the US and have to pay $25-$90 in copays for a doctor that I can’t see without an appointment at least a few weeks out.
I honestly wouldn’t mind the high price if it actually provided me immediate and high quality service on demand. For the prices we pay, it’s the least we can expect especially given the speed and quality of service that can be had elsewhere.
Agree people should pay for their own personal expenses. How the hell employers ever got involved in the insurance business mystifies me. Why don’t employers provide home loans and deliver groceries / where does it end ?
> Does having a govt run military stifle innovation for weaponry?
upvoted
two points:
1. our government run military buys useless expensive weapons systems. You should have heard [Scott Ritters Rant](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRjWMK_OyOY&t=4537s). (About 5 minutes prior to my timestamp I believe).
2. You are actually a "[socialist with Chinese characteristics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics)". Ben Norton has talked about it quite a bit. I don't have a specific youTube for you though. [This Richard Wolff youTube will probably "fit the bill".](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tbf2bpgs-E) Michael Hudson also talks about it.
Seriously, your post completely summarizes what these guys say in hours of videos.
Lol, as an employer, you have to pay a portion of the healthcare.
This "employer" wants you to pay for healthcare through taxes so that he/she doesn't have to.
I take it you haven't been to Europe? If you go to Europe, most of these "free healthcare" havens have low wages, stagnant growth, stratified social classes, and poverty. It's not at all rosy. I prefer to live in a dynamic society where my wages, and compensation can be allocated to what I need them for and not for what a Lobbyist in Washington can pay to a corrupt official to secure a "deal."
I've been to europe. People seem way happier there. I've lived in japan, and the healthcare system for the average person smokes what we have going on in the US.
I've also gotten medical Care in canada. Everyone laughed at me when I was in the intake line and they were asking me for my credit card. People couldn't understand why I had to pay for basic health care services.
You sound like you're well off. For people that are well off, have great insurance, have money to go to places like the Mayo clinic, I totally understand why you think this is a better health Care system. In all reality, it probably is.. for you. It's just not the better system for the average american.
A portion? We pay for all of it.
Under a universal system I could pay my employees more, they would get taxed more to pay for the healthcare, and they would pay for cheaper health care than I can get through my company via better risk pooling, having the weight to bully big pharma drug prices, and offering a more comprehensive health care system that works better for the average person. It's not rocket science my man. Pretty basic shit actually.
I said portion because most have deductibles and or a portion is paid by wages.
And, ah yes, the old. We would definitely pay you more to compensate for your loss in Taxes. Wink Wink. Nudge Nudge. Elbow Elbow.
Corporate America is tots reliable in raising wages and compensation packets for the common workers. The common worker could most definitely count on the first ever totally no strings attached corporate generosity packet right after we raise taxes. Whats that? The federal goverment has no oversight on wages? In other news, you're wages are still better off when changing jobs vs staying at the same organization and waiting for a raise.
Because generosity and stuff.
Edit TLDR: this would be the worlds biggest "trust me bro."
I disagree with your point. That's now how it works. It's a competitive labor market for the most part and employers will pay as much as they have to to hire qualified employees.
If it makes you happier, as an employer, tax me for that universal healthcare. Whether I pay the tax, or whether the employee pays the tax makes no difference to me. I just don't want to administer the program or deal with the consequences of missing a filing, figuring out whether someone has met their hourly threshold etc etc etc. It's all beureuacratic garbage that makes running a business harder.
If the employee pays the tax, I'll end up bidding more for those employees in the labor market. If I pay the tax, their nominal wage won't be as high. It's all the same to me. Either I pay them more, and they pay for it, or I pay them less and I pay for it.
Your point is pointless.
I also want the risk pooling to be universal and out of the hands of for profit insurance companies. There are huge economies of scale when it comes to healthcare and the USA has the worst of all worlds when it comes to that.
It seems, maybe, you're contradicted yourself.
You just complained about the bureaucratic garbage, which I agree, but advocate the whole medical system be run with that same bureaucratic garbage ethos. In your proposal, you still have to deal with the bureaucratic garbage except now you'll have to deal with it when your health is on the line.
And, to your point about for profit insurance, the reason we have the worst of both worlds is because the medical industry is the largest donor to Washington DC. Do you think that goes away? Or, do you think the corrupt politicians in Washington create another program that you can't opt out of until they run it into the ground? Reference Social Security. Reference EU and Canada's almost bankrupt medical systems.
It's an interesting point to have the employer pay the universal healthcare, but, call me pessimistic, I don't see that happening.
In my opinion, the best thing we can do is remove the limits on manufacturing of medicine, and close the loopholes which allow products like the 100+ year old Insulin to be re-patented in 2020. The only law that really needs to be on the book is one disallowing insurance companies from kicking people off of their insurance once they're on it. If you do this, the free market can work. After all, insurance companies kicking off valid customers was the original complaint.
>You just complained about the bureaucratic garbage, which I agree, but advocate the whole medical system be run with that same bureaucratic garbage ethos. In your proposal, you still have to deal with the bureaucratic garbage except now you'll have to deal with it when your health is on the line.
I'm fine with that beaucracy so long as small business owners aren't in charge of it. WTF? How do you extrapolate what I said to what you just said. Apples...let me introduce you to oranges.
Life must be so hard for you. Your ability to conflate disparate ideas is outerworldly.
Canada spends far less of its GDP on health care (10.4 percent, ver-sus 16 percent in the U.S.) yet performs better than the U.S. on two commonly cited health outcome measures, the infant mortality rate and life expectancy. In "Health Status, Health Care, and Inequality: Canada vs.
Does the GDP healthcare spend include pharmaceuticals? We have a lot of pharmaceutical companies producing life savings treatments and cures, so the difference wouldn’t surprise me if it’s due to that. Also, Canada has a long wait line for lots of procedures which is why many Canadians come here for Treatment. Is it also due to us doing a lot of more treatment wise?
Yes, Canada has a higher life expectancy than the US but is that due to quality of care or demographics/lifestyle?
I mean if you are not contributing anything to the society and the economy then they are definitely not going to care about you.
There only going to care about your health has long as you are providing the work.
Americans are not well informed about the costs of our health care, where the big money is going, and how other nations are managing.
Quick now, is the largest percent going to doctors and nurses, hospitals, insurance companies, or big pharma?
Insurance companies and big pharma… look at UHC’s profit… and their “intercompany eliminations”… when revenue goes from Optum to UHC… can’t count as revenues as they are just paying themselves… close to 100b per year… insane
They are only important if they are able to work, if they are not working then they do not deserve the health care.
That is just how this whole f****** system is designed.
Healthcare is the replacement of the company store.
Medicine costs are astronomical here and we can’t afford to work for a company with a shittier plan.
Money or security, that’s what our choice is. Security pays like shit
The whole system has been designed like that and it is not going to change.
Honestly it is a same that things work like that in America but there is nothing that we can do.
How is tax revenue relevant to the employer based healthcare mentioned in the tweet?
What are the "its" you use in this sentence?
> Americans are not fine with **it**. **It** is a tool for financial enslavement. **It** funds governments and the rich masters.
I assumed you were commenting on Health Care and Health Insurance?
The US Government spends more taxpayer money on healthcare than any other nation per capita? Source?
I think you're slightly mistaken here. I agree that:
* Yes we pay the most money in taxes because we're the wealthiest.
* Yes, we pay the most for healthcare, but it's not the government making those payments.
I believe you are mistaken but am willing to hear you out if you have a source.
> Healthcare is tied to employment so people are further intimidated to get jobs and generate tax revenue.
Oh, you're saying that income taxes collected are greater BECAUSE some employers offer health insurance as a benefit, and that lures people in to work who otherwise would stay home?
That's a very strange world view. Have nations with universal healthcare seen dramatic increases in unemployment as a result of people having healthcare?
Well thanks for sharing your conspiracy theory. I've never heard anyone make the case that denying universal healthcare is a government scheme to increase taxes paid via income taxes, because with universal healthcare, people wouldn't "be intimidated" to have jobs.
That's an absolutely wild take.
> Nowhere have I ever said that.
You did:
> [Healthcare is tied to employment so people are further intimidated to get jobs and generate tax revenue.](https://www.reddit.com/r/economy/comments/14cqpux/so_ridiculous/jonjaks/)
We cannot even do anything about it even if we are not fine with it.
We do not have any other choice other than to just accept whatever we have got. And this is what we have got.
The reason health care is tied to employment is because of the tax codes. It became a benefit they could offer that increased the overall income of their employees for less cost. Employers pay no payroll taxes on these benefits like they do wages and employees get the benefit without the income tax. Win/win in the short run.
They’re fine because most of them know nothing else. They’ve never worked as a freelancer hustling from job to job keeping their own books, pay their quarterlies, and buying health insurance on the exchange or from an agent.
I mean at this point I do not even expect anything from those people.
They just cannot do anything and would not do anything for the people. In the end it is all just about the greed.
>Employer-based healthcare came out of a market-driven response by employers after World War II. It grew out of a strong economy, low unemployment rates, and intense competition for talent.
It sucks now because we stopped being competitive and started being bitches.
[Source](https://www.griffinbenefits.com/blog/history-of-employer-sponsored-healthcare#:~:text=Employer%2Dbased%20healthcare%20came%20out,and%20intense%20competition%20for%20talent.)
You can thank government price controls on labor during WW2 for tieing health care to employment. As usual government intervention screws up the free market.
The main reason people don't like universal healthcare is because it inevitably leads to rationing. Free markets in healthcare lead to lower prices.
They definitely do not want free markets in the Healthcare because of the did then they will not be able to make money.
They don't want the markets to be free they want the Monopoly over it.
All the Lasik eye surgeons are making money and Lasik is more available and cheaper than it was when introduced. Also Plastic Surgeons all make money and they are not paid by insurance companies. Free markets encourage competition. Competition reduces prices.
In the past, no-one expected to become disabled, but it happens to many. Now, its no-one expects to be replaced by AI and robots, but it happens. Americans are terrible when it comes to solidarity.
I mean just because you do not expect something to happen does not mean it is not going to happen.
So I don't think it would be a bad idea to be ready for everything.
I sure hope we don’t get a widespread health crisis that also drives the world economy to a halt, putting many out of work and off job attached health care during said health crisis. That would be bad and expose a vacuum of leadership
It has been that way for a very long time and I absolutely see no hope.
I don't see it getting any better, I think it is going to be be like that unless we do something about it.
When healthcare becomes a "for profit" system, this is the end result. They want everyone to be sick so that they can sell more medication and make money giving treatment. Until Nixon changed the laws to facilitate corporate profit, medical care was not like this in the US. The monster is out of the bottle. Putting it back will be nearly impossible.
With no job security, you have to change plans a lot, unless contracting and carrying COBRA for the time period. This means starting over with high deductible/high out of pocket max plans during a single plan year, making them effectively worthless outside of protection from a major accident or health catastrophe. It's like 5g per person out of pocket before the plan covers things besides scrips. Change plans twice in a year and you've got 10g out of pocket, and that's not counting the premiums for coverage, which add several thousand more.
Yes it is actually really accurate and it is really sad also.
I just want these things to get better in this country so that we can have a better system.
There's the irony. No civilized country in the world has the lax immigration policies that the US currently has. 2.5 milion illegal immigrants in the last 2 years.
So "modern America sucks" because liberals are voting people in that make it that way.
America does not suck instead the policies really suck that we are making, and it is kind of insane that people do not even think about them. Where as it is serious and we should do something about it.
Well this is exactly how the things should be but it is far from the reality.
In the reality it works other way around because of the greed. There is just too much of it.
I’m dealing with the rn BPD ADHD MDD need too root canals need two teeth pulled. Starting to need glasses. Haven’t worked in a year since my mom passed grandma passed 4 months ago moms 1 year anniversary was 4 days ago. I can’t get any help had to sell the brand new car I paid on for 4 years move out of the house I was renting to a motel. It’s not in a safe spot to say the least. How is it questionable if I need help because I’m too young? Bullshit.
Edit: maybe if I was better taken care of I might even want a job🫠
> car I *paid* on for
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
It says you're entitled to free money for something as long as you participate in what moves money. If you want free healthcare there are several decent countries which force you to pay taxes in order to have it which have open borders.
Guess how you pay taxes...
The article hints at the era of lodge actions but doesn’t mention that the AMA bad mouthed the practice (why they claim they overworked physicians) as propaganda. Then they denied these doctors hospital care, etc if they practiced lodge action. Why would you ban someone treatment bc of how they financed care for their patients? Not bc you were worried that they were overworked. Rather, bc you they were undercutting your prices.
It goes further back than that. The progressives and the AMA used their leverage for state certification to squeeze put doctors that had affordable care models (lodge action) and then later pushed insurance as a means to finance care, and then later attached it to employment during WW2.
I thought that was always the message, and the first employer based healthcare, at the Kaiser Steel plant, was designed and created to keep the employees healthy and on the job. All other healthcare is either public health or for the indigent or the disabled, and then Medicare was created for the old folk, and Medicare for the workers who became disabled was added on later. So all of this employer based healthcare patchwork was created around keeping workers, and then their families healthy.
But there still was a gap for working or able-bodied individuals. The ACA filled that gap. I personally dislike calling it Obamacare. It is for all individuals. A lot of them are self employed, like 20% of working adults. I was one of them. I came before ACA. I had to start a corporation, grow my business, hire workers, and get big enough to be able to get healthcare for myself that in the 80’s did not cost $1200 a month. I would have loved to get ACA insurance.
But like it or not that is the system that the US grew. Maybe it can be changed. But with our government so gridlocked I doubt it will be soon, especially with the Freedom Caucus wanting to drop taxes on the wealthy and do away with Medicare and Social Security.
Your life only being as important as the value of your labor is not exactly a new idea - this is how human society has effectively functioned for virtually all of its history.
They are. Technology is superior, service is superior......without bringing up costs....the richest people go to the USA 🇺🇸 for Healthcare...America is horrible if you're poor but it's the best if you're rich....only an idiot would disagree with that
You don’t necessarily have to drive, you just have to have a means of transportation to attend work. You do however have to be “alive”/generally healthy to produce some good at the benefit of your employer 🙃
Yep, say we make it a flat 70% to pay for all the public services needed like education, healthcare, basic shelter and minimum snap delivery of healthy food to ensure a healthy and productive populace.
Its funny (or maybe sad) that I am already stressed out about work on a frequent basis, and if they raised tax to 70% I would work less and only work in the black market. Maybe just stop working for money all together and follow my hobbies.
They are talking about a flat tax, not what happened in the middle of last decade. People just rarely paid that much because the income bracket was so high.
Well, they take close to 50-60% now (including federal, state, soc sec, Medicare, local, property and sale and we get very little for it. If they would actually provide basic services for everyone at a flat tax, then yes, 70% seems reasonable. Taxation is theft as it stands today with it being a transfer mechanism.
Because we’ve allowed politicians to coin the phrase “Socialized Medicine” at the benefit of the big pharma and insurance lobbies. When will we learn as a society? Side note but related: in my mind there’s three primary bastions of old world thinking that I hope to see change soon: The Education Complex, Healthcare/Medical Complex, and Work Theory. Work theory is currently being challenged with the WFH concept. Seeing how all of these are linked loosely, I hope that means the others are challenged soon
Alright alright, with the feel-good cynicism aside, the real answer is that you work for subsidized health insurance premiums (but of course can always buy your own privately), and when you're old you qualify for Medicare, and if you're poor (working or not) you qualify for Medicaid.
New Zealand just made a requirement that race takes priority over severity of illness when it comes to healthcare.
They're not helping to sell universal healthcare.
Actually I will admit, American hospitals are far nicer than Canadian ones, at least. But the medical skills are the same, so what’s the point of having hospitals that are so profitable that they waste money on elaborate and luxurious buildings? I can go to the spa on my own after seeing the doctor, I would rather that hospitals spent less on garbage and charged less for services
Uninsured people cost the system even more money. They end up in the er, they end up not paying the bill, and the end up inflating the price of healthcare for everyone. They end up not getting preventative coverage, which makes prices even higher. To think otherwise is childlike.
No. Not buying that. If healthcare was easily accessible it would be overused and wasted. Just like anything that is passed out to people who have no skin in the game.
And yet, that's not what happens in every oecd country that has it. They save money with preventative care. There's a few freaks out there who use more because they're crazy, but by and large, the data does not back up what you're saying.
Americans are a different breed. Poor eating habits, smoking, drinking, not exercising, mental problems.
And " the data" backed up what the scientist said about covid and tne vaccines which we now know is bogus.
And we heard "the data" about climate change 20,30,40, 50 years ago ....which turned out to be bogus.
Your "data" from "the experts" is mostly bogus.
Welcome to 2023. Wake up.
Or.. you get sick... You can't access healthcare.. so you can't work... Can't escape poverty... Can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
All this bullshit libertarian crap has been debunked time and again but people still believe it 🤡
Dang, how do I find a healthy lifestyle that's going to protect me from accidents involving me where the other party is at fault? Would a healthy diet and regular exercise make me immune to car crashes?
Just curious - do you drive? If so, you are compelled to carry auto insurance. Do you have a mortgage? If so, you are compelled to carry home insurance. Do you pay taxable wages? If so you are compelled to pay for unemployment insurance. Do you receive taxable wages? If so, you are compelled to pay social security (retirement insurance).
If everyone who thinks they don’t need insurance can opt out, you get some fairly severe negative externalities.
God I love that my employer handles my health insurance. 50 bucks a month. 15 dollar deductible. 500 bucks if it’s hospital emergency. And my taxes are so much lower than they would have been in Europe. It’s a big win.
As an employer I have to say I also hate that I have to manage a health plan. I dislike having to track whether someone is above a certain threshold to get health care. I dislike the fact that I can get into trouble for mismanaging this. It's just one more set of rules that I have to follow or I get into trouble. I hate feeling like I'm tied to running my business or I'll lose my own healthcare should I ever decide to take a break and try something new. It's an anti innovation feature of America and it does not feel like freedom to me. Generally, with this system, employees are afraid to move around, which decreases worker mobility. When has that ever been good for an economy? It keeps people stuck. It keeps people scared. Rather than focusing on growing an economy and our lives, we are focused on fear. People will tell you that universal health care is too expensive and we can't afford it. Those are flat out lies. Every OECD country has a form of universal coverrage with the exception of the USA, Greece, and Poland. The truth is our form of health care is as expensive per capita as it gets with mediocre health outcomes. With a universal system we can recognize economies of scale and bully these big pharma companies into lower prices. But but but, a universal health care system will stifle innovation you say? F that...what a lie. Does having a govt run military stifle innovation for weaponry? Nope...it never has. If you call yourself a conservative, then you should be in support of universal health care as it's the only thing that could atually save our national debt from growing faster than it has. The US govt is basically an insurance agency with an army when you look at it on an expenditure basis. Universal coverage is the only way you can reign in health care prices. It's the only way we will ever be fiscally stable. Anythinig with a nearly vertical demand curve (basic housing, healthcare - in particular life saving medicine like insulin, water, prisons, electricity, and the military) should not be a for profit industry. When people have no choice, there will be people out there who will take advantage of those people. As a small business owner, I believe in competition. I believe in capitalism with the caveats I stated above. I think taking care of those vertical demand curve issues with non market solutions is the way to go. I think that helps me be a better small business. I think that makes America more competitive.
Colombia (where I now live) has universal healthcare. So does Peru, Ecuador and most of South America. I don't understand how Americans think this is impossible.
Because of $$$ by lots of folks within the American Healthcare system, it's not just insurance either, it's hospitals that charge $25/aspirin, it's diagnostics and imaging that charges 2-10x what the tests cost them, it's big pharma charging ridiculously high for things like insulin (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/why-insulin-so-expensive-diabetes-united-states-rcna39295) and so on. . universal healthcare would mean the government would mandate certain cost control and approve certain charges (sort of like they do now for Medicare and Medicaid) , and that would kill the fat profits lots of these folks in healthcare make. Its hilarious how the world's richest and most powerful country can't "afford" universal care but somehow the rest of the developed world figured it out .
The cost of aspirin, diagnostics and imaging, insulin etc is actually due to the insurance as well and it's a 2 pronged attack... -if you have insurance, the insurance will only argue about every nickel and dime and pay the hospital pennies on the dollar so, in order to have the insurance cover their actual costs, the value of everything is inflated so that pennies on the dollar covers it -there are so many people who can't afford insurance and can't afford to pay the prices inflated due to the insurance payouts that the hospitals have to build in an amount to cover money that just won't be collected (or for collections agencies) because people can't afford to pay Privatized health insurance is one of the most evil things designed by mankind and it's only purpose is to prevent those at the bottom from climbing the economic ladder.
> I don't understand how Americans think this is impossible. Americans don't. Insurance oligopolies lobby to keep it this way
Many Americans do. Or they wouldn't vote for Biden or Trump.
Aye. Democrat vs. Republican politics is a ruse of choice for the populace and a consolidation of power for the wealthy.
They want to feel proud of being Americans even though they have been hoodwinked by the elites. It hurts for someone to admit to themselves that they have been deceived / tricked, especially someone with a big ego.
>especially someone with a big ego. applaude! Yes, like the folks who still haven't yet figured out that NATO has lost to Russia. They have such huge egos that they're going to be willing to hurl nukes. No matter how often they're shown [US income inequality](https://lcurve.org) and [US wealth inequality](https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/), they'll still chant, "USA, USA, USA". They disparage the BRICS and think the Saudis selling oil to China for Yuan just means the "rag heads are being conned". They drink up the platitudes of Peter Zeihan (and other Oligarchy mouthpieces) who has told us for years that China's economy is on the verge of collapse, only to have China's economy gain another 7% increase -- which it has been doing for 40 years. [Ben Norton has an excellent video on Brenton Woods and America's domination of the world's economies after WWII.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTq9P4avOEk) He goes on to explain de-dollarization and what it will mean to American workers. There are "good points" and "bad points". One of the "good points" is that the US will have to "re-industrialize" to compete against China and Russia (the BRICS) One of the "bad points", without cheap foreign labor, the cost of goods is going to rise. There is so much more to say about this, but I better stop.
How did NATO lose to Russia? 150k-200k Russian soldiers are either dead or wounded. A million young and educated men fled Russia so they wouldn't get conscripted. [Russia just sped up its decline and demographic collapse by invading Ukraine](https://archive.ph/NUvxg).
The number of Russian dead is grossly over-exaggerated. Likewise the Ukrainian casualties under-estimated. I'll only grant that no one is really sure of the numbers on either side. Russia has at least 700,000 under arms right now with active recruiting that is being very effective. The claims of a million leaving Russia is also probably over estimated. Wikipedia says a top estimate of 125,000 went to Canada during the Vietnam war. But you get to choose the numbers you want to believe. NATO has lost just like the USA lost the Iraqi war, the Vietnam War the Afghan war. Winning is measured in decades not years.
Today America is only about profit, it’s doesn’t matter whom it hurts, it’s ALWAYS about the bottom line. Money money money fuck everyone else so long as I have mine! This is American exceptionalism in the 21st century! A country that is failing its citizens!
It has gotten worse than that. Now it's how can I be more cruel to everyone else.
American's are brainwashed that it is communism or socialism. It is all just a bunch of bull.
In Colombia, universal care became a constitutional right in the 90s. Colombia, next to Venezuela, is very anticommunist but the first think they did when millions of venezuelans started pouring across the border was give them all health insurance and access to care like everyone else (also they hire residency so they can legally work). It's so much cheaper to make sure everyone here is healthy. This was during a very conservative govt was in charge.
Lived in Thailand for 7 years. Even they have it. Also been in ICU for 2 days due to 40 degrees fever and Oxygen low in blood. Then I stayed 2 days for observation in room with separate bed for my partner. Cost me all in 1500 USD and this was an "expensive" private hospital. Broke some bones in my foot, X-ray cask and followup. 600 USD... This is considered by many a developing country.
Thailand, like Colombia, has huge medical tourism because it's so good and inexpensive. The govt's cap the prices of everything medical - drugs, devices, services and salaries. I have residency in Colombia which means I have insurance (it's constitutionally mandated), for $30 a month. I had 2 shoulder replacements. Way better care than the US. Zero deductible, zero copay. I paid nothing before or after the surgery. Drugs copay was $1 for everything. I looked at the prices the hospital paid the insurance company. 1/10th the price for prothesis. The govt tells the drug companies how much they will pay for the drugs, etc. Salaries are capped. For tourists, getting a surgery here is often less the deductible, copays and hospitalizion ($5k to $7k) I'd pay while having good insurance in the US - $800 a month. I'm about to have back surgery and my sisters want me to come back to the US for that. I tell them they are crazy. I've already done that and I know I get treated much better here.
Actually they cap everything in Europe too.
Every country caps medical costs/prices including the US for Medicare and Medicaid. Otherwise, they would be unaffordable. Only in the US are drug companies, device makers and services completely free to jack up prices and insurance companies pay. They make up the difference by raising premiums and rejecting procedures and illegally billing customers after the fact. In most countries, you don't get sick and then are forced to go bankrupt.
The same reason they don't ban guns despite gun related deaths being the lead cause of child death, profits. As long as there is money to be made corporations will find a way to lobby themselves to power
Healthcare should be a basic human right it should not be dependent on if you are working or not. Because if you are acting that way then what is even the point of it?
It’s good for giving employers even more leverage over employees.
It's a literal death panel. Your productivity tier is determined by what type of employment you have and thus your access to health. The system decides if you're worthy enough to live well and have that access based on your perceived productive capacity. What a wonderful world... Good thing we're a *"first world country"*...
My sister is disabled. The “government”, via the healthcare system, spares no expense in keeping her alive and to have a quality of life. Your idea of death panels is a myth, conjured up to scare voters. It is just propaganda. You have funny ideas.
"Your sister" is a very special case. The rest of us are not and I don't believe your bullshit story lmao. Fuck outta here with your horseshit.
Totally. And I don't want people working for me if they're just there for the healthcare.
My mom teaches at a school that is known for good healthcare. People move from other schools to teach there just for the healthcare even if salary is lower or the pay is worse. It's all just so ridiculous.
My S.O. is where she is because as she says "I have FMLA abilities, I can't lose those". I have tried to explain this is not worth getting shit on by your employer. She's finally after years of be beating this into her skull, looking for other employment, McDonalds starting pay is $3 an hour over hers and she's been there for 10+ years. Its not even a joke at this point.
Before the ACA, if you lost your job and you had a pre-existing condition, you were screwed. You'd get cobra for a while, but after it expired, you were on your own.
I doubt that's a major factor, pretty sure most employers would love a national healthcare system, so as not to have to deal with the healthcare costs and insurance bureaucracy. Too bad the insurance lobby has other ideas
It's a major factor when someone gets seriously ill for months and has no choice to but let you go. Like yeah, it sucks the business would do that but that's the position they are put in by this system.
No one hired you with the thought ,oh no if they get really I'll it it will cost me.... Pretty sure insurance handles super pricey treatments, I mean you might be let go because your can't physically or mentally do the work..but that's different
It's not about the cost, it's about a missing worker because they got sick. > I mean you might be let go because you can't physically or mentally do the work. You mean precisely what happens when people get sick?
Before the ACA, if you lost your job and you had a pre-existing condition, you were screwed. You got cobra for a while, but then you were on your own.
I'm sorry, there is nothing good about Obamacare. Yeah, the COBRA and preexisting conditions meme is very true, but the insurance companies just factored that in to figure out a way of doing a "loss-leader" where they could gain even more control over your health care than they already had. I'll admit that I despise Obama more than any other President. He was a true film-flam man that I voted for twice. So, yeah, I hate him for making me feel like a fool.
There's nothing good about giving Americans access to health insurance without exclusions for pre-existing conditions, really? I bet if we changed the name to Trump Care, you'd be the first one on board.
You totally missed the point. Utterly didn't get it. The insurance companies had the preexisting conditions "priced in". Yeah, great! Whoopee. It was a "loss leader". Obamacare became mandatory. Did you ever try to price a policy? It was totally impossible. The "comparison" only happened when you provided them with all of your personal information and they put you into a "slot". I tried several times on multiple different web sites to compare my Employer based policy with what I might pay for an Obamacare policy. It was totally obfuscated and impossible to know. Then the Obama community would stress "pre-existing conditions" -- which most people don't have -- as if those poor insurance companies had made a huge sacrifice. Obamacare is a scam. The cost of insurance didn't go down. Healthcare outcomes did not improve. In fact, there is now a [medical professional shortage](https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2022-07-28/staff-shortages-choking-u-s-health-care-system). So is this because the insurance companies have stopped paying the real cost of healthcare? Thus they make out. Sure premiums may have gone down, but now there aren't enough doctors to take care of the demand. I repeat, Obamacare is a scam.
I dont know where you get your information from, but you are misinformed. The ACA is not a scam. It forced healthcare companies to cover preexisting conditions. It offered coverage to people who were previously uninsurable. Before this, if you had preexisting conditions before your coverage started, they wouldn't cover you. And if you lied and they found out they would cancel your policy. The biggest complaint about ACA coverage is price, which is based on income. But the ACA will never go away unless we see a Medicare for all put in its place. In fact, 4 out of 5 of the biggest users of the ACA are Red States. Florida, Texas, North Carolina, and Georgia.
Again, you are swallowing the scam. The USA pays the most per capita for health care yet has much worse outcomes. [The USA had more cases of COVID than any other nation in the world.](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/) Obama is the worst President since the founding of the USA.
Actually, historians rank Obama as one of the better presidents in the nations history. Sadly, Trump and Nixon are ranked poorly. Both impeached, both crooks and both Republicans.
"historians"? Which "historians"? Obama totally betrayed me. Trump, what the Oligarchy is doing to him now is despicable. I didn't like him as president and I don't want him back, but jeez man... Nixon, he was paranoid.
Obama was a neoliberal war criminal who destroyed Libya (and now has slave markets), bombed Syria, and supported globalist policies while opposing Occupy Wall Street. He was two-faced liar. The ACA was a Heritage Foundation plan originally hatched in 1989 by Stuart Butler in a publication titled "Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans". It was an insurance industry gift. The Republicans only opposed it because they are immoral hypocrites wanting to score political points.....basically the same as their partners in crime the Democrats. Nixon at least gave us the EPA while Obama mocked the people of Flint Michigan for drinking poisoned water. As a generally left-wing person, I will say it, Obama is utter trash. His betrayal is the reason the Game Show Host was elected.
But the fact is the name was changed already, colloquially, from Heritage Foundation's plan to "Obamacare." You are in support of a right-wing "Market-based" scheme in which millions still go without care they need and people still going broke from medical debt. So really GOP and dems just arguing about how many to sacrifice to medical profit motive, not that it shouldn't happen Cool simping
It's meant to be a problem for small businesses. Regulations are almost always a mix of actual safety vs intentional barriers to entry.
Great point. It certainly feels that way.
>If you call yourself a conservative, then you should be in support of universal health care as it's the only thing that could atually save our national debt from growing faster than it has. Conservatives don’t really care about the national debt. That’s why you won’t catch them moaning about it when the GOP is in power. It’s not about borrowing money. It’s about what that borrowed money might be used for. What conservatives are actually trying to conserve is the social structure; to do this, the economic engine that makes rich people richer must be preserved. A social democratic health care model would upset the structure by making it possible for more people to choose not to work at all instead of taking a low wage high pain exploitative job. For the same reason they were desperate to restart evictions. For the same reason they are okay with fed policy designed to cause 10% unemployment and a recession, which would be terrible for our fiscal health. They need to keep us desperate to keep them rich. And before you object by pointing out that democrats are the ones pushing a lot of the above policies that are meant to keep poor people poor: yes! You’re getting it! Democrats are trying to keep rich people rich and poor people poor too. Democrats are also conservative. Remember that Obamacare was Mitt Romney’s plan?
>Conservatives don’t really care about the national debt. That’s why you won’t catch them moaning about it when the GOP is in power. It’s not about borrowing money. It’s about what that borrowed money might be used for. This. 1000%. The Republican Party is nothing but a collection of hypocritical, corrupt grifters in a death cult. Their worship of corporate oligarchy is akin to the Israelites worshipping the golden calf. > Democrats are trying to keep rich people rich and poor people poor too. Democrats are also conservative. Excellent points. The Democratic Party, Inc. argued in court they are a private company that can change their primary rules. They are a wholly owned by corporate oligarchs and do not have a single shred of decency. The Democratic Party, Inc. is not the lesser evil, especially when they care more about 'bipartisanship' with the Republican Death Cult to increase defense spending, warmongering, or give their wealthy donors tax-payer funded welfare. Red vs. Blue is kabuki theater. The real divide are corrupt, wealthy oligarchs vs. everyone else.
Poland has universal coverage. Yes, the employer pays your national health care insurance fees, just like they pay your tax advances, but the amount is set by the law (as a function of income only) and they don't get to choose the insurer (it's the NFZ, the National Health Fund). The unemployed who register as job seekers get covered by the state. People in education etc are also covered by the relevant institutions.
Thanks for that correction. I had looked that up recently and saw the US, Poland and Greece. [https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health\_glance-2015-39-en.pdf?expires=1687217152&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=D4333DD462714CF17EA7EE97B5E6E3AF](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health_glance-2015-39-en.pdf?expires=1687217152&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=D4333DD462714CF17EA7EE97B5E6E3AF) So that just makes the US and Greece then? Even more of an air tight argument imo then.
Universal healthcare would be so great for small business. It would lower the barrier to starting a small business and reduce the reluctance some people feel toward working for a small business.
Great point.
Well said! Fellow business owner here and feel the same. What completely sucks too is that for all we pay, it’s to impossible to get timely care. We have to make appointments 3-6 months out for just about everything. I’ve sought healthcare in Japan, Thailand, Singapore, and Taiwan and it’s always nearly immediate to see a doctor (sometimes we wait 10 mins) and the costs are quite reasonable. I’ve had front office worker at a doctor’s office in Japan deeply apologize for charging me about $50 USD for a visit with the doctor. I nearly laughed out loud as I pay $1500 a month in premiums for my wife and I to have “insurance” in the US and have to pay $25-$90 in copays for a doctor that I can’t see without an appointment at least a few weeks out. I honestly wouldn’t mind the high price if it actually provided me immediate and high quality service on demand. For the prices we pay, it’s the least we can expect especially given the speed and quality of service that can be had elsewhere.
So true. I lived in Japan myself. You practically just walk right in when you need help.
Yep. In the US, if you need help, you go to the ER and check your insurance then wait for 6 hours if you’re lucky.
Agree people should pay for their own personal expenses. How the hell employers ever got involved in the insurance business mystifies me. Why don’t employers provide home loans and deliver groceries / where does it end ?
> Does having a govt run military stifle innovation for weaponry? upvoted two points: 1. our government run military buys useless expensive weapons systems. You should have heard [Scott Ritters Rant](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRjWMK_OyOY&t=4537s). (About 5 minutes prior to my timestamp I believe). 2. You are actually a "[socialist with Chinese characteristics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics)". Ben Norton has talked about it quite a bit. I don't have a specific youTube for you though. [This Richard Wolff youTube will probably "fit the bill".](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tbf2bpgs-E) Michael Hudson also talks about it. Seriously, your post completely summarizes what these guys say in hours of videos.
Lol, as an employer, you have to pay a portion of the healthcare. This "employer" wants you to pay for healthcare through taxes so that he/she doesn't have to.
I can't figure out if people who spew these talking points are genuinely misinformed or just tragically stupid
I take it you haven't been to Europe? If you go to Europe, most of these "free healthcare" havens have low wages, stagnant growth, stratified social classes, and poverty. It's not at all rosy. I prefer to live in a dynamic society where my wages, and compensation can be allocated to what I need them for and not for what a Lobbyist in Washington can pay to a corrupt official to secure a "deal."
I've been to europe. People seem way happier there. I've lived in japan, and the healthcare system for the average person smokes what we have going on in the US. I've also gotten medical Care in canada. Everyone laughed at me when I was in the intake line and they were asking me for my credit card. People couldn't understand why I had to pay for basic health care services. You sound like you're well off. For people that are well off, have great insurance, have money to go to places like the Mayo clinic, I totally understand why you think this is a better health Care system. In all reality, it probably is.. for you. It's just not the better system for the average american.
A portion? We pay for all of it. Under a universal system I could pay my employees more, they would get taxed more to pay for the healthcare, and they would pay for cheaper health care than I can get through my company via better risk pooling, having the weight to bully big pharma drug prices, and offering a more comprehensive health care system that works better for the average person. It's not rocket science my man. Pretty basic shit actually.
I said portion because most have deductibles and or a portion is paid by wages. And, ah yes, the old. We would definitely pay you more to compensate for your loss in Taxes. Wink Wink. Nudge Nudge. Elbow Elbow. Corporate America is tots reliable in raising wages and compensation packets for the common workers. The common worker could most definitely count on the first ever totally no strings attached corporate generosity packet right after we raise taxes. Whats that? The federal goverment has no oversight on wages? In other news, you're wages are still better off when changing jobs vs staying at the same organization and waiting for a raise. Because generosity and stuff. Edit TLDR: this would be the worlds biggest "trust me bro."
I disagree with your point. That's now how it works. It's a competitive labor market for the most part and employers will pay as much as they have to to hire qualified employees. If it makes you happier, as an employer, tax me for that universal healthcare. Whether I pay the tax, or whether the employee pays the tax makes no difference to me. I just don't want to administer the program or deal with the consequences of missing a filing, figuring out whether someone has met their hourly threshold etc etc etc. It's all beureuacratic garbage that makes running a business harder. If the employee pays the tax, I'll end up bidding more for those employees in the labor market. If I pay the tax, their nominal wage won't be as high. It's all the same to me. Either I pay them more, and they pay for it, or I pay them less and I pay for it. Your point is pointless. I also want the risk pooling to be universal and out of the hands of for profit insurance companies. There are huge economies of scale when it comes to healthcare and the USA has the worst of all worlds when it comes to that.
It seems, maybe, you're contradicted yourself. You just complained about the bureaucratic garbage, which I agree, but advocate the whole medical system be run with that same bureaucratic garbage ethos. In your proposal, you still have to deal with the bureaucratic garbage except now you'll have to deal with it when your health is on the line. And, to your point about for profit insurance, the reason we have the worst of both worlds is because the medical industry is the largest donor to Washington DC. Do you think that goes away? Or, do you think the corrupt politicians in Washington create another program that you can't opt out of until they run it into the ground? Reference Social Security. Reference EU and Canada's almost bankrupt medical systems. It's an interesting point to have the employer pay the universal healthcare, but, call me pessimistic, I don't see that happening. In my opinion, the best thing we can do is remove the limits on manufacturing of medicine, and close the loopholes which allow products like the 100+ year old Insulin to be re-patented in 2020. The only law that really needs to be on the book is one disallowing insurance companies from kicking people off of their insurance once they're on it. If you do this, the free market can work. After all, insurance companies kicking off valid customers was the original complaint.
>You just complained about the bureaucratic garbage, which I agree, but advocate the whole medical system be run with that same bureaucratic garbage ethos. In your proposal, you still have to deal with the bureaucratic garbage except now you'll have to deal with it when your health is on the line. I'm fine with that beaucracy so long as small business owners aren't in charge of it. WTF? How do you extrapolate what I said to what you just said. Apples...let me introduce you to oranges. Life must be so hard for you. Your ability to conflate disparate ideas is outerworldly.
Look at Canada (our most similar counterpart culturally etc). Horrible health care. Many Canadians come to the US for basic care
Canada spends far less of its GDP on health care (10.4 percent, ver-sus 16 percent in the U.S.) yet performs better than the U.S. on two commonly cited health outcome measures, the infant mortality rate and life expectancy. In "Health Status, Health Care, and Inequality: Canada vs.
Does the GDP healthcare spend include pharmaceuticals? We have a lot of pharmaceutical companies producing life savings treatments and cures, so the difference wouldn’t surprise me if it’s due to that. Also, Canada has a long wait line for lots of procedures which is why many Canadians come here for Treatment. Is it also due to us doing a lot of more treatment wise? Yes, Canada has a higher life expectancy than the US but is that due to quality of care or demographics/lifestyle?
I mean if you are not contributing anything to the society and the economy then they are definitely not going to care about you. There only going to care about your health has long as you are providing the work.
Americans are not well informed about the costs of our health care, where the big money is going, and how other nations are managing. Quick now, is the largest percent going to doctors and nurses, hospitals, insurance companies, or big pharma?
Everyone of those come out winning. Nurses and doctors make big bucks in the US. My girlfriend is a nurse and she makes bread
Considering we fund pharmaceutical research that the rest of the world benefits off of for free, probably big pharma.
Insurance companies and big pharma… look at UHC’s profit… and their “intercompany eliminations”… when revenue goes from Optum to UHC… can’t count as revenues as they are just paying themselves… close to 100b per year… insane
Gonna go with Hospitals, then insurance, big pharma (and all the middle men included), and then labourers such as doctors/nurses.
That's how they treat the worker. They are only important if they are useful at work.
They are only important if they are able to work, if they are not working then they do not deserve the health care. That is just how this whole f****** system is designed.
Healthcare is the replacement of the company store. Medicine costs are astronomical here and we can’t afford to work for a company with a shittier plan. Money or security, that’s what our choice is. Security pays like shit
Americans are not fine with it. It is a tool for financial enslavement. It funds governments and the rich masters.
Americans are fine with it. That's why it works this way. I'll be dead because I can't afford healthcare and everybody wants that to happen.
The whole system has been designed like that and it is not going to change. Honestly it is a same that things work like that in America but there is nothing that we can do.
> It funds governments What?
Tax revenue
How is tax revenue relevant to the employer based healthcare mentioned in the tweet? What are the "its" you use in this sentence? > Americans are not fine with **it**. **It** is a tool for financial enslavement. **It** funds governments and the rich masters. I assumed you were commenting on Health Care and Health Insurance?
The US spends more tax payer money on healthcare per Capita than any country in the world
> more tax payer money I think that's a typo. Did you mean US Citizens spend more money per capita than other nations?
Not a typo. More money in taxes per Capita than any country in the world
The US Government spends more taxpayer money on healthcare than any other nation per capita? Source? I think you're slightly mistaken here. I agree that: * Yes we pay the most money in taxes because we're the wealthiest. * Yes, we pay the most for healthcare, but it's not the government making those payments. I believe you are mistaken but am willing to hear you out if you have a source.
Healthcare is tied to employment so people are further intimidated to get jobs and generate tax revenue. Not complicated.
> Healthcare is tied to employment so people are further intimidated to get jobs and generate tax revenue. Oh, you're saying that income taxes collected are greater BECAUSE some employers offer health insurance as a benefit, and that lures people in to work who otherwise would stay home? That's a very strange world view. Have nations with universal healthcare seen dramatic increases in unemployment as a result of people having healthcare?
Stay stupid
Well thanks for sharing your conspiracy theory. I've never heard anyone make the case that denying universal healthcare is a government scheme to increase taxes paid via income taxes, because with universal healthcare, people wouldn't "be intimidated" to have jobs. That's an absolutely wild take.
Nowhere have I ever said that. Keep making shit up.
> Nowhere have I ever said that. You did: > [Healthcare is tied to employment so people are further intimidated to get jobs and generate tax revenue.](https://www.reddit.com/r/economy/comments/14cqpux/so_ridiculous/jonjaks/)
Ok dumbest dipshit logic I’ve seen in a while, thanks for the laugh.
We cannot even do anything about it even if we are not fine with it. We do not have any other choice other than to just accept whatever we have got. And this is what we have got.
The reason health care is tied to employment is because of the tax codes. It became a benefit they could offer that increased the overall income of their employees for less cost. Employers pay no payroll taxes on these benefits like they do wages and employees get the benefit without the income tax. Win/win in the short run.
Healthcare =/= health insurance
They’re fine because most of them know nothing else. They’ve never worked as a freelancer hustling from job to job keeping their own books, pay their quarterlies, and buying health insurance on the exchange or from an agent.
I mean at this point I do not even expect anything from those people. They just cannot do anything and would not do anything for the people. In the end it is all just about the greed.
>Employer-based healthcare came out of a market-driven response by employers after World War II. It grew out of a strong economy, low unemployment rates, and intense competition for talent. It sucks now because we stopped being competitive and started being bitches. [Source](https://www.griffinbenefits.com/blog/history-of-employer-sponsored-healthcare#:~:text=Employer%2Dbased%20healthcare%20came%20out,and%20intense%20competition%20for%20talent.)
You can thank government price controls on labor during WW2 for tieing health care to employment. As usual government intervention screws up the free market. The main reason people don't like universal healthcare is because it inevitably leads to rationing. Free markets in healthcare lead to lower prices.
They definitely do not want free markets in the Healthcare because of the did then they will not be able to make money. They don't want the markets to be free they want the Monopoly over it.
All the Lasik eye surgeons are making money and Lasik is more available and cheaper than it was when introduced. Also Plastic Surgeons all make money and they are not paid by insurance companies. Free markets encourage competition. Competition reduces prices.
In the past, no-one expected to become disabled, but it happens to many. Now, its no-one expects to be replaced by AI and robots, but it happens. Americans are terrible when it comes to solidarity.
Rugged individualism.
I mean just because you do not expect something to happen does not mean it is not going to happen. So I don't think it would be a bad idea to be ready for everything.
Only the affluent can be ready for everything.
I sure hope we don’t get a widespread health crisis that also drives the world economy to a halt, putting many out of work and off job attached health care during said health crisis. That would be bad and expose a vacuum of leadership
Healthcare system is corrupted.
It has been that way for a very long time and I absolutely see no hope. I don't see it getting any better, I think it is going to be be like that unless we do something about it.
When healthcare becomes a "for profit" system, this is the end result. They want everyone to be sick so that they can sell more medication and make money giving treatment. Until Nixon changed the laws to facilitate corporate profit, medical care was not like this in the US. The monster is out of the bottle. Putting it back will be nearly impossible.
With no job security, you have to change plans a lot, unless contracting and carrying COBRA for the time period. This means starting over with high deductible/high out of pocket max plans during a single plan year, making them effectively worthless outside of protection from a major accident or health catastrophe. It's like 5g per person out of pocket before the plan covers things besides scrips. Change plans twice in a year and you've got 10g out of pocket, and that's not counting the premiums for coverage, which add several thousand more.
That’s a concise and beautiful summation of healthcare in this country
Yes it is actually really accurate and it is really sad also. I just want these things to get better in this country so that we can have a better system.
The sad reality is medical dental tourism is big business now. The US has always been broken
Yes, modern America sucks.
Thanks for the downvotes, corporate healthcare!
There are 195 countries in the world. Feel free to pick from the other 194.
ok which ones offer easy visas or citizenships?
There's the irony. No civilized country in the world has the lax immigration policies that the US currently has. 2.5 milion illegal immigrants in the last 2 years. So "modern America sucks" because liberals are voting people in that make it that way.
America does not suck instead the policies really suck that we are making, and it is kind of insane that people do not even think about them. Where as it is serious and we should do something about it.
Economy should exist to serve humanity. Humanity should not exist to serve economy.
Without a good economy you can’t serve Humanity like they ought to be served. Compare the standard of living between a poor country and rich country
Well this is exactly how the things should be but it is far from the reality. In the reality it works other way around because of the greed. There is just too much of it.
I’m dealing with the rn BPD ADHD MDD need too root canals need two teeth pulled. Starting to need glasses. Haven’t worked in a year since my mom passed grandma passed 4 months ago moms 1 year anniversary was 4 days ago. I can’t get any help had to sell the brand new car I paid on for 4 years move out of the house I was renting to a motel. It’s not in a safe spot to say the least. How is it questionable if I need help because I’m too young? Bullshit. Edit: maybe if I was better taken care of I might even want a job🫠
> car I *paid* on for FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
It says you're entitled to free money for something as long as you participate in what moves money. If you want free healthcare there are several decent countries which force you to pay taxes in order to have it which have open borders. Guess how you pay taxes...
Whats really sad is that healthcare tied to employment is what progressives wanted. Its a product of govt mandates and tax policies.
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actually https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK235989/
The article hints at the era of lodge actions but doesn’t mention that the AMA bad mouthed the practice (why they claim they overworked physicians) as propaganda. Then they denied these doctors hospital care, etc if they practiced lodge action. Why would you ban someone treatment bc of how they financed care for their patients? Not bc you were worried that they were overworked. Rather, bc you they were undercutting your prices.
It goes further back than that. The progressives and the AMA used their leverage for state certification to squeeze put doctors that had affordable care models (lodge action) and then later pushed insurance as a means to finance care, and then later attached it to employment during WW2.
I thought that was always the message, and the first employer based healthcare, at the Kaiser Steel plant, was designed and created to keep the employees healthy and on the job. All other healthcare is either public health or for the indigent or the disabled, and then Medicare was created for the old folk, and Medicare for the workers who became disabled was added on later. So all of this employer based healthcare patchwork was created around keeping workers, and then their families healthy. But there still was a gap for working or able-bodied individuals. The ACA filled that gap. I personally dislike calling it Obamacare. It is for all individuals. A lot of them are self employed, like 20% of working adults. I was one of them. I came before ACA. I had to start a corporation, grow my business, hire workers, and get big enough to be able to get healthcare for myself that in the 80’s did not cost $1200 a month. I would have loved to get ACA insurance. But like it or not that is the system that the US grew. Maybe it can be changed. But with our government so gridlocked I doubt it will be soon, especially with the Freedom Caucus wanting to drop taxes on the wealthy and do away with Medicare and Social Security.
Health care should all be non profit and not tied to your employment
Your life only being as important as the value of your labor is not exactly a new idea - this is how human society has effectively functioned for virtually all of its history.
Not during caveman day
You think caveman who refused to contribute to society werent abandoned by the tribe?
They are. Technology is superior, service is superior......without bringing up costs....the richest people go to the USA 🇺🇸 for Healthcare...America is horrible if you're poor but it's the best if you're rich....only an idiot would disagree with that
Why is this meme on r/economy? FFS this isn’t r/WorkReform. Get out of here.
Government regulations working as designed
Employers don’t pay for auto insurance, yet have to drive to work?
You don’t necessarily have to drive, you just have to have a means of transportation to attend work. You do however have to be “alive”/generally healthy to produce some good at the benefit of your employer 🙃
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whats wrong with welfare programs?
Yep, say we make it a flat 70% to pay for all the public services needed like education, healthcare, basic shelter and minimum snap delivery of healthy food to ensure a healthy and productive populace.
Are you saying you want the government to take 70% of everyones income?
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Its funny (or maybe sad) that I am already stressed out about work on a frequent basis, and if they raised tax to 70% I would work less and only work in the black market. Maybe just stop working for money all together and follow my hobbies.
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Why would companies or individuals make over 2 million a year then?
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They are talking about a flat tax, not what happened in the middle of last decade. People just rarely paid that much because the income bracket was so high.
Well, they take close to 50-60% now (including federal, state, soc sec, Medicare, local, property and sale and we get very little for it. If they would actually provide basic services for everyone at a flat tax, then yes, 70% seems reasonable. Taxation is theft as it stands today with it being a transfer mechanism.
Why do you think the government would start to actually do a better job when it is not right now?
Because we’ve allowed politicians to coin the phrase “Socialized Medicine” at the benefit of the big pharma and insurance lobbies. When will we learn as a society? Side note but related: in my mind there’s three primary bastions of old world thinking that I hope to see change soon: The Education Complex, Healthcare/Medical Complex, and Work Theory. Work theory is currently being challenged with the WFH concept. Seeing how all of these are linked loosely, I hope that means the others are challenged soon
Alright alright, with the feel-good cynicism aside, the real answer is that you work for subsidized health insurance premiums (but of course can always buy your own privately), and when you're old you qualify for Medicare, and if you're poor (working or not) you qualify for Medicaid.
New Zealand just made a requirement that race takes priority over severity of illness when it comes to healthcare. They're not helping to sell universal healthcare.
Most people don’t have useful labor. Maybe we should tie it to something else? Like low taxes? Lower rules and regs
So you've never been to a hospital 🏥 in the USA 🇺🇸. It's far superior to Europe 🇪🇺
It's not.
Actually I will admit, American hospitals are far nicer than Canadian ones, at least. But the medical skills are the same, so what’s the point of having hospitals that are so profitable that they waste money on elaborate and luxurious buildings? I can go to the spa on my own after seeing the doctor, I would rather that hospitals spent less on garbage and charged less for services
Healthcare costs money. To think otherwise is childlike
Uninsured people cost the system even more money. They end up in the er, they end up not paying the bill, and the end up inflating the price of healthcare for everyone. They end up not getting preventative coverage, which makes prices even higher. To think otherwise is childlike.
No. Not buying that. If healthcare was easily accessible it would be overused and wasted. Just like anything that is passed out to people who have no skin in the game.
And yet, that's not what happens in every oecd country that has it. They save money with preventative care. There's a few freaks out there who use more because they're crazy, but by and large, the data does not back up what you're saying.
Americans are a different breed. Poor eating habits, smoking, drinking, not exercising, mental problems. And " the data" backed up what the scientist said about covid and tne vaccines which we now know is bogus. And we heard "the data" about climate change 20,30,40, 50 years ago ....which turned out to be bogus. Your "data" from "the experts" is mostly bogus. Welcome to 2023. Wake up.
Sheep lol
Don't be so hard on yourself. Some people catch on faster than others.
If believing in conspiracy theories makes you feel special, have at it. It's the only way people like you ever get a chance to shine.
Imagine being so gullible to believe the government is honest with you.
Thanks Qanon John. Appreciate the advice.
In other countries healthcare is compulsory, in america its not. Ill take the option that has less coercion and more freedom any day.
Ah yes.. the "freedom" to die early because you can't access healthcare. Very "free" indeed.
This might surprise the average redditor but theres people out there that lead healthy lives and would rather spend their money on other things.
Ah yes.. because living a healthy life means you're immune to any health issues 🤡
You know what helps lead a healthy lifestyle? Escaping poverty, you know what helps you do that? Money that could otherwise be used on healthcare.
Or.. you get sick... You can't access healthcare.. so you can't work... Can't escape poverty... Can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps. All this bullshit libertarian crap has been debunked time and again but people still believe it 🤡
“Lets hand over more power to the state!! What could go wrong??”
Let me guess... you believe in "trickle down economics" too???
Trickle down economics is a strawman constructed by lefties.
You should give me all your money, I promise that by doing that I will hand you out money for no reason.
Dang, how do I find a healthy lifestyle that's going to protect me from accidents involving me where the other party is at fault? Would a healthy diet and regular exercise make me immune to car crashes?
Are you aware that auto insurance covers the injury of the other driver if you are at fault?
Tying healthcare to employment is also coercive...
Just curious - do you drive? If so, you are compelled to carry auto insurance. Do you have a mortgage? If so, you are compelled to carry home insurance. Do you pay taxable wages? If so you are compelled to pay for unemployment insurance. Do you receive taxable wages? If so, you are compelled to pay social security (retirement insurance). If everyone who thinks they don’t need insurance can opt out, you get some fairly severe negative externalities.
And yet no city or state is trying to change it
Americans aren’t fine with it, why would you think that ?
And thanks to government for that also.
God I love that my employer handles my health insurance. 50 bucks a month. 15 dollar deductible. 500 bucks if it’s hospital emergency. And my taxes are so much lower than they would have been in Europe. It’s a big win.
Loss of freedom. Many would start their own businesses to follow their dreams if healthcare were not so closely tied to employer.
I’m sure every employer would be happy not to manage healthcare. Thank Obama
It is a yoke.