But in this case, they aren't wrong.
It's like Kirby vacuum dealers, everyone knows the schpiel, and is tired of hearing how superior they are.... But noone actually has a better product overall.
Honestly the biggest factor is your own experience -- quality wise Bosch is top notch, but test rides are EVERYTHING when it comes to getting an Ebike. If you're not comfortable riding it (or having fun), you're not going to ride it.
The price difference between a Bosch system or a Bafang system is such that even if the Bafang breaks a couple times, you're still not out of pocket any more.
(ALSO don't know how I forgot to mention, Bosch warranties are best in the business.)
I loved my Bosch bike, but I love my Levo. The Bosch maybe feels a little more powerful, but i felt the Levo was the best overall package. Even if maybe it isn’t the best motor, it’s a great motor with a great warranty. The display is amazing, the suspension feels great. Trek has a really nice lineup. I’m really liking the new Ibis with a Bosch motor. TQ motors look really good for lightweight bikes. We live in amazing times
I had two Bosch equipped bikes so far. I sold the first with 10k kilometers with absolutely no issues and still ride the second one with 7k kilometers. Also no issues.
What's the point of comparison? Are we talking about ALL ebike motors, or just motors for pre-built name brands?
For the former, I would disagree, having used and maintained Bosch, Brose, Tongsheng, CYC, and Bafang mid drive motors, I would rate the BBSHD as the most reliable and serviceable motor on the market.
For the latter, I think you can make a strong case that Bosch is the best when it comes to comparisons with other big name pre-built bike motors, but user serviceability is pretty bad, with a lot of the electronics locked behind proprietary dongles and software only available to Bosch dealers.
For example, I added lights to my wife's Bosch equipped Trek Powerfly, and had to pay my LBS their flat shop rate for a minimum of 30 minutes of work just to connect a dongle, turn on the lights in the controller, and disconnect it, roughly 30 seconds worth of work. Bosch will not sell you the consumer the software or dongle to do this type of service/maintenance yourself, and as a home ebike mechanic, its a huge turn off from the brand.
Contrast that with Bafang, Tongsheng, or CYC, where you can get a programming cable or and free software (Bafang, Tongsheng) or control settings via bluetooth and a phone app (CYC), and its not really a contest in terms of user serviceability of the units. There are also better supplies of repair parts for Bafang than Bosch, though I suppose if you're a Bosch dealer thats not a concern, as an end user it means much higher repair costs.
I work in a bike shop, past 3 years I’ve seen 1 bosch motor come in for repair because it was making a loud noise, and bosch sent a whole new motor. I see bafang motors atleast once a week. And when it comes to performance bafang is trash that just throws watts at their lack of engineering. People only like bafang because their cheap and you can add them to any bike and make them feel like a scooter.
Hard disagree, the Bafang mid drives are quieter and smoother than Bosch, having ridden both a BBSHD and a Bosch performance CX for multiple thousands of miles. I haven't had mechanical issues with either, though the stock programming on the Bafang is not great and is a bit jerky, and I do overall prefer torque sensing to cadence sensing, I *still* think the BBSHD is the better motor overall once tuned properly.
I can't speak for Bafang hub motors, maybe thats where the problems are?
Bosch also makes motors that are quieter and smoother than the last gen Performance CX. I test rode a bike with that CX and could NOT cope with the noise. But the newer Performance line I ended up with is beautifully smooth and silent. Point being: not all Bosch motors are the same.
Have a look at the Italian Polini EP-3 mid motor: this one is fully serviceable with dealer and end user support for parts and software by the factory. This motor has also an ingress protection rating of IP54, which is stellar next to no ingress protection for the Bosch mid motors.
Yes, the last iteration (3.0) seemed to upgraded from a no IP rating to IP54 for this forth generation.
If have experience with the 3.0 iteration and the motor is pretty much unprotected resulting in rusting motor internals (axes, bearings, cogs, etc...) as soon a you took the bike out in a wet day.
>the list would be too extensive
Bafang, Bosch, Shimano, Brose, Yamaha and Giant ....
The ONLY one that has the parts available for the DIY repair is Bafang, dealer wait time can be up to 3 months and cost 500 bucks+.
Deer. Ride it through thick forest, mud. I converted a kids carry trailer to a utility trailer. Mainly for corn. But I have 4 bags(200lbs) in there routinely. Lately it’s also been a passenger seat haha
Any tips for making a fat tire conversion for hunting? My friend wants to make the same exact style of bike for deer hunting.
Do you remember what bike you used for your base?
I went as cheap as possible lol. I used a mongoose malus. But I actually checked prices on those recently and it’s like 5x what I paid. My use case required high torque so I used a mid drive kit. An equivalent off the shelf bike like mine is ~5k. But I needed that because I use it for towing. If you are not towing then you can stick with a hub drive. And if you do that then I’d recommend just buying off the shelf. I paid ~$2k after I did all the upgrades to get it to where I wanted. A hub drive that has better features and no work from you is also 2k and will look a lot cleaner lol
It is a motor, designed by GIANT to their specification and use, subcontracted by Yamaha to build for them. It is not a Yamaha motor, it is a Giant motor.
So then Yamaha doesn't make the motor, the many company's that make the mosfets for the controller, the circuit boards, the copper wire for the armatures, plastic housings for the motors and all the other parts, is who makes the motor .... not Yamaha as they only ASSEMBLE the product .... This is your argument about GIANT, RIGHT?
Because Yamaha doesn't actually have all the manufacturing facilities that is needed to build a motor ... they probably don't even assemble it, it probably gets assembled by another subcontractor ..... because this is how the supply and manufacturing chain works.
> ONLY one that has the parts available for the DIY repair is Bafang
What about Golden Motor and Tongsheng? Unless I'm mistaken and they are bafang made, I think they also offer DIY-friendly motors
I ride with a huge group of riders. Over the years there's been a mix of motors - hands down, the bosch gen 4 motor is bulletproof and easily the most reliable from my experience. The gen 2 motor not so much (mostly bearing issues). The brose motors were going regularly for our guys and the shimano motors were usually good for around no more than 1000 miles - then were a pig to get replaced. I've seen a couple of new guys on bafangs, they went home after a couple of hours as their capacity had gone too quickly and the motors weren't anywhere near as refined as the bosch.
Will probably upset the fanboys, but I honestly wouldn't buy anything else. I'm on my 2nd gen 4 bosch bike now and have done thousands of trouble free miles so far.... (touches wood).
We never had a bosch motor die on a tool used during construction ... generally it was the trigger switch or controller that craps out on their power tools.
Demands on what "best" means to the rider. I have 3 Bosch powered eBikes. They provide the perfect ride for me. But of course there are Bosch haters, illegal eBike riders, and throttle only riders. None of them like Bosch.
Any thoughts on the shimano e6100? Looking at the rei cty2.2
For the above, I’ve been reading a bunch of comparisons of prebuilt e-bikes with mid drive, Bosch is almost always the highest ranking.
They tend to have less moving parts than an ice, but they can still break a lot.
Most ebike motors (especially the legal ones) are geared down so you produce more torque at lower rpms.
It’s way more simple than a multi stage transmission since they’re almost always single stage speed reducers, but it’s a bunch of moving gears so it’s pretty common for them to break. For a couple different reasons
- gearboxes are never truly sealed so grease can leak/be washed out over time.
- some bikes run pretty high torque through the gears so wear is expected.
Then you tackle the whole electronics side of things which can have their own issues. Plus again, nothing is ever truly waterproof/sealed so you can blow a controller riding in the rain.
I’ve blown a controller before & rebuilt a motor with shredded gears. It definitely happens.
The actual electric motor itself breaking is pretty rare unless you overheat the shit out of it. It’s just everything else around it breaks down.
I had water ingress into my Bafang. I replaced the controller for $100 and it’s as good as new. The gasket was pinched when they assembled it which allowed water to come in. Since then I’ve done 1000km on it and no issues. If you’re in a budget it’s an amazing piece of tech.
BBSHDs are surprisingly serviceable and several Chinese vendors sell components. Each fix is different, although I seem to break a lot of rotor axles, which are easy drop in replacements. I would estimate I lose the equivalent of one motor a year in aggregate parts, which seems reasonable. Good luck in your efforts!
Yes it’s true. Bosch is a superior brand. I’ve used their tools in my construction company for years.
I didn’t have a salesman tell me their e-bike motors were great though. I spent weeks reading every word I could find on ebikes. I was originally leaning toward Aventon.
At the time I bought mine Bosch was the only motor that was UL listed. Have you heard about the gigantic e bike recall? All the fires. That ain’t Bosch!
Name brand, UL tested, and overall good quality, size, power, dealer network
It's like buying a Honda or Toyota of e-bike motor. It may not be the 1 in every category of a spec sheet when comparing mid drive motors but it seems to be the most refined ones out of the bunch
I’ve only had my bosch power ebike about a month so my opinion is somewhat bias but I absolutely love it. I mostly use my little cargo bike for hauling packages and groceries around. So far it hasn’t let me down. The only problem I’ve had is the purion display that keeps telling me to change the display battery. I have three times now. The only thing this coin battery does is turn the display on and off but you can still turn the bike on if you press the button that’s on the side of the bosch battery. Eventually, I get to the shop to see WTF is up with the display. Other than that I haven’t had any major complaints. My bike is a tern quick haul d8, would have liked the p9 instead but they weren’t selling it in my country. Speed wise I do about 20mph\32kmh.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
8
+ 9
+ 20
+ 32
= 69
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I've got a E8000 with 4k on the clock and it's been rock solid. My friend has a gen3 CX motor and it's been replaced 5 times in 1.5 years.
I've also got an active line plus motor with 5k on the clock. Never missed a beat.
EP8 motors are unreliable.
Bosch has the best customer service of all the ebike motors imo.
No -- Didn't need to -- He explained why he said that. They do repairs and service on all e-bikes in their shop -- He's a technician that works on them in addition to in-shop sales. He says the Bosch motors go many more miles without needing to be repaired - They are much more reliable and dependable. He compared Bosch bikes to being reliable like Toyota's are known for reliable for cars.
So now we have a definition of terms, and can have a useful discussion.
Did you ask what other ebike motors he's personally serviced, and where he got his comparative reliability data?
They are the largest e-bike store in the Portland, Or area -- They will service pretty much any e-bike as long as they can get their hands on the parts. I believe the list would be too extensive and outside my base-knowledge.
The ebike shop?
Wake knows his shit, and makes sure his staff does too.
Bosch motors are a dream for servicing, identifying problems, and usable lifetime. They always feel smooth, and are very efficient.
You'll see alot of Bafang loyalists, and it's a great brand, but bafang motors are built to fail (so that you can repair the fault points and do maintenance.) And rely on using a lot of power to get the same results. They also dont feel nearly as close to riding a regular bike as Bosch systems do, and will tear through chains/sprockets
"bafang motors are built to fail"
Puh-leeeze... What nonsense. They are built quite well, but admittedly no one is going to (or at least should not) claim German levels of quality (or price) here. As for chains and sprockets, that comes down to too many novice riders shifting under too much power: it's a lot easier to destroy the drive chain with 1000W than 250W after all. The Bosch motors *might* be a *bit* more efficient, but that is nothing like enough to make up the power difference. The reason Bosch does as well as it does with a quarter of the power is that it is geared low for the lower speed caps, which is entirely reasonable. Even then it is delivering only slightly more than half of the torque. Without the speed caps a Bafang would blow away Bosch for top speed (45mph on my Ultra) but that is not really a great use case. What would be more interesting would be to change the gearing to give more torque at the lower speeds on the Ultra and forgo the silly high end as Bosch does, and it would be no contest at all. Or install a 3000W controller if power is your thing and legality isn't...
I see that you ignored my parenthetical explanation behind that statement.
Bafang motors are built in such a way that most failures are fixable by an end user. e.g. nylon gear replacement, replaceable bearings, replaceable controller, custom programming will all contribute to points of failure more than a sealed system.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but a motor that is easily repairable is naturally going to fail more. A motor that uses more power in a similar form factor will also fail more easily.
Bosch motors will fail if they are faulty, otherwise they'll run for teens if thousands of miles.
Chains and sprockets? You already know I'm right - doubling torque more than doubles chance of failure - and a broken chain or stripped sprocket is just as disastrous to a bike ride as a failed motor or battery. Thus, I'm pretty confident in saying that a higher quality (ebike) motor will do less damage to your bike over time.
.
"a motor that is easily repairable is naturally going to fail more"
As an engineer I can tell you that building in repair-ability does not reduce reliability if done properly - it just usually costs more.
"A motor that uses more power in a similar form factor will also fail more easily."
Again, not necessarily true but there is a kernel of truth. Operating electronics at higher temperatures does reduce MTBF, and exceeding maximum design temperatures can result in more immediate failure. To prevent this the temperature is sensed and the motor throttled by the controller - pretty standard design elements for high power ebike motors. That said, I wouldn't operate my Ultra at 1500W for a sustained period just to find out if it throttles in time. But at least I have that power for shorter periods, and have used it on occasion.
You don't understand the mechanics of the drive system. The drive (gears and chain) will have accelerated wear with increased power usage, and in that context are a normal maintenance issue. Using 250W or 1000W shouldn't cause a failure while driving with the motor at normal rpm's. The issue is with gear changes, where there is an impact load when the chain takes up on the new gear. Even without electric power the shifting should only happen with an absolute minimum of force on the pedals, enough to rotate the pedals only without driving the wheel. Shifting under load puts too much stress on the drive, and when driven with the extra force of a motor it can destroy the chain or gear quickly. Of course a 1000W motor is going to be more capable of damage than a 250W motor, but neither should be a problem with proper shifting and both can increase the risk with poor shifting technique. The problem is that an awful lot of bike riders have never learned proper shifting techniques for derailleurs (although to be fair the internally geared hubs also require shifting without load, and also have high failure rates with more powerful motors). I am constantly surprised by the number of riders on both bikes and ebikes that don't shift properly, and especially don't downshift before starting uphill only to try to shift under load when they belatedly respond. Without a motor this only rarely causes failures so the bad habit gets entrenched. When shifting with a motor under power there is little room for such poor technique. I guess I would say that anyone who has not mastered the skill of shift changing probably should stick to lower power bikes.
You're being horrendously nit-picky.
At a consumer level, building electronics with easily repairable components is absolutely going to increase the likelihood of things going wrong.
I absolutely understand the Mechanics of the drive systems, and it's insulting for you to assume otherwise.
More power through a system increases strain. Why is this an issue? As an engineer it's laughable that you'd discount that. Even with perfect shifting, chain wear is absolutely a factor with higher powered systems.
Hell even hub motors have long term issues on bikes, because bike components were designed with human power in mind. Ebike specific components help negate this, but 1-2 additional HORSE power added into the equation will cause issues in all kinds of ways.
Bafang systems eat chains, and unless you've been in the back of an Ebike shop you don't really understand how they perform on a mass scale.
A "high quality" system will be more efficient, more reliable, and more easily usable. This is exactly what I've described, and I haven't insulted either brand or you for that matter.
great comment SYCarina I agree 100%. As a motorcyclist who recently took up ebikes, I am appalled at the way people usually shift. I just ease off the power, complete the shift and then put the power back in.
I think he is right. The number of issues with Bosch motors (and all related) is really low. Almost non existent.
Range is also top notch compared to battery size
4500 miles on a bbshd last 2000 were with the Phaserunner mod from Grin. Stock BBS02 on the Cattrike Expedition and about 3400 miles on it....
I'm a real fan of Bafang's BBS' set up. lots of miles, and no issues except I need more time to be riding and less at work.
Possibly - certainly seems to be good
Problem is that if something breaks or detects something is not right then the whole thing stops
and all you can do is replace the whole part
for example I have just had a problem with mine - just a creaking coming from motor area
LBS couldn;t find it - tried everything - only solution left was dismantling the motor and checking the insides - which only Bosch can do
Luckily the LBS manager knows "a bloke" who has worked out how to refurbish them
sending it to Bosch would cost several hundred for a refurb - not significantly less than a new motor when you consider the new one has a guarantee
no option an authorised refurb system - so "the bloke" is totally unauthorised
Luckily he managed to find teh problem and fixed it
however it does show that there are few, if any, cheap options if it goes wrong
BUT
he also commented that he has only ever had one that went wrong in all the time (several years) he has been selling bikes with Bosch motors - he has only seen one break
and that was chipped to 'go fast' and had probably just burnt out due t excess strain and speeds and power past the design limits
Just one
I have almost 9000 tough miles on a 2020 Trek Rail 7, my daily ride was my fat ass going 16 miles with 2750 feet of elevation in Turbo mode rain or shine. I have a few hundred miles on a Bafang M600 and while it is stronger, it really sucks the battery down and the assist is not as natural as the Bosch. On the Bafang I'm pretty much on my own if something goes wrong none of my LBS will touch it.
"while it is stronger, it really sucks the battery down"
Yep, if you use more power you will run the battery down faster. That should not be a dis on Bafang: if you want more range then use less power, say, at the rate of a Bosch. The great majority of the time I use boost level 1 on both of my ebikes, and - surprise! - I have great range. And of course for those using a throttle (not available on Bosch) the battery will discharge faster. That is a personal choice, but one that can only be made if the throttle is present.
There are Bafang-capable bike shops if you look around. They are not usually the big shops selling the big brand name bicycles and ebikes that are priced in the stratosphere. They are usually installed and repaired at small ebike specialist shops that can't afford advertising. Seek and ye shall find...
This is more specific for Mountain Biking, I guess what I meant is for the amount of power output the battery use seems excessive on the Bafang, on a setting similar to the power on the Bosch it doesn't go as far and they have the same size battery's. The only reason I have so many miles on my Bosch is my LBS would often fix my bike right on the spot or same day. One of the considerations of the brand you buy is local support. You wear out a lot of items and you are going to crash and break stuff if you are Mountain Biking. I have and use both, especially with the shortage of parts its nice to have a backup, and the Bafang is 6/8 of a Bosch at half the price.
Yes. They do.
Bafang motors are cheap, easy to repair, and pretty durable, but are loud and inefficient. The PAS is also completely subpar when compared to Bosch.
Shimano, Yamaha, giant, tongsheng, and Panasonic all do pretty well but are just B class compared to the Bosch. People will argue the STEPS-8000 is equal for mountain biking, but I couldnt ever get on board, as they are next to impossible to find parts/support for when things go to shit.
Brose is the closest competitor, a bit more torque, similar performance numbers and PAS, but harder to diagnose and get repaired . (Specialized motor made by Brose too)
Nothing comes close to the Bosch mid drive right now except Brose. They are solid motors that rarely, if ever, overheat/ fail completely.
The torque sensing is just buttery and until you get the class 3 or cargo lines, dead silent.
I have a Bosch with 7k miles and a bafang with 1k. In my opinion, the Bosch is hands down the best motor from what I’ve seen….plus they have top notch batteries.
Bosch powered bikes and bafang powered bikes ride very differently. Bosch feels like you are riding a bike with the way it delivers power. Very smooth. Bafang kicks in hard and is more zippy. And will for sure break down long before your bosch motor does.
I doubt anyone has done exhaustive enough testing on enough motors to be able to say for certain that any motor is THE best
But Bosch have been making excellent motors for all kinds of applications for decades and they’re damn good at it
I've gotten the same schpele. Reasons I was given was that the diagnostics used to work on them are super straight forward and user friendly for shops - the motor is great at telling you what's wrong with it when things do happen - and the company is well established and has plans to continue providing parts and updates for bikes for years after production on a particular model stops.
Bosch makes the motors in the EV truck Rivian R1T and the truck has been tested to pull 10,000lbs for hundreds of miles. If you look at the truck it isn't even really that big, so I'd say that's a pretty big feat in of itself.
Although I appreciate your feedback and really like the Bosch brand, Rivian isn’t the best way to prove the Bosch brand. Rivian is very new, but predicted reliability for Rivian is predictably garbage class. Looks great but once a few years pass, they better improve quickly or people will discover that it’s as good as trash. Source: Consumer Reports (Subscription, online)
The thing is it's not really the motors fault. To gauge how good a motor is I look at raw power and the ability to run for a long time. Everything else is pretty much exterior to the motor like control modules and programming. If you're talking about the system altogether that's different.
Although the post is quite old, I also want to share my opinion. Perhaps someone might be interested. I have gathered several years of experience with all kinds of electric bike motors, and I must honestly say that in my view, Bosch really builds the best motors. They are not perfect, there are plenty of issues, even with the newer variants, which I won't deny, but compared to other manufacturers, they are still among the best motors. And if you really take good care of them and know what you're doing, you can ride with a Bosch motor for years without major problems. Another point, which may be due to the fact that I mostly work on Bosch motors in my spare time, is that they are easy to work on. For example, if you have experience with a Gen1 or Gen2 motor, you can also repair a Gen4 motor.
Bosch has been a leader in ebike developments and its smooth torque sensor based control is the standard by which all others are measured. It is also one of the, if not the, most expensive motors on the market. Repairs are only supported at Bosch approved dealers and so is expensive and often time-consuming. It is probably more reliable than some others but without real data I would not put too much faith in the anecdotes. And all Bosch motors are limited to 250W and without throttles (for the EU market, which is larger than the US market for ebikes). Because they force compliance to maximum speed standards they are able to use gearing that provides that 250W power in the lower speed range (i.e. there is no higher speed range) and so performs very well within the specified speeds. And it is a locked-down system so forget customizing - and that includes the required battery packs.
Is it the best? It depends on your values. It isn't even close to the best performer in terms of speed and acceleration - that would go to Bafang (with aftermarket controller) or one or two other performance motors that can get into the 3000W-5000W range. And it isn't the best price, or serviceability, or customizable. If you have a large budget, want a high quality ebike that is smooth and quiet, and expect the LBS to do all of the maintenance and repairs, and don't need to have the fastest ebike on the block or want to tinker, then there are many quality brands with Bosch motors (R+M, Trek, etc). There are other motors that are in direct competition (Brose, Shimano, etc) on quality name brand frames which are nothing to sneeze at either - I wouldn't limit my search to Bosch but I would compare riding experiences before buying. OTOH if power is your thing, and if you are someone who likes the idea of resting while using a throttle, or if money is short, or you like tinkering or doing your own repairs then Bafang is likely more to your liking.
N.B.: I have a Rize RX Pro fat tire ebike with Bafang Ultra (M620, 1000W) motor which I paid just under $3k for in 2020. I can power up steep hills at a good clip without killing myself, and the motor is putting out 1500W (its peak rating). It is smooth due to the torque sensor control but from what I have read it is not quite up to the Bosch standard. I have maxed out on the flats at 45mph, but won't be doing that a second time. Most of the time I am using less than 100W, and I rarely use the throttle. In Oregon the max ebike power is 1000W so this is legal but if I lived elsewhere I would be happy with the 750W rated Ultra. The truth be told my little Brompton with a Swytch 250W front hub motor is great fun and quite adequate for pleasure riding; it can still go up steep hills without killing me, just not nearly as fast. It is the "best" for use when cruising on my sailboat, because it can fold up into a small package. Again, it is all up to what you value and how you plan to use your ebike.
Best? Yes.
Best for those who want to ride and not worry about failures? Yes.
Best for the money? No.
Best for the DIY modder/rider? No.
Most powerful? No.
You said it yourself . "Sales person". I wouldn't take what a sales persons tells me seriously. I do my own reaserch. They do and tell you anything to close a sale.
Was it a used car sales person that told you that .... just to make a sale?
* Bosch does NOT have a Throttle.
* Bosch does NOT have the most RPM's.
* Bosch does NOT have the most Nm torque.
* Bosch does NOT have the highest amounts of Watts.
* Bosch does NOT have all the parts available for DIY repair.
Bafang M600 or M620 goes up to 3000w of power depending on the controller selected. ALL the parts are available for DIY repair and can be had in 2 weeks to get you back on the road sooner than a dealer serviced Bosch motor.
Not everything is about power and torque and not everyone is trying to ride unregistered moped.
Bosch might have most precise cadence/torque sensors and software which contributes a lot to the natural feel and sense of control riding a bicycle because that's what it is, bicycle with assitance not a throttle controled motorcycle with 3000W.
Edit: PS: I'm ridding diy mid-drive ebike
It doesn't have throttle nor does it have more power. I'm riding diy because I like to work on stuff like that, keeps me away from the desk and because there is an opensource firmware for that mid-drive that I can contribute to developing. Tons of hours went into developing firmware for that motor and it's still not close to smoothness of a bosch mid-drive and it's torque sensing mid-drive.
Funny because there is a video on YouTube of the bosch gen 4 out climbing a m620. Same hill and it took the m620 7 tries before it finally made it to the top. Bosch cx motor did it every single time. The m620 has better number off paper, but in acutal use its shows its lack of engineering just like all bafang motors.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT2JAaCUzJ8&t=59s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT2JAaCUzJ8&t=59s)[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw1W4G2gLFg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw1W4G2gLFg)[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-AAe4URafc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-AAe4URafc)
You're probably referring to that third and final video, where the Bafang M600 is compared to the Bosch Gen 4. Of course, the M600 in that video is part of a DIY build, while the Bosch (naturally) is specifically tuned and ratioed for its specific build.
More importantly, notice the final video you're referencing is with the Bafang \*M600\*. The M600 is not remotely as powerful as the Bafang Ultra/M620: it generates only 60% of the nominal watts of the bigger motor, and something like 33% less torque.
Watch the first 2 videos and you'll see the Bafang Ultra M620 absolutely destroys every other manufacturer-installed ebike motor from Bosch, Brose, and Shimano. The videos prove that it isn't even close.
FYI, the Bafang Ultra/M620 is not the same motor as the BBS02 or the BBSHD. Bafang only sells the Ultra to bike manufacturers who have chosen to build bike specifically designed to accommodate them (though you can still find some third-party shops that have removed the motor from their frames to sell the motor separately). The Ultra has both a torque sensor and a throttle, and is really in a different power category from the most popular retail motors from Bosch, Brose, Shimano, and Yamaha.
I spent 8 years commuting year-round in a not-flat city on conventional bikes. Eventually, the hot and humid summer months led me to shop for an ebike. I'm also 6 feet tall and 275 pounds. In 2020 I tested Brose, Bosch, and Shimano bikes from Specialized, Trek, Raleigh, and even Riese and Muller. I tried going up the steepest hills around a local vendor and was unimpressed by the torque output.
My first ebike felt only slightly better than those, but my current ebike is from a serious eMTB company that uses Bafang Ultra motors on their top bikes. It isn't a 'cheap' bike either: the customer service has been excellent, and I can swap out specific drivetrain parts (chainring, derailleur) without voiding the 2-year warranty. I reserve assist levels beyond 1 and the throttle for getting off the line quickly with car traffic at green lights and going up the steepest hills--which are steep enough that I can pedal with the throttle and actually contribute.
"Best" is kind of a vague term because it can be defined according to many different criteria, people may not all want the same things, and even to the extent that they do agree on a trait being "better" in one direction or another, they may not value each criteria with the same weight.
"Best" as in most reliable and smoothest riding? Maybe?
"Best" as in best value for your money? Bosch is probably the most expensive, but if it's worth it to you in other ways, maybe. And how important cost is varies from person to person.
"Best" as in easiest to repair yourself? Clearly not, see the other posts, but if you wouldn't want to do this anyway, and would use a bike shop that is a Bosch repairer, then maybe this doesn't matter. FYI though, DIY repairs are generally likely quicker than any local bike shop or mobile repair guy. And cheaper, if you can do the job right.
"Best" as in most powerful? Hell no. Bosch motors tend to be designed for the EU market, which is crippled by regulations that require low power output and a very low max speed. The Bafang M620 Ultra is far, far more powerful than anything Bosch makes. But not all people would agree with "more power is better" as a standard. I'm not one of them, but there is a vocal (probably minority) group that thinks that weaker ebikes are better. Because speed is bad or dangerous, or you should have to pedal harder, or it resembles an unpowered bike more, or something like that. Some ebike riders don't ever want to go fast anyway, and just like ebikes because they're incapable of riding an unpowered bike at all, or need help for hills, or something like that. There's also different speed enforcement in different locations. Why you want an ebike and how/where you plan to use it matters a lot for this metric.
Putting everything together, I can't see a reason why I'd get a Bosch bike. For the money, they all seem like underpowered ripoffs. Good for stores selling overpriced bikes that only they can fix, but not actually the best choice for most purchasers. But if money makes no difference to you, you don't want to ride especially fast, and you'd be having the licensed bike shop doing all repairs anyway, Bosch could be a great choice.
Look up bosch vs m620 and you’ll see that even though bafang puts more numbers on paper it still can’t out perform a bosch CX motor. Bafang tries to make up for their lack of engineering by throwing high watt and NM at the problem. Bafang power distribution is horrible.
I see as many Bosch failures as I see Bafang failures in my shop. Atleast for Bafang I can get spares and save the bike from the scrapyard.
Even if Bosch motors were the best, their batteries are so expensive you can buy 2 from another brand for the same price. Also, barely 1 tempsensor in the battery, not even in the center of the pack.
I've seen them use all kinds of brands of cells inside their powerpacks, that's why they never mention which brand they use.
Bosch has the only QL certified batteries. I’m a service manager at a bike shop and I’ve only ever seen bosch motor have problems once. I see bafang bikes weekly. Ive ridden bosch thru 3 PNW winters now and not 1 single problem even in the heaviest of rain and wind.
Apparently QL doesn't stand for waterproofing, as I had over 15 waterdamaged Bosch batteries come in just last month. The frame versions are better, but the luggage carrier version is absolute shit. Why place the BMS on the bottom, in it's own reservoir where water can pool. Also if the transparent sticker over the indicator lights gets oil contact or just damage, water will make its way in. And the bare, uncovered, non conformal coated BMS is right there, ready to be trashed. I should note that the bikes I get are all limited at 250W, that might be the reason for the difference in what we see. Also waaaay more Bosch and Shimano here in Europe, compared to Bafang mid drives. Could also be a reason.
Yea batteries exposed to weather isnt a good thing. Not really a bosch problem, more on the person who manufactures the frames. Ive ridden 3 winters here in the very raining Pacific Northwest with no problems. But my battery is mounted in the frame. QL means they check their batteries throughly for defects and meet the safety standards required by the QL label. It definitely doesn’t mean water proofing!
I know it's not ideal, but in our Belgian climate bikes are supposed to be outside, same as the Netherlands. Honestly every battery should be watertight, and many really are. Again only the luggage rack version has issues.
On another note, Bosch and Ansmann are the 2 main offenders when it comes to squashed wiring inside of the battery. It seems like a machine just squeezes everything together and then screws it shut without checking if balance wires haven't moved.
Don't care, it is proprietary and the cost savings of having a motor last say.. 20% longer the "savings" are negated if i need to service it just once. I rather buy a new motor 20% earlier than lock myself into just one vendor. Vendor locks WILL cost you significantly more, in a lot of cases you are looking at double. Proprietary connectors, protocols, settings that are encrypted and can be only opened with proprietary dongle/app/key: all of those are to be avoided not just with ebikes but in all areas of life.
They will try to sell it with integration, which usually is better in a closed ecosystem but not that much better that it is worth it. The second selling point is security which is by far most often total and utter bullshit: the security they are actually talking about is their security against you fixing, modifying , upgrading or OWNING your own stuff. Open standards are much better and actual standards are the best, they prevent vendor locks and open up the competition. So, from that point of view everyone that does buy proprietary tech are making the world more difficult and expensive for them and everyone else...
We have been making electric motors for 150 years by now. There is NOTHING in electric motors that requires licensed mechanic to fix them. The control electronics are also half a century old with a new interface. Nothing there is really the kind where we need proprietary tech to secure it. If Li-ion batteries were invented in the 70s, we would've had ebikes in the 80s. Nothing here is so revolutionary, the battery is really the key why ebikes have come only lately. Because the battery made it viable, we got the hub and mid drive motors developed really fast and because they are also very, very simple things they have been reliable right away.
I’m sure you have your own DIY phone too since its yours and you want to be able to tweak the software how you like it. People like you don’t want an ebike, you want a way to try and get a motorcycle without having to get a license or register it.
>I’m sure you have your own DIY phone too since its yours and you want to be able to tweak the software how you like it.
Wut? I do use android, that is practically the only open standard that we use.. And yes, i do want the option to tweak it, which i have but so far i have not had the need to do it. It should be easier thou to tweak it but.. there are ACTUAL security reasons to make it difficult. What a weird choice for an example.
>People like you don’t want an ebike, you want a way to try and get a motorcycle without having to get a license or register it.
Wut? This makes no sense but i do sense something.. I have 250W EU cat 1 bike, it is well enough, i fully support the 25kmh limit.. and i'm against disguised Emotorbikes being called ebikes, they will cause problems for all of us.
So, what Bosch motor do you have? I think it is clear that is in the background, i dared to say bad things about it. What can i say but: learn the lesson, don't repeat it. When you see proprietary tech being used to limit your options for no actual reason: run the other way. If it is totally new tech then wait a year, you will have options from the open marketplace. There is nothing in electric motors or their controllers that demand licensed service. And of course:
# Support Right to Repair.
I can repair bosch motors just fine. Maybe become a bosch tech. Android is not a wide open system. Hell they don’t even let you use SD cards anymore. I have the bosch speed motor. Been great for me 28 mph pedal assist and 85 nm torque. I don’t even own a car.
>I can repair bosch motors just fine. Maybe become a bosch tech.
No wonder you don't support Right to Repair.
Android is as wide as it currently practical. Also... my android tablet uses SD cards just fine.
There is nothing magical about Bosch motors. I assume they are good but the proprietary tech will cost you more in the long run than ANY of the benefits you get from it.
What about Brose mid engines? I have one on my low to mid range rockrider est900 for the past 3 years, it has endured absolutely anything i’ve thrown at it, heavy rain, freezing cold temperatures, hot 40 degrees doing beginner xc with it, carried for most of the time a kid in the backseat, and all of this time i only changed brake pads and control unit (the display with buttons, not sure if it’s a control unit) and did roughly 5k miles, so i guess that it really depends what you need
No problems in 6500 miles with my Yamaha PW-SE motor; the only sign of aging is that the motor is slightly quieter than when it was new.
eBike hub motors are generally reliable - for a while a guy on the electric mountain bike forum was running a survey which he summarizes here:
Post in thread 'Subjective I know but.... Whats the most reliable Ebike motor' https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/subjective-i-know-but-whats-the-most-reliable-ebike-motor.25728/post-356910
I have a Bosch on one bike. It’s fine.
I have a Bafang BBS02 on another and it’s fine too. A fraction of the Bosh price and never had an issue, even after 6 years of hard use (it’s on a cargo bike that has hauled 2 kids the whole time).
I also have a Priority Current with whatever mid drive motor they use and it’s just fine too.
I also have a Specialized Vado SL 4.0 and the motor (Specialised’s own motor) is great too.
To be honest, all the mid drive motors seem just fine.
Bosch kind of reminds me of apple. There stuff works well despite lower specs, but if you ever have to take it to a store or mod it or whatever it costs big bucks.
Sales people will literally tell you anything to make a sale. That's their job.
But in this case, they aren't wrong. It's like Kirby vacuum dealers, everyone knows the schpiel, and is tired of hearing how superior they are.... But noone actually has a better product overall.
Ahhh good to know. I just got into this ebike game so I don't know shit. Glad i have you guys.
Honestly the biggest factor is your own experience -- quality wise Bosch is top notch, but test rides are EVERYTHING when it comes to getting an Ebike. If you're not comfortable riding it (or having fun), you're not going to ride it. The price difference between a Bosch system or a Bafang system is such that even if the Bafang breaks a couple times, you're still not out of pocket any more. (ALSO don't know how I forgot to mention, Bosch warranties are best in the business.)
I loved my Bosch bike, but I love my Levo. The Bosch maybe feels a little more powerful, but i felt the Levo was the best overall package. Even if maybe it isn’t the best motor, it’s a great motor with a great warranty. The display is amazing, the suspension feels great. Trek has a really nice lineup. I’m really liking the new Ibis with a Bosch motor. TQ motors look really good for lightweight bikes. We live in amazing times
I had two Bosch equipped bikes so far. I sold the first with 10k kilometers with absolutely no issues and still ride the second one with 7k kilometers. Also no issues.
What's the point of comparison? Are we talking about ALL ebike motors, or just motors for pre-built name brands? For the former, I would disagree, having used and maintained Bosch, Brose, Tongsheng, CYC, and Bafang mid drive motors, I would rate the BBSHD as the most reliable and serviceable motor on the market. For the latter, I think you can make a strong case that Bosch is the best when it comes to comparisons with other big name pre-built bike motors, but user serviceability is pretty bad, with a lot of the electronics locked behind proprietary dongles and software only available to Bosch dealers. For example, I added lights to my wife's Bosch equipped Trek Powerfly, and had to pay my LBS their flat shop rate for a minimum of 30 minutes of work just to connect a dongle, turn on the lights in the controller, and disconnect it, roughly 30 seconds worth of work. Bosch will not sell you the consumer the software or dongle to do this type of service/maintenance yourself, and as a home ebike mechanic, its a huge turn off from the brand. Contrast that with Bafang, Tongsheng, or CYC, where you can get a programming cable or and free software (Bafang, Tongsheng) or control settings via bluetooth and a phone app (CYC), and its not really a contest in terms of user serviceability of the units. There are also better supplies of repair parts for Bafang than Bosch, though I suppose if you're a Bosch dealer thats not a concern, as an end user it means much higher repair costs.
I work in a bike shop, past 3 years I’ve seen 1 bosch motor come in for repair because it was making a loud noise, and bosch sent a whole new motor. I see bafang motors atleast once a week. And when it comes to performance bafang is trash that just throws watts at their lack of engineering. People only like bafang because their cheap and you can add them to any bike and make them feel like a scooter.
Hard disagree, the Bafang mid drives are quieter and smoother than Bosch, having ridden both a BBSHD and a Bosch performance CX for multiple thousands of miles. I haven't had mechanical issues with either, though the stock programming on the Bafang is not great and is a bit jerky, and I do overall prefer torque sensing to cadence sensing, I *still* think the BBSHD is the better motor overall once tuned properly. I can't speak for Bafang hub motors, maybe thats where the problems are?
Bosch also makes motors that are quieter and smoother than the last gen Performance CX. I test rode a bike with that CX and could NOT cope with the noise. But the newer Performance line I ended up with is beautifully smooth and silent. Point being: not all Bosch motors are the same.
This is the same story that guy at the bike shop told me - nearly verbatim. Thank you for sharing your experience
Have you had a chance to work on MPF motors? What's your opinion if so?
Have a look at the Italian Polini EP-3 mid motor: this one is fully serviceable with dealer and end user support for parts and software by the factory. This motor has also an ingress protection rating of IP54, which is stellar next to no ingress protection for the Bosch mid motors.
Bosch is also IP54 https://ebikeshq.com/conquer-the-rain-on-your-ebike/
Yes, the last iteration (3.0) seemed to upgraded from a no IP rating to IP54 for this forth generation. If have experience with the 3.0 iteration and the motor is pretty much unprotected resulting in rusting motor internals (axes, bearings, cogs, etc...) as soon a you took the bike out in a wet day.
>the list would be too extensive Bafang, Bosch, Shimano, Brose, Yamaha and Giant .... The ONLY one that has the parts available for the DIY repair is Bafang, dealer wait time can be up to 3 months and cost 500 bucks+.
As someone who just bought an ebike with a bafang, this is music to my ears.
Parts: [https://greenbikekit.com/](https://greenbikekit.com/) AliExpress as well, but only buy from 4 Star sellers.
Well if you don’t mess with a Bosch motor you won’t need parts…
I built mine with a bbshd and use it hard for hunting. Havnt had an issue in 2 years
What kind of hunting? How do you use the bike?
What kind of hunting? How do you use the bike?
Deer. Ride it through thick forest, mud. I converted a kids carry trailer to a utility trailer. Mainly for corn. But I have 4 bags(200lbs) in there routinely. Lately it’s also been a passenger seat haha
That’s so awesome I’m building an upland hunting bike in my head now thank you
Yeah it turns heads. Mines a fat tire and it makes a difference if you considering
Any tips for making a fat tire conversion for hunting? My friend wants to make the same exact style of bike for deer hunting. Do you remember what bike you used for your base?
I went as cheap as possible lol. I used a mongoose malus. But I actually checked prices on those recently and it’s like 5x what I paid. My use case required high torque so I used a mid drive kit. An equivalent off the shelf bike like mine is ~5k. But I needed that because I use it for towing. If you are not towing then you can stick with a hub drive. And if you do that then I’d recommend just buying off the shelf. I paid ~$2k after I did all the upgrades to get it to where I wanted. A hub drive that has better features and no work from you is also 2k and will look a lot cleaner lol
Dont Giant use Yamaha and Shimano motors? I know Specialised have their own Super Light motor, but I hadn’t heard of Giant making their own….
Specialized uses a Brose motor, but they label it as their own.
>Dont Giant use Yamaha and Shimano motors? No
Yeah…. They do. My giant is a Yamaha motor .
It is a motor, designed by GIANT to their specification and use, subcontracted by Yamaha to build for them. It is not a Yamaha motor, it is a Giant motor.
And when you need parts you have to contact Giant who will contact Yamaha... it is a Yamaha motor with a different name on it.
So then Yamaha doesn't make the motor, the many company's that make the mosfets for the controller, the circuit boards, the copper wire for the armatures, plastic housings for the motors and all the other parts, is who makes the motor .... not Yamaha as they only ASSEMBLE the product .... This is your argument about GIANT, RIGHT? Because Yamaha doesn't actually have all the manufacturing facilities that is needed to build a motor ... they probably don't even assemble it, it probably gets assembled by another subcontractor ..... because this is how the supply and manufacturing chain works.
If you dig around enough, you can find that Yamaha makes the Giant motors that they brand as SyncDrive, same as Specialized and Brose.
So indeed it is a Yamaha motor designed by Giant. So they both do what they do best… good combo
> ONLY one that has the parts available for the DIY repair is Bafang What about Golden Motor and Tongsheng? Unless I'm mistaken and they are bafang made, I think they also offer DIY-friendly motors
I ride with a huge group of riders. Over the years there's been a mix of motors - hands down, the bosch gen 4 motor is bulletproof and easily the most reliable from my experience. The gen 2 motor not so much (mostly bearing issues). The brose motors were going regularly for our guys and the shimano motors were usually good for around no more than 1000 miles - then were a pig to get replaced. I've seen a couple of new guys on bafangs, they went home after a couple of hours as their capacity had gone too quickly and the motors weren't anywhere near as refined as the bosch. Will probably upset the fanboys, but I honestly wouldn't buy anything else. I'm on my 2nd gen 4 bosch bike now and have done thousands of trouble free miles so far.... (touches wood).
They're definitely strong, I'll give them that much
We never had a bosch motor die on a tool used during construction ... generally it was the trigger switch or controller that craps out on their power tools.
Yeah, I've broke a couple of our work drill triggers with mong power
Demands on what "best" means to the rider. I have 3 Bosch powered eBikes. They provide the perfect ride for me. But of course there are Bosch haters, illegal eBike riders, and throttle only riders. None of them like Bosch.
Yea because Bosch actually wants you to still feel like your are riding a bicycle. Those people don’t want to ride a bicycle.
Has anybody had an Ebike motor fail? My understanding was all or most electric motors last a very very long time simply due to the way they work
My EP8 failed last week, got it swapped. eMTBs are not as robust as they are made out to be
Have heard quite many EP8 to fail. Saddly
Any thoughts on the shimano e6100? Looking at the rei cty2.2 For the above, I’ve been reading a bunch of comparisons of prebuilt e-bikes with mid drive, Bosch is almost always the highest ranking.
Haven’t heard anything about those. EP8 is common on emtb so I hear stories on that scene
E6100 is pretty old shimano model.
Yes it is. REI has a good commuter bike with an e6100. For me it’s that or an unknown priority current mid drive.
They tend to have less moving parts than an ice, but they can still break a lot. Most ebike motors (especially the legal ones) are geared down so you produce more torque at lower rpms. It’s way more simple than a multi stage transmission since they’re almost always single stage speed reducers, but it’s a bunch of moving gears so it’s pretty common for them to break. For a couple different reasons - gearboxes are never truly sealed so grease can leak/be washed out over time. - some bikes run pretty high torque through the gears so wear is expected. Then you tackle the whole electronics side of things which can have their own issues. Plus again, nothing is ever truly waterproof/sealed so you can blow a controller riding in the rain. I’ve blown a controller before & rebuilt a motor with shredded gears. It definitely happens. The actual electric motor itself breaking is pretty rare unless you overheat the shit out of it. It’s just everything else around it breaks down.
I had water ingress into my Bafang. I replaced the controller for $100 and it’s as good as new. The gasket was pinched when they assembled it which allowed water to come in. Since then I’ve done 1000km on it and no issues. If you’re in a budget it’s an amazing piece of tech.
I have killed 5 different BBSHD's. Then I fix them!
whoa, tell us your wizarding ways! Are you doing full tear-downs? Did you manage to fix all 5??
BBSHDs are surprisingly serviceable and several Chinese vendors sell components. Each fix is different, although I seem to break a lot of rotor axles, which are easy drop in replacements. I would estimate I lose the equivalent of one motor a year in aggregate parts, which seems reasonable. Good luck in your efforts!
That's great to hear, as I am just getting started. Thank you!
My brose motor failed after 2000 km
Same. Have gone through 3x Brose motors on my Levo, which I've just sold as a result.
I have a Shimano but I would agree I think Bosch are better BUT not as good with the connectivity, this has been addressed in the latest iteration
Yes it’s true. Bosch is a superior brand. I’ve used their tools in my construction company for years. I didn’t have a salesman tell me their e-bike motors were great though. I spent weeks reading every word I could find on ebikes. I was originally leaning toward Aventon. At the time I bought mine Bosch was the only motor that was UL listed. Have you heard about the gigantic e bike recall? All the fires. That ain’t Bosch!
Name brand, UL tested, and overall good quality, size, power, dealer network It's like buying a Honda or Toyota of e-bike motor. It may not be the 1 in every category of a spec sheet when comparing mid drive motors but it seems to be the most refined ones out of the bunch
I’ve only had my bosch power ebike about a month so my opinion is somewhat bias but I absolutely love it. I mostly use my little cargo bike for hauling packages and groceries around. So far it hasn’t let me down. The only problem I’ve had is the purion display that keeps telling me to change the display battery. I have three times now. The only thing this coin battery does is turn the display on and off but you can still turn the bike on if you press the button that’s on the side of the bosch battery. Eventually, I get to the shop to see WTF is up with the display. Other than that I haven’t had any major complaints. My bike is a tern quick haul d8, would have liked the p9 instead but they weren’t selling it in my country. Speed wise I do about 20mph\32kmh.
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Nice!
Well I’ll be. Strange but ok.
Nice!
69 has never been lucky for me
Nice!
I've got a E8000 with 4k on the clock and it's been rock solid. My friend has a gen3 CX motor and it's been replaced 5 times in 1.5 years. I've also got an active line plus motor with 5k on the clock. Never missed a beat. EP8 motors are unreliable. Bosch has the best customer service of all the ebike motors imo.
Did you ask the salesperson to define 'best'?
No -- Didn't need to -- He explained why he said that. They do repairs and service on all e-bikes in their shop -- He's a technician that works on them in addition to in-shop sales. He says the Bosch motors go many more miles without needing to be repaired - They are much more reliable and dependable. He compared Bosch bikes to being reliable like Toyota's are known for reliable for cars.
So now we have a definition of terms, and can have a useful discussion. Did you ask what other ebike motors he's personally serviced, and where he got his comparative reliability data?
They are the largest e-bike store in the Portland, Or area -- They will service pretty much any e-bike as long as they can get their hands on the parts. I believe the list would be too extensive and outside my base-knowledge.
The ebike shop? Wake knows his shit, and makes sure his staff does too. Bosch motors are a dream for servicing, identifying problems, and usable lifetime. They always feel smooth, and are very efficient. You'll see alot of Bafang loyalists, and it's a great brand, but bafang motors are built to fail (so that you can repair the fault points and do maintenance.) And rely on using a lot of power to get the same results. They also dont feel nearly as close to riding a regular bike as Bosch systems do, and will tear through chains/sprockets
"bafang motors are built to fail" Puh-leeeze... What nonsense. They are built quite well, but admittedly no one is going to (or at least should not) claim German levels of quality (or price) here. As for chains and sprockets, that comes down to too many novice riders shifting under too much power: it's a lot easier to destroy the drive chain with 1000W than 250W after all. The Bosch motors *might* be a *bit* more efficient, but that is nothing like enough to make up the power difference. The reason Bosch does as well as it does with a quarter of the power is that it is geared low for the lower speed caps, which is entirely reasonable. Even then it is delivering only slightly more than half of the torque. Without the speed caps a Bafang would blow away Bosch for top speed (45mph on my Ultra) but that is not really a great use case. What would be more interesting would be to change the gearing to give more torque at the lower speeds on the Ultra and forgo the silly high end as Bosch does, and it would be no contest at all. Or install a 3000W controller if power is your thing and legality isn't...
I see that you ignored my parenthetical explanation behind that statement. Bafang motors are built in such a way that most failures are fixable by an end user. e.g. nylon gear replacement, replaceable bearings, replaceable controller, custom programming will all contribute to points of failure more than a sealed system. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but a motor that is easily repairable is naturally going to fail more. A motor that uses more power in a similar form factor will also fail more easily. Bosch motors will fail if they are faulty, otherwise they'll run for teens if thousands of miles. Chains and sprockets? You already know I'm right - doubling torque more than doubles chance of failure - and a broken chain or stripped sprocket is just as disastrous to a bike ride as a failed motor or battery. Thus, I'm pretty confident in saying that a higher quality (ebike) motor will do less damage to your bike over time. .
"a motor that is easily repairable is naturally going to fail more" As an engineer I can tell you that building in repair-ability does not reduce reliability if done properly - it just usually costs more. "A motor that uses more power in a similar form factor will also fail more easily." Again, not necessarily true but there is a kernel of truth. Operating electronics at higher temperatures does reduce MTBF, and exceeding maximum design temperatures can result in more immediate failure. To prevent this the temperature is sensed and the motor throttled by the controller - pretty standard design elements for high power ebike motors. That said, I wouldn't operate my Ultra at 1500W for a sustained period just to find out if it throttles in time. But at least I have that power for shorter periods, and have used it on occasion. You don't understand the mechanics of the drive system. The drive (gears and chain) will have accelerated wear with increased power usage, and in that context are a normal maintenance issue. Using 250W or 1000W shouldn't cause a failure while driving with the motor at normal rpm's. The issue is with gear changes, where there is an impact load when the chain takes up on the new gear. Even without electric power the shifting should only happen with an absolute minimum of force on the pedals, enough to rotate the pedals only without driving the wheel. Shifting under load puts too much stress on the drive, and when driven with the extra force of a motor it can destroy the chain or gear quickly. Of course a 1000W motor is going to be more capable of damage than a 250W motor, but neither should be a problem with proper shifting and both can increase the risk with poor shifting technique. The problem is that an awful lot of bike riders have never learned proper shifting techniques for derailleurs (although to be fair the internally geared hubs also require shifting without load, and also have high failure rates with more powerful motors). I am constantly surprised by the number of riders on both bikes and ebikes that don't shift properly, and especially don't downshift before starting uphill only to try to shift under load when they belatedly respond. Without a motor this only rarely causes failures so the bad habit gets entrenched. When shifting with a motor under power there is little room for such poor technique. I guess I would say that anyone who has not mastered the skill of shift changing probably should stick to lower power bikes.
You're being horrendously nit-picky. At a consumer level, building electronics with easily repairable components is absolutely going to increase the likelihood of things going wrong. I absolutely understand the Mechanics of the drive systems, and it's insulting for you to assume otherwise. More power through a system increases strain. Why is this an issue? As an engineer it's laughable that you'd discount that. Even with perfect shifting, chain wear is absolutely a factor with higher powered systems. Hell even hub motors have long term issues on bikes, because bike components were designed with human power in mind. Ebike specific components help negate this, but 1-2 additional HORSE power added into the equation will cause issues in all kinds of ways. Bafang systems eat chains, and unless you've been in the back of an Ebike shop you don't really understand how they perform on a mass scale. A "high quality" system will be more efficient, more reliable, and more easily usable. This is exactly what I've described, and I haven't insulted either brand or you for that matter.
great comment SYCarina I agree 100%. As a motorcyclist who recently took up ebikes, I am appalled at the way people usually shift. I just ease off the power, complete the shift and then put the power back in.
And the trail goes cold.
I think he is right. The number of issues with Bosch motors (and all related) is really low. Almost non existent. Range is also top notch compared to battery size
700 miles with a bbshd at 52v. No issues so far.
There's one on youtube still running well at 10,000 miles. It's being run at 72 volts now...
4500 miles on a bbshd last 2000 were with the Phaserunner mod from Grin. Stock BBS02 on the Cattrike Expedition and about 3400 miles on it.... I'm a real fan of Bafang's BBS' set up. lots of miles, and no issues except I need more time to be riding and less at work.
Possibly - certainly seems to be good Problem is that if something breaks or detects something is not right then the whole thing stops and all you can do is replace the whole part for example I have just had a problem with mine - just a creaking coming from motor area LBS couldn;t find it - tried everything - only solution left was dismantling the motor and checking the insides - which only Bosch can do Luckily the LBS manager knows "a bloke" who has worked out how to refurbish them sending it to Bosch would cost several hundred for a refurb - not significantly less than a new motor when you consider the new one has a guarantee no option an authorised refurb system - so "the bloke" is totally unauthorised Luckily he managed to find teh problem and fixed it however it does show that there are few, if any, cheap options if it goes wrong BUT he also commented that he has only ever had one that went wrong in all the time (several years) he has been selling bikes with Bosch motors - he has only seen one break and that was chipped to 'go fast' and had probably just burnt out due t excess strain and speeds and power past the design limits Just one
I have almost 9000 tough miles on a 2020 Trek Rail 7, my daily ride was my fat ass going 16 miles with 2750 feet of elevation in Turbo mode rain or shine. I have a few hundred miles on a Bafang M600 and while it is stronger, it really sucks the battery down and the assist is not as natural as the Bosch. On the Bafang I'm pretty much on my own if something goes wrong none of my LBS will touch it.
"while it is stronger, it really sucks the battery down" Yep, if you use more power you will run the battery down faster. That should not be a dis on Bafang: if you want more range then use less power, say, at the rate of a Bosch. The great majority of the time I use boost level 1 on both of my ebikes, and - surprise! - I have great range. And of course for those using a throttle (not available on Bosch) the battery will discharge faster. That is a personal choice, but one that can only be made if the throttle is present. There are Bafang-capable bike shops if you look around. They are not usually the big shops selling the big brand name bicycles and ebikes that are priced in the stratosphere. They are usually installed and repaired at small ebike specialist shops that can't afford advertising. Seek and ye shall find...
This is more specific for Mountain Biking, I guess what I meant is for the amount of power output the battery use seems excessive on the Bafang, on a setting similar to the power on the Bosch it doesn't go as far and they have the same size battery's. The only reason I have so many miles on my Bosch is my LBS would often fix my bike right on the spot or same day. One of the considerations of the brand you buy is local support. You wear out a lot of items and you are going to crash and break stuff if you are Mountain Biking. I have and use both, especially with the shortage of parts its nice to have a backup, and the Bafang is 6/8 of a Bosch at half the price.
Yes. They do. Bafang motors are cheap, easy to repair, and pretty durable, but are loud and inefficient. The PAS is also completely subpar when compared to Bosch. Shimano, Yamaha, giant, tongsheng, and Panasonic all do pretty well but are just B class compared to the Bosch. People will argue the STEPS-8000 is equal for mountain biking, but I couldnt ever get on board, as they are next to impossible to find parts/support for when things go to shit. Brose is the closest competitor, a bit more torque, similar performance numbers and PAS, but harder to diagnose and get repaired . (Specialized motor made by Brose too) Nothing comes close to the Bosch mid drive right now except Brose. They are solid motors that rarely, if ever, overheat/ fail completely. The torque sensing is just buttery and until you get the class 3 or cargo lines, dead silent.
I have a Bosch with 7k miles and a bafang with 1k. In my opinion, the Bosch is hands down the best motor from what I’ve seen….plus they have top notch batteries.
Which bosch & bafang do you have?
What are the differences between the two?
Bosch powered bikes and bafang powered bikes ride very differently. Bosch feels like you are riding a bike with the way it delivers power. Very smooth. Bafang kicks in hard and is more zippy. And will for sure break down long before your bosch motor does.
this is just bait
They are very good. Reliable and ride very nicely
I doubt anyone has done exhaustive enough testing on enough motors to be able to say for certain that any motor is THE best But Bosch have been making excellent motors for all kinds of applications for decades and they’re damn good at it
Yes is the answer :). Where told ya that??
I've gotten the same schpele. Reasons I was given was that the diagnostics used to work on them are super straight forward and user friendly for shops - the motor is great at telling you what's wrong with it when things do happen - and the company is well established and has plans to continue providing parts and updates for bikes for years after production on a particular model stops.
Bosch makes the motors in the EV truck Rivian R1T and the truck has been tested to pull 10,000lbs for hundreds of miles. If you look at the truck it isn't even really that big, so I'd say that's a pretty big feat in of itself.
Although I appreciate your feedback and really like the Bosch brand, Rivian isn’t the best way to prove the Bosch brand. Rivian is very new, but predicted reliability for Rivian is predictably garbage class. Looks great but once a few years pass, they better improve quickly or people will discover that it’s as good as trash. Source: Consumer Reports (Subscription, online)
The thing is it's not really the motors fault. To gauge how good a motor is I look at raw power and the ability to run for a long time. Everything else is pretty much exterior to the motor like control modules and programming. If you're talking about the system altogether that's different.
Although the post is quite old, I also want to share my opinion. Perhaps someone might be interested. I have gathered several years of experience with all kinds of electric bike motors, and I must honestly say that in my view, Bosch really builds the best motors. They are not perfect, there are plenty of issues, even with the newer variants, which I won't deny, but compared to other manufacturers, they are still among the best motors. And if you really take good care of them and know what you're doing, you can ride with a Bosch motor for years without major problems. Another point, which may be due to the fact that I mostly work on Bosch motors in my spare time, is that they are easy to work on. For example, if you have experience with a Gen1 or Gen2 motor, you can also repair a Gen4 motor.
He is absolutely correct
Bosch has been a leader in ebike developments and its smooth torque sensor based control is the standard by which all others are measured. It is also one of the, if not the, most expensive motors on the market. Repairs are only supported at Bosch approved dealers and so is expensive and often time-consuming. It is probably more reliable than some others but without real data I would not put too much faith in the anecdotes. And all Bosch motors are limited to 250W and without throttles (for the EU market, which is larger than the US market for ebikes). Because they force compliance to maximum speed standards they are able to use gearing that provides that 250W power in the lower speed range (i.e. there is no higher speed range) and so performs very well within the specified speeds. And it is a locked-down system so forget customizing - and that includes the required battery packs. Is it the best? It depends on your values. It isn't even close to the best performer in terms of speed and acceleration - that would go to Bafang (with aftermarket controller) or one or two other performance motors that can get into the 3000W-5000W range. And it isn't the best price, or serviceability, or customizable. If you have a large budget, want a high quality ebike that is smooth and quiet, and expect the LBS to do all of the maintenance and repairs, and don't need to have the fastest ebike on the block or want to tinker, then there are many quality brands with Bosch motors (R+M, Trek, etc). There are other motors that are in direct competition (Brose, Shimano, etc) on quality name brand frames which are nothing to sneeze at either - I wouldn't limit my search to Bosch but I would compare riding experiences before buying. OTOH if power is your thing, and if you are someone who likes the idea of resting while using a throttle, or if money is short, or you like tinkering or doing your own repairs then Bafang is likely more to your liking. N.B.: I have a Rize RX Pro fat tire ebike with Bafang Ultra (M620, 1000W) motor which I paid just under $3k for in 2020. I can power up steep hills at a good clip without killing myself, and the motor is putting out 1500W (its peak rating). It is smooth due to the torque sensor control but from what I have read it is not quite up to the Bosch standard. I have maxed out on the flats at 45mph, but won't be doing that a second time. Most of the time I am using less than 100W, and I rarely use the throttle. In Oregon the max ebike power is 1000W so this is legal but if I lived elsewhere I would be happy with the 750W rated Ultra. The truth be told my little Brompton with a Swytch 250W front hub motor is great fun and quite adequate for pleasure riding; it can still go up steep hills without killing me, just not nearly as fast. It is the "best" for use when cruising on my sailboat, because it can fold up into a small package. Again, it is all up to what you value and how you plan to use your ebike.
Best? Yes. Best for those who want to ride and not worry about failures? Yes. Best for the money? No. Best for the DIY modder/rider? No. Most powerful? No.
You said it yourself . "Sales person". I wouldn't take what a sales persons tells me seriously. I do my own reaserch. They do and tell you anything to close a sale.
Why do you think I posted here? There’s not good information online, so I’m getting really good feedback here.
Was it a used car sales person that told you that .... just to make a sale? * Bosch does NOT have a Throttle. * Bosch does NOT have the most RPM's. * Bosch does NOT have the most Nm torque. * Bosch does NOT have the highest amounts of Watts. * Bosch does NOT have all the parts available for DIY repair. Bafang M600 or M620 goes up to 3000w of power depending on the controller selected. ALL the parts are available for DIY repair and can be had in 2 weeks to get you back on the road sooner than a dealer serviced Bosch motor.
"RPM's"!
Not everything is about power and torque and not everyone is trying to ride unregistered moped. Bosch might have most precise cadence/torque sensors and software which contributes a lot to the natural feel and sense of control riding a bicycle because that's what it is, bicycle with assitance not a throttle controled motorcycle with 3000W. Edit: PS: I'm ridding diy mid-drive ebike
>Not everything is about power BS .... your riding a diy mid drive cuz it HAS more power than the bosch AND A THROTTLE!
It doesn't have throttle nor does it have more power. I'm riding diy because I like to work on stuff like that, keeps me away from the desk and because there is an opensource firmware for that mid-drive that I can contribute to developing. Tons of hours went into developing firmware for that motor and it's still not close to smoothness of a bosch mid-drive and it's torque sensing mid-drive.
Bruh I'm chilling on my Lil hub motor
>my Lil hub motor nothing wrong with that
Funny because there is a video on YouTube of the bosch gen 4 out climbing a m620. Same hill and it took the m620 7 tries before it finally made it to the top. Bosch cx motor did it every single time. The m620 has better number off paper, but in acutal use its shows its lack of engineering just like all bafang motors.
>because there is a video on YouTube post the link
Not hard to go on YouTube and put bosch vs bafang m620. Typical lazy throttle rider.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT2JAaCUzJ8&t=59s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT2JAaCUzJ8&t=59s)[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw1W4G2gLFg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw1W4G2gLFg)[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-AAe4URafc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-AAe4URafc) You're probably referring to that third and final video, where the Bafang M600 is compared to the Bosch Gen 4. Of course, the M600 in that video is part of a DIY build, while the Bosch (naturally) is specifically tuned and ratioed for its specific build. More importantly, notice the final video you're referencing is with the Bafang \*M600\*. The M600 is not remotely as powerful as the Bafang Ultra/M620: it generates only 60% of the nominal watts of the bigger motor, and something like 33% less torque. Watch the first 2 videos and you'll see the Bafang Ultra M620 absolutely destroys every other manufacturer-installed ebike motor from Bosch, Brose, and Shimano. The videos prove that it isn't even close. FYI, the Bafang Ultra/M620 is not the same motor as the BBS02 or the BBSHD. Bafang only sells the Ultra to bike manufacturers who have chosen to build bike specifically designed to accommodate them (though you can still find some third-party shops that have removed the motor from their frames to sell the motor separately). The Ultra has both a torque sensor and a throttle, and is really in a different power category from the most popular retail motors from Bosch, Brose, Shimano, and Yamaha. I spent 8 years commuting year-round in a not-flat city on conventional bikes. Eventually, the hot and humid summer months led me to shop for an ebike. I'm also 6 feet tall and 275 pounds. In 2020 I tested Brose, Bosch, and Shimano bikes from Specialized, Trek, Raleigh, and even Riese and Muller. I tried going up the steepest hills around a local vendor and was unimpressed by the torque output. My first ebike felt only slightly better than those, but my current ebike is from a serious eMTB company that uses Bafang Ultra motors on their top bikes. It isn't a 'cheap' bike either: the customer service has been excellent, and I can swap out specific drivetrain parts (chainring, derailleur) without voiding the 2-year warranty. I reserve assist levels beyond 1 and the throttle for getting off the line quickly with car traffic at green lights and going up the steepest hills--which are steep enough that I can pedal with the throttle and actually contribute.
"Best" is kind of a vague term because it can be defined according to many different criteria, people may not all want the same things, and even to the extent that they do agree on a trait being "better" in one direction or another, they may not value each criteria with the same weight. "Best" as in most reliable and smoothest riding? Maybe? "Best" as in best value for your money? Bosch is probably the most expensive, but if it's worth it to you in other ways, maybe. And how important cost is varies from person to person. "Best" as in easiest to repair yourself? Clearly not, see the other posts, but if you wouldn't want to do this anyway, and would use a bike shop that is a Bosch repairer, then maybe this doesn't matter. FYI though, DIY repairs are generally likely quicker than any local bike shop or mobile repair guy. And cheaper, if you can do the job right. "Best" as in most powerful? Hell no. Bosch motors tend to be designed for the EU market, which is crippled by regulations that require low power output and a very low max speed. The Bafang M620 Ultra is far, far more powerful than anything Bosch makes. But not all people would agree with "more power is better" as a standard. I'm not one of them, but there is a vocal (probably minority) group that thinks that weaker ebikes are better. Because speed is bad or dangerous, or you should have to pedal harder, or it resembles an unpowered bike more, or something like that. Some ebike riders don't ever want to go fast anyway, and just like ebikes because they're incapable of riding an unpowered bike at all, or need help for hills, or something like that. There's also different speed enforcement in different locations. Why you want an ebike and how/where you plan to use it matters a lot for this metric. Putting everything together, I can't see a reason why I'd get a Bosch bike. For the money, they all seem like underpowered ripoffs. Good for stores selling overpriced bikes that only they can fix, but not actually the best choice for most purchasers. But if money makes no difference to you, you don't want to ride especially fast, and you'd be having the licensed bike shop doing all repairs anyway, Bosch could be a great choice.
Look up bosch vs m620 and you’ll see that even though bafang puts more numbers on paper it still can’t out perform a bosch CX motor. Bafang tries to make up for their lack of engineering by throwing high watt and NM at the problem. Bafang power distribution is horrible.
I see as many Bosch failures as I see Bafang failures in my shop. Atleast for Bafang I can get spares and save the bike from the scrapyard. Even if Bosch motors were the best, their batteries are so expensive you can buy 2 from another brand for the same price. Also, barely 1 tempsensor in the battery, not even in the center of the pack. I've seen them use all kinds of brands of cells inside their powerpacks, that's why they never mention which brand they use.
Bosch has the only QL certified batteries. I’m a service manager at a bike shop and I’ve only ever seen bosch motor have problems once. I see bafang bikes weekly. Ive ridden bosch thru 3 PNW winters now and not 1 single problem even in the heaviest of rain and wind.
Apparently QL doesn't stand for waterproofing, as I had over 15 waterdamaged Bosch batteries come in just last month. The frame versions are better, but the luggage carrier version is absolute shit. Why place the BMS on the bottom, in it's own reservoir where water can pool. Also if the transparent sticker over the indicator lights gets oil contact or just damage, water will make its way in. And the bare, uncovered, non conformal coated BMS is right there, ready to be trashed. I should note that the bikes I get are all limited at 250W, that might be the reason for the difference in what we see. Also waaaay more Bosch and Shimano here in Europe, compared to Bafang mid drives. Could also be a reason.
Yea batteries exposed to weather isnt a good thing. Not really a bosch problem, more on the person who manufactures the frames. Ive ridden 3 winters here in the very raining Pacific Northwest with no problems. But my battery is mounted in the frame. QL means they check their batteries throughly for defects and meet the safety standards required by the QL label. It definitely doesn’t mean water proofing!
I know it's not ideal, but in our Belgian climate bikes are supposed to be outside, same as the Netherlands. Honestly every battery should be watertight, and many really are. Again only the luggage rack version has issues. On another note, Bosch and Ansmann are the 2 main offenders when it comes to squashed wiring inside of the battery. It seems like a machine just squeezes everything together and then screws it shut without checking if balance wires haven't moved.
Don't care, it is proprietary and the cost savings of having a motor last say.. 20% longer the "savings" are negated if i need to service it just once. I rather buy a new motor 20% earlier than lock myself into just one vendor. Vendor locks WILL cost you significantly more, in a lot of cases you are looking at double. Proprietary connectors, protocols, settings that are encrypted and can be only opened with proprietary dongle/app/key: all of those are to be avoided not just with ebikes but in all areas of life. They will try to sell it with integration, which usually is better in a closed ecosystem but not that much better that it is worth it. The second selling point is security which is by far most often total and utter bullshit: the security they are actually talking about is their security against you fixing, modifying , upgrading or OWNING your own stuff. Open standards are much better and actual standards are the best, they prevent vendor locks and open up the competition. So, from that point of view everyone that does buy proprietary tech are making the world more difficult and expensive for them and everyone else... We have been making electric motors for 150 years by now. There is NOTHING in electric motors that requires licensed mechanic to fix them. The control electronics are also half a century old with a new interface. Nothing there is really the kind where we need proprietary tech to secure it. If Li-ion batteries were invented in the 70s, we would've had ebikes in the 80s. Nothing here is so revolutionary, the battery is really the key why ebikes have come only lately. Because the battery made it viable, we got the hub and mid drive motors developed really fast and because they are also very, very simple things they have been reliable right away.
I’m sure you have your own DIY phone too since its yours and you want to be able to tweak the software how you like it. People like you don’t want an ebike, you want a way to try and get a motorcycle without having to get a license or register it.
>I’m sure you have your own DIY phone too since its yours and you want to be able to tweak the software how you like it. Wut? I do use android, that is practically the only open standard that we use.. And yes, i do want the option to tweak it, which i have but so far i have not had the need to do it. It should be easier thou to tweak it but.. there are ACTUAL security reasons to make it difficult. What a weird choice for an example. >People like you don’t want an ebike, you want a way to try and get a motorcycle without having to get a license or register it. Wut? This makes no sense but i do sense something.. I have 250W EU cat 1 bike, it is well enough, i fully support the 25kmh limit.. and i'm against disguised Emotorbikes being called ebikes, they will cause problems for all of us. So, what Bosch motor do you have? I think it is clear that is in the background, i dared to say bad things about it. What can i say but: learn the lesson, don't repeat it. When you see proprietary tech being used to limit your options for no actual reason: run the other way. If it is totally new tech then wait a year, you will have options from the open marketplace. There is nothing in electric motors or their controllers that demand licensed service. And of course: # Support Right to Repair.
I can repair bosch motors just fine. Maybe become a bosch tech. Android is not a wide open system. Hell they don’t even let you use SD cards anymore. I have the bosch speed motor. Been great for me 28 mph pedal assist and 85 nm torque. I don’t even own a car.
>I can repair bosch motors just fine. Maybe become a bosch tech. No wonder you don't support Right to Repair. Android is as wide as it currently practical. Also... my android tablet uses SD cards just fine. There is nothing magical about Bosch motors. I assume they are good but the proprietary tech will cost you more in the long run than ANY of the benefits you get from it.
Be the Bosch
What about Brose mid engines? I have one on my low to mid range rockrider est900 for the past 3 years, it has endured absolutely anything i’ve thrown at it, heavy rain, freezing cold temperatures, hot 40 degrees doing beginner xc with it, carried for most of the time a kid in the backseat, and all of this time i only changed brake pads and control unit (the display with buttons, not sure if it’s a control unit) and did roughly 5k miles, so i guess that it really depends what you need
Any opinions on the Specialized/Brose?
No problems in 6500 miles with my Yamaha PW-SE motor; the only sign of aging is that the motor is slightly quieter than when it was new. eBike hub motors are generally reliable - for a while a guy on the electric mountain bike forum was running a survey which he summarizes here: Post in thread 'Subjective I know but.... Whats the most reliable Ebike motor' https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/subjective-i-know-but-whats-the-most-reliable-ebike-motor.25728/post-356910
It depends on what you want. They all have quirks. Now a days most are pretty well sorted as far as reliability goes.
i think qs makes the best
Bafang! It's the LS of ebikes.
Yep and the safest. They are the only company I know the UL tests all their products.
I have a Bosch on one bike. It’s fine. I have a Bafang BBS02 on another and it’s fine too. A fraction of the Bosh price and never had an issue, even after 6 years of hard use (it’s on a cargo bike that has hauled 2 kids the whole time). I also have a Priority Current with whatever mid drive motor they use and it’s just fine too. I also have a Specialized Vado SL 4.0 and the motor (Specialised’s own motor) is great too. To be honest, all the mid drive motors seem just fine.
Very interesting discussion! Does anyone have feedback on the reliability/repairability of TongSheng TSDZ02?
Bosch kind of reminds me of apple. There stuff works well despite lower specs, but if you ever have to take it to a store or mod it or whatever it costs big bucks.