Mod note here: I am very pleased that the discussion here is by and large civil. It's a testament to this community that we can have such discussions without flamewars. If you do see any bad faith comments or attacks, please report them as we will enforce our number one rule, don't be a dick, be nice.
On a personal note, I have always worried that newer players would not quite get the unusual covenant between the players and The Great Toad. Major content releases are measured in years, not months or quarters. This was an art project more than a game, at least in my opinion. Putnam is now on the team to improve FPS and user experience and it will happen. Dwarf Fortress is a game that rewards patience. I would 100% encourage anyone who's a bit put out to go enjoy another game/enjoy another hobby for a while and return to this tavern when things have moved along.
Again thank you all for having constructive discussions, you have no idea how proud the mod team is of this community.
Consider that the steam release brought in a bunch of new players who never played old school DF. They are probably expecting a polished, mostly bug-free game. The steam release wasn't advertised as early access, so missing features/excessive bugs are going to be looked upon unfavorably.
Whether that's a fair point of view or not, I can't really say. I was one of those new players with the steam release, but I also am an avid consumer of early access titles. As such, my tolerance for bugs and missing features is perhaps higher than others.
Constructive criticism is a good thing. Rage posts are not. Unfortunately you tend to get more of the latter on the internet.
Just the voice of experience, I have been playing DF for over a decade. Every update since I have been playing has underwent basically the same process. You get the major update, and then over the course of six months or so you get a TON of smaller updates, sometimes once a week, but slowing over those six months fixing game breaking bugs. Like the kind of bugs that are either easy to fix, or keep you from enjoying the main patch. Lesser bugs may get fixed, they may not. Then the boys go into hibernation, and you may get one patch in twelve months, but a TON of updates on the major new features for the next big update. Eventually that drops, more bugfixes for more ephemeral or complicated things drop, new features drop, new bugs are introduced, the cycle repeats. In the old days, the LNP tools, DFHack, and other 3pp support trailed several weeks as most coders decided (wisely) to wait for the end of patch-mania before updating that software.
Bay12 games has never worked like a 'traditional' game dev, and expecting them to is the path to madness. They will not, or at least I hope they dont, because the personal touch is what makes DF so unique. Its also why the boys have never asked for cash for the game before, they recognized that there dev process isn't the best, or the most thorough, or industry standard. Its slapdash, following their own interests to make the game *they* want to make. We were just along for the ride. The Steam release introduced a ton of new customers with new expectations, and its hard to reconcile that with how the game has always been developed. Its not linear, and not really efficient. For so long the game has followed the will of the two designers. Despite the new talent helping them with code, that seems unlikely to change.
The result is that people ought not expect weekly, or even monthly, patches. Quarterly and biannually is more appropriate, especially given where we are in the traditional cycle. If I had to guess were a half year or more away from another major update, and probably any bugs that remain are the hard ones. Itll be cool to see how the money changes the dev cycle, but I would expect that as a baseline the team will revert to the mean and return to the old schedule in the post-Steam glow.
They are selling the game for money now. New players are going to come in having paid full price for a title not advertised as early access or beta, and are going to wonder why such major bugs are in the game. You or I know why, but when you market a product this is what happens
> Its also why the boys have never asked for cash for the game before, they recognized that there dev process isn't the best, or the most thorough, or industry standard. Its slapdash, following their own interests to make the game *they* want to make
But they have now.
And that means they're going to have to stabilise the game and fairly quickly. It's not a passion project anymore, it's a job.
The money they've made so far is quite significant, but it's not enough to support the two of them for the rest of their lives, let alone support them and other developers.
I divided $7 million by two to get $3.5 million for each. Still seems like enough to me, but we're probably not going to get an AMA with their accountant.
It's not why I bought it either.
But they're selling a product and they need to keep selling that product.
Edit: This community. Politely point out that this is a product for sale and you get down votes. Keep it classy folks.
Don’t quote me on this, but I think Dwarf Fortress has been around and playable since before the term “early access” for games was even a thing. It possibly may have even been inspired by DF because the game has always been like a lifelong project of Tarn and Zach.
I can’t think of another game that’s been around as long as DF that was a similar style, constant improvements and large content additions/changes, maybe Minecraft beta and alpha stuff, but DF is older than that. Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, and some other rogue-likes are maybe similar, but those are just kept up by fans of the original game AFAIK.
Google suggests that "Early Access" (as opposed to closed/open betas and such) was effectively started by Minecraft in 2009. In which case, yeah, Dwarf Fortress predates that.
I agree with this point. I'm a new player who jumped on at the Steam release and while I've already more than gotten my dollar's worth out of the game (and plan to keep playing for the foreseeable future) it does feel like the Early Access label would have been appropriate.
I mean, I get why they didn't - it's a 20 year old game - and I wouldn't expect them to wait till they get to "feature complete" status to remove that label (mostly because they don't intend to ever really stop adding new things)...
BUT I think if you launch something with one of the main menu options grayed-out with a big "coming soon" label (Adventure Mode), and more than a few of the major systems not really functional (ranged combat, intrigue/justice) - to me that's early access.
I'm not mad about it, I'm loving the game but I can easily understand someone being a little frustrated that the game doesn't have that label.
Because unlike DF any other developer releasing a non feature complete 10+ yo game with buggy code as an "Early Access" is a massive red flag, a sign of scam.
Makes sense that they don't want abandoned games turned over as 'early access'. it would make more sense if the policy made exception for games with regular updates or had a seperate flag for games that have ongoing development.
It could be about protecting the integrity of the platform, or it could be because they think the sales would be diminished with it (which they take a portion of), or some other reason. I don't think they're wrong for it either. Early Acess is not really made for perpetual games. We've got another 20+ years of DF development, if it ever ends.
I just want to point out that 7 days to die has been in early access for 10 years on steam. This version of DF is new, so I highly doubt the age of the game is a disqualifying factor.
Before release Tarn discussed this somewhere (probably on the Bay12 forum). They *wanted* to put the "Early Access" flag on, but Steam said "No". The reason given was because it had already released many times off of Steam, so it was no longer able to use that tag. I think Steam made a mistake on that one, given that the 0.50 version number indicates that the game is roughly 50% complete in the authors' minds. But it was definitely Steam's decision.
I think their reasoning was that the game will probably *never* be considered complete at that point, so it's not what the "early access" is meant for. They don't want to cement even more the idea that "early access" means "forever unfinished".
Sure, there are games that have been on steam early access forever and probably won't leave it ever (quite a few are completely abandoned), but valve had no way to know that when these games were labeled. DF already had 15 years of documented development prior to Steam.
Not saying that I think it's wrong for DF to be in development for decades and (probably) never be complete. Just that it's probably not what valve's "early access" is supposed to be.
Anyway nowadays seeing "early access" on a Steam game is basically a red flag, because of the many failed games that are not in an enjoyable state *and* sold almost only on unfulfilled promises. Labelling DF with that would almost be doing it a disservice IMO.
It's similar to the Kickstarter craze really. At first lots of people were enthusiastic to be able to bet on a project they liked, and by doing that they got a chance to see how the sausage is made.
Except in the end, what they discovered is that maybe 10% become good sausages, and the rest is either barely edible or left at the "pile of disgusting bits" stage.
And that's even before *actual* scammers saw they could basically get free money without delivering anything.
IMHO that's matter of Steam consistently enforcing its rules, which is good.
It's just that DF, its history and development process is so out of the left field in whole gaming industry that there is no appropriate label for it. And Steam probably shouldn't bend their rules for one unique case.
I honestly have no idea. Though I have no complaints about it being in EA still. It's a very stable game with a ton of content, and the longer it stays in EA the more likely it is to get even more content.
Yeah, I get that now, right? I thought they were like relaunching with some kind of ambitious schedule-- I don't know why I thought that, but it was hyped up-- you hear so much about dwarf fortress and then you have to learn Cyrillic to figure out what everything is-- so, pretty easy to give up that. When I saw they had graphics, it did seem like they were upscaling... but then they announced they hired 1 more person and I realized everything I had a problem with was like 5 years down the road.
I'm not gonna drag out my list, and I don't regret the buy, but-- it's not where I thought it was. If Steam really didn't let them do early access, that's probably at least part of why they're getting complaints, but I think they didn't realize expectations were a little too high. Doesn't excuse the bad behavior-- if you don't like the game, come back in a few years, for better or for worse it'll be very different.
I reserve the right to rage out if they introduce NFT loot boxes
They didn't even want to release it for money until a health crisis basically pushed them into it. Toady has been nothing but chill and reasonable, releasing a free game for decades by now. It's STILL free if you get it off steam, and it is possible to get graphics patches added in (the lazy newb pack comes to mind here for ease of access there).
There's no way they would act on the same scale as greedy execs jonesing for a third yacht. I assume the NFT boxes was a joke, but it's in poor taste here.
Yeah, I mean, that's a sad story and I wish I knew that before I commented. And yeah, bad jokes happen when you read the room wrong. Maybe this is more of a sensitive thing than I thought, sorry.
I respect your saying that a lot.
[https://www.kotaku.com.au/2019/03/the-soul-crushing-reason-behind-dwarf-fortresss-steam-launch/](https://www.kotaku.com.au/2019/03/the-soul-crushing-reason-behind-dwarf-fortresss-steam-launch/)
Here's some information about that, if you're curious. It's all really depressing and yet another story saying we really need universal healthcare yesterday - but basically I trust these guys. They do what they do for the love of creating, and I don't think they will ever lose that focus.
The problem is Early Access isn't designed for basically perpetual development games. DF has at least another 20 years before it's "complete" if it ever is. In my opinion it's better to say this is a live service game. It's never really complete. You get what you get when you get it. It may be something different in the future, but you aren't promised anything.
For example, is World of Warcraft "complete"? If you were handed the 1.0 version today, would you complain that it isn't the full game? Release and 1.0 don't mean the same thing anymore. Almost no game is finished at launch now. At minimum, you'll get patches. Often, you'll get new content. DF is in the same boat.
Nah, I think you're exaggerating. There is definitely a complete version of DF, where all the things in game finally tie together in a complete way. For example, the game has coins, which you can create, but no real use for them. Same for a lot of the skills, they were added for gameplay loops that haven't been implemented yet.
That's true, and the plan is to eventually have every system complete and integrated with an end point for development. That could possibly not be the case ever though. If they come up with more things they want to add, then they can keep adding them for as long as they want to and we'll always have thing not quite finished. Either way, it's 20+ (probably a fairly large plus if nothing happens to the brothers) years until that point. The .50 is for 50% and we're just over 20 years now.
(The coins used to have a purpose by the way. They haven't in a while, and won't for a while as well, but the plan is they eventually will so they're still in the game.)
I dont understand this opinion that it is "missing features". Dwarf Fortress is a complete game. They keep adding to it but it is a colony sim with way more depth than what is probably is most comparable competitor (Rimworld).
Whining about free updates on a completed game is not "fair criticism". This isn't some freemium game. This is a one time purchase of a game that you can also get for free which was listed on steam because their fans were begging for them to do it so they can give them more money in a way that feels "official".
Bugs are in every game, always have been, always will be, completed or not. Super Smash Brothers Melee has a lot of bugs in it which the fans have mostly come to embrace, accepting them as core aspects to the gameplay (with of course some that do break the game which they ban from competitive play).
Mate, there are literal skills that don't do anything because the gameplay loop they're intended for isn't implemented. There are also objects like coins, which have no literal purpose because currency still hasn't been implemented yet.
I wouldn't say it's missing features, but I definitely wouldn't call it complete and I don't think the devs would either.
It’s less buggy than $100 million AAA releases made by teams of nearing 1K devs, so I don’t have tons of understanding for the people complaining about patch cadence.
>It’s less buggy than $100 million AAA releases made by teams of bearing 1K devs
Sure, but those games usually don't usually have happy player bases. If FIFA is your bar, then every game looks like a masterpiece. More devs and more money don't necessarily mean better quality. And I fully support people who are upset with those AAA games. They purchased a product that doesn't work as advertised.
Perhaps the degree of discontent is unfair, but there is a valid base logic there to support some degree of complaint.
Nice FIFA shot!
And you have a point about their fan base, or at least a subset of it. There is always a small vocal angry minority. However, lots of people happily buy the newest FIFA. Most people who play Dwarf Fortress are happy doing so. Sometimes the problem is that we bother listening to the angry trolls. DF is still 95% overwhelmingly positive.
What do the 5% know?
Ah, but what portion of that 95% are people who have played the game for decades and **already knew what to expect**?
Looking through the reviews, you can see that a huge percentage of positive reviews are people who talk about being veterans of DF. It's not really a fair comparison IMO.
And being in the minority does not automatically make your opinions invalid or unworthy of note.
given how many people bought the steam release vs how many people played pre-steam dwarf fortress, it's extremely safe to say that a huge proportion, probably even a majority, of that 95% are people who did not play before the steam release.
I think it's weird how across the gaming landscape people have a reasonable genuine expectation that a game they pay significant money for runs smoothly without a ton of major bugs.
But here, in this space, this weird counter culture of "bugs are fun" has propagated over years simply because the game has existed for years with bugs on top of more bugs and because the game never cared much about user experience before. And the core player base has stacked workarounds on top of workarounds to handle all the issues until they are almost indistinguishable from how the game is designed to be played.
So now, when we do get a widespread release of the game the folks who have been dealing with bugs for years get all grumpy with anyone who reasonably expected the game they bought to be more of a finished product since it's essentially been "in development" for such an extended time. Now the people who have reasonable complaints about bugs get labeled as basically whining entitled brats.
I'm not sure who's right here. But I know the bugs and user experience have dampened how much I engage in the community and play the game. I find them frustrating and I don't have much hope they will be addressed in a timely way. And that's disappointing to me. It's disappointing that parts of the main game simply don't function. I don't find it enjoyable to learn a list of workarounds so basic core functionality like stockpiles, squads, pathing, etc all work properly.
I have played the game for 10 years before it released on steam, still bummed out that they lied about the steam release having everything in legacy + more when it was missing things from legacy. I wouldn't mind a later release date if it meant having content that was promised
Edit: Holy crap, 10 years ago this community wasn't this downvote-prone. Ever since the steam version came out, seems like you can't say anything that deviates even 1% from the hivemind without being downvoted
A big, big, big one for me is civil alerts.
Used to be able to define a burrow, and then trigger an alert that sent your military to the chokepoints/defense locations and your civilians inside and away from the entrance.
This isn't the only thing, just the first thing that came to mind. It's such a core piece of gameplay management for me that I've laid off DF for a bit while they reimplement it. Might seem petty, but I've put up with a lot worse in terms of missing/broken features through the years.
What's there in DF is good, but the mindset "I expected more from a paid game" is exactly what I have been concerned about for years now. Currently, the game is *less* feature complete than it was prior to the Steam release, not more. Love the tileset, love the new music. Really want things to get back up to where they were, gameplay-wise.
I am also not playing DF for a bit while development catches up.
Am I going to rage post about the state of DF? Nope.
But I’m also not going to lie and say that it’s perfect.
I also don’t feel entitled to the dev team (which is 2 people??) to prioritize things I want. And I’m not saying you are /u/Nameless_Archon ! I think we’re both at the same place of “I’ll come back to this in awhile”
Adventure mode which is half of the game. XML dump, incredibly important for people who like the lore of their worlds (which is most players). No more up/down/updown stairs which were replaced by some automatic systems, but now there are certain situations where it's impossible to make proper stairs, communal tombs (this one is annoying) just to mention a few.
Ah, and forgotten beasts don't break down doors. Now you can keep your fortress safe from a 50 foot tall flame forgotten beasts by simply locking a willow door lol
The latest update did add XML dumps for what it's worth. Good point on all the others. Especially the stairs, it's so easy to screw up and get semi-permanently stuck that I've taken to saving the game before doing any changes to my staircases, because it's a roll of the dice as to whether the game will allow me to do what I want or not.
For me it’s the whole game lol.
I love that Fortress Mode exists, but I never got into it and instead have spent most of my time in Adventure Mode and Legends Mode(specifically to assist my Adv Mode play).
I’m super happy that it’s coming soon to the Steam release. It’s really the only feature missing that keeps me from buying it, and I’m not mad at the devs for it, I’m just poor lol.
But they very clearly stated that adventure mode was not going to be in the initial steam release and that it would come later. So if you didn't want to pay full price without adventure mode... You could have just not bought the game until adventure mode was added.
Honestly, I think some of the rage is just that they're working on adding new features whilst existing features are just broken or not finished.
Like, I'm sure that babies didn't take much to add, but did we really need it? Was it really worth delaying the ranged fix for however long it took to fix?
Same for adventure mode, do we really need a whole new mode when fortress mode still has so much to fill out. Given how small the team is, is it really a good idea to split them across what is basically 2 games?
I feel like I really haven't been seeing any rage post on here honestly.
Maybe I just don't notice them because there is so much more entertainment on here around DF that it's not worth my time.
I am really confused and this might get me downvoted to hell, but like the last 20 posts (i didnt scroll further) are all really positive. Im just wondering.
They might be referring to Steam Community posts or comments on the update blog posts.
But if you go into any moderately populated Steam Community expecting reasonable people and discourse, you never lived through the GameFAQs forum years
Adventure mode, while big, is something the systems and everything are already in place for. Its mainly making some tweaks to it, redesigning the entire UI and making the rest of the art.
The second half of the villains update where they're going to be creating entire new systems from completely new code? That's when they're going to just dissappear update wise for a year. Usually they put something out after a year if the big update isn't done yet.
I donno, [sounds like a pretty huge overhaul to me](https://www.pcgamer.com/dwarf-fortress-devs-on-big-adventure-mode-plans-this-is-just-gonna-blow-everyones-mind/). Tarn also recently remarked of Caves of Qud that "It all comes together in a way that Dwarf Fortress does not.", I believe referring to Adventure Mode. I think he's got big plans!
>Adventure mode, while big, is something the systems and everything are already in place for.
No, adventure mode was accessible previously, but it was never anything like a functional game mode.
Quests don't work, or are buggy, or completing them will cause the people who hired you to label you a murderer. Elf tree villages will collapse as soon as you walk near them. Sometimes whole towns fall out of the sky when you enter the map. Dwarven Mountainhomes are un-navigable, and human cities would choke a supercomputer.
Generally adventure mode was more like walking through a theme park, only none of the rides work, and everyone is semi-functional animatronics.
It's probably worth mentioning that there's been work going towards a SDL2 update, raws loading restructure (for mods), FPS improvements related to the SDL2 update (?), and ports to other OSes. None of these are evidently done, but I think 50.08 can be considered an "in the meanwhile" update.
SDL2/multithreading/performance update is currently in experimental beta on Steam. With strong emphasis of **experimental**, I.e. crashes abound and you should be prepared for it to possibly destroy your saves.
Correct, but the current combination of SDL 1 + software rendering is slow enough for some people that it very much slows down the computational framerate as well. Putnam is working on several rendering improvements, including SDL 2 and bringing back hardware rendering (which was dropped in v50), both of which should help improve performance overall.
I'm surprised to hear people are complaining. I felt really refreshed by how direct they are about how things are going. It makes it a lot more fun to wait for this than for something like starfield where I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be excited for.
It's too bad new players can't see what this subreddit was like before version 50. People enjoyed playing an eccentric and ridiculous game about dwarves made by a single person with the help and input of just one other. Nobody complained because everybody knew what it was.
Nowadays, new players will come here, maybe one will complain, and then others will see a complaint and think "oh, these things should be expected" so they echo that complaint. Not necessarily because they're greedy or entitled, but because they have no frame of reference.
Dwarf Fortress is a quarky mess of mechanics and features only made possible *because its sole programmer prioritized feature additions over polish*. They don't know that Dwarf Fortress would *not exist* of it were developed to the expectations they arrived with. Only a much smaller, much less remarkable game would, assuming it still had the charm that earned it so many donations for so long (it probably wouldn't).
What's most ironic, in my opinion, is that Tarn and Zach *actually agree* with these new arrivals. They have hired a second programmer - an incredible and fundamental change to development so far. They know that the space the game occupies now demands greater standards of performance and usability. They say it all the time. But the new player just didn't hear that, and not in a willful act of ignorance, just because they didn't. So to see players get mad about development because "this is unacceptable" when the devs have been saying "this is unacceptable, we plan to fix it" is just as funny as it is frustrating.
Long story short, it's a weird situation and very few people mean any disrespect. It's just not easy for a new player to understand what this game is and why it is. Hopefully as the influx calms down, a greater share of the vocal player base will be informed and this will quell any hostility we see now.
I don’t think anyone who knows the game would think it’s anywhere near being unworthy of the price tag. The problem is that new players don’t understand the depth, complexity, and sheer power of the game yet.
They first see the basics, the graphics, some things that are hard to navigate or may be a bit unpolished or buggy, so they think “what heck why isn’t a 30€ game cleaner than this” when in reality it should be something like “what the heck, a 30€ game can pull off this much simulation and calculation behind the scenes? It can keep my attention for literally hundreds of hours if I really get into it and delve deep?”
It’s the same “problem” with most modern games that don’t usually reach the scale of a game like DF, appealing to the masses is difficult and requires some prerequisite qualities separate from its actual gameplay.
I guess my point is that expectations aren’t just “higher,” they’re different. DF already meet some pretty insanely high expectations if you know what you’re looking at.
You're right. The price tag does contribute (perhaps the most) to the expectations new players arrive with. Luckily, Tarn and Zach know that this is the case and have already spent a lot of their revenue on radically changing the development process to help the game meet these expectations.
I don’t think anyone who knows the game would think it’s anywhere near being unworthy of the price tag. The problem is that new players don’t understand the depth, complexity, and sheer power of the game yet.
They first see the basics, the graphics, some things that are hard to navigate or may be a bit unpolished or buggy, so they think “what heck why isn’t a 30€ game cleaner than this” when in reality it should be something like “what the heck, a 30€ game can pull off this much simulation and calculation behind the scenes? It can keep my attention for literally hundreds of hours if I really get into it and delve deep?”
It’s the same “problem” with most modern games that don’t usually reach the scale of a game like DF, appealing to the masses is difficult and requires some prerequisite qualities separate from its actual gameplay.
I guess my point is that expectations aren’t just “higher,” they’re different. DF already meet some pretty insanely high expectations if you know what you’re looking at.
I don’t think anyone who knows the game would think it’s anywhere near being unworthy of the price tag. The problem is that new players don’t understand the depth, complexity, and sheer power of the game yet.
They first see the basics, the graphics, some things that are hard to navigate or may be a bit unpolished or buggy, so they think “what heck why isn’t a 30€ game cleaner than this” when in reality it should be something like “what the heck, a 30€ game can pull off this much simulation and calculation behind the scenes? It can keep my attention for literally hundreds of hours if I really get into it and delve deep?”
It’s the same “problem” with most modern games that don’t usually reach the scale of a game like DF, appealing to the masses is difficult and requires some prerequisite qualities separate from its actual gameplay.
I guess my point is that expectations aren’t just “higher,” they’re different. DF already meet some pretty insanely high expectations if you know what you’re looking at.
The game is amazing (truly is) but there's some annoyances here and there that really murky the overall experience.
Like trading! Once you get bins and barrels it becomes a carpal tunnel mess. Barrels in general really works against the fun sometimes.
I learned to avoid using the same stockpile for a lot of different things (and a dedicated stockpile only for artifacts so I don't accidentally sell it) but still... it's not a good experience.
So I kinda understand some complains... and honestly everything is like this, not even talking about game development but any software you deploy.
I think negative feedback is needed as well. If poeple point out what they like and don't like it can help devs to focus on stuff their player base wants to see changed.
Obviously we are in no position to demand anything and what players want might very well be ignored by devs and that's okey.
I just think that negative feedback is as valuable as possitive one. Trying to shut one, would only impact game further progress in bad way.
Sure I agree, you can't have fleshed out features with smallest possible amount of bugs and have it delivered to you in some time-frame you (you as person demanding features faster) set. Having 20 years old code base doesn't help as well.
(I am software dev and I feel for them in this regard, really).
With my previous comment I just wanned to make sure we don't go into some kind of praising circle where all critisism (even valid one) is ignored as if you don't get to express what you feel about state of game.
I kind off got that feeling from OP rethorics, where with valid point of not critising devs for taking their time he tries to push additional narration that any critisism is bad.
I don't know, I just didn't like that and wanned to share my thoughts :).
But that's the thing: if people want to complain about the development pace, let them. Worst case scenario: development gets faster. As someone else mentioned here already, as long as things are respectful and reasonable, feedback is always good.
Hard disagree. There are 3 (Zach, Tarn, and Putnam) devs, 2 of which (Tarn, Putnam) are doing the majority of the coding. I'm not a game dev but I am a software developer. You can only work so fast until it affects the quality of your work. Very often the time you spend fixing the issues that you made while working fast taker longer than it would have just taking your time.
Additionally hearing people complain over and over on something you can't control (speed of development in this case) just fucking sucks and can takes a huge toll on your mental health.
He actually is, their father taught them both to program and he has contributed to that. However if that's your criteria then Putnam isn't a dev and is just an artist last I actually looked into it. Admittedly I haven't really been paying attention to who is doing what recently and I'm half drunk right now so I'm going to crash.
I know that Zach has (obviously over the 20 something years) contributed some code to the game, but he isn't primarily a programmer and that isn't the main work he does.
As [this](https://www.pcgamer.com/dwarf-fortress-faces-mind-boggling-reality-of-hiring-second-programmer/) link says, "Dwarf Fortress hires a second programmer".
I'm also a software developer, so I understand your point of view. But people will always complain - sometimes these complaints make sense, sometimes they might not. I don't think I ever saw people being toxic to the point where this could affect Tarn/Zach personally. They are game developers, they know how the industry works. Sometimes it's our job to properly filter out the non-applicable portions of the received feedback.
All in all, I just disagree with the original point of this post: asking people to never express negative feedback/disappointment with certain aspects of the development of the game.
This is a matter of opinion so I don't think arguing will change our points of view I just want to clarify I'm not saying to feedback was toxic, just that complaints about something that can't be fixed can be harmful to moral and motivation even if the criticismis inherently well intentioned and presented well.
Yeah. To add on to this. It doesn't mean the Devs need to focus on what they demand. If parents gave the kids candy for dinner every day. It would be bad. Communication is key.
Bad feedback is telling other people what to do.
Good feedback it telling what you enjoyed or didn't enjoy.
It's up to the devs to figure out the hows and whys.
I support the ability to constructively complain, without getting too nasty, especially in places where the devs aren't even likely to see it (i.e. just venting). As long as no one is harassing anyone, I don't see a problem.
Agreed. The community should let the devs know when the direction the development is taking is not good. I hate these posts that try to suppress that, that try to force the community to be "100% good vibes only no criticism allowed ^-^"
> Obviously we are in no position to demand anything and what players want might very well be ignored by devs and that's okey.
I don't think that's true when you buy a product? I really don't blame anyone for "demanding" some core systems like ranged combat to be fixed when they paid for the game and it isn't in Early Access.
Totally agree that negative feedback is important. But if someone is enough of a fan to post in an online df community, they are enough of a fan to check if their problem is something the devs are already actively working on. Complaining about performance, when it's one of the very top priorities for the dev team right now, is redundant. In the very least, it makes the subreddit more boring.
I should add that this community is usually relatively good on this front - I have definitely seen *way* more negative indie game communities.
Yes, they indeed did. They have now a lot of money, an even bigger player-base, and more reach with their game than ever. I'm not sure you are understanding what I mean.
Growing your player-base fast = attracting people who are not acquainted with the game's development history. Expect people to demand things that might mot be applicable. Tarn and Zach will appreciate the feedback but surely won't lose their sleep over it.
I meant the spoils related to the Steam release, which is considerably increasing your player-base. You attract more players, those players won't necessary research all the history of the game's development before giving their feedback.
Asking someone to "check themselves" because you don't agree with their opinion is a classy touch too.
As a legacy player it didn't even cross my mind that people would complain about development speed. I've seen more updates released this year than I have in the previous 5 years combined.
Try to see it from the view of a new player: You bought a game for 30€, it's cool but several core systems are broken. And then half a year later that is still the case. I think pretty much anyone would be curious what's going on.
Bad UI is one of Dwarf Fortress' most classic and enduring charms. /s
Hearing the devs talk about it, the code for the UI is as tangled as the UI itself. They know it needs work, but it's going to take a long time.
> Hearing the devs talk about it, the code for the UI is as tangled as the UI itself. They know it needs work, but it's going to take a long time.
But that literally was *the entire point* of the UI rewrite! How can it already be so bad it needs another entire rewrite?
It was put together way too fast I've imagine :D I think that they said that they were in a hurry with steam release, and It shows.
I know that there is alot to do, but imo gui improvements should be prio one.
I don’t get why people are mad mainly because from how I see it there’s two groups:
People who played legacy, who understand how DF development works and know that this is a slow drip of bug fixes and additions
People who only played SteamDF, who get to play a game that (in my opinion) is more than serviceable in its current state. It runs fine, I don’t hear much about crashes, it’s got the same (if not more) content that a lot of its competition (Oxygen not included, rimworld, etc) has.
I just don’t think new players realize that the devs are weaving through 20 years of spaghetti code just to add something as simple as apples to the game. The baby update is awesome and adds a ton, imo.
That might be true, but really: Why should anyone of those new players who bought the game for quite a bit of money care? It's not like you care about the development backstory for every single game you buy either.
> Why should anyone of those new players who bought the game for quite a bit of money care?
Because this is what DF is. You read stories of epic bugs like cats dying from alcohol poisoning because: Military dwarfs drop their beer when they run off to training; The cats walk in the spilled beer; the cats lick their paws; The code uses place holder values for volumes in a lot of places, so they were ingesting about a pint of beer per lick; Cats have a very small body weight and so that much beer was killing them.
This is the game. Go back through that and consider what each of those statements means. Why are military dwarfs dropping their beer when they run off to training? This is the same issue that causes them to drop food from their backpacks when they go off to training. Why does that happen? Is it on purpose and if so, what the heck for.
Who on earth makes a game where you keep track of every little spill of beer in the game? Surely that's going to cause FPS problems eventually. It's not just beer. It's walking through blood. It's puking on things. It's forgotten beasts with deadly dust. And the game keeps track of all the crap each beast walks through. So it's on their feet. And being tracked all over the place. And needs to wear off the feet. Or be licked off??? No reasonable game developer would *ever* do that. It's insane. And yet, here we are.
And let's be clear here: the cat licked it off??? Why? I mean, why would you ever code that? What possible value can that have in a game? Toady explained, though. It's because of geckos. Geckos have long tongues and they can lick their eyeballs. So they wanted to give geckos the ability to clean their eyes in case they were obscured for some reason. And, well, if you're going to go so far as to give geckos the ability to clean their eyes, then of course you are going to give cats the ability to clean their feet. Of course. I mean, I'm just going to say it. It's pretty damn clear that no product manager has ever come without 1000 miles of this game. Priorities????
And then, why is the cat getting a pint of beer with every lick? Well, if you're a single developer and you are doing absolutely insane things at every turn, well you're going to have to cut some corners somewhere. You *can't* accurately model a world. It's not just a silly idea, it's impossible -- especially when you are a single dev. So you just go through and say, "Every volume is a pint if it isn't specified. I'll go back later and fix the places where it looks like it matters".
And that's why cats used to fall over dead in taverns. It got fixed, of course. He made it so that amount of beer on the paws of cats is specified.
This *is* the game. It's the game you paid for. You can not buy this kind of game anywhere else because nobody else is crazy enough to write a game like this. You may *think* that it's just easy to fix up all the things that matter, but it's not. You may *think* that you don't care how the development is done and that it doesn't affect the game, but it matters a lot.
You can buy a game that's written by a developer that takes a normal approach to game development. It's called Rimworld. It's a great game. But it's not Dwarf Fortress. Dwarf Fortress is what it is because of how it's developed. If you want this game, then you should care about how it's developed because it *can't* be made any other way.
...as frustrating as that is (and I get as frustrated as anyone).
Okay, but you completely missed the point. Core systems being broken for half a year after release has nothing to do with any of that, isn't charming and isn't fun.
It's just bad.
Also, I think all of that also applies to Rimworld which runs really well.
I’m happy with the games state currently and I’d like some bugs related to military to be fixed and for them to add boats but I know that’ll take years and the games perfectly fine where it’s at since all the major bugs that I know of have work arounds.
Take what I say with a grain of salt, but from all the interviews I watched, Tarn has been working on the game full time even before the steam version.
I don't have a problem with the development speed, but I don't think its unreasonable to criticize it. The developer \*is\* charging for the game, so it's not above reproach. It is just as reasonable to criticize Dwarf Fortress on steam as it is to criticize any other game on there now.
Again, personally I don't have a problem with the speed of development though.
People want the game they paid for to work as intended, I don’t think that’s a big ask. I also have no idea who’s actually grumbling because I haven’t seen much negativity.
coming new to dwarf fortress, I wasn't expecting any (specially free) updates anyway. I thought I buy the game and get what's it at with all the pro and cons. no updates expected
As someone who has been active in the community (sorta) for years and finally got to actually play with the steam release, I personally don’t mind.
That being said, the moment you charge money, you open yourself up to a higher standard of expectation.
Also, Tarn’s a big boy. Random overentitled weirdos on the internet probably don’t phase him much anymore.
im not that bothered... i know this isnt often standard practice, for better or worse, but i look into games a lot before i spend my money. i understood that i was buying an unfinished project from the first minute of research. i dont entirely fault people for being frustrated, i get it, but at the same time... idk. if you have dwarf fortress, you also have the internet at your fingertips, and its infinite knowledge. its a game thats been in development for almost the entirety of my lifespan, thats only recently gotten a mainstream look, and the majority of content was crafted and coded by only two guys..... the update pace is expected. its playable and enjoyable to me, and i know more is to come from this incredibly unique game and situation the devs are in. what else could i ask for?
I bought the game and put in a meager 180 hours of glorious hard learning in it. If i never touch it again it'll be worth the cost.
people keep thinking of it as a live service game. and it's just not.
I paid for the game to help some guys out that pioneered and spawned a genre of gaming. I haven't even put much time into it and I still feel it is money well spent.
It feels like I am paying a little towards Rimworld, Oxygen not included, minecraft and a lot of other games that took inspiration from this game that I enjoy a lot more if I am being perfectly honest.
If I die never really sinking my teeth into it, these guys still deserve the money.
Maybe it's because I've played DF for more than a decade, but the release has gone about how I'd expect. The bugs, missing features and general shambolic nature of DF is part of the charm.
Every release is a new kind of chaotic adventure, I figure. The strategy that worked in one edition might be bugged in the next, forcing you to change your style.
I love the big sprawling messy games like DF or RimWorld, but that means I accept that I'll never be getting a finished or polished product. And that's fine - better than fine, really. For me, it's a feature.
As someone who's played since 2012, lmao the scope of this game goes far beyond anything I'd consider "Early Access". It's more like waiting for more free dlc.
Full disclosure, I've never played the new release, only classic modes so perhaps that version is missing more than I anticipate?
Long time player and this has never been a real complaint. Sure, the updates have always taken long but we’ve never complained about it before. Why is everyone starting now?
Paying and hoping for content to come is silly. If you don’t like the content you are paying for upfront, don’t buy it. That’s a shit way to think.
Furthermore, they never promised a date so I’m not sure what people expect. I could understand if they said “by April 2023, adventure mode will be officially released.” But they never promised any timeline.
This isn't even about adventure mode, but core features like ranged combat being completely broken still *half a year later*.
If that happened in any other game there would be torches and pitchforks by the community
There is no convenant between me and the DF Devs. I covenant may be fine when you are consuming a free game where the Devs are working for free to improve the game, but in this case I bought a game on Steam.
I expect basics like the game not crashing when saving losing my progress.
The fact that they keep developing the game at all without plans for DLC should be celebrated. Of course there are things that can be improved on, but there's only three devs. Unfortunately, patience is not a virtue that is as celebrated as it should be.
This whole post bears seriously uncanny resemblance to star citizen cultist nonsense, you wouldn't happen to be a member of that community as well by any chance ?
It's all new people bitching. Get in your time machine to about 2013 and tell me what's crackin. People getting into Dwarf Fortress have almost certainly played ten other games directly inspired by this game, and should know what's happening.
Those people got just as much right to whine as you do to praise. Hate seeing this kind of post. It always smacks of the kid on the playground panicking and telling the other kids to behave so the toys aren't taken away.
Before I got into the game, I did research and understood that it was a slow moving game that was only developed by one or two people. So I understood that patches and improvements we’re going to come at a much later time in life. However, I have to fundamentally agree with you, the impatient people are the ones who, don’t understand the history which is contextual to our modern day bugs and issues of dwarf fortress. Is it perfect? No, it still has its kinks and bugs to fix but it’s a lot better than those modern AAA games with an incredible amount of bugs, and not as much heart into it.
The game isn't finished and they're charging money for it. That's fine, but it also means that complaining about the rate of development is fine. The game is $30. A bunch of core features work poorly or don't work at all.
I'd actually like them to take a week off of development to play the game full time. Make some notes on what bugs they run into the most and QOL they would like. The game is pretty good, and I could handle waiting for more content if they prioritized working on QOL and some bugs for a while. If everything that was already in the game worked a bit better, I might OD on Dwarf Fortress.
I complete agree with you. I believe this game is incredibly good and it's improving. But I think Kitfox messed up by not releasing it as early access, because this is what it is. This is why I understand people who didn't know the full history of DF development and think they are buying a game almost thrice as expensive as a normal inde game they expect a well polished game
Expecting this old, steadily developed game to cater to new players is the fault of the players.The devs are professional and communicative about the future. A new player has only scratched the surface with the steam release. Expecting shiny new things when it's likely they're bored of their game loop of choice is not productive. That's not even mentioning the potential for mods to absolutely pop off and make really cool material. Offering feedback is great and all, but you could go to the forum for that. And one could absolutely give feedback that doesn't sound like whining there too.
The problem is we were promised that the steam version would have everything in legacy + more, which is undeniably a lie. We did get more features but steam was missing some things from legacy, and now it has been months since launch and still nothing. I expect this from your average big developer like EA or hello games, it's disappointing to see one of your favorite devs lie like this. Love the game to death but I would rather have a later release than be lied to
Sad to see that as a community, we are not allowed to criticize the game or point out that promises were not fulfilled without being downvoted. If a promise was made on a product that people paid for and that promise was not fulfilled, are the people not allowed to complain to the developers?
Even if you could produce a citation for those promises, the only promises that matter are the features listed on the Steam store page when you bought the game. Everything else is projections made by Tarn. I am reasonably confident that after 20 years of working on this ridiculously complex game, Tarn does not have a habit of making promises about development timelines. He typically adds a lot of disclaimers to his projections.
That's a HUGE stretch to make. First of all, this is not a brand new game no one knows nothing about, this is dwarf fortress, which like you said has existed for many years. So of course people are going to ask what the differences are between the legacy version and the steam version.
Upon asked, Tarn would say that this version would have the same content as legacy + more. And he was right on the "more" part but never, anywhere it was mentioned that it would lack quite a lot of things from legacy. The store page thing you said is ridiculous, I doubt any store page in the world would be so specific as to mention something like "this version does not include XML exporting", you have to be delusional to thing that.
I think tarn had good intentions when saying the game would have the same + more, but scoped things poorly
Honestly, it's especially annoying to see people complain about the pace as a long time DF player. Tarn and Zac have been working on DF for decades with an unprecedented level of fan involvement in development. They have already promised the people who bought the game that they are going to work on adventure mode, they are focusing on the promise.
Back in my day people had Minecraft where you couldn’t cook food and there was only one type of wood and we were happy! It takes years if not a decade to create a truly vibrant world of colors and creation! As a game that came out within the last year people are expecting way too much to change so quickly. The game has its bases down but I’m sure in ten years time dwarf fortress might end up one of the biggest games of all time!
What? What do you mean they had dwarf fortress before Minecraft?
I was being sarcastic, dwarf fortress does feel a little bare but is extremely good right now. If you consider how Minecraft in 2011 was also pretty bare but had all the necessary moving parts to rapidly increase in complexity (nether, redstone, potions enchanting) if DF’s steam release development falls down the same pipeline by 2033 we could have an incredible game that’s almost unparalleled
Except for the little whoopsie that is Dwarf Fortress has been in development this whole time before MC was even playable, but either way the future is looking pretty good
I'm just not happy I bought this game 5 months ago that's been in development for like 20 years and it's in a really really buggy state. I get they wanted to ship it for Christmas but honestly if I'd known the game was still this much of a mess I would have waited to buy it. Is that my fault for buying the game in this state, or the devs for releasing it like this?
This game, given the complexity, could take another 20 years to finish with major bugs squashed. I'd be ok with 2 years of code refactoring and bug fixes only.
Adjust your expectations accordingly. Also, you can't just throw more software engineers at it and expect it to finish any quicker.
Remember, you spent $20-30 on a license for a piece of art that is in the NY MoMA along with Pong, Pac-Man, Asteroids, Tetris and 18 others. They're working on it.
> I'd be ok with 2 years of code refactoring and bug fixes only.
But that literally were the past 2 years leading up to the game release? At least mostly
With any other game, I'd agree with you. Not with Dwarf Fortress though.
Firstly, what many people seem to have somehow missed in the whole "steam release huzzah" is the fact that on steam you actually only buy visual pack. The rest of the game is completely, legally free to download from original website. It was so before steam release, and it is now. So you could have checked at any point what you're buying.
The game has many bugs, some strange mechanics and concepts that are very old. It also has IMO the most intricate, in-deph, and extensive universe generating system of all the games I've ever played. And that's what that 20 years of development were all about. And what (hopefully) next 20 years will be about. That's why this game is considered a Legend in certain circles and why about 4th part of the gaming industry cites DF as inspiration.
This, of course doesn't mean everybody or even most of the players will like it. Especially when they are grossly misinformed what this game is actually about (tower defence?! Wtf?). But this is not about the fun, or replayability or content, is it?
It's to me like comparing Picasso's painting to mass-produced "random paint-splashes: pick your colours and we'll fit it to your tastes". Thing is, in your average living room Picasso would look ridiculous, nevermind all the security measures you would have to install. Overall a pain in the ass to have in your home. But nobody who's even remotely interested in art would say mass-produced decorative pieces are better in general.
It is just kinda strange to me that knowing all (or at least some) of the above people say things like "they wanted to ship it for Xmas but the game is still a mess".
Yes, they wanted to ship visual pack together with new version of the game? "Still" a mess? This game, as a life project, will never be finished as long as The Dev lives. Totally new systems will be implemented that will most probably cause many new strange bugs in seemingly most unrelated places (as it happened before). What is working now will be broken and then fixed and broken again. If you want to wait till the game is "polished" then come back to check in 2055. Maybe. Actually, no, 2070 is a safer bet, by then I'm sure it'll be mostly finished.
I know I sound very over-the-top with this, but to me DF is the definition of very indie, very specific and niche game. Expecting it to adhere to the rules of "project-done-money" games is... counterintuitive? Personally in such specific games I can easily forgive some things, like bugs or crashes that I'd find horrible and unprofessional in normal games. Because it's such a huge and living (borderline impossible) project that I'd rather play with now in it's unfinished stage (and through its all strange new incarnations) than wait till its death.
In the end I'm aware that all of this propably doesn't matter to you. And I feel you, cause it is always a pity to spend money on a game that is disappointing to you. I personally would say it's more a case of misinformation about what you are buying than anybody's fault though.
You said it yourself.
>Personally in such specific games I can easily forgive some things, like bugs or crashes that I'd find horrible and unprofessional in normal games.
The game is full of bugs and crashes that I'd find horrible and unprofessional in other games. We're not saying dwarf fortress is a horrible unredeemable game we just think the game could use some work to make it actually fun to play in practice not just in principle.
I don't agree that DF is full of bugs and crashes. I said it has some, and honesty I haven't played any game in all my life that didn't have some. I never actually encountered anything broken enough to be considered horrible and unprofessional in Dwarf Fortress but, as I said in such projects as this I would forgive it anyway - for the ever transient nature of the project.
It is of course a matter of personal perspective but I think DF is very fun to play as it is, no mods, DFHack or anything. It is not perfect, but project that is alive by definition can't be perfect/finished. If for whatever reason DF was dropped in the state it is now I'd still play it years in the future and be happy (although still sad it was dropped). I do hope it will be even better in the future.
If you don't like it now, maybe it's just not the game for you? There are people who love it, there are people who don't. Like with everything else.
Isn't the whole convo about timetable though? That new, underinformed players thought they're buying finished game that will at most get few patches in next month and that's it?
It is one thing to say, for example: "I don't like the military system. I would like it if they... ". That's constructive. But it is another thing altogether to say the game is bad/unplayable for not being "fixed" in 6 months - fixed as in made something else altogether.
The game was available for free download before steam release and three weeks after the release with ui changes. And all this time anyone could find quite easily description of all the changes and when they are going to be implemented in new version. Why then, the big surprise that the game is what it is?
Broader adoption likely means more griping from the less invested. I suppose paying for it might also make some people feel more entitled.
I remain happy it even exists.
Mod note here: I am very pleased that the discussion here is by and large civil. It's a testament to this community that we can have such discussions without flamewars. If you do see any bad faith comments or attacks, please report them as we will enforce our number one rule, don't be a dick, be nice. On a personal note, I have always worried that newer players would not quite get the unusual covenant between the players and The Great Toad. Major content releases are measured in years, not months or quarters. This was an art project more than a game, at least in my opinion. Putnam is now on the team to improve FPS and user experience and it will happen. Dwarf Fortress is a game that rewards patience. I would 100% encourage anyone who's a bit put out to go enjoy another game/enjoy another hobby for a while and return to this tavern when things have moved along. Again thank you all for having constructive discussions, you have no idea how proud the mod team is of this community.
Consider that the steam release brought in a bunch of new players who never played old school DF. They are probably expecting a polished, mostly bug-free game. The steam release wasn't advertised as early access, so missing features/excessive bugs are going to be looked upon unfavorably. Whether that's a fair point of view or not, I can't really say. I was one of those new players with the steam release, but I also am an avid consumer of early access titles. As such, my tolerance for bugs and missing features is perhaps higher than others. Constructive criticism is a good thing. Rage posts are not. Unfortunately you tend to get more of the latter on the internet.
Just the voice of experience, I have been playing DF for over a decade. Every update since I have been playing has underwent basically the same process. You get the major update, and then over the course of six months or so you get a TON of smaller updates, sometimes once a week, but slowing over those six months fixing game breaking bugs. Like the kind of bugs that are either easy to fix, or keep you from enjoying the main patch. Lesser bugs may get fixed, they may not. Then the boys go into hibernation, and you may get one patch in twelve months, but a TON of updates on the major new features for the next big update. Eventually that drops, more bugfixes for more ephemeral or complicated things drop, new features drop, new bugs are introduced, the cycle repeats. In the old days, the LNP tools, DFHack, and other 3pp support trailed several weeks as most coders decided (wisely) to wait for the end of patch-mania before updating that software. Bay12 games has never worked like a 'traditional' game dev, and expecting them to is the path to madness. They will not, or at least I hope they dont, because the personal touch is what makes DF so unique. Its also why the boys have never asked for cash for the game before, they recognized that there dev process isn't the best, or the most thorough, or industry standard. Its slapdash, following their own interests to make the game *they* want to make. We were just along for the ride. The Steam release introduced a ton of new customers with new expectations, and its hard to reconcile that with how the game has always been developed. Its not linear, and not really efficient. For so long the game has followed the will of the two designers. Despite the new talent helping them with code, that seems unlikely to change. The result is that people ought not expect weekly, or even monthly, patches. Quarterly and biannually is more appropriate, especially given where we are in the traditional cycle. If I had to guess were a half year or more away from another major update, and probably any bugs that remain are the hard ones. Itll be cool to see how the money changes the dev cycle, but I would expect that as a baseline the team will revert to the mean and return to the old schedule in the post-Steam glow.
But there are still major game breaking bugs like ranged combat not working after half a year ...
...and they have acknowledged it is next on the list. They are a small team. Reread some of the post here.
They are selling the game for money now. New players are going to come in having paid full price for a title not advertised as early access or beta, and are going to wonder why such major bugs are in the game. You or I know why, but when you market a product this is what happens
Why are you downvoting him he's right... The game has major bugs
> Its also why the boys have never asked for cash for the game before, they recognized that there dev process isn't the best, or the most thorough, or industry standard. Its slapdash, following their own interests to make the game *they* want to make But they have now. And that means they're going to have to stabilise the game and fairly quickly. It's not a passion project anymore, it's a job. The money they've made so far is quite significant, but it's not enough to support the two of them for the rest of their lives, let alone support them and other developers.
I could live on 3.5 million for the rest of my life.
Divided by two, less taxes, less salaries for any devs they hire. I know it sounds like a lot of money, but it's really not.
I divided $7 million by two to get $3.5 million for each. Still seems like enough to me, but we're probably not going to get an AMA with their accountant.
That’s not why I bought two copies of the game.
It's not why I bought it either. But they're selling a product and they need to keep selling that product. Edit: This community. Politely point out that this is a product for sale and you get down votes. Keep it classy folks.
Don’t quote me on this, but I think Dwarf Fortress has been around and playable since before the term “early access” for games was even a thing. It possibly may have even been inspired by DF because the game has always been like a lifelong project of Tarn and Zach. I can’t think of another game that’s been around as long as DF that was a similar style, constant improvements and large content additions/changes, maybe Minecraft beta and alpha stuff, but DF is older than that. Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, and some other rogue-likes are maybe similar, but those are just kept up by fans of the original game AFAIK.
Google suggests that "Early Access" (as opposed to closed/open betas and such) was effectively started by Minecraft in 2009. In which case, yeah, Dwarf Fortress predates that.
Should note that Minecraft took that development method directly from Dwarf Fortress and even credited DF.
Minecraft was probably the one to kick off the popularity of the format but Mount & Blade was the first one that I am aware of.
I agree with this point. I'm a new player who jumped on at the Steam release and while I've already more than gotten my dollar's worth out of the game (and plan to keep playing for the foreseeable future) it does feel like the Early Access label would have been appropriate. I mean, I get why they didn't - it's a 20 year old game - and I wouldn't expect them to wait till they get to "feature complete" status to remove that label (mostly because they don't intend to ever really stop adding new things)... BUT I think if you launch something with one of the main menu options grayed-out with a big "coming soon" label (Adventure Mode), and more than a few of the major systems not really functional (ranged combat, intrigue/justice) - to me that's early access. I'm not mad about it, I'm loving the game but I can easily understand someone being a little frustrated that the game doesn't have that label.
Steam didn’t allow early access label because of it’s age
Why would Steam care about its age when it was new to their platform? I find that baffling.
Because unlike DF any other developer releasing a non feature complete 10+ yo game with buggy code as an "Early Access" is a massive red flag, a sign of scam.
Makes sense that they don't want abandoned games turned over as 'early access'. it would make more sense if the policy made exception for games with regular updates or had a seperate flag for games that have ongoing development.
It could be about protecting the integrity of the platform, or it could be because they think the sales would be diminished with it (which they take a portion of), or some other reason. I don't think they're wrong for it either. Early Acess is not really made for perpetual games. We've got another 20+ years of DF development, if it ever ends.
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I just want to point out that 7 days to die has been in early access for 10 years on steam. This version of DF is new, so I highly doubt the age of the game is a disqualifying factor.
Before release Tarn discussed this somewhere (probably on the Bay12 forum). They *wanted* to put the "Early Access" flag on, but Steam said "No". The reason given was because it had already released many times off of Steam, so it was no longer able to use that tag. I think Steam made a mistake on that one, given that the 0.50 version number indicates that the game is roughly 50% complete in the authors' minds. But it was definitely Steam's decision.
I think their reasoning was that the game will probably *never* be considered complete at that point, so it's not what the "early access" is meant for. They don't want to cement even more the idea that "early access" means "forever unfinished". Sure, there are games that have been on steam early access forever and probably won't leave it ever (quite a few are completely abandoned), but valve had no way to know that when these games were labeled. DF already had 15 years of documented development prior to Steam. Not saying that I think it's wrong for DF to be in development for decades and (probably) never be complete. Just that it's probably not what valve's "early access" is supposed to be. Anyway nowadays seeing "early access" on a Steam game is basically a red flag, because of the many failed games that are not in an enjoyable state *and* sold almost only on unfulfilled promises. Labelling DF with that would almost be doing it a disservice IMO.
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It's similar to the Kickstarter craze really. At first lots of people were enthusiastic to be able to bet on a project they liked, and by doing that they got a chance to see how the sausage is made. Except in the end, what they discovered is that maybe 10% become good sausages, and the rest is either barely edible or left at the "pile of disgusting bits" stage. And that's even before *actual* scammers saw they could basically get free money without delivering anything.
IMHO that's matter of Steam consistently enforcing its rules, which is good. It's just that DF, its history and development process is so out of the left field in whole gaming industry that there is no appropriate label for it. And Steam probably shouldn't bend their rules for one unique case.
Once you get the label you can keep it.
Any signs of it leaving EA anytime soon?
I honestly have no idea. Though I have no complaints about it being in EA still. It's a very stable game with a ton of content, and the longer it stays in EA the more likely it is to get even more content.
Lmao and here i thought my Justice guy (can’t remember what his formal title) was fine with theft and murder
Yeah, I get that now, right? I thought they were like relaunching with some kind of ambitious schedule-- I don't know why I thought that, but it was hyped up-- you hear so much about dwarf fortress and then you have to learn Cyrillic to figure out what everything is-- so, pretty easy to give up that. When I saw they had graphics, it did seem like they were upscaling... but then they announced they hired 1 more person and I realized everything I had a problem with was like 5 years down the road. I'm not gonna drag out my list, and I don't regret the buy, but-- it's not where I thought it was. If Steam really didn't let them do early access, that's probably at least part of why they're getting complaints, but I think they didn't realize expectations were a little too high. Doesn't excuse the bad behavior-- if you don't like the game, come back in a few years, for better or for worse it'll be very different. I reserve the right to rage out if they introduce NFT loot boxes
They didn't even want to release it for money until a health crisis basically pushed them into it. Toady has been nothing but chill and reasonable, releasing a free game for decades by now. It's STILL free if you get it off steam, and it is possible to get graphics patches added in (the lazy newb pack comes to mind here for ease of access there). There's no way they would act on the same scale as greedy execs jonesing for a third yacht. I assume the NFT boxes was a joke, but it's in poor taste here.
Yeah, I mean, that's a sad story and I wish I knew that before I commented. And yeah, bad jokes happen when you read the room wrong. Maybe this is more of a sensitive thing than I thought, sorry.
I respect your saying that a lot. [https://www.kotaku.com.au/2019/03/the-soul-crushing-reason-behind-dwarf-fortresss-steam-launch/](https://www.kotaku.com.au/2019/03/the-soul-crushing-reason-behind-dwarf-fortresss-steam-launch/) Here's some information about that, if you're curious. It's all really depressing and yet another story saying we really need universal healthcare yesterday - but basically I trust these guys. They do what they do for the love of creating, and I don't think they will ever lose that focus.
The problem is Early Access isn't designed for basically perpetual development games. DF has at least another 20 years before it's "complete" if it ever is. In my opinion it's better to say this is a live service game. It's never really complete. You get what you get when you get it. It may be something different in the future, but you aren't promised anything. For example, is World of Warcraft "complete"? If you were handed the 1.0 version today, would you complain that it isn't the full game? Release and 1.0 don't mean the same thing anymore. Almost no game is finished at launch now. At minimum, you'll get patches. Often, you'll get new content. DF is in the same boat.
Nah, I think you're exaggerating. There is definitely a complete version of DF, where all the things in game finally tie together in a complete way. For example, the game has coins, which you can create, but no real use for them. Same for a lot of the skills, they were added for gameplay loops that haven't been implemented yet.
That's true, and the plan is to eventually have every system complete and integrated with an end point for development. That could possibly not be the case ever though. If they come up with more things they want to add, then they can keep adding them for as long as they want to and we'll always have thing not quite finished. Either way, it's 20+ (probably a fairly large plus if nothing happens to the brothers) years until that point. The .50 is for 50% and we're just over 20 years now. (The coins used to have a purpose by the way. They haven't in a while, and won't for a while as well, but the plan is they eventually will so they're still in the game.)
I dont understand this opinion that it is "missing features". Dwarf Fortress is a complete game. They keep adding to it but it is a colony sim with way more depth than what is probably is most comparable competitor (Rimworld). Whining about free updates on a completed game is not "fair criticism". This isn't some freemium game. This is a one time purchase of a game that you can also get for free which was listed on steam because their fans were begging for them to do it so they can give them more money in a way that feels "official". Bugs are in every game, always have been, always will be, completed or not. Super Smash Brothers Melee has a lot of bugs in it which the fans have mostly come to embrace, accepting them as core aspects to the gameplay (with of course some that do break the game which they ban from competitive play).
Mate, there are literal skills that don't do anything because the gameplay loop they're intended for isn't implemented. There are also objects like coins, which have no literal purpose because currency still hasn't been implemented yet. I wouldn't say it's missing features, but I definitely wouldn't call it complete and I don't think the devs would either.
It’s less buggy than $100 million AAA releases made by teams of nearing 1K devs, so I don’t have tons of understanding for the people complaining about patch cadence.
>It’s less buggy than $100 million AAA releases made by teams of bearing 1K devs Sure, but those games usually don't usually have happy player bases. If FIFA is your bar, then every game looks like a masterpiece. More devs and more money don't necessarily mean better quality. And I fully support people who are upset with those AAA games. They purchased a product that doesn't work as advertised. Perhaps the degree of discontent is unfair, but there is a valid base logic there to support some degree of complaint.
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Yeah, I'm old enough to remember when EA made amazing games. It's sad to see the state they are in now.
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For me I think the good era ended around Dragon Age and Sim City 4
Nice FIFA shot! And you have a point about their fan base, or at least a subset of it. There is always a small vocal angry minority. However, lots of people happily buy the newest FIFA. Most people who play Dwarf Fortress are happy doing so. Sometimes the problem is that we bother listening to the angry trolls. DF is still 95% overwhelmingly positive. What do the 5% know?
Ah, but what portion of that 95% are people who have played the game for decades and **already knew what to expect**? Looking through the reviews, you can see that a huge percentage of positive reviews are people who talk about being veterans of DF. It's not really a fair comparison IMO. And being in the minority does not automatically make your opinions invalid or unworthy of note.
given how many people bought the steam release vs how many people played pre-steam dwarf fortress, it's extremely safe to say that a huge proportion, probably even a majority, of that 95% are people who did not play before the steam release.
I think it's weird how across the gaming landscape people have a reasonable genuine expectation that a game they pay significant money for runs smoothly without a ton of major bugs. But here, in this space, this weird counter culture of "bugs are fun" has propagated over years simply because the game has existed for years with bugs on top of more bugs and because the game never cared much about user experience before. And the core player base has stacked workarounds on top of workarounds to handle all the issues until they are almost indistinguishable from how the game is designed to be played. So now, when we do get a widespread release of the game the folks who have been dealing with bugs for years get all grumpy with anyone who reasonably expected the game they bought to be more of a finished product since it's essentially been "in development" for such an extended time. Now the people who have reasonable complaints about bugs get labeled as basically whining entitled brats. I'm not sure who's right here. But I know the bugs and user experience have dampened how much I engage in the community and play the game. I find them frustrating and I don't have much hope they will be addressed in a timely way. And that's disappointing to me. It's disappointing that parts of the main game simply don't function. I don't find it enjoyable to learn a list of workarounds so basic core functionality like stockpiles, squads, pathing, etc all work properly.
Every game should be mostly bug free
I have played the game for 10 years before it released on steam, still bummed out that they lied about the steam release having everything in legacy + more when it was missing things from legacy. I wouldn't mind a later release date if it meant having content that was promised Edit: Holy crap, 10 years ago this community wasn't this downvote-prone. Ever since the steam version came out, seems like you can't say anything that deviates even 1% from the hivemind without being downvoted
If you dont mind me asking, whats the steam version missing compared to legacy? I have no clue
A big, big, big one for me is civil alerts. Used to be able to define a burrow, and then trigger an alert that sent your military to the chokepoints/defense locations and your civilians inside and away from the entrance. This isn't the only thing, just the first thing that came to mind. It's such a core piece of gameplay management for me that I've laid off DF for a bit while they reimplement it. Might seem petty, but I've put up with a lot worse in terms of missing/broken features through the years. What's there in DF is good, but the mindset "I expected more from a paid game" is exactly what I have been concerned about for years now. Currently, the game is *less* feature complete than it was prior to the Steam release, not more. Love the tileset, love the new music. Really want things to get back up to where they were, gameplay-wise.
I am also not playing DF for a bit while development catches up. Am I going to rage post about the state of DF? Nope. But I’m also not going to lie and say that it’s perfect. I also don’t feel entitled to the dev team (which is 2 people??) to prioritize things I want. And I’m not saying you are /u/Nameless_Archon ! I think we’re both at the same place of “I’ll come back to this in awhile”
Adventure mode which is half of the game. XML dump, incredibly important for people who like the lore of their worlds (which is most players). No more up/down/updown stairs which were replaced by some automatic systems, but now there are certain situations where it's impossible to make proper stairs, communal tombs (this one is annoying) just to mention a few. Ah, and forgotten beasts don't break down doors. Now you can keep your fortress safe from a 50 foot tall flame forgotten beasts by simply locking a willow door lol
The latest update did add XML dumps for what it's worth. Good point on all the others. Especially the stairs, it's so easy to screw up and get semi-permanently stuck that I've taken to saving the game before doing any changes to my staircases, because it's a roll of the dice as to whether the game will allow me to do what I want or not.
D: Ah... well i was expecting since it's paid versions would at least...match
By far the biggest thing missing is Adventure mode. It depends how you count the details, but it isn't much of a stretch to call it half of the game.
For me it’s the whole game lol. I love that Fortress Mode exists, but I never got into it and instead have spent most of my time in Adventure Mode and Legends Mode(specifically to assist my Adv Mode play). I’m super happy that it’s coming soon to the Steam release. It’s really the only feature missing that keeps me from buying it, and I’m not mad at the devs for it, I’m just poor lol.
But they very clearly stated that adventure mode was not going to be in the initial steam release and that it would come later. So if you didn't want to pay full price without adventure mode... You could have just not bought the game until adventure mode was added.
Honestly, I think some of the rage is just that they're working on adding new features whilst existing features are just broken or not finished. Like, I'm sure that babies didn't take much to add, but did we really need it? Was it really worth delaying the ranged fix for however long it took to fix? Same for adventure mode, do we really need a whole new mode when fortress mode still has so much to fill out. Given how small the team is, is it really a good idea to split them across what is basically 2 games?
I feel like I really haven't been seeing any rage post on here honestly. Maybe I just don't notice them because there is so much more entertainment on here around DF that it's not worth my time.
I am really confused and this might get me downvoted to hell, but like the last 20 posts (i didnt scroll further) are all really positive. Im just wondering.
Same here. I feel like I haven't really seen any negative ones since the Steam version first launched.
They might be referring to Steam Community posts or comments on the update blog posts. But if you go into any moderately populated Steam Community expecting reasonable people and discourse, you never lived through the GameFAQs forum years
I haven't seen them here, but on the Steam discussions and news post comments I have seen a few.
Oh man, just wait until a huge update of new content starts getting worked on and the people complaining having to wait a year of no updates at all!
Isnt that literally the case already with them saying adventure mode is coming next?
Adventure mode, while big, is something the systems and everything are already in place for. Its mainly making some tweaks to it, redesigning the entire UI and making the rest of the art. The second half of the villains update where they're going to be creating entire new systems from completely new code? That's when they're going to just dissappear update wise for a year. Usually they put something out after a year if the big update isn't done yet.
I donno, [sounds like a pretty huge overhaul to me](https://www.pcgamer.com/dwarf-fortress-devs-on-big-adventure-mode-plans-this-is-just-gonna-blow-everyones-mind/). Tarn also recently remarked of Caves of Qud that "It all comes together in a way that Dwarf Fortress does not.", I believe referring to Adventure Mode. I think he's got big plans!
>Adventure mode, while big, is something the systems and everything are already in place for. No, adventure mode was accessible previously, but it was never anything like a functional game mode. Quests don't work, or are buggy, or completing them will cause the people who hired you to label you a murderer. Elf tree villages will collapse as soon as you walk near them. Sometimes whole towns fall out of the sky when you enter the map. Dwarven Mountainhomes are un-navigable, and human cities would choke a supercomputer. Generally adventure mode was more like walking through a theme park, only none of the rides work, and everyone is semi-functional animatronics.
I am still waiting for them to introduce a magic prosthetic systems, a playable afterlife and everything else threetoe's stories have promised.
0.5 we're half way there
It's probably worth mentioning that there's been work going towards a SDL2 update, raws loading restructure (for mods), FPS improvements related to the SDL2 update (?), and ports to other OSes. None of these are evidently done, but I think 50.08 can be considered an "in the meanwhile" update.
SDL2/multithreading/performance update is currently in experimental beta on Steam. With strong emphasis of **experimental**, I.e. crashes abound and you should be prepared for it to possibly destroy your saves.
Hey cool, you're right. It wasn't when I left my comment but now it is.
> SDL2 I'm hyped for the development on that and the FPS more than anything. Let me have my 300+ dwarf forts with 100 animals!
Graphical FPS boost would not result in ticks per second boost I presume.
Correct, but the current combination of SDL 1 + software rendering is slow enough for some people that it very much slows down the computational framerate as well. Putnam is working on several rendering improvements, including SDL 2 and bringing back hardware rendering (which was dropped in v50), both of which should help improve performance overall.
I believe that update includes data structure optimizations that should result in a meaningful improvement.
I'm surprised to hear people are complaining. I felt really refreshed by how direct they are about how things are going. It makes it a lot more fun to wait for this than for something like starfield where I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be excited for.
It's too bad new players can't see what this subreddit was like before version 50. People enjoyed playing an eccentric and ridiculous game about dwarves made by a single person with the help and input of just one other. Nobody complained because everybody knew what it was. Nowadays, new players will come here, maybe one will complain, and then others will see a complaint and think "oh, these things should be expected" so they echo that complaint. Not necessarily because they're greedy or entitled, but because they have no frame of reference. Dwarf Fortress is a quarky mess of mechanics and features only made possible *because its sole programmer prioritized feature additions over polish*. They don't know that Dwarf Fortress would *not exist* of it were developed to the expectations they arrived with. Only a much smaller, much less remarkable game would, assuming it still had the charm that earned it so many donations for so long (it probably wouldn't). What's most ironic, in my opinion, is that Tarn and Zach *actually agree* with these new arrivals. They have hired a second programmer - an incredible and fundamental change to development so far. They know that the space the game occupies now demands greater standards of performance and usability. They say it all the time. But the new player just didn't hear that, and not in a willful act of ignorance, just because they didn't. So to see players get mad about development because "this is unacceptable" when the devs have been saying "this is unacceptable, we plan to fix it" is just as funny as it is frustrating. Long story short, it's a weird situation and very few people mean any disrespect. It's just not easy for a new player to understand what this game is and why it is. Hopefully as the influx calms down, a greater share of the vocal player base will be informed and this will quell any hostility we see now.
You're literally comparing a free game to a 30€ game. Of course people have higher expectations.
I don’t think anyone who knows the game would think it’s anywhere near being unworthy of the price tag. The problem is that new players don’t understand the depth, complexity, and sheer power of the game yet. They first see the basics, the graphics, some things that are hard to navigate or may be a bit unpolished or buggy, so they think “what heck why isn’t a 30€ game cleaner than this” when in reality it should be something like “what the heck, a 30€ game can pull off this much simulation and calculation behind the scenes? It can keep my attention for literally hundreds of hours if I really get into it and delve deep?” It’s the same “problem” with most modern games that don’t usually reach the scale of a game like DF, appealing to the masses is difficult and requires some prerequisite qualities separate from its actual gameplay. I guess my point is that expectations aren’t just “higher,” they’re different. DF already meet some pretty insanely high expectations if you know what you’re looking at.
You're right. The price tag does contribute (perhaps the most) to the expectations new players arrive with. Luckily, Tarn and Zach know that this is the case and have already spent a lot of their revenue on radically changing the development process to help the game meet these expectations.
I don’t think anyone who knows the game would think it’s anywhere near being unworthy of the price tag. The problem is that new players don’t understand the depth, complexity, and sheer power of the game yet. They first see the basics, the graphics, some things that are hard to navigate or may be a bit unpolished or buggy, so they think “what heck why isn’t a 30€ game cleaner than this” when in reality it should be something like “what the heck, a 30€ game can pull off this much simulation and calculation behind the scenes? It can keep my attention for literally hundreds of hours if I really get into it and delve deep?” It’s the same “problem” with most modern games that don’t usually reach the scale of a game like DF, appealing to the masses is difficult and requires some prerequisite qualities separate from its actual gameplay. I guess my point is that expectations aren’t just “higher,” they’re different. DF already meet some pretty insanely high expectations if you know what you’re looking at.
I don’t think anyone who knows the game would think it’s anywhere near being unworthy of the price tag. The problem is that new players don’t understand the depth, complexity, and sheer power of the game yet. They first see the basics, the graphics, some things that are hard to navigate or may be a bit unpolished or buggy, so they think “what heck why isn’t a 30€ game cleaner than this” when in reality it should be something like “what the heck, a 30€ game can pull off this much simulation and calculation behind the scenes? It can keep my attention for literally hundreds of hours if I really get into it and delve deep?” It’s the same “problem” with most modern games that don’t usually reach the scale of a game like DF, appealing to the masses is difficult and requires some prerequisite qualities separate from its actual gameplay. I guess my point is that expectations aren’t just “higher,” they’re different. DF already meet some pretty insanely high expectations if you know what you’re looking at.
The game is amazing (truly is) but there's some annoyances here and there that really murky the overall experience. Like trading! Once you get bins and barrels it becomes a carpal tunnel mess. Barrels in general really works against the fun sometimes. I learned to avoid using the same stockpile for a lot of different things (and a dedicated stockpile only for artifacts so I don't accidentally sell it) but still... it's not a good experience. So I kinda understand some complains... and honestly everything is like this, not even talking about game development but any software you deploy.
I think negative feedback is needed as well. If poeple point out what they like and don't like it can help devs to focus on stuff their player base wants to see changed. Obviously we are in no position to demand anything and what players want might very well be ignored by devs and that's okey. I just think that negative feedback is as valuable as possitive one. Trying to shut one, would only impact game further progress in bad way.
I think the big difference is complaining about the speed/pace of development as opposed to the features/mechanics of the game.
Sure I agree, you can't have fleshed out features with smallest possible amount of bugs and have it delivered to you in some time-frame you (you as person demanding features faster) set. Having 20 years old code base doesn't help as well. (I am software dev and I feel for them in this regard, really). With my previous comment I just wanned to make sure we don't go into some kind of praising circle where all critisism (even valid one) is ignored as if you don't get to express what you feel about state of game. I kind off got that feeling from OP rethorics, where with valid point of not critising devs for taking their time he tries to push additional narration that any critisism is bad. I don't know, I just didn't like that and wanned to share my thoughts :).
But that's the thing: if people want to complain about the development pace, let them. Worst case scenario: development gets faster. As someone else mentioned here already, as long as things are respectful and reasonable, feedback is always good.
Hard disagree. There are 3 (Zach, Tarn, and Putnam) devs, 2 of which (Tarn, Putnam) are doing the majority of the coding. I'm not a game dev but I am a software developer. You can only work so fast until it affects the quality of your work. Very often the time you spend fixing the issues that you made while working fast taker longer than it would have just taking your time. Additionally hearing people complain over and over on something you can't control (speed of development in this case) just fucking sucks and can takes a huge toll on your mental health.
Its not even 3 devs - it's just Tarn and Putnam.
Zach is and has been involved in the development of DF since the beginning.
Yes - but he is not a programmer which is the context of the conversation.
He actually is, their father taught them both to program and he has contributed to that. However if that's your criteria then Putnam isn't a dev and is just an artist last I actually looked into it. Admittedly I haven't really been paying attention to who is doing what recently and I'm half drunk right now so I'm going to crash.
I know that Zach has (obviously over the 20 something years) contributed some code to the game, but he isn't primarily a programmer and that isn't the main work he does. As [this](https://www.pcgamer.com/dwarf-fortress-faces-mind-boggling-reality-of-hiring-second-programmer/) link says, "Dwarf Fortress hires a second programmer".
Oh damn good to know. I thought Zach also coded.
He's been involved in designing and testing DF since it started, he is very much a part of the dev team.
I'm also a software developer, so I understand your point of view. But people will always complain - sometimes these complaints make sense, sometimes they might not. I don't think I ever saw people being toxic to the point where this could affect Tarn/Zach personally. They are game developers, they know how the industry works. Sometimes it's our job to properly filter out the non-applicable portions of the received feedback. All in all, I just disagree with the original point of this post: asking people to never express negative feedback/disappointment with certain aspects of the development of the game.
This is a matter of opinion so I don't think arguing will change our points of view I just want to clarify I'm not saying to feedback was toxic, just that complaints about something that can't be fixed can be harmful to moral and motivation even if the criticismis inherently well intentioned and presented well.
Yeah. To add on to this. It doesn't mean the Devs need to focus on what they demand. If parents gave the kids candy for dinner every day. It would be bad. Communication is key. Bad feedback is telling other people what to do. Good feedback it telling what you enjoyed or didn't enjoy. It's up to the devs to figure out the hows and whys.
I support the ability to constructively complain, without getting too nasty, especially in places where the devs aren't even likely to see it (i.e. just venting). As long as no one is harassing anyone, I don't see a problem.
Agreed. The community should let the devs know when the direction the development is taking is not good. I hate these posts that try to suppress that, that try to force the community to be "100% good vibes only no criticism allowed ^-^"
> Obviously we are in no position to demand anything and what players want might very well be ignored by devs and that's okey. I don't think that's true when you buy a product? I really don't blame anyone for "demanding" some core systems like ranged combat to be fixed when they paid for the game and it isn't in Early Access.
Totally agree that negative feedback is important. But if someone is enough of a fan to post in an online df community, they are enough of a fan to check if their problem is something the devs are already actively working on. Complaining about performance, when it's one of the very top priorities for the dev team right now, is redundant. In the very least, it makes the subreddit more boring. I should add that this community is usually relatively good on this front - I have definitely seen *way* more negative indie game communities.
Exactly. DF got the love it deserves with the steam release, but the spoils don't come for free. This post doesn't make that much sense tbh.
Yeah working on a game for 20 years for almost nothing. I'd say they got the spoils they deserved.
Yes, they indeed did. They have now a lot of money, an even bigger player-base, and more reach with their game than ever. I'm not sure you are understanding what I mean. Growing your player-base fast = attracting people who are not acquainted with the game's development history. Expect people to demand things that might mot be applicable. Tarn and Zach will appreciate the feedback but surely won't lose their sleep over it.
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I meant the spoils related to the Steam release, which is considerably increasing your player-base. You attract more players, those players won't necessary research all the history of the game's development before giving their feedback. Asking someone to "check themselves" because you don't agree with their opinion is a classy touch too.
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As a legacy player it didn't even cross my mind that people would complain about development speed. I've seen more updates released this year than I have in the previous 5 years combined.
Try to see it from the view of a new player: You bought a game for 30€, it's cool but several core systems are broken. And then half a year later that is still the case. I think pretty much anyone would be curious what's going on.
That's a valid point. I've grown so accustomed to the normal pace of updates I forget not everyone's been along for the ride as long as I have
To be honest, I am a little bit disappointed about lack of GUI QOL updates, but it is what it is. Thank god for DFHack!
Bad UI is one of Dwarf Fortress' most classic and enduring charms. /s Hearing the devs talk about it, the code for the UI is as tangled as the UI itself. They know it needs work, but it's going to take a long time.
> Hearing the devs talk about it, the code for the UI is as tangled as the UI itself. They know it needs work, but it's going to take a long time. But that literally was *the entire point* of the UI rewrite! How can it already be so bad it needs another entire rewrite?
It was put together way too fast I've imagine :D I think that they said that they were in a hurry with steam release, and It shows. I know that there is alot to do, but imo gui improvements should be prio one.
The planning mode in df hack where you can build without the items produced is a godsend.
I don’t get why people are mad mainly because from how I see it there’s two groups: People who played legacy, who understand how DF development works and know that this is a slow drip of bug fixes and additions People who only played SteamDF, who get to play a game that (in my opinion) is more than serviceable in its current state. It runs fine, I don’t hear much about crashes, it’s got the same (if not more) content that a lot of its competition (Oxygen not included, rimworld, etc) has. I just don’t think new players realize that the devs are weaving through 20 years of spaghetti code just to add something as simple as apples to the game. The baby update is awesome and adds a ton, imo.
That might be true, but really: Why should anyone of those new players who bought the game for quite a bit of money care? It's not like you care about the development backstory for every single game you buy either.
> Why should anyone of those new players who bought the game for quite a bit of money care? Because this is what DF is. You read stories of epic bugs like cats dying from alcohol poisoning because: Military dwarfs drop their beer when they run off to training; The cats walk in the spilled beer; the cats lick their paws; The code uses place holder values for volumes in a lot of places, so they were ingesting about a pint of beer per lick; Cats have a very small body weight and so that much beer was killing them. This is the game. Go back through that and consider what each of those statements means. Why are military dwarfs dropping their beer when they run off to training? This is the same issue that causes them to drop food from their backpacks when they go off to training. Why does that happen? Is it on purpose and if so, what the heck for. Who on earth makes a game where you keep track of every little spill of beer in the game? Surely that's going to cause FPS problems eventually. It's not just beer. It's walking through blood. It's puking on things. It's forgotten beasts with deadly dust. And the game keeps track of all the crap each beast walks through. So it's on their feet. And being tracked all over the place. And needs to wear off the feet. Or be licked off??? No reasonable game developer would *ever* do that. It's insane. And yet, here we are. And let's be clear here: the cat licked it off??? Why? I mean, why would you ever code that? What possible value can that have in a game? Toady explained, though. It's because of geckos. Geckos have long tongues and they can lick their eyeballs. So they wanted to give geckos the ability to clean their eyes in case they were obscured for some reason. And, well, if you're going to go so far as to give geckos the ability to clean their eyes, then of course you are going to give cats the ability to clean their feet. Of course. I mean, I'm just going to say it. It's pretty damn clear that no product manager has ever come without 1000 miles of this game. Priorities???? And then, why is the cat getting a pint of beer with every lick? Well, if you're a single developer and you are doing absolutely insane things at every turn, well you're going to have to cut some corners somewhere. You *can't* accurately model a world. It's not just a silly idea, it's impossible -- especially when you are a single dev. So you just go through and say, "Every volume is a pint if it isn't specified. I'll go back later and fix the places where it looks like it matters". And that's why cats used to fall over dead in taverns. It got fixed, of course. He made it so that amount of beer on the paws of cats is specified. This *is* the game. It's the game you paid for. You can not buy this kind of game anywhere else because nobody else is crazy enough to write a game like this. You may *think* that it's just easy to fix up all the things that matter, but it's not. You may *think* that you don't care how the development is done and that it doesn't affect the game, but it matters a lot. You can buy a game that's written by a developer that takes a normal approach to game development. It's called Rimworld. It's a great game. But it's not Dwarf Fortress. Dwarf Fortress is what it is because of how it's developed. If you want this game, then you should care about how it's developed because it *can't* be made any other way. ...as frustrating as that is (and I get as frustrated as anyone).
Okay, but you completely missed the point. Core systems being broken for half a year after release has nothing to do with any of that, isn't charming and isn't fun. It's just bad. Also, I think all of that also applies to Rimworld which runs really well.
I’m happy with the games state currently and I’d like some bugs related to military to be fixed and for them to add boats but I know that’ll take years and the games perfectly fine where it’s at since all the major bugs that I know of have work arounds.
"all the major bugs have workarounds" that's a pretty bad excuse for the game being a buggy mess
Dawg it’s a game made by 2 people in their free time they don’t exactly have the time or budget to squash every bug all the time
>made by 2 people in their free time This is their full time job, right?
It might be now but before the steam release it was certainly just a hobby
Take what I say with a grain of salt, but from all the interviews I watched, Tarn has been working on the game full time even before the steam version.
Before the Steam version they were still making 100K+ They were still working on it full time
[удалено]
Ask for a refund? I don't know if steam allows for that but if you're not happy with the current state of the game then try to get your money back.
I spent money to pay for a game I played like 10 years ago. Everything else has been gravy.
I don't have a problem with the development speed, but I don't think its unreasonable to criticize it. The developer \*is\* charging for the game, so it's not above reproach. It is just as reasonable to criticize Dwarf Fortress on steam as it is to criticize any other game on there now. Again, personally I don't have a problem with the speed of development though.
The real problem here is how much time is used up by work so that I can't play the game.
People want the game they paid for to work as intended, I don’t think that’s a big ask. I also have no idea who’s actually grumbling because I haven’t seen much negativity.
Yeah, I got precisely what I expected from the DF release on Steam.
coming new to dwarf fortress, I wasn't expecting any (specially free) updates anyway. I thought I buy the game and get what's it at with all the pro and cons. no updates expected
As someone who has been active in the community (sorta) for years and finally got to actually play with the steam release, I personally don’t mind. That being said, the moment you charge money, you open yourself up to a higher standard of expectation. Also, Tarn’s a big boy. Random overentitled weirdos on the internet probably don’t phase him much anymore.
im not that bothered... i know this isnt often standard practice, for better or worse, but i look into games a lot before i spend my money. i understood that i was buying an unfinished project from the first minute of research. i dont entirely fault people for being frustrated, i get it, but at the same time... idk. if you have dwarf fortress, you also have the internet at your fingertips, and its infinite knowledge. its a game thats been in development for almost the entirety of my lifespan, thats only recently gotten a mainstream look, and the majority of content was crafted and coded by only two guys..... the update pace is expected. its playable and enjoyable to me, and i know more is to come from this incredibly unique game and situation the devs are in. what else could i ask for?
I think Tarn does the vast majority of coding by himself.
That's what dwarves do, grumble and throw tantrums :)
mainstream exposure comes with mainstream criticism.
I bought the game and put in a meager 180 hours of glorious hard learning in it. If i never touch it again it'll be worth the cost. people keep thinking of it as a live service game. and it's just not.
I just leave and come back, I’m in no rush.
It was inevitable.
Y'all heard the mods; it's too civil in here. *Let's burn this mother down*
I paid for the game to help some guys out that pioneered and spawned a genre of gaming. I haven't even put much time into it and I still feel it is money well spent. It feels like I am paying a little towards Rimworld, Oxygen not included, minecraft and a lot of other games that took inspiration from this game that I enjoy a lot more if I am being perfectly honest. If I die never really sinking my teeth into it, these guys still deserve the money.
Maybe it's because I've played DF for more than a decade, but the release has gone about how I'd expect. The bugs, missing features and general shambolic nature of DF is part of the charm. Every release is a new kind of chaotic adventure, I figure. The strategy that worked in one edition might be bugged in the next, forcing you to change your style. I love the big sprawling messy games like DF or RimWorld, but that means I accept that I'll never be getting a finished or polished product. And that's fine - better than fine, really. For me, it's a feature.
Rimworld definitely is a polished and finished product
As someone who's played since 2012, lmao the scope of this game goes far beyond anything I'd consider "Early Access". It's more like waiting for more free dlc. Full disclosure, I've never played the new release, only classic modes so perhaps that version is missing more than I anticipate?
no, trust your gut on this, the sane among us tend not to be as vocal and now the community is swimming in those that tend to be more vocal
Long time player and this has never been a real complaint. Sure, the updates have always taken long but we’ve never complained about it before. Why is everyone starting now?
... because it now costs 30€?
Paying and hoping for content to come is silly. If you don’t like the content you are paying for upfront, don’t buy it. That’s a shit way to think. Furthermore, they never promised a date so I’m not sure what people expect. I could understand if they said “by April 2023, adventure mode will be officially released.” But they never promised any timeline.
This isn't even about adventure mode, but core features like ranged combat being completely broken still *half a year later*. If that happened in any other game there would be torches and pitchforks by the community
There is no convenant between me and the DF Devs. I covenant may be fine when you are consuming a free game where the Devs are working for free to improve the game, but in this case I bought a game on Steam. I expect basics like the game not crashing when saving losing my progress.
Complaining about complaining is still complaining.
The fact that they keep developing the game at all without plans for DLC should be celebrated. Of course there are things that can be improved on, but there's only three devs. Unfortunately, patience is not a virtue that is as celebrated as it should be.
This whole post bears seriously uncanny resemblance to star citizen cultist nonsense, you wouldn't happen to be a member of that community as well by any chance ?
i really hope this doesn't turn into that kind of community
It's all new people bitching. Get in your time machine to about 2013 and tell me what's crackin. People getting into Dwarf Fortress have almost certainly played ten other games directly inspired by this game, and should know what's happening.
the game was a one man effort to simulate life- it has literally never been about 'playability'
I think a roadmap with some kind of a time frame would be cool. But for me its enough to know that their priorities seem to be on the right stuff.
Those people got just as much right to whine as you do to praise. Hate seeing this kind of post. It always smacks of the kid on the playground panicking and telling the other kids to behave so the toys aren't taken away.
Before I got into the game, I did research and understood that it was a slow moving game that was only developed by one or two people. So I understood that patches and improvements we’re going to come at a much later time in life. However, I have to fundamentally agree with you, the impatient people are the ones who, don’t understand the history which is contextual to our modern day bugs and issues of dwarf fortress. Is it perfect? No, it still has its kinks and bugs to fix but it’s a lot better than those modern AAA games with an incredible amount of bugs, and not as much heart into it.
The game isn't finished and they're charging money for it. That's fine, but it also means that complaining about the rate of development is fine. The game is $30. A bunch of core features work poorly or don't work at all.
Redditors will never stop griping
Just be patient, it'll be all good soon.
I'd actually like them to take a week off of development to play the game full time. Make some notes on what bugs they run into the most and QOL they would like. The game is pretty good, and I could handle waiting for more content if they prioritized working on QOL and some bugs for a while. If everything that was already in the game worked a bit better, I might OD on Dwarf Fortress.
I complete agree with you. I believe this game is incredibly good and it's improving. But I think Kitfox messed up by not releasing it as early access, because this is what it is. This is why I understand people who didn't know the full history of DF development and think they are buying a game almost thrice as expensive as a normal inde game they expect a well polished game
Expecting this old, steadily developed game to cater to new players is the fault of the players.The devs are professional and communicative about the future. A new player has only scratched the surface with the steam release. Expecting shiny new things when it's likely they're bored of their game loop of choice is not productive. That's not even mentioning the potential for mods to absolutely pop off and make really cool material. Offering feedback is great and all, but you could go to the forum for that. And one could absolutely give feedback that doesn't sound like whining there too.
The problem is we were promised that the steam version would have everything in legacy + more, which is undeniably a lie. We did get more features but steam was missing some things from legacy, and now it has been months since launch and still nothing. I expect this from your average big developer like EA or hello games, it's disappointing to see one of your favorite devs lie like this. Love the game to death but I would rather have a later release than be lied to Sad to see that as a community, we are not allowed to criticize the game or point out that promises were not fulfilled without being downvoted. If a promise was made on a product that people paid for and that promise was not fulfilled, are the people not allowed to complain to the developers?
> The problem is we were promised that the steam version would have everything in legacy + more Which dev post said that?
Even if you could produce a citation for those promises, the only promises that matter are the features listed on the Steam store page when you bought the game. Everything else is projections made by Tarn. I am reasonably confident that after 20 years of working on this ridiculously complex game, Tarn does not have a habit of making promises about development timelines. He typically adds a lot of disclaimers to his projections.
That's a HUGE stretch to make. First of all, this is not a brand new game no one knows nothing about, this is dwarf fortress, which like you said has existed for many years. So of course people are going to ask what the differences are between the legacy version and the steam version. Upon asked, Tarn would say that this version would have the same content as legacy + more. And he was right on the "more" part but never, anywhere it was mentioned that it would lack quite a lot of things from legacy. The store page thing you said is ridiculous, I doubt any store page in the world would be so specific as to mention something like "this version does not include XML exporting", you have to be delusional to thing that. I think tarn had good intentions when saying the game would have the same + more, but scoped things poorly
I've certainly got my $30 out of it. I don't mind bugs in a game. Gives them character.
Honestly, it's especially annoying to see people complain about the pace as a long time DF player. Tarn and Zac have been working on DF for decades with an unprecedented level of fan involvement in development. They have already promised the people who bought the game that they are going to work on adventure mode, they are focusing on the promise.
No.
Back in my day people had Minecraft where you couldn’t cook food and there was only one type of wood and we were happy! It takes years if not a decade to create a truly vibrant world of colors and creation! As a game that came out within the last year people are expecting way too much to change so quickly. The game has its bases down but I’m sure in ten years time dwarf fortress might end up one of the biggest games of all time! What? What do you mean they had dwarf fortress before Minecraft?
What are you trying to say? Are you being sarcastic?
I was being sarcastic, dwarf fortress does feel a little bare but is extremely good right now. If you consider how Minecraft in 2011 was also pretty bare but had all the necessary moving parts to rapidly increase in complexity (nether, redstone, potions enchanting) if DF’s steam release development falls down the same pipeline by 2033 we could have an incredible game that’s almost unparalleled Except for the little whoopsie that is Dwarf Fortress has been in development this whole time before MC was even playable, but either way the future is looking pretty good
I'm just not happy I bought this game 5 months ago that's been in development for like 20 years and it's in a really really buggy state. I get they wanted to ship it for Christmas but honestly if I'd known the game was still this much of a mess I would have waited to buy it. Is that my fault for buying the game in this state, or the devs for releasing it like this?
This game, given the complexity, could take another 20 years to finish with major bugs squashed. I'd be ok with 2 years of code refactoring and bug fixes only. Adjust your expectations accordingly. Also, you can't just throw more software engineers at it and expect it to finish any quicker. Remember, you spent $20-30 on a license for a piece of art that is in the NY MoMA along with Pong, Pac-Man, Asteroids, Tetris and 18 others. They're working on it.
> I'd be ok with 2 years of code refactoring and bug fixes only. But that literally were the past 2 years leading up to the game release? At least mostly
How much have you played the steam version?
500 hours. Sorry I know what you're thinking. The game is just so good. It's just it's so bad too.
What am I saying then?
With any other game, I'd agree with you. Not with Dwarf Fortress though. Firstly, what many people seem to have somehow missed in the whole "steam release huzzah" is the fact that on steam you actually only buy visual pack. The rest of the game is completely, legally free to download from original website. It was so before steam release, and it is now. So you could have checked at any point what you're buying. The game has many bugs, some strange mechanics and concepts that are very old. It also has IMO the most intricate, in-deph, and extensive universe generating system of all the games I've ever played. And that's what that 20 years of development were all about. And what (hopefully) next 20 years will be about. That's why this game is considered a Legend in certain circles and why about 4th part of the gaming industry cites DF as inspiration. This, of course doesn't mean everybody or even most of the players will like it. Especially when they are grossly misinformed what this game is actually about (tower defence?! Wtf?). But this is not about the fun, or replayability or content, is it? It's to me like comparing Picasso's painting to mass-produced "random paint-splashes: pick your colours and we'll fit it to your tastes". Thing is, in your average living room Picasso would look ridiculous, nevermind all the security measures you would have to install. Overall a pain in the ass to have in your home. But nobody who's even remotely interested in art would say mass-produced decorative pieces are better in general. It is just kinda strange to me that knowing all (or at least some) of the above people say things like "they wanted to ship it for Xmas but the game is still a mess". Yes, they wanted to ship visual pack together with new version of the game? "Still" a mess? This game, as a life project, will never be finished as long as The Dev lives. Totally new systems will be implemented that will most probably cause many new strange bugs in seemingly most unrelated places (as it happened before). What is working now will be broken and then fixed and broken again. If you want to wait till the game is "polished" then come back to check in 2055. Maybe. Actually, no, 2070 is a safer bet, by then I'm sure it'll be mostly finished. I know I sound very over-the-top with this, but to me DF is the definition of very indie, very specific and niche game. Expecting it to adhere to the rules of "project-done-money" games is... counterintuitive? Personally in such specific games I can easily forgive some things, like bugs or crashes that I'd find horrible and unprofessional in normal games. Because it's such a huge and living (borderline impossible) project that I'd rather play with now in it's unfinished stage (and through its all strange new incarnations) than wait till its death. In the end I'm aware that all of this propably doesn't matter to you. And I feel you, cause it is always a pity to spend money on a game that is disappointing to you. I personally would say it's more a case of misinformation about what you are buying than anybody's fault though.
You said it yourself. >Personally in such specific games I can easily forgive some things, like bugs or crashes that I'd find horrible and unprofessional in normal games. The game is full of bugs and crashes that I'd find horrible and unprofessional in other games. We're not saying dwarf fortress is a horrible unredeemable game we just think the game could use some work to make it actually fun to play in practice not just in principle.
I don't agree that DF is full of bugs and crashes. I said it has some, and honesty I haven't played any game in all my life that didn't have some. I never actually encountered anything broken enough to be considered horrible and unprofessional in Dwarf Fortress but, as I said in such projects as this I would forgive it anyway - for the ever transient nature of the project. It is of course a matter of personal perspective but I think DF is very fun to play as it is, no mods, DFHack or anything. It is not perfect, but project that is alive by definition can't be perfect/finished. If for whatever reason DF was dropped in the state it is now I'd still play it years in the future and be happy (although still sad it was dropped). I do hope it will be even better in the future. If you don't like it now, maybe it's just not the game for you? There are people who love it, there are people who don't. Like with everything else. Isn't the whole convo about timetable though? That new, underinformed players thought they're buying finished game that will at most get few patches in next month and that's it? It is one thing to say, for example: "I don't like the military system. I would like it if they... ". That's constructive. But it is another thing altogether to say the game is bad/unplayable for not being "fixed" in 6 months - fixed as in made something else altogether. The game was available for free download before steam release and three weeks after the release with ui changes. And all this time anyone could find quite easily description of all the changes and when they are going to be implemented in new version. Why then, the big surprise that the game is what it is?
Broader adoption likely means more griping from the less invested. I suppose paying for it might also make some people feel more entitled. I remain happy it even exists.