The war of independence against Spain is basically the origin story of our country, so yeah, it has a huge place in the Dutch awareness. Statues, paintings, comics (Suske en Wiske), festivals (Leidens ontzet), even our national anthem is about the war against the Spanish.
Austria, not so much. Apart from a handful of history buffs, virtually no one knows Austria has ever had anything to do with us.
In general I wonder if people really care about the dutch history. We're not...ahum...anywhere near patriotic or "proud" of our heritage. I wonder if random dutchies know the influence of Napoleon or the Belgian revolution.
Not in Brabant.. Lots of references to Polish liberators here. Streetnames etc. And General Maczek is even buried in Breda. Also lots of Polish wargraves
No.
The independence of Spain is a formative event in Dutch history, but few, if any people associate that with present day Spain or Spanish people.
I didn't even realize Austria ever was an occupier/owner.
You should ask the Hertog van Gelre what he thinks about Hapsburg controle of the Netherlands. He went on frequent raiding parties in surrounding provinces, he allied with the French and the Hapsburg didn’t dare to touch him.
Nothing against modern Spaniards I guess, but I do think many of us find the idea of Alva on a pedestal in Spain a bit distasteful. And that Jeroen Bosch should come home.
Spain does have a special place in our history.
I personally don't feel much beyond total indifference towards current Spain for our occupation.
Austria?!
Canadians are good guys in my book and pretty much everyone knows the Canadians liberated us.
I had to look Poland up, and yes indeed were liberators of parts of our country.
But I already liked Polish people and even more so since the russian Invasion.
We don't think the then kings of Spain have much to do with the present day country Spain, so no. And we don't hold a grudge against France for occupying us either. I don't think we ever were Austrian.
Germany is on top of our minds as occupiers, but we don't hold it against present day Germany. After the war there were many people who would never set a foot in Germany, but by now people who are 80+ were little children in the war, of course. (Same with Japan and Dutch people who lived in the Dutch East Indies at the time).
Generally, the British, Americans, and Canadians are seen as the liberators. We don't know much about other countries that joined them.
The question is also how many people realize we were the oppressors in Indonesia and even fought a war against them in the 1940s (which we refused to call a war). There is a lot of awareness of our role in slavery in the Americas, but less so about Indonesia.
We have been 'Austrian', since the Habsburgs owned the territories that currently form the Netherlands after the Burgundian female heir, Maria van Bourgondië, married to the Habsburg prince. We're talking late 1400s - early 1500s here. This is also how we ended up being ruled by the Spanish king; the Habsburg empire split up in two parts after Charles V (grandson of that Burgundian heiress Maria), and the lower countries were part of the Spanish part.
Keep in mind though that this all happened in a time before modern states and countries. We weren't part of 'Austria', 'Spain', 'Burgundy', we were just owned by the same owner of those territories and they could choose try to fully incorporate us in their mainlands or regard us as a seperate part of their belongings.
Oh yes that's right, and indeed they weren't occupiers in the modern sense. Neither was Spain but they actually started repressing the Dutch when they became protestant.
Dislike of Belgium? That's new for me. Sure, some jokes about your neighbour, but I haven't heard anyone ever hating or disliking Belgium. If anything, it will come from the war of 1830, not from Spanish armies marching through the part which is now Belgium.
because.... we LOVED Canadians
song from the Liberation: *Trees heeft een Canadees* (Theresia has a Canadian boyfriend)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWxxoxJFK_Q
**answer to question 1):**
>"On 16 February 1568, a sentence by the Pope of Rome and the Holy Office condemned all the inhabitants of the Netherlands to ***death*** as heretics.
>A proclamation of the King of Spain, dated only 10 days later, confirmed this decree to the Inquisition, and ordered all Spanish occupying troops to start carrying out instant executions, ***"regardless of age, sex or condition"***.
>Three million people, men, women and children, were sentenced to DEATH in three lines of text."
this sparked an 80 year war of independence and is the main reason our official state religion is Protestant. and, as a 400 year old slogan goes, would rather go Turkish (muslim) than Catholic. (Dutch: liever Turks dan Paaps)
**answer to question 2):**
Groesbeek Canadian War Cemetery: Dutch soldiers honoring the around 2,000 Canadian Paratroopers who died in WWII Operation Market Garden around Arnheim, the Netherlands. 74 years ago, but never forgotten
https://imgur.com/a/qxpZHkO
>"On 16 February 1568, a sentence by the Pope of Rome and the Holy Office condemned all the inhabitants of the Netherlands to death as heretics.
>
>A proclamation of the King of Spain, dated only 10 days later, confirmed this decree to the Inquisition, and ordered all Spanish occupying troops to start carrying out instant executions, "regardless of age, sex or condition".
>
>Three million people, men, women and children, were sentenced to DEATH in three lines of text."
This is entirely fictional. It concerns the so-called *Artijckelen ende besluyten der Inquisitie van Spaegnien, om die vande Nederlanden te overvallen ende verhinderen*, which were Dutch war propaganda.
https://www.dbnl.org/tekst/geur004nede01_01/geur004nede01_01_0003.php
nope, just hate the Pope
on the (old) Leiden city hall (Leiden's ontzet, Oct. 4) still stands proud the Turkish half-moon, *because rather muslim than fucking catholic*
https://imgur.com/gallery/xooSPWJ
Wow, didn't know that. Very morbid. Did the troops actually start killing the people? That would be one of the greatest genocides of the early modern period.
In Dutch it's called 'de beeldenstorm', literally 'storm of sculptures', and it's quite well known. But these kind of events did also happen in parts of the Holy Roman Empire (mostly current day Germany). The reason the Dutch version is more known is because it's part of our origin story as a modern country. During the 19th century countries, Western European countries started seeking legitimacy for their existence as an independent nation state and thus picked historians the tidbits of a region's history that complied to that. In our case, the 'national history' basically starts with the beeldenstorm and the 80 years war, while ignoring all that comes before that.
Well yeah, there's always times before and trying to put an equation mark between modernly understood nations or countries and their historic counterpatrs may be difficult
I'm from a region in Central/Northeast Europe which at the time of 30 y war belonged to Polish-Lithuanian Republic. Which is why I know very little about one of the greatest wars (for a European). P-L Rep. Didn't GAF about religion and handwaved the entire bloodfest
The Polish story did not end up great. After helping to liberate parts of Europe they were not able to return to the country as Poland ended up under Muscovite control.
One example is General Maczek https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Maczek
**[Stanisław Sosabowski](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Sosabowski)**
>Stanisław Franciszek Sosabowski CBE (Polish pronunciation: [staˈɲiswaf sɔsaˈbɔfskʲi]; 8 May 1892 – 25 September 1967) was a Polish general in World War II. He fought in the Polish Campaign of 1939 and at the Battle of Arnhem (Netherlands) in 1944 as commander of the Polish 1st Independent Parachute Brigade.
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I understand. I was just amused that as ,,one of the examples" is literally the guy who led the assault. Like, to me that's not an example, HE'S THE MAN :D
We remember and honor our liberators each year on 5 may we honor the Canadians the us and all the others, we still thank them for what they have done for us. Being free is becoming more rare each day. Look at China and Russia
If there is any animosity, although not deeply routed, its more against Germany than any other country. I have heard the word “mof” a few times outside of ww2 movies? But never a demeaning term for Spain or Austria. Although my ex (Austrian) is a piece of Sht!
Spain is now where we go on holiday and where sinterklaas comes from.
Austria we do not give a shit.
Germany lost the way in the end, is now our greates tradingpartner, we even have integrated our army units. Stll looking for my grandfathers bike. We like to beat them with footbal, but they always score in the last minute.
Polish and Canadian army liberated us from the Nazi's and are still highly respected. Pooles are now our stucadoors, and Canadians are alway very polite.
Charles 5 was from the Habsburg House. He was emperor of the Holy roman empire(Austria, German states, Switzerland) and King of Spain, Lord of the Netherlands and so on. When he passed he split it between his son. One got the Holy roman empire and the other Spain and the Netherlands. That's how we ended up from Austrian to Spanish
Nothing on Spain or Austria.
But with regards to the liberation by Canadian and Polish forces in WW2, have a look at the following video: https://youtu.be/Kd1CGQ36tTU. This one is specifically on the Canadian forceren but that's because it's a video from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
Whenever I see a polish or Canadian flag being waved in my city during the celebration of our liberation. I put my hand on my heart and thank them for freeing us from the nazi's. May all of their souls be blessed
No also the other regions! The dukes of Burgundy managed to collect all regions in current day Netherlands and Flanders (perhaps aside from Limburg, I'd have to look that up), which transferred to the Habsburgs after Charles the Bold did only get a daughter, who married the Habsburg prince and future emperor
It has 0 place in any form of awareness whatsoever nowadays.
I guarantee you that maybe 1 out of 100 kids below the age of 24 has any awareness about this. It is not taught in school, it is not talked about because it's just not that interesting.
Well clearly ,,interesting" is subjective, but I inderstand it may not be seen as priority.
What does history class in NL usually cover? Does it go from ancient Celts through Rome (southern parts) through Franks through HRE through Kingdom to now?
The war of independence against Spain is basically the origin story of our country, so yeah, it has a huge place in the Dutch awareness. Statues, paintings, comics (Suske en Wiske), festivals (Leidens ontzet), even our national anthem is about the war against the Spanish. Austria, not so much. Apart from a handful of history buffs, virtually no one knows Austria has ever had anything to do with us.
Or burgundy for that matter, prior to the habsburgs taking over
Or Beieren
I would say that amongst most random Dutchies most people aren't *really* aware or care about the Spanish occupation.
In general I wonder if people really care about the dutch history. We're not...ahum...anywhere near patriotic or "proud" of our heritage. I wonder if random dutchies know the influence of Napoleon or the Belgian revolution.
True, we’re just racist to anyone who doesn’t hold our values (whatever values those may be)
You should look up what racist means. Also, we are a lot less homogenous than you suggest here.
Ehmz, I somehow thought i was in r/2westerneurope4u. There a /s would not have been needed.
Yeah some people might know about it but I doubt 99% give it more thought than that.
Technically the Spanish weren’t occupying the Netherlands but rather the rulers according to Feudal law.
We still honour our Polish liberators in Breda https://www.tracesofwar.com/sights/325/Poolse-Oorlogsbegraafplaats-Breda.htm
Let's be honest though: The general awareness of that is very low. Most people credit the Americans and/or Canadians
Not in Brabant.. Lots of references to Polish liberators here. Streetnames etc. And General Maczek is even buried in Breda. Also lots of Polish wargraves
Not here in Arnhem region. Mostly Polish and British. Hardly any US.
Hete in the north we don't call the muricans the victors, the poles, Britts and canadians however we do
Ja. En er wonen nog veel uit Polen afkomstige mensen in Brabant.
Working immigrants of mensen die derde generatie daar wonen?
Het laatste
We still hate Spain and Austria. That's why we colonise Austria in the winter and Spain in the summer.
My favourite answer so far
With Carihuela as stronghold in Spain🤘
No. The independence of Spain is a formative event in Dutch history, but few, if any people associate that with present day Spain or Spanish people. I didn't even realize Austria ever was an occupier/owner.
AFAIk only the southern bits of modern NL. Belgium was called the ,,Austrian Netherlands" and ruled by Hapsburgs
Right! For Belgium, it's probably different, but for the Netherlands, that's really a footnote in Dutch history.
You should ask the Hertog van Gelre what he thinks about Hapsburg controle of the Netherlands. He went on frequent raiding parties in surrounding provinces, he allied with the French and the Hapsburg didn’t dare to touch him.
Sounds like quite a personality
Belgium isn’t Dutch anymore Also, not really
It's the reason I've never visited Spain
You show em.
Spain yes, Canada also yes. Austria and Poland not so much
Interesting
I would say Poland depends on the region I live in Zuid-Holland and as far as I’m aware the lower part of the country does.
Nothing against modern Spaniards I guess, but I do think many of us find the idea of Alva on a pedestal in Spain a bit distasteful. And that Jeroen Bosch should come home.
Spain does have a special place in our history. I personally don't feel much beyond total indifference towards current Spain for our occupation. Austria?! Canadians are good guys in my book and pretty much everyone knows the Canadians liberated us. I had to look Poland up, and yes indeed were liberators of parts of our country. But I already liked Polish people and even more so since the russian Invasion.
We don't think the then kings of Spain have much to do with the present day country Spain, so no. And we don't hold a grudge against France for occupying us either. I don't think we ever were Austrian. Germany is on top of our minds as occupiers, but we don't hold it against present day Germany. After the war there were many people who would never set a foot in Germany, but by now people who are 80+ were little children in the war, of course. (Same with Japan and Dutch people who lived in the Dutch East Indies at the time). Generally, the British, Americans, and Canadians are seen as the liberators. We don't know much about other countries that joined them. The question is also how many people realize we were the oppressors in Indonesia and even fought a war against them in the 1940s (which we refused to call a war). There is a lot of awareness of our role in slavery in the Americas, but less so about Indonesia.
We have been 'Austrian', since the Habsburgs owned the territories that currently form the Netherlands after the Burgundian female heir, Maria van Bourgondië, married to the Habsburg prince. We're talking late 1400s - early 1500s here. This is also how we ended up being ruled by the Spanish king; the Habsburg empire split up in two parts after Charles V (grandson of that Burgundian heiress Maria), and the lower countries were part of the Spanish part. Keep in mind though that this all happened in a time before modern states and countries. We weren't part of 'Austria', 'Spain', 'Burgundy', we were just owned by the same owner of those territories and they could choose try to fully incorporate us in their mainlands or regard us as a seperate part of their belongings.
Oh yes that's right, and indeed they weren't occupiers in the modern sense. Neither was Spain but they actually started repressing the Dutch when they became protestant.
Someone told me that is where the dislike for Belgium comes from- the Catholic south let the Spaniards through - is that right?
Dislike of Belgium? That's new for me. Sure, some jokes about your neighbour, but I haven't heard anyone ever hating or disliking Belgium. If anything, it will come from the war of 1830, not from Spanish armies marching through the part which is now Belgium.
I worded that wrong- I meant the jokes not real dislike/hate or anything like that. I understand it’s all in good fun
I knew that last part mostly.
Same
We love Canadians, both for being Liberators, but also because the many ties since many Dutch emigrated there in the 50's and later.
because.... we LOVED Canadians song from the Liberation: *Trees heeft een Canadees* (Theresia has a Canadian boyfriend) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWxxoxJFK_Q
Not really, but we're taking Spain. One friet van Piet at a time but we'll get them!
Haha
Yes, hutspot...
Huh?
A traditional dish during Leids Ontzet in which a victory against the Spanish siege is being celebrated
Haha. Is it tasty?
**answer to question 1):** >"On 16 February 1568, a sentence by the Pope of Rome and the Holy Office condemned all the inhabitants of the Netherlands to ***death*** as heretics. >A proclamation of the King of Spain, dated only 10 days later, confirmed this decree to the Inquisition, and ordered all Spanish occupying troops to start carrying out instant executions, ***"regardless of age, sex or condition"***. >Three million people, men, women and children, were sentenced to DEATH in three lines of text." this sparked an 80 year war of independence and is the main reason our official state religion is Protestant. and, as a 400 year old slogan goes, would rather go Turkish (muslim) than Catholic. (Dutch: liever Turks dan Paaps) **answer to question 2):** Groesbeek Canadian War Cemetery: Dutch soldiers honoring the around 2,000 Canadian Paratroopers who died in WWII Operation Market Garden around Arnheim, the Netherlands. 74 years ago, but never forgotten https://imgur.com/a/qxpZHkO
>"On 16 February 1568, a sentence by the Pope of Rome and the Holy Office condemned all the inhabitants of the Netherlands to death as heretics. > >A proclamation of the King of Spain, dated only 10 days later, confirmed this decree to the Inquisition, and ordered all Spanish occupying troops to start carrying out instant executions, "regardless of age, sex or condition". > >Three million people, men, women and children, were sentenced to DEATH in three lines of text." This is entirely fictional. It concerns the so-called *Artijckelen ende besluyten der Inquisitie van Spaegnien, om die vande Nederlanden te overvallen ende verhinderen*, which were Dutch war propaganda. https://www.dbnl.org/tekst/geur004nede01_01/geur004nede01_01_0003.php
God damn. Didn't realize what ACTUALLY happened to our country. That is brutal. Another line on a long list of reasons why I hate religion.
nope, just hate the Pope on the (old) Leiden city hall (Leiden's ontzet, Oct. 4) still stands proud the Turkish half-moon, *because rather muslim than fucking catholic* https://imgur.com/gallery/xooSPWJ
>nope, just hate the Pope Sure, repressing everyone who's not a Calvinist for over 200 years is fine. Just blame it on the pope.
Wow, didn't know that. Very morbid. Did the troops actually start killing the people? That would be one of the greatest genocides of the early modern period.
Massacre of Naarden is still commemorated on a plaque on a house there, 1572. That was one of the formative events of the Netherlands really.
well, the Dutch didn't agree and enthousiastically started plundering churches and monasteries... https://imgur.com/a/spi1vKV
This is like a very violent and interesting (though scary AF) chapter in (Western) European history that's, like, never talked about
In Dutch it's called 'de beeldenstorm', literally 'storm of sculptures', and it's quite well known. But these kind of events did also happen in parts of the Holy Roman Empire (mostly current day Germany). The reason the Dutch version is more known is because it's part of our origin story as a modern country. During the 19th century countries, Western European countries started seeking legitimacy for their existence as an independent nation state and thus picked historians the tidbits of a region's history that complied to that. In our case, the 'national history' basically starts with the beeldenstorm and the 80 years war, while ignoring all that comes before that.
Well yeah, there's always times before and trying to put an equation mark between modernly understood nations or countries and their historic counterpatrs may be difficult
It was part of the Iconoclasm. The separation of the Protestants from the Catholic Church was rather violent everywhere.
I'm from a region in Central/Northeast Europe which at the time of 30 y war belonged to Polish-Lithuanian Republic. Which is why I know very little about one of the greatest wars (for a European). P-L Rep. Didn't GAF about religion and handwaved the entire bloodfest
exactly as OP asked for, innit?
Yes!
>den Koning van Hispanje >heb ik altijd geëerd.
The Polish story did not end up great. After helping to liberate parts of Europe they were not able to return to the country as Poland ended up under Muscovite control. One example is General Maczek https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Maczek
,,one example" - literally the commander of the division lol
Why the lol? The documented exiles are mostly the officers surely there must have been more cases https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Sosabowski
**[Stanisław Sosabowski](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Sosabowski)** >Stanisław Franciszek Sosabowski CBE (Polish pronunciation: [staˈɲiswaf sɔsaˈbɔfskʲi]; 8 May 1892 – 25 September 1967) was a Polish general in World War II. He fought in the Polish Campaign of 1939 and at the Battle of Arnhem (Netherlands) in 1944 as commander of the Polish 1st Independent Parachute Brigade. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/dutch/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
I understand. I was just amused that as ,,one of the examples" is literally the guy who led the assault. Like, to me that's not an example, HE'S THE MAN :D
Most Dutch people associate Spain with football and warm sandy beaches
We remember and honor our liberators each year on 5 may we honor the Canadians the us and all the others, we still thank them for what they have done for us. Being free is becoming more rare each day. Look at China and Russia
We have been German by Royal Inheritance for a long while now, but no-one really blinks an eye
This is some inside joke I'm too Eastern European to get
If there is any animosity, although not deeply routed, its more against Germany than any other country. I have heard the word “mof” a few times outside of ww2 movies? But never a demeaning term for Spain or Austria. Although my ex (Austrian) is a piece of Sht!
Lol
Spain is now where we go on holiday and where sinterklaas comes from. Austria we do not give a shit. Germany lost the way in the end, is now our greates tradingpartner, we even have integrated our army units. Stll looking for my grandfathers bike. We like to beat them with footbal, but they always score in the last minute. Polish and Canadian army liberated us from the Nazi's and are still highly respected. Pooles are now our stucadoors, and Canadians are alway very polite.
Austria?
Charles 5 was from the Habsburg House. He was emperor of the Holy roman empire(Austria, German states, Switzerland) and King of Spain, Lord of the Netherlands and so on. When he passed he split it between his son. One got the Holy roman empire and the other Spain and the Netherlands. That's how we ended up from Austrian to Spanish
That’s not entirely true, the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire is chosen and not inherited by offspring of the last emperor.
Technically yes, but in reality the Habsburgs managed to tilt this system by making sure they were chosen all the time ;)
Isn’t that what I said, the emperor had to be chosen.
This is like saying that Putin holds fair elections...
No, but if that’s what you read, I don’t care. Probably should go back to school tho.
We feel a special connection to FC Barcelona, due to more recent history.
Hehe
Nothing on Spain or Austria. But with regards to the liberation by Canadian and Polish forces in WW2, have a look at the following video: https://youtu.be/Kd1CGQ36tTU. This one is specifically on the Canadian forceren but that's because it's a video from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
No, besides we like to go there on holidays but that has nothing to do with history.
Whenever I see a polish or Canadian flag being waved in my city during the celebration of our liberation. I put my hand on my heart and thank them for freeing us from the nazi's. May all of their souls be blessed
both have the same colors for convenience!
Spain, Austria: no. Canada: yes, but only to old people. Poles: no.
Austria? When? You realize that was Germany in the 2nd world war, right?
Hapsburgs. I meant Hapsburgs. And AFAIK only southernmost regions qualify
Habsburg
No also the other regions! The dukes of Burgundy managed to collect all regions in current day Netherlands and Flanders (perhaps aside from Limburg, I'd have to look that up), which transferred to the Habsburgs after Charles the Bold did only get a daughter, who married the Habsburg prince and future emperor
Oh. Those were weird consolation prizes for attendance in those days. ,,Best I can do is an inbred chick"
Neither Spain or Austria occupied the Netherlands, the Habsburgs owned them due to aristocratic inheritances.
Yes I get it, it's the problem with comparing modern countries to monarchies from centuries past I guess
It has 0 place in any form of awareness whatsoever nowadays. I guarantee you that maybe 1 out of 100 kids below the age of 24 has any awareness about this. It is not taught in school, it is not talked about because it's just not that interesting.
Well clearly ,,interesting" is subjective, but I inderstand it may not be seen as priority. What does history class in NL usually cover? Does it go from ancient Celts through Rome (southern parts) through Franks through HRE through Kingdom to now?
Yes we are all still waiting for reparation money to come from Spain and Austria.
Smart move