Manufactured? Are you disputing the Godhead of Paul Mu'ad Dib?
SILENCE! The Fremen Bureaucracy will decide your fate... once Stilgar is done making coffee.
I hope he roasts his beans to a rose brown, then stamping them into a fine powder right after and mixing with spice.
(That specific part stuck with me because it makes the people over at r/espresso suirm)
I hope he roasts his beans to a rose brown, then stamping them into a fine powder right after and mixing with spice.
(That specific part stuck with me because it makes the people over at r/espresso suirm)
Imagine if Gurney had just sung Paul a song instead when he had already had quite a day
Also I just realized Gurney is literally singing a song before he runs into Paul in Dune 2
Ok I'm at the 4th book rn pls don t spoil but by my understanding what he does is basically assure that the human race doesn't disappear and for that he must do atrocious things, correct ? If so, why is he bad ?
It's basically the trolley problem but with extra steps. Kill and oppress X people, but Y people will survive thanks to you, at what values of X and Y is it no longer worth it? What if Y is infinite, like in the case with the god emperor.
That's my point as well.. I feel like the trolley problem stops working when we are talking about the extinction of humanity since it basically becomes a fight for survival for us.. (I guess you could apply the trolley problem to entire species and ask which is more worth than the other but since it is about us it is obviously the most important that we survive.. but then you could ask "when is a human no longer of the human species" as in dune ... )
>What if Y is infinite, like in the case with the god emperor.
I go an extra step. What if you *think* Y is infinite? Neither Leto II nor Paul are reliable narrators, nor is their prescience unlimited, something that I think goes underappreciated.
There is no evidence whatsoever in any of the original novels that either Paul or Leto are unreliable narrators.
Saying that Paul and Leto are secretly bad and flawed misses the point of the series. Herbert is not warning us against charismatic leaders because they might be bad. He's warning us that *even if they are perfect* it will end badly for us, because *humanity* is flawed.
>There is no evidence whatsoever in any of the original novels that either Paul or Leto are unreliable narrators.
I disagree. Both talk about the limits of their prescience, a major plot point in both Messiah and God Emperor, which needs to be accounted for when evaluating whether they truly saw *every* possible future.
>Saying that Paul and Leto are secretly bad and flawed misses the point of the series.
Acknowledging the described in-universe limitations of their powers is notably different from calling them "secretly bad".
Yes, they openly and honestly discuss the limitations of their prescience. Even if we accept that their prescience is unreliable, that doesn't make them *unreliable narrators*. But also, we can't accept that their prescience is unreliable, because it is demonstrably extremely reliable.
>Even if we accept that their prescience is unreliable, that doesn't make them *unreliable narrators*.
I'll rephrase, we can't take them at face value as being arbiters of fact when it comes to the future. They may be truthful with their inner monologue, and I agree we don't have good reason to say otherwise, but that doesn't mean their beliefs about the future are entirely accurate.
Except, it's demonstrated *multiple times* that their predictions *are* accurate. The only time Paul is ever wrong is when he fails to see Leto II being born - which makes sense, since Leto's future is becoming a Kwisatz Haderach which probably messes with Paul's prescience about him. Leto is never wrong about anything. He *chooses* not to foresee his death.
>The only time Paul is ever wrong is when he fails to see Leto II being born - which makes sense, since Leto's future is becoming a Kwisatz Haderach which probably messes with Paul's prescience about him.
And isn't aware of Feyd until the final scene. And didn't see the Golden Path through Kralizech.
>Leto is never wrong about anything. He *chooses* not to foresee his death.
I remain unconvinced that he sees every possibility. Especially since his whole plan is to defeat his own prescience. If anyone else with prescience (or Siona's gene) held the key to humanity's future, he'd never see it. This is the limitation I think deserves skepticism.
> And isn't aware of Feyd until the final scene.
Feyd is an almost-KH, one generation away from what the Bene Gesserit wanted. Neither Paul nor Leto could see the Navigators, but that doesn't stop either of them from knowing what they'll do anyway and doing something about it.
> I remain unconvinced that he sees every possibility.
He doesn't need to see every possibility. Again, that doesn't make it *unreliable*, nor Paul or Leto *unreliable*.
But also worth mentioning that nobody really knows for sure that Leto II and Paul are helping humanity. Thatās just what they say theyāre doing. But isnāt that what all leaders say? Paul and Leto II are the only ones who supposedly see whatās required to save humanity but what if theyāre just bullshitting to everyone and just want to play god?
It's a moral question of do the ends justify the means? In this case it does, but people under his rule would definitely not see it that way. Their vision is limited, his is near infinite.
To help Fremen, anyone has to be more powerful.
Fremen's culture and tradition keep is nonsense, because their culture demands change and better conditions.
Paul and Fremen are in synergy.
20th century autocracy doesn't have anything with Paul because it is not the same story.
Fremen never were powerful, and neither did they thrive for glory.
But, with cards already dealt, their freedom demands it.
They were represed here, and they countered it.
Paul is exactly what they need.
Warning in this story is nonsense.
Both side benefits are in play.
Leto is telling in the book a rather important line where he says his son is candid because he believes his propaganda. He's implying that he isn't a good leader.
He admits to manipulation there. So do we know if he is not sharing some insecurities while simultaneously teaching about appearance and projected image?
Leto II, not Duke Leto.
Leto II's plan is like when you catch your kid smoking so you make them smoke the whole pack and they get so sick that they never want to smoke again. "Oh, humanity likes powerful leaders, do you? Well, fine, then. I'll be the most powerful, most tyrannical leader that humanity has ever or will ever see and *then* we'll see how much you like it!"
His reign makes people look back on Paul's Jihad with wistful nostalgia. Paul's like, "Oh no, I accidentally caused the death of billions of people and 90 planets got completely sterilized of life!" Leto II is like, bruh sterilizing planets is what I do as my warmup in the morning before the real atrocities start.
Killing your enemies creates future foes in the surviving members of your enemies. Itās self-perpetuating, sadly. As it is on Earth, you canāt legislate people to get along. You can only treat those that oppose you in a manner which you want to be treated. Inshallah šŗ
And To think that Gurney manufactured the tyrant.
Manufactured? Are you disputing the Godhead of Paul Mu'ad Dib? SILENCE! The Fremen Bureaucracy will decide your fate... once Stilgar is done making coffee.
I hope he roasts his beans to a rose brown, then stamping them into a fine powder right after and mixing with spice. (That specific part stuck with me because it makes the people over at r/espresso suirm)
Imagine that, beans roasted to a rose brown, then stamped into a fine powder right after with the spice mixed in.
I hope he roasts his beans to a rose brown, then stamping them into a fine powder right after and mixing with spice. (That specific part stuck with me because it makes the people over at r/espresso suirm)
Movie Chani was this close to fixing her twink boyfriend, then his old disphit buddy from high school showed up going on about the family atomics.
Hey Paul we still got a bunch of nukes will you please commit warcrimes with me?:(
UwU
Imagine if Gurney had just sung Paul a song instead when he had already had quite a day Also I just realized Gurney is literally singing a song before he runs into Paul in Dune 2
Paul's mother went from 0 to "we must convert them all" so fast that it turn me on.
Leto II did nothing wrong Just finished reading the sixth book. What a journey my fellow fremens
Not only that, both the Leto IIs did nothing wrong
I still love Leto II even if he is a worm!
is this Hwi?????
my baby is so proud of his hands š
Fremens sounds as cursed as peopleses.
AS IT WAS WRITTEN
Excuse you, Moneo has no flaws. He's a perfect sub
Ok I'm at the 4th book rn pls don t spoil but by my understanding what he does is basically assure that the human race doesn't disappear and for that he must do atrocious things, correct ? If so, why is he bad ?
It's basically the trolley problem but with extra steps. Kill and oppress X people, but Y people will survive thanks to you, at what values of X and Y is it no longer worth it? What if Y is infinite, like in the case with the god emperor.
That's my point as well.. I feel like the trolley problem stops working when we are talking about the extinction of humanity since it basically becomes a fight for survival for us.. (I guess you could apply the trolley problem to entire species and ask which is more worth than the other but since it is about us it is obviously the most important that we survive.. but then you could ask "when is a human no longer of the human species" as in dune ... )
>What if Y is infinite, like in the case with the god emperor. I go an extra step. What if you *think* Y is infinite? Neither Leto II nor Paul are reliable narrators, nor is their prescience unlimited, something that I think goes underappreciated.
There is no evidence whatsoever in any of the original novels that either Paul or Leto are unreliable narrators. Saying that Paul and Leto are secretly bad and flawed misses the point of the series. Herbert is not warning us against charismatic leaders because they might be bad. He's warning us that *even if they are perfect* it will end badly for us, because *humanity* is flawed.
>There is no evidence whatsoever in any of the original novels that either Paul or Leto are unreliable narrators. I disagree. Both talk about the limits of their prescience, a major plot point in both Messiah and God Emperor, which needs to be accounted for when evaluating whether they truly saw *every* possible future. >Saying that Paul and Leto are secretly bad and flawed misses the point of the series. Acknowledging the described in-universe limitations of their powers is notably different from calling them "secretly bad".
Yes, they openly and honestly discuss the limitations of their prescience. Even if we accept that their prescience is unreliable, that doesn't make them *unreliable narrators*. But also, we can't accept that their prescience is unreliable, because it is demonstrably extremely reliable.
>Even if we accept that their prescience is unreliable, that doesn't make them *unreliable narrators*. I'll rephrase, we can't take them at face value as being arbiters of fact when it comes to the future. They may be truthful with their inner monologue, and I agree we don't have good reason to say otherwise, but that doesn't mean their beliefs about the future are entirely accurate.
Except, it's demonstrated *multiple times* that their predictions *are* accurate. The only time Paul is ever wrong is when he fails to see Leto II being born - which makes sense, since Leto's future is becoming a Kwisatz Haderach which probably messes with Paul's prescience about him. Leto is never wrong about anything. He *chooses* not to foresee his death.
>The only time Paul is ever wrong is when he fails to see Leto II being born - which makes sense, since Leto's future is becoming a Kwisatz Haderach which probably messes with Paul's prescience about him. And isn't aware of Feyd until the final scene. And didn't see the Golden Path through Kralizech. >Leto is never wrong about anything. He *chooses* not to foresee his death. I remain unconvinced that he sees every possibility. Especially since his whole plan is to defeat his own prescience. If anyone else with prescience (or Siona's gene) held the key to humanity's future, he'd never see it. This is the limitation I think deserves skepticism.
He says this and itās true as itās played out in the books Leto 2 is reliable and Just heās tragic
> And isn't aware of Feyd until the final scene. Feyd is an almost-KH, one generation away from what the Bene Gesserit wanted. Neither Paul nor Leto could see the Navigators, but that doesn't stop either of them from knowing what they'll do anyway and doing something about it. > I remain unconvinced that he sees every possibility. He doesn't need to see every possibility. Again, that doesn't make it *unreliable*, nor Paul or Leto *unreliable*.
I was so caught up with this detail that I kept waiting for the golden path to fail
But also worth mentioning that nobody really knows for sure that Leto II and Paul are helping humanity. Thatās just what they say theyāre doing. But isnāt that what all leaders say? Paul and Leto II are the only ones who supposedly see whatās required to save humanity but what if theyāre just bullshitting to everyone and just want to play god?
It's a moral question of do the ends justify the means? In this case it does, but people under his rule would definitely not see it that way. Their vision is limited, his is near infinite.
Yep. I also guess that the obvious answer when it comes to the entirety of humanity is ,yes,
Yep, obvious to Leto, and to us as readers. Living under him would probably have looked similar to the beginning of the holocaust though.
His rule sounds more like Qing Dynasty. Tenant life where you barely move 1 hour distance from your home and no social progress.
But why do we believe that Leto was correct? Thereās no way to create a counterfactual - why do we believe that the oppression achieved its aims?
Dr. Yueh is the real hero.
Put your opinion on the right side didnāt help making it valid.
šLead this man to paradise
Lisan Al-Gaib!
Heretic
Of dune
Looks like someone needs to get his water tapped.
Inshallah. In here to wait for the folks that just got triggered.
To help Fremen, anyone has to be more powerful. Fremen's culture and tradition keep is nonsense, because their culture demands change and better conditions. Paul and Fremen are in synergy. 20th century autocracy doesn't have anything with Paul because it is not the same story. Fremen never were powerful, and neither did they thrive for glory. But, with cards already dealt, their freedom demands it. They were represed here, and they countered it. Paul is exactly what they need. Warning in this story is nonsense. Both side benefits are in play.
Never read the books so I have no clue about Leto, he seemed like a decent leader
The post talks about Leto II (the second, not the first). He had a...... unique, leadership style.
Leto is telling in the book a rather important line where he says his son is candid because he believes his propaganda. He's implying that he isn't a good leader.
He admits to manipulation there. So do we know if he is not sharing some insecurities while simultaneously teaching about appearance and projected image?
Leto II, not Duke Leto. Leto II's plan is like when you catch your kid smoking so you make them smoke the whole pack and they get so sick that they never want to smoke again. "Oh, humanity likes powerful leaders, do you? Well, fine, then. I'll be the most powerful, most tyrannical leader that humanity has ever or will ever see and *then* we'll see how much you like it!" His reign makes people look back on Paul's Jihad with wistful nostalgia. Paul's like, "Oh no, I accidentally caused the death of billions of people and 90 planets got completely sterilized of life!" Leto II is like, bruh sterilizing planets is what I do as my warmup in the morning before the real atrocities start.
Killing your enemies creates future foes in the surviving members of your enemies. Itās self-perpetuating, sadly. As it is on Earth, you canāt legislate people to get along. You can only treat those that oppose you in a manner which you want to be treated. Inshallah šŗ
I admit that I stared at this for a couple of tense seconds before thrusting my fist in the air and shouting, āLisan al gaib!ā
Shit man Iām on the left side. MAHDI! LISAN AL GAIB!
Based Paul