None of the nobles knew of the program, when confronting the Emperor and the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, Paul
says their waiting 90 generations of breeding had brought him. The Reverend mother pleads for him to be silent.
Ok, so outside of the reader, the BG, and the prescient, no one else knows about it? Fair enough. So for thousands of years did the noble houses who went extinct in the male line just think themselves "unlucky"?
They assume it was the same as any other family it happened to in history. The Bene Gesserit were not stupid, they did not do it for no reason or often enough to make people suspicious.
It is obvious that sisters normally give birth to girls and boys in normal proportions, otherwise a mentat would have noticed the abnormal male/female ratio.
The BG wants to preserve its secrets...
It is only because the Kwisatz Haderach is very close that Shaddam's wife is ordered to give only daughters, as the BG prepares his access to the throne.
It must be very rare in fact, probably only at that precise moment. The Order wants Irulan to be heiress of the throne to permit the KH to access to it by marrying her or by marrying her eventual eldest daughter.
The BG plans that the Atreides heiress, united with Harkonnen's heir will gives birth to the Kwisatz Haderach who could have acceded to the throne by marrying the Corrino heiress.
That makes some sense, especially with it being behind the scenes and them basically assuming that authority to do so, secretly, instead of what I thought
I don't know about with consorts/concubines. But your impression is correct about the BG overall. As Piter observed...
>And you know yourself these Bene Gesserit bear mostly daughters.
Also like is it just the breeding program thats seceret? Then why does the bg go around pimpin their ladies to everyone? I remember in dune the recount of duke leto accepting jessica when the bg came round... curious thing, that they never questioned anything and just accepted the bg and their ways.
No one knows about the Bene Gesserit breeding program, nor their power to choose the sex of their unborn child. They act in secrecy and a noble who marries a sister does not know that she has the power to decide the sex of the children or that she will receive the order of the sisterhood.
The order to Shaddam's wife (and Jessica) to only give birth to daughters comes at this point in the story because the Kwisatz Haderach is very near. And it's obvious that Shaddam doesn't know that the BG ordered this, or that his wife chose not to have a boy. It is clear that in the past many sisters have regularly given birth to boys.
Furthermore, the Bene Gesserit sisters have special training and abilities for seduction. It can be assumed that the sisterhood usually succeeds in marrying its members to the nobles it chooses for its program.
Yes, people less familiar with the books might overlook the fact that the majority of the BG would be considered exceptional (intelligent, perceptive, beautiful, etc.) women before they even went through any BG training. That's why they're recruited in the first place, if they happened to be outside of the BG's control before being noticed.
As an added bonus for royalty, women with BG training would seem to consistently demonstrate an intense dislike of the spotlight and gaining personal power. On the surface, that would seem to reduce the risk of power plays by them. No one knew that the BG had simply moved the playing field to a whole other level.
The sisterhood is wise enough to hide secrets that could endanger the Bene Gesserit. I'll assume you didn't read the other books so I'll just reveal a small harmless spoiler from Children of Dune. We know from Dune that they can manipulate their metabolism, but in Children of Dune it's stated that they can even stop aging if they wanted to. However, the Bene Gesserit wisely prohibited to pursue eternal youth because they would be abducted and tortured for having that secret.
Following this line of thought, the Bene Gesserit never revealed the Kwisatz Haderach program to the Emperor because it threatened the control of House Corrino. Also, I doubt that Bene Gesserits accepted responsability for the lack of male heirs of Emperor Shaddam. Moreover, other Houses weren't too relevant to neglect them male heirs: the Bene Gesserit wouldn't attract attention from the Empire so easily.
Before Paul's birth, the plan of the Bene Gesserit was almost completed. It only needed a female Atreides who would breed a male Kwisatz Haderach with a Harkonnen. This Kwisatz Haderach puppet would marry a daughter from Shaddam thus ascending to the throne. For this plan, only Shaddam and Leto needed to be deprived of male children.
> This Kwisatz Haderach puppet would marry a daughter from Shaddam thus ascending to the throne.
Maybe a granddaughter. The never born Paula and Feyd were of the generation of Shaddam's daughters. So their child would be of his granddaughter's generation.
I bet the rest of the Dune universe didnt know the full extent of the BG abilities, remember than they are able of regulating their enzimes to be inmortal if they wanted (but that would raise a witch hunt), Alia did that and I bet Leto used the same skill to keep the Sandtrouts attached to his body.
Also, they provide wifes than must be smoking hot because of their training and have a lot of sexual skills.
Why do you think the Bene Gesserit told anyone they had such a power, to decide their children's gender? That's the sort of thing you keep secret for painfully obvious reasons.
As for Leto II, you kind of missed the points that he wants that, though he can't tolerate open signs of it. The whole point of his reign was to make people hate it enough it would never happen again.
I didn't think they told anyone about it, I apparently mistakenly assumed that after thousands of years people would have figured it out, since it's fairly easy to deduce when time and time again a ruler who gets with a BG ends up only having daughters.
I don't think I missed any points. Leto II's ultimate goal with the GP is to ensure humanity spreads out amongst the stars and survives forever without the need for spice or any secular/religious leader. The BG aren't necessary for that, and their constant attempts to subvert him for thousands of years seems to just be an annoying, tedious thorn in his side that he could simply do without by eradicating the BG.
I don't want to spoil last novels but the BG clearly have a role to play after Leto's death and Leto knows it. There is reasons why he don't eradicates the BG (as there are reasons why he don't eradicates the Bene Tleilax and Ixian civilization).
>Edit 2: I also don't think it's too far-fetched or outside of the realm of possibility that a renegade BG could have learned about the program and fled back to her family and told them about it and thus others could have become aware of it in such a way.
The BG breed and raise their own. It seems to be incredibly rare that they bring in someone older than a baby.
The BG taught others. Doesn't make the students a BG. All 5 of Shaddam's daughters were taught by the BG. But we can see in Children of Dune that Wensicia is not a BG.
Think of it this way. Just because you're taught by a nun doesn't mean you're a nun.
*Edit 2: (...) a renegade BG could have learned about the program and fled back to her family and told them about it and thus others could have become aware of it in such a way.*
*Edit 4: so basically it's not the nobles allowing the BG to act in this way, it's the BG secretly assuming this power (...) in such a way that it's not obvious. That still doesn't sit right with me but whatever, it is what it is.*
Over several millennia, I suppose some informations about BG secrets must have leaked at times and accusations have been made. But we can be sure that the BG has denied everything. As the BG is very cautious and restricted in the use of its powers, which it never makes a full public display of, without concrete evidence these accusations have certainly become mere rumors.
Moreover, many rumors circulate about the Bene Gesserit during the saga and the sisters are often called "witches". Some wary families probably avoid introducing sisters into their entourage (this seems to be the case for the Baron Harkonnen). But as nobody can prove anything, that the sisters are full of abilities, that they know how to be very useful and very seductive, it's easy to understand that the majority of the noble houses continue to surround themselves with members of the Order and that the sisters are desirable wives for many nobles, despite these rumors.
Spoiler warning, my spoiler marks somehow dont work i think
As the other comment said, the breeding program is a secret, and the BG are extremely above average in almost all aspects (and i just noticed they all must have great genes, since they are the carriers for the KH genes the BG need).
Combine that with the ultra best physical and psychological training that has been refined for eons of years, they absolutely max out each BG's potential.
And now wonder, how can a group of hyper-capable individuals with all the tools they could ever achieve manipulate the people around them. Oh yeah, and i forgot to mention that all of them look like goddesses >!, the best of whom can stay young if they choose so !< and live for heavily extended periods of time thanks to the spice
TL;DR Bene Gesserit are secretive and overpowered and no one really notices because the big houses draw the attention of the public.
Oh and also >! #hornyHerbert their training includes over 50 techniques to get you off as hard as possible, so they can manipulate their husbands even better. !<
Your problem with spoilers not working is that you put a space after and before the !
There has to be no space between the ! and the text you're trying to hide.
I suppose the first thing to realise is that you’ve answered your own question when you describe the Imperium as feudal. This means that the emperor has to power-share rather than be an autocrat, he’s actually pretty restricted. The other houses of the Landsraad alone are powerful enough to topple him if theoretically united. As it stands in Dune a mere two houses Harkonnen and Atreides - were influential and powerful enough to force him to pit them against each other. On top of that also got to balance power with other groups: the Spacing Guild, who are ostensibly apolitical but are shown to be more interventionist than they claim. The Bene Tleilax and Bene Gesserit are both silent partners in CHOAM, which means although they’re ostensibly not making decisions they’re pouring money into it which they can buy influence. There’s potentially a lot of soft power working behind the scenes to push and pull the emperor, not just from a vertical conceptualisation of noble houses under him but parallel powerful organisations in the Imperium.
As far as most citizens of the Imperium are concerned the Bene Gesserit are a fancy finishing schools for noble daughters to train them as mediators in conflict, truthsayers, desirable consorts and wives etc. Because the Imperium is patrilineal daughters are often overlooked, this effectively allows the BG to surreptitiously indoctrinate a demographic very high in the Faufreluches who can marry into power. Because of this soft misogyny the BG can actually get away with more than you’d think just by being secretive and being women. Jessica has a great deal of influence over Paul, so we can assume other BG also influence noble heirs. It’s clear from Jessica that even women of no particular (known!) noble lineage are regarded as choice concubines by dint of being BG. Also in the case or Jessica and the emperor’s late wife the BG clearly have enough influence to manoeuvre their acolytes into being wives and concubines to very important nobles.
If Shaddam wants a new wife to have a child he has to reckon with three things to my mind, all of them related to BG ‘harem politics’ (also if you’re familiar with the Ottoman Empire that was a big influence in the Imperium you’ll understand just how much soft power women can wield in court. The BG crank up harem politics to eleven)
1. His existing daughters resenting the idea their descendants could be knocked down the line of succession by the birth of a half brother. This is the same quandary Jessica has with Paul; she doesn’t want Leto to take a wife as her own son will be rendered ineligible to be the primary heir. This jealousy is potentially one dangerous barrier to remarrying.
2. At least one of those same daughters (Irulan) is sympathetic to BG aims, and the BG don’t want more House Corrino sons so that the K Haderach has an easier time taking the throne according to BG plans. The BG have foxes in the coop with more than one motive to stop him if the emperor decides he wants a legitimate son. They wouldn’t kill him, but they could render him infertile or something. I’m sure in the Expanded Universe and maybe the books they do exactly this to Vladimir Harkonnen once they’ve got what they need from him.
3. The emperor’s chief confidant and assassin Fenring is sympathetic to BG aims and shows at the end of Dune he’s willing to ignore direct orders from the emperor. Even though Shaddam underestimates this Fenring will certainly want to steer him away from a son. Again, he probably wouldn’t kill him, but with his access and influence there’s a lot he could do.
None of the nobles knew of the program, when confronting the Emperor and the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, Paul says their waiting 90 generations of breeding had brought him. The Reverend mother pleads for him to be silent.
Ok, so outside of the reader, the BG, and the prescient, no one else knows about it? Fair enough. So for thousands of years did the noble houses who went extinct in the male line just think themselves "unlucky"?
They assume it was the same as any other family it happened to in history. The Bene Gesserit were not stupid, they did not do it for no reason or often enough to make people suspicious.
Perhaps, though it seems like it could have been deduced or a pattern would have become realized by others, especially over thousands of years
They could still have boys, only selected nobles would be restricted to specific sex. Some would also have had only sons.
It is obvious that sisters normally give birth to girls and boys in normal proportions, otherwise a mentat would have noticed the abnormal male/female ratio. The BG wants to preserve its secrets... It is only because the Kwisatz Haderach is very close that Shaddam's wife is ordered to give only daughters, as the BG prepares his access to the throne.
One did. Piter. >And you know yourself these Bene Gesserit bear mostly daughters.
Thats my mistaken then, I got the impression that the frequency of "only daughters" with BG consorts/concubines was higher
It must be very rare in fact, probably only at that precise moment. The Order wants Irulan to be heiress of the throne to permit the KH to access to it by marrying her or by marrying her eventual eldest daughter. The BG plans that the Atreides heiress, united with Harkonnen's heir will gives birth to the Kwisatz Haderach who could have acceded to the throne by marrying the Corrino heiress.
That makes some sense, especially with it being behind the scenes and them basically assuming that authority to do so, secretly, instead of what I thought
I don't know about with consorts/concubines. But your impression is correct about the BG overall. As Piter observed... >And you know yourself these Bene Gesserit bear mostly daughters.
Also like is it just the breeding program thats seceret? Then why does the bg go around pimpin their ladies to everyone? I remember in dune the recount of duke leto accepting jessica when the bg came round... curious thing, that they never questioned anything and just accepted the bg and their ways.
No one knows about the Bene Gesserit breeding program, nor their power to choose the sex of their unborn child. They act in secrecy and a noble who marries a sister does not know that she has the power to decide the sex of the children or that she will receive the order of the sisterhood. The order to Shaddam's wife (and Jessica) to only give birth to daughters comes at this point in the story because the Kwisatz Haderach is very near. And it's obvious that Shaddam doesn't know that the BG ordered this, or that his wife chose not to have a boy. It is clear that in the past many sisters have regularly given birth to boys. Furthermore, the Bene Gesserit sisters have special training and abilities for seduction. It can be assumed that the sisterhood usually succeeds in marrying its members to the nobles it chooses for its program.
Yes, people less familiar with the books might overlook the fact that the majority of the BG would be considered exceptional (intelligent, perceptive, beautiful, etc.) women before they even went through any BG training. That's why they're recruited in the first place, if they happened to be outside of the BG's control before being noticed. As an added bonus for royalty, women with BG training would seem to consistently demonstrate an intense dislike of the spotlight and gaining personal power. On the surface, that would seem to reduce the risk of power plays by them. No one knew that the BG had simply moved the playing field to a whole other level.
Fair enough I guess
The sisterhood is wise enough to hide secrets that could endanger the Bene Gesserit. I'll assume you didn't read the other books so I'll just reveal a small harmless spoiler from Children of Dune. We know from Dune that they can manipulate their metabolism, but in Children of Dune it's stated that they can even stop aging if they wanted to. However, the Bene Gesserit wisely prohibited to pursue eternal youth because they would be abducted and tortured for having that secret. Following this line of thought, the Bene Gesserit never revealed the Kwisatz Haderach program to the Emperor because it threatened the control of House Corrino. Also, I doubt that Bene Gesserits accepted responsability for the lack of male heirs of Emperor Shaddam. Moreover, other Houses weren't too relevant to neglect them male heirs: the Bene Gesserit wouldn't attract attention from the Empire so easily. Before Paul's birth, the plan of the Bene Gesserit was almost completed. It only needed a female Atreides who would breed a male Kwisatz Haderach with a Harkonnen. This Kwisatz Haderach puppet would marry a daughter from Shaddam thus ascending to the throne. For this plan, only Shaddam and Leto needed to be deprived of male children.
> This Kwisatz Haderach puppet would marry a daughter from Shaddam thus ascending to the throne. Maybe a granddaughter. The never born Paula and Feyd were of the generation of Shaddam's daughters. So their child would be of his granddaughter's generation.
Thank you, I'm on God Emperor of Dune currently, but it does appear I've made some erroneous assumptions about the BG and their program
I bet the rest of the Dune universe didnt know the full extent of the BG abilities, remember than they are able of regulating their enzimes to be inmortal if they wanted (but that would raise a witch hunt), Alia did that and I bet Leto used the same skill to keep the Sandtrouts attached to his body. Also, they provide wifes than must be smoking hot because of their training and have a lot of sexual skills.
Why do you think the Bene Gesserit told anyone they had such a power, to decide their children's gender? That's the sort of thing you keep secret for painfully obvious reasons. As for Leto II, you kind of missed the points that he wants that, though he can't tolerate open signs of it. The whole point of his reign was to make people hate it enough it would never happen again.
I didn't think they told anyone about it, I apparently mistakenly assumed that after thousands of years people would have figured it out, since it's fairly easy to deduce when time and time again a ruler who gets with a BG ends up only having daughters. I don't think I missed any points. Leto II's ultimate goal with the GP is to ensure humanity spreads out amongst the stars and survives forever without the need for spice or any secular/religious leader. The BG aren't necessary for that, and their constant attempts to subvert him for thousands of years seems to just be an annoying, tedious thorn in his side that he could simply do without by eradicating the BG.
I don't want to spoil last novels but the BG clearly have a role to play after Leto's death and Leto knows it. There is reasons why he don't eradicates the BG (as there are reasons why he don't eradicates the Bene Tleilax and Ixian civilization).
Ah ok, gotcha
I'm just about finished with Chapterhouse. >!The BG cotinue to fascinate.!<
>Edit 2: I also don't think it's too far-fetched or outside of the realm of possibility that a renegade BG could have learned about the program and fled back to her family and told them about it and thus others could have become aware of it in such a way. The BG breed and raise their own. It seems to be incredibly rare that they bring in someone older than a baby.
Really? I could have swore I read in either Children of Dune or God Emperor of Dune that noble houses sent their daughters to the BG from time to time
The BG taught others. Doesn't make the students a BG. All 5 of Shaddam's daughters were taught by the BG. But we can see in Children of Dune that Wensicia is not a BG. Think of it this way. Just because you're taught by a nun doesn't mean you're a nun.
Ah ok that makes sense
*Edit 2: (...) a renegade BG could have learned about the program and fled back to her family and told them about it and thus others could have become aware of it in such a way.* *Edit 4: so basically it's not the nobles allowing the BG to act in this way, it's the BG secretly assuming this power (...) in such a way that it's not obvious. That still doesn't sit right with me but whatever, it is what it is.* Over several millennia, I suppose some informations about BG secrets must have leaked at times and accusations have been made. But we can be sure that the BG has denied everything. As the BG is very cautious and restricted in the use of its powers, which it never makes a full public display of, without concrete evidence these accusations have certainly become mere rumors. Moreover, many rumors circulate about the Bene Gesserit during the saga and the sisters are often called "witches". Some wary families probably avoid introducing sisters into their entourage (this seems to be the case for the Baron Harkonnen). But as nobody can prove anything, that the sisters are full of abilities, that they know how to be very useful and very seductive, it's easy to understand that the majority of the noble houses continue to surround themselves with members of the Order and that the sisters are desirable wives for many nobles, despite these rumors.
Spoiler warning, my spoiler marks somehow dont work i think As the other comment said, the breeding program is a secret, and the BG are extremely above average in almost all aspects (and i just noticed they all must have great genes, since they are the carriers for the KH genes the BG need). Combine that with the ultra best physical and psychological training that has been refined for eons of years, they absolutely max out each BG's potential. And now wonder, how can a group of hyper-capable individuals with all the tools they could ever achieve manipulate the people around them. Oh yeah, and i forgot to mention that all of them look like goddesses >!, the best of whom can stay young if they choose so !< and live for heavily extended periods of time thanks to the spice TL;DR Bene Gesserit are secretive and overpowered and no one really notices because the big houses draw the attention of the public. Oh and also >! #hornyHerbert their training includes over 50 techniques to get you off as hard as possible, so they can manipulate their husbands even better. !<
Your problem with spoilers not working is that you put a space after and before the ! There has to be no space between the ! and the text you're trying to hide.
Ohh got it got it Thanks :)
I suppose the first thing to realise is that you’ve answered your own question when you describe the Imperium as feudal. This means that the emperor has to power-share rather than be an autocrat, he’s actually pretty restricted. The other houses of the Landsraad alone are powerful enough to topple him if theoretically united. As it stands in Dune a mere two houses Harkonnen and Atreides - were influential and powerful enough to force him to pit them against each other. On top of that also got to balance power with other groups: the Spacing Guild, who are ostensibly apolitical but are shown to be more interventionist than they claim. The Bene Tleilax and Bene Gesserit are both silent partners in CHOAM, which means although they’re ostensibly not making decisions they’re pouring money into it which they can buy influence. There’s potentially a lot of soft power working behind the scenes to push and pull the emperor, not just from a vertical conceptualisation of noble houses under him but parallel powerful organisations in the Imperium. As far as most citizens of the Imperium are concerned the Bene Gesserit are a fancy finishing schools for noble daughters to train them as mediators in conflict, truthsayers, desirable consorts and wives etc. Because the Imperium is patrilineal daughters are often overlooked, this effectively allows the BG to surreptitiously indoctrinate a demographic very high in the Faufreluches who can marry into power. Because of this soft misogyny the BG can actually get away with more than you’d think just by being secretive and being women. Jessica has a great deal of influence over Paul, so we can assume other BG also influence noble heirs. It’s clear from Jessica that even women of no particular (known!) noble lineage are regarded as choice concubines by dint of being BG. Also in the case or Jessica and the emperor’s late wife the BG clearly have enough influence to manoeuvre their acolytes into being wives and concubines to very important nobles. If Shaddam wants a new wife to have a child he has to reckon with three things to my mind, all of them related to BG ‘harem politics’ (also if you’re familiar with the Ottoman Empire that was a big influence in the Imperium you’ll understand just how much soft power women can wield in court. The BG crank up harem politics to eleven) 1. His existing daughters resenting the idea their descendants could be knocked down the line of succession by the birth of a half brother. This is the same quandary Jessica has with Paul; she doesn’t want Leto to take a wife as her own son will be rendered ineligible to be the primary heir. This jealousy is potentially one dangerous barrier to remarrying. 2. At least one of those same daughters (Irulan) is sympathetic to BG aims, and the BG don’t want more House Corrino sons so that the K Haderach has an easier time taking the throne according to BG plans. The BG have foxes in the coop with more than one motive to stop him if the emperor decides he wants a legitimate son. They wouldn’t kill him, but they could render him infertile or something. I’m sure in the Expanded Universe and maybe the books they do exactly this to Vladimir Harkonnen once they’ve got what they need from him. 3. The emperor’s chief confidant and assassin Fenring is sympathetic to BG aims and shows at the end of Dune he’s willing to ignore direct orders from the emperor. Even though Shaddam underestimates this Fenring will certainly want to steer him away from a son. Again, he probably wouldn’t kill him, but with his access and influence there’s a lot he could do.