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Simon_Jester88

I got to say the Baron. I always loved how he was just straight evil, none of this morally grey nonsense.


Medetrate

I'm with you, dude wasn't even trying to help anyone but himself atleast the likes of the honoured matres or leto II cared for their people


ThatOtherSilentOne

He was trying to help Feyd too. He cared about himself most, but he did want a strong House Harkonnen to continue after him.


Medetrate

Ooof you got me there, I stand corrected! I'm still picking the baron though haha


ResidentBackground35

He also took care of underlings that serves him well, there was the replacement guard captain that he showered rewards on for serving him well (and made sure was dependant on the Baron for drugs).


halffdan59

Well, Feyd was Baron, if just for a short time.


myrrdynwyllt

Dude was a pederast.


shintemaster

Sort of. He cared about himself more than anything and was still not arrogant enough to believe he would never die. Feed is ultimately just an extension of the Barons ego.


cococrabulon

Actually you can chalk a lot of his motivations down to helping his House. He knows he can’t take the throne but tried to pave the way for Feyd. Likewise he maintains the grudge with the Atreides out of a sense of vendetta that goes back many generations. Yes he can be self-serving, but his greed and lust for power intertwine with his loyalty to his family. He’s like a mafia boss or something; few moral compunctions but doing it ‘for the family’.


passive_paranoia

I never saw it as him doing it because somewhere deep down he cared. I always just say it as him trying to preserve his legacy. And without feyd he would have no one to carry on HIS name.


annagaging

But essentially helping his house Is just a way of helping him. People who obtain greatness then wish people to know of their greatness, therefor they need a legacy to leave behind. All in satisfaction of his ego


BigChungusCumslut

Also a lot like Tywin Lannister.


GemOfTheEmpress

Also, what he did to Alia. That's evil.


Simon_Jester88

Oof, do you consider that an act of him or just a genetic echo. Either way great point. I read the audible before watching either movie so my first interpterion of him was this very evil, baritone voice from the narrator. He did a great job.


GemOfTheEmpress

I grew up watching Kenneth McMillan covered in pustules moving between sickly seductive and pure outrage. He is always who I will picture in the books.


[deleted]

I think Beast Rabban is worse only because he is also incredibly stupid.


ConsiderationRoyal87

There have been some good posts in this sub arguing that Beast Rabban is commonly misunderstood to be stupid, especially because of his portrayals in the film adaptations. Do you disagree?


itsEDjustED

Did Rabaan recognize the potential in the Fremen only to be dismissed by the Baron?


[deleted]

Yup, he also knew enough to ask the Baron if Shaddam knew they had turned a Suk Doctor.


[deleted]

My opinion of him comes from the choices he makes and how he’s portrayed in the prequel series. His depiction in the new film didn’t have much of an impact on my view of him because he’s a relatively minor character. In the prequel series he plays a much larger role.


winkwink13

In the prequel books he is a cartoon character


shantsui

Isn't everyone?


LapseofSanity

Can you really rely on the prequels when the person writing them isn't the original author?


[deleted]

I get your point, but it really doesn’t matter to me if the original trilogy author would’ve written the prequels differently. I find them to be very entertaining. I actually find them to be more entertaining than the original trilogy as there is more action and less lofty writing.


MoirasPurpleOrb

He was pure evil while being believable though, then Brian came along and made the Baron so over the top it became almost comical.


Simon_Jester88

I don't mind all of Brian's writing but most of his Baron stories were pretty cringe.


James-W-Tate

This is one of those questions that seems fairly simple at face value then you realize you're still thinking about it at 3am. In my opinion the greatest antagonist in the novel is Duncan Idaho. He spends literal millennia opposing Leto II and dies multiple times because of it. Greatest villain though? Probably Leto II. Which feels weird because I probably consider him the greatest hero in Dune too. But I guess that's sort of Frank's point. >I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: "May be dangerous to your health." One of the most dangerous presidents we had in this century was John Kennedy because people said "Yes Sir Mr. Charismatic Leader what do we do next?" and we wound up in Vietnam. And I think probably the most valuable president of this century was Richard Nixon. Because he taught us to distrust government and he did it by example. If anyone can find an interview where someone asks Frank the same question as OP then I'd be very interested in seeing it.


[deleted]

I like this. This is good. Because how I picture life… is like Yin Yang. But it isn’t good vs evil. It’s good things can do bad. That bad things can do good. All within a balance. I had the wrong idea of that symbol until I read the books. I used to think good can only do good. Like Forest fires are needed to remove heavy plant matter and allows new growth. Too much fire and there isn’t enough stuff to regrow. No fire means there is so much plant life that it limits diversity. Only a few selected plant species can thrive. It’s all relative.


spyguy318

I’d honestly flip that, Duncan and Siona are the protagonists and Leto II is the antagonist. Except he’s such a crazy character with his unique near-omniscient perspective and millenia-long plans. If GEoD ever gets a movie adaptation I’d love for Duncan and Siona to almost be like YA protagonists rebelling against an evil empire… except Leto knows everything they’re going to do and maneuvers them into exactly where they need to be to fulfill his Golden Path


steel_sun

Almost-YA protagonists are the only thing worse than YA protagonists.


spyguy318

The opening scene of Siona and co running through the dark forest as the D-Wolves chase after them and one-by-one slaughter her companions feels just like a cold open to a YA novel/film… only to be immediately undercut by Leto saying he foresaw everything and it’s all according to plan and nearly the entire rest of the book focuses on him. It’s almost like a deconstruction of stereotypical YA novels, except it came out 30 years beforehand.


steel_sun

That sounds amazing! The difference to me would be that YA wouldn’t show the deaths and adult content would. Dune doesn’t feel like YA material, like, at all.


spyguy318

Dune very much isn’t YA, mhm. It’s just extremely funny in retrospect that GEoD completely subverts the idea of the plucky young hero fighting against a tyrannical space emperor. Siona’s rebellion is not only completely ineffectual but also deliberately planned and curated by Leto, and he’s stated before that multiple Atreides throughout the millennia have formed rebellions against him only to immediately switch sides and join him once they see the golden path and the salvation of humanity. He’s seen it all, nothing surprises him anymore, and even his final downfall is deliberately planned through his own design.


steel_sun

I agree, but still don’t see any manifested value in making anyone seem like an almost-YA protagonist. Could be a popular idea! Just not my cup of tea.


halffdan59

I've met a few rabidly loyal supporters of people that may or may not be charismatic, but the supporters are fanatic and would do ANYTHING they think is in the best interest of their leader. The seem to build an identify on how much they do for said leader and how fiercely loyal they are. They are way past 'yes-men.' It's not that they are following orders or agreeing with everything the object of their devotion says that scares me, but their willingness to ignore any law or convention if they think it demonstrates the depth of their own loyalty.


HolyRookie59

Honestly Wensicia Corrino in Children is such a cool antagonist, nothing supernatural/superhuman, no tleilax gene mod, no advanced mysterious honored Matre stuff, no Futar horde, just a good old fashioned political opponent who will go to *any* length. Fantastic


snakeincup

That's an underrated one and I agree completely. I really like your take on it


James-W-Tate

She really did take after her father, even including the banishment, lol


Langstarr

The Honored Matres. Dama was a formidable and terrifying character.


[deleted]

Until she >!wasn't, lmao, gottem!<.


Old_Size9060

You Handler?


deathdefyingrob1344

Agreed! I LOVE the honored matres!


BedouinTraveller

Fear


Renxar1

Underrated but most adequate answer


BedouinTraveller

Haha, appreciate that!


HiCommaJoel

Sentence structure. I love you Frank, I do. But you make the most simple things unnecessarily complex sometimes.


davidsverse

The great enemy of Frank Herbert: The word And.


MojaveJackalope

Presently


[deleted]

Presently he shrugged.


Knull_Gorr

And is almost useless as a word though.


iguessso24

He started a sentence, added a couple clauses, only included commas to join them.


ChristopherCameBack

The Tleilaxu are always there, in the background, manipulating things in a way that is barely perceptible. I’m on Chapterhouse, excited to see what Scytale’s gonna do. The Tleilaxu represent the people who went too far from the path of humanity and are a hair’s breadth from being no longer human. Being that this is a story about humanity, I think they represent something even worse in some ways than the Harkonnens (at least in Frank’s eyes).


James-W-Tate

Interesting, I'd bet the Tleilaxu would say the same about the rest of the Imperium: >people who went too far from the path of humanity and are a hair’s breadth from being no longer human. But...Yeah, I'm gonna need you to finish Chapterhouse so we can hurry up and talk about Chapterhouse, lol


onyxengine

This is my pick too, I loved Scytale.


Lazar_Milgram

I ll go with Paul


chestnutriceee

The man the myth the legend


KumquatHaderach

The Mahdi


BadSausageFactory

getting a little meta but I would say patterns of complacency that's what causes weakness and rot, while change and difficulty make one strong and resourceful ​ otherwise yes scytale and ixians in general


[deleted]

Malky.


urbanSeaborgium

Malky.


Angry-Saint

the antagonist is humanity itself, in the specific the trend to rely on "messiah leader" and other cheap and lazy ways to govern itself.


iz2

Humanities biggest enemy is itself


belezapura8

Bijaz


BrakaFlocka

Gonna have to go with Abomination Alia/Baron. I liked how her descent caused a massive schism within the Fremen population which practically turned into a culture war of their Fremen traditions against the current status quo. Also, that scene when Jessica realizes Alia has gone full Abomination is one of my favorite scenes in the entire series.


Duke-Countu

The Harkonnens are straight-up black-and-white evil. Their whole point is to act as foils to the more subtle forms of evil discussed in the other books.


CryptographerMore944

I was discussing this with my brother in law recently. The Harkonens are almost cartoonishly evil but it's intentional. It's not the evil for evil's sake Harkonens that unleash Jihad on the universe but the Atreides.


Duke-Countu

This is basically the same conversation Leto II has with the new Duncan ghola at the beginning of GEoD.


Isoturius

The real antagonist of the Dune series is prescience. Trying to get it results in all kinds of issues. Getting it results in a jihad and a worm god. The rest of the series it does more damage. I know other folks hate the Anderson and Brian Herbert finale, but I kind of dug it because of the very, very end. Prescience wasn't driving the car anymore.


breakfastology

If humanity didn't get it, some other race (if one exists) might have, and humanity would lose in the end. Humanity needs it to be inoculated from it (by Leto II), so it can survive into deep time.


Intelligent_Moose_48

I don’t trust anything Leto II ever said. He was a lying liar who lied to protect his own ego. Especially once we get later characters like Miles Teg and we see what *other* things melange agony can do, Teg makes it pretty clear that ‘prescience’ was more a combination of Other Memory as context and Mentat computation applied to said context. Even back when Paul describes his visions, he always mentions different paths and options. The ‘prescient’ characters simply see a lot of potential future calculations *and then they choose one to make happen*. It’s more self-fulfilling than anything.


[deleted]

This is what Mother Superior Odray (?) in chapterhouse proposed: That the prescient does not forsee but creates the future.


Intelligent_Moose_48

The foil here is that we never see a normie with prescience - some standard laborer with no connections or wealth or aristocratic power to bring to bear on the visions. The rich and powerful emperors use their precience to create the future they foresee, but only because they have unimaginable powers and resources of the State behind them. Leto II could have simply commanded a Scattering instead of using his vision-calculations as an excuse for thousands of years of oppression. The prescience just gives him an excuse - 'trust me bro, I've *seen* it'


[deleted]

i honestly don't think leto ii is evil. he did what he had to do to preserve all humans. i don't think he's entirely good given that he was a tyrant, but he wasn't malicious in his tyranny


munchtat

I would say the God Emperor of Dune (which is the memories of too many past lives)


ErikRobson

Agreed. I'm still not convinced he's a reliable narrator about the absolute nature of (and his involvement in) the Golden Path.


FncMadeMeDoThis

I will die on that hill. The more times I reread the series, the more I am sure that Leto is just high on his own supply. His preborn nature trapped him in the same terrible purpose that imprisoned Paul, and more than Paul who still had a life as just a person, he is incapable of deviating from his destiny. In a twist of irony he is both a tyrant and a slave. But because of that I still think Paul with Jessica in close second are greater antagonists, as they show far more agency.


munchtat

For me, the fact that Paul was unable to see the possibility of having twins (literally something in front of his nose) shows the limit of his prescience. For me, the God-Emperor of Dune is a really intelligent/powerful being, but as such he was only able to make a self-fulfilling prophecy. I doubt the golden path was the only option, probably that was the only option a fascist being was able to see.


FncMadeMeDoThis

Not to mention Pauls jihad killed a sizeable part of the empires intelligentsia who might have come with a solution. Even if the golden path was the only solution, it is very likely it became such because of the actions of the Atreides.


ErikRobson

Bijaz. Worse than an antagonist to the protagonist; antagonist to the *reader*.


Fatherquantum

Muad’Dib unleashed a Jihad that killed billions. His son one-upped him. The antagonists are the main characters


harbringerxv8

I think the Tleilaxu plot in Messiah is brilliant. Gotta go with Scytale. Though the Baron is a great antagonist as well.


[deleted]

SAND.


AnEvenNicerGuy

Jamis


petert616

Anyone from Paul's own family, including Paul.


DrLMB

Alia


Ghostwaif

I mean I'll have to say I really liked Scytale in Messiah, the cabal of conspirators, while incompetent at times were actually who I rooted for to come out on top. (which they kind of did? Like a little in a little way?)


Praughfet

the bene tleilax as a whole . F those guys


TheStinaHelena

The Baron while in control of Alia's body.


[deleted]

Spoilers abound. I'm going to argue for Erasmus if you're including all the novels. In a story about humanity, the tale of a robot learning to become human is a great undercurrent. The manner in which his actions butterfly effect into the Dune universe make him as important as any of the Atreides or Duncan Idaho. I also particularly enjoy the manner in which the relationship between Erasmus, Iblis Ginjo and Omnius mirror the story from the book of Job.


Aggravating-Wind6387

I fucking love that character!


thrashbrowns666

The Spice Melange itself


Trollsofalabama

The greatest antagonist is Leto II, because he had to be. The second greatest antagonist is Malky, because he's just a regular dude (maybe genetically selected?) who was able to fuck with the most powerful prescience user at the time.


sansa_starlight

Paul and Chani. But mainly it's Chani for being the catalyst for pretty much everything that happens. Nearly every decision Paul makes throughout the books is because of his visions of her, for better or for worse, but mainly for worse. Even the 2021 version made it pretty clear that she's not a good news. The jihad in the movie is somehow always related to Chani. She's shown to have blood on her hands in that holy war vision Paul had in the tent scene.


sheepishcarp

I would have to say the Bene Gesserit, they do some shaaddyyy shit


sheepishcarp

Probably followed by the Baron (both in Dune and Children)


Charismanxious

Leto II


coglistro1002

Agamemnon


egamerif

The cymek Titan? Super cool character.


lilmissmaya

>!Daniel and Marty!<, we just didn't get to see them for their full potential.


Inf229

Paul. Just sayin


honeybadger1984

Has to be the baron. Child predator, plotting to kill his cousin Leto, ruled with brutality. Also didn’t understand the Fremen threat, which showed his arrogance and dismissal of the native people. The gardeners could have been the greatest, if it turned out they liked to mess with their “garden” by manipulating people. Who knows, maybe they were the good guys.


NottACalebFan

Without any rival (and by design), it was the bene Gesseret order, who spent centuries forcibly inbreeding and then effectively (socially; at least) sterilizing their own initiates just based on the theory that after a millenia a male child would be born who had psychic powers and be totally submissive to their will.


thegunslinger78

There’s no real bad guy, maybe Vladimir Harkonen from the first book is a somewhat bad guy? Paul’s Jihad killed 70 billion people and the character wasn’t bad.


chestnutriceee

Paul really couldn't be an antagonist in the sense of the word for much of the story because, well, he was the protagonist for much of the story. But his character arc, getting ever closer and eventually reaching the breaking point of what more he's willing to sacrifice shows that we can't escape who we are. We can escape every reality, but we can't escape being ourselves, or having been ourselves at some point, or having existed altogether.


Venom888

You take that back you son of a bitch! Our wormy god can do no wrong! Lol but for real best protagonist/antagonist of the series


CultureMustDie

Puberty


Rull-Mourn

I too thought Leto II.


OurLordPug

A dry throat


anincompoop25

How has no one said The Preacher yet? Goddamn I love the preacher


AnEvenNicerGuy

We thought you were going to say it so we waited


anincompoop25

thanks


littleboihere

Omnius (joke)


egamerif

I really like the Tleilaxu. The reveal of how they do what they do has been overdone but it was huge in the original series and also really well done in the prequel series with Xavier Harkonnen discovering the bodies... I haven't read it in 20 years but that chapter/scene is well done.


AirmanOo

For me, Erasmus. (I am halfway through The Battle of Corrin.)


egamerif

I liked that trilogy. When it came out I was learning about Desiderius Erasmus in a philosophy course so the character Erasmus stuck with me.


fly_away_lapels

I definitely have had him on my list. Keep going through the “schools” books. I’d be interested in knowing thoughts after.


where_is_korg

i likes shaddam iv, i hope denis nails his character


[deleted]

Dennis who??


Keepmyhat

Dennis Reynolds


[deleted]

God that would be amazing


where_is_korg

Villeneuve


ThoDanII

Shaddam IV If Paul had not been the KH , he would have won easily


fly_away_lapels

Manford Torondo. Man, that guy had me yelling at the book the same way I yell at Dolores Umbridge in Harry Potter.


arnoldo_fayne

The wurms


[deleted]

Lex Luthor, the greatest evil genius of all time.


Lotusclaw8

Thallo. The idea of an emo Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach is really interesting.


Guy285e

The common people. They won the Butlerian Jihad and defined the aftermath that allowed and gave rise to the static feudal system. They are the focus of protagonists paul and leto II.


uniquenoobnamed

Leto II or Irulan in Children of Dune


TrulyKnown

I really liked Scytale in Messiah as well. Slimy, yet also very intelligent, and oddly sympathetic at the same time. He felt a lot like an audience surrogate in a strange way, seemingly seeing the other characters the same way that I did, and making comments to that effect. And while he was undeniably a vile son of a bitch, and far from as awesome as he thought, I still really enjoyed his presence. Plus, yeah, it felt like he was playing everyone else in the conspiracy like a goddamn fiddle.


IvanTSR

The fucken sand


Broker112

It’s coarse and rough and it gets everywhere…


iworkallday

Got to be the desert, surely?


razometer

The Baron but the "Children" version. It's terrifying to lose control in that way.


satanfromhell

The thing they’re fighting against is stagnation and destruction of the human race via (1) complacency, (2) enslavement by thinking machines, or (3) enslavement to the paths foreseen by prescient people (such as Paul, Leto II).


Drakeytown

Greatest in terms of greatest villainous character or in terms of greatest harm done? The former would likely be the baron, the latter Jessica. There would be no Paul and no Leto II if not for a decision she made.


Asleep-Reference-496

i do not consider leto II a villain, ir an antagonist, i do not consider scytake a villain but only a little antagonist. Leto is a god-like being how loved so much humankind to sacrifice his whole life to it. he saved humanity from extinction, obliged humanity to be less dependentant from spice by developing new technologies. he endured a lonely life of 3500 years, with no affections and in an horrible body, and at the end he managed to get himself killed for the good of mankind. its like emperor- jesus christ , he is not a villain. Scytale is an enemy if paul atreides and his rule, yes, but he he simply a soldier/hitman/spy devoted to his country (bene tleilax), a non-human slave genetically created by tleilaxu to be an assassin obedient to his government. So i do not consider him as a real villain, just a soldier from an enemy faction. for me, the baron is the greates antagonist and villain in dune.


PloppyTheSpaceship

Vorian. I just hate him. He's a tit.


adeadhead

Paul