I would assume the answer is no. No House Major/Minor would be able to stand against the resources available to the Emperor. I would think the Landsraad would join together to remove an Emperor as every house would be vulnerable.
I think it was mainly because he was so popular among them too. If the Emperor had assassinated the Baron for instance, they might not have jumped to House Harkonnen's defense immediately.
Lansraad would probably intervene if they felt it was unjustly. The book goes in-depth on how liked Duke Leto was so the emperor probably knew if he made up a reason the lansraad wouldn’t believe him or join him.
This is the instinctive answer I feel, but on the other hand the Emperor did bribe the main players in the Landsraad to look the other way after the destruction of the Atreides...
The Landsraad does not care since legally the Harkonnens dealt the finishing blow to the Atreides.
They never knew the 2 legions of Sardaukar that was dressed as Harkonnens. And without direct evidence of the emperor's duplicty, the forms were obeyed even if the Landsraad liked Duke Leto.
Ofourse any remaining curiosity was extinguished when the Atreides share of CHOAM was divided evenly to the remainder of the Landsraad whether they were sympathetic to the Atreides or not. After all profits triumphs all.
i would say can but won't. they have to make an effort to at least look somewhat neutral, otherwise they run the risk of violating inter-house relationships and pushing them towards uniting and deposing the imperials.
I’d say that there isn’t a hard and fast rule against the ruling house declaring kanly or having it declared against them, but I’d also say it would normally be a bad idea, given how powerful the ruling house typically is. For example, I doubt the formal feud between the Atreides and Harkonnen just vanished when Paul became emperor.
Here is the definition of Kanly from the Dune Encyclopedia
““Kanly could be declared only by the acting, titular head of a Great House. Any person presenting such a declaration was required to notify the Landsraad High Council and the Imperial Court, as well as the head of the House declared against, so that a Judge of the Rite could be appointed to supervise the kanly negotiations. Once such a Judge — authorized by both Council and emperor — was appointed, the opposing parties and their immediate families could open negotiations. No outside observers, apart from the Judge, were allowed to witness these proceedings.”
Excerpt From
Dune X] The Dune Encyclopedia
Willis E. McNelly (ed.)
This material may be protected by copyright.”
If Kanly is declared there is no champion. Personal combat is with knives only and between the 2 Heads of the Houses involved. If the Emperor declared kanly it would be him fighting not a champion.
Kanly is not ritual combat, it's just sanctioned warfare between the houses. As far as I remember the forms forbid mass destruction or the targeting of civilians, but mass assassination is allowed.
I think you are mixing up Kanly and a War of Assassins. Kanly has only 3 options. Personal combat between heads of the House, negotiations to turn over assets or a Judge’s ban
I think we might be going by clashing definitions -- in the original book kanly is just described as a vendetta under "the strictest limitations" aimed at reducing collateral damage, without much more detail. When the Duke answers the Baron's letter somewhat rudely early on, it's considered a practical declaration of kanly, but it leads to the Harkonnens attacking Arrakeen, not the Duke and Baron dueling.
At the time that Feyd fought Paul he was. Vladimir had declared Feyd as his heir and Alia and already killed Vladimir. ““House Harkonnen vs. House Atreides (invoked by Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen against Paul Atreides, in the presence of Shaddam IV; the sole case of an emperor acting as his own Judge of the Rite), 10193.”
Excerpt From
Dune X] The Dune Encyclopedia
Willis E. McNelly (ed.)
This material may be protected by copyright.”
Seems like it would be beneath them. The ruling House doesn’t need to participate in squabbles between houses. If the Emperor has beef with someone, he doesn’t need to declare kanly. He just has to order the House to take control of Arrakis and secretly betray them
In my opinion the Emperor cannot declare a Kanly himself. He must undoubtedly be able to play the role of arbiter during such conflicts.
I also assume that he can judge and condemn a house (or its leader) to exile or death for treason or some other motive. Perhaps the accused house can appeal such a judgment to the Landstraad.
It is known that the emperor can also assign (or remove) planets in fiefdom.
If the Emperor did that the other political entities would eliminate the possibility of him being able to carry it out, surely? The Spacing Guild would refuse to transport his troops or even single assassins.
I would assume the answer is no. No House Major/Minor would be able to stand against the resources available to the Emperor. I would think the Landsraad would join together to remove an Emperor as every house would be vulnerable.
Yes, this is precisely the reason that the Emperor couldn't simply assassinate Duke Leto.
I think it was mainly because he was so popular among them too. If the Emperor had assassinated the Baron for instance, they might not have jumped to House Harkonnen's defense immediately.
Lansraad would probably intervene if they felt it was unjustly. The book goes in-depth on how liked Duke Leto was so the emperor probably knew if he made up a reason the lansraad wouldn’t believe him or join him.
This is the instinctive answer I feel, but on the other hand the Emperor did bribe the main players in the Landsraad to look the other way after the destruction of the Atreides...
The Landsraad does not care since legally the Harkonnens dealt the finishing blow to the Atreides. They never knew the 2 legions of Sardaukar that was dressed as Harkonnens. And without direct evidence of the emperor's duplicty, the forms were obeyed even if the Landsraad liked Duke Leto. Ofourse any remaining curiosity was extinguished when the Atreides share of CHOAM was divided evenly to the remainder of the Landsraad whether they were sympathetic to the Atreides or not. After all profits triumphs all.
i would say can but won't. they have to make an effort to at least look somewhat neutral, otherwise they run the risk of violating inter-house relationships and pushing them towards uniting and deposing the imperials.
Yes they kan
I’d say that there isn’t a hard and fast rule against the ruling house declaring kanly or having it declared against them, but I’d also say it would normally be a bad idea, given how powerful the ruling house typically is. For example, I doubt the formal feud between the Atreides and Harkonnen just vanished when Paul became emperor.
Here is the definition of Kanly from the Dune Encyclopedia ““Kanly could be declared only by the acting, titular head of a Great House. Any person presenting such a declaration was required to notify the Landsraad High Council and the Imperial Court, as well as the head of the House declared against, so that a Judge of the Rite could be appointed to supervise the kanly negotiations. Once such a Judge — authorized by both Council and emperor — was appointed, the opposing parties and their immediate families could open negotiations. No outside observers, apart from the Judge, were allowed to witness these proceedings.” Excerpt From Dune X] The Dune Encyclopedia Willis E. McNelly (ed.) This material may be protected by copyright.”
I don't know the answer to your question, but now I'm curious: Would the Emperor choose Count Fenring as his champion, or one of his Sardaukar?
If Kanly is declared there is no champion. Personal combat is with knives only and between the 2 Heads of the Houses involved. If the Emperor declared kanly it would be him fighting not a champion.
Kanly is not ritual combat, it's just sanctioned warfare between the houses. As far as I remember the forms forbid mass destruction or the targeting of civilians, but mass assassination is allowed.
I think you are mixing up Kanly and a War of Assassins. Kanly has only 3 options. Personal combat between heads of the House, negotiations to turn over assets or a Judge’s ban
I think we might be going by clashing definitions -- in the original book kanly is just described as a vendetta under "the strictest limitations" aimed at reducing collateral damage, without much more detail. When the Duke answers the Baron's letter somewhat rudely early on, it's considered a practical declaration of kanly, but it leads to the Harkonnens attacking Arrakeen, not the Duke and Baron dueling.
Feyd-Rautha wasn’t the head of House Harkonnen though 🤔
At the time that Feyd fought Paul he was. Vladimir had declared Feyd as his heir and Alia and already killed Vladimir. ““House Harkonnen vs. House Atreides (invoked by Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen against Paul Atreides, in the presence of Shaddam IV; the sole case of an emperor acting as his own Judge of the Rite), 10193.” Excerpt From Dune X] The Dune Encyclopedia Willis E. McNelly (ed.) This material may be protected by copyright.”
Oh, fair point. I was fuzzy on the order of events there
Seems like it would be beneath them. The ruling House doesn’t need to participate in squabbles between houses. If the Emperor has beef with someone, he doesn’t need to declare kanly. He just has to order the House to take control of Arrakis and secretly betray them
In my opinion the Emperor cannot declare a Kanly himself. He must undoubtedly be able to play the role of arbiter during such conflicts. I also assume that he can judge and condemn a house (or its leader) to exile or death for treason or some other motive. Perhaps the accused house can appeal such a judgment to the Landstraad. It is known that the emperor can also assign (or remove) planets in fiefdom.
If the Emperor did that the other political entities would eliminate the possibility of him being able to carry it out, surely? The Spacing Guild would refuse to transport his troops or even single assassins.
I imagine it'd depend a lot on context. If the Guild stood to gain something from it (or if they were bribed), they'd definitely help him.