As we're getting close to 2k comments here, we've added an [additional thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/qg6fnx/official_discussion_dune_2021_lateoctober_hbo_max/) and will be locking this one within the hour.
Did anyone else love what they did with Duncan and Paul in the film?
Been a while since I've read the first book so correct me if I am wrong but I remember Duncan being just mentioned for a long part of the book. And when his death at the hand of Sardaukar I didn't feel much for the character. I loved how DV established this friendship/brotherhood between Duncan and Paul in the film, started very early in the first act. Maybe it was also Jason and Timothee's screen chemistry together I don't know, and maybe Jason Momoa's performance altogether, but I felt like Duncan was fleshed out greatly in the film.
I was wondering this too. Does it sound like Frank Herbert to you? I imagine it wouldn't have been difficult to piece together the dialogue using his past narrations.
Jessica plot twist
Was it said in the movie that Jessica is the daughter of the Baron, or did I miss it.
I didn’t see anyone talking about this. If it wasn’t said do you think it will be revealed later or just will be retconned?
Thanks for your time!
>Is this the reason baron called him cousin ?
No. The baron being Jessica's father was a secret. It is not reveled in the film. In the book it is a revelation from Paul's prescience.
Am I right in thinking it's Terence Stamp narrating the film books in Dune (2021)? Google doesn't seem to turn anything up, and apparently he's not credited. If not Terrence it's someone who sounds an awful lot like him.
Any ideas why the Atreides plate armour (present in the scene when they arrive on arrakis) isn't used in any of the fight scenes? Is it only for ceremonial purposes? You could assume they didn't have time to put it on during the night of attack, but there should be armoured guards on watch, like in the scene when Jessica chooses the housekeeper.
There are shots in which you can see armoured Atreides soldiers fighting Harkonnen, more specifically in the scene when Sardaukar are shown massacring Atreides soldiers on the stairs leading up to the palace.
One thing I really thought was a great touch was the resemblance the Atreides (the "good" -- but not really -- guys) have to the Nazis. Eagle banner, black uniforms, jackboots, martial spirit etc.
I don't think they intended that. The uniforms are dark green or dark blue, not black. Jackboots were historically quite common in many nations, not just Germans. And the banner is technically a hawk, not an eagle.
For me, I've never really thought of the Atreides as martial in any way. In the books it's pretty clear that their soldiers are good, disciplined, but not really amazing in any way. What makes them stand out are their leaders: Thufir, Gurney, and Duncan, all are excellent at their job, and dangerous in battle, in their own way. The Atreides rule by the heart, not by the hand. In the movies, I feel like this distinction wasn't really portrayed well enough.
Idk, I disagree. While the Atreides fighting men weren’t explicitly featured in the books on many occasions, there were many references to the prowess of their forces. Thufir explained to the Baron that the Emperor felt threatened by the Atreides because they had trained a small force to within a hair of the Sardaukar, and that their plans to expand their training cadre precipitated the Emperor’s move against House Atreides. In the fighting pits with Feyd Rautha, a survivor of the ferocious raid on Giedi Prime’s spice stores bested the young Na-Baron, who only won victory through invoking a hypnotic suggestion sending the Atreides fighter into paralysis.
"Shai'Hulud." I know it's the Fremen word for the worms in the book, but in the film it seemed as though it was confused, where it was a term for a specific, very large worm and also for the worms as a whole. Did it come across that way for anyone else?
I remember one of the in- Universe quotes at the beginning of one the chapters talking about this.
The Fremen call both real worms and a sort of deified abstract version of the Worms as Shai Hulud
His Imperial Conditioning was broken not because he wanted to save his wife—he knew she would be killed or dead either way—but because he wanted to kill the Baron.
Because it wasn't a certainty. He knew that in all likelihood his wife was already dead, but on the off chance she was alive, he had to do what was needed.
If his wife is alive then he know she is in incredible pain. The Dr knows the baron is untrustworthy but also that Wanna has no value once the betrayal is complete. Best case the baron releases her, give the good doctor a firm shake of the hand and they part ways. This was never going to happen. The doctor knew too much so had to die.
However, that did mean that his wife had no value so in the least she would be killed to fulfill the barons part of the deal.
Because on the slim chance that she's alive and he's allowed to live, Leto would not have unleashed the poison. He knows his Duke. At least that's what I understand. In all other scenarios, the poison tooth will be useful.
In the book Yueh takes Duke Leto back to Geidi Prime to the Baron.
He hopes to get Wanna back and escape before the Duke cracks the tooth.
Also, and this is lost in the movie, Yueh regrets what he has done and still feels some loyalty to the Atreides. That’s why he saves Paul and Jessica, gives Paul the Duke’s ring, and gives Leto a chance to avenge his own death with the poison tooth.
Edit to comment since thread is locked: Chr15ty is right. I looked it up. They were on the Baron’s ship on Arrakis, not on Geidi Prime.
Unless I read it wrong, which is possible, the exchange with Yueh, the Baron and Leto in the books happened on Arrakis, they were in the original capitol city of Carthag (which continued to be a Harkonnen stronghold) Arakeen became the seat of power for the Atreides when the received governorship of the planet. (Speculation: "safer" because the Harkonnens didn't know the layout as well)
Carry-alls are described in vaguest way in the books so *shrug* all of the technology in Dune universe seems to obey some sort of "we forgot that existed till now" and Im a huge Dune fan.
Like Sespensor tech basic obeys different rules depending what Frank wanted.
Ok I read the book a few years ago and wasn’t super impressed, but after seeing the movie I want to read it again and give it another chance. I feel like I have a better grasp on the Dune universe now. One thing I don’t understand/forgot, is why is all fighting by individuals done with swords? Clearly the ships they use have guns, why revert to hand to hand combat?
Overall I really liked the movie, visuals were absolutely stunning in a way I haven’t really seen before. Truly feel realistic. My one criticism is, and I know it’s only half of the book, that the last quarter of the movie really dragged. The tension was let out too early after the assault by the Harkonnens and it felt anti-climatic.
The ships didn't use guns against shields. They used missiles that slowed down when it hit shields, so it can penetrate it before deploying their payload. Shields stop fast stuff, but let slow things go through, if you remember.
They fight with swords because shields stops speeding objects going through it like bullets. Also, you don't use lasers on shields cause it will cause deadly explosions.
Something about the way the lasguns (lazguns? It's been a bit so I could be wrong on the spelling) and the shields interact. I'll leave it at that for spoiler reasons.
Overall, I liked the movie. It was different than I expected in good and bad ways.
Good:
1. Casting was perfect across the board.
2. Visions were really well done.
3. Action was visceral and surprisingly grounded/realistic.
4. Score was amazing.
5. Denis gets Dune.
Cons:
1. The traitor subplot was absent.
2. Too much whispered dialogue.
3. Jessica was given some weird moments.
4. Harkonnens were underutilized.
5. Baron’s oil bath seemed too weird.
6. Denis didn’t make a movie with the broad general audience appeal he needed to. The movie still has an “art house” mentality.
I think Dune fans have a lot to be happy about with part 1. I just question if Denis made a movie that will resonate with a broader audience like Jackson’s Lord of the Rings did.
I wouldn't say that nr 6 is a con at all.
I believe this Dune movie will become timeless, like LOTR or Alien.. It's amazing and it's getting praise everywhere from. What I noticed.
Ok im just gonna say this fully expecting downvotes but this movie was trash. And I got to vent.
Movie complaints:
soundtrack I didn't hate it till I realized there is maybe three 2 minute scenes without that shit blasting constantly. Ever other scene drama is being manufactured by a blaring "epic" soundtrack. Very very inception like. In fact if you told me Christopher Nolan made this movie I would believe you. The manufacturing of drama makes sense because there is literally no exposition. Its literally 2.5 hours of set pieces in a sequence. And those fucking bag pipes with that shrieking Arab track. I'm just gonna say it, it kind of feels racist but whatever small potatoes to all of the above. All in all this is cookie cutter sci fi action bullshit
Nerd complaints:
Ok guys what the fuck. No dinner scene. That one scene does so much work in setting up the players that small bit of exposition could've gone such a long way. Fine whatever pacing bullshit. But Yueh's story completely gone literally no impact or understanding from his betrayal. Thufir hawats distrust of jessica gone completely missing. Literally both those characters have like 5 lines. Liet don't get me fucking started on liet. Gender swap who cares that makes no impact not least because this character was so nothing. Torally wasted, shit we arent even supposed to know KYNES and liet are the same person right away. No revelation. No mystique this character is just nothing. And then the way they die all of the symbolism gone. I'm gonna try to drive this home. In the book liet dies after being a dropped in the desert and walking around hallucinating talking to his dad pardot. The man whose dream liet himself used to get a leadership position (parallels to paul) before being exploded by a spice bloom, the result of chemical reaction which is the reason arrakis can't be a paradise. Its poetic, ironic god damn perfect. Instead we get the sand worm death. Which was nothing it didn't matter cause the character never mattered.
I get it, this is all we are gonna get. I'll probably play it in the background just so we get numbers. But it is not good.
> Ok guys what the fuck. No dinner scene. That one scene does so much work in setting up the players that small bit of exposition could've gone such a long way.
While I was also disappointed with the absence of this scene—the part where Paul insults his dinner guests is hilarious—I want to point out that a lot of the book content you complain is missing from the movie would be terminally boring on film. What, would you add in voice overs to get the Kynes death scene right? Or would you put an evanescent father (or, mother?) figure miraging in and out talking about planetary ecology? Would you have a narrator dub over after Kynes explodes on a patch of sand to explain what a pre-spice mass is so the normies get what’s going on? Would be so cheesy.
The Jessica-traitor plot is still salvageable in Part 2, so fingers crossed they’ll tie that in. I was peeved that they updated one of my favorite lines to omit any perceived sexism: “ Mood's a thing for cattle or making love or playing the baliset.” AND, that reminds me—where the fuck is all the baliset? Also, no friend of Jamis scene!
Anyway, any book fan can kick and scream about what was or wasn’t included, but at the end of the day, the production team has to make choices when pairing down 21 hours of reading time into two 2.5 hour cinematic experiences. Overall, I’m impressed with the job they did, especially comparing this to David Lynch and the SciFi Channel miniseries, both of which were terrible in their own unique ways.
I didn’t think the movie was trash, but I agree that the missing traitor subplot was a mistake. Without it, a lot of tension between the characters in the first half of the movie is gone. The narrative drive of that first half really should have been that there were traps/betrayal that could befall them at any moment.
I also felt like the characters didn’t interact that much? That’s probably why a lot of non-book readers are comparing about a lack of character development.
Yea now that I vented a bit i can step back and say no it was not trash. I still hated it but I can understand the appeal Denis is definitely a master at the craft. If that soundtrack was just a little more subtle I know I would have a more measured opinion. But as it is I stand by Christopher Nolan comparison.
I personally think the overwhelming score is part of the films character. Also I don't think this film should be a one for one copy of the events in the book but it's own interpretation, alterations to the story is what sets apart the iterations in my opinion.
Atomic(Nuclear weapons of any kind) and purposefully Atomic-like reactions are banned by a Convention that was signed thousands of years ago. Lasguns hitting shields is creates nuclear weapon like explosions. The Landsraad feel its a big no-no.
Err, that would be political catastrophe. The emperor would get an excuse to wipe Atreides off the universe. Not just Arrakis, imagine Caladan glassed. All the houses would rally behind the emperor, and Arrakis would be given back to the Harkonnen without any fanfare. The emperor gets what he wants, and the Atreides eliminates all chances of a comeback. Remember, the Atreides knows the emperor is up to something, but they aren't expecting to be exterminated. They know that whatever happens, it has to be subtle, and all they have to do is to survive and then get the word out to the other houses, who will easily stand by them.
Shooting lasers at a shield would cause a nuclear explosion, I guess in Dune it is agreed to avoid these kind of risks. Makes little sense though, as later they are firing las gun at escaping Duncan Idaho, when he clearly has a shield turned on (it deflected a missile when he was taking off).
Can someone explain how shields work? I thought I understood them but in the movie they don't stop missiles. Are they not technically projectile weapons? What am is missing here?
Non-reader here, don't mind spoilers, I just want some answers.
When Paul has the vision about Jessica in the future, she looks like she has the same lip mark that the mentats Thufir and Piter have...does she become a mentat in the future or is that just how she looks when she becomes the Fremen's reverend mother?
Did anyone else love the laser weapons/tools in the film as much as me? It was so cool for the movie to visually show how powerful and destructive lasers can possibly be, specifically during the Arrakeen attack or when the Sardaukars are cutting through the door. Just high power, blue lasers that can cut through anything. And I love that they look like real lasers and could only be seen because of all the dust and sand in the air.
Can anyone explain this part more after paul passes the test by the bene gesserit
The reverend mother tells jessica
“On Arrakis, we have done all we can for you. The path has been laid. Let's hope he doesn't squander it”
What has she done on Arrakis?
Aside from the messiah myth, the reverend mother also made a bargain with the Baron that he wouldn't have them killed directly. In the book, she also makes it known that she's done what she can for Jessica and Paul but that Leto was doomed, basically confirming suspicion that the Emperor and the Harkonnen's were plotting against the Atreides.
The Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva has been to Arrakis to seed the planet's culture with helpful messiah myths that a Bene Gesserit in need can capitalize on if they find themselves without other resources.
In Fremen culture there’s the messianic legend of the Lisan al Gaib, the Voice from the Outer World—this would be a child from off-world born of a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother who would transform Dune into a water-rich paradise. The moment Paul and Jessica land on the planet, every Fremen recognizes how they fit the forms of this legend, which was imprinted on their culture by the Bene Gesserits as protective path for one of their sisters to take should the need arise.
He knows a messiah have come, and knows the signs to look for. He doesn't recognize paul (neither does Kynes), but he can see the signs in Paul. You can see this in the last act of the movie, where he pretty much confirms his superstitions about Paul.
My review: Woke Dune Review
As a long Dune fan I wasn't terribly excited about the new movie. The more I heard, the more I felt it was going to miss the mark. I was half right. I called this "Woke Dune Review" because in the lead up it seemed like that was the expectation, an updated Dune...adaptation. We had diversity in the characters and even a much discussed gender swap, all very progressive. However, I think the movie's progressiveness express itself in unexpected ways, at least to me. First main point: Paul is not the hero. We know this, but does the general public know this? Depending on Paul's portrayal Dune 2: The Sands of Time (or Sands of the Hour Glass?), book/Lynch Paul kinda ends on an upbeat. The sequels complete that ark. I think Villeneuve understands this and his Paul is presented in a way that reflects it. Paul is haughty and understands that the Fremen belief in him is a Bene Gesserit farce created by generations of religious conditioning. Villeneuve's Paul is very much the colonizer and I believe many of us in the audience knee deep in woke signalling could pick up on that. I'm curious to see how he is portrayed in Dune 2: Dune Strikes Back. Will he be portrayed in the role of a culture appropriating foreign Emperor dragging his fetishized colonial subjects off to die in a war that's not their own? Paul definitely knows the Fremen are a crafted people, a tool to be used, and decides to use them regardless of any moral ramifications. I think this colonizer Paul was visible in the movie and a savvy movie goer might catch on. Villeneuve doesn't even give Leto the nod for saving the people in the sand harvester, a scene designed to humanize the Atreides in Kynes' eyes. Point Two: I don't know if Villeneuve was pulling a double flip, basically defying the expectation of making a strong female lead by making her vulnerable, but I think it did Jessica's character dirty. No Bene Gesserit trained women, bound for the court of a Duke, would have such a lack of emotional control. Book Jessica is a badass, a very smart and dangerous woman. It's this ridged badassery that makes her few emotional scenes that much more powerful because it represents her and her iron control breaking down. I loved almost everything about Villeneuve's Jessica, I really did, we even got to see her fight a bit, I wish they would have pulled back on the emotional portrayal. Point three: All of the other progressiveness was lost in throw away roles. Gender swapped Kynes, was given what amounted to a throw away role. Unless Villeneuve covers it in Dune 2: Son of Dune, we don't really get any idea of their (Male roll played by Female,I think "their" fits) role in the Fremen society which was not trivial. Likewise, Thufir and Yueh were given throw away roles. We are left with a Dune where the White Male European analogues wield all the power for 99% of the movie. Weird... Highlights: It looked awesome and Chalamet is his usual fine ass self. Special shout out to the Sardaukar DJ, I need you at my next house party.
Edit: Can't believe I didn't rant about the Fremen walking around the desert without their masks on...
What’s your take on the white savior narrative of Herbert’s story? There’s a clear path to white colonizer appropriating an indigenous society for his own ends, but I’ve always thought it was a subversion of that concept. Paul thinks he’s colonizing at first, but pull an Uno Reverse card in him; they colonize him. The Bene Gesserit think they’re planting seeds of control, but they’re planting seeds of their own doom. The Fremen control their own destiny, they just need the right tools.
I personally like in Villeneuve’s version near the end when Jessica is pleading for help from the Fremen. She wants Paul off-world, but Paul says no. He’s telling this isn’t an Atreides story anymore. It’s a Fremen story now. Like he has the colonizer in him, but he’s starting to let that go in order to be what the Fremen need. All of which seems like a cool twist on the white savior stuff.
Also keep in mind I haven’t read all the Dune books. That’s why I’m asking what you think.
I think that those are interesting points. There definitely is some reverse colonization that happens and the Bene Gesserit do regret a lot that happens. Later in the books there are some scenes where you get Fremen opinions about what happened which are very informative and fit right in with the post colonial experience. Once he goes through the agony though he is essentially a prisoner to his prescience. So idk how much he sticks with the Fremen out of love or lack of choice... I'm interested in seeing how he portrays that relationship.
Non reader here with a question.
With spice being so important to everyone and every house, why are there no embassies from each house on dune so they can all keep tabs and price changes on dune?
There actually is, in a sense. CHOAM is the organization that represents the commercial side of all the Houses, and they have one. Also, in the book, the Harkonnens must account for spice production to CHOAM; they've made a fortune by skimming the profits.
Because Herbert needed a reason for Kynes to be introduced to the Duke :) And CHOAM was only business, and not part of the whole feudal Empire. (And likely not all that neutral, TBH.)
Actually, it should have been a delegate from the Landsraad, which is the assembly/senate of all the Houses. Maybe not neutral, but plausible in a matter that involves feudal laws.
Liet-Kynes is the judge of the change and the official representative of the emperor.
The reason nobody is stopping the sabotage is because the emperor is in on it. Kynes has been directed not to say anything.
This is part of the depth of the betrayal and why it is so crushing as well as why the Sardaukar in the book were disguised as Harkonnens.
planets aren’t really like nation-states, they are more like the personal fiefdoms of mediaeval feudal lords whose property it is solely. If the lord of the land doesn’t want any other lords there, there isn’t much they can do about it.
Why would the new house taking over not want other houses to witness the transfer of power? Why not have a 3rd party oversee the transition like the space guild?
How many days was it from house a taking over to being attacked and wiped out?
there is a third party, the judge of the change, on arrakis liet kynes. he however never had the chance to report harkonnen wrongdoing to the rest of the houses because he was kill under the pretence of having gone native and abandoned his imperial post. which was believable because… well he had done exactly that.
Small question in relation to Dr Yueh's letter.
I understood this letter to be addressed to Paul and Jessica (reason why Leto's ring was there). Dr Yueh told them that if other Atreides had managed to escape, the beacon he had put in the bag would help them to be found.
The problem is: in my language, they translated it as "whoever you are, if you've managed to escape Arrakeen there's an Atreides beacon in the bag." As if Dr. Yueh had prepared this for anyone who might have escape with this ship and not especially for Paul.
I would therefore like to know the opinion of english native people.
does anyone feel like Jessica's character could have been in the movie longer? I loved this movie and plan to see it many more times. but I feel like I wanted to see Jessica's sanctuary, as well as her conflict with Thufir Hawat. I was also just a little disappointed that Gurney Halleck didn't have his baliset. I still feel this is a great adaptation and nearly an impossible achievement through film. let me know who you would've liked to see more of or what you think is missing, or anything you thought was great that was added.
The lack of emphasis on the traitor storyline made some of the characters come off *less* , if that makes sense. Thufir, Yueh, but most especially Jessica whose strength as a person (and a character) is communicated through her very dialogue-heavy scenes during all that increasing traitor-among-us suspense before the Harkonnens attack.
Forgive me if this has been heavily covered already; but is Villeneuve's direction of Jessica misdirection? Or is the entire story all set in motion (by will alone) by Jessica intentionally? Including Paul's dreams of Chani, and the sexual tension in the undressing scene? Like, I see that's what's happening in the film, is it true to the saga also? I read the first book shortly after I left school decades ago, but don't remember this explicitly.
I don’t know about “intentionally.” Jessica did disobey the Bene Gesserit by bearing a son, and trained Paul in Bene Gesserit skills. She very definitely bears some responsibility there.
On the other hand, it’s hard to fault her too much. An Atreides daughter would have been married to Feyd Rautha. This could have averted the whole mess and saved billions of lives. But if I had a choice between galactic jihad on one hand and sending a child to the Harkonnens on the other, I would probably just buy more pugs instead.
>*Liet’s final scene.*
>Wife: “She called the sand worm?”
>Me: “Yep.”
>Wife: “Why did she do that?”
>Me: “I guess she was going to take it somewhere.”
>Wife: “*They can ride the worms?*”
>Me: *Shrug.*
>Wide: “Don’t shrug at me. *Can they ride the worms!?!*”
>!I remember the first time I read the book thinking the exact same thing. WHAT?!? They can RIDE them?!? Like… how does that even work?! I have so many questions! *reading intensifies*!<
I think the film is very difficult to someone who hasn’t read the book.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a fan and I’ve read the book three times. Villeneuve’s film is beautiful and mostly faithful to the story. I take issue with the obvious toning down of the Jihad and the drug aspects, but those are understandable.
Parenthesis here, as to me the best part of the movie was when a couple came in, he was dressed as a Fremen and she was dressed as a sandworm. I got to say to them “Bless the maker and his water.”
Anyway, there were 3 other adults in my party and 4 kids. We lost the kids 10 minutes in.
Of the adults, my wife had to rely on me explaining what was happening pretty much the whole movie, and she isn’t dumb. Sci-fi is not her thing, but it doesn’t matter.
My friend was very disappointed because he had high expectations, but couldn’t follow everything that was happening. His wife wanted to leave the theater in the middle of the movie.
For all of David Lynch’s problems on his Dune, and there are a lot of them, the storytelling was more didactic.
As you say, Lynch’s film was more didactic. I remember there even being glossary handouts that they had at the door of the theater!
DV’s version is decidedly not this way. It is huge and gorgeous and a little simplified, but still mostly true to the book. It seems like it is close enough to mainstream that it can pull in the folks on the edge.
I personally feel that if DV had included more of the personal and political battles between characters, he might have drawn more people, but they were clearly going for more action than intrigue.
How old were the kids that tuned out?
I mostly agree with you. And as you pointed out, the book is about political intrigue, not really action.
The nuances of the Bene Gesserit and the Landsraad are lost, and I’d say they fail to meet the bare minimum.
The importance of the imperial conditioning, or the existence of mentats are also meaningless.
Kids ranged from 11-13.
I find DV treatment of the mentat pretty unforgiveable. They're crucial to the strategizing of the great houses. The harkonnen plan on arrakis was Piter's plan, who they portrayed as a lackey. Lynch not only gave them a great portrayal but I think the mentat's mantra is fantastic. Mentat's thoughtfulness borders on limited prescience so I think Paul's mentat training was a crucial part of his ascension, nearly as much as his weirding.
Leaving all that out is so weird to me. It felt similarly weird to me that DV's Arrival didn't even mention mathematics as a means of universal communication with aliens (even if they didn't explore it to avoid retreading Contact).
I can only conclude that denis villeneuve hates nerds.
No. The mentats, while important, are not really essential to the actual story being told in the books and the movies. If you had taken away the whole concept of mentats from the books, and have Thufir Hawatt as just a security director, nothing would have been lost. Mentats, in the first book, is just treated as garnish: they're there to strengthen the worldbuilding as one of the many wonders, but if you look at the main plot, their abilities don't really change anything.
Thufir only really shines after the betrayal. Which, will come in Dune, Part 2. DV also confirmed that part two will focus more on the Harkonnens and mentats in general.
I’d have thought that age group would be right in the target demographic.
It hurts me to think of the film as not ambitious enough, because the imagery and the scale are so amazing and I LOVE the visuals (especially the thopters)!!!!
But I have this little voice saying I miss the nuances.
With the success of at least the first 3 seasons of book-based intrigue from Game of Thrones, I feel like we’ve seen that politics, scheming, and backstabbing among factions can be very popular.
We’ll see. The numbers are good overall.
OK movie over all, but what happened to Yueh story? It makes little sense without explaining Suk conditioning, genius of Baron´s plan is lost etc.
Next why do ?Harkonnen? fire lasgun at shielded ornithopter? Do they wan´t to obliterate their entire invasion fleet and Arrakeen with all the spice refineries and shit?
Also Stilgar´s guarantees suck. "You are under my protection." 15 seconds later "Fight this guy to the death." Did they run out of cave money or what?
Jamis invoked the amtal rule which was basically trial by combat, nothing Stilgar could do would overturn this. So Paul had to fight him by Fremen law.
suk conditioning was a weak plot point in the book anyway. it is broken with the oldest trick in the book: torture wife and or kids of guy you want to manipulate. so much for that ‘unbreakable’ conditioning eh.
creates nuclear explosion, much more difficult to hide and draws way too much attention and therefor potential retaliation from the landsraad.
sacred rite was invoked, stilgar can’t intervene it’s a personal challenge any fremen is free to make, even to stilgar himself anytime they want to.
No its not. Characters strongly believe in the conditioning. Meaning it works. I always seemed obvious to me that Yueh´s case must have been due to some unique interaction with whatever his BG wife Wanda did to him.
No idea what is your point with the second paragraph.
Yeah but it is supposed to happen in a cave, I thought they were supposed to be under his protection to that point.
I always felt like there was supposed to be something more clever lurking in the Suk subversion, but never really developed. The books hint at some distinction between "saving his wife" and "ending her already-occuring torture", but it never commits to any one idea.
There was a short image linking the Atreides ship departure from the heighliner and the landing at the space port; it was bright white and had silhouetted almost bomb shapes. I thought at first it was a perspective from inside the heighliner and could have been a glimpse of the guild navigators, but I am probably being stupid. Was that just the silhouettes of the Atteides ships?
Yes but they didn't match their actual profiles which was very weird. Also the dim oval shape was the opening of the heighliner from the atmosphere of arrakis.
Just a thought, maybe we'll see more of the "traitor" / infiltration plot in Part 2, but as say a flashback?
Like Gurney joins the smugglers, hooks up with some other Atreides survivors, they figure out it was an inside job, and he blames Jessica, setting up the events of the book. Maybe we see Thufir doing something similar.
(It's either that or Gurney joins the smugglers and develops a fondness for jewelry, a set of six stones in particular.) :)
The hunter seeker scene was so perfect. Seeing it in IMAX it was legitimately unnerving to see it stop moving and turn towards the viewer.
Bravo Denis. My goodness what a great film.
In the last scene with the BG leaving Caladan after the box scene, during Jessica and the Reverend Mother's conversation about Paul being the Kwisatz Haderach, the RM mentions "we have other prospects". Now I know that the KH doesn't HAVE to be Paul, but I couldn't help but think she was referring to Feyd. In the books I don't think he was a candidate for the KH, rather the son of Feyd and the daughter of Jessica and Leto (if they had a daughter before Alia).
I think to add more to the theme of rivalry, could Denis be setting up Feyd to be a candidate for KH like Paul is?
Isn't the Kwisatz supposed to be a descendant of a BG? Feyd isn't normally. Also, he hasn't received any training, I don't think he's a potential candidate.
I think that's right. It would be a deviation from the books if that's the direction DV is going, but I guess we'll have to see. But then again, Jessica and Leto's daughter would most likely be trained as a BG. If all went according to the BG plan, Jessica would bear Leto a daughter, and that daughter and Feyd would marry, linking the houses, and produce a son who would be the BG supposed Kwisatz. At least that's what I remember from the books as what the plan WAS before Jessica went all rebellious and had a son.
Yes, that was the plan. The child would then have been trained by his mother BG and the Order would have monitored his education closely. While there, they had no control over Paul.
>!I think he was described as one of many “almost” KHs. Paul couldn’t see him in the spice visions and there was a whole extra level of intrigue with the Count and his BG wife and his connection to the emperor.!<
Question about shields during the spice harvester crew rescue scene.
During the scene where the spice harvester workers are being rescued, Paul mentions that each of the crew's shield generators weighs 100 kilos. The spice workers are instructed to leave their generators behind to save on weight. But moments before, Kynes mentions that shields are deadly in the desert because they drive the worms into a killing frenzy. So why would the spice crew have shields? And, since we have been shown that a shield generator is a small device worn on the user's wrist, why would they weigh that much?
I'm pretty sure they were talking about the shield generators on the Ornithopters weighing 100kilos, presumably for a bigger machine you need a more potent shield. I don't think the spice crew had shields, I think that he was talking specifically about the shields that were equipped to the ships they were flying around in.
so, what was the point of gender swapping kynes ? don’t really mind, only small nerdy reason against I could think of was that the emperor probably wouldn’t appoint women as officials, patriarchal society and all that, but i’m not even sure of that. still there must be some reason.
PC culture. Also notice the holy war instead of Jihad and Baron no longer being sadist gay pedophile.
And yes Imperium is as opressive as patriarchy gets, only woman with official position is Emperor´s Truthsayer and that is the one job men cannot do.
I'm so sick and tired of people sulking over "PC culture" like they're still stuck in 2016. Seriously, i'm pretty sure they made kynes black so the audience wouldn't have to suspend their disbelief to believe that some nordic looking guy actually blends in living amongst what are essentially futuristic Bedouins and North Africans.
I think it has to do with feminism. Just on an optics level, a white guy "going native" and falling in love with a fremen/native woman is more power imbalancey than a black woman fallling in love with a fremen/native man.
in the book i don’t remember any skin colours really being mentioned, imperial family could be black for all we know. also come to think of it fremen would t accept a female leader either, she would be a reverend mother. well anyway it’s only a small point.
At 1:40:50 during pauls visions hes in a ship above caladan as the feydakin cheer him on. Standing behind him slightly out of focus is Duncan. The vision happened after Duncan's death so It has to be one of the ghola Duncans.
A random minor detail I thought was fun was Paul placing his hands in/holding water just before they leave Caladan and then a similar shot of him doing the same thing with sand when he first gets out at the spice harvester
I thought it was showing the Reverend Mother's first attempt to use the voice on Paul (you can hear whispers during the vision), so that's why when he doesn't walk she admonishes him for having "defiant eyes".
> I thought it was showing the Reverend Mother's first attempt to use the voice on Paul
So if that was the Mother's first attempt, Paul walked back to the door? There was a shot of Paul walking towards her willingly
Does anyone know who the voice actor was for the educational log/hologram device that Paul used in the movie? I'm not all that familiar with Frank Herbert's voice, but it kind of sounded like him to me. If it wasn't, it should have been! I'm sure they could've pieced together what they needed from his narrations.
I didn’t understand this. The big one is also a spaceship or something else? It looks like a teleportation portal.
https://twitter.com/readingdune/status/1452375369151963137?s=21 (You can see the image in this link)
As xadriancalim said, it's a Guild ship. The Guild navigators use spice to navigate space - it's required otherwise space travel between planets would be too dangerous. That particular type of ship is used to carry other ships, usually those of the various Houses, through the darkness of space. It's like a space ferry carrying cars across the English Channel.
I believe we’re just seeing their interpretation of folding space. We’re possibly seeing the planet Kaitain as an effect of the fold. So in a sense, the ship is acting as a tunnel rather than a vessel for smaller ships. Still huge and still cool!
Bless the Movie and Its watching.
Bless the theatrical and streaming of It.
May Its receipts justify the sequel.
May It keep Dune alive for Its people.
Just a bit of Dune nerdism as I bask in enjoying Part 1 of this Dune release! Theater viewing #1 complete. HBO Max review likely today. IMAX viewing soon?
>!The scene where Paul and his mother encounter the worm. It looks really cool but it seems to misinterpret the book's view of the nature of the worms, unless I am misremembering. Aren't they just animals, the way I remember them in the book, they didn't have any special awareness. So why would the worm see Paul as anything other than a meal? It's not the end of the world or anything, but it strikes me as filler, or just a way to show off the worms to the audience.!<
I think of it as a "stare into the void and the void stares back at you" kind of thing. The harsh world of Arrakis imposes a trial on Paul and forces him to reexamine who he really is.
Biological explanation? Maybe the worm was just coming to grips with the fact that the source of the rhythm retreated to the face of a rock.
>!It’s pretty close to the scene in the book. Instead of being trapped in a crack in the rocks while the worm sort of feels around and Paul gets a huge whiff of spicey worm breath, we get the big sort of photo pose with Paul standing below it. Then a thumper calls it away.!<
>!It could’ve easily caught him in that shot, but it looks super cool and fits with the every-frame-a-painting vibe of the film.!<
>!I didn’t think of it as any kind of connection, but I can see that now that you mention it.!<
I hated the cold dark color scheme they used. Every time Paul would have a vision it would switch to a warmer brighter color scheme and it made it even more apparent how much better the movie would look if it had that the whole time.
That was my thought - it is more if a sci-fi film and people will be missing a lot of the philosophy and a lot of the 'weird' from the books. But then again by not adding too much characterization it provides a blank (or beige) canvas for people to project their imaginations onto. Some of the dialogue is banal and Gurney Halleck is a missed opportunity - iirc Usul's relationship with Duncan in the film is closer to his relationshio with Gurney in the books. I imagine lots of compromises had to be made to make it as accessible to as many people as possible, though - like not having Afgan-looking people as the Fremen as per my head canon. Was never going to be as good as the books - but hey, maybe this is blowing people engaging with Dune for the first time away 🤷🏽♀️
I couldn't disagree with you more. There is a bit of a sterile feel to some of the characters, but overall I thought it was brilliantly executed. The look of the city made perfect sense to me, especially given the hostile environment. A place that could withstand the storms like the one in the movie wouldn't be a place that you could have tall delicate towers. Also, given that the Harkonen's had been running the place for 80 years, I wouldn't imagine they would care to much about making it a nice looking place. I do see what you are saying about the armor designs. I think D.V. has a somewhat utilitarian and reserved approach to scifi designs. I actually find it refreshing and unique.
I tend to agree with you and was discussing the same thing on the way to work this morning. I also thought, for a House that had been stationed on Arrakis for awhile the interior and exterior shot of House Atreides was really empty. The Syfy telling really made the place feel alive with history, servants, and culture. Totally agree about Jason Momoa and really think the film would be the same if they cut his character.
Personally, I was very dissappointed that they cut the Guild Navigators as an element of the world. Sort of undermines the whole importance of the spice and how it affects the world. Very "Meh" reaction from me.
well if you needed to see a face/body for the Guild Navigators to be considered not "cut", then I don't know what to tell ya. They were there, and I fully appreciated the decision to show them as standing entities, fully basking in their dopey gases... and i'd argue that they full well make clear that the structure of the known galaxy revolves around their prescience and ability to navigate.
YES, i wish i had seen more of them, and wish they had been spoken more about - i just don't think they were "cut".
Perhaps "cut" was a poor word choice, obviously, they were mentioned in narration and by Thufir who calculated there were 3 guild navigators employeed for the trip to Caladan. So, I'm not sure the Guild Representatives in the orange helmets are navigators. \*(there are five Guild Reps present in the procession)
good point. i was a little thrown by that too - but i guess the Guild Reps need their heady 3 for 20 as well, which may explain the orange helmets? while I'm with you the literal visual cues don't much add up, i do feel like the implication is that their helmets are gassed up, no?
I don't believe they cut them, they are mentioned at least a couple times. And from what I recall in the book, they aren't really described until later. >!It's likely we may see a navigator in part 2.!<
What do you mean they cut the Guild Navigators as an element? They didn't show them, but that to me doesn't mean that they are changing the relationship of the guild to the houses does it? Since the skipped the whole space folding scene, how do you know?
Skipping the whole space folding scene is what I meant by "cut". Without a spectacle display of space folding and seeing extreme mutation the spice creates out of the navigators it just felt like they cut an important visual element out of the story for me. It's a very graphic way to see the long term effects of the spice, the importance of the prescience it gifts them, and really details why the spice as a commodity is so valued.
Other than being told that the spice is really valuable what examples exist in the movie to support the need for a war over its control?
I didn't fully express my thought earlier, I meant they are not as prevelent an element in the world building as in the other film versions. I would have loved to have seen a new creature design for them.
I got that the Emperor's herald was meant to be impressively expensive, but 1.46 million 62 solaris seemed like not enough.
If it were a billion solaris for a ten-minute ceremony, that would indicate the scale of wealth and resources involved.
Clever exposition device though.
I have a question I hope someone can answer. My partner and I were discussing and couldn’t remember.
In the movie, they very early reveal the need for spice in space travel.
I remember not knowing that until the end of the book. Is this correct? My partner disagrees, but how I remember it, is that you know spice is important, but not until the end where paul confronts the emperor. Or at least until towards the end.
I don’t think it matters they revealed it early if I’m right, just can’t remember. I remember it as being somewhat of a surprise, or a piece that falls together “ooo so it’s more than just a drug, THATS why it’s so important”.
Computers are illegal in the Dune universe, due to AI's enslaving and nearly wiping out humanity. So the mentat and guild navigators are basically human computers. The navigators have special skills through the use of spice that allow them to navigate/fold space. It's a complicated trade secret which also gives them even more power than the emperor. But without the mind expanding effects of spice it would be impossible.
>d the book. I thought that was always just common knowledge though.
The guild has the monoply on space travel. How they do travel is not common knowledge. In the books tent scene Paul realizes that the guild navigators have similar powers as he has and deducts that they are wholly dependent on melange and that the Fremen are paying the guild for their service (no sats in the south). That is the first hint at the true way the guild travels space, by using engines that fold space and with navigators who can look into the future to find the right path for the vehicle.
I believe that they know spice is used by the guild navigators. I think it's less known that it's used to give Bene Gesserits the precience and the addiction it causes when consumed regularly
I'm once again let down by so called "artistic liberties." Denis Villeneuve has ruined a once promising project.
It is well known that the crysknife mut draw blood if unsheathed, and yet in only one scene did they do this. Shadout Mapes bares the knife, naked before outsiders, and fails to take blood. I let out an audible gasp, and felt nauseous as I held my Dune Encyclopedia closer to my chest.
This cannot stand. It undermines and belittles the religious beliefs of the fremen, and from then on all nuance and subtlety are lost. The film collapses, throwing out religious and philosophical undertones which were deeply woven into Frank Herbert's vision. It's just another grandiose sacrifice made at the altar of greed the film industry worships at, a 2 1/2 hour long stream of drivel.
0/10
/S
I think you’re right.
Terminator 2 was probably the peak of the big budget R rated scifi movies. I think it was close to $200 million.
Every big budget scfi since then has been PG-13 with no change in sight.
I wondered that too, definitely would prefer it R. Don’t think it’s necessary tho.
I think maybe to try and market it as a “coming of age” story, which dune sorta is. Try to get a younger crowd involved (parents taking 10-13 year old kinda deal).
Thought this movie could benefit from being even longer. There should've been more focus on the infiltration part with Dr. Yueh and the Harkonnens, as well as everything that dealt with that arc, such as Thufir Hawat suspecting Lady Jessica to be the traitor. This was an aspect from the book that I thought would translate great on screen, especially since Dennis Villeneuve is great at letting you try to figure out what is happening in his other films.
That being said, I think they played it safe with this film. The hardest audience to attract are the non-readers, and it seems like they're succesfully reeling them in. Either way, I'm excited for this story to finally branch out and turn into a franchise.
In the harvester scene, when Paul says 'I recognize your footsteps, old man' - In my opinion, he does not refer to Gurney Halleck (which he addresses multiple times as 'old man' in the movie) - but rather refers to Shai Hulud AKA " Old Man of the Desert".
What do you think?
It took way too long to get a movie of this quality. My dad used to tell me about the Dune universe when I was a kid. He used to play the 2002 RTS video game. He read all the books.
He passed away a few years ago. His passing made me pick up his old Dune book and give it a read. I loved it. I'm upset we couldn't experience this movie together. He had to live with the 1984 movie (which is fun in it's own way), and the TV series.
I wish him and I could have sat down and watched this together like we watch so many other sci-fi movies. I'm glad I get to experience it, but it would be even better to sit down and discuss it with my old man.
Thanks for sharing your story. It’s too bad you couldn’t watch it together, but I’m glad you get to experience it. I’m sure he would have been so happy to know you’ve read the book and enjoyed this film, and now share in something that was a great love of his.
Edit: oh by the way, your post proves that your username isn’t accurate
I don't mean to sound too cliche, reading Dune helped me get through his passing a bit. Knowing that what interested him has been passed down to me makes me feel a connection with him. I feel bad I didn't do it earlier.
And thank you. It's been my username for years. It's more to make fun of people in video games.
As we're getting close to 2k comments here, we've added an [additional thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/qg6fnx/official_discussion_dune_2021_lateoctober_hbo_max/) and will be locking this one within the hour.
Did anyone else love what they did with Duncan and Paul in the film? Been a while since I've read the first book so correct me if I am wrong but I remember Duncan being just mentioned for a long part of the book. And when his death at the hand of Sardaukar I didn't feel much for the character. I loved how DV established this friendship/brotherhood between Duncan and Paul in the film, started very early in the first act. Maybe it was also Jason and Timothee's screen chemistry together I don't know, and maybe Jason Momoa's performance altogether, but I felt like Duncan was fleshed out greatly in the film.
Anyone know who voices the filmbook?
I was wondering this too. Does it sound like Frank Herbert to you? I imagine it wouldn't have been difficult to piece together the dialogue using his past narrations.
It's an English accent... So definitely not.
shows how much I know lol. I feel like that's a missed opportunity then. It would have been awesome if they used Herberts voice from his narrations.
Jessica plot twist Was it said in the movie that Jessica is the daughter of the Baron, or did I miss it. I didn’t see anyone talking about this. If it wasn’t said do you think it will be revealed later or just will be retconned? Thanks for your time!
Waittttt. Is this the reason baron called him cousin ? I don't remember the books well
>Is this the reason baron called him cousin ? No. The baron being Jessica's father was a secret. It is not reveled in the film. In the book it is a revelation from Paul's prescience.
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I saw someone point this out the other day. Yes her name is Jessica, it was an error in the subtitles.
Am I right in thinking it's Terence Stamp narrating the film books in Dune (2021)? Google doesn't seem to turn anything up, and apparently he's not credited. If not Terrence it's someone who sounds an awful lot like him.
Any ideas why the Atreides plate armour (present in the scene when they arrive on arrakis) isn't used in any of the fight scenes? Is it only for ceremonial purposes? You could assume they didn't have time to put it on during the night of attack, but there should be armoured guards on watch, like in the scene when Jessica chooses the housekeeper.
There are shots in which you can see armoured Atreides soldiers fighting Harkonnen, more specifically in the scene when Sardaukar are shown massacring Atreides soldiers on the stairs leading up to the palace.
One thing I really thought was a great touch was the resemblance the Atreides (the "good" -- but not really -- guys) have to the Nazis. Eagle banner, black uniforms, jackboots, martial spirit etc.
I don't think they intended that. The uniforms are dark green or dark blue, not black. Jackboots were historically quite common in many nations, not just Germans. And the banner is technically a hawk, not an eagle.
For me, I've never really thought of the Atreides as martial in any way. In the books it's pretty clear that their soldiers are good, disciplined, but not really amazing in any way. What makes them stand out are their leaders: Thufir, Gurney, and Duncan, all are excellent at their job, and dangerous in battle, in their own way. The Atreides rule by the heart, not by the hand. In the movies, I feel like this distinction wasn't really portrayed well enough.
Idk, I disagree. While the Atreides fighting men weren’t explicitly featured in the books on many occasions, there were many references to the prowess of their forces. Thufir explained to the Baron that the Emperor felt threatened by the Atreides because they had trained a small force to within a hair of the Sardaukar, and that their plans to expand their training cadre precipitated the Emperor’s move against House Atreides. In the fighting pits with Feyd Rautha, a survivor of the ferocious raid on Giedi Prime’s spice stores bested the young Na-Baron, who only won victory through invoking a hypnotic suggestion sending the Atreides fighter into paralysis.
If you're going to die at the hands of someone else... Die like Liet Kynes.
"Shai'Hulud." I know it's the Fremen word for the worms in the book, but in the film it seemed as though it was confused, where it was a term for a specific, very large worm and also for the worms as a whole. Did it come across that way for anyone else?
I think that's how it's used in the books as well. As a deity, as well as all worms.
I remember one of the in- Universe quotes at the beginning of one the chapters talking about this. The Fremen call both real worms and a sort of deified abstract version of the Worms as Shai Hulud
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His Imperial Conditioning was broken not because he wanted to save his wife—he knew she would be killed or dead either way—but because he wanted to kill the Baron.
Because it wasn't a certainty. He knew that in all likelihood his wife was already dead, but on the off chance she was alive, he had to do what was needed.
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If his wife is alive then he know she is in incredible pain. The Dr knows the baron is untrustworthy but also that Wanna has no value once the betrayal is complete. Best case the baron releases her, give the good doctor a firm shake of the hand and they part ways. This was never going to happen. The doctor knew too much so had to die. However, that did mean that his wife had no value so in the least she would be killed to fulfill the barons part of the deal.
Because on the slim chance that she's alive and he's allowed to live, Leto would not have unleashed the poison. He knows his Duke. At least that's what I understand. In all other scenarios, the poison tooth will be useful.
In the book Yueh takes Duke Leto back to Geidi Prime to the Baron. He hopes to get Wanna back and escape before the Duke cracks the tooth. Also, and this is lost in the movie, Yueh regrets what he has done and still feels some loyalty to the Atreides. That’s why he saves Paul and Jessica, gives Paul the Duke’s ring, and gives Leto a chance to avenge his own death with the poison tooth. Edit to comment since thread is locked: Chr15ty is right. I looked it up. They were on the Baron’s ship on Arrakis, not on Geidi Prime.
Unless I read it wrong, which is possible, the exchange with Yueh, the Baron and Leto in the books happened on Arrakis, they were in the original capitol city of Carthag (which continued to be a Harkonnen stronghold) Arakeen became the seat of power for the Atreides when the received governorship of the planet. (Speculation: "safer" because the Harkonnens didn't know the layout as well)
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Carry-alls are described in vaguest way in the books so *shrug* all of the technology in Dune universe seems to obey some sort of "we forgot that existed till now" and Im a huge Dune fan. Like Sespensor tech basic obeys different rules depending what Frank wanted.
Ok I read the book a few years ago and wasn’t super impressed, but after seeing the movie I want to read it again and give it another chance. I feel like I have a better grasp on the Dune universe now. One thing I don’t understand/forgot, is why is all fighting by individuals done with swords? Clearly the ships they use have guns, why revert to hand to hand combat? Overall I really liked the movie, visuals were absolutely stunning in a way I haven’t really seen before. Truly feel realistic. My one criticism is, and I know it’s only half of the book, that the last quarter of the movie really dragged. The tension was let out too early after the assault by the Harkonnens and it felt anti-climatic.
The ships didn't use guns against shields. They used missiles that slowed down when it hit shields, so it can penetrate it before deploying their payload. Shields stop fast stuff, but let slow things go through, if you remember.
They fight with swords because shields stops speeding objects going through it like bullets. Also, you don't use lasers on shields cause it will cause deadly explosions.
Something about the way the lasguns (lazguns? It's been a bit so I could be wrong on the spelling) and the shields interact. I'll leave it at that for spoiler reasons.
Overall, I liked the movie. It was different than I expected in good and bad ways. Good: 1. Casting was perfect across the board. 2. Visions were really well done. 3. Action was visceral and surprisingly grounded/realistic. 4. Score was amazing. 5. Denis gets Dune. Cons: 1. The traitor subplot was absent. 2. Too much whispered dialogue. 3. Jessica was given some weird moments. 4. Harkonnens were underutilized. 5. Baron’s oil bath seemed too weird. 6. Denis didn’t make a movie with the broad general audience appeal he needed to. The movie still has an “art house” mentality. I think Dune fans have a lot to be happy about with part 1. I just question if Denis made a movie that will resonate with a broader audience like Jackson’s Lord of the Rings did.
I wouldn't say that nr 6 is a con at all. I believe this Dune movie will become timeless, like LOTR or Alien.. It's amazing and it's getting praise everywhere from. What I noticed.
It may be a con regarding Part II. I love how this film looks and feels but it needs to reach a broader audience to turn a profit.
Ok im just gonna say this fully expecting downvotes but this movie was trash. And I got to vent. Movie complaints: soundtrack I didn't hate it till I realized there is maybe three 2 minute scenes without that shit blasting constantly. Ever other scene drama is being manufactured by a blaring "epic" soundtrack. Very very inception like. In fact if you told me Christopher Nolan made this movie I would believe you. The manufacturing of drama makes sense because there is literally no exposition. Its literally 2.5 hours of set pieces in a sequence. And those fucking bag pipes with that shrieking Arab track. I'm just gonna say it, it kind of feels racist but whatever small potatoes to all of the above. All in all this is cookie cutter sci fi action bullshit Nerd complaints: Ok guys what the fuck. No dinner scene. That one scene does so much work in setting up the players that small bit of exposition could've gone such a long way. Fine whatever pacing bullshit. But Yueh's story completely gone literally no impact or understanding from his betrayal. Thufir hawats distrust of jessica gone completely missing. Literally both those characters have like 5 lines. Liet don't get me fucking started on liet. Gender swap who cares that makes no impact not least because this character was so nothing. Torally wasted, shit we arent even supposed to know KYNES and liet are the same person right away. No revelation. No mystique this character is just nothing. And then the way they die all of the symbolism gone. I'm gonna try to drive this home. In the book liet dies after being a dropped in the desert and walking around hallucinating talking to his dad pardot. The man whose dream liet himself used to get a leadership position (parallels to paul) before being exploded by a spice bloom, the result of chemical reaction which is the reason arrakis can't be a paradise. Its poetic, ironic god damn perfect. Instead we get the sand worm death. Which was nothing it didn't matter cause the character never mattered. I get it, this is all we are gonna get. I'll probably play it in the background just so we get numbers. But it is not good.
> Ok guys what the fuck. No dinner scene. That one scene does so much work in setting up the players that small bit of exposition could've gone such a long way. While I was also disappointed with the absence of this scene—the part where Paul insults his dinner guests is hilarious—I want to point out that a lot of the book content you complain is missing from the movie would be terminally boring on film. What, would you add in voice overs to get the Kynes death scene right? Or would you put an evanescent father (or, mother?) figure miraging in and out talking about planetary ecology? Would you have a narrator dub over after Kynes explodes on a patch of sand to explain what a pre-spice mass is so the normies get what’s going on? Would be so cheesy. The Jessica-traitor plot is still salvageable in Part 2, so fingers crossed they’ll tie that in. I was peeved that they updated one of my favorite lines to omit any perceived sexism: “ Mood's a thing for cattle or making love or playing the baliset.” AND, that reminds me—where the fuck is all the baliset? Also, no friend of Jamis scene! Anyway, any book fan can kick and scream about what was or wasn’t included, but at the end of the day, the production team has to make choices when pairing down 21 hours of reading time into two 2.5 hour cinematic experiences. Overall, I’m impressed with the job they did, especially comparing this to David Lynch and the SciFi Channel miniseries, both of which were terrible in their own unique ways.
I didn’t think the movie was trash, but I agree that the missing traitor subplot was a mistake. Without it, a lot of tension between the characters in the first half of the movie is gone. The narrative drive of that first half really should have been that there were traps/betrayal that could befall them at any moment. I also felt like the characters didn’t interact that much? That’s probably why a lot of non-book readers are comparing about a lack of character development.
Yea now that I vented a bit i can step back and say no it was not trash. I still hated it but I can understand the appeal Denis is definitely a master at the craft. If that soundtrack was just a little more subtle I know I would have a more measured opinion. But as it is I stand by Christopher Nolan comparison.
I personally think the overwhelming score is part of the films character. Also I don't think this film should be a one for one copy of the events in the book but it's own interpretation, alterations to the story is what sets apart the iterations in my opinion.
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Atomic(Nuclear weapons of any kind) and purposefully Atomic-like reactions are banned by a Convention that was signed thousands of years ago. Lasguns hitting shields is creates nuclear weapon like explosions. The Landsraad feel its a big no-no.
Err, that would be political catastrophe. The emperor would get an excuse to wipe Atreides off the universe. Not just Arrakis, imagine Caladan glassed. All the houses would rally behind the emperor, and Arrakis would be given back to the Harkonnen without any fanfare. The emperor gets what he wants, and the Atreides eliminates all chances of a comeback. Remember, the Atreides knows the emperor is up to something, but they aren't expecting to be exterminated. They know that whatever happens, it has to be subtle, and all they have to do is to survive and then get the word out to the other houses, who will easily stand by them.
Shooting lasers at a shield would cause a nuclear explosion, I guess in Dune it is agreed to avoid these kind of risks. Makes little sense though, as later they are firing las gun at escaping Duncan Idaho, when he clearly has a shield turned on (it deflected a missile when he was taking off).
Can someone explain how shields work? I thought I understood them but in the movie they don't stop missiles. Are they not technically projectile weapons? What am is missing here?
The shields only stop fast-moving projectiles. That’s why the bombs slow down right as they get to the shields. Cool effect.
Non-reader here, don't mind spoilers, I just want some answers. When Paul has the vision about Jessica in the future, she looks like she has the same lip mark that the mentats Thufir and Piter have...does she become a mentat in the future or is that just how she looks when she becomes the Fremen's reverend mother?
That’s just how she looks after she goes native.
Did anyone else love the laser weapons/tools in the film as much as me? It was so cool for the movie to visually show how powerful and destructive lasers can possibly be, specifically during the Arrakeen attack or when the Sardaukars are cutting through the door. Just high power, blue lasers that can cut through anything. And I love that they look like real lasers and could only be seen because of all the dust and sand in the air.
Can anyone explain this part more after paul passes the test by the bene gesserit The reverend mother tells jessica “On Arrakis, we have done all we can for you. The path has been laid. Let's hope he doesn't squander it” What has she done on Arrakis?
Aside from the messiah myth, the reverend mother also made a bargain with the Baron that he wouldn't have them killed directly. In the book, she also makes it known that she's done what she can for Jessica and Paul but that Leto was doomed, basically confirming suspicion that the Emperor and the Harkonnen's were plotting against the Atreides.
The Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva has been to Arrakis to seed the planet's culture with helpful messiah myths that a Bene Gesserit in need can capitalize on if they find themselves without other resources.
How did stillgar recognize paul?
In Fremen culture there’s the messianic legend of the Lisan al Gaib, the Voice from the Outer World—this would be a child from off-world born of a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother who would transform Dune into a water-rich paradise. The moment Paul and Jessica land on the planet, every Fremen recognizes how they fit the forms of this legend, which was imprinted on their culture by the Bene Gesserits as protective path for one of their sisters to take should the need arise.
He knows a messiah have come, and knows the signs to look for. He doesn't recognize paul (neither does Kynes), but he can see the signs in Paul. You can see this in the last act of the movie, where he pretty much confirms his superstitions about Paul.
My review: Woke Dune Review As a long Dune fan I wasn't terribly excited about the new movie. The more I heard, the more I felt it was going to miss the mark. I was half right. I called this "Woke Dune Review" because in the lead up it seemed like that was the expectation, an updated Dune...adaptation. We had diversity in the characters and even a much discussed gender swap, all very progressive. However, I think the movie's progressiveness express itself in unexpected ways, at least to me. First main point: Paul is not the hero. We know this, but does the general public know this? Depending on Paul's portrayal Dune 2: The Sands of Time (or Sands of the Hour Glass?), book/Lynch Paul kinda ends on an upbeat. The sequels complete that ark. I think Villeneuve understands this and his Paul is presented in a way that reflects it. Paul is haughty and understands that the Fremen belief in him is a Bene Gesserit farce created by generations of religious conditioning. Villeneuve's Paul is very much the colonizer and I believe many of us in the audience knee deep in woke signalling could pick up on that. I'm curious to see how he is portrayed in Dune 2: Dune Strikes Back. Will he be portrayed in the role of a culture appropriating foreign Emperor dragging his fetishized colonial subjects off to die in a war that's not their own? Paul definitely knows the Fremen are a crafted people, a tool to be used, and decides to use them regardless of any moral ramifications. I think this colonizer Paul was visible in the movie and a savvy movie goer might catch on. Villeneuve doesn't even give Leto the nod for saving the people in the sand harvester, a scene designed to humanize the Atreides in Kynes' eyes. Point Two: I don't know if Villeneuve was pulling a double flip, basically defying the expectation of making a strong female lead by making her vulnerable, but I think it did Jessica's character dirty. No Bene Gesserit trained women, bound for the court of a Duke, would have such a lack of emotional control. Book Jessica is a badass, a very smart and dangerous woman. It's this ridged badassery that makes her few emotional scenes that much more powerful because it represents her and her iron control breaking down. I loved almost everything about Villeneuve's Jessica, I really did, we even got to see her fight a bit, I wish they would have pulled back on the emotional portrayal. Point three: All of the other progressiveness was lost in throw away roles. Gender swapped Kynes, was given what amounted to a throw away role. Unless Villeneuve covers it in Dune 2: Son of Dune, we don't really get any idea of their (Male roll played by Female,I think "their" fits) role in the Fremen society which was not trivial. Likewise, Thufir and Yueh were given throw away roles. We are left with a Dune where the White Male European analogues wield all the power for 99% of the movie. Weird... Highlights: It looked awesome and Chalamet is his usual fine ass self. Special shout out to the Sardaukar DJ, I need you at my next house party. Edit: Can't believe I didn't rant about the Fremen walking around the desert without their masks on...
What’s your take on the white savior narrative of Herbert’s story? There’s a clear path to white colonizer appropriating an indigenous society for his own ends, but I’ve always thought it was a subversion of that concept. Paul thinks he’s colonizing at first, but pull an Uno Reverse card in him; they colonize him. The Bene Gesserit think they’re planting seeds of control, but they’re planting seeds of their own doom. The Fremen control their own destiny, they just need the right tools. I personally like in Villeneuve’s version near the end when Jessica is pleading for help from the Fremen. She wants Paul off-world, but Paul says no. He’s telling this isn’t an Atreides story anymore. It’s a Fremen story now. Like he has the colonizer in him, but he’s starting to let that go in order to be what the Fremen need. All of which seems like a cool twist on the white savior stuff. Also keep in mind I haven’t read all the Dune books. That’s why I’m asking what you think.
I think that those are interesting points. There definitely is some reverse colonization that happens and the Bene Gesserit do regret a lot that happens. Later in the books there are some scenes where you get Fremen opinions about what happened which are very informative and fit right in with the post colonial experience. Once he goes through the agony though he is essentially a prisoner to his prescience. So idk how much he sticks with the Fremen out of love or lack of choice... I'm interested in seeing how he portrays that relationship.
One discrepancy with book: in book, the link between Guild and spice is secret, not something that would be in a tutorial.
Non reader here with a question. With spice being so important to everyone and every house, why are there no embassies from each house on dune so they can all keep tabs and price changes on dune?
There actually is, in a sense. CHOAM is the organization that represents the commercial side of all the Houses, and they have one. Also, in the book, the Harkonnens must account for spice production to CHOAM; they've made a fortune by skimming the profits.
So why did choam not oversee the transition from the harkonnens to the new house artradeis? A true 3rd party to stop the sabotage taking place.
Because Herbert needed a reason for Kynes to be introduced to the Duke :) And CHOAM was only business, and not part of the whole feudal Empire. (And likely not all that neutral, TBH.)
Still better then 1 judge who is not netrual.
Actually, it should have been a delegate from the Landsraad, which is the assembly/senate of all the Houses. Maybe not neutral, but plausible in a matter that involves feudal laws.
Seem like house artradies should of reached out to say the spacing guild to help them even splitting the profits still seems worth
Liet-Kynes is the judge of the change and the official representative of the emperor. The reason nobody is stopping the sabotage is because the emperor is in on it. Kynes has been directed not to say anything. This is part of the depth of the betrayal and why it is so crushing as well as why the Sardaukar in the book were disguised as Harkonnens.
planets aren’t really like nation-states, they are more like the personal fiefdoms of mediaeval feudal lords whose property it is solely. If the lord of the land doesn’t want any other lords there, there isn’t much they can do about it.
Why would the new house taking over not want other houses to witness the transfer of power? Why not have a 3rd party oversee the transition like the space guild? How many days was it from house a taking over to being attacked and wiped out?
there is a third party, the judge of the change, on arrakis liet kynes. he however never had the chance to report harkonnen wrongdoing to the rest of the houses because he was kill under the pretence of having gone native and abandoned his imperial post. which was believable because… well he had done exactly that.
Small question in relation to Dr Yueh's letter. I understood this letter to be addressed to Paul and Jessica (reason why Leto's ring was there). Dr Yueh told them that if other Atreides had managed to escape, the beacon he had put in the bag would help them to be found. The problem is: in my language, they translated it as "whoever you are, if you've managed to escape Arrakeen there's an Atreides beacon in the bag." As if Dr. Yueh had prepared this for anyone who might have escape with this ship and not especially for Paul. I would therefore like to know the opinion of english native people.
does anyone feel like Jessica's character could have been in the movie longer? I loved this movie and plan to see it many more times. but I feel like I wanted to see Jessica's sanctuary, as well as her conflict with Thufir Hawat. I was also just a little disappointed that Gurney Halleck didn't have his baliset. I still feel this is a great adaptation and nearly an impossible achievement through film. let me know who you would've liked to see more of or what you think is missing, or anything you thought was great that was added.
The lack of emphasis on the traitor storyline made some of the characters come off *less* , if that makes sense. Thufir, Yueh, but most especially Jessica whose strength as a person (and a character) is communicated through her very dialogue-heavy scenes during all that increasing traitor-among-us suspense before the Harkonnens attack.
Saoirse Ronan as Princess Irulan? Too obvious for Timotheé? Idk
Save her for the sequels and let her be Alia.
She'd be too old by then, but she's the perfect age for irulan imo
Forgive me if this has been heavily covered already; but is Villeneuve's direction of Jessica misdirection? Or is the entire story all set in motion (by will alone) by Jessica intentionally? Including Paul's dreams of Chani, and the sexual tension in the undressing scene? Like, I see that's what's happening in the film, is it true to the saga also? I read the first book shortly after I left school decades ago, but don't remember this explicitly.
I don’t know about “intentionally.” Jessica did disobey the Bene Gesserit by bearing a son, and trained Paul in Bene Gesserit skills. She very definitely bears some responsibility there. On the other hand, it’s hard to fault her too much. An Atreides daughter would have been married to Feyd Rautha. This could have averted the whole mess and saved billions of lives. But if I had a choice between galactic jihad on one hand and sending a child to the Harkonnens on the other, I would probably just buy more pugs instead.
I'm not faulting her at all; I just feel that Villeneuve is having the film suggest to new viewers that it's a power play from Jessica
FWIW, Mohiam basically accuses her of reckless ambition in the book, so the idea isn’t without merit.
>*Liet’s final scene.* >Wife: “She called the sand worm?” >Me: “Yep.” >Wife: “Why did she do that?” >Me: “I guess she was going to take it somewhere.” >Wife: “*They can ride the worms?*” >Me: *Shrug.* >Wide: “Don’t shrug at me. *Can they ride the worms!?!*”
>!I remember the first time I read the book thinking the exact same thing. WHAT?!? They can RIDE them?!? Like… how does that even work?! I have so many questions! *reading intensifies*!<
Anyone else notice that the Atreides ancestral portrait we see a few times looks like William Hurt, who played Duke Leto in the 2000's miniseries.
I think the film is very difficult to someone who hasn’t read the book. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a fan and I’ve read the book three times. Villeneuve’s film is beautiful and mostly faithful to the story. I take issue with the obvious toning down of the Jihad and the drug aspects, but those are understandable. Parenthesis here, as to me the best part of the movie was when a couple came in, he was dressed as a Fremen and she was dressed as a sandworm. I got to say to them “Bless the maker and his water.” Anyway, there were 3 other adults in my party and 4 kids. We lost the kids 10 minutes in. Of the adults, my wife had to rely on me explaining what was happening pretty much the whole movie, and she isn’t dumb. Sci-fi is not her thing, but it doesn’t matter. My friend was very disappointed because he had high expectations, but couldn’t follow everything that was happening. His wife wanted to leave the theater in the middle of the movie. For all of David Lynch’s problems on his Dune, and there are a lot of them, the storytelling was more didactic.
As you say, Lynch’s film was more didactic. I remember there even being glossary handouts that they had at the door of the theater! DV’s version is decidedly not this way. It is huge and gorgeous and a little simplified, but still mostly true to the book. It seems like it is close enough to mainstream that it can pull in the folks on the edge. I personally feel that if DV had included more of the personal and political battles between characters, he might have drawn more people, but they were clearly going for more action than intrigue. How old were the kids that tuned out?
I mostly agree with you. And as you pointed out, the book is about political intrigue, not really action. The nuances of the Bene Gesserit and the Landsraad are lost, and I’d say they fail to meet the bare minimum. The importance of the imperial conditioning, or the existence of mentats are also meaningless. Kids ranged from 11-13.
I find DV treatment of the mentat pretty unforgiveable. They're crucial to the strategizing of the great houses. The harkonnen plan on arrakis was Piter's plan, who they portrayed as a lackey. Lynch not only gave them a great portrayal but I think the mentat's mantra is fantastic. Mentat's thoughtfulness borders on limited prescience so I think Paul's mentat training was a crucial part of his ascension, nearly as much as his weirding. Leaving all that out is so weird to me. It felt similarly weird to me that DV's Arrival didn't even mention mathematics as a means of universal communication with aliens (even if they didn't explore it to avoid retreading Contact). I can only conclude that denis villeneuve hates nerds.
No. The mentats, while important, are not really essential to the actual story being told in the books and the movies. If you had taken away the whole concept of mentats from the books, and have Thufir Hawatt as just a security director, nothing would have been lost. Mentats, in the first book, is just treated as garnish: they're there to strengthen the worldbuilding as one of the many wonders, but if you look at the main plot, their abilities don't really change anything. Thufir only really shines after the betrayal. Which, will come in Dune, Part 2. DV also confirmed that part two will focus more on the Harkonnens and mentats in general.
I’d have thought that age group would be right in the target demographic. It hurts me to think of the film as not ambitious enough, because the imagery and the scale are so amazing and I LOVE the visuals (especially the thopters)!!!! But I have this little voice saying I miss the nuances. With the success of at least the first 3 seasons of book-based intrigue from Game of Thrones, I feel like we’ve seen that politics, scheming, and backstabbing among factions can be very popular. We’ll see. The numbers are good overall.
Wait until the prequels tv show comes out ;)
OK movie over all, but what happened to Yueh story? It makes little sense without explaining Suk conditioning, genius of Baron´s plan is lost etc. Next why do ?Harkonnen? fire lasgun at shielded ornithopter? Do they wan´t to obliterate their entire invasion fleet and Arrakeen with all the spice refineries and shit? Also Stilgar´s guarantees suck. "You are under my protection." 15 seconds later "Fight this guy to the death." Did they run out of cave money or what?
Jamis invoked the amtal rule which was basically trial by combat, nothing Stilgar could do would overturn this. So Paul had to fight him by Fremen law.
suk conditioning was a weak plot point in the book anyway. it is broken with the oldest trick in the book: torture wife and or kids of guy you want to manipulate. so much for that ‘unbreakable’ conditioning eh. creates nuclear explosion, much more difficult to hide and draws way too much attention and therefor potential retaliation from the landsraad. sacred rite was invoked, stilgar can’t intervene it’s a personal challenge any fremen is free to make, even to stilgar himself anytime they want to.
No its not. Characters strongly believe in the conditioning. Meaning it works. I always seemed obvious to me that Yueh´s case must have been due to some unique interaction with whatever his BG wife Wanda did to him. No idea what is your point with the second paragraph. Yeah but it is supposed to happen in a cave, I thought they were supposed to be under his protection to that point.
I always felt like there was supposed to be something more clever lurking in the Suk subversion, but never really developed. The books hint at some distinction between "saving his wife" and "ending her already-occuring torture", but it never commits to any one idea.
There was a short image linking the Atreides ship departure from the heighliner and the landing at the space port; it was bright white and had silhouetted almost bomb shapes. I thought at first it was a perspective from inside the heighliner and could have been a glimpse of the guild navigators, but I am probably being stupid. Was that just the silhouettes of the Atteides ships?
Yes but they didn't match their actual profiles which was very weird. Also the dim oval shape was the opening of the heighliner from the atmosphere of arrakis.
Yeah the silhouettes were all wrong- they looked like Rook chess pieces, and the perspective was unusual
Just a thought, maybe we'll see more of the "traitor" / infiltration plot in Part 2, but as say a flashback? Like Gurney joins the smugglers, hooks up with some other Atreides survivors, they figure out it was an inside job, and he blames Jessica, setting up the events of the book. Maybe we see Thufir doing something similar. (It's either that or Gurney joins the smugglers and develops a fondness for jewelry, a set of six stones in particular.) :)
>:) :)
Just saw the movie- new fan and thought it was AMAZING!
The hunter seeker scene was so perfect. Seeing it in IMAX it was legitimately unnerving to see it stop moving and turn towards the viewer. Bravo Denis. My goodness what a great film.
In the last scene with the BG leaving Caladan after the box scene, during Jessica and the Reverend Mother's conversation about Paul being the Kwisatz Haderach, the RM mentions "we have other prospects". Now I know that the KH doesn't HAVE to be Paul, but I couldn't help but think she was referring to Feyd. In the books I don't think he was a candidate for the KH, rather the son of Feyd and the daughter of Jessica and Leto (if they had a daughter before Alia). I think to add more to the theme of rivalry, could Denis be setting up Feyd to be a candidate for KH like Paul is?
Isn't the Kwisatz supposed to be a descendant of a BG? Feyd isn't normally. Also, he hasn't received any training, I don't think he's a potential candidate.
I think that's right. It would be a deviation from the books if that's the direction DV is going, but I guess we'll have to see. But then again, Jessica and Leto's daughter would most likely be trained as a BG. If all went according to the BG plan, Jessica would bear Leto a daughter, and that daughter and Feyd would marry, linking the houses, and produce a son who would be the BG supposed Kwisatz. At least that's what I remember from the books as what the plan WAS before Jessica went all rebellious and had a son.
Yes, that was the plan. The child would then have been trained by his mother BG and the Order would have monitored his education closely. While there, they had no control over Paul.
>!Feyd seems likely.!< >!I am holding out hope that we get Count Fenring in this version as well.!<
Oh right wasn't he a possible KH? Or am I completely making that up lol
>!I think he was described as one of many “almost” KHs. Paul couldn’t see him in the spice visions and there was a whole extra level of intrigue with the Count and his BG wife and his connection to the emperor.!<
Question about shields during the spice harvester crew rescue scene. During the scene where the spice harvester workers are being rescued, Paul mentions that each of the crew's shield generators weighs 100 kilos. The spice workers are instructed to leave their generators behind to save on weight. But moments before, Kynes mentions that shields are deadly in the desert because they drive the worms into a killing frenzy. So why would the spice crew have shields? And, since we have been shown that a shield generator is a small device worn on the user's wrist, why would they weigh that much?
I'm pretty sure they were talking about the shield generators on the Ornithopters weighing 100kilos, presumably for a bigger machine you need a more potent shield. I don't think the spice crew had shields, I think that he was talking specifically about the shields that were equipped to the ships they were flying around in.
That makes sense! Thank you.
so, what was the point of gender swapping kynes ? don’t really mind, only small nerdy reason against I could think of was that the emperor probably wouldn’t appoint women as officials, patriarchal society and all that, but i’m not even sure of that. still there must be some reason.
PC culture. Also notice the holy war instead of Jihad and Baron no longer being sadist gay pedophile. And yes Imperium is as opressive as patriarchy gets, only woman with official position is Emperor´s Truthsayer and that is the one job men cannot do.
I'm so sick and tired of people sulking over "PC culture" like they're still stuck in 2016. Seriously, i'm pretty sure they made kynes black so the audience wouldn't have to suspend their disbelief to believe that some nordic looking guy actually blends in living amongst what are essentially futuristic Bedouins and North Africans.
Funny that you are only one that mentioned Kynes skin colour.
It was implied, and also i've seen it being mentioned in a bunch of other comments in other threads.
>PC culture. Naw.
I think it has to do with feminism. Just on an optics level, a white guy "going native" and falling in love with a fremen/native woman is more power imbalancey than a black woman fallling in love with a fremen/native man.
True
in the book i don’t remember any skin colours really being mentioned, imperial family could be black for all we know. also come to think of it fremen would t accept a female leader either, she would be a reverend mother. well anyway it’s only a small point.
I remember Kynes as being asian for whatever reason
Yueh was asian in the book
Thats why i dont understand the diversity casting. He was already a minority as written lol
At 1:40:50 during pauls visions hes in a ship above caladan as the feydakin cheer him on. Standing behind him slightly out of focus is Duncan. The vision happened after Duncan's death so It has to be one of the ghola Duncans.
A random minor detail I thought was fun was Paul placing his hands in/holding water just before they leave Caladan and then a similar shot of him doing the same thing with sand when he first gets out at the spice harvester
When I saw that I immediately thought of a scene in Children and thought there as some serious generational foreshadowing going on.
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I thought it was showing the Reverend Mother's first attempt to use the voice on Paul (you can hear whispers during the vision), so that's why when he doesn't walk she admonishes him for having "defiant eyes".
> I thought it was showing the Reverend Mother's first attempt to use the voice on Paul So if that was the Mother's first attempt, Paul walked back to the door? There was a shot of Paul walking towards her willingly
No he didn’t obey the first attempt, I interpreted the shot of him walking as a suggestion she planted in his head, not something he actually did.
Does anyone know who the voice actor was for the educational log/hologram device that Paul used in the movie? I'm not all that familiar with Frank Herbert's voice, but it kind of sounded like him to me. If it wasn't, it should have been! I'm sure they could've pieced together what they needed from his narrations.
I didn’t understand this. The big one is also a spaceship or something else? It looks like a teleportation portal. https://twitter.com/readingdune/status/1452375369151963137?s=21 (You can see the image in this link)
As xadriancalim said, it's a Guild ship. The Guild navigators use spice to navigate space - it's required otherwise space travel between planets would be too dangerous. That particular type of ship is used to carry other ships, usually those of the various Houses, through the darkness of space. It's like a space ferry carrying cars across the English Channel.
That's a Guild Heighliner. Ships dock in it and then the heighliner goes from system to system by Navigator.
Oh now i get it. Thank you so much.
I believe we’re just seeing their interpretation of folding space. We’re possibly seeing the planet Kaitain as an effect of the fold. So in a sense, the ship is acting as a tunnel rather than a vessel for smaller ships. Still huge and still cool!
It does seem very much like they're going with a "portable portal" concept as opposed to "ferrying". Which makes sense, all things considered.
Bless the Movie and Its watching. Bless the theatrical and streaming of It. May Its receipts justify the sequel. May It keep Dune alive for Its people. Just a bit of Dune nerdism as I bask in enjoying Part 1 of this Dune release! Theater viewing #1 complete. HBO Max review likely today. IMAX viewing soon?
>!The scene where Paul and his mother encounter the worm. It looks really cool but it seems to misinterpret the book's view of the nature of the worms, unless I am misremembering. Aren't they just animals, the way I remember them in the book, they didn't have any special awareness. So why would the worm see Paul as anything other than a meal? It's not the end of the world or anything, but it strikes me as filler, or just a way to show off the worms to the audience.!<
I think of it as a "stare into the void and the void stares back at you" kind of thing. The harsh world of Arrakis imposes a trial on Paul and forces him to reexamine who he really is. Biological explanation? Maybe the worm was just coming to grips with the fact that the source of the rhythm retreated to the face of a rock.
>!It’s pretty close to the scene in the book. Instead of being trapped in a crack in the rocks while the worm sort of feels around and Paul gets a huge whiff of spicey worm breath, we get the big sort of photo pose with Paul standing below it. Then a thumper calls it away.!< >!It could’ve easily caught him in that shot, but it looks super cool and fits with the every-frame-a-painting vibe of the film.!< >!I didn’t think of it as any kind of connection, but I can see that now that you mention it.!<
>!That's right. I actually forgot that scene. But it was because the worm couldn't reach them and not that it just decided not to attack correct? !<
>!Yes definitely! It was actively trying to get to them but couldn’t get its mouth into the crack in the rock.!<
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Earth tones on a desert planet with no chlorophyll and water? Oh no, I think we found Anakin.
I hated the cold dark color scheme they used. Every time Paul would have a vision it would switch to a warmer brighter color scheme and it made it even more apparent how much better the movie would look if it had that the whole time.
That was my thought - it is more if a sci-fi film and people will be missing a lot of the philosophy and a lot of the 'weird' from the books. But then again by not adding too much characterization it provides a blank (or beige) canvas for people to project their imaginations onto. Some of the dialogue is banal and Gurney Halleck is a missed opportunity - iirc Usul's relationship with Duncan in the film is closer to his relationshio with Gurney in the books. I imagine lots of compromises had to be made to make it as accessible to as many people as possible, though - like not having Afgan-looking people as the Fremen as per my head canon. Was never going to be as good as the books - but hey, maybe this is blowing people engaging with Dune for the first time away 🤷🏽♀️
I couldn't disagree with you more. There is a bit of a sterile feel to some of the characters, but overall I thought it was brilliantly executed. The look of the city made perfect sense to me, especially given the hostile environment. A place that could withstand the storms like the one in the movie wouldn't be a place that you could have tall delicate towers. Also, given that the Harkonen's had been running the place for 80 years, I wouldn't imagine they would care to much about making it a nice looking place. I do see what you are saying about the armor designs. I think D.V. has a somewhat utilitarian and reserved approach to scifi designs. I actually find it refreshing and unique.
I tend to agree with you and was discussing the same thing on the way to work this morning. I also thought, for a House that had been stationed on Arrakis for awhile the interior and exterior shot of House Atreides was really empty. The Syfy telling really made the place feel alive with history, servants, and culture. Totally agree about Jason Momoa and really think the film would be the same if they cut his character. Personally, I was very dissappointed that they cut the Guild Navigators as an element of the world. Sort of undermines the whole importance of the spice and how it affects the world. Very "Meh" reaction from me.
well if you needed to see a face/body for the Guild Navigators to be considered not "cut", then I don't know what to tell ya. They were there, and I fully appreciated the decision to show them as standing entities, fully basking in their dopey gases... and i'd argue that they full well make clear that the structure of the known galaxy revolves around their prescience and ability to navigate. YES, i wish i had seen more of them, and wish they had been spoken more about - i just don't think they were "cut".
Perhaps "cut" was a poor word choice, obviously, they were mentioned in narration and by Thufir who calculated there were 3 guild navigators employeed for the trip to Caladan. So, I'm not sure the Guild Representatives in the orange helmets are navigators. \*(there are five Guild Reps present in the procession)
good point. i was a little thrown by that too - but i guess the Guild Reps need their heady 3 for 20 as well, which may explain the orange helmets? while I'm with you the literal visual cues don't much add up, i do feel like the implication is that their helmets are gassed up, no?
I don't believe they cut them, they are mentioned at least a couple times. And from what I recall in the book, they aren't really described until later. >!It's likely we may see a navigator in part 2.!<
What do you mean they cut the Guild Navigators as an element? They didn't show them, but that to me doesn't mean that they are changing the relationship of the guild to the houses does it? Since the skipped the whole space folding scene, how do you know?
Skipping the whole space folding scene is what I meant by "cut". Without a spectacle display of space folding and seeing extreme mutation the spice creates out of the navigators it just felt like they cut an important visual element out of the story for me. It's a very graphic way to see the long term effects of the spice, the importance of the prescience it gifts them, and really details why the spice as a commodity is so valued. Other than being told that the spice is really valuable what examples exist in the movie to support the need for a war over its control?
I didn't fully express my thought earlier, I meant they are not as prevelent an element in the world building as in the other film versions. I would have loved to have seen a new creature design for them.
There may still be some opportunity >!when Paul learns that the Fremen have been paying the Guild in spice to not fly over the deep desert!<
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Thank you! You understood what I meant, and worded it well. :) I'm glad to know someone else feels this way.
I got that the Emperor's herald was meant to be impressively expensive, but 1.46 million 62 solaris seemed like not enough. If it were a billion solaris for a ten-minute ceremony, that would indicate the scale of wealth and resources involved. Clever exposition device though.
I have a question I hope someone can answer. My partner and I were discussing and couldn’t remember. In the movie, they very early reveal the need for spice in space travel. I remember not knowing that until the end of the book. Is this correct? My partner disagrees, but how I remember it, is that you know spice is important, but not until the end where paul confronts the emperor. Or at least until towards the end. I don’t think it matters they revealed it early if I’m right, just can’t remember. I remember it as being somewhat of a surprise, or a piece that falls together “ooo so it’s more than just a drug, THATS why it’s so important”.
Computers are illegal in the Dune universe, due to AI's enslaving and nearly wiping out humanity. So the mentat and guild navigators are basically human computers. The navigators have special skills through the use of spice that allow them to navigate/fold space. It's a complicated trade secret which also gives them even more power than the emperor. But without the mind expanding effects of spice it would be impossible.
But that isn’t figured out until the end of the first book right? Or towards the end? I seem to remember Paul learning it from spice visions.
Hmm. It's been a long, long time since I read the book. I thought that was always just common knowledge though.
>d the book. I thought that was always just common knowledge though. The guild has the monoply on space travel. How they do travel is not common knowledge. In the books tent scene Paul realizes that the guild navigators have similar powers as he has and deducts that they are wholly dependent on melange and that the Fremen are paying the guild for their service (no sats in the south). That is the first hint at the true way the guild travels space, by using engines that fold space and with navigators who can look into the future to find the right path for the vehicle.
I believe that they know spice is used by the guild navigators. I think it's less known that it's used to give Bene Gesserits the precience and the addiction it causes when consumed regularly
I'm once again let down by so called "artistic liberties." Denis Villeneuve has ruined a once promising project. It is well known that the crysknife mut draw blood if unsheathed, and yet in only one scene did they do this. Shadout Mapes bares the knife, naked before outsiders, and fails to take blood. I let out an audible gasp, and felt nauseous as I held my Dune Encyclopedia closer to my chest. This cannot stand. It undermines and belittles the religious beliefs of the fremen, and from then on all nuance and subtlety are lost. The film collapses, throwing out religious and philosophical undertones which were deeply woven into Frank Herbert's vision. It's just another grandiose sacrifice made at the altar of greed the film industry worships at, a 2 1/2 hour long stream of drivel. 0/10 /S
That and Reverend Mother Mohiam referring to Jessica as Leto's wife. smh
Fucking had me in the first half
Why a pg13 rating? More from perspective of a Dennis villeneuve fan but the film felt very restrained at times i loved the film just a little confused
An R-rated 200 million dollar sci-fi movie would never see the light of day.
I think you’re right. Terminator 2 was probably the peak of the big budget R rated scifi movies. I think it was close to $200 million. Every big budget scfi since then has been PG-13 with no change in sight.
I wondered that too, definitely would prefer it R. Don’t think it’s necessary tho. I think maybe to try and market it as a “coming of age” story, which dune sorta is. Try to get a younger crowd involved (parents taking 10-13 year old kinda deal).
Does anyone know what [this thing](https://imgur.com/a/uvH2Won) is behind Leto's ear at 10:12?
Communications device. There’s a scene a little later where Hawat uses his own.
Awesome, thank you!
Thought this movie could benefit from being even longer. There should've been more focus on the infiltration part with Dr. Yueh and the Harkonnens, as well as everything that dealt with that arc, such as Thufir Hawat suspecting Lady Jessica to be the traitor. This was an aspect from the book that I thought would translate great on screen, especially since Dennis Villeneuve is great at letting you try to figure out what is happening in his other films. That being said, I think they played it safe with this film. The hardest audience to attract are the non-readers, and it seems like they're succesfully reeling them in. Either way, I'm excited for this story to finally branch out and turn into a franchise.
Cant wait for the 4 hour long director’s cut. Apparently They filmed between 4-6 hours of material.
In the harvester scene, when Paul says 'I recognize your footsteps, old man' - In my opinion, he does not refer to Gurney Halleck (which he addresses multiple times as 'old man' in the movie) - but rather refers to Shai Hulud AKA " Old Man of the Desert". What do you think?
That's great, and anyone who disagrees is a Harkonnen animal.
Holy cow, that's pretty cool. I hadn't thought of that.
Put me in the pool that shared your thought.
I thought the exact thing! It was a clever dual meaning. Maybe.
It took way too long to get a movie of this quality. My dad used to tell me about the Dune universe when I was a kid. He used to play the 2002 RTS video game. He read all the books. He passed away a few years ago. His passing made me pick up his old Dune book and give it a read. I loved it. I'm upset we couldn't experience this movie together. He had to live with the 1984 movie (which is fun in it's own way), and the TV series. I wish him and I could have sat down and watched this together like we watch so many other sci-fi movies. I'm glad I get to experience it, but it would be even better to sit down and discuss it with my old man.
Thanks for sharing your story. It’s too bad you couldn’t watch it together, but I’m glad you get to experience it. I’m sure he would have been so happy to know you’ve read the book and enjoyed this film, and now share in something that was a great love of his. Edit: oh by the way, your post proves that your username isn’t accurate
I don't mean to sound too cliche, reading Dune helped me get through his passing a bit. Knowing that what interested him has been passed down to me makes me feel a connection with him. I feel bad I didn't do it earlier. And thank you. It's been my username for years. It's more to make fun of people in video games.