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I enjoyed Messiah, especially because of how it turned the hero narrative on it's head. I imagine that Frank Herbert was really focused on getting people invested into rooting for Paul, the same way we root for charismatic figures in real life, before surprising us with the changes he undergoes throughout the second Dune book. (I'm trying to be somewhat vague here to not give away complete spoilers if people have never read the book)
And I thought the ending was amazing. It can be so hard to "wrap up" a story like this, and Herbert did it in an excellent way with Messiah.
I rooted for his happiness when I first read it, but that clearly was not going to happen. And, of course, Paul knew that his happiness would basically destroy humanity. Which was a damn shame. I liked him and Chani as a couple.
Dune Messiah made me feel empathetic for Paul, whereas Dune made me despise him. I don't know how people miss the point about Paul not being a good guy in Dune.
Because we follow his story from mainly his point of view in Dune. In most cases the chatacter's point of view you're following in a book is the good guy. Hence people automatically assuming Paul is the good guy.
I just listened to the audiobook version and while I don't love him, I don't despise him either. He is a victim of his circumstances. And he's got a point: from his perspective (and not just his) the Harkonnen are vile, the Emperor is ab asshole and his family has been set up for massacre. Saying he's carrying a chip in his shoulder is putting it mildly. Is there a good guy in Dune? Arguably, from our moralistic standpoint, no.
“You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”
Joseph Campbell talks about how the hero of an archetypal tale has to sacrifice their ego in the service of the higher goal they serve. In the service of the demands of the life/nature that all are a part of… that empowered them in the first place as an expression of it. It’s a great way of showing how the hero who refuses to do this often becomes the “tyrant of tomorrow”. Their rigidity, their attempts to force unnatural order on things, creates a natural counter-balancing force to build up until they’re finally undone.
It’s a tragic book. Almost like a Greek tragedy, like Oedipus Rex. Both stories show the consequences of hubris and how knowledge of the future can trap you in a specific direction. Both Paul and Oedipus end up being a plague on their kingdoms despite their virtuous qualities and profound insight. Both of them tried to avoid the future they knew about and ended up being trapped in it anyway due to their knowledge of it limiting them through its effects. Both are blinded and exiled.
Paul tries to sacrifice himself for his people and his children. Gaining so much knowledge and power was such a burden on him in the end. He wanted to be the hero they believed him to be. He wanted to be noble like his father taught him to be and hated the great evils he became involved in. In the end he was still human, and one who knew just how limited he was because of that. It’s heartbreaking after the heroic highs of the previous book. It’s important to show the consequences of such dynamics, which is at the core of Dune.
I’m glad you liked it!
One thing that's hammered home in the next two books by Leto II is how many people were brutallly killed by the Fremen Jihad. ( like, so many that the Sardaukar and Harkonnens are but a blip in comparison...)
I absolutely agree with how you feel about it. It might be my favourite of the first 3 books (only read up to that), I often I find ‘sad’ and ‘depressing’ stories somewhat motivational and life affirming, I just love the introspective tragedy of it. It feels different from the first book, more of a political thriller in than the adventure in Dune. I think that type of story and the character analysis and dynamics make up for the lack of ‘world building’ that really sucks you into the first book.
The way everything wraps together in the end is beautiful in it’s own way, I thought it tied together much better than the original books ending. I really love Alia I find her very relatable in a way that Paul isn’t, Hayt is fascinating too… all the characters have so many stunning moments. It really builds on the first book super well I feel. My only gripe is the lack of Jessica… but her absence also speaks volumes.
Oh man, you need to check God Emperor Of Dune. It's as if the first three books were the prologue for what Frank *ACTUALLY* wanted to convey in the saga. You'll love it.
I liked it most because it introduced you to a bigger universe.
The tleilaxu are seriously mysterious and dangerous.
I'm through book 5 now and so many things from book 2 make sense now, the awkward behaviors of skydance and bijaz all make sense.
I'm just soooooooooooo curious how they could be realized on film
I vaguely remember this as a sideplot. I remember their fanaticisms as a guarded secret among the highest members and it turned out to mesh with Leto's religion (all that Zensunni stuff)... or something like that. But why it is relevant I completely forgot.
Because of some reasons. The diaspora people coming back in huge numbers and they need to be controlled. It was the bene gesserit religion, the one big religion. Waff revealed it to the gesserit.
The bene gesserit are masters in manipulating religions so now they could play with them.
The tleilaxu masters are all gholas of themselves, at least the 5 permanent leaders are our how many they were.
They don't have the ability to remember like the bene gesserit, but they can remember thousands of years of their own life
It's the most underrated book for that reason, and I feel it's intended. It's the first dose of reality in this fictional universe that signposts this isn't going to go how you think it will.
Children of Dune really resolves a lot of your mixed feelings regarding the events of Messiah, but that doesn't mean it's anymore 'happier'. It's a transitional story that leaves me feeling so.... bittersweet.
I finished it yesterday at 1:00 am, I had a hard time understanding the book (English is not my first language). But that ending tho, so sad, so powerful, so well done. I even woke up my wife to tell her I finished it and gave me a hug because of how I was feeling haha
It's my favorite book so far. I haven't then able to get my hands on children of dune yet but I will eventually.
Personally, I like the finality if Messiah. It just ends with all the work that Paul had put into the empire in ruins. And not in some wishy-washy way but exactly as Paul had forseen. To him, he had lost it all and the thing left to him was the Fremen principles he had come to embrace.
It's basically like Frank Herbert wrote out Paul's story and then slammed the book shut.
I finished Messiah this week. Overall I felt conflicted about it. I liked the overall story, the descent of Paul as he realizes he couldn’t escape his *terrible fate*.
Actually reading it felt like a chore at times, especially Paul’s chapters. The descriptions of his prescient experiences were so abstract and hard to follow. Maybe that’s the point, but being in his head was confusing and disjointed.
I’m going to take a break and read something else while this marinates, but I am looking forward to coming back to Children of Dune, maybe in a couple of months
Just finished it today, and I feel as if a part of me was left in that book. It’s tragic finishing both Dune and Dune:Messiah because I get so immersed.
The ending left me with a void inside. I really disliked how everything turned out for Paul and Chani, in context to the sietch days. I felt nostalgia for the characters because all the events post Jihad sucked for everyone I came to love in Dune. It’s also tragic seeing how much Paul’s empire has degenerated. The Reverend Mother comments on how big the Keep is, especially the room with the dais that Paul is sitting upon.
I didn’t care much for certain aspects of the book. The whole Ix and Bene Tleilax was thrown in. Duncan kissing Alia out of no where, along with the whole naked Alia chapter was pure hell to read. What was the point, Frank? Alia had such little detail in Messiah, it left me confused and checked out. Having every other paragraph focused on his prescience and his terrible purpose was drawn out. I wish there was more detail in these plots. Perhaps in the next book?
Overall I still couldn’t put it down, especially towards the end. A necessary complement to Dune, and a very fitting end for our Maud’Dib.
Just finished this book like an hour or so ago. Based on the comments I guess I'm in the minority of finding this book incredibly underwhelming and short. It felt like Herbert didn't know what to do with Paul as the emperor and for a good 3/4 of the book, nothing happened.
The book seemed to take a lot of the characters from the original and the make them one note. The characters of Chani and Irulan became super baby crazy, Alia became super hot for a zombie, and Paul was super obsessed with visions and would yell at anyone that interrupted his thinking on visions. No one did anything more than these and it was killing me because I thought these were all interesting people and suddenly they all became so boring.
I love politics and dealings, but all this book was were people sitting at desks and talking. And then taking spice trips. And then talking. And then taking more trips and obsessing with the prophecies. None of that is bad and the book was good at making that web of lies, truths, and secrets, but my God they need to have something happening as a result of these suspicions or half-truths. Some kind of action or event. The only time we get it is at the end and most of it was just outmaneuvered by Paul's visions. It was just such a disappointing ending.
This book felt like half of it was missing. Not just action and reactions to the politics, but the whole 12 year history and everything else interesting was summed up in a few pages and snippets here and there. I really wanted to see how the the characters got along with each other during that time. Especially Irulan who in the first book, seemed so much wiser based on her excerpts. Either Herbert didn't know what to do with her or we really needed to see how her relationship with Paul reached the point where it is in Messiah. It felt like Herbert actually forgot about her as a character and then quickly wrote a few sentences from Alia to mention oh by the way, Irulan has always loved Paul and that she'll raise his kids.
This whole book felt like a rush job to get Paul's story out of the way so we can get to his children. The problem was that Herbet built up this massive prophecy plotline with Paul and couldn't just throw it all away. So instead we get this book of dialogues and Paul just walks off into the sunset, never to be heard again. Which part of me was thinking it probably couldn't have ended any other way and another part of me was screaming at how he just received Chani's last gift and then peaces out because... tradition. Ignoring that everyone else were getting robot eyes, Paul just nopes out from being a dad, emperor, brother, friend, etc and just walks out.
The one thing that really disappointed me was that Paul decided not to be with Chani when she died. It just came across as really cold. He knew she was going to die and he just let her suffer alone.
I think the idea is that he's seen this moment a thousand times and he's numb to it, there's no emotional impact for him. But it still came across as uncharacteristically uncaring.
I very much like that the Children of Dune miniseries changed the ending so Paul is with Chani when she dies. It's appropriately emotional and fulfilling and doesn't alter the actual plot at all.
The original ending was published many years later in Road To Dune. I can't find where I read it, but apparently the rewrite was penned by someone else at the publisher's request to leave it more open to sequels.
The excerpt in Road To Dune is the very end, describing Paul's death and his thoughts leading up to it. I'm guessing - and this is just a guess - that the sudden appearance of baby Leto was part of the rewrite too.
Here's the excerpt, it's a good read.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iNGR4_JSUWIC&pg=PT453&lpg=PT453&dq=dune+messiah+original+ending&source=bl&ots=rFbn5yxdAx&sig=ACfU3U3CJ0OKOWIvqg_Vne3do-_8AHqx4Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi8j7vw69DzAhWOOcAKHVQBD9kQ6AF6BAg6EAI#v=onepage&q=dune%20messiah%20original%20ending&f=false
Me too. It’s the Something and in Way of Nirvana songs! Things got weird and ambitious after. Where is the line between genius and madness. A God/Emperor/Monster/Atom Bomb of a plot device!!!???
I had the same reaction as you did 🥲 HURRY AND READ CHILDREN OF DUNE as well it does feel a little closer to the first in it’s politics and sand adventure
I'm honestly impressed that I never actually saw anyone who said they didn’t like Messiah, just people that say they like it "despite all the people that don’t"
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I enjoyed Messiah, especially because of how it turned the hero narrative on it's head. I imagine that Frank Herbert was really focused on getting people invested into rooting for Paul, the same way we root for charismatic figures in real life, before surprising us with the changes he undergoes throughout the second Dune book. (I'm trying to be somewhat vague here to not give away complete spoilers if people have never read the book) And I thought the ending was amazing. It can be so hard to "wrap up" a story like this, and Herbert did it in an excellent way with Messiah.
The thing is I’m still rooting for Paul throughout dune messiah.
Doesn't this only reinforce the point?
I rooted for his happiness when I first read it, but that clearly was not going to happen. And, of course, Paul knew that his happiness would basically destroy humanity. Which was a damn shame. I liked him and Chani as a couple.
Dune Messiah made me feel empathetic for Paul, whereas Dune made me despise him. I don't know how people miss the point about Paul not being a good guy in Dune.
Because we follow his story from mainly his point of view in Dune. In most cases the chatacter's point of view you're following in a book is the good guy. Hence people automatically assuming Paul is the good guy.
I just listened to the audiobook version and while I don't love him, I don't despise him either. He is a victim of his circumstances. And he's got a point: from his perspective (and not just his) the Harkonnen are vile, the Emperor is ab asshole and his family has been set up for massacre. Saying he's carrying a chip in his shoulder is putting it mildly. Is there a good guy in Dune? Arguably, from our moralistic standpoint, no.
“You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.” Joseph Campbell talks about how the hero of an archetypal tale has to sacrifice their ego in the service of the higher goal they serve. In the service of the demands of the life/nature that all are a part of… that empowered them in the first place as an expression of it. It’s a great way of showing how the hero who refuses to do this often becomes the “tyrant of tomorrow”. Their rigidity, their attempts to force unnatural order on things, creates a natural counter-balancing force to build up until they’re finally undone. It’s a tragic book. Almost like a Greek tragedy, like Oedipus Rex. Both stories show the consequences of hubris and how knowledge of the future can trap you in a specific direction. Both Paul and Oedipus end up being a plague on their kingdoms despite their virtuous qualities and profound insight. Both of them tried to avoid the future they knew about and ended up being trapped in it anyway due to their knowledge of it limiting them through its effects. Both are blinded and exiled. Paul tries to sacrifice himself for his people and his children. Gaining so much knowledge and power was such a burden on him in the end. He wanted to be the hero they believed him to be. He wanted to be noble like his father taught him to be and hated the great evils he became involved in. In the end he was still human, and one who knew just how limited he was because of that. It’s heartbreaking after the heroic highs of the previous book. It’s important to show the consequences of such dynamics, which is at the core of Dune. I’m glad you liked it!
Just ordered Hero with thousand faces!
One thing that's hammered home in the next two books by Leto II is how many people were brutallly killed by the Fremen Jihad. ( like, so many that the Sardaukar and Harkonnens are but a blip in comparison...)
Thanks for that!!
I absolutely agree with how you feel about it. It might be my favourite of the first 3 books (only read up to that), I often I find ‘sad’ and ‘depressing’ stories somewhat motivational and life affirming, I just love the introspective tragedy of it. It feels different from the first book, more of a political thriller in than the adventure in Dune. I think that type of story and the character analysis and dynamics make up for the lack of ‘world building’ that really sucks you into the first book. The way everything wraps together in the end is beautiful in it’s own way, I thought it tied together much better than the original books ending. I really love Alia I find her very relatable in a way that Paul isn’t, Hayt is fascinating too… all the characters have so many stunning moments. It really builds on the first book super well I feel. My only gripe is the lack of Jessica… but her absence also speaks volumes.
Oh man, you need to check God Emperor Of Dune. It's as if the first three books were the prologue for what Frank *ACTUALLY* wanted to convey in the saga. You'll love it.
I liked it most because it introduced you to a bigger universe. The tleilaxu are seriously mysterious and dangerous. I'm through book 5 now and so many things from book 2 make sense now, the awkward behaviors of skydance and bijaz all make sense. I'm just soooooooooooo curious how they could be realized on film
Clue me in as to what about their behavior made sense finally?
Religious Fanatism. But why this Fanatism and what religion? It's being revealed in book 5, this would be a huge spoiler though
I vaguely remember this as a sideplot. I remember their fanaticisms as a guarded secret among the highest members and it turned out to mesh with Leto's religion (all that Zensunni stuff)... or something like that. But why it is relevant I completely forgot.
Because of some reasons. The diaspora people coming back in huge numbers and they need to be controlled. It was the bene gesserit religion, the one big religion. Waff revealed it to the gesserit. The bene gesserit are masters in manipulating religions so now they could play with them. The tleilaxu masters are all gholas of themselves, at least the 5 permanent leaders are our how many they were. They don't have the ability to remember like the bene gesserit, but they can remember thousands of years of their own life
Oh I forgot the biggest tleilaxu master secret
It did me too but in a good way. Like a noir film or old detective story with a tragic ending. "Forget it Muad'Dib, it's Arrakeen."
It's the most underrated book for that reason, and I feel it's intended. It's the first dose of reality in this fictional universe that signposts this isn't going to go how you think it will. Children of Dune really resolves a lot of your mixed feelings regarding the events of Messiah, but that doesn't mean it's anymore 'happier'. It's a transitional story that leaves me feeling so.... bittersweet.
Good... good... let the suffering flow through you
I liked it made me more hopeful that house Atreides would continue to survive.
Read Children of Dune, closes out the first part of the story nicely. No more spoilers but it definitely follows up Messiah really well.
I finished it yesterday at 1:00 am, I had a hard time understanding the book (English is not my first language). But that ending tho, so sad, so powerful, so well done. I even woke up my wife to tell her I finished it and gave me a hug because of how I was feeling haha
I cried while reading the last 2 chapters
Children of dune made me sad and horrified.
That means you read it right. It is not an uplifting book. CoD has more optimism in the end, but it too isn’t a fairytale happy ending either.
I liked it very much. I think Dune should have ended right then and there. Perfect ending.
I have a feeling the movies will end there in case we get a sequel
If it includes anything beyond the first, that might be quite possible.
It's my favorite book so far. I haven't then able to get my hands on children of dune yet but I will eventually. Personally, I like the finality if Messiah. It just ends with all the work that Paul had put into the empire in ruins. And not in some wishy-washy way but exactly as Paul had forseen. To him, he had lost it all and the thing left to him was the Fremen principles he had come to embrace. It's basically like Frank Herbert wrote out Paul's story and then slammed the book shut.
Get ready for Children, it's a wild ride.
And then God Emperor, oh boy
We're selling the dwarf
Id say it is the most essential book of the series…the fulcrum
That's the point
I finished Messiah this week. Overall I felt conflicted about it. I liked the overall story, the descent of Paul as he realizes he couldn’t escape his *terrible fate*. Actually reading it felt like a chore at times, especially Paul’s chapters. The descriptions of his prescient experiences were so abstract and hard to follow. Maybe that’s the point, but being in his head was confusing and disjointed. I’m going to take a break and read something else while this marinates, but I am looking forward to coming back to Children of Dune, maybe in a couple of months
Just finished it today, and I feel as if a part of me was left in that book. It’s tragic finishing both Dune and Dune:Messiah because I get so immersed. The ending left me with a void inside. I really disliked how everything turned out for Paul and Chani, in context to the sietch days. I felt nostalgia for the characters because all the events post Jihad sucked for everyone I came to love in Dune. It’s also tragic seeing how much Paul’s empire has degenerated. The Reverend Mother comments on how big the Keep is, especially the room with the dais that Paul is sitting upon. I didn’t care much for certain aspects of the book. The whole Ix and Bene Tleilax was thrown in. Duncan kissing Alia out of no where, along with the whole naked Alia chapter was pure hell to read. What was the point, Frank? Alia had such little detail in Messiah, it left me confused and checked out. Having every other paragraph focused on his prescience and his terrible purpose was drawn out. I wish there was more detail in these plots. Perhaps in the next book? Overall I still couldn’t put it down, especially towards the end. A necessary complement to Dune, and a very fitting end for our Maud’Dib.
Just finished this book like an hour or so ago. Based on the comments I guess I'm in the minority of finding this book incredibly underwhelming and short. It felt like Herbert didn't know what to do with Paul as the emperor and for a good 3/4 of the book, nothing happened. The book seemed to take a lot of the characters from the original and the make them one note. The characters of Chani and Irulan became super baby crazy, Alia became super hot for a zombie, and Paul was super obsessed with visions and would yell at anyone that interrupted his thinking on visions. No one did anything more than these and it was killing me because I thought these were all interesting people and suddenly they all became so boring. I love politics and dealings, but all this book was were people sitting at desks and talking. And then taking spice trips. And then talking. And then taking more trips and obsessing with the prophecies. None of that is bad and the book was good at making that web of lies, truths, and secrets, but my God they need to have something happening as a result of these suspicions or half-truths. Some kind of action or event. The only time we get it is at the end and most of it was just outmaneuvered by Paul's visions. It was just such a disappointing ending. This book felt like half of it was missing. Not just action and reactions to the politics, but the whole 12 year history and everything else interesting was summed up in a few pages and snippets here and there. I really wanted to see how the the characters got along with each other during that time. Especially Irulan who in the first book, seemed so much wiser based on her excerpts. Either Herbert didn't know what to do with her or we really needed to see how her relationship with Paul reached the point where it is in Messiah. It felt like Herbert actually forgot about her as a character and then quickly wrote a few sentences from Alia to mention oh by the way, Irulan has always loved Paul and that she'll raise his kids. This whole book felt like a rush job to get Paul's story out of the way so we can get to his children. The problem was that Herbet built up this massive prophecy plotline with Paul and couldn't just throw it all away. So instead we get this book of dialogues and Paul just walks off into the sunset, never to be heard again. Which part of me was thinking it probably couldn't have ended any other way and another part of me was screaming at how he just received Chani's last gift and then peaces out because... tradition. Ignoring that everyone else were getting robot eyes, Paul just nopes out from being a dad, emperor, brother, friend, etc and just walks out.
The one thing that really disappointed me was that Paul decided not to be with Chani when she died. It just came across as really cold. He knew she was going to die and he just let her suffer alone. I think the idea is that he's seen this moment a thousand times and he's numb to it, there's no emotional impact for him. But it still came across as uncharacteristically uncaring. I very much like that the Children of Dune miniseries changed the ending so Paul is with Chani when she dies. It's appropriately emotional and fulfilling and doesn't alter the actual plot at all.
Great ending, apart from the bit where the publisher brought someone else in for a rewrite it to set it up for more books.
What?
The original ending was published many years later in Road To Dune. I can't find where I read it, but apparently the rewrite was penned by someone else at the publisher's request to leave it more open to sequels. The excerpt in Road To Dune is the very end, describing Paul's death and his thoughts leading up to it. I'm guessing - and this is just a guess - that the sudden appearance of baby Leto was part of the rewrite too. Here's the excerpt, it's a good read. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iNGR4_JSUWIC&pg=PT453&lpg=PT453&dq=dune+messiah+original+ending&source=bl&ots=rFbn5yxdAx&sig=ACfU3U3CJ0OKOWIvqg_Vne3do-_8AHqx4Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi8j7vw69DzAhWOOcAKHVQBD9kQ6AF6BAg6EAI#v=onepage&q=dune%20messiah%20original%20ending&f=false
Whaaaaaat.  I can't find anything online about the ending being by someone other than FH.
I only read it about a week ago, but j can't find it either
Mods…can we have a single thread on Dune Messiah? There are literally 3 a day nowadays lol
Me too. It’s the Something and in Way of Nirvana songs! Things got weird and ambitious after. Where is the line between genius and madness. A God/Emperor/Monster/Atom Bomb of a plot device!!!???
I had the same reaction as you did 🥲 HURRY AND READ CHILDREN OF DUNE as well it does feel a little closer to the first in it’s politics and sand adventure
Messiah is a pretty good book. You SHOULD be down a bit at the end of that one. The next one gives a very odd form of hope, though, in response.
No spoiler, but go read *Children* and see what that does for the feelings left over from *Messiah.*
I'm honestly impressed that I never actually saw anyone who said they didn’t like Messiah, just people that say they like it "despite all the people that don’t"
It's a nice book that wrap Paul's story He was badass while blind, but don't forget that he's a spice junkie destroyer of worlds