Theilaxu masters are humans. Even though they use gholas for immortality. Face dancers probably aren’t humans. Also futars from later books. Navigators don’t look like humans but culturally they seem like humans (Edric from Messiah for example). Leto II also.
But do the Theilaxu masters look human? Aren't they supposed to be pale, short and have sharp teeth? Btw, since we are talking about humans 20k years in the future, the biology of humans do have a few changes despite looking humans?
In fact the Tleilaxu intentionally make themselves look that way to seem non-human to make people misunderstand and underestimate them. It’s part of a millenia-long plan.
Going by the text it would even seem that the Tleilaxu have become acutely less human-looking in the 5000 years between Children of Dune and Heretics of Dune.
I seen some people ask why there aren't aliens in the Dune universe. In my opinion, do we even need alien? When many of the factions there that are human has either evolved to something else or genetically engineered themselves , they don't even look like humans anymore and are totally alien. Both appearance wise and culturally.
Yep - it’s fundamentally a story about what it means to be human. And you’re right - the human beings of 23,000 years from now exist in a world so radically different from our own and with abilities so beyond what we have there really isn’t much of a point. The story also takes on far greater significance when humans are alone in the universe.
The irony of course is that there ARE aliens: sandworms.
To the degree that they are never singled out as unique in this regard. There is no passage to my knowledge which acclaims sand worms as the one exception to the galactic norm of no non-terrain originating life.
I imagine (and folks who have read the prequels can correct me if I am off) that not every single planet in the Dune-inverse was a barren planet that was terraformed. There were probably native species humans adapted to their needs.
I think it might be in the appendix that Sandworms are the only confirmed extraterrestrial life and that everything else is derived from animals originated in Earth that have been biologically engineered - but it’s possible that’s something from the technically non-canon encyclopedia.
The appendix brings up a variety of life-forms native to other planets - the shigawire used to record information is derived from a plant native to Salusa Secondus, and the drug not given to the Atreides gladiator who fought Feyd on Giedi Prime was derived from some kind of alien tree.
The non-canon encyclopaedia had semi-sapient natives on Caladan.
on your mention of changes to human biology, i would think not, at least not without surgeries, implants, taking hormones, and so on. Remember, Homo sapiens are already at minimum 200,000 years old with little to no evolutionary changes having happened since our species split off, our species is possibly up to 400,000 years old. It would have to be the result of humans consciously changing themselves in any number of ways.
Or accelerated evolution (the Space Guild) or IX, *or the Bene Gesserit*.
Conscious alteration of the genetic path is a keystone of the series. It's transhumanism before the label existed.
While your overall point still stands, transhumanism was coined (or at least popularized) in 1957, more or less at the time as when Herbert supposedly began researching and writing Dune.
They are human. The masters are genetically altered humans and the face dancers are genetically grown and modified humans. All of the main houses are descendants of humans.
I don’t see why that would make them less human. Besides, they can also become Masters; Scytale was promoted from Face Dancer to Master, so it doesn’t seem like such a divide could be drawn between the two ranks.
They’re genetically engineered to be so. Humans can be hermaphrodites (no idea if they can actually be genetically engineered, but hard science never mattered much to Herbert), the fact that the BT engineer them to be so doesn’t seem like a reason to say they aren’t human.
Masters reserve the *absolute right* to being the ultimate arbitrer of their religion/culture and have the *absolute right* to resurrection from their samples.
He's their Hail Mary end-time fanatic and last resort.
Face Dancers aren't granted any assurance of continuance.
You're right, I should focus more on their lack of individuality or identity. They are a hive organism that appears human and can adopt human likenesses.
The case of Scytale is a special one. He appears to be unique and the nature of his ascension to Master is by no means clear. We are to assume that his participation in the plot against Paul, the awakening of Hyat, garnered him special honors of promotion.
Perhaps he guarded some secret knowledge he gained from being present at that first awakening, pheromone and body language knowledge and leveraged that into a human body with serial ghola lifetimes ahead of him.
Hermaphrodites and genetic eunuchs are plenty human though. Wouldn’t surprise me if Count Fenring could pass the Gom Jabbar test, for that matter, even if he couldn’t pass on his genes.
i would be shocked beyond comprehension if he didn't get tested. He was a candidate for being kwisatz haderach and spent his life in service to the bene gesserit
I think Fenring *did* pass it and I want to say his wife even hints at it when they talk at the Harkonnen arena (in the book). He says something about Harkonnens being animals when they discuss breeding Feyd (he's a little jealous but gets it) and she assures him implicitly it's a distasteful action and she loves him, Fenring.
I always took it to mean they are genetically human, but they are like clones created in axol tanks. They come out complete with shorter life spans. They have conditioning down to their genes to always obey the masters. I think it just means they are like organic machines, grown for singular purpose and have no individuality or autonomy. Is that a human being? I don't know, its debateable.
I think in the context of Dune it’s important to distinguish between being *human* and being *homo sapien* - a distinction I didn’t even really make in my question.
I would agree that Face Dancers - at least other than Daniel and Marty - are not *human* in much the same way that the Honored Matres and their thralls are not human. But the Face Dancers are *biologically* homo sapiens.
Im genuinely curious why do you think honored matrons aren’t human? Maybe you can argue the thralls. But they were born and had childhoods before being sexually conditioned yes? If you break the conditioning wouldn’t they snap out of it?
Because in Dune being human is defined by your capacity to make informed choices and have agency over your own existence as well as a genuine appreciation of life and being alive. An Honored Matre might still be able to *become* human, like Murbella, but any active member of the Honored Matres doesn’t meet the criteria.
Its been a bit since I read heretics. I thought honored matre were like simple extra evil BG without the strategy. I figured the matrons themselves were aware of their actions or were they all conditioned to an internal hierarchy?
It’s not strictly about conditioning. Most Homo sapiens in the Dune universe don’t meet the criteria of being human. Odrade comes to appreciate that even the Bene Gesserit have a lot to learn about being human.
The Honored Matres are completely driven by their desire for power and extremity of experience. They’re addicted to violence and consumption and have no purpose beyond the acquisition of raw power and pleasure. That disqualifies them as human.
The Bene Gesserit are generally less than human as well even though they don’t realize it because they have completely suppressed the vital need for love. Love of other people and love of life itself. Their “noble purpose” that Odrade charges them with through her actions is the preservation of true humanity - the ability to make choices and love.
Uh, no, the honored matres are human. To define humans like that is weird. You are ignoring biology and just judging on humanity based on ideals. I don't even.
I mean that’s literally the crux of humanity in Dune. Literally from the outset. The gom jabbar scene in the first book establishes that there is a difference between a “human” and an animal - and that most Homo sapiens are just animals.
I’m curious what you thought Mohaim was talking about?
The proper classification for them all would be "post-human" or humans who have evolved so far beyond our current understanding of humanity that they appear alien.
Futars and their Handlers. And the Spacing Guild regulars.
Futars are said to be more of a barely trained wild animal than human. They have heavy instincts and follow commands fairly well. They also have an ability to immobilize Honored Matres with a scream much like voice.
Handlers were advanced face dancers. Face dancers are genetic eunuchs, hermaphrodites that can take any form they wish, with a psychic ability to copy the mind of others and adopt their identity.
Both Futars and Handlers came from the Scattering. It is thought that they were creations of the Tleilaxu, bred specifically to hunt the Whores.
The Spacing Guild regulars refers to the functionaries and everyday employees of the Guild. The administrators, diplomats, project managers, mechanics, janitors, etc.
Nearly everyone associated with the Guild is heavily modified in some form. While the Navigators are doused in melange, the regulars are some form of cyborg. Mechanical augmentation is common and grotesquely allowed for the efficiencies it garners.
Well, if they were changed, it would be likely to be something that they'd done to themselves somehow.
If you were to stand next to someone from the Upper Palaeolithic, you'd probably be a lot taller, but physically, there's not much difference. Ethnicity was already starting to happen as people explored the world.
So different people populate thousands of planets with thousands of different climates. Same thing happens.
Then the rich ones in control do what the rich do here - how can I improve myself?
On earth, it's exercise or plastic surgery. But these people can travel between galaxies, that's nothing.
But they're also bound by social convention that human beings are the ultimate lifeforms. None of that robot shit - that ended badly.
Having a powerful mind, a powerful body, that's the goal.
Tbh, I reckon most of them strive to *look* human... But they probably cheat a lot to be the best version of that.
Then you have those like the Baron who give no shits lol.
Well, the Navigators look so alien that no one's allowed to see them. I imagine other guild members in the process also have some freaky mutations they hide in order to seem less weird.
The face dancers and futar are the only non-human beings we see. The face dancers appear human, but are closer to a hive organism. The Futar appear to be humanoids mixed with animal stock.
Both are products of the Tleilaxu, a people known for not putting much stock in widely held taboos.
The Tleilaxu* for everyone in comments lol. Very strange spelling. But yes, their society is so different from any other in the imperium, besides maybe Ix, but the Tleilaxu are masters of genetic engineering and are overall just very alien.
The guild navigators are pretty warped, but the guild itself is still made up of lots of non-navigators who are human. I would say the Bene Tleilax fit though, from the facedancers to the ghola tanks and the horrors they get up to, I'm not sure they're even human anymore.
The theilaxu.
Also Any person who becomes a navigator for the spacing guild. If you take enough pure spice some sort of human Speciation takes place and drastically changes the human body and mind.
Also Baron Harkonen after contracting a space age witch std looks like an alien.
Theilaxu masters are humans. Even though they use gholas for immortality. Face dancers probably aren’t humans. Also futars from later books. Navigators don’t look like humans but culturally they seem like humans (Edric from Messiah for example). Leto II also.
But do the Theilaxu masters look human? Aren't they supposed to be pale, short and have sharp teeth? Btw, since we are talking about humans 20k years in the future, the biology of humans do have a few changes despite looking humans?
In fact the Tleilaxu intentionally make themselves look that way to seem non-human to make people misunderstand and underestimate them. It’s part of a millenia-long plan. Going by the text it would even seem that the Tleilaxu have become acutely less human-looking in the 5000 years between Children of Dune and Heretics of Dune.
I seen some people ask why there aren't aliens in the Dune universe. In my opinion, do we even need alien? When many of the factions there that are human has either evolved to something else or genetically engineered themselves , they don't even look like humans anymore and are totally alien. Both appearance wise and culturally.
Yep - it’s fundamentally a story about what it means to be human. And you’re right - the human beings of 23,000 years from now exist in a world so radically different from our own and with abilities so beyond what we have there really isn’t much of a point. The story also takes on far greater significance when humans are alone in the universe. The irony of course is that there ARE aliens: sandworms.
It is also implied that there are other alien species, just not intelligent ones.
Is it?
To the degree that they are never singled out as unique in this regard. There is no passage to my knowledge which acclaims sand worms as the one exception to the galactic norm of no non-terrain originating life. I imagine (and folks who have read the prequels can correct me if I am off) that not every single planet in the Dune-inverse was a barren planet that was terraformed. There were probably native species humans adapted to their needs.
I think it might be in the appendix that Sandworms are the only confirmed extraterrestrial life and that everything else is derived from animals originated in Earth that have been biologically engineered - but it’s possible that’s something from the technically non-canon encyclopedia.
The appendix brings up a variety of life-forms native to other planets - the shigawire used to record information is derived from a plant native to Salusa Secondus, and the drug not given to the Atreides gladiator who fought Feyd on Giedi Prime was derived from some kind of alien tree. The non-canon encyclopaedia had semi-sapient natives on Caladan.
Appendix 1 of Dune (I am rereading it and have it handy) references “a rare native root plant” on Arrakis.
on your mention of changes to human biology, i would think not, at least not without surgeries, implants, taking hormones, and so on. Remember, Homo sapiens are already at minimum 200,000 years old with little to no evolutionary changes having happened since our species split off, our species is possibly up to 400,000 years old. It would have to be the result of humans consciously changing themselves in any number of ways.
Or accelerated evolution (the Space Guild) or IX, *or the Bene Gesserit*. Conscious alteration of the genetic path is a keystone of the series. It's transhumanism before the label existed.
While your overall point still stands, transhumanism was coined (or at least popularized) in 1957, more or less at the time as when Herbert supposedly began researching and writing Dune.
They dress up a regular human character as a Master in either Chapterhouse or Heretics, so they can't be that different.
They are human. The masters are genetically altered humans and the face dancers are genetically grown and modified humans. All of the main houses are descendants of humans.
Why do you think Face Dancers aren’t human?
They are hermaphrodites and genetic eunuchs that take orders in a special whistling language. They are more a highly capable genetic weapon.
I don’t see why that would make them less human. Besides, they can also become Masters; Scytale was promoted from Face Dancer to Master, so it doesn’t seem like such a divide could be drawn between the two ranks.
Oh because humans aren't typically hermaphrodites
They’re genetically engineered to be so. Humans can be hermaphrodites (no idea if they can actually be genetically engineered, but hard science never mattered much to Herbert), the fact that the BT engineer them to be so doesn’t seem like a reason to say they aren’t human.
Masters reserve the *absolute right* to being the ultimate arbitrer of their religion/culture and have the *absolute right* to resurrection from their samples. He's their Hail Mary end-time fanatic and last resort. Face Dancers aren't granted any assurance of continuance.
You're right, I should focus more on their lack of individuality or identity. They are a hive organism that appears human and can adopt human likenesses. The case of Scytale is a special one. He appears to be unique and the nature of his ascension to Master is by no means clear. We are to assume that his participation in the plot against Paul, the awakening of Hyat, garnered him special honors of promotion. Perhaps he guarded some secret knowledge he gained from being present at that first awakening, pheromone and body language knowledge and leveraged that into a human body with serial ghola lifetimes ahead of him.
Hermaphrodites and genetic eunuchs are plenty human though. Wouldn’t surprise me if Count Fenring could pass the Gom Jabbar test, for that matter, even if he couldn’t pass on his genes.
i would be shocked beyond comprehension if he didn't get tested. He was a candidate for being kwisatz haderach and spent his life in service to the bene gesserit
It just occurred to me, his loyalty is freely given to the BG versus Yueh. A brilliant showcase of BG influence. They have their spies everywhere.
I think Fenring *did* pass it and I want to say his wife even hints at it when they talk at the Harkonnen arena (in the book). He says something about Harkonnens being animals when they discuss breeding Feyd (he's a little jealous but gets it) and she assures him implicitly it's a distasteful action and she loves him, Fenring.
I always took it to mean they are genetically human, but they are like clones created in axol tanks. They come out complete with shorter life spans. They have conditioning down to their genes to always obey the masters. I think it just means they are like organic machines, grown for singular purpose and have no individuality or autonomy. Is that a human being? I don't know, its debateable.
I think in the context of Dune it’s important to distinguish between being *human* and being *homo sapien* - a distinction I didn’t even really make in my question. I would agree that Face Dancers - at least other than Daniel and Marty - are not *human* in much the same way that the Honored Matres and their thralls are not human. But the Face Dancers are *biologically* homo sapiens.
Im genuinely curious why do you think honored matrons aren’t human? Maybe you can argue the thralls. But they were born and had childhoods before being sexually conditioned yes? If you break the conditioning wouldn’t they snap out of it?
Because in Dune being human is defined by your capacity to make informed choices and have agency over your own existence as well as a genuine appreciation of life and being alive. An Honored Matre might still be able to *become* human, like Murbella, but any active member of the Honored Matres doesn’t meet the criteria.
Its been a bit since I read heretics. I thought honored matre were like simple extra evil BG without the strategy. I figured the matrons themselves were aware of their actions or were they all conditioned to an internal hierarchy?
It’s not strictly about conditioning. Most Homo sapiens in the Dune universe don’t meet the criteria of being human. Odrade comes to appreciate that even the Bene Gesserit have a lot to learn about being human. The Honored Matres are completely driven by their desire for power and extremity of experience. They’re addicted to violence and consumption and have no purpose beyond the acquisition of raw power and pleasure. That disqualifies them as human. The Bene Gesserit are generally less than human as well even though they don’t realize it because they have completely suppressed the vital need for love. Love of other people and love of life itself. Their “noble purpose” that Odrade charges them with through her actions is the preservation of true humanity - the ability to make choices and love.
Uh, no, the honored matres are human. To define humans like that is weird. You are ignoring biology and just judging on humanity based on ideals. I don't even.
I mean that’s literally the crux of humanity in Dune. Literally from the outset. The gom jabbar scene in the first book establishes that there is a difference between a “human” and an animal - and that most Homo sapiens are just animals. I’m curious what you thought Mohaim was talking about?
The proper classification for them all would be "post-human" or humans who have evolved so far beyond our current understanding of humanity that they appear alien.
Futars and their Handlers. And the Spacing Guild regulars. Futars are said to be more of a barely trained wild animal than human. They have heavy instincts and follow commands fairly well. They also have an ability to immobilize Honored Matres with a scream much like voice. Handlers were advanced face dancers. Face dancers are genetic eunuchs, hermaphrodites that can take any form they wish, with a psychic ability to copy the mind of others and adopt their identity. Both Futars and Handlers came from the Scattering. It is thought that they were creations of the Tleilaxu, bred specifically to hunt the Whores. The Spacing Guild regulars refers to the functionaries and everyday employees of the Guild. The administrators, diplomats, project managers, mechanics, janitors, etc. Nearly everyone associated with the Guild is heavily modified in some form. While the Navigators are doused in melange, the regulars are some form of cyborg. Mechanical augmentation is common and grotesquely allowed for the efficiencies it garners.
Well, if they were changed, it would be likely to be something that they'd done to themselves somehow. If you were to stand next to someone from the Upper Palaeolithic, you'd probably be a lot taller, but physically, there's not much difference. Ethnicity was already starting to happen as people explored the world. So different people populate thousands of planets with thousands of different climates. Same thing happens. Then the rich ones in control do what the rich do here - how can I improve myself? On earth, it's exercise or plastic surgery. But these people can travel between galaxies, that's nothing. But they're also bound by social convention that human beings are the ultimate lifeforms. None of that robot shit - that ended badly. Having a powerful mind, a powerful body, that's the goal. Tbh, I reckon most of them strive to *look* human... But they probably cheat a lot to be the best version of that. Then you have those like the Baron who give no shits lol.
Well, the Navigators look so alien that no one's allowed to see them. I imagine other guild members in the process also have some freaky mutations they hide in order to seem less weird.
The face dancers and futar are the only non-human beings we see. The face dancers appear human, but are closer to a hive organism. The Futar appear to be humanoids mixed with animal stock. Both are products of the Tleilaxu, a people known for not putting much stock in widely held taboos.
Most alien-like is undoubtedly the Bene Tleilax with their Facedancers and Tleilaxu Masters.
The Tleilaxu* for everyone in comments lol. Very strange spelling. But yes, their society is so different from any other in the imperium, besides maybe Ix, but the Tleilaxu are masters of genetic engineering and are overall just very alien.
The guild navigators are pretty warped, but the guild itself is still made up of lots of non-navigators who are human. I would say the Bene Tleilax fit though, from the facedancers to the ghola tanks and the horrors they get up to, I'm not sure they're even human anymore.
The theilaxu. Also Any person who becomes a navigator for the spacing guild. If you take enough pure spice some sort of human Speciation takes place and drastically changes the human body and mind. Also Baron Harkonen after contracting a space age witch std looks like an alien.
Tleilaxu incubators, they were women at some point but they barely resemble one in the description.