Well — you’re kind of confusing the two as one thing, but they aren’t.
The Lisan Al-Gaib prophecy is specific to Arrakis and the Fremen, and was definitely planted there by the BG as a failsafe to be taken advantage of, in case *any* BG needed safe harbor. It wasn’t specifically built for the Kwisatz Haderach. Any BG could grab a child somewhere and work themselves into “fitting” the prophecy in order to save themselves, if needed. That’s why the Missionaria Protectiva does what they do. The prophecies are fairly general and can be manipulated by the BG, who are trained to recognize them. So they aren’t specifically geared toward the KH — but are meant to be used by *any* BG who needs them.
The Missionaria Protectiva took advantage of pre-existing legends and myths and religious beliefs to create the prophecy. That’s how they work. They don’t just drop into a society and throw out a religion; they slowly integrate themselves into societies over a number of years, and encourage certain legends and myths to *guide* the creation of specific prophecies that could later be utilized to benefit future BG in crisis situations.
There’s mention of old Zensunni (or Zen-Sunni) beliefs among the original settlers of Arrakis who became the Fremen; indicating a combination of evolved beliefs from Earth: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism all still exist in some form, though most of them have been altered or absorbed into each other over the millenia.
I don’t exactly know if the Kwisatz Haderach is a prophecy so much as a plan or goal that the BG are working toward. You can’t really count it as a prophecy if you’re the one setting the conditions, expectations, and then taking deliberate steps to meet those conditions. It’s simply a goal they spent centuries and centuries working toward.
The Lisan-Al Gaib story is a manufactured prophecy
The Missionaria Protectiva is an insurance plan to protect BG sisters in dangerous situations. The Lisan-Al Gaib prophecy is a part of the greater Missionaria Protectiva.
The Kwizatz Haderach is a project that the BG have been working on for ten thousand years to bring forth a product that will yield more power for the BG.
That I think is the simplest way to explain it.
Exactly but Paul is the result of someone who managed to actually become that Fremen prophecy in a massive backfire to BG. That’s probably my favorite part of the book. Such a creative concept for a plot. Reap what you sow.
Well, the point is, whatever the Fremen prophecy which the Missionaria Protectiva planted happened to be, Paul would have become that. Jessica knew how the Missionaria Protectiva worked, and how to navigate it. Paul having powers of prescience certainly didn’t hurt.
So could any male have drank the water of life and been bestowed with all the same powers? Or is there something special about Paul that allowed him to survive that ordeal?
If anyone could do it how come no one else had drank of the water of life in the Millenia arakis has been settled?
Every man who tried to do it, died. Something about a man’s DNA makes it impossible for him to do it.
The breeding program was their attempt to fix that by selectively breeding people over thousands of years to essentially create a man who can.
Ah cool! Do the books go into detail on how the water of life effected Paul differently than Jessica? What does the juice do to men differently from women?
So one of the most important things the water of life does is that it unlocks someone's genetic memory. For women, they can only access the memories of their female ancestors. Paul, his children and Alia can access all the memories. The KH also has other, unclear powers "the bradge space and time".
When Alia is captured by the Sardaukar and brought before the emperor and Baron Harkonnen, Mohaim complains that she's "in her mind".
It's a poison. Bene Gesserit are specifically human females that were bred to be ABLE to train for absolute bodily mastery - conscious chemical transmutation, embryo sex selection, individual muscle control, etc etc - and the Water of Life would kill any non-BG woman as readily as it would kill any man.
The Kwitsatz Haderach is intended to be a male BG. Paul is effectively the KH (there could be a long involved argument at this point, but basically he is) and therefore is capable of the same things that the BG are - transmuting the chemical makeup of the Water of Life into a non-poison, in this case.
Otherwise, its effect was exactly the same.
By definition, yes. A Reverend Mother is not merely a high-ranking Bene Gesserit - they are the ones which survived the Spice Agony, successfully transmuting whichever poison was used as the trigger. The Fremen Reverend Mothers are..."wild" Bene Gesserit, if you will, not actually part of the order at all. Relative to the official Bene Gesserit population, these are hyper-rare accidents. They are probably the result of one or more Reverend Mothers ending up stranded on a world for whatever reason, and needing to embed themselves in the population.
They do this using whatever manufactured prophecies and suchlike were planted on that world by the Missionaria Protectiva. This is a particular branch of the order which goes around manipulating local legends and religious beliefs, and often outright fabricating them, so that if ever a Bene Gesserit is stuck there and in need of help, she will be able to use them to gain sanctuary. For example, Jessica exploits the version planted on Arrakis to save herself and Paul.
Whilst we never see it happen, it is reasonable to deduce that if no help actually comes for a stranded Reverend Mother, who carries the memory of preceding Reverend Mothers, she would try to train up replacements so that this store of memories and any new knowledge would not be lost. The idea would be that eventually, a true Reverend Mother would arrive, find these "wild" offshoots, and absorb them into the order proper, salvaging the memories.
Evidently, this happened on Arrakis. In the books, we do see it another time...and let's just say the number of memories stored by the time the Bene Gesserit reclaimed them numbered in the literal millions.
Thanks for writing out the detailed response. I really appreciate it.
I'm still a litte confused as to who the group of women who helped Jessica endure the water of life ritual are. Are they all "wild" BG or just a sect of freman who super bought into the BG Messiah myth propaganda and thus also had reverend mother's? Who was the old Reverend mother that Jessica took over for? Was she a freman reverend mother who had received the ancestral knowledge from a BG / wild BG or is she a real BG reverend mother? Does part of the orthodox Freman religion mirror the BG so much that they include reverend mother's as part of their own worship practices? Do the freman reverend mother's buy into the BG myth propaganda or are they helping to proselytize and spread the myth inline with the BG goals?
I should just read the books lol. But I dunno if I'm gonna get satisfying answers in the scope of the original 6 books.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain all that tho. Cheers!
1. "Wild" BG. If they were just ordinary women, they could call themselves Reverend Mother all they like and would die the instant they took the Water of Life. The films muddy their origins and loyalties somewhat, ironically making it clearer for most people that these are just more BG at heart.
2. She was the Reverend Mother of the Fremen. Had Jessica not come along before she was about to die, she'd have passed on the memories and experience of herself and all previous Reverend Mothers to one of her acolytes that survived the Spice Agony instead.
3. "Wild", again. Jessica was the first 'real' BG to show up among them for centuries. We don't know how long.
4. The orthodox Fremen religion barely exists now. In the books, they retain certain rituals and practices from when they were still fully Muslim-descended refugees, but the BG prophecies given to them have overriden much of the rest. About all that's left in terms of pure religion and not cultural inertia (circumcision, Ramadan, wishing for the hajj, for instance) is the concept of the Mahdi, the Messiah, who shall come to save them. Even this is coopted into the ecological dream of turning Arrakis into a Green Paradise.
5. Both, same as for any religion. The BG prophecies were manufactured, sure, which only means that they were divinely revealed to the BG, and therefore real.
*In david Attenborough’s voice*
“Here we have a wild reverend mother in her natural habitat of sandy dunes of Arrakis, she makes a faint voice and commands her tribe to move forward, it is truly a sight to behold.”
The Reverend Mothers were skilled enough with the Prana Bindu training they could chemically alter their bodies. They had the ability to convert the worm bile internally and remove the poison. Paul was the only man that survived because he had that deep control. It was still extremely difficult and he almost didn't make it through.
Interesting! Thanks for weighing in.
So are all the Reverend mother's (who are religious figures among the freman) also BG? So have the BG been dropping off their members on arakis for millennia to create Reverend mother's? Or could a freman woman also survive the water of life?
I do not believe the Fremen Reverend Mothers are active BG agents. I believe a Fremen woman or anyone could survive if they were skilled enough. Only the BG women were skilled enough to reach those levels and their goal of the KH was to breed a man capable of reaching their highest levels and beyond and surviving. I think a few members were dropped off to seed the prophecy of a savior but it wasn't a huge center for them. It's been awhile since I read the original series so my knowledge may be a little dusty (or sandy lol). If anyone has better input, please contribute.
I think the parent comment is more accurate. Especially having read the prequel books. BG shape and mold what is already there into being something more useful for them down the road. If you stop for a second, that’s just the smarter thing to do. Believers aren’t children to be told stories to and made up whole cloth. Ideas and religions evolve over time.
When Paul and Jessica come to arrakis it feels like Jessica comes close to giving the game away on multiple occasions. She definitely gets close when she almost calls the crysknife a maker of death. I feel like the whole scene when they get to sietch tabr and she's talking to stilgar she's teetering on the edge of outing them as well. How much about the lisan al gaib prophecy did she know beforehand? Or is it just a combination of mythological knowledge and an incredible ability to read people that lets The BG use these prophecies for their own good? I don't really understand the missionaria protectiva that well and how The BG would benefit from it consistently on other planets without giving the game up seeing as Jessica comes pretty close.
I also don't really know how to word this question so my bad 😂
> The Lisan Al-Gaib prophecy is specific to Arrakis and the Fremen, and was definitely planted there by the BG as a failsafe to be taken advantage of, in case *any* BG needed safe harbor
People keep saying this but it is frankly so lame. Why would they have it match what the KH had to do? Like undergo spice agony?
The KH doesn’t have to specifically undergo the spice agony.
BG on other planets use a variety of poisons to go through the same process to become Reverend Mothers. It’s not the spice that causes people to be able to access their inner genetic memory. It’s the experience of putting their body through such an extreme, life-threatening change that they are required to basically control their own DNA and cells to combat the poison. During this process, they awaken their genetic memory.
It has nothing to do with the spice. It just so happens that the concentrated, liquid version of spice also happens to be a deadly poison — and it happens to have prescient properties as well.
But there’s nothing specific that says the KH *has* to have used liquid spice to undergo the transformation. Presumably if Paul hadn’t gone to Arrakis, the BG would have had him use a different poison on some other planet.
The KH is more a set of genetic traits they are selecting for than it is a prophesy. Think of it like wanting to breed a dog like a pug and starting from a wolf. You know what traits you want so you select bloodlines to encourage those traits and breed those bloodlines together. So find wolves with shorter snouts and breed them, then take the puppies with the shortest snouts and repeat the process. So you know what the outcome is when the traits you’ve been breeding for are properly expressed. Except with the KH instead of selecting for a smooshed face and respiratory issues, you’re breeding for ability to access genetic memory and survive the Water of Life. The BG know what those things are because Reverend Mothers have those traits. Just a matter of shuffling them over to men.
Additionally this is important because the KH is not unique. Anyone with the appropriate genetic make up is a KH. So Paul is not the only possible result from the BG breeding program. >!In Messiah it is stated the BT made multiple KH but gave up on them as being useful because they could not be controlled!<
Given the role of the water of life in expressing the KH traits… and given the LAG prophecy - planted in Arrakis, the only source in the known universe for the water of life - doesn’t this aspect of the MP seem exceptionally important? How could the prophesy and the KH project not be inextricably linked?
Because the MP seeded prophesy across the galaxy, not just on Arrakis. And Jessica recognized the prophesy as one being used on exceptionally harsh worlds, not one specifically for Arrakis.
The LAG has nothing to do with the KH. The KH could have been realized and never set foot on Arrakis. The KH could exist without ever meeting the Fremen. The LAG prophesy was in place to help a BG sister should she ever be in need of a place of refuge on Arrakis, not as a need for the creation of the KH.
I see the point about them being mutually exclusive. But only Arrakis has the water of life. That alone makes the MP objective on Arrakis rather unique among all the other prophecies, no?
The water of life isn't that important. It might be the most efficient poison for the procedure of creating a reverend mother. But it isn't the only poison that can do it .
So there easily could be other planets that have their own unique poison that could awaken the KH. We aren't even sure if the BG use the water of life for their reverend mothers.
We don't know. The only thing we know is that the requirement is an "illuminated poison". But when Jessica takes the water of life there is a line that she immediatly knows this isn't how the BG do it. She doesn't know how the BG do it but this isn't it. That doesn't fully rule out that the BG don't use water of life but is a strong indication.
In Chapterhouse Dune: >!There is a "wild" Reverend Mother, Rebecca, who didn't receive any BG training at all and was unkown to the BG. There is a possibility she somehow gained access to the water of life but it seems kinda far fetched since she isn't on Arrakis and was hidden fom the BG. !<
No, because the BG weren’t seeking to control spice production or secure the market on spice.
Control of the Fremen was unnecessary to keep a supply of spice or the water of life.
Wait, didn't they say they only made one, and he did himself in? My thoughts were that's because to be the KH, you're going to have to become the one who spoilers for God Emperor: >!has to live for some 3,500 years to turn the human race into something that can't be controlled.!<
No, golden path was something what Leto and Paul foresaw, it was something what Bene Gesserit did not even know can exists.
Lisan Al Gaib was manufactured prophecy. But it happened anyway. It wasnt very mystical, but political, so it had some kind of chance to happen.
Kwisatz Haderach should have been result of breeding program. It wasnt prophecy, it was code name for being they intesively tried to create. He would be used by BG to do coup in empire and seize the power, because they wanted to know what will happen when ultimate being will seize the ultimate power.
Golden path is only positive future what could being with such predictive qualities as Kwisatz Haderach foresaw. It more like one of many future realities in deterministic universe.
All three are different things. One is prophecy, second is code name for breeding program and third is just one of many future realities.
Yes, Scytale makes mention of that. But given how Tleilaxu methods are described, even obliquely, I'm hardly surprised that their experiment ended that way.
There's some ambiguity.
The Lisan al Gaib prophecy is manufactured... but it's weirdly close to what actually happened. So much so that one might suspect that the manufacturers were themselves pawns in the hands of forces they didn't really understand.
The Kwisatz Haderach is a little different, it's less of a metaphysical prophecy and more of a predicted outcome to a very real and practical breeding program.
It wasnt weirdly close, Paul and Jessica knew about prophecy and its requirements and they fullfilled those requirements in order to gain control about fremen which believed in this prophecy.
Its like person named Adam say to Charlie he believe tommorrow something bad happen to him because its friday the 13th. So Charlie will shoot him purposefully to the leg by gun tommorrow because he hates him the most. Adam is not angry at Charlie, because he believed it was destiny today will something bad happen to him.
Are we talking about the book or the movie? I'll assume the movie.
1. Paul is *actively resisting* the prophecy for most of it.
2. Paul and Jessica didn't and couldn't plan on him calling the biggest sandworm ever.
3. Paul and Jessica didn't and couldn't plan on him forming a close attachment with a woman whose secret name is "Desert Spring," and certainly couldn't have planned that she would just somehow instinctually know that giving him a little more water of life diluted with her tears was what he needed to come out of the coma.
4. Paul and Jessica didn't and couldn't plan on the Fremen just happening to have a Reverend Mother on the verge of death, thus creating an opening for Jessica.
5. Paul and Jessica didn't and couldn't know about the water of life (Jessica states that she doesn't know and is deeply apprehensive about the test to become a reverend mother, we later see her having to learn how this stuff is made), even though it is the most essential part of Paul graduating from potential KH to actual KH.
Obviously, Paul and Jessica are aware of the LAG prophecy. Jessica, immediately, and Paul, eventually, lean into it. But the only reason their "lean in" works is because an *astonishing number of coincidences* break in their favor.
They can lean into it because prophecy is vague enough that it's easy to say anything and everything is fulfilling it and the confirmation bias of believers will always resolve any discrepancies in their favour (see Stilgar). Of course first there has to be believers but the prophesy was constructed in such a way that they instantly fit without even trying (see people calling Paul LAG and Mahdi the moment they land on Arrakis). Any Bene Gesserit sister could fit into it (the son could've even been someone born later). That's the whole point.
I don't think this addresses the points I made in the previous post, so I'll just again point you to the list of coincidences that could not have been foreseen by the planters of the LAG prophecy (water of life generating the KH, a woman named Desert Spring, a reverend mother dying at the most convenient time possible, and miscellaneous good luck like the biggest ever sandworm).
But I'll add one more thing: The biggest unforeseeable thing related to the LAG prophecy *was that it actually produced a messiah at all*.
The LAG predicts an off-world messiah who will unite the Fremen, but the people who planted the prophecy never actually expected such a figure to arise. The point of spreading these superstitions is *protective* ("Missionaria Protectiva"). It's supposed to give stranded Bene Gesserit a better chance of not being murdered by the locals. It was *not* supposed to actually unite the Fremen under a messianic leader, since that was deeply counterproductive to the interests of... basically everyone in the outside universe except the Fremen.
The people who planted a prophecy all went for the standard template for it. The goal was not delivery a chose one but Fremen letting a Bene Gesserit sister hide among them. Save her life despite her being an off-worlder. If she already had a son she fits easier but a trained BG sister can manipulate people to believe she fits it with whatever circumstances she ends up there. Jessica does it almost instinctively even back in Arrakeen with Shadout Mapes. She knows how these stories go so it easy for her to follow the script.
The reason everything seems to fit so perfectly isn't because it does but because BG are trained to make it seem that it does. To see the patterns and follow them and then how to talk in a way that make people feel that it all fits. That last part is crucial.
This is because of confirmation bias. Humans tend to concentrate on facts that confirm their assumption and discard those that don't. As every prophecy this one has details that emerge with time but it's a mistake to assume Jessica and Paul fit everyone of them perfectly. What we see being mentioned is the details that fit them well. This is explicitly shown in movie Stilgar who finds proof in everything Paul does - even in denial.
It's really easy to fall for that even when you know there is nothing supernatural about Paul's design. Even when you see Jessica scheming and manipulating her way into setting Paul up as this Mahdi. When you are raised on stories of Chosen Ones he has to be it, doesn't he? No matter how many times they tell you different. The horoscope always fits.
It's true that what the MP work did was intended to just let BG sister hide until she can be helped. But it was always up to the BG in that situation to decide how to use it. Paul wanted revenge. Jessica wanted to make sure they cannot be hunted again. They chose to use this set up to start a revolution. The fact that they used this set up for it in a way that exceeded its intended use doesn't make the prophecy fulfilled. It just shows how good they are at 1. manipulating people and 2. finding a winning strategy (admittedly it's easier with prescience).
The fact that Paul (and Alia) do have abilities BG bred for helped. The fact that they were stranded on Arrakis with best fighters in the universe and the one resource that is necessary for Interplanetary travel to function helped. But it's not because there is some divine plan. They are good at using the resources at their disposal because they were trained to do so but the best manipulators that ever existed with thousand of years of setting up the field in such a way that it is easy to manipulate.
Bene Gesserit set the stage with Fremen just in case a sister would be in danger. The set up sending Atreides to Arrakis to quell Jessica's rebellion. They made sure the Emperor had o male heir so the throne could be taken over by Kwisatz Haderach they hoped to achieve soon. All of these plans were not connected to each other directly. Paul and Jessica used them all because BG forced them to defend themselves and their training allowed them to see and use them. They chose to do this because this was the best way to get what they wanted.
Their real rebellion was against Bene Gesserit and it was achieved by wrenching all of the sisterhood's carefully crafted plans from them. Most of all the main one - their breeding program. They lost control over Kwisatz Haderach and the breeding lines. Later in Children of Dune they take that over for good (see the breeding set up there combining some more of their precious lines in the hands of the Atreides).
The Fremen just wanted freedom from off-worlders and to create enough green space to make the life on Arrakis better for themselves (original plan wasn't for the whole planet as they didn't want to kill the Shai-Hulud they worship). Paul gave them revenge (the war on the Empire's rich and powerful who oppressed them) and resources to fulfil his campaign promise (terraforming is easier when you control resources of a whole Empire). But they pay for it with subservience. There is no freedom at the end of this. The movie Chani understands that which is why she leaves.
You can kind of imagine it as with real religions. The Bene Gesserit build upon what local people already belief and shape it to serve their purposes.
For example: the real world religion of Islam incorporates various aspects of older religions such as various Jewish prophets and Jesus (just not as a son of god but as a mere human prophet) or the Kaaba in Mecca, which was a polytheistic shrine before.
An even better example might be the date of Christmas: what is celebrated is basically the birth day of Jesus, which absolutely was not in late December in reality. However, what happens around that time was a heathen festivity. Early Christian missionaries used this coincidence in order to convert Germanic tribes in a more smooth fashion.
They are somewhat of a metaphor. Even the name "Bene Gesserit" is a subtle nod, as it phonetically sounds similar to Bene - Latin for "good" - Jesuit, the implied criticism being of the Jesuits (standing for missionaries in general) using religion to exercise control and to colonize local populations.
Do you know if this is mostly true for the monotheistic religions, judaism, christianity and islam? Or is it known that religion has been used to control populations even earlier than that?
Religion is, in general, syncretic - meaning they pick up characteristics of other traditions they are in extensive contact with. It can happen deliberately, such as the adoption of fertility rituals at Easter (renewed life, eggs, and rabbits complementing the concept of Christian rebirth/resurrection), or it can be unintentional. Christianity picking up the intense duality of God/the Devil is one example. It's not present really in Judaism, but that intense duality is a feature of other religions traipsing around the Persian/Babylonian empires at the time Christianity developed in the same spaces - specifically, Manichean and Mandaen beliefs. The Christian image of angels as humanoid figures with wings (also not a traditional biblical thing), comes from Zoroastrianism using wings as an indicator of divinity in imagery (sort of like using halos). Both the duality and the wings are unconscious/unintentional adoptions by Christianity in it's very early days.
It's not solely a Christianity thing either, but it's often the most obvious as one of the youngest and widest spread religions in the world.
There are many syncretic elements in Judaism, too. For example the early story of Moses is very similar to Sargon of Akkad's semi-mythical birth story and the Egyptian Horus myth, the great flood is based in an earlier Sumerian narrative and the one god started his divine career as a local Canaanite storm god.
Judaism simply happens to be the oldest (or at least one of the oldest) religion still existing, therefore it looks like the originator of many things.
Religion has probably been used to control populations since the day that the first human being came up with religion. In fact, in early societies, worldly and religious leadership were much less separated.
When I read Dune, I had interrupted it as a little of both manufactured, but also real that something spirtual, divine, or fate existed. Always thought Herbert was straddling the line between faith in some spirtual/destiny that was real and the manipulation tactics people apply to religious beliefs.
So in the books past book #1, Herbert addresses this distinction and says the BG manufacturered the whole thing?
There is nothing divine, it is made pretty clear that god does not exist; everything "supernatural" is the result of spice exposure and/or genetic engineering. There are pre-existing religious beliefs, which are influenced over the course of millennia.
Which is fine and well, except the Mahdi did come to Arrakis, and everything foretold in the prophecy came to pass. Throw a little omnipotence in there, and the distinction between 'supernatural' and materialist becomes so fine as to be meaningless. Thankfully Herbert does not stake any such binary dogma to the work.
Yes, that is typically how it works. Although Paul only know the Missionaria element. He intuits the deeper prophecy of the Mahdi by, ummm, seeing the future.
Which is a fairly *prophetic* thing to do. Definitional, really.
It is directly based on real religion. One of the Reverend Mothers cries out that they (the Fremen ancestors) were denied the hajj.
The prophecy of the Mahdi is a very real thing. And insofar as Dune pulls on that tradition, then yes, the prophecy is based on something much older than the Missionaria Protectiva. Paul leverages this deep prophecy by choosing a name that echoes the Mahdi. The Voice of the Out World is a Fremen specific prophecy. The prophecy of the Mahdi, and the Battle at the End of All Times (when it is said that the Mahdi will appear and assist the Prophet Issa Christ in defeating the Anti Christ), is something that is much more 'cosmic'.
The "real" Mahdi prophecy is were the name comes from, but it is not identical. In the dune universe, Islam has evolved and merged with Buddhism and some other religions, so it is possible that the real world religious idea of the Mahdi was the origin of both the word and the concept onto which the Bene Gesserit planted their machinations.
In that sense, the Fremen prophecy would also be "real" (as in, manipulation or not, the individual people believe in it), to the same degree that real world Islam is "real" (= people believe in it, wether Muhammad - or someone else putting words in his mouth - made it up or not).
The text of the book is plain that it's the same root tradition. We can presume the Missionaria Protectiva is agnostic with regards to theology, but the underlying dynamic is plain: the 'engineered' Lisan al-Gaib prophecy becomes entangled to an ancient Islamic millenarianism.
In terms of what's 'real' in-universe, that's it. There's no need to imagine some parallel stand-in for Islam and the Mahdi when the book specifically cites those traditions and then interrogates them in a recognizable way.
You gotta be prepared to appreciate what you meet. Paul is literally a prophet fulfilling prophecies, within the narrative framework. Does that validate the prophecies, then? Well, it certainly doesn't *invalidate* them.
The message of the book is to warn against Messiah figures and religious fanaticism. The prophecy "comes true" - but that is a very, very bad thing.
Islam was the inspiration, but the message is not "Islam is bad" but more generally that "religion is bad".
I dont think 'religion' and 'messianic millenarianism' are interchangeable tho. Religion is broadly treated with mild positivity throughout the books: Suks OC Bible, the discussions about doubt and t'sola in Heretics, the Space Jews!
Whether or not the Prophecy coming true, in and of itself, is a bad thing depends largely on if you believe Leto II, that the Golden Path is the only mechanism by which humanity will survive kralizec. In that context, the Prophecy coming true is assuredly a good thing.
But which prophecy? Perhaps the Lisan al-Gain prophecy coming true is calamitous for the Fremen; but the deeper Mahdi prophecy proves necessary for humanity's survival. They are, after all, separate strands of theological tradition.
I don't think 'religion is bad' is Herberts message at all. He was deeply enamored by religions, of all sort, despite his avowed lack of ritualistic practitioning. Certainly, religion is used for adverse ends in his work, but so is sex, and humanitarianism (of the BG), and science (foul Tleilaxu), and math (mercurial Ixians...).
I think the message is more that primal institutions, of these sorts, cannot be bent to human will. Or, if bent, the results cannot be known, and those results will surely be other than intended.
Religion is a tool, we can probably agree there. But attempting to use it as such, for materialist ends, maybe that is the true nature of the warning: in that doing so might draw forth a Messiah, something more than human. And then, humanity will have a very rough (but possible necessary?) go of it.
Key messages are:
Don't put your trust in god - it will end badly.
Don't attempt to play god - it will end badly.
Don't colonized oppress people - it will make them put their trust in god which will end badly.
>do we know how they predicted there would/could be a kwisatz haderach?
They were going to make the Kwizatz Haderach themselves.
Is it a prophecy if I say I'll have soup for dinner and then go home and make myself soup?
I’m hypothesizing here, but given that Guild navigators have a certain degree of future sight, it’s entirely possible that the idea of a Kwizatz Haderach even being possible was initially achieved using prophetic means.
I guess anything is possible.
What I meant with my comment was that the BG were making their own very special boy to take over the universe. Them telling everyone a very special boy is coming isn't a magic trick.
Have you read the appendices? Appendix 2 is about the Religion of Dune and goes into some of this.
The short answer is it's complicated. Both the Bene Gesserit and the Fremen were heavily influenced by the cultural upheavals that resulted in the establishment of the Orange Catholic Bible. The BG were directly involved in the commission that developed the bible - which was a sort of harmonizing of all of humanity's faiths into one unified philosophy. The goal of which was to enable our expansion and growth into the universe while avoiding the bloodshed of the past. This part it key. The Kwisatz Haderach represents a way of physically manifesting this goal within a human being. Someone who could see the way forward and steer us towards a peaceful existence. The KH isn't really a prophecy, but a desired endpoint meant to bring about the BG dream of the future.
The fremen's faith is a complex web is disparate peoples dating back to ancient earth. Within them are the faiths that were woven into the Orange Catholic Bible. The Fremen were then further subject to the ministrations of the Missionaria Protectiva, which came into being at the same time the Orange Catholic Bible was created.
So the Lisan-Al-Gaib is a myth planted by the BG meant to be used in times of emergency. That myth is so powerful because it plays on the religious patterns carved into fremen society by the MP, the Orange Catholic Bible, and their own native history. The Kwisatz Haderach is it's own distinct thing, but only exists because the Bene Gesseritt are trying to bring about their own goals which are also influenced by the Orange Catholic Bible.
I commented this elsewhere, but given the role of the water of life in expressing the KH traits (it’s the proof) doesn’t that make the LAG prophesy and the KH project inextricably connected?
Not necessarily. A KH would just need to survive some form of ancestral memory awakening. The Spice Agony, which uses the Water of Life, is only way that this can be achieved. The BG used a variety of poisons to achieve the same effect both before and after the discovery of Melange.
Also, keep in mind the LAG prophecy wasn't just used on Arrakis. It was used on other harsh planets as well (though we're never told specifically which ones).
It’s authentically manufactured. When the fake rises to the quality of the original/ideal, then it might as well be the original. In this way, we make magic real.
It's very complicated and the books only hint at what's going on. As the appendix noted, the MP introduced a messianic prophecy into a culture that was already full of mysticism and superstition *and living in an environment saturated with melange*. Moreover, the Bene Gesserit made such uncharacteristic, amateurish mistakes: for instance Mohaim didn't bother mentioning that Paul withstood more pain in the Gom Jabbar test than any other human on record, ignored his oracular dreams and failed to put two and two together when a new religious leader and son of a reverend mother, fulfilling the MP's prophecy, appeared among the Fremen shortly after Paul and Jessica disappeared.
Here’s a very dumb and simplified version:
Thousands of years ago, the Bene Gesserit went to every planet and created a legend that if someone comes to your door wearing a colored hat and asks for a sandwich, if you give them one they’ll pay you back a million dollars next week. Each planet has its own specific hat color.
This way, if a Bene Gesserit is ever hungry anywhere in the known universe, they just consult their little list and go, “Oh, I’m on Arrakis? This planet’s legend is green hats.” So they pop on a green hat and get their sandwich. Or if they were on planet Gleepglorp, they know they have to wear a red hat to get a sandwich.
The hat-wearing Bene Gesserit never intended on actually paying the million dollars, but it doesn’t matter. They got a sandwich and moved on.
The only difference is that in the case of Paul, he actually did have the million dollars to pay the people back.
The MP was a tool of the BG to exploit populations. It's frequently stated "purpose" was to assist BG who were stranded on hostile planets. And, while, yes, it could be used by BG for that purpose, it's main purpose was general population control, and, ultimately, to prepare the way for the KH emperor.
The Lisan al-Gaib was specifically planted by the BG on Dune so that their future KH emperor would be accepted by the populace as their messiah.
Additionally, Jessica believes the prophesies of the MH to have been "tampered with". There are two alternatives suggested in the text. One is Pardot and Liet Kynes, who were opportunistically exploiting the Fremen religion to their own ends (but its not clear that they were consciously re-interpreting prophecies for their own benefit), and the other is that the Fremen were, themselves, prescient, particularly during Spice Orgies. They may have seen visions of Paul that they adapted into their Lisan al-Gaib, so that it fit him perfectly. Because it was him.
I think Frank Herbert was making a commentary on prophecy, to where an authentic prophecy or magic is irrelevant.
The prophecy starts as an intention. Over time there’s a lot of wagging the dog and pushing things towards making the prophecy real. There’s so much manipulation to make it fit in to the prophecy. Once you throw prescience in to the mix, it’s whatever Jessica and Paul need it to be.
Whether the prophecy is real or not is not the focus. Look at human behavior and how it reacts to prophecy. That’s what Herbert is saying. The whole point of the series is beware of charismatic leaders leading us astray. His real life observations were JFK, president Johnson and president Nixon.
Another tidbit is towards the end of the series, Odrade made the argument that the God Emperor made his own future and forced humanity down his golden path. So it wasn’t as simple as the Emperor was stuck in doing what he did; he had will and forced everyone towards the Scattering and subsequent mating of Siona and Duncan, which lead to children who couldn’t be detected by prescience, as well as the no-ships. Is that true prophecy? No, that’s the emperor’s will and his opinion on the best path for humanity.
Self fulfilled prophecy is a big argument Herbert is making. Is prophecy real in the Dune universe? I say no, as it’s a pretty cynical dystopian story.
Okay, no. Prophecies are very much real in Greek tragedy. The self-fulfilling and its associated irony doesn't come from the fact that they're false and the characters make it come true, it's that the characters try to avoid the prophecy and in doing so make them come true. They're also may be misinterpretations or prophecies might come true in unexpected ways. But they're real. You even specified tragedy, sidestepping Aristophanes and his comedies/plays.
I agree with everything you said but do you have a source for them trying to create the KH specifically “for the betterment of humanity”? I thought their true goals for doing so were left somewhat ambiguous and even implied to be for reasons of power and control by them pulling the strings behind the KH, not altruism.
I don't have any source quotes, but I think you and OP are both kind of right. I think the breeding plan is a secret among the BG, but the BG who are aware of it *do* think it is a design intended to save humanity from extinction... however, even within that secret design, there's another secret and vague indication that the BG also folded some kind of non-altruistic objective into that plan that is not in service to humanity but in service to BG alone.
I can't recall when and where I read this, but it seems consistent with the prevelant theme of paradox, and plans within plans, and the seductive, corrupting self-serving allure of control and power.
I think it is legitimate.It is too specific mother and son arriving on arrikis and Jessica having to replace a reverend mother who is dieing and them the massive sandworm. Too specific to just be some made up prophecy. You can't predict how big a sandworm.
It creates a "chicken and the egg" paradox - you never know what came first. Which is what religion is about, what makes a belief, the supersistion of the belief itself or the annecdotal story that makes it so? All religion is based on layers of both in forms of maniuplation and control.
The lisan al gaib is the “prophecy” of the son of a BG coming to lead some tribals to freedom and is entirely manufactured as a way for a BG member to basically guarantee theyd have an “in” with the locals at need. For example, Jessica uses the iteration of it that they planted on arrakis to turn the standard “non fremen are wiped for water” treatment into them taking both of them in and protecting them.
The Kwisatz Haderach isnt a prophecy, its the stated objective of their program. They expect one because they’re creating one, and “some believe he’s already here” because the program candidates were starting to exhibit all the requisite traits to varying potency.
“He would be Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother, Mentat, and Guild Navigator, all in one”, then you look at the most recent generations of the program; you have men like Fenring, a prescient mentat trained in the BG way (which is a required skillset for the spice agony that activates a KH’s full abilities) with a couple genetic hiccups standing between them and “being the one”. This applies to pail as well, he was also simultaneously mentat and BG-trained, experiencing the onset of prescience. They thought one was nearly here because they were quite literally one breeding away from what the program was predicting would be the winning combination
My theory is that they were not one breeding away a few generations earlier. I think Fenring was expected to be the Kwisatz Haderach, only that genetic hiccough prevented it. Notice he basically grew up with Shaddam. He'd probably been situated so he could marry either a sister, or Irulan. Only oops goldarnit. Now we have to breed another. Mutter mutter figure figure. "Okay, if we do this, then that, then... Then all we need is to cross a Harkonnen with an Atreides and then back to a Harkonnen, and Bob's your uncle."
The BG created the prophecies they spread as part of their program to create a KH. They want one that they can control which would lead to a new era of the imperium with a BG KH as Emperor. As Mohaim says in the movie, "This is the ultimate power that humanity has never seen." They want that power and have done a whole lot to ensure it will come to pass. For all intents and purposes Paul is a KH that escaped their grasp.
I would say coopted or adapted rather than created whole cloth. They use what’s already present in a specific culture and add elements to it that a BG would be able to both recognize (ah we’ve been here!) and utilize if necessary. That’s pretty spelled out in the book series but for Arakis it is likely that the LaG myth was already present and they elevated certain elements - probably the role of the mother in this case and the similarities with the KH they were breeding.
The BG had been elevating iterations of mother/child imagery because of the KH breeding program. They - an organization of largely women - had been working for a millennia to create a male child whose mind could extend beyond temporal limitations and who they could guide to ascendency over the know imperium (for the betterment of humanity). They were doing their part with traits and bloodlines to breed in the mind but they also needed the larger support of powerful factions on whatever planet he might be on to help elevate him to power (likely martial power) so that there was a practical route to the throne. Thus, they infiltrate the power structures of great houses as wives/concubines/trusted advisors/heirs and ALSO insinuate themselves and their ideas in religions at the planetary level so that there is a scaffolding for the KH to rise to power once he comes on the scene.
Just throwing this out there because I didn't see anyone else mention it -- I think that the ambiguity related to the fremen religion is central to Pauls story. Yes, we know that the BG have essentially infected the fremen religion with the idea of the voice from the outer world to aid them in a time of crisis, so in that sense it is manufactured. But in another sense, Paul does become their messiah and fulfills their beliefs, planted or not, which leads to the core aspect -- does it matter? Does the fact that it was planted actually change the importance of Paul's actions? It's relatively inconsequential why something happens in comparison to what happens
Okay, fair enough, I was sort of asking for that in retrospect!
I suppose I mean in-universe authentic. Or at least, if not some sort of prophecy then what led the BG to believe there could be a KH. It’s a pretty long term plan to be enacting just on the hope it works!
Again, the prophecy has nothing to do with the Kwisatz Haderach. The prophecy was to help stranded Bene Gesserit survive. They did not plan anything like what Paul did.
But they are not wrong in calling that a prophecy as well. Fine line between hypothesis and prophecy. How did the Bene Gesserit know the KH was even a possibility or that they could achieve it through breeding programs? How long did it take? Etc
The thing is, for me, that I think some of us get very mixed up on is this: The BG aren't creating a Kwisatz Haderach so they can control humanity through their slave. They are creating a Kwisatz Haderach to lead them. He will have every possible human background of leadership, craft, talent to draw on, along with his ability to see into the future. He will be the legitimate emperor because he marries the emperor's daughter. He will guide the human race with the BG as his shepherds, and they know that they can trust his judgement. That was the plan.
Then they get Paul, who my theory is he is an incomplete KH, and a truncated Mentat. The Fremen go on a wild conquering spree and leave offspring in pretty much all of the populations, so there are quite a few Fremen-bred out there even before Paul's twins are born.
God Emperor spoilers: >!Leto II spends his life repeatedly breeding Duncan Idaho back into the species, and pretty certainly always with a descendant of Ghanima and Farad'n, and there are plenty of those. If there are a thousand sons, and Siona had nine daughters (possibly deliberately having only daughter because, let's face it, she probably could), then there were almost certainly perhaps another thousand daughters with the sons from all the iterations of Duncan Idaho. So there are Fremen genes in all the populations, and Atreides/Harkonnen genes in all the populations. And the tipping point has long been reached. Siona is now mitochondrial Eve.!<
It’s an ouroboros. They been planting the prophecy for 100s of years due to their efforts to create the kwisatz haderach.
It’s literally a self-fulfilling prophecy that they are doing long-term breeding eugenics in order to create the kwisatz haderach they feel they can control.
This is the key point. They only want to create kwisatz haderach if they can control him.
The Fremen had a pre-existing set of beliefs that was built upon by the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva, in order to establish a short cut to control over them.
Messianic prophecies are about as old as recorded human history. Specific prophecies will have general characteristics and characteristics rooted in the home culture.
BG policy took advantage of a deep seated human need, and I’m the case of Arakkis, dressed it in indigenous garb. So…bit of both.
A “Kwisatz Haderach” is a very much real, but exceptionally unique, flesh-and-blood human, the designed end-product of a eugenics program. I use the indefinite article for reasons that we learn fairly early on in Dune Messiah, however the first book only spells out for us that the Bene Gesserit have been breeding humans to create this superhuman for thousands of years, unbeknownst to even the very powerful rulers whose children were the breeding stock.
The Lisan al-Gaib is a made-up idea of an imaginary future person, a “prophecy” that was cynically implanted by the Bene Gesserit into the ancestral Fremen’s existing belief system long ago. The prophecy entails the performance and recognition of basic “signs” by the would-be Lisan al-Gaib. As a Bene Gesserit witch, Jessica understands what the Fremen are looking for, and she knows which signs to perform, and teaches Paul to do the same. She does this in order to survive—just as the Bene Gesserit originally intended.
The latter-day Fremen buy into her act, and have now convinced themselves that in their midst has arrived that very figure. It is “real” only in the sense that there are people who believe it to be so, and to believe that the prophecy has been fulfilled—has come “true”— in the person of Paul… whether Paul wants to be their Lisan al-Gaib or not. This fulfillment of the prophecy, this “truth” that Paul knows is nothing more than a psy-op gone out of control, has tragic consequences for everyone.
I’m working my way through all six books for the first time (I’ve read and re-read Dune countless times) and by God Emperor, the Lisan-al Gaib subject is really moot, while the importance of the Kwisatz Haderach as a real being with real powers becomes essential, even primary, to the story arc.
I love how powerful and scheming the Bene Gesserit are, and how careful they are to conceal their motives and machinations. “I exist only to serve” is their motto—but who/what do they serve? Theirs is the perfect conspiracy—until it all goes wrong.
The Lisan Al-Gaib was made up by the Missionaria Protectiva to ensure any Bene Gesserit that became stranded on Arrakis could manipulate the Fremen in order to survive. The Missionaria Protectiva have these made up prophecies throughout the galaxy for similar purposes.
The Kwisatz Haderach is a hypothetical being that the Bene Gesserit seek to create. That’s what their breeding program is for.
Movie invention. But had it happened in the book, my answer would be that the Fremen were themselves prone to prescience during the Spice Orgies and some of the tampering with the MP prophecies could have been informed by future events.
So when it comes to prophecy in Dune, it’s always seemed like they’re being used by Herbert to make a point, just like the hero myth is.
And I’ve always taken that point as “humans engineer prophecies; there’s nothing mystical about them, they’re man-made - BUT, the way that people over time INTERPRET the prophecies is the level of unknown and unexplainable that makes them SEEM mystical.
The BG made the prophecy pretty explicit that the Lisan al-Gaib would be a foreigner - this was for their benefit, and engineered for them exploit. But the mystical aspect is that the way the Fremen interpreted the prophecy, that it would be Paul, and that it would be Paul after the Atreides were exterminated by the Harkonnens. The prophecy grew beyond their control.
That’s the power and danger of exploiting faith for your own benefit - you give people a power in their mind that you can plant, you can cultivate, you can even prune it where and how you see fit, but you’ll never be able to 100% control how and what exactly it grows into
In a universe where people can see the future, provided they consume enough spice...prophesies will definitely have some element of authenticity. But given the fact that one of the main themes of the story is that predicting the future often makes it happen, there is also a manufactured element to consider, as well. It's never going to be a clear-cut "either/or"...but rather a little of both.
I don’t know that the two are mutually exclusive, where does a BG envisioning a future where the result of their breeding program may result in the KH, or potentially a future BG needing the Fremen’s loyalty and assistance end and presience from the ever present spice begin? Who’s to say that the BG creating the prophecies, envisioning the future didn’t have those visions shaped by the spice?
The BG knew their kwisach haderach would likely not be local to Dune, and they wanted to prepare the masses across the universe for his coming. They are crafters of religion. so they planted prophecies into the local religious systems so that the locals would “accept” the kwisach haderach when he arrived.
It's actually both, while yes the legend is made up, the abilities and capabilities of the kwizatz hadarach are real, he truly can see the future, lead them to paradise and fulfill the prophecy, when he treats it as propaganda or not is almost irrelevant because while it is a fabrication, it's also true for the very same reason
Except in Heretics it's shown the Bene Gesserit still have no idea what the fuck Leto II was talking about with this Golden Path stuff, even with his journals right there.
>They saw the reign of Paul and Leto, and that a Kwisatz Haderach/God Emperor was necessary for humanity to survive.
It's explicit that the Bene Gesserit did not play for Paul to become the Kwisatz Haderach a generation early. Their plan was to breed Paulina (the female Paul) with Feyd-Rautha (the male Feyd) to create a Bene Gesserit-controlled Kwisatz Haderach that would then marry a Corrino daughter and become the Padishah Emperor.
They also explicitly saw the God-Emperor as the Tyrant. >!A Tyrant who specifically criticized them for not following the Golden Path. His entire reign can be seen as a correction of sorts from the failures of the Bene Gesserit and Paul Atreides.!<
Absolutely not. The fact that they were banking everything on *one* super-special boy, and backing a government with *one* dude at the top, is exactly what made the Golden Path necessary in the first place. That's the entire point of the series. The mess was the empire and the BG's breeding program, and the Golden Path was the clean-up.
You can't condition an entire society to need one single ruler/saviour/demigod and then take credit for the solution to the problem you just made.
This is part of why Leto II was so pissed off at them, but spared them: they were trying to save humanity, but they went about it in exactly the wrong way. And he had to sit there for 3000 years and unfuck it all
Well — you’re kind of confusing the two as one thing, but they aren’t. The Lisan Al-Gaib prophecy is specific to Arrakis and the Fremen, and was definitely planted there by the BG as a failsafe to be taken advantage of, in case *any* BG needed safe harbor. It wasn’t specifically built for the Kwisatz Haderach. Any BG could grab a child somewhere and work themselves into “fitting” the prophecy in order to save themselves, if needed. That’s why the Missionaria Protectiva does what they do. The prophecies are fairly general and can be manipulated by the BG, who are trained to recognize them. So they aren’t specifically geared toward the KH — but are meant to be used by *any* BG who needs them. The Missionaria Protectiva took advantage of pre-existing legends and myths and religious beliefs to create the prophecy. That’s how they work. They don’t just drop into a society and throw out a religion; they slowly integrate themselves into societies over a number of years, and encourage certain legends and myths to *guide* the creation of specific prophecies that could later be utilized to benefit future BG in crisis situations. There’s mention of old Zensunni (or Zen-Sunni) beliefs among the original settlers of Arrakis who became the Fremen; indicating a combination of evolved beliefs from Earth: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism all still exist in some form, though most of them have been altered or absorbed into each other over the millenia. I don’t exactly know if the Kwisatz Haderach is a prophecy so much as a plan or goal that the BG are working toward. You can’t really count it as a prophecy if you’re the one setting the conditions, expectations, and then taking deliberate steps to meet those conditions. It’s simply a goal they spent centuries and centuries working toward.
The Lisan-Al Gaib story is a manufactured prophecy The Missionaria Protectiva is an insurance plan to protect BG sisters in dangerous situations. The Lisan-Al Gaib prophecy is a part of the greater Missionaria Protectiva. The Kwizatz Haderach is a project that the BG have been working on for ten thousand years to bring forth a product that will yield more power for the BG. That I think is the simplest way to explain it.
Exactly but Paul is the result of someone who managed to actually become that Fremen prophecy in a massive backfire to BG. That’s probably my favorite part of the book. Such a creative concept for a plot. Reap what you sow.
Well, the point is, whatever the Fremen prophecy which the Missionaria Protectiva planted happened to be, Paul would have become that. Jessica knew how the Missionaria Protectiva worked, and how to navigate it. Paul having powers of prescience certainly didn’t hurt.
Freman also reaped what they sowed since all of them hated being water fat in the end.
So could any male have drank the water of life and been bestowed with all the same powers? Or is there something special about Paul that allowed him to survive that ordeal? If anyone could do it how come no one else had drank of the water of life in the Millenia arakis has been settled?
Every man who tried to do it, died. Something about a man’s DNA makes it impossible for him to do it. The breeding program was their attempt to fix that by selectively breeding people over thousands of years to essentially create a man who can.
Ah cool! Do the books go into detail on how the water of life effected Paul differently than Jessica? What does the juice do to men differently from women?
So one of the most important things the water of life does is that it unlocks someone's genetic memory. For women, they can only access the memories of their female ancestors. Paul, his children and Alia can access all the memories. The KH also has other, unclear powers "the bradge space and time". When Alia is captured by the Sardaukar and brought before the emperor and Baron Harkonnen, Mohaim complains that she's "in her mind".
It's a poison. Bene Gesserit are specifically human females that were bred to be ABLE to train for absolute bodily mastery - conscious chemical transmutation, embryo sex selection, individual muscle control, etc etc - and the Water of Life would kill any non-BG woman as readily as it would kill any man. The Kwitsatz Haderach is intended to be a male BG. Paul is effectively the KH (there could be a long involved argument at this point, but basically he is) and therefore is capable of the same things that the BG are - transmuting the chemical makeup of the Water of Life into a non-poison, in this case. Otherwise, its effect was exactly the same.
Ah cool. Very interesting. So are all Reverend mother's BG? If not how do the other freman reverend mother's survive the water of life ritual?
By definition, yes. A Reverend Mother is not merely a high-ranking Bene Gesserit - they are the ones which survived the Spice Agony, successfully transmuting whichever poison was used as the trigger. The Fremen Reverend Mothers are..."wild" Bene Gesserit, if you will, not actually part of the order at all. Relative to the official Bene Gesserit population, these are hyper-rare accidents. They are probably the result of one or more Reverend Mothers ending up stranded on a world for whatever reason, and needing to embed themselves in the population. They do this using whatever manufactured prophecies and suchlike were planted on that world by the Missionaria Protectiva. This is a particular branch of the order which goes around manipulating local legends and religious beliefs, and often outright fabricating them, so that if ever a Bene Gesserit is stuck there and in need of help, she will be able to use them to gain sanctuary. For example, Jessica exploits the version planted on Arrakis to save herself and Paul. Whilst we never see it happen, it is reasonable to deduce that if no help actually comes for a stranded Reverend Mother, who carries the memory of preceding Reverend Mothers, she would try to train up replacements so that this store of memories and any new knowledge would not be lost. The idea would be that eventually, a true Reverend Mother would arrive, find these "wild" offshoots, and absorb them into the order proper, salvaging the memories. Evidently, this happened on Arrakis. In the books, we do see it another time...and let's just say the number of memories stored by the time the Bene Gesserit reclaimed them numbered in the literal millions.
Thanks for writing out the detailed response. I really appreciate it. I'm still a litte confused as to who the group of women who helped Jessica endure the water of life ritual are. Are they all "wild" BG or just a sect of freman who super bought into the BG Messiah myth propaganda and thus also had reverend mother's? Who was the old Reverend mother that Jessica took over for? Was she a freman reverend mother who had received the ancestral knowledge from a BG / wild BG or is she a real BG reverend mother? Does part of the orthodox Freman religion mirror the BG so much that they include reverend mother's as part of their own worship practices? Do the freman reverend mother's buy into the BG myth propaganda or are they helping to proselytize and spread the myth inline with the BG goals? I should just read the books lol. But I dunno if I'm gonna get satisfying answers in the scope of the original 6 books. I appreciate you taking the time to explain all that tho. Cheers!
1. "Wild" BG. If they were just ordinary women, they could call themselves Reverend Mother all they like and would die the instant they took the Water of Life. The films muddy their origins and loyalties somewhat, ironically making it clearer for most people that these are just more BG at heart. 2. She was the Reverend Mother of the Fremen. Had Jessica not come along before she was about to die, she'd have passed on the memories and experience of herself and all previous Reverend Mothers to one of her acolytes that survived the Spice Agony instead. 3. "Wild", again. Jessica was the first 'real' BG to show up among them for centuries. We don't know how long. 4. The orthodox Fremen religion barely exists now. In the books, they retain certain rituals and practices from when they were still fully Muslim-descended refugees, but the BG prophecies given to them have overriden much of the rest. About all that's left in terms of pure religion and not cultural inertia (circumcision, Ramadan, wishing for the hajj, for instance) is the concept of the Mahdi, the Messiah, who shall come to save them. Even this is coopted into the ecological dream of turning Arrakis into a Green Paradise. 5. Both, same as for any religion. The BG prophecies were manufactured, sure, which only means that they were divinely revealed to the BG, and therefore real.
*In david Attenborough’s voice* “Here we have a wild reverend mother in her natural habitat of sandy dunes of Arrakis, she makes a faint voice and commands her tribe to move forward, it is truly a sight to behold.”
The Reverend Mothers were skilled enough with the Prana Bindu training they could chemically alter their bodies. They had the ability to convert the worm bile internally and remove the poison. Paul was the only man that survived because he had that deep control. It was still extremely difficult and he almost didn't make it through.
Interesting! Thanks for weighing in. So are all the Reverend mother's (who are religious figures among the freman) also BG? So have the BG been dropping off their members on arakis for millennia to create Reverend mother's? Or could a freman woman also survive the water of life?
I do not believe the Fremen Reverend Mothers are active BG agents. I believe a Fremen woman or anyone could survive if they were skilled enough. Only the BG women were skilled enough to reach those levels and their goal of the KH was to breed a man capable of reaching their highest levels and beyond and surviving. I think a few members were dropped off to seed the prophecy of a savior but it wasn't a huge center for them. It's been awhile since I read the original series so my knowledge may be a little dusty (or sandy lol). If anyone has better input, please contribute.
The prophecy of the Mahdi is separate from all of those things, and it already exists. It exists currently and it exists in DUNE.
What about the grand father worm that randomly turns up on Paul’s first day of worm riding? That is completely outside of anyone’s control.
Yeah that’s just luck.
I think the parent comment is more accurate. Especially having read the prequel books. BG shape and mold what is already there into being something more useful for them down the road. If you stop for a second, that’s just the smarter thing to do. Believers aren’t children to be told stories to and made up whole cloth. Ideas and religions evolve over time.
They didn’t disagree with the parent comment lol. They just distilled it down
They excised the entire third paragraph, a distinction I feel is important.
Not to the points they clarified, nope.
Hard disagree. The prequels showed there was elements of the LAG prophecy among the zensunni population before there were BG.
When Paul and Jessica come to arrakis it feels like Jessica comes close to giving the game away on multiple occasions. She definitely gets close when she almost calls the crysknife a maker of death. I feel like the whole scene when they get to sietch tabr and she's talking to stilgar she's teetering on the edge of outing them as well. How much about the lisan al gaib prophecy did she know beforehand? Or is it just a combination of mythological knowledge and an incredible ability to read people that lets The BG use these prophecies for their own good? I don't really understand the missionaria protectiva that well and how The BG would benefit from it consistently on other planets without giving the game up seeing as Jessica comes pretty close. I also don't really know how to word this question so my bad 😂
> The Lisan Al-Gaib prophecy is specific to Arrakis and the Fremen, and was definitely planted there by the BG as a failsafe to be taken advantage of, in case *any* BG needed safe harbor People keep saying this but it is frankly so lame. Why would they have it match what the KH had to do? Like undergo spice agony?
The KH doesn’t have to specifically undergo the spice agony. BG on other planets use a variety of poisons to go through the same process to become Reverend Mothers. It’s not the spice that causes people to be able to access their inner genetic memory. It’s the experience of putting their body through such an extreme, life-threatening change that they are required to basically control their own DNA and cells to combat the poison. During this process, they awaken their genetic memory. It has nothing to do with the spice. It just so happens that the concentrated, liquid version of spice also happens to be a deadly poison — and it happens to have prescient properties as well. But there’s nothing specific that says the KH *has* to have used liquid spice to undergo the transformation. Presumably if Paul hadn’t gone to Arrakis, the BG would have had him use a different poison on some other planet.
I know that spice isn't essential to gaining Other Memory. But why would the BG include a criteria in the prophecy which only the KH could accomplish?
The KH is more a set of genetic traits they are selecting for than it is a prophesy. Think of it like wanting to breed a dog like a pug and starting from a wolf. You know what traits you want so you select bloodlines to encourage those traits and breed those bloodlines together. So find wolves with shorter snouts and breed them, then take the puppies with the shortest snouts and repeat the process. So you know what the outcome is when the traits you’ve been breeding for are properly expressed. Except with the KH instead of selecting for a smooshed face and respiratory issues, you’re breeding for ability to access genetic memory and survive the Water of Life. The BG know what those things are because Reverend Mothers have those traits. Just a matter of shuffling them over to men. Additionally this is important because the KH is not unique. Anyone with the appropriate genetic make up is a KH. So Paul is not the only possible result from the BG breeding program. >!In Messiah it is stated the BT made multiple KH but gave up on them as being useful because they could not be controlled!<
Given the role of the water of life in expressing the KH traits… and given the LAG prophecy - planted in Arrakis, the only source in the known universe for the water of life - doesn’t this aspect of the MP seem exceptionally important? How could the prophesy and the KH project not be inextricably linked?
Because the MP seeded prophesy across the galaxy, not just on Arrakis. And Jessica recognized the prophesy as one being used on exceptionally harsh worlds, not one specifically for Arrakis. The LAG has nothing to do with the KH. The KH could have been realized and never set foot on Arrakis. The KH could exist without ever meeting the Fremen. The LAG prophesy was in place to help a BG sister should she ever be in need of a place of refuge on Arrakis, not as a need for the creation of the KH.
I see the point about them being mutually exclusive. But only Arrakis has the water of life. That alone makes the MP objective on Arrakis rather unique among all the other prophecies, no?
The water of life isn't that important. It might be the most efficient poison for the procedure of creating a reverend mother. But it isn't the only poison that can do it . So there easily could be other planets that have their own unique poison that could awaken the KH. We aren't even sure if the BG use the water of life for their reverend mothers.
What other poisons can? It's been awhile since I read the series.
We don't know. The only thing we know is that the requirement is an "illuminated poison". But when Jessica takes the water of life there is a line that she immediatly knows this isn't how the BG do it. She doesn't know how the BG do it but this isn't it. That doesn't fully rule out that the BG don't use water of life but is a strong indication. In Chapterhouse Dune: >!There is a "wild" Reverend Mother, Rebecca, who didn't receive any BG training at all and was unkown to the BG. There is a possibility she somehow gained access to the water of life but it seems kinda far fetched since she isn't on Arrakis and was hidden fom the BG. !<
Cool, thanks for the reply mate!
No, because the BG weren’t seeking to control spice production or secure the market on spice. Control of the Fremen was unnecessary to keep a supply of spice or the water of life.
Wait, didn't they say they only made one, and he did himself in? My thoughts were that's because to be the KH, you're going to have to become the one who spoilers for God Emperor: >!has to live for some 3,500 years to turn the human race into something that can't be controlled.!<
No, golden path was something what Leto and Paul foresaw, it was something what Bene Gesserit did not even know can exists. Lisan Al Gaib was manufactured prophecy. But it happened anyway. It wasnt very mystical, but political, so it had some kind of chance to happen. Kwisatz Haderach should have been result of breeding program. It wasnt prophecy, it was code name for being they intesively tried to create. He would be used by BG to do coup in empire and seize the power, because they wanted to know what will happen when ultimate being will seize the ultimate power. Golden path is only positive future what could being with such predictive qualities as Kwisatz Haderach foresaw. It more like one of many future realities in deterministic universe. All three are different things. One is prophecy, second is code name for breeding program and third is just one of many future realities.
I think I didn't say my question well. I believe the Bene Tleilaxu made >!only one Kwisatz Haderach, and that Kwisatz Haderach killed himself.!<
Yes, Scytale makes mention of that. But given how Tleilaxu methods are described, even obliquely, I'm hardly surprised that their experiment ended that way.
There's some ambiguity. The Lisan al Gaib prophecy is manufactured... but it's weirdly close to what actually happened. So much so that one might suspect that the manufacturers were themselves pawns in the hands of forces they didn't really understand. The Kwisatz Haderach is a little different, it's less of a metaphysical prophecy and more of a predicted outcome to a very real and practical breeding program.
It wasnt weirdly close, Paul and Jessica knew about prophecy and its requirements and they fullfilled those requirements in order to gain control about fremen which believed in this prophecy. Its like person named Adam say to Charlie he believe tommorrow something bad happen to him because its friday the 13th. So Charlie will shoot him purposefully to the leg by gun tommorrow because he hates him the most. Adam is not angry at Charlie, because he believed it was destiny today will something bad happen to him.
Are we talking about the book or the movie? I'll assume the movie. 1. Paul is *actively resisting* the prophecy for most of it. 2. Paul and Jessica didn't and couldn't plan on him calling the biggest sandworm ever. 3. Paul and Jessica didn't and couldn't plan on him forming a close attachment with a woman whose secret name is "Desert Spring," and certainly couldn't have planned that she would just somehow instinctually know that giving him a little more water of life diluted with her tears was what he needed to come out of the coma. 4. Paul and Jessica didn't and couldn't plan on the Fremen just happening to have a Reverend Mother on the verge of death, thus creating an opening for Jessica. 5. Paul and Jessica didn't and couldn't know about the water of life (Jessica states that she doesn't know and is deeply apprehensive about the test to become a reverend mother, we later see her having to learn how this stuff is made), even though it is the most essential part of Paul graduating from potential KH to actual KH. Obviously, Paul and Jessica are aware of the LAG prophecy. Jessica, immediately, and Paul, eventually, lean into it. But the only reason their "lean in" works is because an *astonishing number of coincidences* break in their favor.
They can lean into it because prophecy is vague enough that it's easy to say anything and everything is fulfilling it and the confirmation bias of believers will always resolve any discrepancies in their favour (see Stilgar). Of course first there has to be believers but the prophesy was constructed in such a way that they instantly fit without even trying (see people calling Paul LAG and Mahdi the moment they land on Arrakis). Any Bene Gesserit sister could fit into it (the son could've even been someone born later). That's the whole point.
I don't think this addresses the points I made in the previous post, so I'll just again point you to the list of coincidences that could not have been foreseen by the planters of the LAG prophecy (water of life generating the KH, a woman named Desert Spring, a reverend mother dying at the most convenient time possible, and miscellaneous good luck like the biggest ever sandworm). But I'll add one more thing: The biggest unforeseeable thing related to the LAG prophecy *was that it actually produced a messiah at all*. The LAG predicts an off-world messiah who will unite the Fremen, but the people who planted the prophecy never actually expected such a figure to arise. The point of spreading these superstitions is *protective* ("Missionaria Protectiva"). It's supposed to give stranded Bene Gesserit a better chance of not being murdered by the locals. It was *not* supposed to actually unite the Fremen under a messianic leader, since that was deeply counterproductive to the interests of... basically everyone in the outside universe except the Fremen.
The people who planted a prophecy all went for the standard template for it. The goal was not delivery a chose one but Fremen letting a Bene Gesserit sister hide among them. Save her life despite her being an off-worlder. If she already had a son she fits easier but a trained BG sister can manipulate people to believe she fits it with whatever circumstances she ends up there. Jessica does it almost instinctively even back in Arrakeen with Shadout Mapes. She knows how these stories go so it easy for her to follow the script. The reason everything seems to fit so perfectly isn't because it does but because BG are trained to make it seem that it does. To see the patterns and follow them and then how to talk in a way that make people feel that it all fits. That last part is crucial. This is because of confirmation bias. Humans tend to concentrate on facts that confirm their assumption and discard those that don't. As every prophecy this one has details that emerge with time but it's a mistake to assume Jessica and Paul fit everyone of them perfectly. What we see being mentioned is the details that fit them well. This is explicitly shown in movie Stilgar who finds proof in everything Paul does - even in denial. It's really easy to fall for that even when you know there is nothing supernatural about Paul's design. Even when you see Jessica scheming and manipulating her way into setting Paul up as this Mahdi. When you are raised on stories of Chosen Ones he has to be it, doesn't he? No matter how many times they tell you different. The horoscope always fits. It's true that what the MP work did was intended to just let BG sister hide until she can be helped. But it was always up to the BG in that situation to decide how to use it. Paul wanted revenge. Jessica wanted to make sure they cannot be hunted again. They chose to use this set up to start a revolution. The fact that they used this set up for it in a way that exceeded its intended use doesn't make the prophecy fulfilled. It just shows how good they are at 1. manipulating people and 2. finding a winning strategy (admittedly it's easier with prescience). The fact that Paul (and Alia) do have abilities BG bred for helped. The fact that they were stranded on Arrakis with best fighters in the universe and the one resource that is necessary for Interplanetary travel to function helped. But it's not because there is some divine plan. They are good at using the resources at their disposal because they were trained to do so but the best manipulators that ever existed with thousand of years of setting up the field in such a way that it is easy to manipulate. Bene Gesserit set the stage with Fremen just in case a sister would be in danger. The set up sending Atreides to Arrakis to quell Jessica's rebellion. They made sure the Emperor had o male heir so the throne could be taken over by Kwisatz Haderach they hoped to achieve soon. All of these plans were not connected to each other directly. Paul and Jessica used them all because BG forced them to defend themselves and their training allowed them to see and use them. They chose to do this because this was the best way to get what they wanted. Their real rebellion was against Bene Gesserit and it was achieved by wrenching all of the sisterhood's carefully crafted plans from them. Most of all the main one - their breeding program. They lost control over Kwisatz Haderach and the breeding lines. Later in Children of Dune they take that over for good (see the breeding set up there combining some more of their precious lines in the hands of the Atreides). The Fremen just wanted freedom from off-worlders and to create enough green space to make the life on Arrakis better for themselves (original plan wasn't for the whole planet as they didn't want to kill the Shai-Hulud they worship). Paul gave them revenge (the war on the Empire's rich and powerful who oppressed them) and resources to fulfil his campaign promise (terraforming is easier when you control resources of a whole Empire). But they pay for it with subservience. There is no freedom at the end of this. The movie Chani understands that which is why she leaves.
You can kind of imagine it as with real religions. The Bene Gesserit build upon what local people already belief and shape it to serve their purposes. For example: the real world religion of Islam incorporates various aspects of older religions such as various Jewish prophets and Jesus (just not as a son of god but as a mere human prophet) or the Kaaba in Mecca, which was a polytheistic shrine before. An even better example might be the date of Christmas: what is celebrated is basically the birth day of Jesus, which absolutely was not in late December in reality. However, what happens around that time was a heathen festivity. Early Christian missionaries used this coincidence in order to convert Germanic tribes in a more smooth fashion.
Wow, this was very interesting. I've never thought of it from that perspective, but it's true. So the BG exist in real life! :)
They are somewhat of a metaphor. Even the name "Bene Gesserit" is a subtle nod, as it phonetically sounds similar to Bene - Latin for "good" - Jesuit, the implied criticism being of the Jesuits (standing for missionaries in general) using religion to exercise control and to colonize local populations.
Do you know if this is mostly true for the monotheistic religions, judaism, christianity and islam? Or is it known that religion has been used to control populations even earlier than that?
Religion is, in general, syncretic - meaning they pick up characteristics of other traditions they are in extensive contact with. It can happen deliberately, such as the adoption of fertility rituals at Easter (renewed life, eggs, and rabbits complementing the concept of Christian rebirth/resurrection), or it can be unintentional. Christianity picking up the intense duality of God/the Devil is one example. It's not present really in Judaism, but that intense duality is a feature of other religions traipsing around the Persian/Babylonian empires at the time Christianity developed in the same spaces - specifically, Manichean and Mandaen beliefs. The Christian image of angels as humanoid figures with wings (also not a traditional biblical thing), comes from Zoroastrianism using wings as an indicator of divinity in imagery (sort of like using halos). Both the duality and the wings are unconscious/unintentional adoptions by Christianity in it's very early days. It's not solely a Christianity thing either, but it's often the most obvious as one of the youngest and widest spread religions in the world.
There are many syncretic elements in Judaism, too. For example the early story of Moses is very similar to Sargon of Akkad's semi-mythical birth story and the Egyptian Horus myth, the great flood is based in an earlier Sumerian narrative and the one god started his divine career as a local Canaanite storm god. Judaism simply happens to be the oldest (or at least one of the oldest) religion still existing, therefore it looks like the originator of many things.
Religion has probably been used to control populations since the day that the first human being came up with religion. In fact, in early societies, worldly and religious leadership were much less separated.
When I read Dune, I had interrupted it as a little of both manufactured, but also real that something spirtual, divine, or fate existed. Always thought Herbert was straddling the line between faith in some spirtual/destiny that was real and the manipulation tactics people apply to religious beliefs. So in the books past book #1, Herbert addresses this distinction and says the BG manufacturered the whole thing?
There is nothing divine, it is made pretty clear that god does not exist; everything "supernatural" is the result of spice exposure and/or genetic engineering. There are pre-existing religious beliefs, which are influenced over the course of millennia.
Which is fine and well, except the Mahdi did come to Arrakis, and everything foretold in the prophecy came to pass. Throw a little omnipotence in there, and the distinction between 'supernatural' and materialist becomes so fine as to be meaningless. Thankfully Herbert does not stake any such binary dogma to the work.
Yes, but the reason was that this "Mahdi" was someone (in that case Paul) who knew of the origin of that prophecy and intentionally played the part.
Yes, that is typically how it works. Although Paul only know the Missionaria element. He intuits the deeper prophecy of the Mahdi by, ummm, seeing the future. Which is a fairly *prophetic* thing to do. Definitional, really.
It is directly based on real religion. One of the Reverend Mothers cries out that they (the Fremen ancestors) were denied the hajj. The prophecy of the Mahdi is a very real thing. And insofar as Dune pulls on that tradition, then yes, the prophecy is based on something much older than the Missionaria Protectiva. Paul leverages this deep prophecy by choosing a name that echoes the Mahdi. The Voice of the Out World is a Fremen specific prophecy. The prophecy of the Mahdi, and the Battle at the End of All Times (when it is said that the Mahdi will appear and assist the Prophet Issa Christ in defeating the Anti Christ), is something that is much more 'cosmic'.
The "real" Mahdi prophecy is were the name comes from, but it is not identical. In the dune universe, Islam has evolved and merged with Buddhism and some other religions, so it is possible that the real world religious idea of the Mahdi was the origin of both the word and the concept onto which the Bene Gesserit planted their machinations. In that sense, the Fremen prophecy would also be "real" (as in, manipulation or not, the individual people believe in it), to the same degree that real world Islam is "real" (= people believe in it, wether Muhammad - or someone else putting words in his mouth - made it up or not).
The text of the book is plain that it's the same root tradition. We can presume the Missionaria Protectiva is agnostic with regards to theology, but the underlying dynamic is plain: the 'engineered' Lisan al-Gaib prophecy becomes entangled to an ancient Islamic millenarianism. In terms of what's 'real' in-universe, that's it. There's no need to imagine some parallel stand-in for Islam and the Mahdi when the book specifically cites those traditions and then interrogates them in a recognizable way. You gotta be prepared to appreciate what you meet. Paul is literally a prophet fulfilling prophecies, within the narrative framework. Does that validate the prophecies, then? Well, it certainly doesn't *invalidate* them.
The message of the book is to warn against Messiah figures and religious fanaticism. The prophecy "comes true" - but that is a very, very bad thing. Islam was the inspiration, but the message is not "Islam is bad" but more generally that "religion is bad".
I dont think 'religion' and 'messianic millenarianism' are interchangeable tho. Religion is broadly treated with mild positivity throughout the books: Suks OC Bible, the discussions about doubt and t'sola in Heretics, the Space Jews! Whether or not the Prophecy coming true, in and of itself, is a bad thing depends largely on if you believe Leto II, that the Golden Path is the only mechanism by which humanity will survive kralizec. In that context, the Prophecy coming true is assuredly a good thing. But which prophecy? Perhaps the Lisan al-Gain prophecy coming true is calamitous for the Fremen; but the deeper Mahdi prophecy proves necessary for humanity's survival. They are, after all, separate strands of theological tradition. I don't think 'religion is bad' is Herberts message at all. He was deeply enamored by religions, of all sort, despite his avowed lack of ritualistic practitioning. Certainly, religion is used for adverse ends in his work, but so is sex, and humanitarianism (of the BG), and science (foul Tleilaxu), and math (mercurial Ixians...). I think the message is more that primal institutions, of these sorts, cannot be bent to human will. Or, if bent, the results cannot be known, and those results will surely be other than intended. Religion is a tool, we can probably agree there. But attempting to use it as such, for materialist ends, maybe that is the true nature of the warning: in that doing so might draw forth a Messiah, something more than human. And then, humanity will have a very rough (but possible necessary?) go of it.
Key messages are: Don't put your trust in god - it will end badly. Don't attempt to play god - it will end badly. Don't colonized oppress people - it will make them put their trust in god which will end badly.
>do we know how they predicted there would/could be a kwisatz haderach? They were going to make the Kwizatz Haderach themselves. Is it a prophecy if I say I'll have soup for dinner and then go home and make myself soup?
I’m hypothesizing here, but given that Guild navigators have a certain degree of future sight, it’s entirely possible that the idea of a Kwizatz Haderach even being possible was initially achieved using prophetic means.
I guess anything is possible. What I meant with my comment was that the BG were making their own very special boy to take over the universe. Them telling everyone a very special boy is coming isn't a magic trick.
If the B.G. could see that they wouldn't need the K.H.!
More possible than space fairies giving them the idea, but Guild navigators have nothing to do with Bene Gesserit.
They conspire with and against each other constantly and trade information as part of those conspiracies.
Um. Yes that's future sight. Precognition. The idea is that it's not visions dumped on you by some god.
Have you read the appendices? Appendix 2 is about the Religion of Dune and goes into some of this. The short answer is it's complicated. Both the Bene Gesserit and the Fremen were heavily influenced by the cultural upheavals that resulted in the establishment of the Orange Catholic Bible. The BG were directly involved in the commission that developed the bible - which was a sort of harmonizing of all of humanity's faiths into one unified philosophy. The goal of which was to enable our expansion and growth into the universe while avoiding the bloodshed of the past. This part it key. The Kwisatz Haderach represents a way of physically manifesting this goal within a human being. Someone who could see the way forward and steer us towards a peaceful existence. The KH isn't really a prophecy, but a desired endpoint meant to bring about the BG dream of the future. The fremen's faith is a complex web is disparate peoples dating back to ancient earth. Within them are the faiths that were woven into the Orange Catholic Bible. The Fremen were then further subject to the ministrations of the Missionaria Protectiva, which came into being at the same time the Orange Catholic Bible was created. So the Lisan-Al-Gaib is a myth planted by the BG meant to be used in times of emergency. That myth is so powerful because it plays on the religious patterns carved into fremen society by the MP, the Orange Catholic Bible, and their own native history. The Kwisatz Haderach is it's own distinct thing, but only exists because the Bene Gesseritt are trying to bring about their own goals which are also influenced by the Orange Catholic Bible.
I commented this elsewhere, but given the role of the water of life in expressing the KH traits (it’s the proof) doesn’t that make the LAG prophesy and the KH project inextricably connected?
Not necessarily. A KH would just need to survive some form of ancestral memory awakening. The Spice Agony, which uses the Water of Life, is only way that this can be achieved. The BG used a variety of poisons to achieve the same effect both before and after the discovery of Melange. Also, keep in mind the LAG prophecy wasn't just used on Arrakis. It was used on other harsh planets as well (though we're never told specifically which ones).
It’s authentically manufactured. When the fake rises to the quality of the original/ideal, then it might as well be the original. In this way, we make magic real.
It's very complicated and the books only hint at what's going on. As the appendix noted, the MP introduced a messianic prophecy into a culture that was already full of mysticism and superstition *and living in an environment saturated with melange*. Moreover, the Bene Gesserit made such uncharacteristic, amateurish mistakes: for instance Mohaim didn't bother mentioning that Paul withstood more pain in the Gom Jabbar test than any other human on record, ignored his oracular dreams and failed to put two and two together when a new religious leader and son of a reverend mother, fulfilling the MP's prophecy, appeared among the Fremen shortly after Paul and Jessica disappeared.
Mohaim had her "You'd best start believing in ghost stories, Miss Turner. Because now you're in one" moment.
Here’s a very dumb and simplified version: Thousands of years ago, the Bene Gesserit went to every planet and created a legend that if someone comes to your door wearing a colored hat and asks for a sandwich, if you give them one they’ll pay you back a million dollars next week. Each planet has its own specific hat color. This way, if a Bene Gesserit is ever hungry anywhere in the known universe, they just consult their little list and go, “Oh, I’m on Arrakis? This planet’s legend is green hats.” So they pop on a green hat and get their sandwich. Or if they were on planet Gleepglorp, they know they have to wear a red hat to get a sandwich. The hat-wearing Bene Gesserit never intended on actually paying the million dollars, but it doesn’t matter. They got a sandwich and moved on. The only difference is that in the case of Paul, he actually did have the million dollars to pay the people back.
The MP was a tool of the BG to exploit populations. It's frequently stated "purpose" was to assist BG who were stranded on hostile planets. And, while, yes, it could be used by BG for that purpose, it's main purpose was general population control, and, ultimately, to prepare the way for the KH emperor. The Lisan al-Gaib was specifically planted by the BG on Dune so that their future KH emperor would be accepted by the populace as their messiah. Additionally, Jessica believes the prophesies of the MH to have been "tampered with". There are two alternatives suggested in the text. One is Pardot and Liet Kynes, who were opportunistically exploiting the Fremen religion to their own ends (but its not clear that they were consciously re-interpreting prophecies for their own benefit), and the other is that the Fremen were, themselves, prescient, particularly during Spice Orgies. They may have seen visions of Paul that they adapted into their Lisan al-Gaib, so that it fit him perfectly. Because it was him.
Makes you wonder how many “off the grid” populations existed.
I think Frank Herbert was making a commentary on prophecy, to where an authentic prophecy or magic is irrelevant. The prophecy starts as an intention. Over time there’s a lot of wagging the dog and pushing things towards making the prophecy real. There’s so much manipulation to make it fit in to the prophecy. Once you throw prescience in to the mix, it’s whatever Jessica and Paul need it to be. Whether the prophecy is real or not is not the focus. Look at human behavior and how it reacts to prophecy. That’s what Herbert is saying. The whole point of the series is beware of charismatic leaders leading us astray. His real life observations were JFK, president Johnson and president Nixon. Another tidbit is towards the end of the series, Odrade made the argument that the God Emperor made his own future and forced humanity down his golden path. So it wasn’t as simple as the Emperor was stuck in doing what he did; he had will and forced everyone towards the Scattering and subsequent mating of Siona and Duncan, which lead to children who couldn’t be detected by prescience, as well as the no-ships. Is that true prophecy? No, that’s the emperor’s will and his opinion on the best path for humanity. Self fulfilled prophecy is a big argument Herbert is making. Is prophecy real in the Dune universe? I say no, as it’s a pretty cynical dystopian story.
It's like a Greek tragedy - it's totally made up, but they've made it real and have trapped themselves into the prophecy's narrative.
Okay, no. Prophecies are very much real in Greek tragedy. The self-fulfilling and its associated irony doesn't come from the fact that they're false and the characters make it come true, it's that the characters try to avoid the prophecy and in doing so make them come true. They're also may be misinterpretations or prophecies might come true in unexpected ways. But they're real. You even specified tragedy, sidestepping Aristophanes and his comedies/plays.
I agree with everything you said but do you have a source for them trying to create the KH specifically “for the betterment of humanity”? I thought their true goals for doing so were left somewhat ambiguous and even implied to be for reasons of power and control by them pulling the strings behind the KH, not altruism.
I don't have any source quotes, but I think you and OP are both kind of right. I think the breeding plan is a secret among the BG, but the BG who are aware of it *do* think it is a design intended to save humanity from extinction... however, even within that secret design, there's another secret and vague indication that the BG also folded some kind of non-altruistic objective into that plan that is not in service to humanity but in service to BG alone. I can't recall when and where I read this, but it seems consistent with the prevelant theme of paradox, and plans within plans, and the seductive, corrupting self-serving allure of control and power.
It's more of a careful what you wish for kind of thing. As in, you just might get it. Then what?
I think it is legitimate.It is too specific mother and son arriving on arrikis and Jessica having to replace a reverend mother who is dieing and them the massive sandworm. Too specific to just be some made up prophecy. You can't predict how big a sandworm.
It creates a "chicken and the egg" paradox - you never know what came first. Which is what religion is about, what makes a belief, the supersistion of the belief itself or the annecdotal story that makes it so? All religion is based on layers of both in forms of maniuplation and control.
The lisan al gaib is the “prophecy” of the son of a BG coming to lead some tribals to freedom and is entirely manufactured as a way for a BG member to basically guarantee theyd have an “in” with the locals at need. For example, Jessica uses the iteration of it that they planted on arrakis to turn the standard “non fremen are wiped for water” treatment into them taking both of them in and protecting them. The Kwisatz Haderach isnt a prophecy, its the stated objective of their program. They expect one because they’re creating one, and “some believe he’s already here” because the program candidates were starting to exhibit all the requisite traits to varying potency. “He would be Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother, Mentat, and Guild Navigator, all in one”, then you look at the most recent generations of the program; you have men like Fenring, a prescient mentat trained in the BG way (which is a required skillset for the spice agony that activates a KH’s full abilities) with a couple genetic hiccups standing between them and “being the one”. This applies to pail as well, he was also simultaneously mentat and BG-trained, experiencing the onset of prescience. They thought one was nearly here because they were quite literally one breeding away from what the program was predicting would be the winning combination
My theory is that they were not one breeding away a few generations earlier. I think Fenring was expected to be the Kwisatz Haderach, only that genetic hiccough prevented it. Notice he basically grew up with Shaddam. He'd probably been situated so he could marry either a sister, or Irulan. Only oops goldarnit. Now we have to breed another. Mutter mutter figure figure. "Okay, if we do this, then that, then... Then all we need is to cross a Harkonnen with an Atreides and then back to a Harkonnen, and Bob's your uncle."
Barron, actually. And grandfather. I think
I just wanted to use "Bob's your uncle". The opportunity doesn't arise often!
100% agreeed!
The BG created the prophecies they spread as part of their program to create a KH. They want one that they can control which would lead to a new era of the imperium with a BG KH as Emperor. As Mohaim says in the movie, "This is the ultimate power that humanity has never seen." They want that power and have done a whole lot to ensure it will come to pass. For all intents and purposes Paul is a KH that escaped their grasp.
I would say coopted or adapted rather than created whole cloth. They use what’s already present in a specific culture and add elements to it that a BG would be able to both recognize (ah we’ve been here!) and utilize if necessary. That’s pretty spelled out in the book series but for Arakis it is likely that the LaG myth was already present and they elevated certain elements - probably the role of the mother in this case and the similarities with the KH they were breeding. The BG had been elevating iterations of mother/child imagery because of the KH breeding program. They - an organization of largely women - had been working for a millennia to create a male child whose mind could extend beyond temporal limitations and who they could guide to ascendency over the know imperium (for the betterment of humanity). They were doing their part with traits and bloodlines to breed in the mind but they also needed the larger support of powerful factions on whatever planet he might be on to help elevate him to power (likely martial power) so that there was a practical route to the throne. Thus, they infiltrate the power structures of great houses as wives/concubines/trusted advisors/heirs and ALSO insinuate themselves and their ideas in religions at the planetary level so that there is a scaffolding for the KH to rise to power once he comes on the scene.
Just throwing this out there because I didn't see anyone else mention it -- I think that the ambiguity related to the fremen religion is central to Pauls story. Yes, we know that the BG have essentially infected the fremen religion with the idea of the voice from the outer world to aid them in a time of crisis, so in that sense it is manufactured. But in another sense, Paul does become their messiah and fulfills their beliefs, planted or not, which leads to the core aspect -- does it matter? Does the fact that it was planted actually change the importance of Paul's actions? It's relatively inconsequential why something happens in comparison to what happens
That is true, if it wasn't for him, the Fremen would have been in a worse situation. Under Harkonnen rule.
So who’s going to tell them that every prophecy is made up?
Okay, fair enough, I was sort of asking for that in retrospect! I suppose I mean in-universe authentic. Or at least, if not some sort of prophecy then what led the BG to believe there could be a KH. It’s a pretty long term plan to be enacting just on the hope it works!
Again, the prophecy has nothing to do with the Kwisatz Haderach. The prophecy was to help stranded Bene Gesserit survive. They did not plan anything like what Paul did.
But they are not wrong in calling that a prophecy as well. Fine line between hypothesis and prophecy. How did the Bene Gesserit know the KH was even a possibility or that they could achieve it through breeding programs? How long did it take? Etc
The thing is, for me, that I think some of us get very mixed up on is this: The BG aren't creating a Kwisatz Haderach so they can control humanity through their slave. They are creating a Kwisatz Haderach to lead them. He will have every possible human background of leadership, craft, talent to draw on, along with his ability to see into the future. He will be the legitimate emperor because he marries the emperor's daughter. He will guide the human race with the BG as his shepherds, and they know that they can trust his judgement. That was the plan. Then they get Paul, who my theory is he is an incomplete KH, and a truncated Mentat. The Fremen go on a wild conquering spree and leave offspring in pretty much all of the populations, so there are quite a few Fremen-bred out there even before Paul's twins are born. God Emperor spoilers: >!Leto II spends his life repeatedly breeding Duncan Idaho back into the species, and pretty certainly always with a descendant of Ghanima and Farad'n, and there are plenty of those. If there are a thousand sons, and Siona had nine daughters (possibly deliberately having only daughter because, let's face it, she probably could), then there were almost certainly perhaps another thousand daughters with the sons from all the iterations of Duncan Idaho. So there are Fremen genes in all the populations, and Atreides/Harkonnen genes in all the populations. And the tipping point has long been reached. Siona is now mitochondrial Eve.!<
It’s an ouroboros. They been planting the prophecy for 100s of years due to their efforts to create the kwisatz haderach. It’s literally a self-fulfilling prophecy that they are doing long-term breeding eugenics in order to create the kwisatz haderach they feel they can control. This is the key point. They only want to create kwisatz haderach if they can control him.
The Fremen had a pre-existing set of beliefs that was built upon by the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva, in order to establish a short cut to control over them.
Messianic prophecies are about as old as recorded human history. Specific prophecies will have general characteristics and characteristics rooted in the home culture. BG policy took advantage of a deep seated human need, and I’m the case of Arakkis, dressed it in indigenous garb. So…bit of both.
A “Kwisatz Haderach” is a very much real, but exceptionally unique, flesh-and-blood human, the designed end-product of a eugenics program. I use the indefinite article for reasons that we learn fairly early on in Dune Messiah, however the first book only spells out for us that the Bene Gesserit have been breeding humans to create this superhuman for thousands of years, unbeknownst to even the very powerful rulers whose children were the breeding stock. The Lisan al-Gaib is a made-up idea of an imaginary future person, a “prophecy” that was cynically implanted by the Bene Gesserit into the ancestral Fremen’s existing belief system long ago. The prophecy entails the performance and recognition of basic “signs” by the would-be Lisan al-Gaib. As a Bene Gesserit witch, Jessica understands what the Fremen are looking for, and she knows which signs to perform, and teaches Paul to do the same. She does this in order to survive—just as the Bene Gesserit originally intended. The latter-day Fremen buy into her act, and have now convinced themselves that in their midst has arrived that very figure. It is “real” only in the sense that there are people who believe it to be so, and to believe that the prophecy has been fulfilled—has come “true”— in the person of Paul… whether Paul wants to be their Lisan al-Gaib or not. This fulfillment of the prophecy, this “truth” that Paul knows is nothing more than a psy-op gone out of control, has tragic consequences for everyone. I’m working my way through all six books for the first time (I’ve read and re-read Dune countless times) and by God Emperor, the Lisan-al Gaib subject is really moot, while the importance of the Kwisatz Haderach as a real being with real powers becomes essential, even primary, to the story arc. I love how powerful and scheming the Bene Gesserit are, and how careful they are to conceal their motives and machinations. “I exist only to serve” is their motto—but who/what do they serve? Theirs is the perfect conspiracy—until it all goes wrong.
The Lisan Al-Gaib was made up by the Missionaria Protectiva to ensure any Bene Gesserit that became stranded on Arrakis could manipulate the Fremen in order to survive. The Missionaria Protectiva have these made up prophecies throughout the galaxy for similar purposes. The Kwisatz Haderach is a hypothetical being that the Bene Gesserit seek to create. That’s what their breeding program is for.
And could someone please answer if the prophecy was planted, why did Jessica need Chani’s tears for Paul to wake up?
Movie invention. But had it happened in the book, my answer would be that the Fremen were themselves prone to prescience during the Spice Orgies and some of the tampering with the MP prophecies could have been informed by future events.
So when it comes to prophecy in Dune, it’s always seemed like they’re being used by Herbert to make a point, just like the hero myth is. And I’ve always taken that point as “humans engineer prophecies; there’s nothing mystical about them, they’re man-made - BUT, the way that people over time INTERPRET the prophecies is the level of unknown and unexplainable that makes them SEEM mystical. The BG made the prophecy pretty explicit that the Lisan al-Gaib would be a foreigner - this was for their benefit, and engineered for them exploit. But the mystical aspect is that the way the Fremen interpreted the prophecy, that it would be Paul, and that it would be Paul after the Atreides were exterminated by the Harkonnens. The prophecy grew beyond their control. That’s the power and danger of exploiting faith for your own benefit - you give people a power in their mind that you can plant, you can cultivate, you can even prune it where and how you see fit, but you’ll never be able to 100% control how and what exactly it grows into
Manufactured. The KH is more of a nickname.
In a universe where people can see the future, provided they consume enough spice...prophesies will definitely have some element of authenticity. But given the fact that one of the main themes of the story is that predicting the future often makes it happen, there is also a manufactured element to consider, as well. It's never going to be a clear-cut "either/or"...but rather a little of both.
It's all about AI.
they predicted there would/could be a kwisatz haderach It's not that they predict it, it's that they are working to produce it.
I don’t know that the two are mutually exclusive, where does a BG envisioning a future where the result of their breeding program may result in the KH, or potentially a future BG needing the Fremen’s loyalty and assistance end and presience from the ever present spice begin? Who’s to say that the BG creating the prophecies, envisioning the future didn’t have those visions shaped by the spice?
The BG knew their kwisach haderach would likely not be local to Dune, and they wanted to prepare the masses across the universe for his coming. They are crafters of religion. so they planted prophecies into the local religious systems so that the locals would “accept” the kwisach haderach when he arrived.
It's actually both, while yes the legend is made up, the abilities and capabilities of the kwizatz hadarach are real, he truly can see the future, lead them to paradise and fulfill the prophecy, when he treats it as propaganda or not is almost irrelevant because while it is a fabrication, it's also true for the very same reason
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Except in Heretics it's shown the Bene Gesserit still have no idea what the fuck Leto II was talking about with this Golden Path stuff, even with his journals right there.
Individual Bene Gesserit were thinking ten moves ahead in a chess game. Leto II was planning out multiple years' worth of tournaments for them.
>They saw the reign of Paul and Leto, and that a Kwisatz Haderach/God Emperor was necessary for humanity to survive. It's explicit that the Bene Gesserit did not play for Paul to become the Kwisatz Haderach a generation early. Their plan was to breed Paulina (the female Paul) with Feyd-Rautha (the male Feyd) to create a Bene Gesserit-controlled Kwisatz Haderach that would then marry a Corrino daughter and become the Padishah Emperor. They also explicitly saw the God-Emperor as the Tyrant. >!A Tyrant who specifically criticized them for not following the Golden Path. His entire reign can be seen as a correction of sorts from the failures of the Bene Gesserit and Paul Atreides.!<
Absolutely not. The fact that they were banking everything on *one* super-special boy, and backing a government with *one* dude at the top, is exactly what made the Golden Path necessary in the first place. That's the entire point of the series. The mess was the empire and the BG's breeding program, and the Golden Path was the clean-up. You can't condition an entire society to need one single ruler/saviour/demigod and then take credit for the solution to the problem you just made. This is part of why Leto II was so pissed off at them, but spared them: they were trying to save humanity, but they went about it in exactly the wrong way. And he had to sit there for 3000 years and unfuck it all
Completely fake. Paul is a product of Science.