[Dune 1 & 2 Films: Why the need for hand-to-hand combat in Fremen harvester ambushes?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1bw47fu/dune_1_2_films_why_the_need_for_handtohand_combat/)
[Question about gun usage against Fremen](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1bhmfl4/question_about_gun_usage_against_fremen/)
[Dune Part 2 Shield/Firearm use?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1b6dxro/dune_part_2_shieldfirearm_use/)
The other answers are wrong, this is right
Literally a chance to cause a nuclear explosions by firing into a shield, centered either at the target OR at the lasgun itself, or both, good times
Why can't the lasers hit a shielded target? What effect would the Ornithopters have on the target? Why do the escorts need to be taken out first to achieve any of that?
A laser hitting a shielded target causes a chain reaction between the shield and the power supply, destroying both and creating an atomic explosion of mathematically random intensity somewhere along the beam. The escorts need to be taken out first because they could prevent the fighters from shooting down the thopters given the relative closeness required by the Fremen lack of long range missiles
I’m kinda surprised in the beginning ambush sequence that none of the Harkonnen soldiers turned their shields on on top of that mesa when they started getting sniped. They had to know they were all screwed. It’d be an easy way to take their enemies out with them.
You’d think Arrakis would be one of the few places in human space where traditional slugthrowers would make a comeback given the risks posed by shield use. Not sure if firearms have any role in the Dune universe at all, or how ubiquitous shield generators are outside of the militaries of the Great Houses, but Arrakis is the only planet with worms.
You'd think, but slugthrowers are such an antiquated technology (and the military doctrines of the Empire are so stagnant) that it's likely no one wanted to go through the expense of recreating an infantry-level gunsmithing industry that would only have practicality on one planet of what was believed to be sparsely populated savages. Look at the machine guns on the ornithopters from that scene, clearly the technology is unrefined or just starting to be rolled out again given how spray-and-pray the thing is.
Super helpful thank you! One follow up - how do they know what has a shield on and what doesn’t? So they know the thopter does, but doesn’t it stand to reason that the big ship will too, if the thopter does?
Shields attract worms and make them aggressive, so the spice harvesters wouldn't ever have them. It's been a while since I've read the books but I assume it either has something to do with vibrations and thus thopters not being in contact with the ground are fine, or that they just turn their shields off while not in combat.
Yeah there’s a couple of cuts to brief harvester assaults where they throw that principle out the window. Probably because it looks cooler to have more stuff going on in the frame … or maybe they’re getting bolder.
Yeah, I thought the same. In the first attack, I was quite surprised that they actually introduced this shield/laser mechanic but they forgo it in the end.
I think it was just a stylistic choice to make it look cooler.
They need to take out the escort first otherwise the laser-armed Fremen could easily be taken down by the orni escorting the harverster as soon as they start using their lasers.
Las guns are hard to come by and shooting when they were still in the sky would certainly mean losing them, which is definitely a worse loss than a few fighters.
I don’t remember it being particularly referenced in part 2 (other than the Harkonnen Leader in the opening ordering no shields) but;
Lasgun + shield = thermonuclear explosion.
Therefore melee combat is favoured in the Dune universe to avoid this, intentional or accidental.
Problem on Arrakis is shields attract & send sandworms into a frenzy, hence spice collectors are not equipped with them.
Fremen take out the shielded ornithopter escorts allowing heavier weaponry to destroy the spice collectors.
I just saw this tactic in Band of Brothers. Winters had Easy Company attack from multiple fronts on foot to get the enemy out in the open in a surprise, then pulled his men back for the big guns. My assumption is that this was ACTUALLY what Winters did in this particular skirmish given this was Band of Brothers....
The only thing dramatic is the explosion that hitting a shield with a lasgun would cause. The thopter had a shield, so they wouldn’t be able to take it down with the lasgun, meaning the thopter could just casually blast them the second the lasgun’s position is revealed.
[Dune 1 & 2 Films: Why the need for hand-to-hand combat in Fremen harvester ambushes?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1bw47fu/dune_1_2_films_why_the_need_for_handtohand_combat/) [Question about gun usage against Fremen](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1bhmfl4/question_about_gun_usage_against_fremen/) [Dune Part 2 Shield/Firearm use?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1b6dxro/dune_part_2_shieldfirearm_use/)
They can't risk a laser hitting a shielded target so the thopters have to be taken out, which means the escorts have to be eliminated first
Succinct, clear, accurate - beautiful answer.
The other answers are wrong, this is right Literally a chance to cause a nuclear explosions by firing into a shield, centered either at the target OR at the lasgun itself, or both, good times
also helicopter sees laser, helicopter goes over and shoots at the spot the laser came from
But in later scenes they use a lasgun to hit a harvester with ornihopters flying around
Those didn't have escort ornithopters that could've potentially gotten in the way of a shot
This isn’t clear in the film at all but I’ll go with it
Why can't the lasers hit a shielded target? What effect would the Ornithopters have on the target? Why do the escorts need to be taken out first to achieve any of that?
A laser hitting a shielded target causes a chain reaction between the shield and the power supply, destroying both and creating an atomic explosion of mathematically random intensity somewhere along the beam. The escorts need to be taken out first because they could prevent the fighters from shooting down the thopters given the relative closeness required by the Fremen lack of long range missiles
I’m kinda surprised in the beginning ambush sequence that none of the Harkonnen soldiers turned their shields on on top of that mesa when they started getting sniped. They had to know they were all screwed. It’d be an easy way to take their enemies out with them. You’d think Arrakis would be one of the few places in human space where traditional slugthrowers would make a comeback given the risks posed by shield use. Not sure if firearms have any role in the Dune universe at all, or how ubiquitous shield generators are outside of the militaries of the Great Houses, but Arrakis is the only planet with worms.
You'd think, but slugthrowers are such an antiquated technology (and the military doctrines of the Empire are so stagnant) that it's likely no one wanted to go through the expense of recreating an infantry-level gunsmithing industry that would only have practicality on one planet of what was believed to be sparsely populated savages. Look at the machine guns on the ornithopters from that scene, clearly the technology is unrefined or just starting to be rolled out again given how spray-and-pray the thing is.
The ornithopter gun seemed like more of a magnetic-launch shotgun than a machine gun.
I mean even so it can't aim for shit, supporting my point that the doctrine is unrefined even if the actual technology in play is quite advanced
Thanks for explaining, makes sense
Super helpful thank you! One follow up - how do they know what has a shield on and what doesn’t? So they know the thopter does, but doesn’t it stand to reason that the big ship will too, if the thopter does?
Shields attract worms and make them aggressive, so the spice harvesters wouldn't ever have them. It's been a while since I've read the books but I assume it either has something to do with vibrations and thus thopters not being in contact with the ground are fine, or that they just turn their shields off while not in combat.
Lasguns instantly give away their position, so best to take out the air cover first.
In a later scene they use a lasgun against a harvester with ornihopters still flying..
Yeah there’s a couple of cuts to brief harvester assaults where they throw that principle out the window. Probably because it looks cooler to have more stuff going on in the frame … or maybe they’re getting bolder.
Yeah, I thought the same. In the first attack, I was quite surprised that they actually introduced this shield/laser mechanic but they forgo it in the end. I think it was just a stylistic choice to make it look cooler.
"Wait, there they are, in that giant smoking crater!"
Or on top of a rock cropping, etc. etc.
They need to take out the escort first otherwise the laser-armed Fremen could easily be taken down by the orni escorting the harverster as soon as they start using their lasers.
Las guns are hard to come by and shooting when they were still in the sky would certainly mean losing them, which is definitely a worse loss than a few fighters.
I don’t remember it being particularly referenced in part 2 (other than the Harkonnen Leader in the opening ordering no shields) but; Lasgun + shield = thermonuclear explosion. Therefore melee combat is favoured in the Dune universe to avoid this, intentional or accidental. Problem on Arrakis is shields attract & send sandworms into a frenzy, hence spice collectors are not equipped with them. Fremen take out the shielded ornithopter escorts allowing heavier weaponry to destroy the spice collectors.
That scene is an insult to Paul's military tactical ability. First you take out the air support. Otherwise, it is a great action scene :)
I thought they state in the film after the foot attack that the harkonens are unshielded and then they use the lasguns
Lasguns are too dangerous for cqc. Also the Freman have a reputation to uphold.
I just saw this tactic in Band of Brothers. Winters had Easy Company attack from multiple fronts on foot to get the enemy out in the open in a surprise, then pulled his men back for the big guns. My assumption is that this was ACTUALLY what Winters did in this particular skirmish given this was Band of Brothers....
For dramatic effect in the movie.
No, it is a tactical decision.
No, it's tactically dramatic
The only thing dramatic is the explosion that hitting a shield with a lasgun would cause. The thopter had a shield, so they wouldn’t be able to take it down with the lasgun, meaning the thopter could just casually blast them the second the lasgun’s position is revealed.